[Johnny Brown]

Its worth having a basic grasp of Latin if you plan to work in Dixons too.

I learnt Latin for, I think, five years. Can't really remember any. But then my French isn't much better and I did that for ten? Latin is potentially useful if you're going to be a naturalist/ botanist, though mainly from a lack of intimidation angle, the grammar won't be any use. Though having said that, Darwin went to the same school, where pretty much the only subjects at the time were Latin and Greek, and he didn't think them much use. I guess it might have enabled him to read the original text of Newton's Principia and the like.

[Houdini]

Brits are amongst the worst in the world for learning other languages.  Even American's trounce us in language skills.  I wonder if it's the tedium of learning a language that can never be spoken in the real world that kills the enthusiasm to pull one's finger out w/ living languages?  Latin is an utter waste of time to anyone but a scholar of dead languages etc..

Your childrens' brain can be developed better by getting them to study something they can use.  Let's face it, those in the legal trades do not speak Latin per se* but simply use traditional phrases in the course of their work. 

*see I've no idea what per se means in Latin but I know exactly what it means in English & how to use it.  We've a child on the way, it will be spoken to in English and German from day one.

[mrjonathanr]

Even Americans trounce us in language skills.  I wonder if it's the tedium of learning a language that can never be spoken in the real world that kills the enthusiasm to pull one's finger out w/ living languages?  Latin is an utter waste of time to anyone but a scholar of dead languages etc..

Are these your views or are you mocking the introverted view of the world which supposes any Johnny-Foreigner worth communicating with will have a decent command of English and will altruistically use it to communicate with us without taking the slightest advantage of the fact that we will only understand what we are permitted/enabled to understand? (It's widely under-reported that international business ethics have mostly adopted this model of good practice, luckily for us... )
I'm a little confused about living languages never being of use in the real world.... Is that just for those of us with a time-share caravan in Rhyll or a typo?
As regards 'dead' languages, I couldn't agree more. What a waste of intellectual effort - not to mention money (which might better be spent on back-issues of the Daily Mail) - all those silly museums and Archaeology (and while I think on -History) departments in universities and other establishments so patently are..!
Maybe one day a test could be devised to identify future productive occupations for young children to train for so as to eliminate all the unnecessary expenditure of effort engendered by attempting to deliver a wide-ranging and stimulating education unnecessarily focussed on developing thinking skills and intellectual curiosity. And as for scholars of Romance languages - I refer you to the first paragraph.
Or is all this just reductio ad absurdum ?

[Houdini]

I've no idea what you're talking about.

[mrjonathanr]

Your post was unclear.
Are you saying that language-learning is dull, or just that latin as no now longer spoken is a waste of time?
If the latter, then why bother with anything now out-dated?

[slackline]

We've a child on the way, it will be spoken to in English and German from day one.

Congratulations hOUD!!! 

Even Americans trounce us in language skills.  I wonder if it's the tedium of learning a language that can never be spoken in the real world that kills the enthusiasm to pull one's finger out w/ living languages?  Latin is an utter waste of time to anyone but a scholar of dead languages etc..

Are these your views or are you mocking the introverted view of the world which supposes any Johnny-Foreigner worth communicating with will have a decent command of English and will altruistically use it to communicate with us without taking the slightest advantage of the fact that we will only understand what we are permitted/enabled to understand? (It's widely under-reported that international business ethics have mostly adopted this model of good practice, luckily for us... )

It may well be introverted, but I think thats the point being made (at least how I read it).

[SA Chris]

Even American's trounce us in language skills

How do arrive at this point? Many Americans I have met struggle to even undertand an accent, let alone another language. The only exceptions I have come across live in the SW and almost all have learned Spanish as a second language.

[SA Chris]

We've a child on the way, it will be spoken to in English and German from day one.

Congratulations.

[Houdini]

Many Americans I have met struggle to even understand an accent, let alone another language. The only exceptions I have come across live in the SW and almost all have learned Spanish as a second language.

This is my experience & what I based my point on, though not restricted to just those that live in the SW.  As far I can tell, the only evidence of genuine non-monoglotism in the UK is Wales (& I'm not going anywhere near that one thanks).

Are you saying that language-learning is dull

No, I said that learning Latin is an unnecessary intellectual exercise for anyone other than a scholar.  We only have so much room inside our heads, why not fill that w/ useable language skills that would really help an individual spread it's wings in a tangible way?  Go find a teacher of foreign languages in Britain and get them to riff on the subject for a while.  I've got better things to do than point out the obviousness of English as a global business language & it's relationship to the dwindling interest in teaching foreign languages as a priority in UK schools, as opposed to subjects perceived as more vocational: computer studies etc.., of which there is now a surfeit of.  If my secondary school had taken the decision to teach me German as well as French as a youth my ability to earn/survive in Germany (something I'm doing, I live in Hamburg) would be greatly increased; it is not the case that every Tom, Dick & Karl-Heinz speaks English, they do not.

My point is and always will be it's better to teach your child Swedish or Norwegian than Latin as both live beyond the pages of taxonomy atlases et al and in this day and age has as much relevance in this modern world (to a non-scholar) as teaching Alchemy.  Time passed it by.

Yes I am aware of the irony of my un-ironic usage of et al in a sentence about the redundancy of Latin.

[mrjonathanr]

Congrats on the baby.
From what you've said you do value language skills - English and German- but my point wasn't really a go at you, more sparked by curiosity about the point you were making. In rather plainer English, we suffer in England from a considerable hang-up about learning others' languages. It's only latterly that we've given up on systematically trying to eradicate Welsh FFS.
There seems a general belief that it doesn't really matter, Mohammed will come to the mountain and learn our tongue. Well he might, but the facts don't really support this. The majority of the world's population do not and cannot speak English, and we're not just talking the deprived and uneducated here.
Business conducted through others' language skills puts you at a considerable disadvantage in an inherently competitive activity. In other words we risk losing out and/or getting shafted.
Alot of kids (and adults) don't see the relevance of a foreign language. This only really applies if you don't intend to use your passport (USA/Aus/NZ/RSA excepted). Not speaking a language reduces the richness of the experience or even eliminates it altogether as some actively avoid holidaying where they have communication difficulties.
Language learning doesn't have to be dull. On the contrary it should be one of the most fun subjects of study: it's practical, people focussed and one where you need to step out of your comfort zone and get stuck in. In a classsroom it is necessarily artificial, but not so much more removed than say physics or maths - only perhaps more obviously so as clearly Room 32 etc is not in Paris/Madrid/Shanghai etc. But lab 3 isn't in CERN either when you stop to think about it.
If language learning can be fun , it's application is manytimes more so and there's seems to be a general difficulty grasping this. As climbers many of us will have some expoerience of what a blast travel/other cultures/new places and friends can really be.
As far as Latin is concerned, I'd suggest a better understanding of terms used by the older professions largely irrelevant, possibly excepting the Church. These terms are essentially jargon ie used with a very specific meaning which the student will pick up in training - it's not necessary to learn the language fully for this. It is enormously valuable for anyone with a serious interest in Romance language: the clue is in the word ROMANce. They are all mutations of the common Latin spoken in those countries as recently as 1500 years ago. The massive difference is the disintegration of the grammar due to changes in the pronunciation of the words over centuries rendering the word-endings effectively unclear.
The idea which equates 'dead' with 'pointless'ignores some basic facts. Our own language contains a large Latin component, our culture and cultural ideas derives in significant part from the Romans, ditto alot of European language and culture and the past is no worthless area of study in its own right: otherwise we may as well bin the study of History, Archaeology and so on. To know whop you are it helps to know where you've come from.
Moreover study for its own sake is valuable and rewarding, it doesn't have to meet some standard of utility to be worthwhile.
One 'benefit' of the study of Latin is often identified as intellectual rigour because of the logical structure of its grammar. While tis may be true it does highlight one of the big barriers to language learning in general: it's demanding and many people find this off-putting. BUt if we were all easily discouraged we'd never experience the rewards of any achievement. Or ever boulder beyond about font 5+, right?

[soapy]

We've a child on the way..

i don't know whether to congratulate you or the milkman; or run away screaming "the anti-christ is imminent!"




fuckit, i'll do all three

[mrjonathanr]

My point is and always will be it's better to teach your child Swedish or Norwegian than Latin as both live beyond the pages of taxonomy atlases et al and in this day and age has as much relevance in this modern world (to a non-scholar) as teaching Alchemy.  Time passed it by.

Our posts seem to have been simultaneous which makes my comments look like I'm ignoring yours. To respond to your points:
The traditional view that you 'have to' learn traditional languages is unhelpful but does have something to do with availability of teachers of  non-traditional languages and funding. As regards Nordic (or other) langauges I'd wholeheartedly agree, but think you're underestimating the value of Latin today. It remains however mostly taught as a remnant of the 'classical education' which has a limited relevance to today's students: the world is changing too fast. Many school students will be employed in roles that haven't yet been thought of, let alone prepared for.
I'd like students to choose whatever language/s they'd most like to learn: forcing study qown the throat is unpleasant and off-putting.
The problem is.. where do we get the money from for this?

[Houdini]

^ Stop fighting wars that don't exist?  By abandoning our nuclear arsenal?  Cancelling Nicolas Soames' luncheon vouchers?  There's a few billion I've saved you.

[SA Chris]

Many Americans I have met struggle to even understand an accent, let alone another language. The only exceptions I have come across live in the SW and almost all have learned Spanish as a second language.

This is my experience & what I based my point on, though not restricted to just those that live in the SW.  As far I can tell, the only evidence of genuine non-monoglotism in the UK is Wales (& I'm not going anywhere near that one thanks).

Most people I know have just about passable French, and a few are very proficient at it. A few are capable in german as well. My own abilties are limited to fluent Afrikaans (which is pretty pointless as most Dutch speak excellent English, but provides them with much amusement), and halting German and French. Plus a dozen or so Zulu words.

This far exceeds my experience of meeting dozens of Americans in my time there, of whom about 3 or 4 had passable Spanish.

[mrjonathanr]

^ Stop fighting wars that don't exist?  By abandoning our nuclear arsenal?  Cancelling Nicolas Soames' luncheon vouchers?  There's a few billion I've saved you.

Cool. When do my pay rise and time off for (free) professional development courses kick in?

[mrjonathanr]

Most people I know have just about passable French, and a few are very proficient at it. A few are capable in german as well. My own abilties are limited to fluent Afrikaans (which is pretty pointless as most Dutch speak excellent English, but provides them with much amusement), and halting German and French. Plus a dozen or so Zulu words.

This far exceeds my experience of meeting dozens of Americans in my time there, of whom about 3 or 4 had passable Spanish.

That would tend to be the anglo-saxon way - the Germans seem to have a better idea. Hmm, Spanish - don't forget the Yanks need to give instructions to the gardener.

[Houdini]

Cool. When do my pay rise and time off for (free) professional development courses kick in?

Never.  You'd been had, & soon you will die   Britain is rich enough.

[BB]

Plus a dozen or so Zulu words.

but there's bloody thousands of them.

[SA Chris]

throwing bloody arrows at me.