UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Andy F on February 28, 2007, 06:14:54 pm
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Over on cocktalk there's actually a good discussion about how many people have climbed at least 1 8a in the UK. My estimate is 1000+. Anyone know of a more accurate figure and what are you basing it on? :-\
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do you mean people who've climbed an 8a in the UK, or people in the UK who've climbed 8a, or people in the UK who've climbed 8a in the UK?
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Ok, UK based climbers who have climbed an 8a in the UK.
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Argghh. Why do cocktalkers love guessing at statistics?
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JB: A wise man once said "There are lies. There are damned lies. And there's Cocktalk"
So there.
If it helps you at all AndyF, I don't do sport climbing so you can take me off your list. ???
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Argghh. Why do cocktalkers love guessing at statistics?
Erm, can I politely point you in the direction of this thread: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,3686.0.html
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Argghh. Why do cocktalkers love guessing at statistics?
Erm, can I politely point you in the direction of this thread: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,3686.0.html
To be fair this old thread wasn't so much guessing statistics as actually counting people. Not that that made it a worthwhile exercise. I have no idea how you would even start guessing at the answer to the question without making some really vague assumptions.
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Ian P has some good maths to work out an estimate, gives a figure close(ish) to 1000.
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You want numbers? I give you numbers! steepstone.com have a list of 49 Norwegians having done at least one 8b (http://www.steepstone.com/artikler/lista/liste_8b.asp). Norway have a pop. of 4,610,820 people, UK have 60,609,153 people, so given that the average ability in UK and Norway is about the same there should be 644 climbers having done at least one 8b in UK
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so given that the average ability in UK and Norway is about the same
Assuming of course that the UK isn't full of overweight wasters when compared to the super fit outdoor loving Norwegians :-\
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so what's that in real money, eh??
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The obesity rate in the UK is twice that of Norway (22 compared to 10%), so perhaps only half as many of the overall population will have climbed 8b? There's some really awful maths.....
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The obesity rate in the UK is twice that of Norway (22 compared to 10%), so perhaps only half as many of the overall population will have climbed 8b? There's some really awful maths.....
And given that the number of people who live in the south east away from any quality climbing maybe more like 25% giving us something like 150 - 200 UK 8bers which doesn't sound too unlikely I guess (and would fit it with the 20 or so 8c climbers that those on 'the other site' came up with) - can't beat some broad generalisations and assumptions.
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They have 8bs in Norway or they all did them in France? Where? Lofoten, or futher south. We went to this bigish sport crag a fair few hours from Oslo, but in sweden once, south of the Mecca of Bohuslan, that the locals were delighted to inform us that Steve Mclure and Big Frank and possibly Yuji had visited.
(http://eis.bris.ac.uk/~enjap/skarviksmaller.jpg)
Photo not great sorry, but it'd be excellent if there were more crags like that.
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i reckon there's more than 1000....
no science, just the huge numbers of us in times gone by that did the lycra thing / buoux at easter LPT in summer etc.... sort of climbing....
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no science, just the huge numbers of us in times gone by that did the lycra thing / buoux at easter LPT in summer etc.... sort of climbing....
But it is asking who is currently climbing the grade, I think this is much less, because people don't do the whole lycra thing anymore. Probably lots who are capable, but people just aren't into it anymore.
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The question clearly asks how many have 'climbed' (i.e. past tense).
There must be loads of old duffers like me an fat doc who did the deed in our youth but have long since drifted out of the sport climbing scene. Even in a crappy little town like Huddersfield (where I used to live) about 10 of us IIRC ticked the (once) magic grade back in the early 90s.
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Oops, just seen the thread on UKC. Apologies Andi. :-[
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They have 8bs in Norway or they all did them in France? Where? Lofoten, or futher south. We went to this bigish sport crag a fair few hours from Oslo, but in sweden once, south of the Mecca of Bohuslan, that the locals were delighted to inform us that Steve Mclure and Big Frank and possibly Yuji had visited.
[pic]
Photo not great sorry, but it'd be excellent if there were more crags like that.
That is one shitty pic of Svanvik(?) :-[ I think? For sport I also rate Viks kile on the same island. Gothenburg to the south also have a decent sport crag.
Oh, yeah. They have quite a few 8b's in Norway. The sports-climbing around Stavanger and Bergen is supposedly really good. I would guess that the most popular 8b in Norway would be Marathon, at, umm, ohh, some crag really close to Oslo, Damtjern perhaps?
Located just outside Trondheim right smack in the middle of Norway, in the village Hell, is arguably Norway's best sport crag, and one of my favorite crags ever, with quite a few routes in the 7c-8b+ bracket.
I don't know of any 8b's in Lofoten.
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Cheers man, think I've been to the other swedish place too (made of Gneiss) -it was very good- and to Utby, but for trad. The Norwegian stuff sounds worth bearing in mind if I ever get round to going. We oggled some big trad `new route potential' slabs in the OTE in 1999, but it's probably all been done by now
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The sports-climbing around Stavanger and Bergen is supposedly really good....
On the one day in the year when it isn't clag bound or pouring with rain!
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I've no idea but then again I hate limestone.
How hard is Bubbles Wall direct?
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There are quite a few 8b's in Norway. Bergen has a good concentration especially on the staminafest crag of Loddefjord (where Steve M onsighted lots). Stavanger has only 5 ish 8b's dotted around. Oslo has quite a few, and Trondheim has some at Hell. No 8b's in Lofoten, there is a trad 8a+ and a few 8a's.
I would say the level of climbing is higher in the UK than in Norway. Only 4 Norwegians have ever done 8c routes. One or two have bouldered 8b/+. Between 5 and 10 have bouldered 8b.
There are very few numpties in Norway though, if you climb then you will climb 6a and upwards on bolts or E1 trad. If you don't do this then you don't really bother (generally), so there are no hoards of Severe leaders like the UK.
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What rock is this on? There's no website is there?
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Only 4 Norwegians have ever done 8c routes.
That would translate to 55 people in UK having done 8c routes.
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Scotland's population is aboot the same as Norway. 2 8Cers, and no more than 10 8Bers, probs 30 to 40 8Aers - but relatively few of these actually in Scotland (Oh and Silk Purse is said to be 'continental 8a' so bung a few more on..?!) This gives lower UK stat. I do think people over estimate this type of thing. I can't speak about Peak sport but you hardly ever see 8 sends in Yorkshire or Pen Trwyn...and half the time there a quickdraw hanging off the chain that gets grabbed :furious:
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What rock is this on? There's no website is there?
Most of the rock in Norway is granite (though Hell and Loddefjord are not) Pretty much all Stavanger stuff and all Oslo stuff is granite. Good website to Stavanger bouldering here: http://www.buldreinfo.com/index.php
Click on the Enlgish link for ...er... English, and the foto/video link for ...er... photos and vids
Bin done a bit here as well: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,5931.0.html
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Scotland.... 2 8Cers, and no more than 10 8Bers, probs 30 to 40 8Aers - but relatively few of these actually in Scotland.
Yeah I've seen these stats before, did it have about 50 Scots currently on sighting E5 which I think roughly equated to about 500 English climbers working at the same level. Does this seem about right? If so that'd make about 400 8a climbers in England, which seems maybe about right. I wouldn't be surprised if it was less to be honest, as you need to be relatively keen to be an 8aer these days as folk just don't really seem into it.
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as folk just don't really seem into it.
What on earth gives you that idea?
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What on earth gives you that idea?
Just the amount of people I see climbing on bolted limestone compared to the hoardes I see on grit or trad crags. I tend to see the same faces, week in, week out on Limestone but a much more mixed bunch on the trad crags. Amongst the guys I climb with probably 50% drop out when the thought of British Sport Climbing rears it's head. This is generaly down to the thought of having to dog routes and work hard as opposed to the instant gratification of knocking off a few trad routes or boulder problems.
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Amongst the guys I climb with probably 50% drop out when the thought of British Sport Climbing rears it's head. This is generaly down to the thought of having to dog routes and work hard
I think its more to do with British sport climbing not being very inspiring.
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I suppose that's a more succinct way of putting it! There are some amazing routes out there (Thormans Moth springs to mind), but yeah, I love all aspects of climbing, but the thought of going to some British Sport crags just fills me with dread too.
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I think its more to do with British sport climbing not being very inspiring.
That's a whole separate debate..
Andi, is it not also apparent to you that most of those who do choose to sport climb are operating (averagely) at a much higher grade than all of the grit climbers? I do agree that to a certain level that you find one bunch of climbers at a given crag repeatedly but I spent a great deal of time last season down at WCJ cornice, going on different days, during the week etc I saw a lot of people who I previously had never seen before.
I reckon the amount of ascents of free monster alone last season may account for more than the guesstimate amount of 8a climbers previously mentioned(please don't take this last line seriously, as its obviously not correct, I often found people queuing for this route when the remainder of the crag was deserted, madness.)
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pauls right - for a kickoff theres all those foundry weirdos that only venture outside when mecca is dry. you won't see them at grit crags in the winter.
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I think its more to do with British sport climbing not being very inspiring.
That's a whole separate debate..
Andi, is it not also apparent to you that most of those who do choose to sport climb are operating (averagely) at a much higher grade than all of the grit climbers?
I don't quite get what you mean by this? Could I not also argue then that all the grit climbers operate at a much higher grade - on grit? If not then you are simply stating that those who are climbing at a higher grade are climbing at a higher grade than those at a lower grade...if you get what I mean!
The discussion tends to keep gravitating back to the same point of the amount of people who climb a particular route i.e. I saw 10 people climb 'The Toilet/Free Monster/Raindogs', last year alone, hence there must be milions of people climbing 8a, wheras I believe it more a case of people congregating around the classic quality or classic first 8a type routes. I'd still wager that there would be no more than 500 people who climbed 8a last year in England, probably quite a few less.
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the point was meant to be: That although there are much fewer people climbing on limestone compared to grit those that are, generally operate at a much higher level and therefore are more likely to have climbed 8a. For example it simply would not be correct to assume the same perecentage of people climb at a particular level on each medium. Sorry if thats a little unclear.
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Fair do's. I think it boils down more to the fact though that those who wish to climb hard routes can't do it on Grit in summer so have to go to the Lime, so I suppose it could be argued that it filters out those who aren't operating at higher grades, this and the fact that easier routes tend to be very poor on sport Lime.
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pauls right - for a kickoff theres all those foundry weirdos that only venture outside when mecca is dry. you won't see them at grit crags in the winter.
Haha, yeah well it obviously works for them, how many people do you know who have, climb 8b+ have a full time job, and three kids? Can't imagine weeknends on the grit are that easy to fit in, compared to sessions down the wall?!?
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pauls right - for a kickoff theres all those foundry weirdos that only venture outside when mecca is dry. you won't see them at grit crags in the winter.
Haha, yeah well it obviously works for them, how many people do you know who have, climb 8b+ have a full time job, and three kids?
Erm, I can think of only one UK climber who fitted into that category - Tony Mitchell. Of all the people I climb with or meet at the crag on a regular basis it's the childless males who climb the hardest (Ste Mac excepted). Having (young)kids and a full time job is not very condusive to climbing hard.
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Well, I know of three who have climbed 8b> who both have kids.....I agree with your last point, not very condusive to climbing hard, but some people manage.......and shockingly to some people......without bouldering on the grit!!!! :jaw:
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[The discussion tends to keep gravitating back to the same point of the amount of people who climb a particular route i.e. I saw 10 people climb 'The Toilet/Free Monster/Raindogs', last year alone, hence there must be milions of people climbing 8a, wheras I believe it more a case of people congregating around the classic quality or classic first 8a type routes. I'd still wager that there would be no more than 500 people who climbed 8a last year in England, probably quite a few less.
I'd put a strong bet on the number of people who redpointed 8a or harder last year being significantly less than 500 - you just don't see enough hard(ish) redpoints week in week out to come up with that many people (unless of course a couple of hundred people redpointed Free Monster last year ::) )
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Lets not forget there's a lot more people try 8as every year than get up them! I saw lots of folk on Freemonster last year too, but of the ones I remember on it more than half didn't actually do it. Likewise with Raindogs, as an entry level 8a it sees a lot of folk having a go to test the water, without ever doing it.
In my experience sport climbing has seen a considerable increase in popularity in the last five years. I have also heard this from Tor/Malham regulars who have been going to these crags religiously for many years. That said, if forced to guess, I don't think there would have been more than 200 who did 8a in the UK last year, if that many.
Regards quality - The UK (mostly Yorkshire) has a few extremely good sport crags which are undoubtedly home to some of the countries best routes, if you don't believe me ask folk like Birkett who are regulars at these crags as well as being hard tradders all over the country. The Groove, The Thumb, Cave Route RH and the like are as good as it gets at any UK crag. If you don't think these stunning atmospheric lines, on great rock, with sustained brilliant moves, are any good you are as good as saying the UK has no good routes.
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:agree:
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:agree: as well
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:agree:
I love a bandwagon.
(especially a wagon of andys)
I think limestone routes are far better than grit routes anyway, and as I've never sport-climbed properly abroad, I've got nothing to compare them to, but the ones I've been on are amazing.
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Just out of interest andi, how many grit routes have you done and how many limestone routes have you done?
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i've done more grit routes than limestone routes... ::)
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Lets not forget there's a lot more people try 8as every year than get up them! I saw lots of folk on Freemonster last year too, but of the ones I remember on it more than half didn't actually do it.
yeah good point. I guess like you and others may have said people seems to congregate about the classics, I bet things like Ruby fruit jungle didn't see very many ascents, especially prior to your (and james') good work on it.
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Well, I know of three who have climbed 8b> who both have kids.....I agree with your last point, not very condusive to climbing hard, but some people manage.......and shockingly to some people......without bouldering on the grit!!!! :jaw:
There are a few old boys who climb 8b and have kids and not just Foundry wierdos as you put it. Some of us also spend a lot of time out bouldering on grit or elsewhere also as well as squeeze in a whole host more. It can be done with a bit of careful planning and dedication.
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I know a few who climb 8b and have kids, just adding the '+' seems a bit tough. As a side note, it's good to see some younger faces at Malham and Kilnsey. Seems like Sport climbing is slowly becoming fashionable again...
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I noticed that last summer, those at Kilnsey seemed to be the same faces you would have seen a few years ago too, no doubt. I always thought sport climbing was trendy, turns out I was wrong. Even though I'm shit I still love falling off!
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I noticed that last summer, those at Kilnsey seemed to be the same faces you would have seen a few years ago too, no doubt. I always thought sport climbing was trendy, turns out I was wrong. Even though I'm shit I still love falling off!
Almost as much as I love watching you nearly deck out :o. Just don't try that trick on the Ashes youth :o :o
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Haha, the runout is scary to belay you on because you got out of sight whilst running it out, I was worried you'd come back into view going very quickly towards the dust... Thankfully you never did (when I was belaying!)
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Now Steve Mc is a dad and he's nearly got 500 routes of 8a and above there is no excuses. He mentioned that he should make the 500 one his trip to spain next week, he's on 497.
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Well, I know of three who have climbed 8b> who both have kids.....
I'm assuming you meant >8b there Dan?
Otherwise you just included pretty much all the climbing population.
...and whilst we're at bad maths; three who both? What happened to the other one?
;)
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Well spotted JR, I was trying to not get spotted posting on UKB while at work, hence the rushed unchecked reply.....
Sorry, yeah Three who have climbed at least 8b or above,who have kids....
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As of yesterday its an unknown figure plus one. I'm so happy!
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Effort.
is it not also apparent to you that most of those who do choose to sport climb are operating (averagely) at a much higher grade than all of the grit climbers?
You need to go down horseshoe once in a while. Even if you haven't been, aren't you amazed at the numbers of cars everytime you drive past? I am.
I think the proportions are much the same, just that there aren't so many limestone crags that cater for all grades, whereas most grit crags do.
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As of yesterday its an unknown figure plus one. I'm so happy!
Are you the pround owner of the 'Raindogs scream' I heard yesterday? Is so, good effort youth. I was on the upper Tier so couldn't see you do it, but heard the result (if indeed it was you on Raindogs).
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Haha, no that was me Andy! Combination of power scream on last move and relief. :oops:
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As of yesterday its an unknown figure plus one. I'm so happy!
Haha, no that was me Andy! Combination of power scream on last move and relief. :oops:
Serious redpoint weekend by the look of it - routes were going down like skittles :thumbsup:
Unfortunately I managed to fail twice at the same point, 1 move or so from glory, maybe next week :shrug:
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Haha, no that was me Andy! Combination of power scream on last move and relief. :oops:
Effort youth, have some waddage.
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Cheers Andy, another in the queue for overnite now..... :please:
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I'll be back in that queue soon enough myself, just need to get a couple of other things polished off.
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Thought Overnight was top priority Andy? Still early in the year muh'lad...
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Overnight is top priority but I need to build up some base fitness before I get back on it. I can do all the moves, just lack the stamina to link them from bottom to top, hence I'm doing other things (like pumpy 7c+'s) to build up to Overnight. I have a cunning plan m'lord :goodidea:
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Is the official spelling Overnight or Overnite? - always confuses me
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Overnite, according to Rockfax database: http://www.rockfax.com/databases/r.php?i=2886
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Hi monolith think it was you who gave us the loan of your rope on fri at awesome cheers how did your trip to woodwell go dave
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That was my rope Dave! Monolith was at the wall though teaching the kids some skills :lol:
Our trip went well and most of Woodwell main was in good nick after the sun came out (although the first moves on AOSD were too wet for Owen to work). O'ert Road was too wet to climb on but we got to have a play on Red Wall down at Trowbarrow afterwards too. We will definitely be getting back up there as soon as possible :)
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Hi rich sorry about that thanks again for the loan of the rope. let me know when your up again and will try and meet up with you guys only live about 15mins from woodwell!!!! cheers dave
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That was my rope Dave!
I'll take it you didn't fall on it then Dave?
Seeing as you're not in hospital like
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Personally, I'd prefer to tie into a braided tramps beard before tying into Rich's rope.
Aye dave, pop on over for the next kids class where the whip will be getting most definitely cracked.
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Is the official spelling Overnight or Overnite? - always confuses me
If, as I imagine, the route is named after one of my all-time favourite albums, the official spelling is Over-nite.
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That was my rope Dave!
I'll take it you didn't fall on it then Dave?
Seeing as you're not in hospital like
It's fkin sound kid.. me maaa got it from Garston Market for 5 quid ;)
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solid rope man didnt snap when i took a winger dave
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If, as I imagine, the route is named after one of my all-time favourite albums, the official spelling is Over-nite.
You know as soon as the name came up I had to stop myself from posting the pedantry, well done!
She ruled the toads
Of the short forest
And every newt in idaho
And every cricket who had chorused
By the bush in buffalo