UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => get involved: access, environment, BMC => Topic started by: shark on February 16, 2021, 11:25:14 am
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https://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=4251
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Thanks for posting up Simon.
Just a prompt that it's a week on Thursday. Plenty of local news to catch up on: access and hill-walking, plus a proposal to retrobolt some neglected trad routes.
And as a bit of light relief after all that, we've got some evening entertainment to finish off with:
Para-alpinism: the lazy way down!
Not dissimilar from the three Musketeers, where swashbuckling, heroic, chivalrous swordsmen fought for justice (description from Wikipedia), Calum Muskett is a swashbuckling, heroic, chivalrous climber, renowned for his cheese-puns (not what it says on Wikipedia).
Calum is going to speak about para-alpinism: climbing up big alpine faces and flying back down. Expect some aspirational bits of alpine rock and some amusing stories of returning to the ground. It’ll be brie-lliant.
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Any chance of a five-minute cap on any ORG stuff, Andy? PLEASE.
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:agree:
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Out of interest, where is the retrobolting discussion about?
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Any chance of a five-minute cap on any ORG stuff, Andy? PLEASE.
Basically, yes!
The recent open meetings on all political / process / organisational change stuff means we can have a lot less of it in the Areas meetings. We have still been asked to ratify some changes with the members but there will be far less emphasis on this. Let's say ten minutes max
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Out of interest, where is the retrobolting discussion about?
I'm really keen for a discussion on this issue as it's a good proposal, but I'm a lot less keen to have it on a public forum (no reflection on the posters of UKB obvs) so I won't say any further details here
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Let's say ten minutes max
Seven.
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Is the discussion seeking to obtain approval for future retrobolting, or seeking to obtain retrospective approval for retrobolting already undertaken? Asking for a friend...
I'm really keen for a discussion on this issue as it's a good proposal, but I'm a lot less keen to have it on a public forum...
Oops :-[ Better not answer that then :lol:
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Does a BMC meet not class as a public forum? And online no less?
Strikes me there's a lot more chance of useful discussion on here. On past record, doing it at a BMC meet goes like this:
Jimmy Hat proposes retrobolting Lettuce buttress. He presents his argument - nobody goes there, the routes are badly protected and reliant on fixed gear that is past its best. There could be up to ten good sport routes that the over-fifty Tuesday night crew could have as their new favourite crag for at least a month.
Mike Ant asks if they have asked the permission of the FA. He couldn't be contacted direct but a second hand source says he doesn't climb any more and couldn't care less.
Jimboy asks for a show of hands who has ever climbed at the crag. Only Jimmy Hat raises his hand. Everybody else looks at their toes.
The 'debate' rumbles on for twenty minutes until the chair proposes a vote. Five for, twenty against, twenty abstain.
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Brilliant.
My guess is someone who likes getting selfie requests has already fired some in.
Which may or may not be good for climbing in the dale.
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Ah, my attempts at being intentionally cryptic so as to avoid a permanent and easily accessible record doesn't seem to be working. I know I might have not helped with this (unintentionally so), but can we just press pause on the speculation?
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I know this is a bit counter-intuitive, but in the case of neglected lime etc routes, does Jimmy Hat ever propose giving the buttresses a thorough scrub, get rid of all plant life, remove any loose rock, replace any crucial fixed gear, add lower-offs if the tops are unfeasible, reassess the grades, and do a nice little photoshoot to sell the revamped trad routes (possibly still cheaper than actual full bolting), etc etc, before suggesting retro-bolting??
(I'm theoretically speculating on this from the entirely unbiased perspective of someone who had the Umpire / Police And Thieves buttress on his radar semi-recently (less so when I lived in Glasgow tho) and enjoyed a day out at Drabber Tor last summer, but no doubt there's something I've missed in the concept....)
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Who might have thought that a chair being "intentionally cryptic" and stating that a motion would be positive while not actually providing any information regarding that motion would lead to trouble?!
Has Central Office been giving lessons??
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I know this is a bit counter-intuitive, but in the case of neglected lime etc routes, does Jimmy Hat ever propose giving the buttresses a thorough scrub, get rid of all plant life, remove any loose rock, replace any crucial fixed gear, add lower-offs if the tops are unfeasible, reassess the grades, and do a nice little photoshoot to sell the revamped trad routes (possibly still cheaper than actual full bolting), etc etc, before suggesting retro-bolting??
This. Not sure of the exact order of events, but I think this was what happened at Blue Scar (Left Wing and Central Wall) c. 20 years ago. Lower-offs added, bit of a scrub, didn’t even need a photoshoot, word of mouth was enough and the place was popular - not sport crag popular, but popular for a trad crag with nothing much easier than E3. Most of the routes got multiple ascents apart from maybe some of the E7s.
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Stabbsy and Fiend - good generic discussion, like it :)
Who might have thought that a chair being "intentionally cryptic" and stating that a motion would be positive while not actually providing any information regarding that motion would lead to trouble?!
Has Central Office been giving lessons??
Tony, I was quite minded to ignore this comment but actually I think it's below the belt so I'm going to address it. I may not have handled this perfectly, but I did what I thought best. Maybe I could have done it differently. Either way, I'm a volunteer and I don't like being publically sniped at. Because I am a volunteer doesn't mean I am above criticism - in fact I would welcome your feedback. But if you'd like to suggest how I could improve I'm sure you can find a way which isn't so snide.
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Be open and honest.
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I know this is a bit counter-intuitive, but in the case of neglected lime etc routes, does Jimmy Hat ever propose giving the buttresses a thorough scrub, get rid of all plant life, remove any loose rock, replace any crucial fixed gear, add lower-offs if the tops are unfeasible, reassess the grades, and do a nice little photoshoot to sell the revamped trad routes (possibly still cheaper than actual full bolting), etc etc, before suggesting retro-bolting??
(I'm theoretically speculating on this from the entirely unbiased perspective of someone who had the Umpire / Police And Thieves buttress on his radar semi-recently (less so when I lived in Glasgow tho) and enjoyed a day out at Drabber Tor last summer, but no doubt there's something I've missed in the concept....)
Quality post.
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This is what I omitted to detail in the twenty minute rumble.
Yes, that always gets suggested. In fact, it would typically be the proposed action and I've often added my support to it. But it never seems to happen.
The other bit I skipped over is where we all also agree (sometimes in long-winded print format) that any such retrobolting should be dealt with on a case by case basis and with the input of those who know the crag. These people are typically thin on the ground and when they do pop up often don't offer the opinion the sceptical majority were fishing for.
I would say that the main issue is that in the venn diagram of psyched obscure lime redevelopers the overlap with the rabid bolter new route machine seems to be more or less complete. That's the ethic though, isn't it - we expect a sport route to be a made thing ready for business while spending the previous weekend doing full on rope access with a drill on your route rather negates the point of trad.
I don't claim to have any answers, and when I have chopped bolts it feels like two wrongs rather than a restitution.
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I've edited a few posts, removing the location for access reasons. By all means PM me if you object or want to know where is being discussed.
I'll add some thoughts later regards the proposal, when I have a bit more time.
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PS I've never attended a virtual AM. But I'm minded to show up at this so I can heckle the chair with "You have no authority here Andy Reever!".
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PS I've never attended a virtual AM. But I'm minded to show up at this so I can heckle the chair with "You have no authority here Andy Reever!".
Will you also be an animated cat?
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An animated Carboniferous fossil would be more appropriate
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replace any crucial fixed gear, add lower-offs if the tops are unfeasible
Actually this is probably the crux of the matter. Some years ago, following similar debate I had a go at removing some knackered old fixed gear at Stoney in a route with more than adequate natural pro that had become festooned with tat. I gave up when I realised it wasn't going to come out without damaging the rock. Even chopping some shite threads earned me 'elitist' stick for leaving less for the aspiring mid-grader to go for, and one shit thread turned out to be on some shit squeezed in line to the right despite being within reach etc etc.
The idea that old gear will come out nicely and you can pop a nice stainless peg back in probably is a pipe dream most of the time. So 'replace' probably means retrobolt, and the bolt can't be in the same place. And then if you're putting lower-offs in... this needs an experienced bolter who is far more likely to be of the view it might just be better retroed completely, and isn't likely to want to do half a job.
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:agree:
I've tried and failed to do like for like peg replacements on several occasions. The cost and difficulty of sourcing a comprehensive rack of pegs is also fairly prohibitive.
A stronger, more coherent mandate for targeted bolt in place of peg replacement would do a lot to help this approach I think. If more traditionally anti-bolters supported the approach (including doing the work!)I think it would perhaps make it seem less like a route automatically belonged to sport climbers as soon as one of them placed a foot in the door bolt.
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Peak lime eh. I don’t really understand what you’re saying, but Castellan would be better with all the ironmongery stripped out imo and bumped to E6 as the best of its genre in the Peak. It can be protected by trad gear. But I can see where things are going with the close proximity of bolts nearby.
I’m amazed that Eyes of Fire has resisted the retroers. Maybe those who cleaned up and repeated General Dismissal last summer will be keen.
Or do what they’ve done at Kilnsey and turn it into a sport crag where everyone looks sad.
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replace any crucial fixed gear, add lower-offs if the tops are unfeasible
Actually this is probably the crux of the matter. Some years ago, following similar debate I had a go at removing some knackered old fixed gear at Stoney in a route with more than adequate natural pro that had become festooned with tat. I gave up when I realised it wasn't going to come out without damaging the rock. Even chopping some shite threads earned me 'elitist' stick for leaving less for the aspiring mid-grader to go for, and one shit thread turned out to be on some shit squeezed in line to the right despite being within reach etc etc.
The idea that old gear will come out nicely and you can pop a nice stainless peg back in probably is a pipe dream most of the time. So 'replace' probably means retrobolt, and the bolt can't be in the same place. And then if you're putting lower-offs in... this needs an experienced bolter who is far more likely to be of the view it might just be better retroed completely, and isn't likely to want to do half a job.
After attending the North Wales fixed gear debate last night I have become acutely aware of how complicated this whole matter is! I got the general feel that lots of people think it’s ok to put staples in at good trad crags(not shit peak crags). Ultimately nobody has a mandate to stop anything, so people can basically do whatever they like. Sad times indeed. Sorry off topic (at least from peak point of view) It surprises me that the peak area might have a have a more pragmatic approach/view but that seems to be the case. Good luck
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If more traditionally anti-bolters supported the approach (including doing the work!)
I keep saying this but again I think this may be the crux of the problem. I fundamentally don't believe in drilling holes in crags. It's not what the sport is about, for me, which is playing the ball as it lies, as it were - accepting the challenge as it exists. I accept sport climbs exist and have done a fair few. But I'm not about to go placing bolts next to old pegs, even if I can be argued into a corner where I sort-of accept it is the best compromise. I think this is probably the majority position, albeit a poorly articulated harrumph heavily skewed by the grade demographics (although I'm in perhaps unusual position where I also have some expertise in bolt placement).
Whereas Barry the Drill he don't give a fuck, and there are plenty who'll jump straight on for the tick. And like Yob says there is a growing number who just see bolts anywhere as a normal thing.
There are a lot of parallels with nature conservation. You're never going to run out of developers who pop up seeing an opportunity for a quick buck building houses on your botanically-rich meadow. You fight, you win, they move on and look somewhere else. But then another pops up. There's never any 'win' just a constant battle to resist 'progress'.
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Peak lime eh. I don’t really understand what you’re saying, but Castellan would be better with all the ironmongery stripped out imo and bumped to E6 as the best of its genre in the Peak. It can be protected by trad gear. But I can see where things are going with the close proximity of bolts nearby.
I agree. I did think the belay on the twin wedged blocks was deadly though. General advice to do the route as one big pitch is probablythe best solution.
This is the flipside of accepting targeted replacement of pegs. Other pegs should be removed in instances like this where the route is better without.
I’m amazed that Eyes of Fire has resisted the retroers.
I disagree. Most active bolters I've met have due respect for the trad status of strong classic lines with lots of natural placements. There are exceptions obviously, but they know there'd be a huge backlash to bolting something like EOTT.
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If more traditionally anti-bolters supported the approach (including doing the work!)
I keep saying this but again I think this may be the crux of the problem. I fundamentally don't believe in drilling holes in crags. It's not what the sport is about, for me, which is playing the ball as it lies, as it were - accepting the challenge as it exists. I accept sport climbs exist and have done a fair few. But I'm not about to go placing bolts next to old pegs, even if I can be argued into a corner where I sort-of accept it is the best compromise. I think this is probably the majority position, albeit a poorly articulated harrumph heavily skewed by the grade demographics (although I'm in perhaps unusual position where I also have some expertise in bolt placement).
Yes, fair point*. Perhaps assistance short of bolting then. There's usually some degree of old gear removal and loose block clearance needs doing.
My general point is that perhaps if there was a dominant consensus middle ground there would be less room for one extreme to make facts on the ground while the other makes hand gestures at meetings.
* I think you personally have a more than fair claim to be doing well beyond 'your bit' for peak climbing/access and can be excused from active duty on this one anyway.
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I did think the belay on the twin wedged blocks was deadly though. General advice to do the route as one big pitch is probablythe best solution.
Rope drag is inevitable on the first pitch unless you pulled the ropes up and even then you’d have a lot of rope stretch for the boulder problem second pitch which wouldn’t be nice
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A stronger, more coherent mandate for targeted bolt in place of peg replacement would do a lot to help this approach I think. If more traditionally anti-bolters supported the approach (including doing the work!)I think it would perhaps make it seem less like a route automatically belonged to sport climbers as soon as one of them placed a foot in the door bolt.
:agree: - I like this compromise. Whilst not quite as pure as like-for-like, and also leaving the door open for someone to say "well why not put 4 more bolts in and make it a sport route" , I still think it's a good way to respect the limited amounts of fixed gear on a route and still leave it feeling like a pretty trad experience. In fact in some cases you could cut down a lot of shoddy fixed gear with less bolts (Hell's Wall, I'm looking at you :worms: )
My mate Pylon Kunt did this on Uphill Racer at Uphill Quarry. As part of guide work he abseiled down to check the pegs and found the crucial ones were particularly dodgy (remove by hand style). He resisted calls to fully bolt it as a F6c and also leave it as a fairly terminal E6 6a, put in 3 bolts on the closest logical positions to the ex-pegs. I did it and it makes a fine stiff E3, whilst the crux is essentially a sport scenario, it has some run-outs lower down and some distinct E3 wire-fiddling after the crux. It just worked.
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I did think the belay on the twin wedged blocks was deadly though. General advice to do the route as one big pitch is probablythe best solution.
Rope drag is inevitable on the first pitch unless you pulled the ropes up and even then you’d have a lot of rope stretch for the boulder problem second pitch which wouldn’t be nice
Hmm interesting. I’m normally pretty paranoid but thought the blocks felt reasonably solid.
You could do it in one pitch I guess. Whether you’d get anyone to second is another matter.
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Peak lime eh. I don’t really understand what you’re saying, but Castellan would be better with all the ironmongery stripped out imo and bumped to E6 as the best of its genre in the Peak. It can be protected by trad gear. But I can see where things are going with the close proximity of bolts nearby.
I agree. I did think the belay on the twin wedged blocks was deadly though. General advice to do the route as one big pitch is probablythe best solution.
This is the flipside of accepting targeted replacement of pegs. Other pegs should be removed in instances like this where the route is better without.
I’m amazed that Eyes of Fire has resisted the retroers.
I disagree. Most active bolters I've met have due respect for the trad status of strong classic lines with lots of natural placements. There are exceptions obviously, but they know there'd be a huge backlash to bolting something like EOTT.
Eyes of Fire was retroed in the past then chopped. White Gold was E4 and is now a polished 7a. I’m not so sure there’d be a huge backlash, though I appreciate what went on at Kilnsey with Deja Vu. I have no beef with Verbal Abuse getting retroed but I’d be sad to see Ninth Life go the same way as the nearby E5s.
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[/quote]
Eyes of Fire was retroed in the past then chopped. White Gold was E4 and is now a polished 7a. I’m not so sure there’d be a huge backlash, though I appreciate what went on at Kilnsey with Deja Vu. I have no beef with Verbal Abuse getting retroed but I’d be sad to see Ninth Life go the same way as the nearby E5s.
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Genuine question here: why not retro ninth life? Have you done it or is it on a list of routes you would like to do?
Personally I think it would be better bolted. I climb at Two Tier a fair amount and don’t think it had been done for quite a while. I would guess that anyone keen for it would need to clean it and chalk it first etc. I like the look of the line and in all honesty I think it would be cool if it was bolted. I understand that others have different opinions here but am curious as to the reasoning. Just for a bit of background I have done a fair amount of trad in the past and I probably will again in the future. I think there are some really clear cases where bolting sucks but not sure ninth life is one of these
Cheers
Dave
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Ninth Life is not the best example because it does get done, not a lot but enough. Only last year I saw someone brushing it down, Pat Hill I think?
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Ninth Life is not the best example because it does get done, not a lot but enough. Only last year I saw someone brushing it down, Pat Hill I think?
Fair play. I didn’t see any chalk on it myself but stand corrected.
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Ninth Life is not the best example because it does get done, not a lot but enough. Only last year I saw someone brushing it down, Pat Hill I think?
Yeah, it was Pat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPWgH-HHcQE
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If you are going to do Ninth Life you may as well go and do Flight of Icarus as it’s close to Celebration and they share the same belay....I personally feel those routes should be left alone.
People will come along from time to who want to enjoy them in the original form and not just another polished 7b+/7c with someone permanently in situ for weeks on end...
Longer term we have people coming from the walls and quarries who want more challenges and reverse engineering old trad routes is something I hear mentioned quite frequently.
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I did think the belay on the twin wedged blocks was deadly though. General advice to do the route as one big pitch is probablythe best solution.
Rope drag is inevitable on the first pitch unless you pulled the ropes up and even then you’d have a lot of rope stretch for the boulder problem second pitch which wouldn’t be nice
Hmm interesting. I’m normally pretty paranoid but thought the blocks felt reasonably solid.
You could do it in one pitch I guess. Whether you’d get anyone to second is another matter.
They feel solid, but look structurally weak to me. Two big blocks wedged against each other in a shallow recess. If the first bit of gear failed on the crux of pitch two they'd be subject to a factor two fall. The consequence of them failing would likely be two dead climbers.
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There are exceptions obviously, but they know there'd be a huge backlash to bolting something like EOTT.
Interesting, there is a very new bolt placed, it would appear, to make it a bit easier to top rope EOTT.
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Ninth Life is not the best example because it does get done, not a lot but enough. Only last year I saw someone brushing it down, Pat Hill I think?
Yeah, it was Pat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPWgH-HHcQE
Almost made me psyched to do it. Almost but not quite though without few bolts!
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If you are going to do Ninth Life you may as well go and do Flight of Icarus as it’s close to Celebration and they share the same belay....I personally feel those routes should be left alone.
People will come along from time to who want to enjoy them in the original form and not just another polished 7b+/7c with someone permanently in situ for weeks on end...
Longer term we have people coming from the walls and quarries who want more challenges and reverse engineering old trad routes is something I hear mentioned quite frequently.
I struggle to see retaining routes like this as trad routes for the odd person who will come along and do them. I have quite a few times looked at Flight of Icarus and wished it was bolted, it would then get done and be clean and chalked. I am sure that some people will just rock up and onsight it but I would guess that most people would need to give these routes a clean first at least. If they were clean and getting done all the time I can see the point in not bolting them but as it is ...
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One last point: I think it is important that each route or crag is taken on a case by case basis and there is some nuance in each case. I am not all for either bolts or trad and in fact I like both. I like to hear other people’s opinions on this stuff
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PS I've never attended a virtual AM. But I'm minded to show up at this so I can heckle the chair with "You have no authority here Andy Reever!".
Will you also be an animated cat?
Goose creature or nothing.
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I struggle to see retaining routes like this as trad routes for the odd person who will come along and do them.
They might get climbed less often but they mean more to the ascensionists when they get done. I still have very fond memories of ninth life and that vid took me right back.
So you’re not necessarily increasing the sum of human happiness by bolting these routes.
Plus, some of them are part of our history. Ninth Life in particular has a back story that gets watered down if it’s bolted.
I’m not averse to retrobolting old trad routes, but I don’t find a lack of mileage a persuasive reason.
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On the same logic as some of that above
Perhaps we should just chip routes so the distribution of grades match that of routes climbed by the general climbing public. Presumably that would be the most utilitarian approach?
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On the same logic as some of that above
Perhaps we should just chip routes so the distribution of grades match that of routes climbed by the general climbing public. Presumably that would be the most utilitarian approach?
I don’t want to be rude but I come on here to try to avoid this level of UKC style argument.
Is it okay with you if we just accept that I hold both trad and sport climbing in high regard and think that both can happily co-exist? Also that there are some fairly nuance reasons why some routes make good trad routes and some are better as sport routes and that this is a difficult decision to make.
If you have some reasons like Stu in the earlier post that you are willing to discuss I am happy to chat
Cheers
Dave
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I struggle to see retaining routes like this as trad routes for the odd person who will come along and do them.
They might get climbed less often but they mean more to the ascensionists when they get done. I still have very fond memories of ninth life and that vid took me right back.
So you’re not necessarily increasing the sum of human happiness by bolting these routes.
Plus, some of them are part of our history. Ninth Life in particular has a back story that gets watered down if it’s bolted.
I’m not averse to retrobolting old trad routes, but I don’t find a lack of mileage a persuasive reason.
For Ninth Life I guess the whole history thing with Moffatt is the most compelling argument and I can accept that if we retro something like Ninth Life with that kind of history we might lose something.
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Davo, my point was that you are the one that is suggesting that these routes would be better changed with no reasons other than your opinion.
It is for you to justify the suggestion, preferably by researching these routes, their history, and investigate how often they really do (or don't) get done.
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Davo, my point was that you are the one that is suggesting that these routes would be better changed with no reasons other than your opinion.
It is for you to justify the suggestion, preferably by researching these routes, their history, and investigate how often they really do (or don't) get done.
Fair points. I guess opinions on routes are what builds consensus which is why I was putting my opinions (with some reasons if you bothered to read) on why I thought Ninth Life could be bolted. I am open to others ideas and genuinely am keen to hear them: so if you have any reasons (apart from the stuff you mentioned earlier) why it wouldn’t be a good candidate then I am all ears.
In all honesty I knew Ninth Life would provoke a response because of the history. Personally I would be happy if it was bolted as I think it looks like reasonable climbing but the rock quality looks dubious. I am not really convinced by the history argument as that can be used to keep almost any routes as trad but I accept it is a stronger argument for Ninth Life. Lastly Two Tier is essentially a sport crag and really is not a trad crag. To me the routes there make much better sport routes than trad routes.
This is all just my opinion obviously
Dave
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I am not really convinced by the routes-getting-done-more-often argument as that can be used to retrobolt almost any trad routes. Lastly Two Tier is essentially a sport crag but really there are many examples across the country where trad and sport can co-exist even where a crag is primarily one of those.
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Does Peak Lime really need another mediocre 7? At the cost of one of it's few storied and regularly climbed hard trad routes?
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That’s my feeling. The Ninth Life experience looks like it far outweighs the quality of climbing. I’m glad the mud is soft.
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I agree NL is better left as is. My alternative Cheedale retrobolt nomination would be Shazam on the Cornice. A good trad route in theory, but just not worth the epic reclean for a single ascent. Have never seen evidence of an ascent in many years visiting the Cornice. Would be popular and much enjoyed as a sport route I suspect.
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There's no good reason to bolt NL in my opinion. Cheedale isn't short of mid 7s like JB said, and popularity isn't everything.
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The obvious good taste displayed by Jon here leads me to think that he should be made King of these decisions and his word is final.
All those in favour...
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Davo you have not got a clue what you're are talking about. If you really have a desire to climb Ninth Life then go up Daylight Robbery 7B (aid it if you have to) and top rope it.
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....and thus leave it clean enough for someone to onsight it :yes:
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Davo you have not got a clue what you're are talking about. If you really have a desire to climb Ninth Life then go up Daylight Robbery 7B (aid it if you have to) and top rope it.
Cheers for your constructive comment there. It always amazes me how some people speak online in a way that they would be very unlikely to in person.
Anyway, despite the tone of your comment I will try and address a couple of points. Firstly if by “no clue” you mean I have a different opinion about whether or not routes such as Ninth Life really need to be preserved as trad routes than you then yes you are correct. If however you mean I don’t know where it is, don’t understand the history and don’t know which route I would need to climb to toprope it then you are sorely mistaken.
In fact I probably was going to top rope it at some point this year to see what the actual climbing is like. In general terms I don’t think that this is likely to change my opinion but I like to keep an open mind and you never know if it is good climbing I could be persuaded to lead it (unlikely I admit!).
Dave
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Don’t worry Dave he’s just covert spraying.
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Don’t worry Dave he’s just covert spraying.
Better that than having an opinion that it's best to retro a route which you haven't even climbed, to my mind at least.
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Ukb loves a pile on
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Goat boy calls it like he sees it.
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Just a reminder that the meeting is tonight via zoom at 7.30pm. Link below to register
https://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=4251
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Excellent meeting. Really enjoyed Callum's presentation and the cheesy diversions.
Just a reminder that Lynn and I produced a prize cryptic themed crossword for the Peak Area. Any Peak Area BMC members interested should email Lynn at:
lynn.robinson@bmcvolunteers.org.uk
When the competition closes we will make it public.