UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Fiend on June 26, 2008, 07:55:49 pm
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Can it please have Ray Wood's (?) b/w photo of Redhead on Raped By Affection from And One For the Crow as the front cover.
Ta,
Fiend.
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And can we have it soon please?
Word on the street is that the guide is being postponed so the wads can all finish their projects before going to print!
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Fiend, I'm afraid I'll have to say no to your suggestion. It's a definitive guide and thus in one sense a historical document/record of the era. Therefore it should have an image on the front cover that reflects the latest wave of development. Fair enough if there hadn't been much happening on slate in recent times a classic image would be appropriate, but as I'm sure you're aware there has been a huge amount of new route activity in the last 2 years.
Right now this is the strongest candidate:
(http://www.groundupclimbing.com/upload/news/slatecover1mockup%20(1)%20280.jpg)
Jack Gelderd's shot of Pete Robins on his new route, Tamborine Man F8a in California.
Will: the main reason the guide has not been published yet is because we're still tussling with the Gogarth North guide (which I did promise would be out in June!). As soon as that is sent off to the printer, we'll be switching all resources to the North Wales Slate guide.
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we're still tussling with the Gogarth North guide (which I did promise would be out in June!).
you've still got 14 hours to get it done. pull the finger out.
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Maybe I should give Anneka Rice a call. I'm sure she could make it happen.
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You don't need a blonde and an helicopter, you need a montage.
"we have to make you a complete gogarth guide in very little time,... I think i know exactly what we need...."
(http://animated-views.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/tawp-04.JPG)
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Maybe I should give Anneka Rice a call. I'm sure she could make it happen.
Have you got all pics for the guide Simon? I have quite a nice picture of Tom Briggs onsighting Wreath Of a Deadly Nightshade?
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Mark Reeves' classic picture of slate wad extraordinaire, Will Hunt, climbing Goose Creature is an obvious front cover.
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Maybe I should give Anneka Rice a call. I'm sure she could make it happen.
Have you got all pics for the guide Simon? I have quite a nice picture of Tom Briggs onsighting Wreath Of a Deadly Nightshade?
Actually, I am considering doing a last minute switch on one of the North Stack action shots, so do send it over to me.
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Mark Reeves' classic picture of slate wad extraordinaire, Will Hunt, climbing Goose Creature is an obvious front cover.
Since when has 'obvious' been the best option? ;)
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(http://www.groundupclimbing.com/upload/news/slatecover1mockup%20(1)%20280.jpg)
Jack Gelderd's shot of Pete Robins on his new route, Tamborine Man F8a in California.
Liking the cover a lot Si.. never climbed on slate but it kinda sums up what I imagine it's like.. amazing lines, but dark, technical and thin!
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Maybe I should give Anneka Rice a call. I'm sure she could make it happen.
Have you got all pics for the guide Simon? I have quite a nice picture of Tom Briggs onsighting Wreath Of a Deadly Nightshade?
Actually, I am considering doing a last minute switch on one of the North Stack action shots, so do send it over to me.
Sent them to info@northwalesbouldering.com
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Thanks Adam. I've emailed you.
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I don't have any photos of people and I certainly don't know what the word on the street is, but I am definitely looking forward to these two guides, Gogarth especially.
The mock-up cover posted, I think it's a good shot but I think there's better around. The ones of that new arete thing and of that new 8b wall thing, whatever they're called - they all have gothic names and seem to be done by Pete Macaffie or James Robbins or some combination anyway, I'm sure you know the photos I mean. Those sort of photos seemed to have stronger lines and more of a sense of places than the one posted above. Just 0.02 in case user feedback helps.
(On the subject of which, if a nu-skool sport photo is on the cover, it would be nice to have some very trad route as the next most prominent photo, to show the breadth of climbing in the quarries)
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I don't have any photos of people and I certainly don't know what the word on the street is, but I am definitely looking forward to these two guides, Gogarth especially.
The mock-up cover posted, I think it's a good shot but I think there's better around. The ones of that new arete thing and of that new 8b wall thing, whatever they're called - they all have gothic names and seem to be done by Pete Macaffie or James Robbins or some combination anyway, I'm sure you know the photos I mean. Those sort of photos seemed to have stronger lines and more of a sense of places than the one posted above. Just 0.02 in case user feedback helps.
(On the subject of which, if a nu-skool sport photo is on the cover, it would be nice to have some very trad route as the next most prominent photo, to show the breadth of climbing in the quarries)
Ray has just taken some early morning shots of Pete on The New Slatesman, and they may end up being used yet.
My plan for the cover is as follows:
Front: hardcore state of the art shot (i.e. hard sport route)
Inside front cover spread: classic old school designer danger
Inside back cover spread: accessible state of the art shot (i.e. low grade sport)
I don't want to stir the mud up again, but it is worth pointing out that as far as I'm concerned those classic 80s routes are a very important aspect of the slate climbing, and despite the uninformed vitriol that pours forth from the keyboards of people like John Cox, none of the locals that I know have any intention of retroing them.
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I don't want to stir the mud up again, but it is worth pointing out that as far as I'm concerned those classic 80s routes are a very important aspect of the slate climbing, and despite the uninformed vitriol that pours forth from the keyboards of people like John Cox, none of the locals that I know have any intention of retroing them.
I've obviously missed something (knowing nothing about any controversy or stirred up mud) but feel likewise about all those 80's classics. It's for routes like those that most of us head to the slate, as far as I'm aware anyway. Although admittedly I've yet to sample any of the newer bolted stuff - I think I've only done a handful of true clip (see what I did there?) ups on slate.
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Ben, last year there were a series of protracted threads on UKC discussing the alleged retroing of classic designer danger slate routes. It all got rather heated. The truth is that one or two obscure routes were retroed, and a number of other obscure routes had the odd bolt added. None of the clasic routes were touched, beyond like for like replacements of 20 year old bolts. I was angry that people were sticking the boot into a group of people who had done an enormous amount of selfless re-equipping work. The fuss has died down of late, but I notice that people like John Cox continue to make uninformed and disparaging comments about Llanberis locals wrecking the quarries.
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Or:
Ben, last year there was, amongst others, one major thread on UKC (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=246307&v=1) started by myself, expressing concern over the trend towards newer slate routes being predominantly sport routes, and asking what the decision process is for (re/retro/new) bolting. It all started off rather civilised but unfortunately the activists involved tended to mistake questions for accusations, and respond aggressively by dismissing those concerned about slate as being "against" their bolting efforts, thus spawning some heated and personal arguments (admittedly with a couple of other people (Paz) provoking them). The truth is....hard to find as the activists were reluctant to discuss fact/figures nor how bolting decisions were made, but eventually HoseyB did post some route stats, and the vague feeling of bolting decisions seemed to be "new routers do whatever they like".
I was pretty disappointed that otherwise respectable people responded to questions with disparaging insults. E.g. an initial post containing lines like "Whilst I appreciate and respect the efforts put into like-for-like bolting and rationalising some of the more abstract bolting choices of the past," followed by asking how consense was achieved, was responded to with comments like "an outcry by narrow-minded negative climbers", "what often seems like petty and ungrateful armchair sniping", and "this peurile thread".
Thus fuss has died down of late, BUT I noticed later that year in both Climb and Climber, the online debate was completely mis-represented in new route reports. In one magazine the report said something like this "...people continue to enjoy these routes despite some dissenting voices online", which mis-represents the strength of feeling in the thread, and in another something like "...there was some online discussion but the majority were in favour of the new sport routes" which is simply a lie as it's clear in the discussion that at the very least there's equal numbers on each 'side', but more likely (without going through post by post, but the very fact that my simple question spawned a 300 post debate rather than 30 replies saying "nah slate bolting is fine, end of story" is pertinent in itself) a majority in the online discussion who are concerned or against the new sport routes.
(I wasn't sure to mention the last issue now, but I still regret that I didn't post about it at the time as I was pretty disgusted with the new routes section writers using their position in the magazine to gloss over and falsify the debate and questions raised there-in - and I'd regret if I didn't mention it this time.)
P.S. Just in case I am "painted" as being on "side", I am not on any sides about this sort of issue. I'm not pro-bolt nor anti-bolt, I'm neutral. Pro-balance, if you like. Along with pro-consensus and pro-fair-representation, hence this post.
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Sorry, before anyone thinks I was stirring I really didn't mean to restart something with my previous comments, I honestly had no idea of this argument. Thanks to you both for the summaries though. I'll continue to enjoy the scary solo/trad/bolt mixtures that I've always enjoyed on slate and seek out some of the newer sport style routes too. If its just a case of replacing old bolts like for like on the older stuff and some new sport routes being added to an area where there are already plenty of bolts and indeed clip ups, then what's the issue? It's great to see the quarries popular again (for locals and visitors alike) after a fair few years of being fairly empty of climbers. That people are back in there climbing both older and newer style routes can only be good I think.
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Simon,
When I think of the slate quarries I think of super long runouts above bolts, scary trad or a combo of the 2. Is most of the new stuff sport (therefore causing you to pick the photo you've chosen)?
On the breifly toched on topic of the Gogarth guide, can't wait to get my hands on it. Went to Gogarth for the first time on Saturday and loved it.
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You bloody trouble maker Fiend. ;)
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Or:
Ben, last year there was, amongst others, one major thread on UKC (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=246307&v=1) started by myself, expressing concern over the trend towards newer slate routes being predominantly sport routes, and asking what the decision process is for (re/retro/new) bolting. It all started off rather civilised but unfortunately the activists involved tended to mistake questions for accusations, and respond aggressively by dismissing those concerned about slate as being "against" their bolting efforts, thus spawning some heated and personal arguments (admittedly with a couple of other people (Paz) provoking them). The truth is....hard to find as the activists were reluctant to discuss fact/figures nor how bolting decisions were made, but eventually HoseyB did post some route stats, and the vague feeling of bolting decisions seemed to be "new routers do whatever they like".
I was pretty disappointed that otherwise respectable people responded to questions with disparaging insults. E.g. an initial post containing lines like "Whilst I appreciate and respect the efforts put into like-for-like bolting and rationalising some of the more abstract bolting choices of the past," followed by asking how consense was achieved, was responded to with comments like "an outcry by narrow-minded negative climbers", "what often seems like petty and ungrateful armchair sniping", and "this peurile thread".
Thus fuss has died down of late, BUT I noticed later that year in both Climb and Climber, the online debate was completely mis-represented in new route reports. In one magazine the report said something like this "...people continue to enjoy these routes despite some dissenting voices online", which mis-represents the strength of feeling in the thread, and in another something like "...there was some online discussion but the majority were in favour of the new sport routes" which is simply a lie as it's clear in the discussion that at the very least there's equal numbers on each 'side', but more likely (without going through post by post, but the very fact that my simple question spawned a 300 post debate rather than 30 replies saying "nah slate bolting is fine, end of story" is pertinent in itself) a majority in the online discussion who are concerned or against the new sport routes.
(I wasn't sure to mention the last issue now, but I still regret that I didn't post about it at the time as I was pretty disgusted with the new routes section writers using their position in the magazine to gloss over and falsify the debate and questions raised there-in - and I'd regret if I didn't mention it this time.)
P.S. Just in case I am "painted" as being on "side", I am not on any sides about this sort of issue. I'm not pro-bolt nor anti-bolt, I'm neutral. Pro-balance, if you like. Along with pro-consensus and pro-fair-representation, hence this post.
I've just looked through all my Climber mag North Wales scene reports for the last 12 months and the only thing I can find is the following reference to the new Dali's Hole sport routes:
"The appearance of these new lines caused a bit of a stir, but at the crag the general reaction has been nothing short of positive, with numerous repeats and much praise for the efforts of Colin (Goodey)."
That statement is true. I never met a single person at the crag who thought the new wave of sport routes or the re-equipping program was a bad thing. There were hundreds of climbers turning up in the quarries at this time. It seemed very obvious to me that the online furore was not reflected on the ground.
Fiend, throughout this whole affair you have failed to grasp the simple concept at the core of new route development. It is a creative process and one in which the first ascensionist makes decisions based upon what s/he thinks will make the best route. I happen to think that most of the new routes have been equipped well, producing good routes. The nature of much of the unclimbed rock in the quarries suits sport routes.
Anybody is free to go up there and establish designer danger routes if they want. Nobody is stopping them. They are also free to go and de-bolt anything that think is out of character or just plain crap. There has always been a tradition of experimentation in the quarries; rules have been bent, boundaries tested. Many of the old school classics were heavily chipped or altered. It's a credit to JR and his cronies that they did a good job.
But they weren't the only ones who did a good job - Nick Harms for example produced a series of classic sport routes. You may choose to dismiss these, but for a lot of people who get/got involved in slate his contribution was/is just as important as those who put up the classic runouts on Rainbow Slab.
If you want to try and understand the anger of the local activists (and I think you should) go and spend a day or two doing some re-equipping work. I've done it and it is hard and unpleasant work. After an afternoon or two hanging on an ab rope drilling I fully understood why Mark Reeves' had become so disillusioned and pissed off.
People have been predicting the downfall of British traditional climbing for decades now and still hasn't happened. I don't believe it ever will. It is just a load of knee jerk reactionary nonsense. And for the record the quarries were utterly deserted before the re-equipping campaign started.
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Simon,
When I think of the slate quarries I think of super long runouts above bolts, scary trad or a combo of the 2. Is most of the new stuff sport (therefore causing you to pick the photo you've chosen)?
Most of the new routes (but not all) are clip ups. That said, some of them are pretty spicy and involve some hair raising runouts.
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Genuine question; if people are bothered that the majority (I don't know if it is the majority or not) of new routes are bolted rather than put up as trad routes couldn't they just climb them and not use the bolts, or use only the bolts they felt were essential to protect the route? I might be completely missing the point (again)?
Mainly, I am just excited about the new Gogarth book :bounce:
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Nice idea but unfortunately but I think it changes the trad experience completely having bolts ready to clip 'just in case' even if you don't need 'em. the sense of commitment on runouts would be lost for example.
Not the only one excited bout the Gogarth guido. Might be time to dust down the rack.... :jaw:
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Not the only one excited bout the Gogarth guido. Might be time to dust down the rack.... :jaw:
Just say the word!
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...a lot of words that are addressed to some "side" I'm not a part of...
You're arguing with the wrong person here, go argue with someone else who might actually be opposed to sport routes and re-equipping per se, not me.
Jasper, I realise it would be more socially acceptable to keep quiet and let one person put forward his summary of a debate I instigated, without anyone providing an alternative perspective. However I'm the wrong person for that sort of toeing the line too.
Bear in mind I had no intention whatsoever of raising any of these issues when I posted this thread. I was talking about an inspiring photo, that is all.
Edit: To further understanding I will say one more thing - my thread and subsequent postings *may* have received more hostility because I have had a grossly exaggerated and entirely undeserved reputation for being highly opinionated and argumentative about climbing issues. This issue was a rare occasion where I was NOT strongly opinionated nor judgemental about the matter (more concerned and curious), but it could be a case of "crying wolf" as it were, maybe.
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You said you were pretty disgusted with me for abusing my position as a scene reporter to misrepresent what had happened. I made the following defence:
I've just looked through all my Climber mag North Wales scene reports for the last 12 months and the only thing I can find is the following reference to the new Dali's Hole sport routes:
"The appearance of these new lines caused a bit of a stir, but at the crag the general reaction has been nothing short of positive, with numerous repeats and much praise for the efforts of Colin (Goodey)."
That statement is true. I never met a single person at the crag who thought the new wave of sport routes or the re-equipping program was a bad thing. There were hundreds of climbers turning up in the quarries at this time. It seemed very obvious to me that the online furore was not reflected on the ground.
But you haven't answered.
Are you still disgusted? Or are you thinking that you've just accused me of doing something that I clearly didn't do? I can't remember what was written in Climb mag at the time (presumably by Mark) - maybe that is what you are referring to?
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But you haven't answered.
Are you still disgusted? Or are you thinking that you've just accused me of doing something that I clearly didn't do? I can't remember what was written in Climb mag at the time (presumably by Mark) - maybe that is what you are referring to?
Okay, to answer (I don't want to debate but equally I don't want to seem rude by ignoring questions).
(0. I said "using" not "abusing" your position.)
1. "a bit of a stir" would be what I crudely paraphrased as "some dissenting voices online", and what I was referring to as mis-representing the strength of feeling of the replies in the thread.
2. No I'm not still pretty disgusted now, I was at the time and I still don't like the way the debate went, but it's old news really.
3. Since that's what you wrote in Climber, then the other news report section which mentioned something about a majority of opinions in the debate, would be in Climb, and I regarded that as a more serious mis-representation - if I have remembered the gist of that news report mention correctly. If I haven't then of course I'll retract my mention of it.
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"The appearance of these new lines caused a bit of a stir, but at the crag the general reaction has been nothing short of positive, with numerous repeats and much praise for the efforts of Colin (Goodey)."
To be fair though, those at the crag probably would be more positive about the new sport routes, as they've likely gone there to climb them. Those less convinced are possibly climbing elsewhere.
Like for like rebolting is a great thing IMO! I'm not convinced that some people aren't getting retro fever though (argh, too many negatives in that sentence), for example see the post by callummonkey here: http://slate.wetpaint.com/thread/1059362/The+slab+below+Never+Never+Land (http://slate.wetpaint.com/thread/1059362/The+slab+below+Never+Never+Land)
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"The appearance of these new lines caused a bit of a stir, but at the crag the general reaction has been nothing short of positive, with numerous repeats and much praise for the efforts of Colin (Goodey)."
To be fair though, those at the crag probably would be more positive about the new sport routes, as they've likely gone there to climb them. Those less convinced are possibly climbing elsewhere.
Like for like rebolting is a great thing IMO! I'm not convinced that some people aren't getting retro fever though (argh, too many negatives in that sentence), for example see the post by callummonkey here: http://slate.wetpaint.com/thread/1059362/The+slab+below+Never+Never+Land (http://slate.wetpaint.com/thread/1059362/The+slab+below+Never+Never+Land)
It wasn't just at the crag. I never heard any dissenting voices at any of the BMC Cymru meetings, or in the pub, in the cafe, etc. I'm not making this up. If there really was a strong anti-bolt feeling with regard to the quarries I think I would have at least heard the odd comment outside of the confines of an internet forum.
As for the discussion on the slate wiki - nothing wrong with talking about things. Using phrases like 'retro fever' - you should get a job as a headline writer for a red top. ::)
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Internet forums never cease to create this sort of debate as I often think that things can become misconstrude.
There is also however, a definate feeling that people can promote their opinions against those of others, there is nothing wrong with that but when it gets top the point that people are insinuating that people miss report information and the like thats when it becomes silly.
The whole reason most people get into climbing is becuase of the freedom that brings. Instead of getting bogged down in the rules we have ethics to guide us. When putting up routes it is up to the the firt ascentionist to choose how they will complete the route. If you dont want to climb in that way then don't, there is no one stopping you!
The North Wales boys have been doing a great job of putting up great quality lines and also maintaining exisitng classics, for their own pleasure and also the good of the climbing community. If this is the way some people approach their efforts I can totally see why it pisses them off. It would anyone.
The new wave of creating technical desperates is great for climbing in the quarries and is a real injection back into a great style. This can only be a good thing and should be the focus of this thread rather than peoples narrow minded opinion of the scene over their. Especially when they are not activly involved in the re development programme!
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For what it’s worth I think the bolting on the slate has been judged just right. The right routes have been retroed and the right routes re-equipped like for like. The end result is a vastly improved climbing area. I think this might not have happened had the bolters been shackled to a tortuous consensus gathering process prior to approaching every route. Re-equipping is hard enough work in itself.
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Pantontino - Cheers for that. Hope you don't think I'm not making any accusations about the quarries, I'm just not convinced either way, yet - happy to keep an open mind. I'm keeping a close eye on developments anyway. I'll trust you that local voices are approving - I can't make it to the meetings in the evenings, bit far for me on a school night (the Peak ones are far enough away as it is). Don't forget though - differing views may seem to come out online, but despite claims, the web's not all full of armchair climbers (as you know, being on here yourself), nobody's a purely virtual presence. I've climbed in the slate quarries as many times as I've been to Froggatt, and nearly many times as I've been to Stanage Popular, and on top of that I've wandered round the place numerous time in the drizzle taking dozens of photos (http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=21055 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=21055)) when I'm not inspired by sun hunting at Tremadog. If you saw me there I'd say the same as I have on here, but you won't at the moment cos: 1) I've run out of inspiring routes within my ability (although I'm starting to eye a few things up again now - not the new clips ups mind), and 2) I'm wary of going and finding the place heaving, I liked the atmosphere of the place when it was deserted and eerie (and I'm far from a quarry fan!)
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p.s. Regarding like for like replacement - I'll just re-state that this is all great! And a related question - when I first climbed on slate, I was shown a few classic routes and told not to climb anything else, because they're tottering death traps with bolts that have been known to pull out (I soon learnt this wasn't always true). Now the bolts are solid, and it's well known what's a death trap and what's not, are there any intentions to up the star count a bit for the new guide? I used to only trust anything with a star, I now trust my own judgement by actually looking at the routes but some people are maybe not able to do that. When talking about slate people often say "but is it safe?" and "what's the gear like?" If some previously unstarred routes were now given a star, it might encourage more traffic and also spread the load off the classics if the place is getting busier. For example Zambesi is unstarred but a perfectly amenable trad route, and I'm not sure but I don't think 'Looning The Tube' has a star either (I'm referring to the very old guide that did have stars of course, rather than the recent ones).
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The intention is to star according to relative quality, same as is normal. There will be a reassessment though; we might even introduce minus stars for really naff eliminates or particularly rubbish routes (Wizz Bang in Bus Stop Quarry springs to mind as an obvious candidate for the crock of shite award).
I like stars in guidebooks, I think (along with action shots and pretty topos) they encourage people to explore and move away from the same old same old.
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I like stars in guidebooks, I think (along with action shots and pretty topos) they encourage people to explore and move away from the same old same old.
But isn't there a balance? Those "same old, same old" tend to be the starred routes, so how does one decide what to star in each guide?
" :-\ well this routes had three stars for 30 years now, I think the route over there should have them so it gets a bit more traffic."
I've no idea of the best solution, and also like stars. I'll always try one or two starred routes in an area but am never averse to trying out unstarred ones.
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I'm far more likely to want to climb a route after seeing a great picture of it then if it has stars, stars aren't really very inspiring in the same way a great photo is, are they?
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I'm far more likely to want to climb a route after seeing a great picture of it then if it has stars, stars aren't really very inspiring in the same way a great photo is, are they?
But the fun (for me) comes from discovering what a climb is like for yourself. Three-star routes tend to be great climbing in great positions, but then you also find yourself in some way-out places on non-starred routes.
Besides, there's only so much space/money available for pictures in guide books too, so stars are a way of compensating for not being able to have a picture of every route that might inspire people.
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slackline -
"But isn't there a balance? Those "same old, same old" tend to be the starred routes, so how does one decide what to star in each guide?"
I agree. Some routes should lose their stars when they no longer worth them, but it doesn't seem to happen. For example this should get less than three, as anyone leading at that grade is going to slip off the polish and not want to go back to Stanage Popular for three years as they'll think that all 3 star routes there are the same <ahem> http://new.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=908 (http://new.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=908)
Magpie -
As sl says - can't have photos of everything.
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I know, it's my inherent laziness showing, I tend to flick through the books and only really concentrate on the pictures a lot of the time. :-[ But then I'm also more likely to go and look in a guide after seeing a picture of a route online somewhere, I don't tend to read through books deciding on routes. I'll blame it on an aural / visual learning thing rather than laziness to save face. ;) Horses for courses, I'm in no way saying that stars are a bad idea, just that not everyone bases route decisions on them.
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Horses for courses, I'm in no way saying that stars are a bad idea, just that not everyone bases route decisions on them.
Missing out there, routes (generally) have stars for good reason.
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But then I'm also more likely to go and look in a guide after seeing a picture of a route online somewhere, I don't tend to read through books deciding on routes.
I don't tend to read guidebooks either (unless I'm organising a trip that others are coming on), or choose routes based on descriptions. I still find stars and descriptions are handy when you go to a crag though, either if don't know where to start or have done the route you went there for and still have time left. If you're me, you'll pic the most hideous looking unstarred chimney and go and climb that ;o)
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Reply to Fiend: Hello sir, I have been trying to increase the non clip up content of the new routes, with Taith Mawr; the Twll Mawr Girdle being the biggest big up yet. However I have a baby on the way, so if you want to add to the non clip up wave, then mail me for some free projects... for instance there's the line of "Stannah to hell..", and some Joe Brown handed over.
Hose
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Reply to Fiend: Hello sir, I have been trying to increase the non clip up content of the new routes, with Taith Mawr; the Twll Mawr Girdle being the biggest big up yet. However I have a baby on the way, so if you want to add to the non clip up wave, then mail me for some free projects... for instance there's the line of "Stannah to hell..", and some Joe Brown handed over.
Cool, and congratulations (on the expected child not just on the new routes). Although I'm personally more likely to go for the friendly sport routes rather than whatever detatched chimney flake car jack horrors you've found :).
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The intention is to star according to relative quality, same as is normal. There will be a reassessment though; we might even introduce minus stars for really naff eliminates or particularly rubbish routes (Wizz Bang in Bus Stop Quarry springs to mind as an obvious candidate for the crock of shite award).
I like stars in guidebooks, I think (along with action shots and pretty topos) they encourage people to explore and move away from the same old same old.
Excellent, glad to hear it, and I agree entirely (BTW, I didn't buy the recent Tremadog guide specifically because it didn't have star ratings thus not giving a convenient guide to relative route quality).
I also agree with your reasoning (that reasoning being evident in NWB guide in particular - I noticed plenty of encouragement for people to explore new areas in that), which goes along with a reassessment and according stars for pure quality not just convenience / fame / popularity etc.
P.S. For crap routes, wouldn't the black spot cover them??
Glad this thread is back on track now, phew!!
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http://new.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=311897 (http://new.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=311897)
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I am, for once, actually lost for words.
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I still think someone should've raised the point about instructors not being the best people to put up new sport routes, but clearly I couldn't have chosen a less apt example in mark.
It seems the slate scene isn't as united as you would have us believe Simon.
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It seems the slate scene isn't as united as you would have us believe Simon.
Before you get carried away with yourself Paz - we were discussing the situation of last year. Things have changed of late and I know that in the last month or two a few people have questioned the quality of some of the new routes. My view as guidebook editor is to not judge too harshly until I've actually been and experienced some of these new creations. After all, some routes look appealing, but climb very badly (remember Wizz - Bang), and others look rubbish, but climb well.
I certainly won't be condemning out of hand the people who have put up these routes until I've checked out exactly what they have done, and I don't think anybody else should either.
And I absolutely do not believe that bolts are 'bad' by default. A good quality sport route in the quarries is just as legitimate as a good quality trad route, and on the flipside, a bad sport route is just as worthless as a bad trad route. The only point when I would object to a new sport route was if it had a seriously detrimental effect upon a good quality neighbouring route. If that was the case then I would go and talk to the person who put up the new line. I guess it all depends what is at stake - if a classic route has been ruined - then fair enough the bolts should come out, but if we are just talking about a bit of overcrowding, I don't think I'm going to lose much sleep over it.
And everybody should remember, before high horses are mounted, that the quarries have always been, and will always be a place of experimentation. Sometimes experiments work, sometimes they don't.
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a bad sport route is just as worthless as a bad trad route.
Not quite. An unpopular trad route effectively disappears as soon as the chalk washes away. A sport route has a permanent physical presence that is impossible to reverse.
The quarries may be a good place for experimentation but trends inevitably spread. Folk should be wary of an attitude that in a quarry, anything goes. Respect for the rock as a precious and limited resource is something that needs to be nurtured within the community.
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a bad sport route is just as worthless as a bad trad route.
Not quite. An unpopular trad route effectively disappears as soon as the chalk washes away. A sport route has a permanent physical presence that is impossible to reverse.
The quarries may be a good place for experimentation but trends inevitably spread. Folk should be wary of an attitude that in a quarry, anything goes. Respect for the rock as a precious and limited resource is something that needs to be nurtured within the community.
Come on JB, get real! Trad routes get cleaned, have pegs or threads placed upon them, bear the scars of over used gear placements, polish etc - none of these things disappear after a rain shower.
Experimentation in the quarries dates back to the early 80s - if what you say is true (i.e. that trends inevitably spread), then the rest of the North Wales crags would have been heavily chipped and bolted over the last 25 years. As you know that did not happen.
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Not quite. An unpopular trad route effectively disappears as soon as the chalk washes away. A sport route has a permanent physical presence that is impossible to reverse.
shit trad routes which get put up, have half a dozen ascents by the FA's mates in a haze of frenzied development then left to compost don't get pollished and gearwarn though, which is I believe what JB was refering to.
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They could have rusty pegs on them, and still show evidence of heavy cleaning. My point is that it is not as b/w as JB is suggesting. A de-geared sport route, if done well (old bolt holes neatly filled etc) need not be an eye sore.
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Come on JB, get real! Trad routes get cleaned, have pegs or threads placed upon them, bear the scars of over used gear placements, polish etc - none of these things disappear after a rain shower.
We were talking about unpopular, crap trad routes that may never see a repeat weren't we? In which case none of the above is true and my point stands.
They could have rusty pegs on them, and still show evidence of heavy cleaning. My point is that it is not as b/w as JB is suggesting. A de-geared sport route, if done well (old bolt holes neatly filled etc) need not be an eye sore.
They could have yes, but its the exception. The difference is the sport route has to be de-geared - more work than putting it in, and still the rock is scarred even if it isn't an eyesore. 'Evidence of heavy cleaning' is a moot point, in my experience it is more likely on a sport route. All my trad first ascents have been done with the ethic of leaving as little impact as possible.
In terms of the spread, what I meant was we are revisiting the bolt debate here and elsewhere with the line of division having moved firmly towards bolts in the intervening years. In the eighties and nineties a big reason bolts were placed sparingly was to retained some adventure and hence avoid being chopped. We all know how Joe Brown's two pegs per pitch rule was adopted. (And yes I know they were skint).
That is no longer the case, those who talked about the thin end of the wedge are seeing it being driven in. Bolts are now accepted. We have monthly threads on UKC about the installation of ab stations in the pass. They already exist in the lakes.
I see allowing 'sub-prime' areas of rock to be bolted as a bad precedent. As is pointed out above, these may become more popular than the trad routes around them. I worry this will create more and more climbers who don't appreciate trad and feel dictated to by an increasingly small, outdated moral minority. From UKC its obvious most climbers don't understand that the act of drilling is fundamentally at odds with the act of climbing a cliff using your own skill and what the rock offers. Bolting needs to be taken seriously, just reserving the best for trad and throwing the rest to the bolters is not a wise route forward.
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It seems the slate scene isn't as united as you would have us believe Simon.
Before you get carried away with yourself Paz - we were discussing the situation of last year. Things have changed of late and I know that in the last month or two a few people have questioned the quality of some of the new routes.
OK then I won't. If the above and:
That statement is true. I never met a single person at the crag who thought the new wave of sport routes or the re-equipping program was a bad thing. There were hundreds of climbers turning up in the quarries at this time. It seemed very obvious to me that the online furore was not reflected on the ground.
are both observations from different points in time that explains the apparent contradiction, and we can still assume you've got your finger on the pulse. But you've still just seemed a little keen to dismiss anyone who speaks their mind online who you disagree with just because they've not had chance to climb at Llanberis when you were there, unless I've got that wrong. And I've seen the results of other people assuming that because they never see them at the crag but see everyone else that they're never there - when they had 9-5 jobs and were only getting out at the weekends and evenings and the person they were on about was getting up early during the week. Even when I bumped into them one christmas, but I'm a nobody and easier to ignore in real life. I digress, I'm just saying don't be quick to rely on this line of reasoning. It's not like English people with fast cars historically had nothing to do with the development of climbing in North Wales, so I don't see why we should automatically grant the locals carte blanche. And that yeah maybe me and others you mention did come out with a lot of `vitriol', but now I for one am sort of sitting back thinking, well I hate to say I told you so...
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All my trad first ascents have been done with the ethic of leaving as little impact as possible.
In the eighties and nineties a big reason bolts were placed sparingly was to retained some adventure and hence avoid being chopped. We all know how Joe Brown's two pegs per pitch rule was adopted. (And yes I know they were skint).
I see allowing 'sub-prime' areas of rock to be bolted as a bad precedent.
You may have impeccable ethics when it comes to trad routes, but lots of people don't. The welsh trad crags are peppered with rusting pegs.
Not sure about the 80s/90s thing - sport bolting was fully accepted by the mid/late 80s.
I see bolting 'sub-prime' areas of rock as a useful release of a hidden climbing resource.
As for bolt belays - I clipped an ancient bolt belay on top of Lion Rock the other day when I was climbing with my son. Made me chuckle when I thought of all the fuss 10 years back when one of the centres put bolt belays in at the top of the nearby Craig yr Undeb (Yellow Walls). At the time there was much harrumphing and they were duly ripped out, but no-one noticed the existing bolt just across the way. It's not hidden away either - just sat there on top of the cliff in a very obvious and convenient position.
What I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that I don't think there is anything to worry about. The new guide will big up the great trad routes in the quarries, whilst also bigging up the best sport routes. The current Welsh role models (Pete and Caff) are just as keen on bold trad as they are on hard sport - a 16 year old kid is likely to try and emulate them, rather than be sucked into a sport only path. Actually they might try and become the next CJD or Nodder - but where's the harm in that, the only place Nodder uses a drill is on the Mill board.
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And that yeah maybe me and others you mention did come out with a lot of `vitriol', but now I for one am sort of sitting back thinking, well I hate to say I told you so...
I think you should wait and see how this thing unfolds first.
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All my trad first ascents have been done with the ethic of leaving as little impact as possible.
All my trad first ascents have been done with the ethic of doing as little work as possible. My few sport ones too (for which someone else did most of the work).
That is no longer the case, those who talked about the thin end of the wedge are seeing it being driven in. Bolts are now accepted. We have monthly threads on UKC about the installation of ab stations in the pass. They already exist in the lakes.
I see allowing 'sub-prime' areas of rock to be bolted as a bad precedent. As is pointed out above, these may become more popular than the trad routes around them.
I'm worried that you'll get a lot of so called `trad' routes that are sport climbers idealised ideas of what a trad route should be, rather than a more natural challenge that noone's tinkered with. I think Fiend started it off with a hypothetical question about given three similar relatively gear less lines how do you decide whther to make them into a F4, a runout VS or a HVS solo. Well the results of the experiment are in - when you get 3 such adjacent routes sharing a lower off what happens is people warm up on the F4, at best pre clip the bolt on the Vs and top rope the HVS to death. So on a given crag you may as well bolt them all or have them all run out or all solos.
Simon mentioned Cheddar ages ago, when that's a special case that's been equipped to enable more warm weather access, for everyone, i.e. for you lot as well. Incidentally on the South side Intructor's aren';t permitted to use the cliffs with orgnaised groups at least, or probably all non Rocksport commercial use is banned, I forget (only 1 cliff on it's suitable anyway, if that). You just don't get the absolute hoards of tourists infesting the Slate Quarries putting themselves at risk like you do in the (other) gorge (they're all taking the train up Snowdon instead). At Cheddar now I'm reasonably content on a restored trad route on a mixed cliff to say, `well the decision's been made for me' and `the reason there's no bolt there is either cos there's a runner or because the climbing's easy enough for the run out to be tolerable' and just go for it, though I've not really done much of the hard bold trad routes yet, so for the moment this is just all talk. I know I'm not going to be getting on a horror show like how it was in the old days.
From UKC its obvious most climbers don't understand that the act of drilling is fundamentally at odds with the act of climbing a cliff using your own skill and what the rock offers.
That's not what I read into it. The majority of us easily understand the difference. A growing minority of people new to the sport might think like that. I think most've us've just got bored of bolting debates and the bright young things spilling out of the climbing walls haven't read all the threads from years ago to get up to speed, so when they start yet another one - they're just asking stupid questions anyway which is the best way to learn - a lot of us just ignore them or take the piss, and it's a bit distracting from anyone who does give a sensible definitive answer, and your youngling under attack just ends up even more entrenched in their own opinion, even when it's plainly wrong.
Wait and see what happens <paraphrased Pantontino's words>
Sure thing, will do. I actually don't have a great problem with loads and loads of shit sort routes. Becuase I have lower standards than some people and I'll climb a shit sport route anyway (I mean, it's shit, but it's not as shit as going for a run or real exercise, it's still climbing), so the other part of me's going `cool, all the more for me to go at then'. Looking forwards to your guidebook(s) too, by the way, they're looking good.
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I cant say that I'm a big fan of all these new sport routes that are being put up. Thats why I generally dont climb them (although theres a couple of gems just above Looning the Tube like Orangutan Overhang which is a diamond).
I do feel though that there is a certain degree of a "I'll bolt anything to get my name in the guidebook" attitude though which is a shame. If I was putting up a route I bloody well wouldn't want it to be a generic offering that was exactly the same as the characterless clip up next door. I would want to create a route that would be remembered by those who climbed it and provided an intense experience for someone climbing at that grade. But thats OK because its not my name that has to sit next to some forgettable rubbish. This is why I'm still waiting to find a beautiful route or line on the slate that hasnt been done yet and is Fr 6c/7a ish so I could make it into a cracking designer danger low E grade route. Si, if you have any ideas on areas to look then please let me know!
Also, I loved Whizz Bang! Found it very satisfying and a little burly (I'm not that strong).
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sport bolting was fully accepted by the mid/late 80s.
Hardly. The first sport route in the peak was put up in 1983, and the bolts were out and back in several times over the next few years. When did Frankie get bolted?
By the early nineties sport bolting was accepted on certain areas of certain crags, and above certain grades.
Mid-grade sport wasn't accepted until the late nineties, harpur hill was mid nineties remember, you could hardly call that accepted.
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Horseshoe had some uncontroversial mid grade sport stuff mid 80's didn't it? Sport bolting isn't "fully accepted" now, if you're going to state specific cases, or this discussion wouldn't be happening. Shirley? :-\
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sport bolting was fully accepted by the mid/late 80s.
Hardly. The first sport route in the peak was put up in 1983, and the bolts were out and back in several times over the next few years. When did Frankie get bolted?
By the early nineties sport bolting was accepted on certain areas of certain crags, and above certain grades.
Mid-grade sport wasn't accepted until the late nineties, harpur hill was mid nineties remember, you could hardly call that accepted.
83 is early/mid 80s. As I pointed out on that 'Moffatt/Dawes - who is god?' thread a while back a lot of big changes occurred between 83 and 86. Them was revolutionary times.
Statement of Youth 84, Malham Catwalk - 86 (in fact psuedo clip ups existed here earlier - as old aid climbs were freed by Fawcett and Gawthorpe)
Frankie was an exception.
Since when was Harpur Hill the first mid grade sport venue - what about Pen Trwyn, Horseshoe? Both of which were established in the mid 80s.
Your original post suggested that sport climbing did not become accepted until the noughties - this is nonsense. The ethical shift occurred 15 years earlier.
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This is why I'm still waiting to find a beautiful route or line on the slate that hasnt been done yet and is Fr 6c/7a ish so I could make it into a cracking designer danger low E grade route. Si, if you have any ideas on areas to look then please let me know!
Will, F6c/7a, plus a ground sweeping fall potential would not be a low grade extreme - it might even be E6!
I know of a few choice lines, but I'm hardly going to let them go. Just go for a trek around, particularly in the less visited areas and you will soon find something. There is an enormous amount of rock in the quarries. If you do make a designer danger route (or even if you make a clip up), make sure you give it a thorough cleaning and remember slate is not always the most trustworthy medium; holds can snap unexpectedly.
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Sport bolting isn't "fully accepted" now, if you're going to state specific cases, or this discussion wouldn't be happening. Shirley? :-\
I meant fully accepted at specific venues.
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Yes, I was actually agreeing with you. :lol:
My point was that if you're going to state specific cases (i.e. Harpur Hill) then of course you can move the time at which sport bolting is fully accepted up to never.
I realise it wasn't a very clear post. :guilty:
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i like the look of the possible cover at the start of the thread. thumbs up from me.
i'd be suprised to be shown a photo of either of the 8bs that i would prefer. i reckon corners make good images.
neil
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I think Will was indulging in a bit of poetic license to big up the slate quarreies. But he was also asking for it and I'm glad someone told him.
I'm still waiting to find a beautiful route or line on the slate that hasnt been done yet
So am I, but I'm not ransacking snowdonia for one either. I think a few of the people now accused of simply putting up shit new squeezed in sport routes as close to the car as possible, solely to immortalize their own knob jokes, might be interested in the gold mine of beautiful lines and routes too.
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This is why I'm still waiting to find a beautiful route or line on the slate that hasnt been done yet and is Fr 6c/7a ish so I could make it into a cracking designer danger low E grade route. Si, if you have any ideas on areas to look then please let me know!
Will, F6c/7a, plus a ground sweeping fall potential would not be a low grade extreme - it might even be E6!
I know of a few choice lines, but I'm hardly going to let them go. Just go for a trek around, particularly in the less visited areas and you will soon find something. There is an enormous amount of rock in the quarries. If you do make a designer danger route (or even if you make a clip up), make sure you give it a thorough cleaning and remember slate is not always the most trustworthy medium; holds can snap unexpectedly.
Cheers for the advice. Will bear it in mind if I ever find anything. Perhaps being a bit ambitious with the difficulty. In all honesty difficulty wouldn't really be an issue, quality would be more important. Cant wait for the guide, will make exploring further into Australia much easier.
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I cant say that I'm a big fan of all these new sport routes that are being put up. Thats why I generally dont climb them ...
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say: I don't climb 7c - 8b and therefore I've no clue how good or bad the best of these new sport routes are?
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Apols if I was unclear. I was talking more about the grid bolting that has gone on at Dali's and elsewhere rather than the more difficult ones. Obviously I aint got the skillz for them so I cant really put forward an opinion.