[Fiend]

Worthy of it's own topic I think...

I still don't get this "line" thing though. It's a nice enough looking feature but the climbing looks awkward and, at best, basic. For me, the best problems are the ones where the movement is an amazing experience. Doesn't matter if it looks like four crimps on a 45 degree wall or indeed the worst sack of shit in the world.

The experience of moving over a piece of rock (or even wood and plastic) that one thought was not possible but was somehow achieved can be a beautiful thing whether the "line" is good or not.

Maybe it's just me (and Chris Craggs) but I don't just want to climb up things cos they're there. I'm not a mountaineer and I don't want to conquer great features. I just want the feeling of crushing a crimp to stomach level and effortlessly reaching for the next one as my body instinctively cuts my feet loose and reattaches them to the holds or hold or realises there's no need without a conscious thought process troubling my brain.

That's what climbing's about for me. Not sure if that makes any sense mind and I'm certainly nowhere near achieving my wish at the moment!

Referring to this line:

I think this is a good point and a good issue to discuss.

With reference to that particular problem -

Awkward? It looks awkward because it's nails for me, someone better could make it look a lot smoother.

Basic? I'm not sure it's any more basic than your 4 crimps on a 45' wall . It wasn't basic for me, there was a lot of subtlety in finding the right non-holds and learning what to do with my limbs.

BUT....I agree the climbing wasn't nearly as good as the line. I enjoyed doing the much easier slabbier side a lot more - although that might have been a function of it being easier and thus much less of a desperate scrabble.

Nevertheless for me, lines are important. And no it's not about the mountaineering experience (f_ck that bollox!), this was in a grotty quarry and still a great line. I like great climbing but I also like to follow great bits of rock - which might well be 4 crimps up a 45' wall if the rock is a nice texture and colour... I happen to like aretes and other pure features a lot, but I think beautiful lines can come in all sorts of forms, apart from Peak Limestone and the Cave of course (does the latter actually have any lines?). E.g. I think the Ace is a great line for it's purity....OTOH I think T-Crack is an awful impure line with no aesthetic merit....Jerry's Traverse is a great line but I'm not convinced about the climbing....Dumby is ugly as f_ck but the climbing can be fascinating. Hmmm.

I suppose there comes a point when the quality of a line can't compensate for the non-quality of climbing but it has to be pretty ming for that to happen. I guess the thing is, the line is an instant draw, it's attractive straight away, while the beauty of the climbing takes longer to discover...

[tomtom]

I'm half way between the two points. I ultimately enjouy the movement of the problem and overcoming the challenge if doing it. But the shape or beauty of a line can be what motivates me or gets me intially psyched...

[BB]

pink anasazis, pain au chocolat.

[bigphil]

Hmmm.  What makes for a good climb for me can sometimes be the line at time but more often than not it is the moves and climbing.  I don't know about anyone else but whilst the start of that problem looked good the ending looked somehow unsatisfactory and I don't think that it would remain a memorable ascent for me based on the line alone.

[Sloper]

The line's the thing.

[andy_e]

Sometimes you get great moves on a rubbish looking bit of rock (i.e. most of lancashire) and sometimes you get crap moves on a good line (i.e. flying arete) but the best problems have fantastic moves on a fantastic line. These are the best problems. Too many to even pick out a good example! I love doing a hard move as much as I love doing a good line, I'm not fussy!

[Mike Lee]

Hi Fiend,

Good to hear you got up the problem! I always think that what matters in climbing is the relationships you develop with the things you climb. So what makes a good problem is one which you personally have had a good time climbing.

Sorry you had a tough time finding info about the problem... the obtuse and impenetrable Scottish bouldering scene is pretty bad, but getting better I think.

P.S. I think monkey spanking is great, moves and line, and if it was in the peak....

[tomtom]

Sometimes you get great moves on a rubbish looking bit of rock (i.e. most of lancashire) and sometimes you get crap moves on a good line (i.e. flying arete) but the best problems have fantastic moves on a fantastic line. These are the best problems. Too many to even pick out a good example! I love doing a hard move as much as I love doing a good line, I'm not fussy!

Now flying arete is a great line and great moves 

[Fiend]

pink anasazis, pain au chocolat.

Yeah, well, I tried to throw a bit of a curveball in there with the muffins, spice it up a bit ya know....

[Fiend]

I don't know about anyone else but whilst the start of that problem looked good the ending looked somehow unsatisfactory and I don't think that it would remain a memorable ascent for me based on the line alone.

Again could be my (lack of) style. The easy finish after getting the left arete was my favourite bit! That in some ways was when the quality of the moves made best use of the quality of the features...

I always think that what matters in climbing is the relationships you develop with the things you climb. So what makes a good problem is one which you personally have had a good time climbing.

Deep, man. I tihink that's a good point, that it is all fairly subjective....the quality of the experience can be down to the inspiring line (if that's your preference) or the inspiring climbing (if that's your preference). Or, as andi says, ideally both.

[andy_e]

I think, as Jasper said, that movement is the most important aspect. Movement is something that links all of my hobbies- the feeling of movement of polyurethane on concrete, taking in the bumps with bent knees, flying through the air with a massive ollie, or breezing over snow with a faint sound of crunching the powder and the feel of the edge digging in as you carve a massive S over fresh unharmed snow all the way down the mountain, or the shapes contorted into by your body as you pull yourself smoothly and effortlessly as possible over the rock. This is why I  think pair in a cubicle is one of the best problems around- hard, unusual, slopey, grippy and fun.

[Bonjoy]

Only a very unbalanced person enjoys climbing ONLY for its visual aesthetic or ONLY its feeling of movement.
The very best problems look amazing and climb as good as the look. Sometimes moves are so good that even a very tight, eliminate, ugly problem in an unpleasant setting can be enjoyable at a certain level. Likewise great lines sometimes give log climbing but the experience can still be good because the line inspired you and it felt good to have climbed the feature.
What constitutes a visually appealing line can be many things to many climbers. Four crimps up a blank overhanging face IS a very appealing line to many climbers because they see the rock and imagine the moves.
No offence to the OP, but to my mind it’s a simplistic question with a fairly dull and obvious answer (as outlined above).

[Jaspersharpe]

Oh dear. My pissed up ramblings weren't supposed to merit a thread of their own. 

Only a very unbalanced person enjoys climbing ONLY for its visual aesthetic or ONLY its feeling of movement.

I was certainly unbalanced when I wrote that. 

[slackline]

Only a very unbalanced person enjoys climbing ONLY for its visual aesthetic or ONLY its feeling of movement.

  There is no black and white, just...

[Fiend]

I was certainly unbalanced when I wrote that. 

LOL, well, I think it can be quite interesting if someone has a polarised view on something like this, so you could just pretend you do .

I expect many people tend a bit one way or the other.

[The Sausage]

I agree with Bonjoy. As usual.
However, I have something to add.
I think as an 'experienced' climber, when you see as a line does not have to be a soaring arete or corner. You often see a set of holds and you can just tell it will climb well. Sean's at Crag X for example, or Rockatrocity Beurre Marga, or L'Abbe Resina, Big Boss, The Egg (Squamish or Midnight Lightening.

When you see a soaring line that you know will climb well just by looking at it, say Crescent Arete, Lager Lager Lager, Brad Pit, Ben's groove, Appartenence, Sole Power, Supernova or any of the big grit aretes, that just adds to the appeal. But I think that's because the line broadcats how amazing the climbing is going to be.

[priscilla wimbush]

The line is like a book cover - the moves are the story.
The cover / line might or might not be appealing, enticing, motivating for you to want to delve deeper.
The moves / story are what you'll find once you've opened that book up.

I like the idea that some of my favourite moves are never tried by the masses because they're hidden behind lines that need some imagination. Makes them more personal.

Lines can affect how you climb something though, so you could argue a link in qualities.

[Fiend]

I think as an 'experienced' climber, when you see as a line does not have to be a soaring arete or corner. You often see a set of holds and you can just tell it will climb well. Sean's at Crag X for example, or Rockatrocity Beurre Marga, or L'Abbe Resina, Big Boss, The Egg (Squamish or Midnight Lightening.

Good point. I think as you become more familiar with climbing you can pick out the beauty of it more easily.

The line is like a book cover - the moves are the story.
The cover / line might or might not be appealing, enticing, motivating for you to want to delve deeper.
The moves / story are what you'll find once you've opened that book up.

Interesting! I've found the old adage "you can't judge a book blah blah" to be only partly true....in my reading experience, the cover does give some indication obviously not totally accurate but often the covers are chosen to portray the style of story and can often indicate whether it will appeal to a particular reader. Just like a line will give some indication as to the style of climb and how it will appeal to a particular climber.

Lines can affect how you climb something though, so you could argue a link in qualities.

Indeed. Perhaps the best climbs are the ones where the line promises exactly what the climb delivers (not always the case, in both ways).