UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: Dave Flanagan on February 21, 2016, 07:37:23 pm
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Is there such a thing?
I know there are some novelty trick moves, like 3rd gen dynos and fig fours, but in general is it not the case that hard moves are the same as easy moves but just, well harder? Small holds, steeper, further apart, and thus requiring more power, precision, timing, accurate body position etc but fundamentally the movement is the same.
Or is it that there is just not link between the difficultly of the move and the standard of technique required for it?
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http://twitter.com/ClimbingRumours/status/685902028602798082
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For me a lot of being "advanced" comes down to tactics! Choosing the right problems to invest time in, resting adequately, conditions etc. All the knowledge that you gain over time should in theory lead to "better" performance. Does advanced just equal better prepared and able to deal with the often tiny nuances that make the difference between success and failure?
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+1
The only advanced technique I know is waiting for the sun to dip behind a cloud.
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For me, technique has increased with experience - and with grade and range of problems tried.
Its never ever been a case of 'you've got your technique - get stronger' - both have grown together... I'm always learning new tricks and body positions to avoid having to get stronger ;)
Oh yeah - nearly forgot. Advanced technique tip #3: Don't be short :p
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Things like compression / clamp moves, toe hooks and "bicycle" feet must surely be regarded as advanced?
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Handjams seem to stop some boulderers dead in their tracks.
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Use of ladders.
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avoiding injury
and when that fails, coping with injuries
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Eliciting sequence information from others (aka beta-vampire).
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Having multiple beta videos saved on your phone...
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In fact, having a slight hangover can be remarkably conducive to
sending climbing something sending.
(Edit: Christ Dense, you don't half make things awkward)
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Micro Beta
Multiple Shoes (not necessarily in pairs!)
Various techniques for generating momentum (see the Dobbin Ninja LegTM)
Advanced dieting (carrots only)
I'm not sure there's a book in this if that's what you're thinking!
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The ballerina heel.
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There might be a good book in advanced bouldering tactics though. Most of the above plus skin maintenance, video analysis, loads of stuff on conditions..
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I'm not sure there's a book in this if that's what you're thinking!
No, but quite a few articles online.
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i can only think of things that relate to chuffing too, like the one footed egyptian and the toehook variant of the same
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I'm not sure there's a book in this if that's what you're thinking!
No I don't think there is either.
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Would all the techniques mentioned not be considered intermediate rather than advanced?
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Depends how advanced you are?
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If there is nothing considered advanced then what are they intermediate to? :shrug:
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The French blow :jaw:
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The ballerina heel.
This is a really interesting comment. Regardless of the difference between the ballerina heel and the punter heel, I really think there is a lot of TUHU (Totally Unecessary Heel Usage) flying around. Like, you'll see someone put their heel on when you're thinking surely a toe would be better (most commonly seen on rock overs onto smears/lips where the foot is far away from you. Obviously if the hold is close by the heel can be advantageous by bringing your weight directly over the hold so you can "sit" on it, but for rockovers off to the side the toe normally provides greater accuracy, dexterity and leverage. See heel use on Blind Date, Beast of the Field etc). I mean, if it work's for you then fine, but for many people the heel is always the "go-to" default.
I've speculated that TUHU is mostly the product of heel use being associated with hard problems and hard climbing. People think "I'm on a hard problem here, I'd best use my heel as that's what you do on hard problems". Has anybody else observed this?
Back onto Advanced Techniques - I was about to suggest a Ninja Kick as something I'd only seen used on Cypher, but then I remembered having to do one on a 6C+!
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Yes, very commonly observed in London walls. <snobbery>Usually from people with a brand new pair of Solutions on, falling off a V1</snobbery>
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I've speculated that TUHU is mostly the product of heel use being associated with hard problems and hard climbing. People think "I'm on a hard problem here, I'd best use my heel as that's what you do on hard problems". Has anybody else observed this?
Yes, but also because heels are easier to whack in place, even though they might not be that useful. It's mostly beginners who do this?
Back onto Advanced Techniques - I was about to suggest a Ninja Kick as something I'd only seen used on Cypher, but then I remembered having to do one on a 6C+!
Always known this as the Moon Kick, for obvious reasons.
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Micro Beta
All about the infinitesimal readjustments and hold precision!
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I've speculated that TUHU is mostly the product of heel use being associated with hard problems and hard climbing. People think "I'm on a hard problem here, I'd best use my heel as that's what you do on hard problems". Has anybody else observed this?
Yes, only punters do it when unnecessary - I remember doing it myself when I first started using heelhooks. The better I've got, the less I use heelhooks to be fair, that's why I can get away with wearing slippers with a shit heel most of the time.
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The ballerina heel.
This is a really interesting comment. Regardless of the difference between the ballerina heel and the punter heel, I really think there is a lot of TUHU (Totally Unecessary Heel Usage) flying around. Like, you'll see someone put their heel on when you're thinking surely a toe would be better (most commonly seen on rock overs onto smears/lips where the foot is far away from you. Obviously if the hold is close by the heel can be advantageous by bringing your weight directly over the hold so you can "sit" on it, but for rockovers off to the side the toe normally provides greater accuracy, dexterity and leverage . See heel use on Blind Date, Beast of the Field etc). I mean, if it work's for you then fine, but for many people the heel is always the "go-to" default.
IMHO I'd argue against this. Furthermore, toe rockovers appear to severely limit how high you can place your foot, whereas a heel allows for a much higher placement before initiating the move. Could you imagine Andy_e rocking to the ear with a toe? His body would have to be much higher. Probably :off:
https://vimeo.com/155381548
I've speculated that TUHU is mostly the product of heel use being associated with hard problems and hard climbing. People think "I'm on a hard problem here, I'd best use my heel as that's what you do on hard problems". Has anybody else observed this?
I heel hook whenever possible.
Perhaps TUHU allows the user to explore the vast possibilities of the heel hook. I've observed Ondra in bouldering competitions heel hooking the shit out of everything. One should never underestimate a good heelhook, ask Ned...
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I'd agree tactics is the big change I think that occurs in 'advanced' bouldering. Really judicious application of 'standard' skills, super-accurate hand and foot movements, and doing every move consistently, with the least possible effort. The most common technique issue I see in boulderers plateauing around 7B-C is a lack of engagement and initiation with their core and legs. Not sure whether that counts as advanced though..
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Yes, very commonly observed in London walls. <snobbery>Usually from people with a brand new pair of Solutions on, falling off a V1</snobbery>
Where you watching me climb yesterday?
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Will - are you an old man reborn in a young(ish) body? ;)
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Something's gone horribly wrong with the world when a video of me climbing ends up in a thread on advanced technique in a positive manner...
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Something's gone horribly wrong with the world when a video of me climbing ends up in a thread on advanced technique in a positive manner...
:bow: :bow:
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Back onto Advanced Techniques - I was about to suggest a Ninja Moon Kick as something I'd only seen used on Cypher, but then I remembered having to do one on a 6C+!
I did one on Sing A Rainbow at Carrock, definitely helped the move. Watching Moonie do it was the first time so I'd say this falls into the advanced category, or at least "intermediate to some advanced stuff no-one can specify" ;)
I always think sequences where you move limbs up a bit and then entangle them back down to get everything in the right position seem pretty advanced.
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To me, advanced bouldering technique can be explained in the same way as 'advanced' technique in things like diving, gymnastics and tricks on ski's/ skateboards.
You start off with a basic move or form and add another. You keep adding combinations of basic moves until the motion is no longer seen as basic but complex, or 'advanced'. For the advanced moves, the basic components must be solid.
Advanced implies a beginner can't do it, but it cannot exist without the basic form which is what a beginner will first learn. So advanced bouldering technique would be a move which involves a combination of basics. Like a drop knee, heelhook and thumbsprag in one motion.
Apologies, this probably comes across as complete bollocks
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Nope, not at all, try harder next time :)
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The ballerina heel.
This is a really interesting comment. Regardless of the difference between the ballerina heel and the punter heel, I really think there is a lot of TUHU (Totally Unecessary Heel Usage) flying around. Like, you'll see someone put their heel on when you're thinking surely a toe would be better (most commonly seen on rock overs onto smears/lips where the foot is far away from you. Obviously if the hold is close by the heel can be advantageous by bringing your weight directly over the hold so you can "sit" on it, but for rockovers off to the side the toe normally provides greater accuracy, dexterity and leverage . See heel use on Blind Date, Beast of the Field etc). I mean, if it work's for you then fine, but for many people the heel is always the "go-to" default.
IMHO I'd argue against this. Furthermore, toe rockovers appear to severely limit how high you can place your foot, whereas a heel allows for a much higher placement before initiating the move. Could you imagine Andy_e rocking to the ear with a toe? His body would have to be much higher. Probably :off:
https://vimeo.com/155381548
I've speculated that TUHU is mostly the product of heel use being associated with hard problems and hard climbing. People think "I'm on a hard problem here, I'd best use my heel as that's what you do on hard problems". Has anybody else observed this?
I heel hook whenever possible.
Perhaps TUHU allows the user to explore the vast possibilities of the heel hook. I've observed Ondra in bouldering competitions heel hooking the shit out of everything. One should never underestimate a good heelhook, ask Ned...
Isn't that hold on DWR scalloped in such a way that precludes use of the toe? Obviously toes aren't always the way forward. I probably should have qualified that we should consider problems not on DWR (they do exist... :P)
If we're looking in Andy's vids for evidence then I present this:
http://vimeo.com/91358827
It absolutely never occurred to me when climbing that to put the heel on.
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That doesn't really look like unnecessary use of the heel to me. Ok, it appears like having the heel in may be better to reach the first crimp but hinder the bump move. It's all probably height/hip flexibility dependent.
I thought you meant when beginners use a heel in a completely illogical situation when flustered/on steep ground.
Someone doing it with a toe for reference: https://vimeo.com/131789547
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So what about using your heel in a non-heel hook way - e.g. around an arete - or on a hold to cam against your instep?
(I'm a member of the heel liberation - aka who gives a fuck - party)
:)
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learning skin management or how to read a weather forecast and choose the right crag is more advanced than that.
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Keeping my climbing shoes under my armpits between attempts on a cold day was a game changer for me.
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get yourself some hand warmers and put them inside your boots while they're inside your armpits. Bingly boom, toasty shoes ready to go soon as you slip them on.
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Nesh. Both of yers ;)
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Nesh. Both of yers ;)
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I thought you meant when beginners use a heel in a completely illogical situation when flustered/on steep ground.
Is this not just part of the learning curve that everyone goes through when they are a "beginner"?
They'll see people doing something at the wall such as using a heel and give it a try on something that is at their limit. They don't do it in such a manner that it actually helps them or it just doesn't help (i.e. a "completely illogical situation") but thats just part of learning to climb.
So what about using your heel in a non-heel hook way - e.g. around an arete
If putting your leg round an arete and placing the heel on the other side to your body to hold you in balance isn't a heel-hook then its......? :shrug:
Heels are probably more useful on aretes (or tufas) in this manner than getting them up high near your shoulders/hands and trying to rock on to them.
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Is this not just part of the learning curve that everyone goes through when they are a "beginner"?
They'll see people doing something at the wall such as using a heel and give it a try on something that is at their limit. They don't do it in such a manner that it actually helps them or it just doesn't help (i.e. a "completely illogical situation") but thats just part of learning to climb.
Yeh, I'd agree with that. I guess I just misunderstood what Will meant, I sort of assumed that once you got to a certain level you'd know when is appropriate to use a heel. Certainly before getting to the advanced stage!
I tighten the elastic around the bottom of my jacket and do the walk-in my my shoes anywhere inside so they are nice and warm straight away (mainly to get the rubber supple).
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I suspect the heel vs toe debate is more a question of height than experience - I often use my heel where a toe might be more usual because it better accommodates my long legs - when, for me, using the toe would be horrilbly bunched-up or require getting very high up on poor holds.
I am disillusioned that the combined wisdom of UKB has brought no revelation of a climbing "Street Fighter II" / "Mortal Kombat" style special move. Very disappointing. I was hoping for a "Whadya mean you don't know that if you tense the core and scream "Hadduken" you become briefly weightless?"
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The best technicians don't use heel hooks, just knee bars, surely 8)
The book Bounce talks about needing to spend 10,000 hours in order to master something.
In climbing you can tell that somebody has mastered things when they make something difficult look easy and doable.
But this naturalness comes from hours of grind.
I remember watching Ian Vickers win uk indoor climbing comp years ago, making it look like a warm up.
Had a go on route after comp and couldn't get off the ground.
If you are after advanced bouldering watch Sharks interview with John Gaskins.
All those subtle body/foot positions (technique) coupled with his power and strength, running on auto.
For me one of the best vimeo bouldering clips.
Thanks john, shark and gvg
https://vimeo.com/82936059 (https://vimeo.com/82936059)
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Something's gone horribly wrong with the world when a video of me climbing ends up in a thread...
Fixed :P :lol:
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appropriate use of the quote function and the ability to embed media
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If we're looking in Andy's vids for evidence then I present this:
Andy is probably the mot heelyist climber I've ever seen though. For better or worst.
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If there is nothing considered advanced then what are they intermediate to? :shrug:
Well you have got me there!
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There's a (moderately) interesting bit in here where he talks about types of moves, although some might say it's stating the fucking obvious / waffle (depending on your outlook).
http://stonecountry.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-boulder-philosophy-of-bouldering-by.html
I've managed to read the whole thing if anyone wants a look at it. Some interesting stuff, but I won't be rereading it.
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I got that too and enjoyed it.
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It's actually got some interesting concepts, but a good editor could have trimmed a few superfluous paragraphs from each chapter. And maybe a chapter or two.
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Nobody seems to have mentioned the heel-toe cam yet. Certainly one I was "taught"...if memory serves on the bendecrete wall at the Glasgow climbing wall! Not often useful, but can make a mockery of a grade when it's not been spotted.
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Am a little bit unsure of posting this on an 'advanced technique thread' but wanted to share an insight into my own bouldering that has been transformational to my ability to do hard dynamic moves. It concerns the minutae of the psychological component of bouldering. First a definition that I have developed. I define a 'dynamic' problem as one where at some point in the execution of the move where (typically) both hands and feet are in contact and pulling there comes a moment that marks 'the point of no return' after which the only possible outcome is falling or latching the next hold and there is no possibility of aborting the move and returning to the starting position. (a 'static' move in contrast can be aborted at any point in the move).
I have come to realise that what happens in the split second after this 'point of no return' is utterly crucial. What generally happens to me is this: The uncertainty of not knowing whats going to happen induces extreme discomfort (fear!). The mind automatically wants to resolve this uncertainty (technically known as the defense mechanism 'splitting' for any therapists out there). Resolution is sought in two ways both of which ruin the chance of success!
1. The lead hand stops pulling and snatches for the next hold
2. The lower body loses tension in preparation to land safely.
Of course what is required is that both hands need to keep pulling and tension maintained deep into this 'zone of uncertainty' with the hand flicking to the hold at the absolute last moment whilst maintaining tension. I have been utterly shocked how much my ability to do dynamic moves improve when I override these instincts and hold off snatching for the next hold until the last moment. I believe this psychological aspect of bouldering is little understood. Probably because it happens in a fraction of a second. I have been vipassana meditating for over ten years which mainly involves training in the speed and precision of observing mental and physical sensations arising and passing away. With a bit of practice it is quite straightforward to observe 10-15 individual sensations per second so plenty of time for the above! Also its not particularly manly to admit to being scared 6" off the mat!! It seems that the sub-conscious mind doesn't care about objective danger in the slightest. There are lots of implications from this but I would be interested if there's any resonance with anyone.
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If I was able to observe so many different physical sensations every second, I'd be terrified of all the bad things that can be felt falling off from even a low height
but yeah, I recognize that thing about keeping putting in effort after the dead point move
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I reckon one advanced technique must be knowing how and when to kill a swing when cutting loose: pushing from the lower hand, catching scrums with feet etc.
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Isn't every advanced technique advanced until you can do it? :)
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I reckon one advanced technique must be knowing how and when to kill a swing when cutting loose: pushing from the lower hand, catching scrums with feet etc.
In a similar vein, I have a dyno project in the Frankenjura where the target hold is big but flat, and a bit of deliberate swing/kick out backwards with the free foot helps to stabilise the catch. I felt pretty advanced when I figured that out.
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First a definition that I have developed. I define a 'dynamic' problem as one where at some point in the execution of the move where (typically) both hands and feet are in contact and pulling there comes a moment that marks 'the point of no return' after which the only possible outcome is falling or latching the next hold and there is no possibility of aborting the move and returning to the starting position. (a 'static' move in contrast can be aborted at any point in the move).
This is my definition of a dynamic move is one in which the centre of gravity and the hand (or I suppose possibly the foot) are moving at the same time.
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Good definition, but surely there's a difference between moving with a bit of momentum because it's more efficient than moving statically, and a full-on throw for something you couldn't reach statically?
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How about matching at the peak of the swing after cutting loose?
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How about matching at the peak of the swing after cutting loose?
case and point this:
http://vimeo.com/112839073
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I think getting compression for your legs as well as your arms is a bit more advanced, especially by just using toe/knee scums
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About as advanced as you can get :)
Pat Ament, in Master of Rock, says about John Gill in a section called ‘Telekinesis and Levitation’:
'He found in bouldering sharp clear reality, and on occasion a feeling that – with the right consciousness – he weighed a little bit less. The right mental attitude might inspire ‘a slight sensation of telekinesis’ or in fact minutely perceivable levitation. It was easy to listen to such concepts, as they flowed subtly and with somewhat of a sense of humour from Gill. After all, he did at times seem to defy gravity'
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Good definition, but surely there's a difference between moving with a bit of momentum because it's more efficient than moving statically, and a full-on throw for something you couldn't reach statically?
Yes there is. Opposite ends of the dynamic spectrum I suppose.
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I think you can get pretty 'advanced' with footwork- not in a toehook/heelhook everything in sight way (which I just about do, and which often makes rooves piss), but more in the way you place your foot.
The example which jumps to mind is on the local board using a really shitty sloping wooden foothold. I place my foot on the best part of this hold (the corner) and try to milk it by pressing as hard as I can with my toes down to the ball of my foot. My mate on the other hand places the toes/ball of his foot flat on the shit part of the hold (at a weird angle) maximising rubber contact with the wood and still does the move fine. I can't do it his way (though I would love to be able to), not sure if he can do it my way. I think 'advanced' technique when it comes to placing toes is really about understanding your own body and it's strengths and weaknesses, and knowing how best to move your body with the holds you've got, and then placing your foot appropriately. Got to say I find the different ways people use the same holds so differently pretty fascinating.
Equally really learning to pull the right amount with all of your limbs on all of the different holds you have seems to get you up some pretty hard feeling stuff.