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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Fiend on February 22, 2007, 01:50:02 pm

Title: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on February 22, 2007, 01:50:02 pm
One for Johnny Long et al.

I can understand how to improve at most angles of climbing as the physical demands are more obvious. But, how does one train for / become good at slabs?

How are some people so good at slabs and others aren't, particularly friction slabs where the role of strength is less relevant?

For example, take something as pure as, say, Angel's Share. Let's start from the gutter with just the slab remaining. I step onto the first non-existent smear, I feel my balance, get in the best-feeling position, maximise the foot contact, feel what end point I'm aiming for, and stand up....and slip straight off. A good slab climber does the same thing, stands up, and sticks - how?

This is something that has always bemused me. Basically it boils down to standing on smears. Me and said good climber, same rubber, same smear, similar body shape, differences in strength are irrelevant....so how come one can do it and the other can't??

Thinking about it - does it boil down to precision?? I.e. there will be one perfectly correct position for the body and balance (taking into account all aspects of that) that will allow that person to stick to that smear. And all other positions will not quite be enough. So, said good climber is in touch with their body and slab climbing enough to find that exact position....and I am not - ios that it??

If this is it, or whatever other factors are involved, how can on attain that?? (Aside from the obvious "practise"!).
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: r-man on February 22, 2007, 01:55:31 pm
Quote from: nik at work
One of the best ways to improve footwork is to try tolimb slabs without your hands and try and climb vertical stuff with only one hand. This forces you to really think about your foot positioning and the orientation of the forces you put through your feet. You will be surprised by:
a) the steepness of slab it is possible to climb no-handed
b) the amount of times you can take both hands off on a vertical wall with a bit of foot trickery.
When I started really climbing (i.e. doing it lots) I quickly realised that I was never going to be that strong or flexible or a big stamina monster (I have none of these things natrually and I'm too lazy to train properly) so I really focused on technique and footwork. My top secret training device is a piece of ply wood about 3 foot high by 4 foot wide which I have in my garage covered in a range of slopy holds. Rather than mounting it in the air and hanging from it I have it set up at a slabby angle on the ground. I then jump onto it with both feet at the same time and try and land in balance on the footholds without using my hands. Doing this is very frustrating and hard but it will give you killer balance andordination with your feet.

Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Bonjoy on February 22, 2007, 02:00:52 pm
 It sounds daft, but my slab climbing vastly improved when I tried using comfortable fitting boots rather than the usual crazily overtight ones I used to always go for.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on February 22, 2007, 02:03:27 pm
Simplest advice on sticking to smears is keep your heels low as possible. Second thing is really put some time into squeaking your boots properly.

Beyond that it comes down to body position, awareness of centre of gravity and belief. Confidence in your feet sticking is a feedback loop thing, not having faith in the smear invariably leads to a worse body position, the smear doesn't stick, it gets worse next go...

Johnny used to liken hard slab moves as like a 3'd version of those electric-hoop and wiggly-wire games. You have to move your centre of gravity through a virtual tube that takes you from one stable position to another without destabilising either. Of course on the hard stuff the tube gets smaller and the stable positions further apart.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: r-man on February 22, 2007, 02:04:55 pm
The punter's perspective:

I've made a footboard before, and played on it for a week or two, but never seriously trained.  I did find that it was amazing how much you could improve at standing on tiny holds without using hands at all. I went from floundering hopelessly at said technique, to finding it quite easy. I'm sure if I kept it up, it would have really improved my slab climbing.

In conclusion, it's a knack. You can't stand on smears by trying to figure them out, you just have to let your body get used to the idea.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Bonjoy on February 22, 2007, 02:15:27 pm
 I think part of the psycological difficulty of slabs is the fact that a fall will be a sudden slip. When you fall off normally on other types of climb you generally have a bit of warning, so you climb relaxed as you arn't deveoting mental effort to anticipating and controlling a fall. It can be hard to relax and climb well when you are half expecting to ping off in an unpredictable manner at any second. For this there is no substitute for just doing a lot of slab climbing. Eventually you learn to fall and land well and hence relax in the knowledge that a slip isn't a major problem and your subconcious landing reflexes will cope if it happens.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on February 22, 2007, 02:39:19 pm
Good comments lads, makes a lot of sense to me.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: John Cooke on February 22, 2007, 02:46:34 pm
I can second the importance of boots there. It wasn't until i bought a decent pair that fitted right (i.e. weren't stupidly tight, and actually flexed!) that i learnt how to stand on smears, not that i'm any slabmeister like, but the past year or two i've got much better. I've found you need the right degree of wear on a shoe also, and a good decent squeek is critical.

Some things that have made a difference:

Boots (as mentioned) - size, wear, squeeking
Centre of gravity - hips close in and over your foot
Timing and momentum in some cases
Keeping your heels low
If using pebbles, crimping your big toe to force your shoe to bite
Really trusting your feet!

Please correct me if i've any of this wrong!

Certainly practice makes perfect. The boulder slabs at the roaches i've found really good for wiring technique. In particular the forest slab (near the hut) and the C3PO and Bobba Fett slab.

Any other good boulder slabs?
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: SA Chris on February 22, 2007, 03:12:09 pm
I think how you stand on the slab is especially more relevant if you are relying heavily on your feet. Smearing straight on, with foot turned sideways, or even edging on somewhere you would expect to smear on can make all the difference to upward progress. I reckon there are usually more various ways to stand on a poor foot placement than there are to use a handhold, some more effective than others.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Idol eyes on February 22, 2007, 03:22:40 pm
Faith and Friction, have you must young Jedi...
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Eddies on February 22, 2007, 06:38:52 pm
I enjoy slabs but my mates arent, everytime i get on a slabby problem I get comments like 'Ohh Watch your teeth mate' and 'We dont wanna have to run around picking yer teeth up after you'

By advise is to get the mental side wired first, then worry about your feet and all that later!!
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: GCW on February 23, 2007, 08:55:22 pm
I find a good wire brushing of holds makes slabs feel easier.....

Seriously though, practice practice.  Know the rock.  You are one with the rock.  The rock is your friend.
Love from Mr Dawes  xx
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Idol eyes on February 24, 2007, 08:41:18 pm
Jonny Woodwards ascent (2nd?) of Hall of Mirrors, Glacier Point Apron, Yosemite required the switch from Boreal Classics to EBs, This article is inspiring, can any one find it...
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: andy popp on February 25, 2007, 09:01:13 am
Its been said before, by everyone, but just climb lots of slabs. Its a learnt thing. Forget Johnnies' metaphysics, they won't help and might apply in only a tiny handful of cases. A lot of stuff he suggests sounds outrageous but turns out OK. He told me once he'd top roped Obsession Fatale no handed, which sounds mad, but when I tried it was actually fine (and good fun). You might be able to train as well, I used to do hundreds of reps on the calf raise machine at Stoke gym - not that I ever developed any calf muscles worth the name. Stone Crusade (is that right, the Vermin book) has interesting stuff from some slab bouldering place in California - Mt. Rubidoux maybe - about the lengths some people went to get their boots in prime condition, so yeah, squeek your boots to fuck.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: grimer on February 25, 2007, 11:18:15 am
Hi Andy remember going to Burbage with Jonny Woodward one day. He top roped The Braille Trail. I was amazed by the way he just walked along the smears, he seemed to have so much in reserve on them.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: andy popp on February 25, 2007, 12:40:27 pm
Grimer, you don't remember everything. I was with you, you fool. We'd been down the dale all day but you said we had to get back to Burbage to meet someone but wouldn't tell me who. I was in awe when we swung into the carpark to find Johnny there. You're right, he climbed across the traverse beautifully (and it was summer, incidentally he'd just done Shirley's Shining Temple in v. hot weather). It was a great evening, very relaxed and a lovely sunset. He was keen to see the next wave of grit routes that had been done since he left for the states. Having walked the traverse he fell off the stand up at the end and then sacked if off (I desperately shook my way across and up in front of this guru). His whole attitude was great. He'd enjoyed what he'd done and was happy. I don't think I've met a top climber with less apparent ego - strange considering his early enfant terrible reputation.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: GCW on February 25, 2007, 12:56:51 pm
Grimer, you don't remember everything. I was with you, you fool.
I think that's what he meant here Andy, just forgot the ? at the end and some basic Grammar.
Hi Andy.  Remember going to Burbage with Jonny Woodward one day?
Punctuation, eh?  :lol:
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: andy popp on February 25, 2007, 02:49:31 pm
See, Uncle was right all along. Grammar IS important.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: grimer on February 25, 2007, 06:32:50 pm
Grammar IS important.

Oh, well I wouldn't say I'm all that important really, but thank you.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on February 28, 2007, 05:21:48 pm
Have been practising this recently or at least trying to, playing around on The Tiny Slab at Burbizzle Nozzle. Paying particular attention to squeaking my shoes, keeping my heels low, staying relaxed and trusting the friction, etc...

It was quite a disturbing and demoralising experience  ???

The most notable thing that it felt very random as to whether a smear would stick. For example on something I found tricky, the same smear in what felt like the same position, could slip immediately 5 times, then stick perfectly 5 times....whoop I've got the feel? No....then slip immediately 5 times... Hard to let it sink into my brain when it behaves differently.

The things that did have some consistency: Tightening my shoes helped noticably. And if the smear didn't feel right (even if it looked identical to the previous times it was used), it was more likely to go.

Ho hum, more practise again and again...
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on February 28, 2007, 05:42:38 pm
Quote
And if the smear didn't feel right (even if it looked identical to the previous times it was used), it was more likely to go.

Indeed. I'd recommend placing your foot as precisely as you can by eye, then don't look at it again. Certainly don't stare at it as you weight it, very counter-productive.

Quote
then stick perfectly 5 times....whoop I've got the feel? No....then slip immediately 5 times...

The two facts are usually related - don't ever get complacent and think 'oh I've got it now.'

The slab right of Brad's arete at Eagle tor is a great one for practicing smearing. That burbage one is getting a bit polished.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: a dense loner on February 28, 2007, 06:50:39 pm
practice fiend, and i'm not giving out advice here
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Paz on February 28, 2007, 07:55:36 pm
Johnny Dawes might actually have a valid scientific point with his meta-physics electro-wire tube thing.  With the stability. 

A lot of standard smearing advice tells you to get as much surface area in contact with the rock as possible - "to maximise the friction".  If you have a constant normal force uniformly distributed over a surface area of constant coefficient of friction, supported by a constant friction force then it doesn't matter how much planar surface area you;'ve got - the friction is the same.  Unless there's somehting funny going on with vectors, or supporting a torque through friction, or uneven friction or surface shape and no doubt a whole host of other real life disclaimers. 

But the more surface area you've got, the larger your `base is' so you're more stable like a pyramid, as your centre of gravity has to move further before you over balance and need to pull in with your arms.

I think the size of the perturbations you a a climber produce to this simple stability thing also increases, as your balance (or general skill) decreases, and as you get more drunk.  That's kind of what happens during slack lining.  You not only learn to correct the pertubrations, but not to produce them in the first place, or correct them earlier before they become as large. 

I'm sorry if I've gone on - it's only about three lines of maths.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: GCW on February 28, 2007, 08:00:16 pm
Johnny Dawes might actually have a valid scientific point with his meta-physics electro-wire tube thing.  With the stability. 

A lot of standard smearing advice tells you to get as much surface area in contact with the rock as possible - "to maximise the friction".  If you have a constant normal force uniformly distributed over a surface area of constant coefficient of friction, supported by a constant friction force then it doesn't matter how much planar surface area you;'ve got - the friction is the same.  Unless there's somehting funny going on with vectors, or supporting a torque through friction, or uneven friction or surface shape and no doubt a whole host of other real life disclaimers. 

But the more surface area you've got, the larger your `base is' so you're more stable like a pyramid, as your centre of gravity has to move further before you over balance and need to pull in with your arms.

I think the size of the perturbations you a a climber produce to this simple stability thing also increases, as your balance (or general skill) decreases, and as you get more drunk.  That's kind of what happens during slack lining.  You not only learn to correct the pertubrations, but not to produce them in the first place, or correct them earlier before they become as large. 

I'm sorry if I've gone on - it's only about three lines of maths.

Did anyone actually understand a word of this?!?!?!!?   :shrug:
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Ballsofcottonwool on March 01, 2007, 09:42:21 am
Go and play on some slabs using no hands, this is how you will learn.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: John Cooke on March 01, 2007, 10:39:59 am
Have been practising this recently or at least trying to, playing around on The Tiny Slab at Burbizzle Nozzle. Paying particular attention to squeaking my shoes, keeping my heels low, staying relaxed and trusting the friction, etc...

It was quite a disturbing and demoralising experience  ???

The most notable thing that it felt very random as to whether a smear would stick. For example on something I found tricky, the same smear in what felt like the same position, could slip immediately 5 times, then stick perfectly 5 times....whoop I've got the feel? No....then slip immediately 5 times... Hard to let it sink into my brain when it behaves differently.

The things that did have some consistency: Tightening my shoes helped noticably. And if the smear didn't feel right (even if it looked identical to the previous times it was used), it was more likely to go.

Ho hum, more practise again and again...

Buy yourself some decent shoes Fiend, i'm guessing you were wearing either those five ten Newton things or your mad rock phoenix's  ??? Just look at the types of shoes uber slab meisters wear, you won't see a single pair of punter boots with laces right the way down to the toes.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Krank on March 01, 2007, 02:49:01 pm
What shoes would you recommend for slab climbing then? :shrug:
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Dave Flanagan on March 01, 2007, 04:51:48 pm
Johnny Dawes might actually have a valid scientific point with his meta-physics electro-wire tube thing.  With the stability. 

A lot of standard smearing advice tells you to get as much surface area in contact with the rock as possible - "to maximise the friction".  If you have a constant normal force uniformly distributed over a surface area of constant coefficient of friction, supported by a constant friction force then it doesn't matter how much planar surface area you;'ve got - the friction is the same.  Unless there's somehting funny going on with vectors, or supporting a torque through friction, or uneven friction or surface shape and no doubt a whole host of other real life disclaimers. 

Supple materials like rubber don't follow the normal laws of friction. ie. for rubber friction is proportional to the (apparent) contact area.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Paz on March 01, 2007, 05:17:26 pm
Do you know what law they do follow then?  A nonlinear one? 
That's just the leading order approximation anyway, and the stability benefit of more area still holds, though I probably over sold it. 

With the shoes thing - when you're about to trust a really small foot hold you don't want to feel your feet moving within the boot. That's why I get really small shoes anyway.  Blatantly you're talking 5.10 pinks or velcro's as the classic slab boot.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Ballsofcottonwool on March 02, 2007, 04:29:14 pm
you needs boots that fit really well, i swear by my 5.10 dragons the old velcro ones. either that or superglue a sheet of rubber straight onto your skin.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on March 02, 2007, 07:08:49 pm

Buy yourself some decent shoes Fiend, i'm guessing you were wearing either those five ten Newton things or your mad rock phoenix's  ??? Just look at the types of shoes uber slab meisters wear, you won't see a single pair of punter boots with laces right the way down to the toes.

HAH! Admittedly was wearing resoled Sapphires....still, you seen what those old boys climbed in clogs and plimsols.

I wear Newtons for smeary routes - perfect fit and worn down so the top is pretty soft.

The thing is, I could either wear Newtons / Sapphires in a size 6 that fit perfectly and feel good, or I could get Stazis in a size 7 that would be like wearing pointy galoshes as there is no way in hell they fit as I can't get my toes to the end - I have tried!! Maybe I will try again, but I doubt my feet will have changed that much.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 02, 2007, 07:12:27 pm
I agree, well-worn Newtons make for a great smearing boot. Its also worth noting for smearing you don't want them too tight; today James and I were both consciously loosening the velcro on our boots, mainly to allow you to bend the toe easily when high stepping, and also allows a deeper heel drop. Obviously tight and stiff for edging though...
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on March 10, 2007, 01:23:23 pm
For example, take something as pure as, say, Angel's Share.

How prophetic  8)

I have kept practising. Not on the Eagle Tor slab obviously, but on the easy slab beneath Burbage West, the easy slab left of the 3 Pockets at Roaches (surely the easiest V3 in the universe - big holds everywhere!), and on the Lone Boulder (which I think is my favourite single boulder). I don't know how much I've been improving but I've been enjoying it! And liking the feel of grit slopers and smearing. I also did Satin the other day, which I'd never really considered trying before - it was pretty easy as there's actually good holds on it! But well scary though  :)
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on March 10, 2007, 08:35:57 pm
And again... Went to Stanage, soloed Sleepwalker (had to drop off the start once as my shoe had picked up some grit) and Daydreamer (flashed). One thing I used on both of these was inspired by Adam Brown on the Angel's Share video - starting with a hand palming the slab with the fingers facing horizontally inwards, which is easier turned into a mantel....something new I've learnt despite many years climbing!

I also tried Shock Horror Slab and couldn't even come close despite dozens of attempts in good conditions - can I have some vague beta hints please?? Currently have LH on shitty pebble at full stretch (a bit right of the blunt rib), RH on skin-shredding ripple/tiny pebble 2' to the right. Step left foot onto the good break under the overlap, rock up and bear down like a mofo on the RH, reach LH up to rubbish sloper or obvious pebble above and fall over backwards. Or one time when I tried to reach for a slightly larger rubbish sloper to the right, and my RH pinged and took a chunk out of my thumbnail... Utterly desperate, I tried other combinations of pebbles, the rib, etc etc, but this is the only one I could actually get off the ground with  ???
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: dave on March 10, 2007, 09:45:30 pm
i can't remember owt about shock horror other than it ain't easy, and the day i first did that and daydreamer it was blowing a gale and was shitting it at the top. i think i even cut loost on the middle section of shock horror.

dunno if it helps but at the start of shock horros theres a hold over right (nearly at the edge of the rock) which can be useful and a lot of people miss.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on March 10, 2007, 09:51:02 pm
Was blowing a hoolie today. Had some near-logging action on the top of Daydreamer <where is the wobbly looking smiley?>

The hold out right on Shock Horror, yeah I saw one, a shallow pocket thing. I just thought since the guide was clear about no boulder, that one was supposed to start very direct. That hold could have helped...
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Bonjoy on March 11, 2007, 09:13:41 am
The guides always say go direct and I know at least on person who has, but IMO opinion the fully direct start without holds out right is harder than the start of Shirleys, I doubt the FA will have done it this way and given it Eng 6b!
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on March 11, 2007, 09:38:23 am
Ta for that.

What we really need is a new Stanage guide to sort out such obscurities  :)
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 11, 2007, 04:31:58 pm
Quote
IMO opinion the fully direct start without holds out right is harder than the start of Shirleys

I wouldn't go that far, it is tough though. Bancroft once said to me he thought E1 6b was the biggest sandbag in the guide, not sure I'd agree though.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: AndiT on March 12, 2007, 09:23:04 am
Friction is greatest at it's limit. So when your foot pops this means that you've just overstepped the mark. It's a bit like learning to do a handstand, you need to go over a few times before you can get that balance point, so in sliping off you could actually be helping yourself as long as you don't get demoralised.

Slabs at the back of Ramshaw are a good practice spot as you can 'wander' all over them at different grades and practice different things. When you feel good, pop up to Force Nine and put your practice into action.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: GCW on March 12, 2007, 09:32:24 am
When I wanted to improve my slab skills I just did lots of slabs in my crappest boots (Fires at the time).  I think it improves your technique a fair bit trying to squeeze every drop of friction from low friction rubber.  Precision in the feet. 
Then when you put your good boots on.....
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: andy popp on March 12, 2007, 09:53:23 am
The talk of Shock Horror reminds me of the classic photo of JA on Shirley's, itself a reminder than on most grit slabs you also have to push and pull. There's very little pure padding in Britain and you still have to 'bear down' to a certain extent. On grit this means learning how to hold pebbles properly.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 12, 2007, 09:58:32 am
Yeah, brilliant photo! Have you learnt the inverted forefinger pebble mantel yet Fiend?
The other thing that might help is a copy of Fawcett on Rock if, god forbid, you haven't already seen it.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: (woz) on March 12, 2007, 10:27:40 am
The other thing that might help is a copy of Fawcett on Rock if

Especially if Satin is the slab you want the skills for - "don't tread in the snow"! Great book.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on March 12, 2007, 10:45:08 am
The other thing that might help is a copy of Fawcett on Rock if, god forbid, you haven't already seen it.

Haha  :thumbsup: Don't worry I have a copy, have read it 2 or 3 times in the past, and yes it's been my bible for the last week....The Numbers  ;). Seriously, that's the sort of stuff I'd see before and think "Hmmm....really!", Satin always looked nails in that....although he does use a pretty duff sequence, doesn't seem to use the lower left foothold nor the right hand pebble at all  :-\

Quote
Yeah, brilliant photo! Have you learnt the inverted forefinger pebble mantel yet Fiend?

Hmmm yeah that photo is brilliant. I look at that and think "How is he attached to the rock?". In a way that I'd look at, say, Action Direct, and not question attachment. I'm working up to the inverted forefinger pebble mantle  :whistle:
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 12, 2007, 11:32:11 am
Quote
Satin always looked nails in that....although he does use a pretty duff sequence,

Well if you can already climb better than Ron what's the thread for??
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Houdini on March 12, 2007, 11:56:49 am
Nothing to add other than getting better at slab climbing using poor boots and poor rubber strikes me as gash advice, not looking at your feet after placement is great advice; slabs are about feeling, not looking.   (My first boots positively held me back for a month when I first started.) 

Slab climbing is still where it's at.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: GCW on March 12, 2007, 12:04:09 pm
Don't think I made myself clear there.  Sorry.
What I was getting at was being accurate and precise with your feet.  I wasn't suggesting you should rush out and buy shite boots!!  Just that I had crap boots and learnt to use my feet well because of it.
As I said before, practice practice.  Learn to use the rock properly.

Is Onyx all it's cracked up to be?  Need new boots and may have to branch out from my perpetual Anasazi usage....
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Houdini on March 12, 2007, 12:08:53 pm
Point understood.  I think onyx will be on all 5.10 soon.  Is that right?  Worm vouches for onyx.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: butters on March 12, 2007, 01:26:05 pm
The Anasazis, Galileos and the Verdes all use the new Onyx rubber - will leave it to others to comment on whether it is better or not though as I am not good enough to judge IMO. 

bluebrad
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Duma on March 12, 2007, 06:02:08 pm
Can't say I've noticed much diff from the old rubber. The new heel for the velcros, on the other hand, is a revelation - not cause it's that great, it's just light years ahead of the shite that used to be attached to the back of what was otherwise the world's greatest boot.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: moose on March 12, 2007, 06:18:17 pm
I can't really comment on the relative stickiness of Onyx vs the old stuff but I can tell you that it wears pretty bloody fast.  My new Anasazi velcros are still in the "arrgggghhh-my-ingrowing-toenails" breaking-in stage but the rubber already has an irregularly peeling look like the "Singing Detective's" face.  A mitigating factor is that I wore them on holiday in Ariege - home of some incredibly rough limestone slabs and even rougher (grittier than grit) grantite - but the degree of wear is still pretty worrying (I suspect that they will wear-through just as they are becoming absolutely fantastic).  For comparison my venoms have been used far more but their soles (the new Vibram XSGrip stuff) are still pretty pristine.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 12, 2007, 07:04:50 pm
Agreed, slightly stickier, wears out quicker. I thought the even stickier, but harder wearing bit was too good to be true.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: dave on March 12, 2007, 07:35:32 pm
Can't say I've noticed much diff from the old rubber. The new heel for the velcros, on the other hand, is a revelation

A reveltation in that it used to be a good heel, then they revolved it round to being a shite heel. in fact they've almost ruined the whole boot:

1. Onyx rubber seems to wear faster and I haven't found it to be any stickier really.
2. They are more expensive now.
3. The heel is shite - doesn't fit my foot any better than the old heel, only now theres less rubber on it and because theres loads of half-glued open seams they start to fall apart the first time you heelhook on anything positive. Basically its another point for Fivetens legendary shite build quality to manifest itself. Lets not forget that in my pair when the heel does stay on a hold my foot starts to slide out of them, which never happened with any of my old boots. In fact i've kept my last almost-knackered pair incase i want to try brad pit again.
4. The "velcro" is now shite. i use inverted commas since they have dropped the word Velcro from the name we can assume they're not actually using real velcros anymore but some cheap shite. it just doesn't stick very well. I have had these boots pop open on my, which again I never had with the old boots.  If i wanted boots that pop open sponteneously I'd have bought some of them abortional Montrails. The problem is excaberated due to the fact the velcro straps are about 3inch longer than they used to be (and need to be) so they tend to pull open on the ground, and the strap is stiffer so the velcro can't get a good purchase on the curved surface of your foot. And the crowning turd in the waterpipe is instead of being a webbing backed strap it got the gay faux leatherette thing going on so you can't even cut it off and melt it closed with a fag lighter anymore to adjust the length.
5. The padded tongue on mine started to come away at the top almost immediatley.

Theres fucking progress for you. :boohoo:
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: GCW on March 12, 2007, 07:43:35 pm
So have they ruined the Pinks as well?  Bastards.
I always use the lace ups as the Velcro's heels were a bad fit on me.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: dave on March 12, 2007, 08:07:11 pm
I don't know, I think the pinks were always too narrow for me. The heel on the pinks always looked like it needed a redesign (or even just a design) and hence i can understand em giving that a new heel, but the velcros always seemed fine to me. dunno why they chose the "if it ain't broken then fuck it up good a proper" school of thought.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: GCW on March 12, 2007, 08:31:07 pm
Interesting.  I have wide feet and the lace ups were fine.  The velcro heel is just agony after 2 minutes- digs into my tendo Achilles.  What are the new(ish) Anasazi slippers or the V10s or Galileos like?  Worth having a look at them?  [yeah I know you need to try them on first ::)]
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Sloper on March 12, 2007, 10:09:22 pm
While we're on the subject of slabs anyone else done swooper? If so where did you go at the top?  I scuttled off left trying hard not to do an impression of a large brown snail.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: andy_e on March 13, 2007, 01:08:42 am
So have they ruined the Pinks as well?  Bastards.

They ruined the pinks by making them luminous green!
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: SA Chris on March 13, 2007, 07:35:33 am
Do you know what law they do follow then?  A nonlinear one? 

Rubber don't follow no law. Rubber is a renegade, operating above the law.

Word.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: butters on March 13, 2007, 08:19:29 am
Can't say I've noticed much diff from the old rubber. The new heel for the velcros, on the other hand, is a revelation

.....The problem is excaberated due to the fact the velcro straps are about 3inch longer than they used to be (and need to be) so they tend to pull open on the ground, and the strap is stiffer so the velcro can't get a good purchase on the curved surface of your foot.

You are 100% correct in this instance - those bloody straps are way too long!

bluebrad
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: james on March 13, 2007, 09:29:15 am
Just a note about the onyx rubber.  According to SCIENCE, the rubbere is stickier and tougher wearing.  Tested against C4 in many ways including an ever rotating/alternating sanding disk for a certain period of time, then the weat measured.  The onyx came out every time on top.  Not sure what other people have found out in practice, but my boots are lasting longer than ever and and I have been using onyx for almost 2 years now. :shrug:

Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 13, 2007, 09:49:17 am
You must be getting special pairs. I've been wearing Velcros for over ten years, been through at least 12 or 15 pairs. The last two pairs I've had have worn out quicker than any previous - alarmingly quickly. Of course my footwork could have taken a nosedive, or they're putting thinner rubber on.

Personally I find the heel an improvement. Its not amazing, but its a bit better.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: moose on March 13, 2007, 10:45:26 am
From what I can tell the new velcros are just completely different boots to the old.  It would probably have been less misleading for 5.10 to do what they did with the lace-ups and give them a different name and colour.  I never used to be able to get my feet properly into anasazi's without immediate crippledom but the new models fit very nicely.  The weird lumpy dead-space in the heels that the old model had even seems to be almost erradicated.  It's still there to an extent that would be a complete fuck-up for any other manufacturer but with 5.10 it just seems a quirky nod to their past!  Agree that the straps are shite though...

Main thing though is that the rubber is fantastic - I've never owned new shoes with either C4 or Onyx and it's been a revelation (I had always been a bit sceptical).  Not sure whether the frictional properties are strictly any better but it just feels somehow more trustworthy.  There seems to be less "creep" before it gives which encourages a positive approach and hence better slab skills (was very useful in Ariege). 

So good shoes overall but if they continue to wear out so quickly (not just the rubber but the seams etc) I'm not sure that I could justify another pair (maybe try Montrail Wassabis, or are Acopas any good?).  Oh well left to dream of a slightly softer Sportiva Katana with 5.10 rubber..... (mind you they no longer even stoock non-imaginary Sportiva's in the North East anymore).
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: GCW on March 13, 2007, 11:17:57 am
I've missed all this.  I always just re-order pinks off the web whenever there's an offer.  Now I'll have to go and try some boots on.  What a pain.  Any other recommendations?

Bring back Lasers  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: soapy on March 13, 2007, 11:34:50 am
so:

5.10s are now shit
boreal went shit
scarpas were always shit
sportivas are rarer than rocking horse shit
red chilis??
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 13, 2007, 11:46:12 am
I wouldn't say 5.10 were shit, they are still the best performers. During the window between breaking in and falling apart/ wearing out they are amazing, you just have to put up with that window being smaller than with other manufacturers.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: The Sausage on March 13, 2007, 12:26:15 pm
sorry, i haven't read the whole thread so if i'm repeating something that's already been said... apologies.
according to JB, keeping your heels as low as possible is key. my right ankle is a bit shot from breaking it and hence i can't raise my toes on that side. it makes standing on smears impossible - i'm basically front pointing. is there a corrolation between ankle flexibility (into dorsiflexion) and slab skills? you could try stretching your calf/achilles to improve?
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Paz on March 13, 2007, 12:59:17 pm

I didn't find Onyx wore out quicker, but I moved from 'stazis to Galilei's.  The velcro is a pain in the arse, and the tongue pad also wore out on mine too.

Rubber don't follow no law. Rubber is a renegade, operating above the law.

:-).  On the off chance: I know Rubber's supple; I can describe it's suppleness using the theory of elasticity, but I don't know what boundary condition describes friction apart from Coulomb \tau<=\sigma\mu\ (this one underlies my above argument).  I didn't spot any in Contact Mechanics.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: AndiT on March 13, 2007, 01:35:38 pm
I wouldn't say 5.10 were shit, they are still the best performers. During the window between breaking in and falling apart/ wearing out they are amazing, you just have to put up with that window being smaller than with other manufacturers.

It was just too small in my opinion. The pull-on tab would normally snap within a week and then the seam beneath your inside ankle bone would split and then the seams inside would come apart. All this would happen while the rubber separated from the toe rand in a split rather than wearing away. I put up with this for years, I would buy a pair, they'd break, I'd take 'em back then just let the new pair destruct before buying another new pair. They were sticky though and well fitting.

I think the cost of boots is the biggest off-put for buyers. You'll pay £60-£75 for a pair of boots, they could be anything from crap to amazing, you can't really test boots properly as you need to bed them in first, so people tend to just stick with what they know i.e. JB's decade in Velcro's. I think 5.10's marketing is very clever, if they changed how they looked and their name then this would be an opportunity for people to consider trying something else. How many people who love and stand by 5.10 have tried anything else in the last 5 years?

Surely there's a lot more to slab skills than rubber though otherwise how would wooodward ever got up anything!
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: webbo on March 13, 2007, 01:39:12 pm
Surely there's a lot more to slab skills than rubber though otherwise how would wooodward ever got up anything!

by using a ballpoint. ;)
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 13, 2007, 02:12:13 pm
I don't think 5.10's marketing is clever at all, they have just come up with a high performance product and had the wisdom or laziness not to change it much. Time has demonstrated they can get away with poor quality control, folk will still put up with it to have the edge in performance. And if the top guys wear them that's good enough for the rest, I know that's how I used to choose boots. I have tried others, either my wide feet didn't fit or the rubber wasn't as sticky, well both in most cases.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: John Gillott on March 13, 2007, 02:19:46 pm
Oh well left to dream of a slightly softer Sportiva Katana with 5.10 rubber..... (mind you they no longer even stoock non-imaginary Sportiva's in the North East anymore).

I've found the Barracuda's to be something close to what you want (softer version of the Katana).

Re rubber: Barracuda's have XS-Grip (vibram), as do the new Scarpa shoes I think.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: dave on March 13, 2007, 02:29:21 pm
i had some barracudas for a short period last year, cos one of the shops had them in cheap. but they started to split open after no time (strange for sportiva) so i took them back, but alas they had no more in my size, so i got some V10s (good at the front for steep stuff but dogshite heel). Shame cos they were very good. sportivas are usually very well made, and are good for wide feet - take note JB. The rubber, unlike boreal, never felt too bad, and unlike 5-10 the uppers don't fall to bits as much. boreal rubber you really had to work hard to get used to, and they were best just as they wore out. sportiva rubber seems a bit more of a happy medium, i.e. longer lasting than stealth, pretty sticky but not too hard or need too much wearing in. I think sportiva are the only boots i'd look at these days other than 5-10. boreal do some great fitting shapes and designs, bombproof build but ultimatley i don't have the inclination to learn how to climb again with the rubber.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Andy B on March 13, 2007, 02:34:32 pm
my right ankle is a bit shot from breaking it and hence i can't raise my toes on that side. it makes standing on smears impossible - i'm basically front pointing. is there a corrolation between ankle flexibility (into dorsiflexion) and slab skills?

Kim frontpoints everything, and has a very respectable slab pedigree (in my opinion). I think his theory is in maximising the pressure on a small spot and so minimising the slippage. (or that might be my theory for why he always gets up slabs in half the time and trauma it takes me.)
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: BD on March 15, 2007, 11:35:34 am
it's all a mind thing. i managed to climb my f7c(+) vertical/slab project (on a south facing limestone wall) this sunday around noon in tropical conditions (felt more like a summer holiday). guess what i used... resoled galileos. i don't even know what type of rubber they used but it's good enough apparently.

BD
on the other hand i also prefer 5.10's everytime i need a new pair. :whistle:
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Stubbs on March 15, 2007, 04:41:21 pm
(http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1209530/2/istockphoto_1209530_blank_gold_medal.jpg)
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on March 17, 2007, 09:49:42 am
Did Party Animal at Rivelin recently, after backing off it (in slightly claggy conditions) before when it seemed very tenuous to me. Obviously this is a very easy slab.....the difference being this time it felt very easy to ME! Raced up the first bit - it's covered in holds, the ripples and pockets are massive compared to what I've been bouldering on. Hardest bit was placing the cams. I was chuffed with an unusually confident ascent - guess the practise is working :)

I'm liking it, learning a new "feel".



Need to work a bit more on edgy slabs too (quarried grit styleee). Have been revising the section in Fawcett On Rock. Any other pointers??
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: GCW on March 17, 2007, 09:53:14 am
Well done Fiend!  Keep practising.  If you're at the plantation the slabby side of the pebble may be your cup of tea.  A couple of slabs and traverses.  And of course lots of slabby eliminates at Brownstones  :lol:
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 17, 2007, 10:51:58 am
Quote
Need to work a bit more on edgy slabs too (quarried grit styleee). Have been revising the section in Fawcett On Rock. Any other pointers??

For edgy slabs, go to Millstone with a few pads and do Sex Dwarves etc. You might need to ditch the baggy galileos though. After that any other holds will seem massive.

Keep reading Fawcett on rock until you can recite most of it. Get the wife to give you caption tests on the photos.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Houdini on March 17, 2007, 11:03:01 am
Sex Dwarves!  Class name - don't care if it's good, just have to do it!  What am I saying?!  With a name like Sex Dwarves it has to be ace.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on March 17, 2007, 09:23:45 pm
For edgy slabs, go to Millstone with a few pads and do Sex Dwarves etc. You might need to ditch the baggy galileos though. After that any other holds will seem massive.

Hmmm, good plan.

Any ideas for specific technical awareness, like what was recommended for smeary stuff? I think I'm alright on crimpy slabs....but still....always stuff to learn.

Don't worry, despite cubanallstar's eye-rolling dismissimal of my bumbly trad footwear, the real shite is reserved for indoor walls...
 
Quote
Keep reading Fawcett on rock until you can recite most of it. Get the wife to give you caption tests on the photos.

LOL, was just showing her the photos in there, and she insisted on reading the captions instead of listening ;). All I can remember is Don't stand on the snow...
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 18, 2007, 11:34:31 am
I think edging is more straightforward than smearing. Just be precise, use the side of your boot rather than right on the toe, practice feeling solid on your outside edge as well - you can step much higher off an outside edge.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on March 18, 2007, 12:14:48 pm
And remembering that edging moves are designer moves, sharp tight and aggressive...
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 18, 2007, 03:54:10 pm
Don't get too obsessed with the numbers though. I wouldn't want you losing sleep through nightmares about multiplying errors.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: r-man on May 05, 2007, 11:55:57 am
It just occured to me that a physio exercise might be quite good at developing balance and leg strength.

The exercise involves standing on one leg with your eyes closed for as long as you can - ideally over a minute. Easy enough if you have a fully working leg. But try doing it whilst standing on your toes...

I'm sure practicing this must have slab climbing benefits. Obviously balance is partly a knack, but having stronger legs has got to make it much easier...
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: dontfollowme on May 06, 2007, 01:47:11 pm
How often do you climb with your eyes closed? I am not trying to be smart here but the eyes play a major part in balance. I agree that having strong legs helps with high steps etc.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: r-man on May 06, 2007, 03:03:34 pm
I am not trying to be smart here but the eyes play a major part in balance.

Yes, which is why doing this exercise with your eyes closed strengthens the muscles needed to balance...because they have to work harder.

I agree that having strong legs helps with high steps etc.

Yes, and it helps with balance too. The point is that if you can do this with your eyes closed, it's going to be much easier with your eyes open.

I'm sure that as well as muscular improvements, this also helps with body awareness - you have to concentrate very carefully on your body to keep in balance. Seems reasonable to me that this mastering this skill would have benefits for slab climbing.

Don't really understand what you are having issues with..? :-\
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Paz on May 08, 2007, 12:14:21 pm
That sounds like what I do at the bottom of the crag when I try to put my rock boots on without standing them in mud, and without falling over off any cliffs, so you must be on to a winner.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: r-man on May 08, 2007, 12:32:53 pm
Indeed. Though I can't see any benefit in doing that with your eyes closed...     ;D
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Paz on May 08, 2007, 02:05:22 pm
That'd be taking the `to onsight you need to be led blind folded to the bottom of your climb' joke too far.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: cider nut on May 21, 2007, 08:21:32 pm
Main thing though is that the rubber is fantastic - I've never owned new shoes with either C4 or Onyx and it's been a revelation (I had always been a bit sceptical).  Not sure whether the frictional properties are strictly any better but it just feels somehow more trustworthy.  There seems to be less "creep" before it gives which encourages a positive approach and hence better slab skills (was very useful in Ariege). 

Somebody (and I can't remember who, so I don't know how true this is) once told me the 'creep' is called the 'shear coefficient'.  5.10's have a different shear coefficient, so once they go they go.  Other makes creep gradually until you slip off.  This same person pointed out that if the 5.10 rubber was just sticker simple as that, everybody would be wearing them.  The truth is that some people suit different types of rubber.  I suit 5.10's, as if my feet start to slip I think they're never going to stop - that's why I'm crap at walking down hills quickly, I have to make sure each foot is stable before I put any weight on it.

How many people who love and stand by 5.10 have tried anything else in the last 5 years?

My confidence in my feet (and hence my footwork) took a giant lead forwards when I bought some 5.10's.  (I'd forgotten my shoes once, and borrowed a pair of Ascents that were 2 sizes too big, and I could stick with those way better than what I was wearing).  I was a convert and said I'd always buy 5.10's.  My first pair lasted forever (well, well a year, about 4 times as long as my bumbly RC Spirits), testament to the improvement they gave me.  When I needed a new pair the shop didn't have any 5.10's, and I was talked into buying a pair of Montail Wasabi's.  They fit like a dream, and the triple velcro straps helped, but I found them so slippy I had very little confidence in my feet again.  So I've tried other stuff, and never again! 

I've just graduated from Ascents to Sirens, as even though Ascents feel great in terms of stick, they don't fit me well and make my feet ache big style, and if I try to heel hook they slide off.  I've only had the Sirens two weeks (my first experience of Onyx), but they seem pretty darn good so far.

It just occured to me that a physio exercise might be quite good at developing balance and leg strength.
The exercise involves standing on one leg with your eyes closed for as long as you can - ideally over a minute. Easy enough if you have a fully working leg. But try doing it whilst standing on your toes...
I'm sure practicing this must have slab climbing benefits. Obviously balance is partly a knack, but having stronger legs has got to make it much easier...

That makes sense to me.  I'm no expert at all, but it seems logical that to work a skill, you could break it down into its component parts - feet along, then eyes, try poorer/better boots etc.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: RopeBoy on June 02, 2007, 02:23:28 am
Hi Fiend,

Sounds like you're doing pretty well on the slabs already.

There's a little slab at Burb N to the left and up near the top of the crag of the Ash Tree Wall area that is good to do with no hands. Whenever we're in the area I tend to try and do it, first with minimal hand contact as I remember to trust in my feet and then with no hands. It's good because it oddly feels bold despite being tiny so is really good to make you trust your feet.

J :-)
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on December 04, 2014, 10:17:36 am
The hold out right on Shock Horror, yeah I saw one, a shallow pocket thing. I just thought since the guide was clear about no boulder, that one was supposed to start very direct. That hold could have helped...
Threadomancy alert!

Does Shock Horror use the arete to pull off the ground? If not, then, errr, how?
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Johnny Brown on December 04, 2014, 11:31:43 am
Shock horror has lost several pebbles in the last few years. You can start very direct via a very thin pull on bad slopey edges, using a good foothold under the roof. I can't do this unless it's very good nick. Otherwise there is a good pocket high right, or of course you can bridge or use the arete.
Title: Re: Slab skills...
Post by: Fiend on December 04, 2014, 04:25:19 pm
Okay, that's useful info. That "good" pocket (the one next to a diagonal hold), I can't reach until I'm off the ground with my feet in the break. I did manage to get off the ground using the arete and a high sloping pebble for me left, even that was about a 30% move (in good nick no less). It then got too dark to do another move!
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