UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Andy Harris on September 08, 2008, 08:17:02 pm
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Myself and a few others were having a session on Mecca yesterday and to my horror the wobbly bit in the left hand crimp 2 moves up from the initial jugs is no longer. This now makes for a significantly easier move. Whether this fell out or was pushed in my slightly synical view of the modern climber wanting everything as easy as it can possibly be by means fair or foul I am not sure.
Basically the piece is no longer there and I wonder whether it should be replaced by a blob of sika? Does it alter the grade? Not sure but it certainly makes the 1st section to the jug a lot easier (by say half a grade).
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Thanks for reporting this Andy.
It has been on the cards for some time now, that bit of the hold has been wobbling ever since I have been trying it (which is quite a long time! lol). I reckon we should let Zippy know, if anyone would know what to do it would be him. Paul Reeve recently said he would fix it soon. i would vote for a bit of sika to be put in the back of the crimp to make it uniformly small again. It would be a tragedy if the route were to be made easier than the benchmark 8b+ it was until recently.
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That hold is already about 1/3 bigger than it used to be after it got stuck back on.
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yes I heard that apparently sometime in the 90's John Hart glued it back on in such a way that it became a bigger hold than before
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yes I heard that apparently sometime in the 90's John Hart glued it back on in such a way that it became a bigger hold than before
...obviously after it fell off naturally
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It got glued back on by John about 3 years ago.
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I was climbing with Andy when this was noticed and it is indeed of serious concern. I agree with Ted when he says the bit of rock at the back of the hold has been wobbling for some time now although when i last looked it i was certainly under the impression it would require some force to remove it.
The difference is that the holds turns from being a 3 finger open/half crimp to a full four finger closed crimp so it has improved dramatically.
If anyone does have the piece, the ideal option would be to try and sika it back in. Failing that a blob of sika to restore the hold back to size would be the next appropriate option.
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I agree with John and Ted that the hold should somehow be restored. John Hart put it back on using Sikka in 2004 and it was always a bit more posative as a result after that. I dont think it reduced the overall grade of the route though and we all thought john had done as good a job as possible in restoring it. I would vote for some very carefully placed sikka so as to not make the hold completely plastic as unfortunately I did when I bolted up a right hand finish to Mecca at about the same time and created a horrible plastiic hold out to the right of the Mecca sloper. Unfortunately did something rather similar on Monsterocity also!!
I wonder if Bonjoy is the man with the skills and craftmanship for the task. We want to ensure The UKs best route stays that way!!
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I'm no master craftsman but do have have a pretty good recollection of the hold and some glue. Not sure when I'll next get a chance though. If it is an urgent issue for someone, they can always arrange to borrow my resin gun.
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For what it's worth I also agree that the hold should be restored to it's previous state.
Before launching into a full resin job it would be worth checking with the usual suspects whether they have the loose piece (I'm thinking Smitton, Sharples, Reeve etc). Relacing this would help restore it to it's previous state.
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It's well known that I don't like limestone and that i'm far too weak to even contemplate pulling onto the starting holds but having said that I find the suggestion that this natural (I see no suggestion of chipping) erosion be 'repaired' rather worrying.
Holds fall off routes all the time making the routes harder and easier in seemingly equal measures and I don't see this as a problem. What's wrong with Mecca losing half a grade, shirley it can't all be about the number?
What would people's reaction be to suggestions that a blob of sika was stuck onto Beau Geste, or some pebbles were glued back on name slab to make them easier than they had become?
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What's wrong with Mecca losing half a grade, shirley it can't all be about the number?
What blooming planet are you on Sloper?? Or has someone spiked your cigar??
Not about the grade, what bolleaux...
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What would people's reaction be to suggestions that a blob of sika was stuck onto Beau Geste, or some pebbles were glued back on name slab to make them easier than they had become?
The point is that the route doesn't become easier. It's not about the grade, it's about the difficulty of the route, and yes, there is a subtle, although crucial, difference. If beau geste suddenly grew a couple of bomber wire placements, it would probably still be a great E5 called Beau Geste, but it wouldn't be Beau Geste as we know it, and as we aspire to climb it.
From a peronal point of view, I'm planning a (doubtlessly protracted) seige on Mecca next year, and don't want to climb some cheapened version of a such a classic.
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Half The Tor is held together with sika anyway Sloper. It's not comparable, as you well know.
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Sika/resin is an integral part of the climbing on hard limestone in the Peak and to a lesser extent Yorkshire. Without it a large proportion of the routes would be totally different, usually much less pleasant, in many cases impossible and prone to crucial hold loss, basically it would have half as many worthwhile >8a routes. This is not gritstone it is bolted semi-choss!
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Classic bolted semi choss no less!
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Steady on! No need to get carried away...
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It's one to decide my those operating at that level.
I dont redpoint anymore, if i did and Mecca was my project I'd be damn pissed if it dropped a grade.
However......
those holds on that section have gone through various incarnations over the years, if it's more positive now (and over a decade of recollection speaking now) I though it was fairly OK - at least at some point... you could just wait for it to snap / shear etc...
why ??
well, (again I'm aware of being an armchair pundit here... sorry) are we going to make a concensus statement that all good peak lime will be fixed up (which as we can see is an ongoing affair) to it's original state?
if so, that's fine... but what would perhaps not be ideal is to see the benchmark 8b+ stamina / endurance route of the peak being a special case and kept artifically hard just to keep the great route that it is at a certain grade to give us all a roadside 8b+ 30 mins from sheffield
just a thought...
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It's not just one route though is it? Routes / problems are routinely repaired as Bonjoy says. It has to be done otherwise lots of stuff would become unclimbable or shit or both (stand down JB!).
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So what you're saying is it's OK if routes become harder but not OK if they become easier? Ie pocket on Revelations, the crimpy thing on Make it Funky, side pull on Superman? After all it's not an indoor wall where if a hold breaks it can be replaced with an identical one! Guess we all just to have to live with it and accept that these routes go through cycles of getting easier and harder - it's no big deal - just enjoy the route and get it climbed!
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To be fair Mecca is a long way from the state it was on the FA. I'm told the horn used to be a jug you could shake out on for starters. That said, it has been in roughly its present state for long enough for this to be considered the definative route, certainly this is how most people have climbed it, including all the ascents of the three extensions.
Yes sport climbing is an arcane business full of strange traditions and practices which may be unfathomable to those not involved. Thankfully to those involved it all makes perfect sense.
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If the hold is not repaired will it break again? I'm all for backing up holds and sticking them on again when they come off, but if this doesn't change the grade of the route does it matter?
Saying that if I was trying to work it then I'd be well pissed off if this happened. Like Jon said it's up to the people who have already redpointed to make a decision
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The ideal situation is that first ascentionist back up potentially loose holds before the FA, even if this sometimes means taking them off and gluing them back on, if done properly this gives a near invisible repair and ensures the route won’t start evolving after a few ascents.
Other than that I think it’s better to repair routes regardless of whether the change makes the route easier or harder. For example the lost hold on Eugenics has made the route harder and ten times more unpleasant. So unpleasant that even though folks have done the moves nobody can be arsed to reclimb the route. Had the hold been glued back straight away we’d have another decent 8a+ to play on at Rubicon. Instead we have a dusty unused line of bolts.
The last thing you want if Mecca is your hardest route (and for many ascentionists it is) is for someone who did it before the breakage to say “Ah but it was much harder when I did it” or if you did it before, for someone going on it today, unaware of the history to say “I don’t know why that start took you so long, it’s piss”.
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I'm with Travs
Again with the prefix that it's not my sport anymore... a bit of common sense / what happens on most other rock types in the UK / having climbed for a fair bit would say IMO
- if it gets a bit harder / easier then fair go... [very common in the Peak we all agree] however if hold loss / new shapes renders the route many grades harder or easier a case by case discussion would be the best way to decide the route's fate. As is probably not happening here, or is it?? has the grade truly changed a lot?
Also, unlike many peak sport routes it's the burn that gets you on the link.... one slightly easier move near the start wont alter the hell of the upper groove!
You dont need to have redpointed the route to have something to say on the matter. (For what it's worth i fell off the top of the groove for a couple of weeks and got pissed off with the shiny slippy nightmare I was having and I cut my losses)
But I dont see how that helps, if you know about peak rock, the history and such like then one can raise a voice on the matter. After all, one of my kids is more likely to do Mecca than me these days!
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I think you've misunderstood me Bonjoy. I'm not against gluing holds back on again, infact I'm all for it. All I'm saying is that once the gluing has taken place you just have to live with it and gluing should only take place where required. A bit of loose rock falling out of a hold does not warrant gluing unless the resultant hold is weakened. In terms of people saying I dont know why ...... it's piss, they would say these things anyway. Half the climbing fraternity want to appear better than the next man and how better to achieve this by belittling his achievements! So unless it's fallen off or is definitely weak - don't glue it!!!!!
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- if it gets a bit harder / easier then fair go... [very common in the Peak we all agree] however if hold loss / new shapes renders the route many grades harder or easier a case by case discussion would be the best way to decide the route's fate. As is probably not happening here, or is it?? has the grade truly changed a lot?
Regardless of the grade, something like this could alter the route entirely. My view of Mecca is that it's one of the most sustained routes i've even been on if one move gets slightly easier then it takes away from that and alters the charachter of the route.
Was the demise of the hold natural?
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I think you've misunderstood me Bonjoy. I'm not against gluing holds back on again, infact I'm all for it. All I'm saying is that once the gluing has taken place you just have to live with it and gluing should only take place where required. A bit of loose rock falling out of a hold does not warrant gluing unless the resultant hold is weakened. In terms of people saying I dont know why ...... it's piss, they would say these things anyway. Half the climbing fraternity want to appear better than the next man and how better to achieve this by belittling his achievements! So unless it's fallen off or is definitely weak - don't glue it!!!!!
:agree:
well put, that's what I was trying to say
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Regardless of the grade, something like this could alter the route entirely. My view of Mecca is that it's one of the most sustained routes i've even been on if one move gets slightly easier then it takes away from that and alters the charachter of the route.
I couldn't agree more. If a move is made even slightly easier lower down it will have a massive effect when fighting up the groove later on as the nature of the climbing is cumulative. To gain the base of the groove and make the clip used to be 8b in its own right up until last week. If it is only 8a+ now then this will make a big difference. This is why it is so critical that any repair is done in the right way. The fact that it might still be 8b+ but a soft one is a lame reason for not doing the repair. The route should be preserved as the testpiece it has been since 1988 and not some gradebag 8b+.
Was the demise of the hold natural?
I don't know for sure but presume so. I guess the most likely scenario is that a climber was cranking on the crimp and the piece exploded out.
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To clarify, I’m not for re-gluing every little bit of rock that falls off routes. Given how much comes off this is totally impractical anyway. But I am for the case by case basis thing, with a general principal of trying to preserve quality routes as quality routes.
Going on the case by case thing Mecca is very much a special case as it is the upper limit (or just above the upper limit in my case) of a lot of hard working sport climbers in the UK. A tiny change, even if it make no overall grade shift is a big deal. Mecca is THE benchmark testpiece. For some it’s their life’s work.
By fixing the hold you would be preserving the route in the state that climbers want it. At the cost of making a pretty artificial hold (the whole hold has been off an on again at least once) on a fairly artificial route a little bit more artificial. Mecca is not about climbing an aesthetic natural feature (although it has incidental value as such), it’s about climbing a hard, historically significant testpiece.
Fatdoc/travs – I see what you're saying, but what do you think you're preserving by leaving it unfixed?
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Again you have me all wrong Bonjoy. It's got absolutely nothing to do with preservation - it's about living with the evolution of the route. If you think Mecca is a test piece what about 'Comes the Dervish'. The gear on this used to be pretty sparse but is now totally bomber, following the logic of the people on this thread we shoud go and sicker up the crack to return to RP and wire placements!! Returning to Mecca, if you're talking about retaining it's nature from 1998 does this mean we are going to stick on all the little foot holds that have fallen off moving to the groove and are we going to roughen up the rock in the groove with some sort of acid? The loss of the piece of rock is only one small step in the routes evolution, just accept it and climb it in it's present state.
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Again you have me all wrong Bonjoy. It's got absolutely nothing to do with preservation - it's about living with the evolution of the route. If you think Mecca is a test piece what about 'Comes the Dervish'. The gear on this used to be pretty sparse but is now totally bomber, following the logic of the people on this thread we shoud go and sicker up the crack to return to RP and wire placements!! Returning to Mecca, if you're talking about retaining it's nature from 1998 does this mean we are going to stick on all the little foot holds that have fallen off moving to the groove and are we going to roughen up the rock in the groove with some sort of acid? The loss of the piece of rock is only one small step in the routes evolution, just accept it and climb it in it's present state.
:agree:
I doubt I'll ever agree with anyone 3 times in row on a forum again but this kinda sums it up for me
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Ok so it is not to preserve anything, we just ought to live with routes falling apart. Why? Who or what benefits from this self sacrifice?
Firstly Comes the Dervish would take more than half a teaspoon of resin to restore the crack to its original width. Therefore it’s not viable to fix, so not relevant to the discussion IMO. If you could restore it to its original state with one squirt of a glue-gun I might say go for it.
Secondly CtD is not a hard sport route. I would probably be in favour of fixing a small breakage on the not to distant Very Big and the Very Small if it occurred.
Had I been around at the time that previous holds fell off Mecca I would have argued for them being glued back on. But as they’re now long gone the window of opportunity is closed for doing that. As I said before, up till this incident the route has been in its current state for a long time. The current state is to my knowledge how it was when the extensions were done. It seems to me that most people who have done it recently or aspire to do it soon want it to remain in this, as I see it, definitive condition. Just because people were tardy about looking after the route in the past doesn’t mean we should be now.
And polish is a red herring. One route is as polished as the next on the tor. As there is no viable solution, it's not something worth trying to change. Besides limestone polishes extremely quickly. One of the footholds on Beluga was polished before I’d even done the FA!
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The last thing you want if Mecca is your hardest route (and for many ascentionists it is) is for someone who did it before the breakage to say “Ah but it was much harder when I did it” or if you did it before, for someone going on it today, unaware of the history to say “I don’t know why that start took you so long, it’s piss”.
Regardless of the grade, something like this could alter the route entirely. My view of Mecca is that it's one of the most sustained routes i've even been on if one move gets slightly easier then it takes away from that and alters the charachter of the route.
I couldn't agree more. If a move is made even slightly easier lower down it will have a massive effect when fighting up the groove later on as the nature of the climbing is cumulative. To gain the base of the groove and make the clip used to be 8b in its own right up until last week. If it is only 8a+ now then this will make a big difference. This is why it is so critical that any repair is done in the right way. The fact that it might still be 8b+ but a soft one is a lame reason for not doing the repair. The route should be preserved as the testpiece it has been since 1988 and not some gradebag 8b+.
Going on the case by case thing Mecca is very much a special case as it is the upper limit (or just above the upper limit in my case) of a lot of hard working sport climbers in the UK. A tiny change, even if it make no overall grade shift is a big deal. Mecca is THE benchmark testpiece. For some it’s their life’s work.
Yes yes that's all very well BUT...
Does it make any difference to the quality of the route?? Does it actually make it a worse route as a climbing experience??
There's a lot of talk about history, significance, benchmarks, grades, hardest this, life's work that, and not much about the quality (I mean climbing quality irrespective of whether it's one's big tick or not). Maybe Sloper was right in the first place......
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Totally in agreement with Bonjoy on this.
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Regardless of the grade, something like this could alter the route entirely. My view of Mecca is that it's one of the most sustained routes i've even been on if one move gets slightly easier then it takes away from that and alters the character of the route.
Does it make any difference to the quality of the route?? Does it actually make it a worse route as a climbing experience??
I'd argue Yes, potentially.
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Is that yes to making it worse, or yes to changing the quality (which could go either way ;))??
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Yes yes that's all very well BUT...
Does it make any difference to the quality of the route?? Does it actually make it a worse route as a climbing experience??
There's a lot of talk about history, significance, benchmarks, grades, hardest this, life's work that, and not much about the quality (I mean climbing quality irrespective of whether it's one's big tick or not). Maybe Sloper was right in the first place......
Don't you see? All of those things together equal quality. I doubt the change in the hold makes a vast difference to the 'feel' of the move. But the quality of the experience both for past and future ascentionists is arguably devalued by the change. Why else would everyone who it directly effects, who has posted on here, be in favour of fixing the hold?
Quality is a fuzzy concept which in the case of sport climbing is built up of multiple factor, the feel of the moves, the level of difficulty, the history, the aesthetic appeal of the line etc. Each aspect has to be weighed seperately when considering what actions to take.
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Ultimately I guess the outcome of this will be decided by the people who go to this crag and try this route currently. They'll be the only ones bothered enough to do anything (or indeed nothing). I'd guess that the concensus of opinion they will come to is whack a bit of glue on the hold. History will judge them, or more likely history will completely ignore them and instead judge something significant that happened at around the same time.
However should my future biographer(s?) wish to use this debate as an example of my shining ethical standards then I would count myself amongst the Travs and Fatdoc supporters.
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glue it on
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Ultimately I guess the outcome of this will be decided by the people who go to this crag and try this route currently. They'll be the only ones bothered enough to do anything (or indeed nothing).
I've been working on Mecca for a few days now, spread over a couple of weeks. My first two sessions on the route had the little pebble thing in place; then i came back on it the following week and it had gone. Maybe its just me but i DON'T think that this has made any significant difference for me. We're talking about a stone about as big as your little fingernail here!
Also i think that the move before this is the hardest for me cos when you've actually caught the crimp then its basically a static move from there to get the pocket. :-\
To say it will alter the grade IMHO is bollox.
Saying that i'm not really bothered either way! ;D
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Well the sophistic answer would be to make a replica bolt on hold and place this next to the new natural hold then people would have the chance to claim an irrelevant 8b+ or an Irrelevant 8a+ (change the grade according to your ego).
For me, and I guess Travs, Fatdoc and Nik climbing is about taking the challenge that faces you and dealing with that, if for some reason this one route stands outside this ethic then I'd like to see the jusitification used by the people that propose the action mooted.
Punter me all you like but to me this thread stinks of double standards, ignorance and ego; but if you do, do have the courage to approach me directly and discuss the issue.
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Punter me all you like but to me this thread stinks of double standards, ignorance and ego; but if you do, do have the courage to approach me directly and discuss the issue.
Why would anyone discuss this issue with you? Does your opinion count?
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Are you a f-kwit or just trying hard to do a good impression?
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Are you a f-kwit or just trying hard to do a good impression?
No need, have some smite
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Dear oh dear, calm down ladies it's only a hold breakage.
For what it's worth, if the hold is available I'd say glue it back.
Although, if the hold is lost I'm not sure whether reconstructing the broken hold with sika from memory would be so cut and dried.
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Are you a f-kwit or just trying hard to do a good impression?
?
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if for some reason this one route stands outside this ethic then I'd like to see the jusitification used by the people that propose the action mooted.
Punter me all you like but to me this thread stinks of double standards, ignorance and ego; but if you do, do have the courage to approach me directly and discuss the issue.
Bonjoy stated earlier, and, as anyone knows who clims on Peak Limestone, a lot of it is held together by glue. This mecca issue doesn't "stand out". There is no debate: if the hold is available, and somebody can be bothered, it goes back on. There is no arguement for that not being the case. Whether it's worth putting it back on is another matter altogether (a practical, not an ethical one), and only those who have been on the route can reasonably answer that.
Don't worry Mr Sloper, I won't punter you, but there are definitely no double standards or ignorance being shown by the main protagonists of this debate. You appear to be ignorant of the widespread practice of glueing holds on peak limestone however.
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there certainly IS a debate.
the hold has not fallen off mate!!
it's not like it's now 8a or 8c+
look at the post of the redpointer, he's not finding it different in grade and that is a vital part of this debate, coz the route is new to him - it's the top end of his ability ... his is the experience you all speak of being tarnished by a slightly better hold. Now it's obvious it aint making much difference.. so just coz the locals have the moves dialed and the hold shapes engramed to the max I would now suggest there is now much less justification for slappping another blob of sika onto mecca.
the evolution bit Travs mentioned is all too true.... to give more local examples to aid the debate
- tribes got harder by evolution.. no one reconstructed the sequance... just re did it at 8a
- zeke, the ice cream cone hold has come, gone and come again (i believe)
BTW, has anyone asked Basher?
In times gone by the 1st ascensionist would be the one to take the decision on this...
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I'm well aware of the wide spread use of sika to re-inforce holds, I'm well aware of the chipping, the drilling, the use of pof, the lying, the cheating that I'm aware of this doesn't detract from the question of whether these practices are to be encouraged or not.
The question is here, when a hold breaks and cannot be replaced whether it should be recreated? To me the simple answer to this is no, routes change; end of subject.
As for the point that only a small clique can comment on an issue that's simply ignorant, arrogant bollocks.
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I'm with travs and fatdoc on this, they appear to be holding a wiser view more sustainable in the long term, no doubt due them having been around a bit longer.
Its easy for the current tor crew to think that the present state of the cragr is THE definitive one, and therefore something worth preserving. It isn't either; the only thing constant is that it will change. This goes for trees, holds, bolts, everything. Trying to keep it in this one state is not realistic.
As for the point that only a small clique can comment on an issue that's simply ignorant, arrogant bollocks.
Agree completely.
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Sloper, Sloper, is that all Mr let’s-talk-politicsTM has to bring to this discussion, a handful of insults thrown from a position of ignorance? I am interested to hear an explanation of why I'm ignorant, egotistical and what these double standards are.
there certainly IS a debate.
the hold has not fallen off mate!!
You mean it WAS a debate. It seems to have descended into something else.
Anyway.
Tribes - You think a three star 7c+ loosing a hold and turning into a grim zero star 8a proves your point?! I'd argue it proves my point.
Zeke – Haven’t been on it so couldn’t comment
BTW, has anyone asked Basher?
ring ring...ring ring....
"Hello Martin 'Basher' Atkinson speaking."
"Would you consent to me putting half a teaspoon of resin on an already glued on hold, on the glued up route you did 25 years ago?"
If I bumped into him at the crag maybe, but call him up about such a trivial non-issue, when I already as good as know he wouldn’t give a crap?
In times gone by the 1st ascensionist would be the one to take the decision on this...
In times gone by the FA would still have been an active climber. This is twenty odd years later and the FA doesn’t really do much sport climbing in the peak anymore.
The idea of FA permission has always been a courtesy thing. Total adherence to it is neither practical nor desirable when it comes to such a minor issue as this.
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Add Johnny Brown to the list of people with whom I am in agreement with.
Also thanks to JC for giving his "at the coal face" opinion as a current suitor of the route.
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JB - Given the context of you being totally against the use of bolts and sika at all on any peak crag, I think your view went without saying.
Clearly my twenty years of climbing in the peak makes me a clueless whippers snapper when held up against these wise old sages. More insults, whatever happened to quality debate? ???
Here's an alternative view of how this argument (and many other similar internet 'debates') splits climbers. The group who are directly affected by the point in question hold the pragmatic logical view. The group who it has no practical effect on rush to occupy the apparent moral high ground, then resort to hurling insults when pushed to expound on a subject they don't really understand.
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That's very interesting Bonjoy. Are you including myself in your grouping of those who have no interest in the route, are hurling abuse, and taking the moral highground? Be careful and reread my postings before answering this one.
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I'm firmly in the group who this has no practical effect on, but isn't this a case of artificially modifying a route, irrespective of whether the grade is being brought down/up to whatever level?
If someone had chipped a hold there would be up-roar at the desecration, by the sound of it the demise of this hold has occurred naturally so why try and fight the geological forces that create the strata climbed on?
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That's very interesting Bonjoy. Are you including myself in your grouping of those who have no interest in the route, are hurling abuse, and taking the moral highground? Be careful and reread my postings before answering this one.
No I wasn't accussing you of hurling insults. Of all the the no-fixers you are the most likely to get on Mecca I'd guess, although I do admit that having never seen you with a rope on (apart from in old guides) I had thought you only bouldered these days. My mistake.
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JB - Given the context of you being totally against the use of bolts and sika at all on any peak crag, I think your view went without saying.
That may be, however I kept an open mind and found travs arguments more compelling then yours this time. As ever this will not be decided here, it will either be glued back on or not. Andy's initial dismay did seem a bit over the top though.
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I'm firmly in the group who this has no practical effect on, but isn't this a case of artificially modifying a route, irrespective of whether the grade is being brought down/up to whatever level?
If someone had chipped a hold there would be up-roar at the desecration, by the sound of it the demise of this hold has occurred naturally so why try and fight the geological forces that create the strata climbed on?
Without going into lengthy explanation or repetition of previous posts. Mecca is not a climbable route due to natural processes alone. If you accept your point, then by the same logic it shouldn't exist in the first place and should be left to become extinct as crucial holds fall off it. This might be your's and JB's view but as someone who enjoys peak sport climbing I see a minimum level of gluing as a nesessity. Where that level is is the point of this discussion, not whether or not it should happen at all. That is a valid discusion, but a different one.
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To be fair Bonjoy your comment on the rope is very true, however, I have been mulling over the idea of doing a few routes I failed to tick all those years ago with Mecca being one of them. As they say 'Never say Never'. ;)
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How anyone feels that they can take some sort of ethical moral high ground on this is beyond belief and the fact that one person has decided to drag the thread into the gutter of name calling and insult throwing is very sad indeed and not in the spirit of this forum.
Someone should just go and fix the fucking thing before people start thinking this is a major issue instead of something that has happened hundreds of times in the past and will happen hundreds of times again in the future.
Sloper, Sloper, is that all Mr let’s-talk-politicsTM has to bring to this discussion, a handful of insults thrown from a position of ignorance? I am interested to hear an explanation of why I'm ignorant, egotistical and what these double standards are.
Hear hear.
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Bonjoy I think you have maybe misjudged to mojority of those posting against the glueing.
Sloper has thrown insults, and received a return.
I don't think anybody else has been insulting, unless you count my dismissal of the whole event as historically insignificant?
I also don't think anybody is really playing the "we are the wise elders of the tribe" card. Lets be honest it is hard to have a moral high ground about a glued together piece of limestone that annecdotal evidence would suggest is doing its best to fall down. My feeling (which appears to be shared by others) is that given the route is still climbable in much the same way at much the same grade using much the same sequence nothing needs doing. Had the actual hold fallen of and was lying at the bottom of the crag then by all means glue it back on but in this case it strikes me that nothign needs doing. Who is losing out by doing nothing? Nobody in my eyes. And by the same token nobody gains anything by doing something. So why bother?
At the end of the day it will probably get a dab of glue, and to be honest it doesn't matter to me either way. I'm certainly not going to set up a mini protest camp at the crag but feel perfectly justified in expressing an opinion on this forum.
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There's a lot of talk about history, significance, benchmarks, grades, hardest this, life's work that, and not much about the quality (I mean climbing quality irrespective of whether it's one's big tick or not).
Don't you see? All of those things together equal quality. I doubt the change in the hold makes a vast difference to the 'feel' of the move. But the quality of the experience both for past and future ascentionists is arguably devalued by the change.
Do they equal quality? Is it devalued?
I would put quality of the moves, technical interest, continuity of climbing, balance of the route, distinctiveness of the climbing, beauty of the rock, strikingness of the line, and atmosphere and position to be far above "history, significance, benchmarks, grades". I think the former factors are far more important than the latter factors. The latter factors might make a route more "significant" or "essential" (shades of Hard Rock "essential tick regardless of quality" yuckiness there), but they don't necessarily make it any better a CLIMB nor CLIMBING.
Why else would everyone who it directly effects, who has posted on here, be in favour of fixing the hold?
Because they want to hang on to something important to them....but it isn't necessarily route quality.
I'm obviously in the "I could never climb this in a million years camp", but I'm not totally ignorant about the issues at stake, they apply irrespective of grade or difficulty. But to use an example I do have direct experience of, imagine a hypothetical example with Comes The Dervish:
Say a chunk of rock falls out of CTD at the lower crux, revealing a good wire slot.
(Say a chunk of rock falls out of a Mecca hold, revealing a better hold.)
Say that change to the route makes it an easier proposition, E2 instead of E3.
(Say that change to the route makes it an easier proposition, easy F8b+ or F8b instead of benchmark F8b+.)
Say that route previously has been an aspiration for many people and a highly regarded, historical, and significant big tick at that grade.
(Say that route previously has been an aspiration for many people and a highly regarded, historical, and significant big tick at that grade.)
Say that now CTD is not the same historical big tick and people have lost the opportunity to climb it like that.
(Say that now Mecca is not the same historical big tick and people have lost the opportunity to climb it like that.)
But has the reduction in stature and significance actually make it a worse route?
(But has the reduction in stature and significance actually make it a worse route?)
IMO, if such a thing happened to CTD, I would say it would actually be a much better route - a brilliantly balanced E2 instead of a squittery E3 highball with a proper route stacked on top. We'd all lose the classic tick but we'd gain a higher quality climb.
OBVIOUSLY I have no idea how much change the alteration of a hold will make to the quality of Mecca - but that's why I was asking and pressing the issue, because I believe that is the most important factor to take into account.
If someone is going to say "Actually, not only does it make it easier, it makes it worse, it's now a gash move, it unbalances the route, it's not as much fun or pleasure to climb it"....then totally fair enough, that's a good case.
P.S. It might not be a major issue but I find it interesting.
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Punter me all you like but to me this thread stinks of double standards, ignorance and ego; but if you do, do have the courage to approach me directly and discuss the issue.
Why would anyone discuss this issue with you? Does your opinion count?
Just to clarify, my heckles were raised by Sloper thinking that his opinion was so great that people would be so weak as not to challenge him face to face. I wasn't commenting on his view point in this debate.
Things get glued on and fall off all of the time on Limestone. If we want to maintain the routes we need to be proactive about these situations and reinforce holds before they fall off. If that was the case here no one would have been complaining about someone backing up the hold................. although gluing on the In brine hold for the umpteenth time is ok.
fade to grey
There are instances on grit when this has happened too. What about when the top of the Joker came off? I don't see JB up there with a crow bar.
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Nik – Fiend – Both good posts.
Nik – the reference to insults was not pointed at you at all. The reference to ‘wise sages’ was in response to JB’s assertion that my stance was a product of a supposed lack of maturity in the sport compared to Travs and Fatdoc.
I think we are tending toward agreement that this is so minor (especially when compared with the volume of glue on the crag already) as to be outside the realm of moral/ethical consideration.
Which leaves you with the pragmatic argument. You ask who is losing out by it not being fixed? Basically it muddies the water regarding Mecca’s status as 8b+ testpiece. Whether or not the difficulty has actually changed, a perception will exist that it has and it will split people into pre and post hold-change ascentionists. It is a fairly trivial matter, but the remedy is equally trivial so might as well be carried out.
Fiend – Climbing is many things. Protracted redpoint style sport climbing is very different from onsighting on grit. For someone spending months, perhaps years, trying to climb Mecca “quality of the moves, technical interest, continuity of climbing, balance of the route, distinctiveness of the climbing, beauty of the rock, strikingness of the line, and atmosphere and position” are all important, but it is more about personal challenge and difficulty. It’s about getting your frail ass up this monolithic object of difficulty i.e. the route’s testpiece status is a larger than usual factor in the equation. Therefore any slight movement of the goalposts is significant. It’s like running a 4 minute mile, then being told that the guy who marks the track put the line a metre back from where it should be, but figured it was no big deal so didn’t change it back. It might make no practical difference but it has devalued the quality of the achievement. The quality of the track and movements involved are no different, but the quality of the endeavour to the runner is negatively effected in a way seemingly out of proportion to the discrepancy.
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I'm firmly in the group who this has no practical effect on, but isn't this a case of artificially modifying a route, irrespective of whether the grade is being brought down/up to whatever level?
If someone had chipped a hold there would be up-roar at the desecration, by the sound of it the demise of this hold has occurred naturally so why try and fight the geological forces that create the strata climbed on?
Without going into lengthy explanation or repetition of previous posts. Mecca is not a climbable route due to natural processes alone. If you accept your point, then by the same logic it shouldn't exist in the first place and should be left to become extinct as crucial holds fall off it. This might be your's and JB's view but as someone who enjoys peak sport climbing I see a minimum level of gluing as a nesessity. Where that level is is the point of this discussion, not whether or not it should happen at all. That is a valid discusion, but a different one.
Well ALL the routes at millstone are the result of non natural processes, by extension of your argument you would support certain peg pockets being reduced in size etc.
My point about the arrogance was with regard to the posturing of 'only those who have climbed the route etc can comment'.
Dylan, your retraction though welcome appears duplicitous, as for your point about the hold on the joker, that's the replacement of a hold rather than a re-creation of a hold; a subtle but important difference.
In my opinion if the rock breaks so be it, accept the new challenge as it is or not at all. The significance given to the affect that the breakage has had on the grade, to me, speaks volumes.
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Well ALL the routes at millstone are the result of non natural processes, by extension of your argument you would support certain peg pockets being reduced in size etc.
No, one is trad grit and one is sport lime. Different situation, different rules. One rule fits all is a recipe for disaster.
The comparison is also weak as one is incidentally produced by quarrying and aid climbing and one is deliberately reinforced to stabilise the climbing.
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It’s about getting your frail ass up this monolithic object of difficulty i.e. the route’s testpiece status is a larger than usual factor in the equation. Therefore any slight movement of the goalposts is significant. It’s like running a 4 minute mile, then being told that the guy who marks the track put the line a metre back from where it should be, but figured it was no big deal so didn’t change it back.
This is a good point, but it doesn't stand up. As I said earlier you are assuming one state of the route (when you first tried it?) as being definitive. As others have already pointed out, this isn't the case - it has changed meny times already. It seems you are prepared to let it get harder but not easier.
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you are assuming one state of the route as being definitive. As others have already pointed out, this isn't the case - it has changed meny times already. It seems you are prepared to let it get harder but not easier.
I don't think this is quite the point. It is regrettable that the route changed in the past. We are merely trying to make sure it doesn't happen like this again by being pro-active with the glue tube rather than just let it crumble away before our eyes.
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JB - I agree, it's arbitary to call any state the definative one. I have described the changes to this route myself earlier in the thread. However, given that if you do nothing it will eventually cease to be climbable you might as well make the effort to patch repair it as an when you spot hold loss.
The current state has a stronger case than any other for being the definative one and is the only one we have the option to preserve. As i said earlier, it has changed little in the last ten years (bar the crimp in question falling off and being stuck back on again) and the three extensions where done in this state. When people aspire to do Mecca they are, I believe, aspiring to do Mecca as it has been for a decade, if that is not a strong case for calling the state definative, I don't know what could be.
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My point about the arrogance was with regard to the posturing of 'only those who have climbed the route etc can comment'.
Having reread the thread I'm struggling to see where you got this idea (that has offended you so) from. Nobody (apart from you) has said that "only those who have climbed the route etc can comment" on the hold.
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now that the abuse hurling has relented I wanna clarify my stance:
I'm old, I'm too heavy to redpoint 8s... i dont care about this...
I in no way consider myself an elder statesmen, nor influencial nor a greater voice than others by being of more years than most..
i've done my time at the Tor, it gave me >15 years of experiences climbing...
the bigger picture of route / crag evolution is my prime concern
I'd love the route to still be a route, no doubt one day i'll be getting a cricked neck belaying my kids on it.. it's really rather good for a tor route IMO..
but as it's still a route, near on a similar grade and it's not in climbing gym. it will and has changed with time..
i agree if the hold was on the floor of the cliff then stick it on, a fine line of personal judgement, it's just an opinion
Andy??
what are your thoughts now?
BTW, I'm not convinced that ruling out Basher's opinion is right. The first big gluing job on the crag was by him, on this route..
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My point about the arrogance was with regard to the posturing of 'only those who have climbed the route etc can comment'.
Having reread the thread I'm struggling to see where you got this idea (that has offended you so) from. Nobody (apart from you) has said that "only those who have climbed the route etc can comment" on the hold.
No they didn't say comment but they did say 'Like Jon said it's up to the people who have already redpointed to make a decision'.
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That quote of Dylan's can only be about Fatdoc's remark
It's one to decide by those operating at that level.
as I have said nothing to that effect in this thread, neither has the only other jon JC.
So you're actually calling Fatdoc arrogant and posturing and he's arguing the same side as you!!
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Exactly. It's also a fucking big leap to make from those comments to a position where you feel the need to start throwing insults about - even misdirected ones. Especially as the rest of this discussion has been conducted in a thoroughly civilised fashion. Enough anyway, just thought it worth pointing out that nobody'd actually said these things.
:-*
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i'm getting one of my headaches
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Glue it. Put it back to it's original position, so it's in (as near as possible) the correct state. Have a look at Biological (Kilnsey) It went from a 3* 7c to a not very good and unbalanced 8a to a really good 7c by addition of a bit of glue (and a very large hold...). Keep Mecca in the condition it was.
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I'm in the glue it back on camp. I don't believe (may be incorrect) that there are many 8b+'s in this country. If i ever got to that lofty grade i would like to do one which people didn't downgrade to 8b (it appears at least a few people think the recent hold change makes the route easier). and since it's full of glue anyway it seems like a no brainer
Cheers
Tim
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I'm in the glue it back on camp.
If I read the thread correctly nobody has the rest of the hold so its not a choice of gluing it back on, whats being suggested is that the existing hold be reshaped to its original size using sika. For reasons I can't quite articulate the blocking of a hold with sika seems to me to be stage on from regluing a hold which has fallen off back on therefore i'm in the leave it as it is camp. Not that I have ever been near the route (or are likely to), so I really don't have a strong opinion,
As to the Biological Need example - the effect of the lost hold was much greater so it doesn't make a great comparison.
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As to the Biological Need example - the effect of the lost hold was much greater so it doesn't make a great comparison.
A change is a change in my view whether it affects the difficulty of the route by 50% or 0.5%.
Given the very special nature of this route to climbers aspiring to climb 8b+ I think the case is more than made out for a repair job.
As for leaving the hold as it is, to take another example from the running world, why don't we just let all the 100m runners do 99.5m instead from now on if it lets a few more people run the race below 10 seconds?
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ok (perhaps i needed to be more clear?) :-\ im in the repair it as discussed this this thread.
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I'm in the glue it back on camp.
If I read the thread correctly nobody has the rest of the hold so its not a choice of gluing it back on, whats being suggested is that the existing hold be reshaped to its original size using sika. For reasons I can't quite articulate the blocking of a hold with sika seems to me to be stage on from regluing a hold which has fallen off back on therefore i'm in the leave it as it is camp. Not that I have ever been near the route (or are likely to), so I really don't have a strong opinion,
All being well, I’ll be holding JC’s rope for his first Mecca redpoint attempt on Friday and, as far as I’m concerned, if and when he sends it – jobs a good ‘un and he’ll move on from there.
He found the moves into and through the upper groove much more demanding than the bottom wall, anyway and, having belayed him I can honestly say (hold on or hold off) that bit didn’t present too many problems either way, as he indicated in his post. I don’t think that, for him, it’ll change the redpoint (and, by implication, the grade) at all significantly, BUT it may do for others, OR they may feel it does.
Therefore, I’m tempted to say Yeah, stick something back on, so we don’t waste any more time over it! While on the rope, JC could attempt a ‘Sika replication’ of the bit that came off, but he only had a couple of short sessions on it (while it was in) then, when the next opportunity came, it had gone! So, we don’t really know how to shape it and I don’t think it fair that he (or anybody else, taking it on) face potential criticism for not doing a ‘proper’ job.
I know JC’s keen to get on the extension/s before long and, so, may end up in the unique situation of climbing Mecca in the ‘new’ form first and subsequently in the ‘old’ form, if somebody does blob the hold in between. You couldn’t make it up, if you tried!
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JC could attempt a ‘Sika replication’ of the bit that came off, but he only had a couple of short sessions on it (while it was in) then, when the next opportunity came, it had gone! So, we don’t really know how to shape it and I don’t think it fair that he (or anybody else, taking it on) face potential criticism for not doing a ‘proper’ job.
Thanks a lot for the offer belperpete. I know that hold like the back of my hand as I have had a substantial number of sessions on said route :lol:. I don't mind doing some legwork at the weekend with a view to getting it repaired as I am currently out of commission for climbing with a trapped nerve in my leg. I will ring round some regulars to see if anybody has the piece.
Good luck to JC on Friday!!! Hopefully it will be a case of... :beer2: :alky:
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I have just spoken to Keith who says it is not worth getting stressed over such a wee chunk of stone so basically I have changed my mind and am not fussed either way ;D
Thanks to everybody for the fine ethical discussions that have resulted in this thread!! I will now exit stage left.... :P
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Basically it has to be glued and returned to something like its previous self. Why? because its not just Mecca we are talking about here but its various extensions. I dont want to have waisted 5 years on something that now people will say its no longer 8c but only 8b+. Of course I am talking about the original Mecca extension which is likely to be if ever the only 8C I ever do.
Glue it asap and stop all the philosophising going on here. I will definately do it if no one else does.
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If I read the thread correctly nobody has the rest of the hold so its not a choice of gluing it back on, whats being suggested is that the existing hold be reshaped to its original size using sika. For reasons I can't quite articulate the blocking of a hold with sika seems to me to be stage on from regluing a hold which has fallen off back on therefore i'm in the leave it as it is camp. Not that I have ever been near the route (or are likely to), so I really don't have a strong opinion,
:agree:
That's what I said before, but you said it better.
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Basically it has to be glued and returned to something like its previous self. Why? because its not just Mecca we are talking about here but its various extensions. I dont want to have waisted 5 years on something that now people will say its no longer 8c but only 8b+. Of course I am talking about the original Mecca extension which is likely to be if ever the only 8C I ever do.
Glue it asap and stop all the philosophising going on here. I will definately do it if no one else does.
I just have to say - "do it" (in whatever state it's in)- it's the only way to can have an 'informed' interpretation of events, so far.]
However, I have to say, if you're fit enough, then, I don't think the loss of this hold will make any difference to the outcome of your attempts on whatever extension you go for.
Get in touch with JC - he'll do them, if you don't - wish we knew who you are (but you'd make a good team, I can tell - and he needs pushing (and probably you), to realise his potential.)
Go for it!!!
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Basically it has to be glued and returned to something like its previous self. Why? because its not just Mecca we are talking about here but its various extensions. I dont want to have waisted 5 years on something that now people will say its no longer 8c but only 8b+. Of course I am talking about the original Mecca extension which is likely to be if ever the only 8C I ever do.
Glue it asap and stop all the philosophising going on here. I will definately do it if no one else does.
I've just read this again, and am a bit worried (in a supportive way) about what's being said.
It doesn't matter what route is being referred to, BUT, what's the problem if 'people' say you've "only' done an 8b+ (which you thought was 8c?)
What are you trying to prove and to whom??
NO route is the same for everybody (go's without saying??).
Grades only give an indication of how hard any one person will find a route, because of the complexity of body mechanics, conditioning and motivation etc.
SO, break away from the inhibitions of what you're trying to match up to and just fu**ing climb as hard as YOU can and then take satisfaction in that.
Let's face it - you can't do better than that!!
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Of course I am talking about the original Mecca extension which is likely to be if ever the only 8C I ever do.
On a related note Simon, do you know what the state of the gear is like on the extension? Looked like the original bolts when i looked at it? :o
Will probably rebolt it soon if needed...
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I have just spoken to Keith who says it is not worth getting stressed over such a wee chunk of stone so basically I have changed my mind and am not fussed either way ;D
Thanks to everybody for the fine ethical discussions that have resulted in this thread!! I will now exit stage left.... :P
I don't think we'll ever get a 'correct' answer on this one, at the moment, so IMOP let's stick something back on it, to defer a decision (which is never going to happen).
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For what it's worth when I posted I was in a bit of a negative mood believing the "bit" was pushed rather than succumbing to gravity. Who knows maybe I was a little judgemental but given what I see and hear happening in the pursuit of the almighty grade...
There's very little peak sports limestone and just about every line has been done so we need to look after what we've got. Ideally everyone would be like JonBoy and clean projects very well, bolt them with glue ins and remove, clean and stabilise loose hods in the 1st place. Unfortunately a lot of these old school routes were shabbily bolted and baddly fixed up (check out the mecca extension & 42 for example). Basically this type of rock is not great quality and unless we look after it and make occasional repairs everything will just crumble away and become crappy for the next generation. This repair would not only maintain the standard but help preserve it for the future.
Sure Steve Mac could probably climb Mecca and most other routes if half the holds fell off but most mortals would not. As far as I know it's the only 8b+ in the whole Peak that has been dry over the past few years. Given the lack of 8b+ and above in the peak which makes it doubly important to look after it (i count only 16 routes >8b).
Repairing holds is park of the lime history and i think as long as a good job is done it's OK. Sure we shouldn't create holds from nothing or if bits crumbled to oblivion but if it's an easy repair and or the hold is available it should be fixed.
can't write anymore as i need to go to bed an the tor awaits tomorrow.
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Hi Andy - yeah, you're historically correct and, undoubtedly Mecca is an iconic route. So it's good to consider whether it ought to be (somehow) restored to it's former state.
Should it be done and, if so, will it get done - fuck knows?
Now, let's get back to the climbing.
See you at the Tor Friday?
Also, are you getting on the Long Tor (Matlock) project any time soon??
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Hi Pete,
should be at the tor 10/11ish.
keen for the LTQ project but for me it needs to be really dry and cool. Will try and get theer ovr the next few weeks.
Andy
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I've just read this again, and am a bit worried (in a supportive way) about what's being said.
It doesn't matter what route is being referred to, BUT, what's the problem if 'people' say you've "only' done an 8b+ (which you thought was 8c?)
What are you trying to prove and to whom??
NO route is the same for everybody (go's without saying??).
Grades only give an indication of how hard any one person will find a route, because of the complexity of body mechanics, conditioning and motivation etc.
SO, break away from the inhibitions of what you're trying to match up to and just fu**ing climb as hard as YOU can and then take satisfaction in that.
Let's face it - you can't do better than that!!
For me the grade here is important. I have done mecca and have always aimed to do an 8c before age /injuries put pay to that.
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:-\Hi Simon? I get where you're coming from, but, at this stage, if you wanna be SURE, in your own mind that the extension you're working on is 8c, then you're gonna have to stick an exact replica of the fallen hold back on.
BTW Mecca (and the original extension) was well hammered today by Andy, Rich and Roy, so JC didn't get on it. I suspect that they regard the hold change, in the light of experience, as insignificant, but it would be interesting to hear their take on it?.
Why don't you get back on it and see for yourself if it's reduced the grade?
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On a related note Simon, do you know what the state of the gear is like on the extension? Looked like the original bolts when i looked at it? :o
Will probably rebolt it soon if needed...
The bolts at the top are the original bolts and must be 20 odd years old. They're however all intact and all the bolts look firmly fixed in so as a result it doesn't render the route unclimbable or of serious concern. A replacement soon is certainly in order. You'd be doing me a serious favour if you could rebolt them, it is a little scary falling on them! Don't mind contributing to the bolt fund if you do.
With regards to a repair or not on the Mecca crimp, my view at present would be to repair the hold. As mentioned in my first post the nature of the hold has changed and as a result this has likely changed the overall feel of the move. Suprisingly enough i did not notice the missing bit until Andy pointed it out after me last week and when pulling through move I still held the hold as a three finger open crimp, the same way i did when i did the route last year. This will almost certainly feel different as a four finger closed crimp. I will confirm this tomorrow. Now that i'm on the extension i don't want to moves i have so well wired to feel different. For something that has had time invested a small change makes a big difference.
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You wouldn't get this debate in Wales as by now John Redhead would have wittled a new hold from the felled tree and called it Circle of Life or something.
There's no logical reason to add ska to this hold and to try to apply logic to the argument does the 'pro' camp no favours. However, the romantics among us will feel that some things about climbing are special and transcend logic and reason. I'll never climb this route but I can see why some will wish to keep to exactly as was, in the same way I think anyone who climbs Raindogs by going out right at the top are wrong, it defys reason to think like that but some things in climbing just can't be rationalised and long may it remain so.
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Great thread!
Am loving the passion even though I've nothing to add to the debate...
God, I love climbing!
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Having been back on Mecca yesterday and had a closer look at the hold I think it should be repaired as in my opinion this breakage could compromise the integrity of the main hold. The repair will be small, insigificant and hard to spot and will hopefully preserve the main hold.
As for grades well having been back on the route this move is a touch easier but in no way will it alter the grade of Mecca or the extensions. It's say a couple of % easier in my view but to others it will probably be nof different.
Anyway it was interesting to see evryones views of hold repair.
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You wouldn't get this debate in Wales as by now John Redhead would have wittled a new hold from the felled tree and called it Circle of Life or something.
There's no logical reason to add ska to this hold and to try to apply logic to the argument does the 'pro' camp no favours. However, the romantics among us will feel that some things about climbing are special and transcend logic and reason. I'll never climb this route but I can see why some will wish to keep to exactly as was, in the same way I think anyone who climbs Raindogs by going out right at the top are wrong, it defys reason to think like that but some things in climbing just can't be rationalised and long may it remain so.
It would make the whole debate very black and white
(http://images.quizfarm.com/1132369803Ska-Man---Two-Tone-Logo--C10044093.jpg)
sorry, couldn't help myself ;D
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That's much too much.
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you should be out having fun
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Having been back on Mecca yesterday and had a closer look at the hold I think it should be repaired as in my opinion this breakage could compromise the integrity of the main hold. The repair will be small, insigificant and hard to spot and will hopefully preserve the main hold.
As for grades well having been back on the route this move is a touch easier but in no way will it alter the grade of Mecca or the extensions. It's say a couple of % easier in my view but to others it will probably be nof different.
Anyway it was interesting to see everyones' views of hold repair.
Thanks Andy, by the way did you snatch it?? and did the extension get done. Jeez, you were all so close and it's all brilliant stuff! Sounds right (to me)to do as you say. It's up for anybody to sort out, but, if it's not done next time we're there (which will be soon), Jon and I will attempt a reasonable repair of the hold by shortening the length appropriately and making sure it's reinforced against future breakage.
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Having been back on Mecca yesterday and had a closer look at the hold I think it should be repaired as in my opinion this breakage could compromise the integrity of the main hold. The repair will be small, insigificant and hard to spot and will hopefully preserve the main hold.
As for grades well having been back on the route this move is a touch easier but in no way will it alter the grade of Mecca or the extensions. It's say a couple of % easier in my view but to others it will probably be nof different.
Anyway it was interesting to see everyones' views of hold repair.
Thanks Andy, by the way did you snatch it?? and did the extension get done. Jeez, you were all so close and it's all brilliant stuff! Sounds right (to me)to do as you say. It's up for anybody to sort out, but, if it's not done next time we're there (which will be soon), Jon and I will attempt a reasonable repair of the hold by shortening the length appropriately and making sure it's reinforced against future breakage.
No offence here Pete but i think the repair should be done by someone who has considerable recollection of what the hold was like previously. If you do then fair enough.
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Non taken John and I understand the problem, as already mentioned in one of my earlier posts.
Referring back to Kingy's last post, I wonder if anybody else will get 'off their arse' and sort it though.
i'm happy to stand back and observe. Cheers.
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Leave it be, it's not a diamond from the Queens tiara . . . ::)
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I wonder if anybody else will get 'off their arse' and sort it though.
Don't worry Pete it will get done soon. There are plenty of willing gluers out there. I agree with John that it is best that somebody with a lot of experience of the hold as it was should do the repair. Otherwise there is a risk that it will not be put back exactly how it was. As for myself, I am taking a back seat as I am 'out of the loop' if you will as I am injured and not going to the crag every week.
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Sorry about the injury, but that's cool re the gluing
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Leave it be, it's not a diamond from the Queens tiara . . . ::)