UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => get involved: access, environment, BMC => Topic started by: john horscroft on October 08, 2015, 05:07:46 pm
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The Stanage Open Forum Meeting is coming up and it's your chance to influence how Stanage is managed. Meet the team who look after it and the Steering Group members who speak on your behalf - http://www.peakdistrict.gov.uk/stanageforum
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(http://i.imgur.com/45W5nvJ.png)
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Thanks Boss! That's much more clearerer....
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Reminder - this is tomorrow.
If its misty and dank tomorrow - you know where to go...
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Just a quickie. There were about 30-40 at the meeting. Several climbers in attendance so that was good. The Peak Park CEO didn't deign to turn up even though apparently she was having lunch nearby. Things whilst not ideal seem to be on a better and more accountable basis though funding still going to be an ongoing issue especially with further DEFRA grant cuts likely.
Meeting overran and I left at the end at the start of the official Q and A's just as some tweeded gent turned up to have a go at mountain bikers.
Worth checking out https://twitter.com/northlees as veteran ranger Bill Gordon has been making some nice contributions.
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Thanks for the report Shark. Just one error - although belatedly, Sarah Fowler, Peak Park CEO, did turn up at the meeting. For what it's worth, I've already met her wearing either a Peak Adventure Sports Alliance or Ride Sheffield hat and, in my opinion, she has a better understanding of adventure sports than her predecessor. It's a change for the better....
However, the big issue for me has been the difficulty we had selling the Stanage Sticker.
As a member of the Stanage Forum Steering Group, I've got to say straight away that climbers have been the most enthusiastic purchasers of the Stanage Sticker. I spent a couple of Saturdays in the car parks and never had any trouble persuading climbers to part with their hard-earned cash.
However, the overall numbers are pretty disappointing. I can remember saying at a BMC Area Meeting when this was first proposed that if we didn't sell 1000 stickers in the first year to climbers alone I'd eat my hat - so pass me that fedora.
So where did we go wrong? There were stickers and collection boxes at all the Sheffield climbing walls, masses of publicity on the BMC website and it appeared in these forums. The Peak Park had it on their website and several members of the Stanage Forum took time out to sell them at the car parks during April, May and June.
What more could we have done? If you heard about it, where did you hear? Where could we publicise it that would get through to more climbers, runners and mountain bikers? Are we selling it in the right way? Every penny goes to looking after one of the most popular crags in the country so why haven't we managed to enthuse climbers and make buying a Stanage Sticker a necessity not a luxury?
Over to you....
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Two points.
1) You couldn't buy it on-line. to begin with. Edit now you can
2) You need to give things time to bed into people's consciousness. Often great ideas take time to gain traction. Don't give up so easily.
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Two points.
1) You couldn't buy it on-line. to begin with. Edit now you can
2) You need to give things time to bed into people's consciousness. Often great ideas take time to gain traction. Don't give up so easily.
Thanks T_B. I think it was available on-line pretty early on, but if people weren't aware of that, it was a dreadful communication failure. Your second point is well made. I've tried to encourage myself with the thought that the 500 climbers who bought it this year will probably do so again, so we can concentrate on reaching out to those we failed to convince this year. How we do that is the real question....
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I remember at the time the stickers came out I thought the marketing from the peak park point of view wasn't great, there wasn't much info on their website. Seemed like the BMC was doing more legwork than the peak park. It wasn't made clear about the funds being ringfenced which I thought was a bit of a dropped ball.
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I only got one as a colleague told me about it and picked one up for me from Outside.
It needs a concerted social media campaign and dare I say it, some climbing 'celebs' behind it. I suggest Big Ron and Mina at the base of Careless reminding us how lucky we are etc (oh, and explaining what it is - ref Dave's post above)
Maybe give it a better name than just 'Stanage Sticker' and re-design it? E.g. 'I'm helping to protect Stanage' written on the sticker. Or at least something that will make people read it on other's windscreens and wonder what it is? The sticker itself should be an advert for the sticker...
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I bought mine on Sunday, from Outside as I was on the way to Stanage which was the first time I have climbed on Grit since the Sticker has come out.
I would agree that something like this needs a continuing push, perhaps with a few more reminders out now for the start of the grit season.
Also it was evident to me that a lot of the people at Stanage on Sunday were from more than an hour away, it seems to be (like Almscliffe?) the crag of choice for people visiting from somewhat further away. Perhaps more could be done to publicise the scheme via further away walls (I am thinking of London in particular).
Also could it be worth attaching the promotional campaign to a small video featuring climbing on Stanage on BMC tv/other video hosting climbing website a bit like the Boreal True Grip series.
Having said that all these things apply to climbers, no idea for other users.
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I thought they were well publicised online but when I went into Outside there were none on display, I had to ask a guy at the climbing desk who sent me over to the other desk and then the guy there had to go and rummage around in some boxes in the back until he found them. Maybe I was just there early and they are a bit more viable in the shop now?
Also, there wasn't any (that I could see) info on how long they are valid for?
Finally, is there a notice by the meter in the car park to say you can get the sticker? I don't think I've actually been there since I bought mine :lol:
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I don't have one (I'm so evil), but I also seem to remember they weren't available online and I don't get down shops that often. I'm also a little sceptical about where the money is going, even with the BMC pushing it. I don't remember seeing it pushed much by the local MTB crowd (who do much fine work), though that's not to say they haven't. I'll pick one up I'm sure, so as to make me less evil etc.
Is it an annual thing? I.e. it could be relaunched in Jan with something like what T_B is suggesting. He should work in marketing I reckon.
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I only got one as a colleague told me about it and picked one up for me from Outside.
It needs a concerted social media campaign and dare I say it, some climbing 'celebs' behind it. I suggest Big Ron and Mina at the base of Careless reminding us how lucky we are etc (oh, and explaining what it is - ref Dave's post above)
Maybe give it a better name than just 'Stanage Sticker' and re-design it? E.g. 'I'm helping to protect Stanage' written on the sticker. Or at least something that will make people read it on other's windscreens and wonder what it is? The sticker itself should be an advert for the sticker...
+1
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It runs for the financial year, so it will run out next April 1st. That's why there's such a big push to sell them now. Think it's currently beyond the resources of the PDNPA to do a calendar year but may push them to do that in time....
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What more could we have done? ... Every penny goes to looking after one of the most popular crags in the country so why haven't we managed to enthuse climbers and make buying a Stanage Sticker a necessity not a luxury?
Over to you....
It wasn't made clear about the funds being ringfenced which I thought was a bit of a dropped ball.
:agree: I bought one, but have no idea how the money is actually going to be used other than "looking after one of the most popular crags in the country". What is the planned work that is to be done to look after the crag? T'internet is limitless in space for sharing such information.
How about an old climbing shoe to be attached to the post of the gates in the Plantation so the noise of the gate slamming every time someone "forgets" to shut it gently is lessened, just as has been done at The Roaches...
(http://i.imgur.com/3jEibR4.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/UGcXMgT.jpg)
Also it was evident to me that a lot of the people at Stanage on Sunday were from more than an hour away, it seems to be (like Almscliffe?) the crag of choice for people visiting from somewhat further away. Perhaps more could be done to publicise the scheme via further away walls (I am thinking of London in particular).
This is an important point, in my opinion whilst it would be great to think that people further afield will participate in reality its hard to sell the value of such schemes to people visiting the crag once or twice a year.
Theres the charity box at Popular end car park that I'll throw a quid in each time I park, but its pretty unobtrusive (and no doubt purposefully so) and many likely miss it or just think "Why bother paying when I can do so for free?". Before purchasing a sticker I rarely parked in Plantation car park as the gates usually shut before I get back to the car, thats unlikely to change.
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Before purchasing a sticker I rarely parked in Plantation car park as the gates usually shut before I get back to the car, thats unlikely to change.
:agree: The dressing-down I got from the guy who shuts the Dovedale car park when I returned 20 minutes late has put me off "locked at dusk" car parks for life. Still got a sticker though. :ang:
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If they are valid until 1st April then again that's not communicated officially anywhere, also with that system if you do disclose it then it's going to put off folk from buying one later in the year. Are folk buying one now from Outside being told its only valid for 5 months? Not that is especially bothers me, but it might put some folk off.
I appreciate this is a tricky thing to get right without the overheads becoming huge (ideally you'd have a tax disc style thing with a date printed on).
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As somebody who thinks the Stanage sticker is a good idea, but have not got round to buying one yet for one reason or another, I would say that you should keep going with the sticker and not give up. It takes a long time to get people moving/thinking.
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I don't have one (I'm so evil), but I also seem to remember they weren't available online and I don't get down shops that often. I'm also a little sceptical about where the money is going, even with the BMC pushing it. I don't remember seeing it pushed much by the local MTB crowd (who do much fine work), though that's not to say they haven't. I'll pick one up I'm sure, so as to make me less evil etc.
Is it an annual thing? I.e. it could be relaunched in Jan with something like what T_B is suggesting. He should work in marketing I reckon.
....always thought you were evil personified Cofe! Been available online pretty much from the start. Best source was the BMC who were sending them out free of postage. Trust me, all the money goes to help manage Stanage - gates, rights of way etc etc. The Steering group (made up entirely of volunteers from the major user groups and locals) made that a stipulation of agreeing to the scheme. I pushed it through the Ride Sheffield Fb page but to be honest, i's not a honey-pot for MBers so i wasn't expecting much take-up there. it's annual but, as I've tried to stress, it's not repeat, NOT policed. Therefore, as long as you buy one every year, you won't be evil Cofe!!!
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I thought they were well publicised online but when I went into Outside there were none on display, I had to ask a guy at the climbing desk who sent me over to the other desk and then the guy there had to go and rummage around in some boxes in the back until he found them. Maybe I was just there early and they are a bit more viable in the shop now?
Also, there wasn't any (that I could see) info on how long they are valid for?
Finally, is there a notice by the meter in the car park to say you can get the sticker? I don't think I've actually been there since I bought mine :lol:
Thanks for the feedback about Outside Mark, I'll follow that up.
Valid for a year but see it less as a parking permit and more as a contribution to this great crag - it doesn't really matter when you buy them....
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It needs a concerted social media campaign and dare I say it, some climbing 'celebs' behind it. I suggest Big Ron and Mina at the base of Careless reminding us how lucky we are etc (oh, and explaining what it is - ref Dave's post above)
Maybe give it a better name than just 'Stanage Sticker' and re-design it? E.g. 'I'm helping to protect Stanage' written on the sticker. Or at least something that will make people read it on other's windscreens and wonder what it is? The sticker itself should be an advert for the sticker...
+1
We did get the support of Lucy Creamer and Steve McClure and Tweeted pics of them with their stickers, but problem is this all takes volunteer time! Will endeavour to do more of that next year.
The sticker itself has the slogan "Ours to care for" on it, which I like - not good enough?
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It wasn't made clear about the funds being ringfenced which I thought was a bit of a dropped ball.
:agree: I bought one, but have no idea how the money is actually going to be used other than "looking after one of the most popular crags in the country". What is the planned work that is to be done to look after the crag? T'internet is limitless in space for sharing such information.
Good points all Slackline. I think we have to get the PDNPA and BMC to work harder on this next year. If a constituency as well informed as UKB know little of the scheme, what chance anyone else?
One point worth bearing in mind is that the NP have suffered 40% cuts in the last four years and there's more in the pipeline, (a fucking disgrace in my opinion). The Authority has made clear to the Stanage management team and the Steering Group that they expect full cost recovery in the short term. If we don't find a way of making the Sticker initiative a success, then the next logical step is that they start policing the parking and introduce mandatory charges, something I've fought long and hard against. There is pressure from some quarters for that and some other even more outlandish income generation schemes to begin right now....
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If they are valid until 1st April then again that's not communicated officially anywhere, also with that system if you do disclose it then it's going to put off folk from buying one later in the year. Are folk buying one now from Outside being told its only valid for 5 months? Not that is especially bothers me, but it might put some folk off.
I appreciate this is a tricky thing to get right without the overheads becoming huge (ideally you'd have a tax disc style thing with a date printed on).
The start and finish dates are really a bit of a red-herring Dave - we're obviously having trouble getting that point over. As the scheme isn't policed, you could by this years sticker on March 31st and the one after a year later, that'd be fine by me!
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having heard what the finance guy had to say at the meeting (PDNP facing up to 40% cuts over the next few years!!) although I'm a fan of the sticker, it seems like a drop in the ocean with a tidal wave like that on the horizon.
also north lees becoming 'cost neutral' is a lot to expect; has any NP ever been cost neutral?
re-wilding would be my preference; keep bill on and release wolves...
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Before purchasing a sticker I rarely parked in Plantation car park as the gates usually shut before I get back to the car, thats unlikely to change.
:agree: The dressing-down I got from the guy who shuts the Dovedale car park when I returned 20 minutes late has put me off "locked at dusk" car parks for life. Still got a sticker though. :ang:
As far as I know Bill has never locked anyone in the Plantation car park unless they've asked him to. Parking outside does spare him the hassle of spending all night checking whether you've gone though.
Bill is due to retire soon and his replacement is unlikely to be as accommodating (for a number of reasons).
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We will make the stickers more obvious at the front counter in Outside. We did have them well advertised when they first came out, but we (obviously) need to use our advertising space for things we sell as well. Remember, cash only please.
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:agree: The dressing-down I got from the guy who shuts the Dovedale car park when I returned 20 minutes late has put me off "locked at dusk" car parks for life. Still got a sticker though. :ang:
As far as I know Bill has never locked anyone in the Plantation car park unless they've asked him to. Parking outside does spare him the hassle of spending all night checking whether you've gone though.
Bill is due to retire soon and his replacement is unlikely to be as accommodating (for a number of reasons).
Good to know. :thumbs: I have no problem with the concept of carparks that are locked at night- the problem is with my inability to judge how much light is left/ how long it takes to walk out from crags!
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Parking outside does spare him the hassle of spending all night checking whether you've gone though.
Thankfully I've never inconvenienced him, but thats incredibly nice of him for those who have missed the signs.
Bill is due to retire soon and his replacement is unlikely to be as accommodating (for a number of reasons).
Also good to know, hope whoever takes over keeps up the tweeting.
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I was probably on my big holiday when the scheme was launched. I live in Hathersage, go to Outside and The Works quite a lot, look on here and ukc a fair bit and go to Stanage and I had not heard about it until just last week (can't remember where I found out) and when I did find out I didn't realise the money was ring fenced/what it was going to be used for.
I would have thought for climbers from further afield they may have heard about it at the launch but not been planning on going to Stanage at the time, when they get around to heading to the peak they may have forgotten about it (it really doesn't seem that well advertised). People always want beta and always like watching 8B wads struggling on 7A mantles so I suggest Mason buts it on the start of all his videos.
Someone (was it John H) said they had been at the car parks a few times flogging the sticker - obviously this relies on keen volunteers but it does sound like it would work especially if backed up with info on where the money is going to be used. If we could organise a few times to do this I would be happy to take a shift up there.
Working for DMM I do a few events around the country, if/when doing one local to the Peak I would have no problem either just promoting the sticker scheme or actually selling some. WC are based in the Peak... Boot demos at local walls...
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I was probably on my big holiday when the scheme was launched. I live in Hathersage, go to Outside and The Works quite a lot, look on here and ukc a fair bit and go to Stanage and I had not heard about it until just last week (can't remember where I found out) and when I did find out I didn't realise the money was ring fenced/what it was going to be used for.
I would have thought for climbers from further afield they may have heard about it at the launch but not been planning on going to Stanage at the time, when they get around to heading to the peak they may have forgotten about it (it really doesn't seem that well advertised). People always want beta and always like watching 8B wads struggling on 7A mantles so I suggest Mason buts it on the start of all his videos.
Someone (was it John H) said they had been at the car parks a few times flogging the sticker - obviously this relies on keen volunteers but it does sound like it would work especially if backed up with info on where the money is going to be used. If we could organise a few times to do this I would be happy to take a shift up there.
Working for DMM I do a few events around the country, if/when doing one local to the Peak I would have no problem either just promoting the sticker scheme or actually selling some. WC are based in the Peak... Boot demos at local walls...
Great stuff! Could you PM me? There are some crackin' ideas there which could easily transfer to other people/organisations. Cheers El Mocho
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Thanks everyone who responded to my plea for ideas - typically challenging/helpful UKB response! Plan is to review the campaign, take account of the feedback and come up with a turbo-charged version for the next year. Thanks all!! :great:
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Regarding the sticker. I haven't bought one as I already get one of the PDNP parking permits every year.
It's a guess but you may have sold as many as you are going to. The market can only be so big?
Have UKC ran a front page story on this? Worth asking them to do so.
I've seen the sticker publicity in BMC mag but not noticed it in any climbing walls. Is there a poster?
Selling at the car parks does sound like the best option to me.
I shall start advertising the sticker in my climbing videos. Is there a pdf/jpg poster?
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If theres a way to get people to pay via a direct debit (rather than one off payment) - possibly via the incentive of a small discount - then you don't have to worry about the yearly renewal/date/when it happens etc..?
I've no idea if the parks website can handle that though..
I'd have bought one - but.. when they were first announced the website didnt work - and I've not been back to look since..
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If theres a way to get people to pay via a direct debit (rather than one off payment) - possibly via the incentive of a small discount - then you don't have to worry about the yearly renewal/date/when it happens etc..?
I assume the stickers colour and/or graphic needs changing annually à la National Trust stickers, otherwise you need only buy one and never renew. Synchronising renewal to a fixed date is therefore essential. You could still take payment by direct debit though.
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I'd have bought one - but.. when they were first announced the website didnt work - and I've not been back to look since..
John, here's your problem. If someone who knows about it, climbs in the peak a lot (though maybe not at Stanage) but hasn't bought one and probably wouldn’t were if not for this thread (mild guilt might now change this….), it'll be hard to hit your targets. TomTom should be the “baseline” sales, with occasional visitors being a top up.
The BMC website is pretty easy though, an it’s discounted with the Stanage guide. Some good suggestions in this thread, especially the volunteers in car parks, UKC and adding it into videos.
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I'd have bought one - but.. when they were first announced the website didnt work - and I've not been back to look since..
https://shop.peakdistrict.gov.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=31
works now
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Some good suggestions in this thread, especially the volunteers in car parks, UKC and adding it into videos.
We need a film with various Dead Fit People Who Go Climbing crushing at Stanage with only floating car park sticker logos to cover their modesty. ;) God knows it's still warm enough for it.
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Hi John,
I considered getting one but for me, its too expensive. As nice as it is to support a good cause, as this certainly is, I would also want to get value fromt he ticket, i.e. to save money on net on parking at Plantation.
As a non-local, I don't visit the crag very often (once, maybe twice, a year). If I visited more regularly I definitely would have got one.
I think focussing your advertising on Sheffield is a mistake. Climbers also live in other parts of the UK. You should definitely get in touch with the Huddersfield and Brighouse walls as the users here are likely to use Stanage quite a bit, as are some who use The Depot (Leeds) and CityBloc, not to mention the Nottingham/Derby and Manchester walls. Dare I say that a regional discount for tickets sold at walls in Yorkshire would make it more cost effective for less frequent users? Its not like you have to cover significant production costs (I hope!) so even a heavily discounted ticket is good money in the pot.
I also think that issuing on a calendar year basis is something that needs changing as it means sales will probably nose dive after perhaps the first quarter. If you issued a simple stamp to each wall selling stickers then it shouldn't be much trouble for the counter staff to add a year to the sale date and stamp it on. Obviously this isn't immune to tampering but I think its unlikely that the average Stanage visitor would do this given the worthy cause that the stickers support. You must be planning on changing the colour of the sticker in 2016? I'd feel uncomfortable buying one in the latter part of this year on a verbal promise that there was to be no enforcement and that any 2015 stickers would be valid in 2016. As said above, there is likely to be a changing of the guard soon and the new ranger might not be so forgiving.
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:off:
As said above, there is likely to be a changing of the guard soon and the new ranger might not be so forgiving.
My understanding is that whilst its simple to issue fines for parking on "private land"[1] it would be very difficult to actually enforce fines. See...
Vehicle control services parking ticket (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,20431.msg473261.html#msg473261)
Parking ticket query (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,17918.msg318099.html#msg318099) (bit dated now)
Parking fine - Meadowhall Retail Park - should I pay up? (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=12269.0) (even more dated)
Another "weasling out of paying parking fines" question :) (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=15025.0) (ditto)
[1] Is the car-park and more broadly Stanage in general private land?
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It won't be up to the ranger to be forgiving or not, it will be whether the policy of the park changes. Which it won't if the sticker is a success. If you only visit twice a year just pay a the machine.
Stanage is not privately owned, it is in the (public) ownership of the Peak National Park, so they would have no problem enforcing fines if they wished.
I don't think the stamp idea is a goer, it needs to be simple.
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Stanage is not privately owned, it is in the (public) ownership of the Peak National Park, so they would have no problem enforcing fines if they wished.
Thank you for the clarification on ownership Adam.
Issuing of fines is therefore the responsibility of the local constabulary (https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/transport/driving-and-parking/parking-tickets/parking-notices-issued-by-the-police/) (since Peak National Park is not a council (https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/transport/driving-and-parking/parking-tickets/parking-tickets-on-public-land-where-the-council-is-responsible/)). It would be a shame to see the funds diverted into the police coffers.