UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: cider nut on April 30, 2007, 10:26:35 am
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I feel really inadequate with my climbing at the moment. Last June I was pushing HVS but recently I occasionally find myself struggling up Severe's even though I never had a problem with them before, or getting 'the fear' when seconding something as if I'm a beginner again. My climbing is really inconsistent and unpredictable which is very offputting - If I can struggle on Severe's some days, and feel fine on much harder stuff on others, how can I know what to climb next time I go out? The other weekend I went to the Llanberis slate quarries and climbed really well, onsighting an HVS and all but 3 metres of a high in the grade E1 5b, and I felt really brave, but it didn't last. This weekend mostly went well, but last Wednesday I felt very scared on a steep Severe crack line even though my gear was good. I also did some fun and satisfying bouldering in font at easter, including on slabs which don't suit me, but I got nervous seconding a slab at Helsby.
I know I'm technically capable, and I know it's not related to smaller external factors like not having eaten enough that day or something or I would have had these problems in previous years, so I'd say it's purely psychological. But I can't pin it down more specifically than that. Does anybody have any thoughts? Firstly about what my problem is, and secondly about how to fix it?
I'm dubious about what people will be able to say to help when they don't know me or my climbing, but I remain hopeful!
To give a bit of background:
Grades wise: I started getting into climbing in summer 2004 having been out with friends a few times over the previous few years, then started leading in August 2004. I led my first VS in April 2005, then my first (soft touch) HVS in May 06. Yes, grades are important to me, but they're not why I climb, they're just intermediate aims. I climb because it's a personal challenge and you can't blame the rock if it goes wrong. If it does go wrong, the way you react teaches you about yourself (although I must admit I haven't used many of those lessons productively!!)
Pyshological wise (although still with grades for reference): I didn't know about the ethics of climbing until I discovered UKC, before then I'd always said I wouldn't lead, but when I found out that's what you're meant to do it appealed to my competitive nature, so I was excited to give it a go. It took me quite a while to get comfortable leading Severe, there was a bit of a mental battle as I knew I could second VS's and felt like leading put me back at square one, but I eventually got there. I skipped over HS and did a couple of VS's, but did more VS's than any other grade before I decided to move up. I'd wanted to lead my first HVS by the end of 2005 but didn't make it. , although I did one in May 06. In broad terms, and with a couple of exceptions like a great relationship, 2006 was a disaster for me - not just in climbing but personally. I didn't sort myself out until Sept/Oct when I moved to Stoke. I carried on climbing every weekend over the summer but didn't have any motivation to lead so mostly belayed, then when I got my motivation back I climbed most weekends over winter but only got half way up routes then backed off as I couldn't feel my fingers!
This year I'm pretty psyched, but I'm all over the place, I can climb well one day and pants the next. It doesn't appear to be linked to rock type (except I always have felt more confident on slate) or partners. So far this year I've climbed far more than any previous year at the same point, as I can get out in the evenings as well as weekends.
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Hi cider,
sweeping sexist statement no.1:
Generally, birds seem to take their issues with them when they climb - stuff often being in the back of your mind, and affecting how you climb.
Men seem much more able to use climbing as a complete 'off' switch, concentrating solely on the climbing and blocking everything else out.
As a result, it's possible that if you've had a 'wobbly' time emotionally, it may be coming out in you feeling a bit 'wobbly' when you climb.
(I'm assuming you're female from previous posts?)
My advice would be to not give yourself a hard time over it, just remember that you climb because you enjoy it! The competitive element is great, but don't allow your perceived lack of progress to cloud the good stuff you get from it.
You are still relatively new to the sport, and you've progressed very quickly. Just spend some time consolidating, and having fun. You'll get there!
Lu
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chill. its all about the chillin. go slacklining too, it puts you in that focused but totally zoned out at the same time mind frame which i love for trad when you know you're gonna hit the floor. personally i'd say you should make yourself lead stuff (maybe safe stuff though if your climbing's erratic) most of the time even when you dont want to. you cant push yourself uber-hard on trad day in day out and you need days on easy stuff, but lead on those days too. if you want to wimp out and just second stuff or lead an easy route then make yourself get on something harder and dont let the fear get the better of you.
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I put this down to a couple of things.....
1 - You haven't been climbing that long. I could easily substitute "Last June I was pushing HVS but recently I occasionally find myself struggling up Severe's even though I never had a problem with them before, or getting 'the fear' when seconding something as if I'm a beginner again." with "I Last June I was pushing E3 but recently I occasionally find myself struggling up HVS's even though I never had a problem with them before, or getting 'the fear' when seconding something as if I'm a beginner again. "
Seconding is always scary... all that space below your feet with no rope and gear between you and the ground - I'm happier on the sharp end most of the time.
2 - Your (climbing) partner who's propensity for introspection and climbing performance related anxiety knows no bounds - it must be catching....
Lighten up Cider Nut and just go out and enjoy it...
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I've personally found that one of the best encouragements for confronting the challenges of leading stuff near my limit is to get a bit train-spottery about it: compile tick-lists and really look into particular routes you want to do. I love trad but don't get to do much of it (I'm almost purely a boulderer by necessity rather than choice) and always feel very underprepared and unfamiliar with placing gear or actually being on rock for more than 3 moves. What often gives me the push to overcome my fears and misgivings is generally that the routes I try are ones I really want to do: classics I have read about or have been recommended or were done by someone I admire (I'm still after my first Ron Fawcet tick!).
It's a bit puerile but the prospect of ticking a route from Hard / Extreme Rock has in the past given me an "urge" that overcame excuses like fatigue and fear. E.g. I pretty much broke into the E2 grade with Darius at High Torr - a reputedly hard climb for the grade and one that I was utterly unsuited to (a 50m route for someone who only ever climbs 3 move boulder problems) because the look of the line gave me so much mojo that it overcame ... well... sense! Try to get onto stuff you really want to climb - even if the reasons are a bit daft.. maybe compile a "dream" ticklist and try and work your way up it. It might just give you that tiny push that allows you to ignore the doubts that hold you back; you'll soon find yourself having to recompile your list and add harder stuff to it!
Oh and experience of bouldering hard problems helps too. Telling yourself that the hard moves on a trad route are "sub warm-up" in relation to your bouldering can be very reassuring. Just ignore the voices in your head that mention unfortunate truths about the difference between worked and on-sight moves, the incredible weight of a trad rack, and the slight inconvenience of your arms being completely blown after spending 20 minutes trying to faff in a wire placement that has since fallen out!
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2 - Your (climbing) partner who's propensity for introspection and climbing performance related anxiety knows no bounds - it must be catching....
Ha! I see that, you bugger :spank: Although, you are, of course, right :boohoo:
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If you are feeling shit then getting up something anything anyway is personally satisfying. Otherwise I think an appreciation of
having a good fight can help. I like watching sport to get psyched, so this is kind of like Macenroe's Winning Ugly concept. You do anything you have to. Sacrifice style for the tick.
Don't back off until you have a damn good reason to do so - go up and have a look what you're backing off of or the whole exercise was pointless.
There was a Fliss Butler article from ages ago about women's climbing, but I think you can use hormones as an excuse what ever your sex is - a friend of mine who doesn't realise he's a damn good climber was discussing taking testosterone supplements! In jest I hope, as that's a lot of piss taking for anyone to deal with so just get on with it. If you're not climbing a route that's totally safe then it's a head route, and most of the things in your head I think you can put down to the route or conditions. Severe's and VS's of the same sort can be just as tiring as E1s and E3s, it's just that the holds are smaller. If I climbed a 40m vertical ladder stopping every so often to place gear, I'd be out of breath. I'm continually surprised by how infrequently you get an absense of ledges, jugs and bomber runners on E5s and E6s. Even then it's helpful to establish what your cragging grade is, that you can onsight any route of, as your steady reliable base which might well be severe, then work upwards from there.
I very rarely manage to chill out and zone in as ab says, so other than that I recommend a misplaced sense of your own invincibility or some brief recklessness, or just not thinking about things that aren't constructive.
I definitely think that that Rock Warrior's way shit isn't the be all and end all, I actually think it's distracting.
Final tip is Kareoke. Like Kiss FM it's the song that's in your head.
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To use a big word, habituation is the key. Getting used to it. I have always been much stronger psychologically than physically but even when climbing a lot I always found that after even a small lay off I had to reaccustom myself to handling risk (real or perceived). Now, coming back from two years of almost no climbing my 'head' has almost completely gone. Dropping my grade (very dramatically) and getting out more recently over the last few weeks has seen some signs of recovery. I think bouldering by itself is a bad idea, it can lead to marked discomfort in any environment that isn't manifestly risk free. Getting stronger is not bad in itself but is no way sufficient. I was weak as fuck when at my psychological strongest.
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Thanks all for the comments so far.
LucyA - Interesting thoughts (yes, I'm female), and you're allowed to make sexist statements as another female ;) (well, I'm assuming you are too!) I'm not sure if my climbing issues can be related to previous personal ones, as I've been feeling on top of everything since October. I suppose it's possible, as the time inbetween was winter, so although I found my feet emotionally, maybe I haven't found my feet with climbing again yet. I have climbed quite a lot so far this year though, more than in previous years as I said, so that throws doubt on the theory again?
abarro81 - I have a slackline, but I get a bit bored on it because I never improve! Plus I couldn't take it to the crag, as if I was slacklining and others were climbing, I'd just want to climb! :S
Falling Down - "Your (climbing) partner who's propensity for introspection and climbing performance related anxiety knows no bounds - it must be catching" LOL Fair comment, and something I've actually considered, and even mentioned it to him. It could account for climbing a lot less smoothly, but surely can't be the complete answer for my inconsistent days out? Although he was present on most of the days I got scared, and was absent on my brave days. Hmmm. (Who are you by the way, can't tell from the username? or haven't we met?)
moose - I have lists already, but whether I do the routes on them is still entirely down to how I feel on the day.
Paz - I'm a bit confused what your point is? As for the backing off thing: I normally only back off if I'm freezing cold, otherwise I'm pretty stubbon and continue, but in bad style (mentally more than physically)
andy popp - I've been out climbing far more this year than in any previous year though?
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i didnt mean going slacklining at the crag - more going lining in general as something fun to do that also help tune your head to being in a nice state of mind.. also, climb with people who have good heads - they'll chill you out a lot more on the routes.
paz - who was talking about taking testosterone? anyone i know?
:off:3 of us may come back to brizzle for a short day on sat as i need to be back in ox by 7 - fancy unknown/upper wall for the day?
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Regularity and frequency are important but its also about going back to starting points (almost), small steps and small victories. I was thinking about this and I think expectation is the death of climbing well (by which I mean fluidly, competently, and in a relaxed way irrespective of grade) for most people. Forget expectations. I had a good evening on Friday, partly because at the start of the session I climbed very well (see above) on a route that is very easy for me, which I've done loads of times and on which I never struggle. It was enough to set me up.
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A fair comment, but it hasn't occurred to me to go back to starting points, and not sure it would even after your suggestion because a) even when I lost motivation I never totally stopped climbing, and b) I'm still climbing as hard as before, just on the days inbetween I'm climbing pants! Maybe I need to check where abouts I'm consolidated, but I hate the thought of a backwards step, even if it's in order to go forward...
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>but I hate the thought of a backwards step, even if it's in order to go forward...
I think that you may have hit the nail on the head. I have to take 'backwards' steps with climbing all the time. The point I think Andy Popp is making is that they aren't backwards at all. The routes climbed might be lower in grade terms, but, if you are climbing well, fluidly and enjoying it, that means you are far from underperforming, in fact you are climbing better rather than harder.
Right now I'm "back" at HVS... when I was happily leading E3's last Summer. A few weeks ago I was "back" at VS/HVS and spent two weekends really enjoying going out doing 10 routes or so of that grade.. some of them were hard (Hen Cloud...) for me too but I didn't beat myself over the fact that I wasn't cruising them. I really enjoyed the climbing and the fact that it was challenging. I did my first E2 of the year a couple of weeks back and that was a big 'small' victory....
Andy is on the money when he says that Expectation is a big impediment to climbing well and is very different from Desire. Expectation carries with it a sense of false entitlement and puts your head in the future so to speak .. Desire on the other hand anchors you in the present.. if that makes sense :-[
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Wise words from FD and Andy. Expectations can be the death of a good day. Last week I fell off seconding the first rout of the day, an HVS I fully expected to cruise up, because I don't think I was concentrating as well as I should and I thought it'd be pretty straight forward. Not so. Straight after I lead a harder HVS in good style so was pretty pleased. The difference was that I no longer expected anything, as I was conscious that I'd fallen on the last one.
How to you get rid of your expectations when you may have seen someone just do the route easily or its within your grade or you climbed well on the last route? Thats the question.
Andy/FD, any more advice? :please:
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I was thinking about this and I think expectation is the death of climbing well (by which I mean fluidly, competently, and in a relaxed way irrespective of grade) for most people. Forget expectations.
Very nicely put Mr Popp - consider yourself duly wadded for such wisdom..
To Cider.
I know what you mean about taking that backward step as I have been thinking that I really should be leading HVS comfortably for a while now but just have not had the head for it. I led my first HVS about a year ago when I had led only a few VS's and then getting the second in a few months later but it has since taken me till last week to get my third done. The thing is that it came when it was ready and I deliberately chose one that suited my style and it is only now that I think the HVS grade is starting to open up for me though it is going to take a while before I feel competent at anything the grade can throw at me. There are also going to be a fair few days when HVS seems a long way away and I am climbing like a top roping punter at Stanage Popular End but those are the days when I am going to have to back off or utter a few more Sharma-easque power screams and profanities to help me get to the top. :)
bluebrad
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I think the first line of your original post says it all Cidernut, no-one should feel inadequate about their climbing. Its about letting go a little bit. I've always maintained that if I've climbed hard then its been by accident rather than design. I've called a bullshitter for saying this but am sure its basically true. It doesn't mean you can't have ambitions or be psyched (I can be very psyched) but I've never done tick lists and all that. But anyone fairly new to climbing or looking to improve should bear in mind this is all from the perspective of someone who, after nearly thirty years climbing, still loves it as much as ever but is well past their peak and coming to terms with the fact that they'll never climb as hard as they used to. That might be why its easier for me to let go a little.
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Ben Moon used to use that Bruce Lee statement along the lines of 'consciousness of self is the greatest hindrance to the proper execution of all physical activity.' or something like that. Basically, once you start to worry too much about how you are performing, then you find you perform badly. I had a depressing start of the year too, feeling crap and perceiving that my peers were climbing really well and I wasn't. It took a lot of Back pedaling to get back to where I wanted to be. You need to chill out, start at the beginning again and steadily bring it back up. Fitness changes very little really, mindsets can fluctuate massively. You are half way there now as atleast you've identified the problem. Good luck.
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re the "binding-up" that can result from too much expectation. I recall Chris Sharma on Dosage 1, repeatedly falling off the same move on Realisation for session after session, talking about how he felt that the key was really wanting to do it... but not wanting it too much. Okay he sounded stoned but he was probably right - to do anything hard you have to be really motivated but if this is translated into pressure it can be a negative influence.
Sports science books talk about "arousal levels" (phhnnaarr!) in the same context. A high level of "arousal" can produce higher levels of pure physical performance. But climbing is a complex activity where a half unconscious "grace" often has to be accessed and combined with conscious decision making and the pure physical strength... so too much "psyche", whilst enabling you to bear down like a beast, can bugger up your flow.
Frankly though I suspect a lot of the problem is that the HVS grade is involved.... a good HVS is uncomfortable for everyone! The grade is the home of some incredibly burly climbing that, if your strength is in your fingers rather than your shoulder / bicep beef, can often feel a damn sight more physically draining than stuff grades several harder (e.g. Suicide Wall at cratcliffe felt like the living bloody end for me a couple of weekends ago).
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I think the words "paralysis by analyisis" apply to both of you. Go out and climb. Forget about what you ware hoping to do or should be doing, just tune in to what you want to be doing. If you are feeling strong and psyched go with it. If you are not and are having an off day, cruise. The main idea of the whole exercise is that you are meant to be deriving some enjoyment from it. And remember at your stage of the game any time spent on the rock is good time, regardless of what grade you are climbing at.
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Above all don't wobble
Read Erosion you willl see if your heart is in the right place
DON't be ashamed to back off things its all part of learning feeling your way into this game
DOn't be overcome by adrenilin, especially when you top out - whats that all about - the victory of ego perhaps
Focus on breath, and Om Mani Padme Om
Just push past you edge slowly and all will be coming
THe rush for excellence or grades is an illusiory trip of our times, and its the harder faster culture we find ourselves manifested in and frankly pretty stuck and seemingly diggin ourselves a bigger hole, still it's all part of the game
i would focus more on the moment than worry about results ultimately though goals are nice to attain also.
Bon chance.
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There is more wisdom in this thread than in, well, a very wise thing.
I'm glad to hear that everyone else finds it tough, and has those days when the little voice in your head is saying "you really don't want to fall off now - imagine what might happen - ooh look, there's a ledge you might smack into, best not worry about it though because your gears so crap that you'll probably fall all the way anyway".
I haven't climbed trad for ages, but I am getting very excited about the prospect of getting out lots over the next few weekends. The problem with getting excited about it all is that you start thinking about what routes you might end up on and, in the comfort of your living room with a glass of wine in hand, it's pretty easy to imagine yourself on something difficult. Move forward a few days, and there you are wobbling around, pumped stupid and wishing that you had chosen something slightly more amenable.
I think this battle with expectation is the key, but I haven't actually thought about it much before. My worst sport climbing trip by a mile was after a winter of hard training and I was itching to climb something hard (well, for me). Right from the start I found myself floundering, but rather than give in and pick easier routes I just kept telling myself that I shouldn't be finding it so hard, etc, etc. I ended up with a pair of knackered elbows in a state of utter dejection. The trouble is that when you've put the work in / time in / whatever, you do expect to be a bit better than last time. And if you have a competitive spirit then it's not easy when you find yourself back at square one. I'm all for going out and enjoying the climbing irrespective of grade, but when you go out for a day like that and get spanked on something you've cruised in the past then it's easy to get negative about it.
On a related subject, I was discussing with a friend about a particular mental approach which it turns out that we have both experimented with independently, to our cost. We both found ourselves presented with a particular challenge that seemed a touch too frightening for our nearly 30 "maybe it's time to stop doing stupid things" mentality. In Alex's case it was whether or not to ski off a cliff, and in my case it was trying out an enormous dirt jump gap thing that I'd built on a whim in my garden. The approach that we both came up with was to calmly explain to the voice of reason that we did this kind of thing all the time when we were kids, and nothing ever went (very badly) wrong then. This miraculously did the trick, and off we went. He crashed on landing and knocked himself out, and spent the next couple of days with fairly nasty concussion. I flew into the air, smacked my front wheel into the back of the transition and landed in a very painful heap with a large gash in my abdomen where I had contacted my stem with great force. I think the moral of the story is that sometimes trying to prove inane points to yourself is not a good idea...
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... surelly conquering inanity is what is all about
conquering self and one's shadow is key
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i would disagree with that PT
embracing the impermanence and fragility of existence frees one
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embracing the impermanence and fragility of existence frees one
Exactly. Climbing can illuminate this paradox very powerfully. In accepting risk we assert our will to live. Where's Houdini when you need him?
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i think understanding oneself and testing ones limits is important. That's why when you find yourself in a situation where the more rational voice in your head is encouraging you to stop and think, it would be prudent to consider similar previous experiences and, if you think that you might end up pushing yourself towards or even beyond your limits, how you think you're going to deal with it. that is surely what it's all about, and that's why pushing yourself is so interesting. conversely, choosing a goal that might or might not be totally beyond you and then putting your hands over your ears and singing very loudly when the voice of reason suggests an alternative plan of action is just plain stupid...
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To Andy, FD and bigphil -
My only expectation is the consistency I had before, I never 'expect' to get up routes near the top of my grade but I do at Severe. A lot of these replies concentrate on how to fix my problems, but my other question was why is it happening, and I think it's important for me to pin that down before I can really fix it. I'm not disregarding the advice here, I'm listening to it all, but I'm trying to work out what's relevant to me, as hopefully I should be the best person to tell that.
To bluebrad (and all in fsact as it's important) -
Yes, sure, but you reply as if my question was 'why can't I climb HVS' rather then 'why is my climbing so inconsistent when it never used to be. I wouldn't mind if all I could climb was HS as long as it was HS every time I went out, as I could consolidate there again and build up.
To Andy -
"I think the first line of your original post says it all Cidernut, no-one should feel inadequate about their climbing. Its about letting go a little bit."
The thing is though, something's changed, and I feel like it'll hold me back until I can work out what it is.
To AndiT -
"feeling crap and perceiving that my peers were climbing really well and I wasn't"
lol I know that feeling!
"You are half way there now as atleast you've identified the problem"
I think I'm far from identifying the problem! All I've done it spot some symptoms. Normally once I can identify a problem, I'm fine to fix it.
To moose -
You sound like MacLeod, who I respect.
To SA Chris -
"If you are not and are having an off day, cruise."
But on my off days, even if I do easy stuff, I'm still scared!
So, to summarise, any more thoughts except for expectation and back-stepping? Particularly as to the 'why', rather than the 'how'?
(I haven't read page 2 yet, have to go back to work)
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you're a wimp?
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It's because of a universal constant;
SHIT HAPPENS
If it was easy everyone would do it.
If it's a consistency you don't have any more, it's clearly not a consistency.
Let's face it continually exposing oneself to danger for enjoyment is not exactly a sensible thing in the first place. It's no surprise eveyone has up and down days, periods of self doubt and stress.. I reckon it's best to shrug off the down days and don't dwell on them, and hold the memory of the up days as clearly in your mind as much as possible.
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Apologies for being a bit blunt here but there seems to be a lot of asking "why" here to be honest Cider Nut - are you sure that you aren't just over-analysing this and looking for some answer that is probably going to elude you and even if you do figure it out prove to be useless?
Just get out there and climb and do your best to enjoy it - if you get scared then you get scared - it is how you deal with it that counts not the why.
bluebrad
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It is what it is for you and how one deals with it
"embracing the impermanence and fragility of existence frees one"
Whats the difference Soapy between above and below? The formless is beyond words so lets snot get tied up in jinxy pinxy words.
".. surelly conquering inanity is what it is all about
conquering self and one's shadow is key"
Peace
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Apologies for being a bit blunt here but there seems to be a lot of asking "why" here to be honest Cider Nut - are you sure that you aren't just over-analysing this and looking for some answer that is probably going to elude you and even if you do figure it out prove to be useless?
I'm going to be blunt too..
Cidernut - You've had considered responses from at least 5 people, many of whom have more than 20 years climbing experience up to the high E grades and sport grades. All of us have said ' yeah - that happens to me too....' in various different ways.
It's pretty bleedin' obvious that this (inconsistency, fear, fear of failure, fustration, doubt - whatever you want to call it..) is a universal characteristic of the rock climbing experience as much as consistency, excitement, joy, overperformance and satisfation are.
I dunno.. maybe go and pay Neil Gresham 300 quid to chuck yourself off a few sport routes in Kalymnos - he might be able to help?
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I think you just need to stop worrying so much. There are a hundred different reasons why you might or might not climb well on any given route or on any given day. Just focus on the longer game and stop fussing over the detail so much. You just need lots and lots of mileage, on lots of different rock types in lots of different scenarios, and as often as your lifestyle or body can bear. Sooner or later you'll lock into a groove and you'll be flowing up routes.
The times in my life when I've climbed really well (stop sn**gering at the back) have always been after sustained periods of regular cragging. I do believe it is that simple.
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:oops: I should have added a smiley to that last comment so here's two to make up for it :) :)
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Cidernut - You've had considered responses from at least 5 people, many of whom have more than 20 years climbing experience up to the high E grades and sport grades. All of us have said ' yeah - that happens to me too....' in various different ways.
Indeed, and I'm listening carefully. However, I think it would be wrong just to accept 'everything' without working out whether it applies to me, especially since not everybody is saying the same thing, or they're saying it in different ways. My brain's a little slow, I can't work out what applies to me straight away, but I do have quite a good gut instinct so I ask more questions to judge off my reactions. Just because I haven't said 'oh yes, good point' doesn't mean I'm not thinking it, but if I said that it could possibly kill the thread and I wouldn't get any more comments!
I dunno.. maybe go and pay Neil Gresham 300 quid to chuck yourself off a few sport routes in Kalymnos - he might be able to help?
I wondered about that before I posted, not Gresham but a lesson. Then realised an email to a trusted friend would be cheaper, and I posted the same question here out of interest.
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bluebrad -
The "Why" is important. If you just fix the symptoms of a problem it'll always be there in the background. ;)
Falling down -
P.S. Nobody on here really knows me, and yet nobody asked me any questions to get to the bottom of the problem... Did I really give all the info required to give a relevant answer? There may be something I missed (not on purpose of course) but it may be critical. Which is another reason why I made comments/questions back, to get more knowledge out of those with experience. :)
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SOLO FLOW
Classic solos at Froggatt
The aftermath leaves silence
But not entirely
When is it I am still?
Fleeting glances
Amidst moves
Of utmost commitment
I hear nothing
But the inside
Of my head rattle
The waves of wind
And the leaves lapping
Are beyond my thought
Awareness precise, focused
Bodily sensations
Alert to fear
Negative mind arises
Push it away
And commit to Faith.
14th May 2003
The thing is CIder Nut you need a combo of nuts
Body, and mind are crucial, then the spirit of being can hold you stronger.
INternal and external are all iimportant factors just learn
Learn about yourself this is the only way people can only point the way
And only you can do it for yourself
Why do you want to improve?
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And only you can do it for yourself
Why do you want to improve?
Well, Cidernut, if nothing else you've got PATRuL to make sense, quite an achievment (actually meant seriously, I'm going to wad him for those last two lines.) It may true that we don't know you but I'm not sure we can be blamed for not asking you potentially very personal questions. May be we were just being sensitive. You seem to be searching for quite deep-rooted explanations. And yes, you probably did need to give all the relevant information if you were to get useful answers. I think everyone responded very positively and openly and drawing on the best resource they had available, their own experiences.
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How much of these feelings of failure/dissatisfaction come from the grade? You seem to feel like you should be able to do grade so-and-so comfortably. On a route you are finding tough the fight can turn from doing the climb into a struggle to salvage some ego. If you reckon you should be cruising HVS (random example) and find one that is a real fight, surely that is to be celebrated? Are we climbing just to find the easy ones? In some respects getting 'better' means you have to go climb harder grades to get the same feeling, the same challenge, the same reward you used to get leading VDiff. So moving through the grades is arbitrary and futile in terms of the climbing experience. Grades can kill the enjoyment of the thing if you use them as a measure of you rather than just beta.
I might even believe a small percentage of that waffle myself.
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It could also be said that there isn't always an exact WHY. Risking life and limb for no particular reason is basically stoopid and your body is reminding you of this in myriad ways. Maybe you are not experienced yet at the myriad ways creating an atmosphere within yourself where your bodys reservations about the activity are calmed, or become ignorable and don't effect your enjoyment of climbing.
Lots of people have suggested stragagies they have found usefull for creating this environment within themselves. As you become more experienced maybe you will find your personal reasons that cause you to suffer from low confidence etc, and work out your own stratagies for dealing with them.
The bottom line is though, you are only just at the beginning of your climbing journey. Stop anyalysing and find ways to climb that are rewarding. If it means climbing "only" VDiff for a year, then so what!. All that matters is that you enjoy climbing.
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It may true that we don't know you but I'm not sure we can be blamed for not asking you potentially very personal questions. May be we were just being sensitive. You seem to be searching for quite deep-rooted explanations. And yes, you probably did need to give all the relevant information if you were to get useful answers. I think everyone responded very positively and openly and drawing on the best resource they had available, their own experiences.
I wasn't criticising, was just trying to justify my responses as I think they came across as dismissive. All help is welcome and taken on board, honestly :)
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It could also be said that there isn't always an exact WHY. Risking life and limb for no particular reason is basically stoopid and your body is reminding you of this in myriad ways. Maybe you are not experienced yet at the myriad ways creating an atmosphere within yourself where your bodys reservations about the activity are calmed, or become ignorable and don't effect your enjoyment of climbing.
Lots of people have suggested stragagies they have found usefull for creating this environment within themselves. As you become more experienced maybe you will find your personal reasons that cause you to suffer from low confidence etc, and work out your own stratagies for dealing with them.
Interesting comment, and well written - I will ponder on it...
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Someone else mentioned HVSs requiring the type of beef that took me ages to develop and now take for granted, but did you not answer your own question?
You climbed well on Slate, but not on steep Severe cracks. Phrase that again in terms of angles of steepness, and factor in some technique. We need more data to feed in to the UKB supercomputer.
Then there's all this unknowns angle - the unknown's kind of what makes it an adventure to me - if I can focus on `wow what might happen next?' then it's kind of relaxing.
Even when I've dropped my grade, I sometimes secretly think, bloody hell this is a bit hard for VS, when I'm a bit stuck, but it's a trap you need to avoid, especially when grading way below your limit. It comes from being complacent. Expecting to do something is not the same as expecting to piss something. When a grade's not at your limit then it might not mean anything to you, so you don't have the same desire to climb it. But actually I like this, and usually some sort of `professional' pride or stubbornness can spur me on in that situation. It might be a bit Dark Side, or negative, but if not wanting to be seen to fail in front of your mates gets you up something then fuck it, it works, that's what's important.
P.S. No I don't have a point. I can't just magic them up like that. It's just showing off. If we can get you climbing again then you won't be bothered about the why.
P.P.S It's not just about fun, it's about way more than that.
ab - I should've thought you've met him yes, but it would be very unfair of me to name that half Viking. He didn't mean it, it was more an example of how climbers come out with some right shite when they've just failed, and maybe they should bare it in mind themselves that they need to try harder when they're next on route and it's not going to plan.
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Someone else mentioned HVSs requiring the type of beef that took me ages to develop and now take for granted
I think that was me. On recent crag outings I have climbed routes in the VS - E2 range and often found the HVSs to be the biggest struggle purely due to brute force and calories consumed - it's a strengths and weaknesses thing. The E2s have generally played to my strengths - technical with crimpy difficulties. In contrast the HVSs have been "old skool classics" often chosen for historical mojo rather than suitability or a love of that style: steep Brown / Whillans routes etc with lots of unavoidable beef and jammin'. Definitely not my strong point as I am built like a cruel child's mockery of a man that's been made from pipe-cleaners - can hang off pretty small holds for ages but cannot move between even the juggiest of holds without elaborate footwork. At the risk of sexist generalisations I suspect that the OP, being female, suffers from a similar lack of pure beef and also performs better on the crimpier stuff.
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With your historical mojo thing, that's kind of what I was getting at saying it's more than fun. At the time it can be fucking painful, but afterwards, beefy climbing, on your classic HVSs especially, is pretty satisfying.
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All you people jumping on the blunt bandwagon would do well to bear in mind what happened in 2004...
(http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hqylss/2006-04/27/xin_05040327090930065639.jpg)
As much as we want cider nut to become a consistent HVS climber, the last thing anyone wants is the return of this dismal little twerp.
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You climbed well on Slate, but not on steep Severe cracks.
That's just one example, I also climbed badly/with the fear on sandstone and grit at a variety of different angles!
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Hi all,
Well I went out for a last minute evening climbing session tonight as the weather was lush. I'd wanted to go back to Aldery Cliff where I went last night as it's the first time I've led on limestone since last August and enjoyed it, but I couldn't get a partner there so met somebody as Windgather instead.
I was a little apprehensive in case the grit was warm or other things that may get in the way, but I kept all the thoughts from this thread in my mind and stayed nice and chilled out - after all there isn't anything major I wanted to climbed at Windgather so I wasn't psyched out by the prospect of any leads, and it was a nice evening to just be out.
I soloed 4 Severes (as well as a VD and D), led North Buttress Arete Direct VS, and seconded a steep HVS, all without any trouble, and enjoyed them all. It might just be a one off again, but I like to think I helped my mental state along this time, instead of it being in the right zone just by chance.
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Erm, Sam makes sense too
There's bundles of joy, fear, and wobbles of mind on all types of routes
John Dunne reckons we need the buzz of a scary route to remind us of oour ancient aggressive routes
But we have a choice in life always if even only in our response
OUr so called 'closest relatives', besides bears, (yes boys the yeti is our ancient relative too)
are the bonobo and the chimpanzee
This equates to love and war, the bonobo = love - a choice we so often fail to make
the chimp = war - a very aggressive and territorial animal
So you can either stay at home and relax or go oout and get freaked
Both are great climbers and neither climb for the grade
Sharma the charma of his snake is pretty close to the bonobo
And i think i'll cop oout on the later and let you make your own comparisions
But the Cat Walk at Malham can be quite aggressive and territorial
Meeow over and out
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<Updates logbook in true trainspotter style>
So that makes 108 routes this year so far, 25 of those onsights, on sandstone, slate, grit (quarried and natural), limestone (quarried and natural), Basalt and Churnet pebbles. And perhaps this weekend volcanic in the Lakes. Now who was it said climb on as many rock types as possible... ;)
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P.P.S It's not just about fun, it's about way more than that.
Aye, it's not about fun, it's about enjoyment. Deriving enjoyment, in whatever form you want it to be, from what is, after all, a pretty perverse pasttime.
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"This year I'm pretty psyched, but I'm all over the place, I can climb well one day and pants the next. It doesn't appear to be linked to rock type (except I always have felt more confident on slate) or partners. So far this year I've climbed far more than any previous year at the same point, as I can get out in the evenings as well as weekends."
Climbing is becoming a bigger part of your life. When this happens it is hard not to attach a greater part of your ego to it.
Going from someone who climbs occasionally, then regularly, then feeling oneself to be 'a climber', must change the way you perceive yourself at the activity. The more of yourself you invest in something the harder it is to accept that some days you will be shit on rock, and dependant on your nature you may forget to hold on to the days when the sun shined out of your arse and you cruised.
Rich x
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There have been lots of interesting and useful replies to this thread and I have been following them closely.
I only have a couple of things to add...
Firstly I was at Pex the other day, watching a young kid trying to top-rope The Web. He was struggling dismally to use the required bridging technique (incidentally, nut, you should go do this route, it's great bridging with good pro and good rests) and to heed any of the advice offered by his father / minders / instructors / whoever they were - and becoming increasingly irate and agitated. At one point one of the adults suggested...
"If you put the same energy you're putting into having that paddy into climbing the route, you'd be up it by now!"
Which is probably something I should bear in mind. Maybe it will be useful for cider nut too?
And secondly....someone (Popp or Pantontino....or was it Poppontino?) mentioned something about looking at the bigger picture. This is something I've been musing on recently and I think it can be useful to split your view of your climbing and how it is in TIME into two ways. Ignore the middle ground, the mid-term goals, the progression in the foreseeable future (well, don't ignore them, have goals, but don't focus so much on them). Instead focus on:
The long term - i.e. your climbing over a period of years, realise the time you have to progress and to climb and realise with dedication you can and will use that time and you can be patient and allow yourself to progress without forcing it on yourself (but obviously TRYING is important).
The short term - i.e. the route you are on now, even the move you are on now. Let go of any particular move or particular climbs "role" in your progression or your current climbing state, and do what it is you're doing at present to the best of your ability.
Look near....or look far...to find the answers.
Maybe.
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Cheers Rich, another interesting point.
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Well, I went out last night and lead an HVS! When I arrived I wasn't much in the mood for climbing having done lots this week so far, but the line looked great so I had a go. Plus it was the easiest thing on the crag. I had to get a little beta because I couldn't work out where it traversed and was getting a little distressed, but did the moves ok after that and held it together. So even though this thread wasn't about me climbing HVS, the thoughts I'd had about getting my consistency and confidence back meant I felt able to have a go at it, and succeeded. So thanks everyone!
I've had a lot of thoughts about my climbing, linked to this thread, can't write them now as am off to work but if anyone's interesting what's occurred to me, I'll post them over the weekend.
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Okay, well I've decided to post my thoughts anyway, even though this thread has kind of died!
To start off with I wrote down the trips when I had my bad days (when I experience fear or my mind was not in the right place), and also the trips when I had a really good and productive time, and had a look to see what links them. I had an inspriation that perhaps the days I had a bad time were when I'd gone with specific routes in mind (working off the expectation idea), but that didn't hold true, it was half and half for both the good days and the bad. There was also an equal spread of weekend versus evenings trips, and while a lot of the 'bad' days were when I climbed with my partner, not all of them were. So that didn't help, but while I've been out climbing this week, after I read the thread, I was able to think more clearly and also see what I'm thinking when I'm actually climbing...
Thought 1
Because my brain takes a while to process stuff, I often don't realise I'm enjoying a route until afterwards. This means my feelings while I'm on it will be taken from my current thoughts of the day and the environment I'm in. Sometimes the route really does get through to me though, and I whoop when I get to the top, so next time that happens I'll work out why that route was more special to me.
Thought 2
I'm get terrified when I lead indoors (because of the feeling of falling, not because of objective danger - obviously there's isn't much of that), outdoors I've normally been fine. As FD suggested (and I agreed) it's possible (quite likely!) that I've picked up some introspection while leading trad off my partner, which makes me dither on routes, and then my indoor fears start to creep in. It might benefit me to go on a sport climbing trip, as I push myself much more at my limit then - I can then find out if my problems are fear based, motivation based, or logistics based (see next thought). I haven't climbed sport for a year!
Thought 3
Another reason for random fears being allowed to creep in, is that now climbing is a lot more accessible to me (as richdraws hinted at), I don't have to stress about fitting routes in, so I can relax. That's a point that took a while to occur to me, as I would have thought my issues would stem from putting myself under more pressure, rather than less (especially with everybody talking about expectation). However, I have put myself under pressure of a different sort, and this might well be the hidden key that I forgot to mention (not intentionally) - I moved up to Stoke in September, and the evenings were just getting too short and damp to get out after work. I spent the whole winter waiting excitedly for spring so I could climb in the evenings and explore the local area. Finally the spring arrived, and I'm as excited as ever at living close to rock. As it happens, evening climbing suits me very well as I can climb with a variety of people, and I'm always happy with just one of two leads in a session (I sometime struggle to lead for a whole day, as feel like I'm pushing my luck), BUT - because I'm not used to it, and spent the whole winter waiting perhaps its thrown me out of kilter a bit.
No doubt somebody will say i'm still over-analysing, but once I've started I've got to follow it though (I'm quite stubbon, often the only thing that gets me up routes!). Now I've identified some possible issues, I'll do what I normally do and let the solution present itself naturally (and of course bear the tips from here in mind, to encourage it along).
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Glad you've been able to take something positive from it and good effort on the HVS.
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Let me quote Wilde: "Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative."
That is true for athletic performance as well. It is well known that the only way to attain truly consistent athletic performance is by being consistently bad.
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Glad you've been able to take something positive from it and good effort on the HVS.
Thanks. It was too good to last though, on Saturday I had my worse 'bad day' yet! Still, I think I've tracked down the cause of it a bit more successfully (to do with climbing with the partner, and not being in the right frame of mind, like I have an 'us' entity and a 'me' entity and I'm only able to climb in the former otherwise I can't focus, that kind of thing), my thoughts above were interesting but possibly red herrings. I did half of another HVS at Witches Quarry today, but then the rock type changed and I was dubious about the gear and the next moves, so I backed off as we only had a half day and no time for faffing. Still, I did some nice, hard moves and it's best to keep trying hard routes I guess, rather than just being scared of them.
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Let me quote Wilde: "Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative."
That is true for athletic performance as well. It is well known that the only way to attain truly consistent athletic performance is by being consistently bad.
Sensible words. From both Wilde and your bad self.
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then the rock type changed
[/quote]
From what into what?! If I'm dubious about the gear then I just pack in as much as possible, then have a look above so I -know- what I'm up against. You can never have too many nuts in. You've probably got to be in the mood for bold bits, but they're de rigeur where I'm from, even on the sport routes so I'm used to them.
I've had some small success recently after a winter of backing off, grabbing drawers and yelling take too much, but this has probably got more to do with choosing conventional routes instead of esoteric choss. I always put this down to a particular route itself or conditions. You should be able to haul up a wall of jugs and nut slots any day of the week, surely?
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From what into what?!
Well, not so much type but style. It changed from small, crimpy, crossly holds, into large, chalky, slippy holds. Obviously there was more to it than just that, but I was summarising. I'd been enjoying the bold, bouldery style of climbing, but when the holds got bigger (and also less positive), my brain let go of the focus a bit! Plus it had started to rain etc. I did go up and down a bit, but enough was enough. Anyway, this thread wasn't about specific routes ;)
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There's a lot of useful stuff here but to add my two peneth; only lead, try and avoid seconding till you break the cycle. Have you got a mat? Go out on your own and do some easy solo-ing.
Obviously I don't know you from Adam so this might not work for you. :shrug:
J :)
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There's a lot of useful stuff here but to add my two peneth; only lead, try and avoid seconding till you break the cycle. Have you got a mat? Go out on your own and do some easy solo-ing.
Obviously I don't know you from Adam so this might not work for you. :shrug:
J :)
I don't actually do much soloing at all to be honest, since my main partner climbs a lot harder so abs for gear. I'm also wary of soloing/bouldering on my own in case I get into trouble - I can't focus enough - although haven't tried it much. I don't have a mat but considered buying one, so maybe if I do I'll get out on my own more!
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For getting into soloing you should go and do all of the really easy routes at the end of Burbage North - there is nothing harder than a VDiff there but there is some OK stuff there which is made a lot better for being soloed. Birchen is another favourite for a bit of easy soloing though it does have the disadvantage of being far too popular.
As for focus - the thought of falling off and hitting the ground cures that problem for me but if I am out on my own I always try not to do a move if I am not 100% sure that I can reverse it.
bluebrad
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For getting into soloing you should go and do all of the really easy routes at the end of Burbage North - there is nothing harder than a VDiff there but there is some OK stuff there which is made a lot better for being soloed. Birchen is another favourite for a bit of easy soloing though it does have the disadvantage of being far too popular.
As for focus - the thought of falling off and hitting the ground cures that problem for me but if I am out on my own I always try not to do a move if I am not 100% sure that I can reverse it.
bluebrad
Oh I've done plenty of soloing, just not a big fan of doing it on my own! In fact, last year I think I soloed too much, and this year I'm trying to focus on onsighting - I'm only allowed to solo for a warm up, or after I've led something, or it I just end up at a soloing crag, I'm not allowed to solo routes just because they're there and I can.
As for Burbage North - that's the crag I've been to most in the Peak and I keep vowing never to go back. I've soloed End Slab, Ender, Endste, End Buttress and Amazon Gully at the far end if they're the ones you mean.
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What about onsight soloing?? :whistle:
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pedant.
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In fact, last year I think I soloed too much, and this year I'm trying to focus on onsighting - I'm only allowed to solo for a warm up, or after I've led something, or it I just end up at a soloing crag, I'm not allowed to solo routes just because they're there and I can.
this reads like your climbing is a bag of rules.its ok to have targets but if they cause you so much stress and anxiety you might as well be at work.
do what you feel like after you've got to the crag and had a look around.solo what you feel like,lead routes after your mates even with the runners in place.don't get hung up on all this onsighting shit save it for when you are on top of your game.
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I don't actually think to myself 'right, I'm allowed exactly one solo before I lead a route', it was a bit tongue in cheek. I appreciate your point, by I'm just saying that now I've got more opportunity to climb, I'm trying to maintain focus and keep some structure without it being set in stone. One of the the things that aggravated my personal problems last year (that I mentioned in my OP), was I did what I usually do and booked a load of things into my weekends, but they weren't actually things I'd intended to do, and I ran out of weekends before realising that. So I spent the year doing fun stuff (like an Alps trip), but not the stuff I'd expected to do (sea cliff climbing, my fave). This year, I've hardly booked any specific weekends in (the previous two years I'd be busy until August by this point, this year I'm mostly free), but I've made theoretical goals instead, as I think that's a better way for me to enjoy my year.
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Am i on ukclimbing.com by mistake...??
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Am i on ukclimbing.com by mistake...??
I can't read the understones there, so I won't reply.
Oops.
;)
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You got rained off then. A Cast Iron excuse. What you need to say to yourself when you're on a large hold in a pumpy position is that you'll be absolutely made up if you manage to stand on it. Did I already say about once being advised to try to concentrate on your foot work when you're scared and getting pumped. I'm not sure if I don't do this already, or if I take it for granted, as I just focus on big footholds in general. Also it can be quite a good idea to just climb out of that situation quickly too. I like it on safe routes when I can get into the mind set of saying `I've got more left in the tank yet' and hanging on for more. It's surprising what you can do, and if you fail then you're not bothered as you're absolutely fucked. I'm not so sure how much these `good climbers' (I almost think they are fictional) go in for that Energy efficiency, Neil Gresham's 50 magic techniques approach. I'm sure a lot of it boils down to how hard a move you can do when you're fucked. As well as the head thing this explains why boulderering ability doesn't necessarily translate into trad ability.
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Cheers, useful reply Paz.
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I don't actually do much soloing at all to be honest, since my main partner climbs a lot harder so abs for gear. I'm also wary of soloing/bouldering on my own in case I get into trouble - I can't focus enough - although haven't tried it much. I don't have a mat but considered buying one, so maybe if I do I'll get out on my own more!
Sorry bluebrad, I made a typo there, I should have written "don't actually do much seconding at all"!!! Didn't mean to confuse you, I probably came across really contrary!
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Now that I've admitted I'm just posting random trad lead head hints I don't feel the need to wait for a specific question to suggest a good one:
Tip no. 17. ditch the rack
While this works on so many levels, on trad routes if you've tried everything to do a move and it's not happening, you keep reversing, well if you know you're not going to need a lot more gear (or frankly if you're me because you think the risk is worth it because you're that pissed off and will try anything) then clip all your gear in top whatever kit you've got in. If there's nowt to clip it to then (you shouldn't have brought so blinking much in the first place should you), just keep crab of wires and your belay plate or sommink. Bingo, you're now 2kg lighter and 6a moves feel easy again.
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don't worry i'm not going to offer any trad advice. liking the signature paz
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Well I managed to tumbleweed the slab skills thread, although I did post about 2 weeks after the previous last post...
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In accepting risk we assert our will to live. Where's Houdini when you need him?
I'm here Brother. What can I teach you?
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Ive found recently that my choosing of what bit of gear to place comes much much more easily. I think this is crucial to climbing harder stuff as it helps psychologically (you feel better and you make better placements) and of course it keeps you moving instead of hanging around in a strenuous position.
I did The Right Unconquerable on Friday and have rarely felt so good on the rock. Climb the first initial groove and monkey out right to the better footholds. Swing effortlessly into the flake and throw in a bomber hex.
Flow up to where the flake turns right and chuck in a friend 3.5.
Swarm up a few metres and slot in a sinker wire. Emerge at the top break and try a number 4 friend, nope, number 3.5.
Top out.
Best single pitch Ive ever climbed. It was like I wasnt even there, it just happened.
Anyway, reminiscing aside, practice choosing and placing gear and stuff will happen much easier.
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Will you're a machine. The only time I have 2 Cam 3.5s on my rack is if I'm doing a ~30m hand crack or a girdle traverse.
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Was also carrying 2 full sets of nuts.
I know its punterish to take your whole (or nearly whole, I ditched the small hexes and tricams before setting off) up 15m of grit but I just like having it there.
:guilty:
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I dread to think how many sets of wires are on my usual three krabs worth without even including the offsets. Call it training heavy.
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Ive found recently that my choosing of what bit of gear to place comes much much more easily. I think this is crucial to climbing harder stuff as it helps psychologically (you feel better and you make better placements) and of course it keeps you moving instead of hanging around in a strenuous position.
...
Anyway, reminiscing aside, practice choosing and placing gear and stuff will happen much easier.
Wise words but bear in mind your example is of a trade route crack/flake line where it is extremely easy to spot what gear is required and, strenuosity aside, slam it in. A useful place to learn maybe but maintaining an efficient gear approach in a more stressful / hard to protect situation is an entirely different kettle of fish. Turbot, maybe.
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I must bow to Lord of the daft gear placements. Is it true you found a bomber Hex 9 placement on Indian Face just before the crux?
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I pride myself on imaginitive gear placements. really stoked when I found two bomber opposing nuts on Gullible's Travels at Stanage in the days before tiny cams. Bits of Spectra draped over crappy bosses of rock and weighed down with cams, Rps placed sideways, you name it, I've tried it.