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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => power club => Topic started by: Teaboy on May 08, 2022, 04:45:13 pm
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Not done much trad climbing in last 5 years and finding it tough getting back into it. Hard not to make comparisons how I used to fare on trad routes.
I was having this exact same issue this week but at an even lower floor, at least you haven’t just moved to an area of predominantly trad climbing with a view to doing more trad! I’ve also started working a route (as a medium term project) I dropped the very last move of OS a few years ago.
Sorry, I have no sage words of advice, just empathising!
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Are you going to Pabbay aswell? You get a healthy margin on the grades there (for good reason) but I found Dies Irae harder than Sugar Cane Country on Pabbay and Darius certainly harder than anything on Voyage of faith on Mingulay.
Get fit on the rubicon trav etc. You’ll have a cracker if you arrive primed. I’d put that as a priority rather than getting your ‘trad head’ which is surely always lurking in you.
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I always think fitness is absolutely paramount for trad rather than headgame or similar. The best trad trips I've had are when I've done a load of sport climbing. It always takes me a few routes to get my eye in with gear anyway.
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Can’t comment on Pabbay, but I thought the grades on Mingulay were quite crag dependent. I think a lot of the stuff on Dun Mingulay gets repeats so the grades have settled, some of the other stuff less so. I found some stuff on Craig Dubh (I think, backside of the Dun Mingulay headland) quite tough and also a couple of things on Guarsay Mor similar. However, this was 20 years ago so the new guide might have sorted things out.
In terms of fitness over headgame, not sure I agree. You’re rarely going to find an E5 with climbing harder than F7b and you’re more likely looking at F6c+. In your case Jim (as an F8c sport climber), you’re overpowering the routes with fitness - margins upon margins. In Shark’s case, he could try and use F7c/8a fitness to overpower the routes or just get good at climbing F6b/+ above gear. I know which would come to me easier!
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In terms of fitness over headgame, not sure I agree. You’re rarely going to find an E5 with climbing harder than F7b and you’re more likely looking at F6c+. In your case Jim (as an F8c sport climber), you’re overpowering the routes with fitness - margins upon margins. In Shark’s case, he could try and use F7c/8a fitness to overpower the routes or just get good at climbing F6b/+ above gear. I know which would come to me easier!
The thing is, Shark is good at that and has decades of experience to burrow down into. Fitness allows you the time to be competent and competence breeds confidence. The key ingredients, in my opinion*.
*opinion is from a climber who has not trad climbed since Summer 2018 when head game collapsed. Said climber could just be bitter.
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Thanks but I’m not good at it at the moment but it is only day 3. Being fitter would stop me getting quite so pumped (which is also scary) so agree with that. Main thing is I want to get more confident and actually enjoy it. At the moment I scarcely recognise the type of climber I used to be despite being significantly stronger. Hopefully I can get some of that confidence and enjoyment back this time round. If not I’ll sack it off for good.
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The thing is, Shark is good at that and has decades of experience to burrow down into. Fitness allows you the time to be competent and competence breeds confidence. The key ingredients, in my opinion*.
I’m well aware of this! However, he hasn’t done much recently so it might be more accurate to say “Shark was good at that, but has decades of experience to burrow down into” and that has different implications (to me at least). The decades of experience means it will probably come back, but it’s not there right now - if I was in Shark’s position, I’d be doing exactly what he’s doing.
So if a F7c climber is getting pumped on F6c climbing, is it because they’re not fit enough or because they’re over gripping? If they then improve their fitness to F8a and scrape up the route because they can fight that pump, have they improved their competence as a trad climber or just sidestepped the issue?
I’m looking at this from very much of a personal perspective. I think I’d onsighted F7a and redpointed F7b when I first climbed E5. Over the years, my sport climbing improved but trad climbing stayed stuck at E5, so the fitness didn’t breed competence/confidence. I could do less trad climbing and still get up E5s, so you could argue that the fitness allowed room for incompetence and complacency. Either way, I was arguably a worse trad climber relative to my climbing ability.
Totally accept that there’s 2 ways of going about it, but (to me) one of them is efficient (if a little uncomfortable and an ego-kicking) and one isn’t.
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Main thing is I want to get more confident and actually enjoy it
Agree with Stabbsy, as I said on the other thread put the ego to one side temporarily, drop down the grades until you find where you are confident and enjoying it, then work back up. You'll go back up quicker than you think, and you can get your gear game back up to speed while not worrying too much above the moves. Going off and training fitness will just give you the means to fanny about (even) more.
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Some people are better than others at circumventing trad mileage, but it’s only possible IMO if you have a really good head. Sure on some trad routes sport fitness is helpful, but personally I think it’s overstated and not that relevant until E6 and above. Much more relevant is a bit of bouldering power and confidence to just go for it.
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I reckon Shark will read that and take from it that he needs to train bouldering power.
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I suppose I’m trying to say he’s got the power already, just needs mileage on trad. But then that sounds so ridiculously obvious I’m not sure why I’m even posting!
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I reckon Shark will read that and take from it that he needs to train bouldering power.
Ha! And then train power endurance.
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...and maybe a long term redpoint project to improve power endurance?
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Some people are better than others at circumventing trad mileage, but it’s only possible IMO if you have a really good head. Sure on some trad routes sport fitness is helpful, but personally I think it’s overstated and not that relevant until E6 and above. Much more relevant is a bit of bouldering power and confidence to just go for it.
Largely agree with that, although true bouldering power isn't often relevant until you get to E6 either, you can fanny up any number of E5s without proper sport fitness, and be very weak, if you have a dose of confidence and the ability to place good gear under pressure.
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I’ve listened to the above and have now decided you are all correct.
I stand down.
As punishment, I promise never to climb trad again. It’ll be tough but I know it’s the right thing to do.
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There are obviously multiple ways to skin the cat. I still think doing a shitload of circuits to absolutely minimise the stress felt when placing gear, allow recovery on good holds and move fast through easy climbing, all feed into the more cerebral aspects of trad climbing which I struggle with as much as anyone. When I'm not pumped, or even less pumped, I can place good gear, think clearly about the next sequence and make better decisions. Obviously you can do all these things whilst also being unfit, but I think that way it's more based on vibes which isnt as reliable.
I don't actually think Simon and I are that different here. I did loads of trad for years, then basically stopped for about 5 years. Last year I did the most I have for ages and loved it, but it was based on feeling fit (although nowhere near as fit as Stabbsy thinks I am, I fell off loads of E5s!)
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So if a F7c climber is getting pumped on F6c climbing, is it because they’re not fit enough or because they’re over gripping?
Or maybe it’s because they are gripped, fannying around and dithering in positions they could be comfortable climbing through, but struggle to commit.
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This is an interesting one…
As has been said above, there are multiple ways to skin a cat for sure! In my two best years of trad (ie the two I o/sed 2/3 E6s) were very opposite in terms of my preparation.
Year 1 I did loads of trad with a bit of sport. 3 months in oz where I mostly trad climbed but also did serpentine (blurry line between trad and sport) and some mid 7ish sport. That year I did roughly 20 E5s and 2 soft E6s.
Year 2 (last year) I had trained loads over winter and then did quite a lot of sport climbing. Mostly red pointing and often trying supercool. I managed to o/s 2 E6s and flashed another after abbing it to check kit/make sure it was clean. However I failed to o/s any E5s!!! I think I tried about the same amount of E5s as 6s and all bar one were hard E5 6bs. But still! Bit shambles!
I always think if you can warm up on 7as onsight in Spain that’s a nice starting point for E5s as it essentially means that with a more reasonable warm up you have the base levels of strength fitness to do an E5. Worth noting that trad requires more fitness than sport (obvs)
And Jim just cos you fell off E5s doesn’t mean you didn’t still have plenty in hand. But it’s also worth noting that E5s are fairly tricky even if you have onsighted 7c and red pointed 8c.
I often also feel like a bag of scared spanners on things a couple of grades below my perfect challenge zone. Which can be off putting to try harder. But I often feel better on tricker routes.
Shark. I don’t know if you have some grade you are hoping to feel comfortable on, but I’d maybe say it might be worth just making sure you are happy on E1-3 ground.
Worth noting that if late you have had a very poor diet in terms of variety of new moves, which is exactly what trad is.
You have been fine tuning a small selection of moves and focusing on minutae, not learning to fudge your way through sequences. A bit of horseshoe quarry main wall action can be good to just get exercising the brain and body in new moves and then graduate to some trad? Build the trad up steadily too.
I know you said you would like to o/s E6 having never previously managed that, but for now I would say set your mind to slightly more moderate aims. Not saying it won’t ever happen but often I find lofty goals make me feel worse about my climbing if I think of how I feel on easier routes to be markers of ability for them. Last year would be a good example of why that’s not a good idea!
Don’t know if any of that is helpful.
Ahhh trad it’s soul food for sure.
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Agree with all that, especially the bit about E5s being hard still! 6c/+ on bolts can still be fucking hard and awkward, let alone trying to fiddle gear in.
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Thanks but I’m not good at it at the moment but it is only day 3. Being fitter would stop me getting quite so pumped (which is also scary) so agree with that. Main thing is I want to get more confident and actually enjoy it. At the moment I scarcely recognise the type of climber I used to be despite being significantly stronger. Hopefully I can get some of that confidence and enjoyment back this time round. If not I’ll sack it off for good.
Wondered what this was about then I read your comment on powerclub, explains it all really:
T. ...we went to Stoney. Went on Dies Irae E2 which I remember waltzing up BITD but that was then. .... Traumatic.
F. High Tor..... I went on Darius... Took a long time but managed to it clean with manageable levels of trauma. Almost enjoyed it.
Getting back into trad on Stoney and High Tor - polished peak lime trad crags notorious for feeling hard for the grade and which are now even more polished then they were when they used to be considered hard, feel difficult to a man who hasn't trad climbed for a few years. Whatever next...!
Does this really need a self-examination of trad abilities? No. That stuff's just hard if you aren't climbing it regularly. Go to Wales and cruise up easy E2s for a few days, your 'problem' will be solved. High Tor (or the Lakes) will always be there to bring you back to earth, hopefully only figuratively, and remind you how desperate whatever trad grade you pissed up last week can actually feel.
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Shark. I don’t know if you have some grade you are hoping to feel comfortable on, but I’d maybe say it might be worth just making sure you are happy on E1-3 ground.
Just want to be able to enjoy the Mingulay trip which means not being unreasonably scared all the time and fit enough to lead a decent volume of routes at E2/3. Like Pete said trad at Stoney and High Tor are hard so hopefully it’s good prep and Mingulay will be straightforward by comparison.
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That’s definitely achievable!!
Tbh if you can I’d try and get over to some sea cliffs in wales. The grading will be closer plus the atmosphere will be more akin to what you will get on mingulay. Supplemented by some peak like trad to make you appreciate how soft every where else is!
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My experience of climbing on gneiss (mostly Sheigra to be fair) is it is generally fairly steep with a lot of gear placements, and if you are less than confident you can easily lace the routes hanging off small holds, and get pumped out your mind in the process.
When I have been climbing well there, the best approach for me is to stick in a couple of good bits when you are at a "reasonable" rest, and be prepared to run it out to the next rest and recover there, knowing good gear will always (usually) be there. Not only is it an efficient way to climb, but also an enjoyable one, and more akin to a lot of Pembroke than Peak Lime where the rock is more compact and gear placements are limited. Takes a while to get the confidence to climb past bomber placements though.
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I don’t think any sport climber will have problems with easily trainable physicalities of the trad routes they aspire to. What might be missing is the ability to hold uncomfortable positions for long periods and the calf and toe endurance. For the former yoga might help but for the latter I guess only mileage will do.
Regarding the mental aspects, when you’re scared the physical difficulty almost doesn’t matter. The other day I was petrified looking at two well placed wires, it didn’t matter that the next move was 5a or 6a when you’ve convinced yourself holds are going to break and wires will lift out.
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For Mingulay in the E2/E3 range you will be:
- unlikely to find many "hard" sequences
- need a confident head questing around following what seem quite vague route descriptions
- ability to make the most of the available gear (unlike sheigra a lot of the placements are more spaced and sometimes funky)
- abiltity to just keep trucking and be confident you'll get to better holds
You will rarely find long, sustained sections of tricky climbing. It's not nearly as calf pump inducing as granite.
I'd say go and do dream of white horses and work up to doing things like Godzilla at Rhoscolyn, with everything in between.
DO NOT GO BOULDERING
DO NOT DO SHORT PE
DO NOT CLIMB LIME
maybe a trip to the lakes would work. Also, abseil off the top of goredale or soemhwere scary, oherwise you'll fill your pants going off Dun Mingulay.
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Probably worth quoting this for everyone contributing multi-stage training plans:
Committed to go on a trip to Mingulay at the start of June
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Never underestimate the power of a chalked up route, a bit of beta, or a recommendation.
If I was you I'd be tapping into the hive mind here for recommended routes across a spread of grades.
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Probably worth quoting this for everyone contributing multi-stage training plans:
Committed to go on a trip to Mingulay at the start of June
From what little I know of you Simon, I think the most enjoyment will come from this trip by doing some long trad pitches, working back up through the grades to get your eye in and figure out where you're at, and going out there with a goal of enjoying fantastic routes in spectacular positions regardless of the grade. If you pin your hopes on an unrealistic grade then you're going to end up feeling dejected or enduring faff/retreats.
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Sula on Dun Mingulay at E2 is a very obvious one to do. The classic intro to that wall. I've only done one of the E3s there (Sirens, which has inexplicably gone up to E4 in the SMC guide) and that was great too.
I'd second what Fultonius says. In my experience (3 trips to Pabbay and Mingulay) with a bit of trad mileage under your belt before you go you'll find the climbing steady. It's generally steep and positive.
The main challenge for someone with less recent experience is likely to be the amazing exposure and logistical faff of finding routes, rigging abseil, being comfortable in committing situations etc. Basically the proper sea-cliff adventurous experience. If you're comfortable in the environment I reckon someone with Shark's pedigree will find the climbing fine.
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From what little I know of you Simon, I think the most enjoyment will come from this trip by doing some long trad pitches, working back up through the grades to get your eye in and figure out where you're at, and going out there with a goal of enjoying fantastic routes in spectacular positions regardless of the grade. If you pin your hopes on an unrealistic grade then you're going to end up feeling dejected or enduring faff/retreats.
I’m not remotely aiming for a grade on this trip or even working up the grades but I am aiming to readjust my head so I have reasonable faith in my gear so the experience is more enjoyable. Felt I was getting there at some points on Darius.
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Sula on Dun Mingulay at E2 is a very obvious one to do. The classic intro to that wall.
That’s the only route Ive heard of there. Twid recommended it to me last week on FB. He did the FA ground up and was expecting it to be E5/6 !
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DO NOT GO BOULDERING
DO NOT DO SHORT PE
DO NOT CLIMB LIME
:lol: :lol: :lol:
As people have said above, the poor cat is getting skinned left right and centre. OTOH it should come as no surprise that having a massive buffer of sport fitness (especially onsighting) / bouldering strength makes trad feel much easier as long as you've remember how to fiddle in nuts and overcam camalots, and anyone who says otherwise either has that massive buffer (whether they've chosen to apply it or not), or has forgotten how to fiddle in nuts. Having zero fear whatsoever is also a valid option.
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Sula on Dun Mingulay at E2 is a very obvious one to do. The classic intro to that wall.
That’s the only route Ive heard of there. Twid recommended it to me last week on FB. He did the FA ground up and was expecting it to be E5/6 !
I can believe it. It's pretty intimidating to look at but turns out to be covered in buckets!
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The main challenge for someone with less recent experience is likely to be the amazing exposure and logistical faff of finding routes, rigging abseil, being comfortable in committing situations etc.
This. Despite having 'some experience' I found a couple of the abs on Pabbay almost paralysingly exposed. Vertical or free hanging for 100 full metres above the grey Atlantic, and you struggle to see if the rope even reaches because the end is so far away = the most scared I've been in years. The climbing was mostly fine and is often easier than it looks due to all the mini jugs. Prophecy of Drowning for example would probably E1 if you didn't have to do the ab.
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Big Grades for Bad Abseils?
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Big Grades for Bad Abseils?
A3 or A4?
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I'm going to Pabbay and Mingulay in a few weeks too, I'm hoping to find it a bit less gripping than on my last visits 12-13 years ago.
Worth reading Kev Howett's account in the Great Sea Cliffs book of abseiling into Creag na Beiste on Berneray, where a 200m rope didn't reach the bottom and he had no prussiks... :sick:
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The main challenge for someone with less recent experience is likely to be the amazing exposure and logistical faff of finding routes, rigging abseil, being comfortable in committing situations etc.
This. Despite having 'some experience' I found a couple of the abs on Pabbay almost paralysingly exposed. Vertical or free hanging for 100 full metres above the grey Atlantic, and you struggle to see if the rope even reaches because the end is so far away = the most scared I've been in years. The climbing was mostly fine and is often easier than it looks due to all the mini jugs. Prophecy of Drowning for example would probably E1 if you didn't have to do the ab.
Just wanted to “like” everything you wrote.
but while I’m here…
We had fun with that 100m free abseil into the Grey Wall Recess. It was a blustery day but we were keen to climb so we tried to throw the ab rope over the edge into the void but instead the wind whipped the rope over our heads and back towards the campsite. After multiple failures we gave up!
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Grey Wall Recess was in my mind when reading JB's post. Won't forget that one in a hurry.
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Pretty spicy that one innit. When I first went to P&M we didn’t have any ropes longer than about 80m.
On day 1 we had to pass a knot freehanging halfway down the prophecy of drowning abseil
when we did spit in paradise at grey wall recess I had to abseil to the bottom of our longest rope, take the half rope off my back and attach it to the bottom. The wind picked up and I remember spinning around quite quickly. Pulling the rope once we were all down felt super committing!
I was hoping that being a rope tech might help on my return in a few weeks but judging by JB’s anecdotes it might not… maybe I’ll bring my ASAP ;D
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Yeah, the single 9mm static didn't help! Double 11s might have been different, as might not being a manager desk jockey nowadays.
we tried to throw the ab rope over the edge into the void but instead the wind whipped the rope over our heads and back towards the campsite. After multiple failures we gave up!
The cavers/ rope access trick is to tie a big knot in the end, then feed it and the rest of the rope into an empty bag, then hang the bag off your belay loop. You kneed to be confident it is long enough though!
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Then it's decided. If I ever go to Pabbay I'm taking a 1000m ab rope.
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Just imagining those spindly little legs carrying such a rope. :lol:
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Just imagining those spindly little legs carrying such a rope. :lol:
Will Hunt's Pabbay Diaries, Day 2
Porters made it to Advanced Base Camp with the ab rope today. Slow going but proud of team. Think I can see good spot for camp 1, bit far at ~250m away but if we can push there tomorrow we'll be in good shape to get to kit to top of grey walls recess by day 8. Hoping the good weather window continues but got forecast on sat phone and monsoon season is fast approaching so window may close before we have chance to ab in, would be great shame. Crushing for team.
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.....and ready with pencil to downgrade any routes I actually do.
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I'd gladly join the exped as a porter for the Great siR Will of Hunt's palanquin.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/The_Date_Clan%E2%80%99s_Palanquin_with_Arabesque_Design_in_Maki-e_Lacquer.jpg)
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I have nothing useful to add to this topic, and so far my preparations for getting back into trad have been limited to lubricating some old cams. I am, however, following the topic with interest and my hope is that by staying just within my normal lactate threshold or thereabouts I will have enough time to fiddle in gear. I will report back.
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Since the 21st we have had a continuous gale from W.S.W. and S.W. We had fuel to make two cups of Lattice Protein Chai apiece and bare food for two days on the 20th. Every day we have been ready to start for our depot 11 metres away, but outside the door of the tent it remains a scene of anti-connies. I do not think we can hope for any better things now. We shall stick it out to the end, but we are getting weaker, of course, and the end cannot be far.
It seems a pity, but I do not think I shall see another max hangs session.
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“ Also, abseil off the top of Gordale or soemhwere scary, oherwise you'll fill your pants going off Dun Mingulay.”
If you can’t abseil in you’ll be very limited so this is a priority. Maybe we should be discussing rigging, multiple rope protectors, prussik, jumars. 100m static rope shared between two parties and expect it to be trashed be the end of a week at Mingulay.
I once abseiled into Dun Mingulay to climb Big Kenneth and ended up half way down before realising that a big swell was running and the ab rope was in the sea. I wasn’t keen on jumaring back up so continued to just above the sea the started counting the waves. At an appropriate moment I abbed into shallow water and rushed (no 4 cam in hand) to a good ledge and rammed the cam into a crack!
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I once abseiled into Dun Mingulay to climb Big Kenneth and ended up half way down before realising that a big swell was running and the ab rope was in the sea. I wasn’t keen on jumaring back up so continued to just above the sea the started counting the waves. At an appropriate moment I abbed into shallow water and rushed (no 4 cam in hand) to a good ledge and rammed the cam into a crack!
Similar story here. When you first look down it's hard to gauge the size of the swell because you're so far away! We abbed in to find a much-bigger-than-it-looked swell and ended up huddled in to a little nook trying (unsuccessfully) not to get rinsed while our mate ran up the first pitch of Sula.
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Slight side note but in these situations abbing into a route with potential rope knackering/snagging forces underneath (whether this be wind, sea or thorny bushes) I've found it very helpful to stack the rope into a small haulbag and hang it from my belay loop. This allows for trouble free abbing without any rope-detangling or unwanted sea-dips. When you reach the stance you can simply clove hitch the end off and clip it into the belay with a short loop underneath to facilitate the next abseiler. This can also be done with one of those super compressable 30l nylon bags which pack down to the size of a pair of socks and weigh similar which means it's a good backup for on alpine stuff where you're not sure if you'll need it. This trick was an absolute godsend when abseiling down the Gorropu gorge in Sardinia with very high winds.
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I have been thinking about this a bit again, after having recently climbed a route on gear again. I must say that the whole premise is a bit of a mystery to me. I mean, it is just climbing after all? The difficult part of climbing is climbing, right? Not putting in bits? I realise that it is trickier to put in wires then cams, but most people climb mostly with a rack that is heavy on cams and light on wires nowadays anyway?
Anyway. A mystery. I don't think I am particularly brave or clever with gear either.
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Top post :2thumbsup:
"Gear is good if you're strong enough to hang around and place it..." etc etc :sick:
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I’d say in the UK we still climb on wire heavy racks. I very rarely carry a double rack of cams but regularly carry a triple set of wires (Pembroke especially).
The difficulty of trad climbing is the unknown and navigating your way through this unknown as safely as possible?
The climbing is one part of that
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The difficult part of climbing is climbing, right? Not putting in bits? I realise that it is trickier to put in wires then cams,
You wouldn’t say that if you’d ever over-retracted and jammed a cam badly into the only viable placement in a state of sweaty-pawed anxiety.
Wires have an elegant simplicity, though you can mess them up too.
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I mean, it is just climbing after all? The difficult part of climbing is climbing, right?
Not sure if I've mis-understood you but simply no.
The climbing can be the really easy bit. If your heads gone to bits and your pumping out trying to fiddle in a wire with your leg shaking like elvis, even though your on good holds, then no, the climbings the easy bit.
The whole point of trad, and to me all of climbing, harks back to the simple notation that you arrive at the bottom of a cliff, with only your wits and a bit of gear and successfully and as safely possibly climb it to the top of the route, in the purest style possible. On site soloing is at the top of this pyramid, everything else comes below that in some sort of heirachy.
Why is an onsite so coverted, even in sport climbing. Why do we even bother with 'leading' sports routes. Why doesn't a top rope of a hard sport route 'count'.
I'm not saying I dont enjoy sport climbing, or bouldering or whatever, but at the heart of it all is that very basic notion of on site, bottom to top.
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It's always interesting to learn what people get from climbing and how it can differ quite a lot! Which is a good thing imo, but still
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The difficult part of climbing is climbing, right? Not putting in bits? I realise that it is trickier to put in wires then cams, but most people climb mostly with a rack that is heavy on cams and light on wires nowadays anyway?
Said like a person who’s never fallen much onto trad gear? And/or had gear rip on them?
Many people struggle with the idea of really going for it above their gear, partly due to the natural fear of falling, but also because the feeling of apprehension is enhanced in trad climbing because gear does rip and rock does fail - the premise of trad protection relies on fractured rock after all… Sometimes it’s unpredictable what will happen in a trad fall where the gear stopping you from hitting something maybe isn't in a completely solid area of rock confirmed (probably..) as bomber by the route equipper with their hammer.
Also routes tend to be less steep than sport routes so more to hit.
The whole game when played well is a feeling of constantly updating risk-management as much as movement.
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I like trad climbing, specifically on sight/ ground up trad climbing because all the many factors that make climbing really hard are left in. With sport, bouldering and headpointing you’ve taken some combination of those things (Duncan summarises them well was “the unknown” I guess) out, either for convenience or so you can concentrate on just the physical difficulty. That just leaves me cold at this point in my life.
It’s really satisfying to gradually become a better trad climber and it always feels like the type of climbing where you’re most connected to your partners. When I thought I’d fucked it and my life as a climber was over it was the memories of doing routes with people, of climbing significant physical features and of doing things first go that I looked back on and that meant mainly trad. Seigeing, and personal grade milestones weren’t there at all and that’s really stuck with me.
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The difficult part of climbing is climbing, right? Not putting in bits? I realise that it is trickier to put in wires then cams, but most people climb mostly with a rack that is heavy on cams and light on wires nowadays anyway?
Said like a person who’s never fallen much onto trad gear? And/or had gear rip on them?
I must have taken more than a hundred falls on trad gear, but it was admittedly a long time ago. I have ripped very few pieces and only one that I was absolutely sure it was going to hold, leading to a long fall (I was extremely lucky that a questionable piece just below held).
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Maybe just accept that we are all different and some people's head game is not as strong as yours?
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I suspect that being a massive stamina wad like jwi also helps, as does climbing a full number grade below your redpoint limit.
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Maybe just accept that we are all different and some people's head game is not as strong as yours?
Maybe. I do feel pretty scared a lot of the time, and absolutely terrified sometimes -- even when sport climbing -- so I have always assumed that my head is average.
I might just be unjustifiably confident in my mechanical engineering skills/ intuition 🤷🏼♂️
I suspect that climbing a lot of onsight on sport helps. I have noticed before that people who do a lot of onsight sport climbing learn trad faster than those who mostly redpoint.
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I suspect that being a massive stamina wad like jwi also helps, as does climbing a full number grade below your redpoint limit.
:agree: and anyone who ignores that / takes it for granted needs a :chair:
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I might just be unjustifiably confident in my mechanical engineering skills/ intuition 🤷🏼♂️
I think this is the root of it. Your posts are always extremely logical and spell out exactly how 1+1=2, but most people aren't built that way and to a greater or lesser extent, aren't able to separate what they know to be likely true (the gear will almost certainly hold) from their feared outcome (it won't). Thinking like an engineer is probably very useful in lots of situations but I suspect not in terms of empathising with others experience of something you perhaps see as quite logical and self explanatory.
I suspect that being a massive stamina wad like jwi also helps, as does climbing a full number grade below your redpoint limit.
This would also help!
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Like a F8c stamina wad??
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what they know to be likely true (the gear will almost certainly hold) from their feared outcome (it won't).
Also, when there's a good chance that you'll be testing the gear, and the consequences of the "feared outcome" is life-changing injury/death, then it's perfectly understandable to set quite a high bar for how confident we need to be in the gear before going for it.
I get the impression that jwi often has a lot of space below his feet when trad climbing; on gritstone there's often very little redundancy with everything coming down to one or two pieces of protection.