UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: grimer on April 13, 2005, 01:15:26 pm
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Just to say that there's a BMC Peak Area meeting this thursday at the Devonshire Arms, Pilsley, and a couple of things are coming up. One is the stuff about the RSPB taking over management of many of the Eastern Edges, and what implication this could have on climbing there. Many RSPB members have quite a thing about climbers, and the effect they have on their feathered friends.
The other one is erosion to boulders and bouldering areas. In short, many of them are being trashed, crumbling footholds, erosion at the base etc. Should something be done about it, and if so, what. It is often said that something should be, putting some sort of coating on crumbling holds etc, although apart from chippings (wood, that is) at curbar, nothing gets done. I am worried that at the meeting 29 grey bearded men agree to ban bouldering, and of course it would count for nothing. Just wondering if some activists could come along to give any discussion some validity.
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Would be on a bastard Thursday wouldn't it ie along with Tuesday the night when working climbers train or go climbing. Might try and climb tonight and do meeting Thurs.
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I know these meetings are no doubt on the BMC site for months in advance, but why do they only seem to get brought up on web forums the day before?
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Only just thought of posting it on here to be honest.
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sorry that wasn't a dig at you G, but i've just lost count of the number of times i've looked at cocktalk and seen a thread titled along the lines of "peak area meeting tomorrow". no wonder i've never been to any!
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its always posted on ukc when they're due. they should be posted here too.
grimer - think me and vince noir are coming. we don't have beards and we aren't grey.
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we don't have beards and we aren't grey
you will have by half nine on thursday
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Register your email with Simon Mannsimonm@thebmc.co.uk (at a meeting is easy) and you get email warning of meetings in plenty time. Then you can plan your training schedule with it in account. Though of course you would be excused if it caused you to peak on the wrong day.
Were the chippings at Curbar a BMC initiative then?? Amazing. It reminds me of a kids playground now. And thats just the problems.
Any chance of a fully intergrated drainage system at remergence next??
Seriously though, would everyone on UKB support a voluntary ban on, say, The Pebble while topsoil was replaced and grass reseeded and established?? Might take 6 months to a year.
I can't help thinking with the ubiquity of pads erosion should be getting less not more. Or are numbers really going c-r-a-z-y?
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Seriously though, would everyone on UKB support a voluntary ban on, say, The Pebble while topsoil was replaced and grass reseeded and established?? Might take 6 months to a year.
I think this would be a really good idea and should be seriously considered. I remember when there was a nice flat grassy landing under deliverence and it's just a mess there now.
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I think Summer is a divine reminder to leave the eastern edges alone for six months of the year anyway. Not using a selection of boulders during the period when they are hot, horrible and infested with midges would not be any great hardship for me. However I suspect it might take a while longer for vegetation to re-establish in a way which would survive usage once a ban came off.
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Oh, and will post here from now on. But this goes for all the area too, and I don'e want to swamp this board with these notices. Perhaps at the start of each session i will put something up.
Peak Agenda (http://www.thebmc.co.uk/thebmc/areacom/agendas/Pkag0504.pdf)
Peak Location (http://uk2.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=print&X=424000&Y=371000&gride=423995&gridn=371029&scale=25000&coordsys=gb&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=DE451UL&place=&width=600&height=500&db=)
And while I'm at it, there is a SouthWest one this weekend on Sunday evening in Bristol
SW agenda (http://www.thebmc.co.uk/thebmc/areacom/agendas/SWag0504.pdf)
SW location (http://uk2.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?pc=BS3%201JF&scale=25000&title=BMC%2bMap&cat=ind)
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Seriously though, would everyone on UKB support a voluntary ban on, say, The Pebble while topsoil was replaced and grass reseeded and established??
no. you wouldn't surely?!? you are aware this is the boulder with your nemesis on?
i'd wholeheartedly support a ban at white edge, gardoms north, causeway slabs, yarncliffe quarry, stanton moor, etc etc..
i would support a ban really. it would be like getting the pitch ready for the next season. a may to september ban maybe when the rock is virtually unclimable anyway?
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Were the chippings at Curbar a BMC initiative then??
No, don't know who did that.
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we don't have beards and we aren't grey
I have both, so I don't have to attend :wink:
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remergence really needs a new bag of gravel, its propper wack right now for puddles and shit. was thinking of doing it myself and ting. but then as its now too warm for what i'd be going there for i might hang fire.
I'd be quite happy to take a voluntary ban on bouldering on the pebble and the business boulder.
P.S. is the ground erosion at bouldering places really any worse than it is at birchens, popular end, curbar etc. They've been devoid of any greenery and stuff for decades but i don't see anyone banning punters and picnics? :wink:
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i would support a ban really. it would be like getting the pitch ready for the next season. a may to september ban maybe when the rock is virtually unclimable anyway?
Unfortunately, I think that this is when the masses descend. By the way, if anyone knows the facts about the resin that is used at the Bridestones and in the county, and how they have worked, you could bring those opinions along.
On this issue, I personally don't think that someone like the BMC should be involved, as it is a tricky issue, and once things become official, they become complicated. I think something like this is often best done at grass-roots level. However, this could be somewhere to decide this, as well as places like this forum, and I suppose what the BMC can do is to gather evidence.
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Seriously though, would everyone on UKB support a voluntary ban on, say, The Pebble while topsoil was replaced and grass reseeded and established?? Might take 6 months to a year.
Yeah i'd support it, though you could have done it in the past year ive been injured. I just get back into it and i'm banned from bouldering! :( :wink:
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As Bonjoy says, recreating the verdant pasture that was below deliverance won't be done in a few months. But hopefully it would only need doing once.
I remember how it happened - some fool had a fire beneath the right arete. That left a sunken bare patch, during the next downfall the puddle behind the pebble found a new drain and washed all the soil away.
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P.S. is the ground erosion at bouldering places really any worse than it is at birchens, popular end, curbar etc. They've been devoid of any greenery and stuff for decades but i don't see anyone banning punters and picnics?
No, but what these 'bans' are about is not prohibiting boulderers from climbing, its to promote growth and the local environment. It's just about keeping your house in order. It's your own responsibility, and whether you decide on a voluntary ban, or to accept that there's not much you can do about it, I think the onus is on us all to actively address the issue.
And Dave, I don't want to let the cat out of the bag amongst the pigeons, but there are plans afoot to carpet Birchens.
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P.S. is the ground erosion at bouldering places really any worse than it is at birchens, popular end, curbar etc. They've been devoid of any greenery and stuff for decades but i don't see anyone banning punters and picnics?
Nah its no worse - but it is getting rapidly worse at the moment. From an environmental point of view its neither here nor there - the only reason is to increase peeps enjoyment. I was in the churnet on sunday and it was amazing to have a proper grass landing - certainly makes a difference for my enjoyment.
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can we some other people off here coming along then? apparently there's free slop n shit and people obviously have opinions on here which might, only might, be worth airing.
if we're putting bark under deliverance can we have a death slide down from the joker too. i fucking love death slides.
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I recon we'd all be surprised how fast the grass and shit will grow back - for example when I remember burbage west being opened up after foot and mouth and there was already bracken browing back through the paths. The main problem is that the soil won't grow back.
Please god lets not have any resin done like the stuff at the bridies, most of that just looks like its had mortar smeared all over the place.
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Please god lets not have any resin done like the stuff at the bridies, most of that just looks like its had mortar smeared all over the place.
i'll second that. S-U-B-T-L-E yo.
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if we're putting bark under deliverance can we have a death slide down from the joker too. i fucking love death slides.
Fuck yeah!!!
Genius. :lol: :crazy: :worthy: :lol:
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can we some other people off here coming along then? apparently there's free slop n shit and people obviously have opinions on here which might, only might, be worth airing.
if thats an offer of a lift then i'm there.
you and your big mouth eh?
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Were the chippings at Curbar a BMC initiative then??
No, don't know who did that.
From the house on the corner, I think they had some left over from something and kindly put them down.
Blimey, it looks like it could be quite busy tomorrow evening, I might actually not nod off like usual, which is one of the reasons I stopped going.
Perhaps someone should warn them that there might be a good turn out, they won't be expecting that! :-)
J
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can we some other people off here coming along then? apparently there's free slop n shit and people obviously have opinions on here which might, only might, be worth airing.
if thats an offer of a lift then i'm there.
you and your big mouth eh?
rearrange this sentence: not no it's.
reckon it's your turn to drive son, now you've acquired the gift...
come on y'all. strength in numbers.
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Blimey, it looks like it could be quite busy tomorrow evening, I might actually not nod off like usual, which is one of the reasons I stopped going.
Oh yes, i feel honour bound to remind everyone of the word committe in the title, and not to expect to be having a great time or anything. And Gary Griswald is doing a slideshow after.
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soz ard, our motor is doing an exon valdez, so till monday its dry-docked.
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we don't play by your rules grimer-san. submit with honour to a duel.
i love photos of quarries.
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Rather than banning people from the whole crag, wouldn't it be easier just to cordon off areas that are getting a makeover - it would only be the base of certain boulders wouldn't it? I'm sure if there was a little sign up giving the reason why it was being done then most people would respect it wouldn't they?
This would also have the advantage of reaching people who weren't aware of the ban - not everyone surfs the climbing forums or reads the mags.
Just an idea.
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Not sure if anyone read any of it but I put a few links on the rock treatment idea on this thread. http://ukbouldering.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=3841
Might be worth a look if you don't know much about the ins and outs of stone consolidants.
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I'm going to make the effort, I've felt like I should for a while.
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wouldn't it be easier just to cordon off areas that are getting a makeover
That was the idea wasn't it? Though I think banning deliverance for a year could be more difficult than I'd like....
If Ru will be there does that mean we can have a serious debate entitled:
"Give the yanks the V and bring the font to the front"
on the future of bouldrin grades in the uk.
All those in favour say "aye"
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Oui
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reckon I'll try and get down...
on the pebble issue, what about filling the ground in / re-turfing?
Alongside a moritorium on use, might help?
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What about a rotating 'no climb' zone? The ring ouzle thing was well respected.
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Which areas are actually banned at Stanage then, with regards to the Ring Ouzel
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how much did popular boulders recover in the summer of foot and mouth? i wasn't climbing at the time so didn't notice. was there a discernable impact? for any meaningful ban would we be looking at least a couple of years?
Having a rotating ban would increase the concentration on other areas?
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I'm not convinced much did happen during F 'n M. If you don't visit a grit crag between feb and may the bracken growth will always be surprising. Besides, rampant bracken isn't great from an ecological point of view.
What I would suggest is a very localised programme of trying to restore topsoil and grass. The Deliverance face of the Pebble is the obvious candidate - in the last 8 years it has lost nearly a foot of soil, and at least 25 sq yds of grass. The key is to restore the vegetation which binds the ground. Once it goes the soil/ gravel below just get washed away.
Just targeting the worst areas, one at a time, wouldn't have much effect on the climbing. Across the peak, it might mean 10 or so problems, on one or two boulders, out of action each year. Inevitably this would include at least one classic. Again, using the pebble as an example, you wouldn't even need to ban the whole block. Too much to ask? Nah... I reckon it needs a break. Might help people find other classics too
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What about drainage gutters or pipes to stop big puddles forming in places like the remergence block? They could be buried and completely invisible - my next door neighbour has some sort of drainage system under his lawn and his grass is never boggy. :idea:
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Which areas are actually banned at Stanage then, with regards to the Ring Ouzel
I couldn't find the info on thebmc.co.uk, but I believe it's only areas on the far right...ie round to the right of Hamper's Hang, etc.
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I'm only a punter, but as an (ex) fisherman (they traditionally have a "closed season" on the rivers) I'd be totally down with a 3-6 month ban on the gritstone (I mean it's hardly worth the effort between May and October anyway. Is it?).
It would give every(grit)where a chance to recuperate. Maybe longer is favourable on certain problems?
I would certainly support it and I know a few who would as well.
Looking forward to hearing the results of tomorrows meeting, wish I was there!
STS
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I'm all in favour of selective voluntary bans to allow some regeneration of stuff but I can already hear the howls of 'elitist' protest from the punters who go bouldering on the grit on sunny June days and think that good conditions are all about shoe rubber sticking to the rock... I'd like to see a good turf job under deliverance and the business boulder pour example..
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Right, I'm having transport difficulties, is anyone going to the meeting from Manchester??
Selective voluntary bans sound a good idea, coupled with a bit of restorative work, resoiling, replanting grasses etc.
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i don't see the sense in a blanket ban on all grit - what would be the point of that? Nothing like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut.
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If you're going, just letting you know, John Horscroft chairs it. There are two older fellas there usually, Dave Bishop, who is the access rep for Staffordshire, and Hot Henry Folkard, who does stuff around here. These two are awesome. Hot Henry is a one man army against bird and other restrictions, and Dave is convinced that the massive rise in foothold erosion in Newstones etc is down to wire brushing etc. If it's your first visit, in a large grey room full of babble, these are a couple of peole worth listening to.
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Not a ban on all grit, just the bits that need erosion repair.
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but I can already hear the howls of 'elitist' protest from the punters who go bouldering on the grit on sunny June days and think that good conditions are all about shoe rubber sticking to the rock
They just need to be educated that it's nothing to do with elitism - they'll be as pissed as everyone else if the place is totally trashed in a few years time. And winter isn't a good time for plant growth so it realistically needs to be in the spring and summer.
I think selective bans is a great idea - surely people can live without Deliverance for a season?
The Peak Park(?) and similar bodies must have some pretty good idea of what it takes for ground to regenerate, as they've been diverting footpaths to allow the ground to repair for donkey's.
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I'd guess that a turf 'graft' from a suitably similar location or re-seeding with trample resistant species (rather than the native veg) might be the way forward. At least that seems to be what i've seen done around eroded footpaths in the past.I think it could be quite hard to get a stable soil structure, integrated with the surrounding area and resistant to erosion. Having said that i've also seen meshing used before (at Harsison's I think) to hold together soil structure.
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Can I have one of them grafts on the top of my head then Lovejoy :lol:
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They've not been at you with he wire brush again, dave?
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Although I'm also in favour of the selective ban, won't it just re-direct all the traffic to the next 'best' problems and they'll become trashed.
Also for blocks like remergence and possibly warfare, which wouldnt win any natural beauty awards, couldnt some sort of matting like popular end car park go underneath them?
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matting would be good at remergance, but then again the occaisional bag of gravel also does the trick. don't think theres anything needed at GW, and theres no erosion at remergence, its just a puddle, but since its naturally surounded by rocks i don't think the soil can be washed away anywhere really.
I wouldn't have thought that banning a couple of faces of a couple of boulders would make any noticable increase in traffic elsewhere.
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I know these meetings are no doubt on the BMC site for months in advance, but why do they only seem to get brought up on web forums the day before?
Sorry if everyone missed my posts on UKC, but I usually flag it up a month or so before the meeting and then a week before. In future I'll post here as well (or Grimer will).
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its always posted on ukc when they're due. they should be posted here too.
grimer - think me and vince noir are coming. we don't have beards and we aren't grey.
I promise beards aren't compulsory.............
just preferred
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P.S. is the ground erosion at bouldering places really any worse than it is at birchens, popular end, curbar etc. They've been devoid of any greenery and stuff for decades but i don't see anyone banning punters and picnics? :wink:
Good point. My cunning plan is that we have a look at sorting out some of the worst eroded boulders first and then move on to the main crag. Either we do this off our own back or someone a lot less sympathetic will tell us to do it..............
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As Bonjoy says, recreating the verdant pasture that was below deliverance won't be done in a few months. But hopefully it would only need doing once.
I remember how it happened - some fool had a fire beneath the right arete. That left a sunken bare patch, during the next downfall the puddle behind the pebble found a new drain and washed all the soil away.
There are some pretty cunning ploys we can use to speed the regeneration and there must be some experts out there we can nobble for advice. But it's crucial that the bouldering community is consulted and agrees with whatever we do...............
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Rather than banning people from the whole crag, wouldn't it be easier just to cordon off areas that are getting a makeover - it would only be the base of certain boulders wouldn't it? I'm sure if there was a little sign up giving the reason why it was being done then most people would respect it wouldn't they?
Spot on. If we do it on a rotational basis, everyone still gets to climb and we get the job done. May take a bit longer, but we'll carry people with us.........
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And I'm a bit pissed off that there's none of the juvenile banter on this forum that you tend to get on UKC. Bloody hell you boulderers are dead mature...............
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I'm still trying to get a lift over to the meeting, but if I fail, can I say that I agree with all points concerning regeneration of eroded areas, rotating restrictions to allow regrowth, consulting on best regrowth startegies, and on judicious use of resin type stuff on eroding patches on boulders a la Bowden.
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I'm still trying to get a lift over to the meeting, but if I fail, can I say that I agree with all points concerning regeneration of eroded areas, rotating restrictions to allow regrowth, consulting on best regrowth startegies, and on judicious use of resin type stuff on eroding patches on boulders a la Bowden.
Where are you? I might be able to swing past and pick you up.
JH
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Id need a lift back too, but I'm on oxford road at MMU law school
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Sorry, that's in Manchester!
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Oh, now that would be a bit of a run out!! Sorry! Hope someone else comes to your rescue.............
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I'm still trying to get a lift over to the meeting, but if I fail, can I say that I agree with all points concerning regeneration of eroded areas, rotating restrictions to allow regrowth, consulting on best regrowth startegies, and on judicious use of resin type stuff on eroding patches on boulders a la Bowden.
ditto.
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not been on interweb for last couple of days (training hard on board - honest). I prob would have gone over for this but I guess its too late now.
Re: re-turfing. I fully support this type of thing. Using trample resistant types of grass would be a plus and also using turf instead of grass seeds should considerably cut down on time certain problems are out of action for, although there is a greater cost. Anyone fancy posting on some gardening forums?
Keen to hear what comes out of thisd meeting
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Well? Do we have a 10 year bouldering site regeneration plan as ratified by the BMC ready to submit to the Peak Park people?
Oh well.
Sorry I couldn't make it. I'll keep a look out for the next one in advance and try and get to that.
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No grand plan as yet, but we should be able to put together a group who can look at the problem and come up with a plan for us. Important the group includes plenty of active boulderers and some people with relevant expertise. Any takers??
JH
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The bouldering related debate could have been a bit longer and was not helped by ill informed people taking up most of the discussion time with daft comments like:
" Bouldering mats are bad because they encourage people to try things which are too hard for them"
"Gritstone doesn't erode through climbing, it only polishes, therefore all damage on boulder probs is done by evil boulderers weilding wire brushes and chisels"
" All chipping is done by climbers"
Some good points were made though. No decisions were made. I think the general climbing community has some catching up to do on the debate.
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In reply to Bonjoy:
I'm afraid that tends to be the way with these debates. Very little actually gats sorted out at the meeting, but it lets people know there's an issue. If we can all get behind Simon Jaques now and help him to get a team together, then we can really start to achieve something. Thanks for turning out!
JH
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i'd have to echo bonjoy's comments. it was quite frustrating at times. i think most of the people who've posted on here will be willing to contribute in some way, be it only through further discussion, but i think we need to decide what can and should be done.
we have to also understand we aren't dealing with one rock type. again another point for further discussion.
john - would you/simon get a group/meeting together of people who are informed just to look at these issues?
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Interesting meeting generally, missed a bit about the RSPB but I'm sure the minutes will explain. And no discussion about the BMC itself, which is a marked improvement on the last one I attended.
I'd be keen to be involved in any re-turfing / resining projects.
What perhaps most didn't understand last night was just how localised any turf repair would be. We're really talking about a small number of spots that have recently lost vegetation and are deteriorating fast.
I think the chipping was a red herring though. I haven't seen any chipping in the last 5 years which is obviously done by climbers. I have seen a lot of fast erosion of holds which seems to grow exponentially once started.
Oh, and John, if you want to read some drivel, look at Cofe's 'most wildly accurately graded problem' thread. Generally this kind of thing is kept well contained on UKB ;)
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i'm sorry. i though you said your name was alotta fagina?
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it's not funny
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get her
(http://www.treats4chicks.co.uk/img/pink-jelly-handbag.jpg)
on topic: ground erosion should be tackled first but the erosion on rock should be given equal weight. chipping, by climbers or otherwise, will be far more difficult to resolve.
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I agree with the comment made at the meeting that experienced bodies should be consulted on the ground erosion measures (ie footpath restores).
On the foothold erosion thing I think the sooner the better on trialling materials. Summer would probably be the best time to apply as the rock will be drier. I am happy to get involved in this in some way. As has been said before Joe Picalli does architectural repair for a living so may know something about products available, does anyone have contact details and the stuff used on southern sandstone is an obvious candidate.
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Is that an Elvis and Camilla handbag? How rare!
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What perhaps most didn't understand last night was just how localised any turf repair would be. We're really talking about a small number of spots that have recently lost vegetation and are deteriorating fast.
Do you think straight returfing would work? My experience of those areas is that although vegetation loss has taken place, and the shallow mineral soil has been removed, there's also been hefty compaction of the remaining soil as well - might be a difficult substrate to get regrowth on?
You may need to speak to people who have some experience of this - might need to look at de-compaction of the remaining ground and use of geotextiles to help longer term stability. Would the people who work for the peak park know about this?
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In reply to Johnny Brown:
Yep, we're trying to put something together. Trouble is as with all these things, we're all volunteers and running to stand still. Keep the pressure up, keep the debate going and give us whatever help you can. Email if there's anything specific you'd like to do or if you're interested in the working group.
Cheers
JH :?
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Brick stabiliser is the stuff used to sort out crumbling holds. Been successfully used in Northumberland - works well.
As to the damage done to ground under boulders (eg: The Pebble at Stanage), the ground is completely ruined and will take many years to fix. The top soil has gone (the medium that vegetation grows in) and the sub soil has been compacted to death by plumetting boulderers, making it impermeable to rainwater and anything else (eg: grass seed, etc). You could re-turf it, re-seed it, whatever, the stuff won't grow. Leave it alone for 10 years or so, and you might be in business. I guess the ten year bouldering ban at Stanage would not be so well supported.
Whats done is done. I'm sure Stanage edge had grass under it once, all the way up to the base of the routes. The damage can't be undone, and attempts to put grass back will almost certainly be fruitless, so why don't we look at another solution. If you did mange to re-grass the plantation, it would be gone within a couple of weeks bouldering action anyway!
How about some nice pea gravel, or some wood chip....maybe a water feature.....
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Sand seems to work well in font.
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Brick stabiliser is the stuff used to sort out crumbling holds. Been successfully used in Northumberland - works well.
What problems has it been used in northumberland? Someone told me that it was used on vienna, but from what i've seen of late the footholds on vienna are just as sandy as they have been in the past.
I agree however that redoing the gress probably won't last if i'm honest. If you look at photos of stanage from the 20s the whole ground was covered in heater and stuff like moorland, but by guess is that was all long gone by like the 70s if not earlier, the difference being at the crag theres a bed of rocks in many cases to stop the erosion going too deep, but you don't get that at the boulders usually.
And for the record i don't buy this crap (as spurted on cocktalk) that bouldering guides make ths situation worse. If bouldering guides dind't exist thed it'd be even worse cos we'd ALL be at the plantation every week cos we wouldn't know of all the other places.
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The Crack was fixed in the County using brick stabilizing jiz, as was the starting flake on Vienna. The foot holds may have been done, but it sounds like they need doing again. Of course, there never used to be any footholds years ago...... I'll ask the Earl what else was mended, but there were a few problems that got sorted out.
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I agree however that redoing the gress probably won't last if i'm honest.
I agree with this but would also add that we need to be very careful in establishing self-imposed bans. This could be taken as a precedent by environmental lobbies to suddenly start pushing us for all sorts of things, after all if we are prepared to not climb in areas because of missing grass then it is going to be difficult to argue that we should be allowed to climb in areas with rare, semi-rare or even common birds.
And for the record i don't buy this crap (as spurted on cocktalk) that bouldering guides make ths situation worse. If bouldering guides dind't exist thed it'd be even worse cos we'd ALL be at the plantation every week cos we wouldn't know of all the other places.
I don't think people on Rocktalk are really taking that seriously. It is quite obvious to most who think about it that you are correct in your assessment - remove guides and people just go to the obvious places which happen to be the ones suffering the worst erosion anyway.
Alan
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I think the woodchip idea is a good one. seems regrassing is not really viable.
anyone tested this brick stabaliser on grit yet? does it have any side effects eg make holds smooth or weaken the whole structure etc...
where would be a good place to test, footholds on the arete at higgar?
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The woodchips were put down by the ranger in the lodge next to the trackside...
i thought it was a good idea - although the woodchips now have been scattered.
However using them everywhere?? hmmm dunno....
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I would not write off the idae of re-grassing without first speaking to people in the know ie footpath restorers. I also don't see what we have to loose running a trial re-growth on one boulder then we can say yay or nay with some confidence and we only forfeit one boulder for a year or whatever. It doesn't have to be something as popular as the pebble for this, there are plenty of areas of heavy erosion under fairly minor stuff.
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I'd agree with that.
I don't like the woodchip idea - parts of the peak look enough like a supermarket car park already.
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I agree with Percy about the difficulty of restoring the devegetated and compacted ground around boulders like the pebble. I did a study into the vegetation under popular areas of stanage and the quieter areas of bamford at uni. The species of grass you find around the pebble for example are the most disturbance and trampling tolerant. Hence the reason there are so few species compared to the less climbed on areas, which are far more diverse. And Percy is also right about the compacted nature of the remaining subsoil being useless for the growth of new plants. There are no places for seeds to get established and those that do get trampled before they get a chance to thrive. Unfortunately for places like the pebble, a localised ban for a year or two would allow some regeneration but again the the first generation of colonising plants would not be the disturbance tolerant ones and the erosion would return as soon as significant numbers of climbers returned. A long term ban is what would do the trick but as pointed out already thats hardly going to be acceptable.
I think the demand from climbers to use locations like the plantation and other popular areas is always going to make the trade off between protecting the environment around the boulders and actually being able to climb on them a difficult one. Wood chip works in some places but does make the trackside boulder for example feel more like a playground in the park. AndyR's idea of a geotextile that could provide some stability for the topsoil underneath boulders is a good one but again time would need to be given to allow the plants to recolonise properly. I don't think the use of disturbance tolerant non-native or even non-local species is an ecologically sensitive idea and I'm not sure there are that many species that could tolerate the disturbance given by bouldering throughout the winter. Its during winter that the soil is most saturated and when the most damage is done by trampling feet. Thats why farmers don't go near there fields with heavy machinery during the winter months.
At the end of the day the problem can be fixed but in my opinion it would take a combination of some remedial treatment (geotextile, topsoil replacement and reseeding with native species) and a change in the habits of climbers, i.e. go somewhere else for a period long enough to allow the vegetation to sort itself out. And how long would that be? Who knows but it would perhaps be longer than we'd feel acceptable.
Right. As I climb down from my soap box I await a howl of complaints, corrections and counter suggestions.
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I think such measures should be put in place for as long as it takes.
If a long ban on a particular boulder is deemed unacceptable by some people, then really I think they need educating. Imagine how the Pebble will look in 10 years time if nothing is done? It'll be a complete fucking mess.
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Whats the point though, Bubs? You ban climbing on the Stanage boulders for 5 years, and repair the damage under the blocks, reseed the soil, etc.
So, after your 5 years is up, everything is looking lovely. You let boulderers back for 2 weeks and it will look the same as it did 5 years ago!
Climbers walking around blocks will kill the vegetation. Even with pads, the falling climbers will compact the soil making it useless for vegetation growth.
The only way to fix the erosion problem is to ban bouldering - an option that I think we would all find unacceptable.
Therefore I think temporary bans are a stupid idea. Lets think of a way of minimising any further damage rather than shooting ourselves in the feet.
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I agree with Bubba. To be honest there are loads of places to boulder and although they may not be the same quality we really should be more sensitive otherwise complete bans like that place in Italy (or is it switerland?) will be forced upon us.
The huge increase in popularity of bouldering has increased beyond the volume that the peak can sustainably cope with and I think some measures will have to be put in place and we will have to change our ways slightly to ensure that our environmental impact is minimised. As I said before it is just bad luck that the best bouldering season coincides with the worst time to trample sensitive vegetation and that the impacts are so visible.
However, I also agree with Percy. I wouldn't like to see a complete ban on bouldering and I for one would respect and help where I could any initiative to reduce our impact whilst maintaining the right to climb.
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You let boulderers back for 2 weeks and it will look the same as it did 5 years ago!
No it won't - that's a very pessimistic point of view - it took years for it to get into it's current state.
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...useful knowledge......
So Bigphil, you're saying that recolonisation by the more trample-resistant species would take several years, even with minimal disturbance and use of reinforcing geotextiles?
If so, it would seem that more intrusive methods might be necessary? Are there alternatives to stone paving/woodchips/gravel etc?
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that's a very pessimistic point of view - it took years for it to get into it's current state.
This is true, but it only takes a couple of weeks of folk walking on the same bit of ground for the vegetation to die. This is how paths are formed, and we know how quick bracken, heather and grass disappear when continually walked upon. I admit that soil loss (as can be seen under Deliverance, for example) has taken a lot longer
Am I being pessimistic, or realistic?
Management a la Harrisons Rocks could be the answer, with the base of the crag/boulders being terraced and filled with gravel or something.
However, you will not find the utopian grassy landings under any popular boulder problems - it is simply not a realistic thing to expect. Neither is banning bouldering at certain areas realistic. There used to be grass under the popular end of Stanage many years ago. I wonder if a ban on climbing routes on the eastern edges to allow grass to grow back would be a popular choice?
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Oh, and climbing bans at most other bouldering areas in the worlds have come about for a variety of reasons, but I can't think of an instance where an area has been closed due to loss of vegetation or erosion.
Hueco - banned because of the (perceived) threat posed by climbers to the rock art there
Cresciano - Access threatened by the quarry company who wanted to blow it up for roadstone
Meschia - Access severly restricted as the land the boulders are on is used by the locals to grow chestnuts (the major source of income for the locals), and the hundreds of climbers filling the places with shit, toilet paper, litter, etc. was not perceived as a good thing by the locals
Little Rock City (US) - banned 'cos the landowner built a golf course around the blocks
Hundreds of areas in the States are closed just because they are on private land
....and these are just the examples I can think of off the the top of my head.
The impact of climbers on bouldering areas in the UK is an important issue, but I think most Brits behave well at the crag. Loss of vegetation and erosion are major problems for us. We don't have such a problem with litter, people shitting at the crags, chipping, use of resin, boulderers behaving badly at the crag, etc. because we have educated ourselves. I'm not saying that this stuff doesn't happen 'cos obviously it does. However, compared to areas abroad (particularly in Europe) British boulderers behave pretty well, and have some respect for the limited natural resources we have. Area closure is a very negative way of dealing with a problem - its just sweeping it under the carpet and ignoring it, the head in the sand approach. The BMC and local activists should think up a strategy to stop erosion getting worse rather than just banning areas.
I'll get off my high horse now, and go and pull on some rock instead.
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So Bigphil, you're saying that recolonisation by the more trample-resistant species would take several years, even with minimal disturbance and use of reinforcing geotextiles
Yes and No, I'm saying that I think it would take several years for proper recolonisation but I also said that the species that exist under popular boulders are the most trample resistant.
If so, it would seem that more intrusive methods might be necessary? Are there alternatives to stone paving/woodchips/gravel etc?
Those rubber tiles you get at playgrounds? :lol:
No seriously, there really isn't that much you can do. Bouldering causes disturbance to plants and soil, its inevitable, and that leads to erosion, which is worse when the ground is wet in winter. Bouldering mats help reduce the impact by spreading the load across a wider area and preventing direct damage to the topsoil and vegetation beneath but this will only help in areas not already damaged. Woodchips hide the damage but also prevent any new colonisation. Gravel has the same effect.
As much as I'd like to think there was an easy, sustainable solution to erosion in popular areas I don't think there is one.
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you wanna be listening to phil....hes an environmental consultant.
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Oh, and climbing bans at most other bouldering areas in the worlds have come about for a variety of reasons, but I can't think of an instance where an area has been closed due to loss of vegetation or erosion.
Hueco - banned because of the (perceived) threat posed by climbers to the rock art there
Cresciano - Access threatened by the quarry company who wanted to blow it up for roadstone
Meschia - Access severly restricted as the land the boulders are on is used by the locals to grow chestnuts (the major source of income for the locals), and the hundreds of climbers filling the places with shit, toilet paper, litter, etc. was not perceived as a good thing by the locals
Little Rock City (US) - banned 'cos the landowner built a golf course around the blocks
In fontainebleau there is an area closed due to erosion. dame jouanne. The (high) blocks where/are getting more and more unstable.
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you wanna be listening to phil....hes an environmental consultant.
So am I - doesn't mean I know anything about reinstating eroded ground though :wink:
Sounds like bigphil has the knowledge though.
Percy, do you think active management of the footpaths and building of terraces etc would be palatable for the landowners?
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Climbers walking around blocks will kill the vegetation. Even with pads, the falling climbers will compact the soil making it useless for vegetation growth.
However, you will not find the utopian grassy landings under any popular boulder problems - it is simply not a realistic thing to expect.
This is bollocks. You have to look at it on a case by case basis. Some problems never had grass under them and never will - others have quite good soil and are able to support grass despite trampling.
Take the plantation as an example. Not to be taken away is a popular problem, no doubt about it. And it has a tricky start that means people do fall off continually. Most of the landing still supports a decent turf. The current small bare patch only appeared 2 years ago - the ground got churned up during a very damp spell. Areas like this WILL support grass if we take just a tiny bit more care of them.
Deliverance used to be similar - as I mentioned above, the soil only got removed because some fool had a fire under the arete, killing the stabilising vegetation and allowing the pool round the back to drain under deliverance. The face of business is similar - serious loss of soil only occurs where drainage lines are present to actually carry soil away. Compaction by trampling exacerbates this as it causes rain to flow over the surface rather than soaking in. This is stuff that could be nipped in the bud.
The majority of problems though wouldn't need banning for a variety of reasons; either they will never support vegetation or they're not susceptible to soil erosion. I think we're talking one problem at a time here.
And don't panic about this giving fuel for a blanket ban - there is little ecological value in this its just about taking some responsibility and maintaining things for ourselves and future generations.
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i was under the impression that the ground at the start of NTBTA had worn away quite a lot over the last 10-15years. The third-hand anecdotal evidence I had heard was that in the 80s gary gibson used to be able to reach the start of the ramp proper (i.e. after the crux) from the floor.
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Some compacting maybe, but no 'wearing away'. That would seem to be incompatible with it staying grassed, no? I can't believe the ground was ever higher than the floor of the cave, which is only about 6" higher than the present ground level.
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NBTA wasn't that drastically different from what I can remember.
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i concure that it is conceivable that the person who told me the story may have exagerated slightly.
I've told you a million times i never exagerate.
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When NTBTA first came in to the world the dry stone was fully complete.So you could balance up on it to reach the first holds.
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dry stone? baking powder?
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I should have put wall in there.My excuse is that i'd come over strange.[someone asked me to do some work]
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i bet strange wasn't too happy about that.
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Funnily he was quite flattered.
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alan james makes the point on ukc that, e.g. the plantation, is busier in summer and more erosion at foot of problems may actually take place in winter when ground is wet and boggy.
seems like a valid point and i'm prepared to be shot down by scientists but my point (yes i, for once, have one) is that we're obviously prepared to support a ban in summer when we don't go to many of these places but would we do the same in winter when arguably deliverance, NTBTA etc are in 'good' nick?
i would. question?
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frankly i can live without the plantation for a year or so, winter or not. the business boulder is shit, i've done everything i wanna do on the pebble, green traverse gets boring for the 150th time, i'm not about to do the joker or careless torque and any excuse to not spend beautiful winters days stood in a scruffy hole trying brad pit is welcomed with open arms.
The other option i recon is for the BMC to employ a groundsman for highrisk crags. The way i see it fi they can keep the square at the oval in mint nick year in year out then they can handle the deliverance landing no problems :wink:
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Hasn't someone (with more knowledge about these things than me) made the point that the grass/turf won't grow very well in winter as it's cold and covered in frost?
Generally I don't see the problem with stopping climbing on a few boulders temporarily when there's so much else available in the nearby area.
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for fucks sake: the plantation was only an example - we're not just discussing this are we. nor who's done what, where.
Hasn't someone (with more knowledge about these things than me) made the point that the grass/turf won't grow very well in winter as it's cold and covered in frost?
probably. but then we still climb through winter and it gets chewed up more - this was the point.
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frankly i can live without the plantation for a year or so,
then don't go.
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Close em all for year.
Whickham thorns anyone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Wow, quite surprised (fool?) by some of the negative reactions on ukc, i think this is definately worth persuing, so here's a few thoughts.
One main point is that we're talking about a limited number of areas where we need to actively repair the ground, on top of helping prevent future damage (which we should be doing all the time anyway). No amount of responsible climbing is going to get the ground under deliverance back to how it once was.
I can't see a way of doing something substantial without a ban on any area to be repaired. the fences round parts of paths at stanage show this is at least an accepted method of restricting access - and i think we'd definately need a physical barrier, rather than just signs.
If the ground is compacted and dried already (ala deliverance), it's obviously not going to be as simple as laying turf on top. I'd guess the existing soil would need to be dug out and remixed with suitable fresh material to create a medium plants could reestablish in. Then transplant onto this, be it turf of some kind or individual plants, i don't know.
May as well stick specifically with deliverance as it's the best (worst) and most quoted example - checked out the very obvious drainage channel adam was talking about today. Maybe it's possible to create a natural gradient away from deliverance face (ie so drainage goes towards popular end). Or perhaps something more complex. I'll check this at work but i think part of slope stabilisation generally involves digging the slope out to create a level step, then putting a layer of gravel/cobbles on the base before building back up to the level your building sits on (or in this case boulderers fall on). This provides water moving through the ground with an easy way through without affecting the stability of the material above (tho in this case we need to make sure there's enough moisture above for plants to grow of course). For buildings geogrid sheeting is used within the slope to help retain the area, tho not really sure of the specifics there. Obviously stabilising a small area in a moorland environment for plants to grow on is different to creating a house plot, but the techniques must be out there.
Assuming we figure out a viable technique which should work (and can be done by volunteers on a very low budget i guess), you'd like to think north lees/peak park/etc would be behind a group taking it upon themselves to address/fix/repair/prevent damage caused by their activities.
negatives... what if it all goes very wrong? ie we could end up with three feet of mud under deliverance... worth thinking about. But none of this bullshit thin end of the wedge argument about voluntary bans off cocktalk. If we can't try and improve our environment for fear of having to improve it some more then that's a pretty sorry state of affairs. Incidently we've seen loads of ring ouzels this year and if that's due to a few voluntary bans last spring then that's a good thing i rate!
fuck, it's taken me ages to type all that, bit of a ramble but there you go...
kim.
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I think its clear that any ban would be supported in the main, so they are a few issues to consider.
1. We need to get something clear, why its being done? as said above theres little ecological value in the ground beneath say deliverance, we would be doing it for our own benefit, i.e. to make boldering there more enjoyable.
2. Do we have a plan that has a high chance of repairing the ground? Of course you'd probably wat some kind of profesional consultancy on this, and if theres no solution then theres no point even starting a ban.
3. Thirdly, can whatever will be done be sustained in the long term? for example if any repair work would say take 6 months then not last 2 winters then its not worth it.
As kim says there may be all kinds of possible solutions revolving round diverting drainage etc. There would have to be some kind of study done into what going to provide the best most reliable and sustainable solution, and of course cost effective, as someone will have to pay for it. And we have to face the facts that it could turn out that theres is no cost effective solution adn we'll just have to live with it - its a possibilty.
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Fully support what's being proposed here, think in addition to Dave's points:
4. Where is it going to be done? The ground under Deliverance is the obvious example that's being used, but what about the end of the Brick at Burb South, Remergence wall, Trackside boulder...
Are we proposing a trial at one area be more widely applied if successful, and if is the ground at Stanage the proposed start point?
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frankly i can live without the plantation for a year or so, winter or not. the business boulder is shit, i've done everything i wanna do on the pebble, green traverse gets boring for the 150th time, i'm not about to do the joker or careless torque and any excuse to not spend beautiful winters days stood in a scruffy hole trying brad pit is welcomed with open arms.
You're confusing things a bit there Dave... I'm damn sure Brad pit never had any grass so would never get banned, ditto the Joker. Plus the landing for Careless remains in pretty good shape.
The ground under Deliverance is the obvious example that's being used, but what about the end of the Brick at Burb South, Remergence wall, Trackside boulder...
Don't reckon remergence is a candidate - gets too waterogged hence the main vegetation being rushes. If someone wants to dig it up and put a drain in you might be able to get grass to grow but I think this is way down the list. The burbage south boulders are a similar one - that's peat bog really and always has a bit of a wasteland look to it in places. Not totally sure on individual cases though - will take a walk around soon.
Yeah Deliverance is the obvious one. I was looking at it last night and its a right mess. Essentially you've got classic spring-head type erosion going on with a central drainage channel. Reckon at least a foot has been lost from under pebble arete and no signs of slowing. Will post some pics up at some point to remind peeps - it was worse than i remembered. Does anyone have a decent shot from the mid nineties for contrast??? On one summer its truly verdant green pasture.
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ditto - remegence ain't a high risk bit, just chuck a bag of gravel down every year or so.
can't think of any more ones as bad as deliverance.
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so thats it then. know one is allowed on deliverance if they re going to fall off.
I'm down with that, johnny?
I'm a facetious show off and will help no one.
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Responding to various comments....
Re-emergence has never had grass since I've been going there (1990'ish)... have a look at the picture of Joe Heeley in The Power Of Climbing to see what the Business Boulder used to look like & like JB say's, One Summer has Jason leaping madly and landing on lush grass and a beer mat.
IMHO, we shouldn't over-egg this the first time around. Perhaps just select either the business boulder or the pebble for a trial run??
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Just seen this on CT:
Peak Erosion - time for action
Well, not so much action, but a nice chat and a look at the problems and, maybe, decide whether we want to do anything about it.
So, plan is those who're interested meet up at Stanage Plantation on Wednesday 4th May. Anytime from 6pm onwards so people have time to chat/boulder/argue etc and then off to a suitable hostelry to decide on a course of action (or inaction).
Agenda is:
1. Ground Erosion
2. Hold Erosion
3. Drinking
See you there
JH
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Bumpety.
Forecast isn't too bad.
J