UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: Alan James, Rockfax on February 20, 2015, 12:09:18 pm
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NOTE - Message cleared with Shark before posting. Has also been posted on UKC.
We are working on the new edition of Eastern Grit at the moment. One of the questions that is cropping up is what grading system to use for routes which are now almost always highballed.
Our maxim at Rockfax has been to grade routes in the style that most people climb them, hence we are currently planning to switch some grades from trad grades to Font/V grades for the routes mostly climbed in this style.
Some examples (there are many more, and I am happy to take suggestions):
Ulysses' Bow - V7 7A+ instead of E6
The Promise - V9 7C instead of E8
Nicotine Stain - V4 6B instead of E2
Narcissus - V7 7A+ instead of E6
Oedipus - V4 6B instead of E4
Toy Boy - V10 7C+ instead of E7
We will also mention the E grade in the description for those contemplating it without mats. Conversely, for routes that have actual runners we will usually give the Trad grade - ie. Screaming Dream E7 with V11 8A mentioned in the description.
What are people's thoughts on this?
Feel free to use this thread to make suggestions for grades for routes that aren't boulder problems, but are now climbed in a bouldering style.
Alan
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Ditch the "V" grades
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Allow me to take this opportunity to say how shit UKC is, without it being instantly deleted (like it would be on UKC).
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I'd personally leave them all graded as trad routes with the suggested font grade in the route description.
Definitely scrap the V grades if you ask me.
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Agree on the V-grades, unless you plan to append YDS grades to all the trad routes too. Actually don't do that either, just ditch them.
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if it's in a bouldering guide - boulder grades (font not V) with route grade in description
If it's in a trad guide - trad grades with boulder grades in description.
If there's only one choice for database etc - then how it was originally climbed with either trad or font in description.
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That's a very valid point about context. It's a trad guide isn't it?
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Ditch the V Grades.
Oh and what rich d said.
I also think you should ditch the V grades.
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Please use Font grades not V grades whatever you decide to do.
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Agree that in a trad orientated guide I'd use trad grade with boulder grade in description.
Ulysses and Narcissus 7A not + IMO. Mint 400 7A/+.
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I'd personally leave them all graded as trad routes with the suggested font grade in the route description.
I agree. Plus I don't think some of those examples routes listed are really considered to be highballs nowadays e.g. Ulysses. Some people might still aspire to do historical classics like that above a beer towel, rather than 30+ pads and spotters. Or choose to leave them.
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Ulysses and Narcissus 7A not + IMO. Mint 400 7A/+.
That won't do, Barrows. To provide correct information in the guidebook would completely fly in the face of Rockfax's unique brand.
Unless, of course, you are offering to buy a copy of the book - accurate route descriptions and grades may be provided where the information has been contributed by the paying punter.
Much of this is moot anyway. People with the ability to climb 7C on the gritstone are not normally in the habit of buying Rockfax guides.
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Ulysses and Narcissus 7A not + IMO. Mint 400 7A/+.
I think it's very hard to pin stuff like this down to a font grade, Ulysses felt about 6b+ with a big snowdrift under the pads. And obviously Alex probably reached past the crux anyway.
Plus I don't think some of those examples routes listed are really considered to be highballs nowadays e.g. Ulysses.
I did have to have a think about this. They aren't in my 90's mind, but it is how almost everyone does them now, including me.
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Plus I don't think some of those examples routes listed are really considered to be highballs nowadays e.g. Ulysses.
I did have to have a think about this. They aren't in my 90's mind, but it is how almost everyone does them now, including me.
I've never seen anyone on Ulysses and hadn't realised it was getting done in that style. Sad days :'(
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I've done it four or five times with none or one pad, but it got several hundred ascents with that snowdrift.
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B-grades! :clown:
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Did anyone mention ditching the V grades?
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I like V grades as I prefer a Stetson to a Beret.
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Why not include American, Australian and SA grades too. After all we wouldnt want anyone to feel left out would we?
Then - if you had all the Font, V, AU, US, SA grades for EVERY problem, then you could fee up the page that conversion table occupies!
SIMPLE!
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if it's in a bouldering guide - boulder grades (font not V) with route grade in description
If it's in a trad guide - trad grades with boulder grades in description.
If there's only one choice for database etc - then how it was originally climbed with either trad or font in description.
:agree: Particularly the "no V grades" bit.
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Allow me to take this opportunity to say how shit UKC is, without it being instantly deleted (like it would be on UKC).
ha ha ha ha ha.
Alan? Why not wait and see what the other guidebook writers decide :popcorn:
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B-grades! :clown:
yes the Old style John Gill B grades :great: when B1+ :furious: was an achievement
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Could we have some new Rockfax (C)(TM) Icons please? After all they've been around for a while?
I suggest one depicting a climber staring in confusion at a guidebook because of the mixed grading system? Possibly scratching their head looking bemused?
Or how about one of a guide book publisher looking out of their car window with a notepad and an already published guidebook?
:)
EDIT: Damn... Sloper beat me to it!
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The last one is to complex I thin Cntrl V + Cntrl C would be easier to
copy draw.
Edit Tom, :jab:
Alan, I bet you love the way this is going don't you?
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I dont think in V grades but as I understand it the main reason for using them in general guides instead of Font grades is to avoid confusion with English tech grades.
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Original trad grade, brief indication that it is now mainly highballed, font grade. V grades have had their day. And a little thank you to UKB users in the acknowledgements.
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Original trad grade, brief indication that it is now mainly highballed, font grade. V grades have had their day. And a little thank you to UKB users in the acknowledgements.
So:
Not to be taken away HVS 5c, climb the superb rising line on the down hill slope of the boulder. May feel harder for the weak or those with poor technique. F5+ :thumbsup:
Or if culled from the chorus of morons contributing to grade debates on UKC 'worth 6c+ for the onsite, looser'.
But more seriously I do have something positive to contribute to the debate, but given this site is supposed to be childish, pureile and bitter I'll keep it to myself.
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Original trad grade, brief indication that it is now mainly highballed, font grade. V grades have had their day. And a little thank you to UKB users in the acknowledgements.
:agree:
I think it's worth pointing out that most of the stuff getting highballed like Narcissus / Ulysses etc. are by teams of regular grit climbers who know the area well and are operating (for the most part) within their grade above a stack (i.e. double figures worth) of mats.
Advertising Ulysses as a Font 7A to visitors to the area (who are presumably a large percent of the target market for the guidebook) is only likely to increase the A&E admissions / MR callouts for busted ankles or worse.
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V & Font grades as the default grades, E-grades in brackets.
You want to provide the most useful, accurate information for people in the style they are going to climb it. The vast majority climb these routes as highballs with several pads, not as solos, therefore they should be graded as such. The E-grade provides addition information as to how highball the highballs are, as well as extra information for the tiny minority that will solo them padless.
Personally it's not of much use to me as I just buy BMC guides, but if it stops numpties claiming big E-numbers when they haven't climbed them, that will be something beneficial.
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Advertising Ulysses as a Font 7A to visitors to the area (who are presumably a large percent of the target market for the guidebook) is only likely to increase the A&E admissions / MR callouts for busted ankles or worse.
I assume visitors will be as able as locals to use their peepholes to look at climb to see how big it is?
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....or the old skool E6 grade mentioned in the text or brackets.
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Advertising Ulysses as a Font 7A to visitors to the area (who are presumably a large percent of the target market for the guidebook) is only likely to increase the A&E admissions / MR callouts for busted ankles or worse.
I assume visitors will be as able as locals to use their peepholes to look at climb to see how big it is?
its getting late in the working day - its a friday. I read this and wondered why people would want to look at a rock through a small hole in a sheet of cardboard.
Then I understood :D
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Advertising Ulysses as a Font 7A to visitors to the area (who are presumably a large percent of the target market for the guidebook) is only likely to increase the A&E admissions / MR callouts for busted ankles or worse.
I assume visitors will be as able as locals to use their peepholes to look at climb to see how big it is?
You'd think that but in my experience there's no accounting for idiots.
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this site is supposed to be childish, pureile and bitter I'll keep it to myself.
Ugly, primitive, juvenile and offensive (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?page=about_ukb) (can't find the original quote, but the did find Chris's apology (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=13536.0)).
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It's a long time since I did it but Ulysses can't be 7A+ surely?
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Ulysses should be E6. You should tick E6 only if you climb it without pads wearing knee high sport socks. It can be soloed above pads. The crux is at a height that can be highballed, but it's a route. You don't climb this like a boulder problem. It's a route.
Ditch the V grades. Seriously.
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V grades are going by the sounds of it.
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V grades are going by the sounds of it.
Fiend stuck up for them. So When it comes out with V grades in it we can all blame Fiend ;)
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this site is supposed to be childish, pureile and bitter I'll keep it to myself.
Ugly, primitive, juvenile and offensive (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?page=about_ukb) (can't find the original quote, but the did find Chris's apology (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=13536.0)).
Well I contribute at least 3 out of 4. 8)
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I would agree you're not primitive Sloper ;)
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I would agree you're not primitive Sloper ;)
Definitely a sophisticate.
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V grades are going by the sounds of it.
Fiend stuck up for them. So When it comes out with V grades in it we can all blame Fiend ;)
At least with V grades you will be able to climb them wearing your spurs. Where as with Font grades who wants to go climbing wearing strings of onions.
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At least with V grades you will be able to climb them wearing your spurs.
Just don't use one of those airpads...
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I was going to say wearing your chaps but I wasn't sure where that would lead.
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I couldn't possibly comment. It was fiend who preferred the V grades.
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Fiend wearing chaps would be a significant event for climbing fashion.
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On the cover of the new Eastern Grit. Rivelin. Alter Crack. VS 4omg.
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JFCOAB I've read the discussion on the other side and what a load of fucking drivel and twattery.
7a =/+7a I can think of some 7b+s in Font i.e. Magic Bus that are easier than 7a slabs and so on, to say all 7a's are equally 'hard' is nonsense.
The idea that Kayak at Curbar is Font AD- is fucking hilarious and let's not forget that Strawberries is 4+ as a benchmark.
Anyway the wife will be downstairs soon so on y va.
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Fiend wearing chaps would be a significant event for climbing fashion.
Fuck I haven't thought of that, give me time.
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Fiend wearing chaps would be a significant event for climbing fashion.
Fuck I haven't thought of that, give me time.
Chaps, red camo under 'garments' and a pink Stetson (with a furry rim). It's a strong look. Webbo - I hope you could be there too with your matrons outfit ;)
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/8c/13/9d/8c139df22e69404cf18ee61891397687.jpg)
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Cocks.
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Cocks.
That's not a bad idea. Give the Font grade then a rating of 1 to 10 cocks on how likely folk will claim the trad grade above 10+pads.
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Cocks.
That's not a bad idea. Give the Font grade then a rating of 1 to 10 cocks on how likely folk will claim the trad grade above 10+pads.
Cocks are a great idea. Plenty of scope for things being soft for the grade - and it certainly sticks in the - er - mind. Nice easy icon system too.
Alan - we've solved the problem.
Rockfax will use cocks.
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Rebrand to Cockfax. Perfect.
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What is it with the tradition of giving anything E6+ on grit that gets highballed "7a" as a minimum? There is absolutely no way Ulysses is Font 7a difficulty-wise, its way easier. I also agree with 205Chris, these things are still routes really. Yes they do get highballed but we aren't talking about wanging your one pad under it, that would do precisely fuck all if you lobbed from the crux of Ulysses for example; we're talking massive piles of pads. I don't think we need to pretend this is in any way common. Just give them route grades.
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How's this for a new logo, TT?
(http://www.chickens.allotment-garden.org/chickens/aggression/assets/cockerel.jpg)(http://abovethelaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/old-fax-machine1.jpg)
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How do you know these routes are 'usually done' as big team highballs? The easier routes are part of long established circuits, doubtless regularly soloed by folk on their own, with few pads and little fuss – you’re just not around to see them.
Toy Boy makes sense as a highball boulder problem. You can fall off the crux in reasonable safety without taking unusual measures, such as piling up £4k worth of pads.
Ulysses is a different story. Sometime in the late nineties, I saw a future notable climber come off the crux onto a giant pad stack and break his ankle. A year or two later, on an icy winter day, I stumbled across Mark Katz standing underneath Ulysses looking slightly bemused, having slipped off the crux and missed his single pad. He was totally fine: "Katz always land their feet" he said casually, before getting in his 2CV and glissading back to Llanberis.
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It also helps if you weigh about the same as a kitten.
But let's also recognise the variation in font grades which gets more ascents per attempt Magic bus at 7b or Anlge Jean Luc at 6b+
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The easier one angle jean luc, what's your point? Why are you comparing something that's not hard like angle jean luc with something that you have more than likely had to train a bit for like magic bus?
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How do you know these routes are 'usually done' as big team highballs?
Not sure where you got that 'usually big team' from. I think the usual style is as you say - a few climbers, a few pads. But the odd line like Narcissus seems to get the team treatment a couple of times a year, proably racking up more ticks than the rest of the year put together.
And of course nowadays a lot of people tick this stuff on online databases like UKC. Have a look for yourself (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10933). I not suggesting that anything like all ascents are logged online, but I do think the proportions are representative. I'm still out on the crags every week...
Angle Jean-luc is an enormous sandbag at 6b+ and everyone knows it. Dense certainly made it look hard. Or impossible even...
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How do you know these routes are 'usually done' as big team highballs? The easier routes are part of long established circuits, doubtless regularly soloed by folk on their own, with few pads and little fuss – you’re just not around to see them.
Okay but how about numbers of actual climbers, rather than numbers of repeats by the same climbers (who also will know the routes therefore the original onsight grade will become pretty meaningless to them). The former (general public rather than local gurus lapping things) are whom it should be graded for and I still very strongly suspect they - the vast majority - will be using pads, multiple pads on higher highballs.
I haven't done much grit in recent years but since common pad usage I have NEVER seen anyone else do highballs / micro-routes without a couple of pads, and I'd guess 95% of the photos / videos I've seen shows the same.
Nice story about Katz tho.
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Have a look for yourself (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10933).
Big up Si Witcher back in 97!
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What about the dewy decimal system
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Not sure where you got that 'usually big team' from.
Thought it was implied in the opening post, perhaps it wasn't.
The best thing about giving font grades to sketchy solos is we'd have a few more sandbags: Archangel – Font 4; Edge Lane – Font 5. It'll be just like the Elbsandstein.
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What about the dewy decimal system
796.525
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Angle Jean-luc is an enormous sandbag at 6b+ and everyone knows it. Dense certainly made it look hard. Or impossible even...
Impossible is just around the corner. Impossible to say I've done it 7 or 8 times and have never done magic bus, tried twice doesn't like my long legs. What's next in the old font sandbags that are the hardest probs in the forest. Let me save us some time, beurre marga? Hardest prob in forest, moon falls off it. Nah, angle allain? Ondra slips off it. Nah, science friction hands down? Le menestual cycle falls off it. Any more?
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Of your examples Alan I'd say one should go in under bouldering grades alone (Nicotine Stain); Toy boy should be written up as a 7C+ direct start to an E3, the others under route grades with a mention that they can be highballed. To my mind some routes do need re-assigning as boulder problems, but it's very much a case by case thing and shouldn't happen as soon as a route gets the mega pad treatment. As has been pointed out giving grades will be even harder than usual. There is no right answer whichever way you go and it's confused by the fact that where highballs have been graded as boulder probs to date there has been a wildly variable amount of overgrading, or none at all, some unconscious, some deliberate.
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Oh and ditto what everyone else say - drop the V grades
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Fiend wearing chaps would be a significant event for climbing fashion. improvement on what he normally wears
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Of your examples Alan I'd say one should go in under bouldering grades alone (Nicotine Stain); Toy boy should be written up as a 7C+ direct start to an E3, the others under route grades with a mention that they can be highballed. To my mind some routes do need re-assigning as boulder problems, but it's very much a case by case thing and shouldn't happen as soon as a route gets the mega pad treatment. As has been pointed out giving grades will be even harder than usual. There is no right answer whichever way you go and it's confused by the fact that where highballs have been graded as boulder probs to date there has been a wildly variable amount of overgrading, or none at all, some unconscious, some deliberate.
It's perfectly clear that when things which were given route grades are actually boulder problems i.e. safe bet, banana finger and quite clear when a route is a route, even if it is often soloed with a few pads i.e. narcissus.
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Alan - what do guidebook authors do in other areas with lots of highballs - for e.g. Bishop? Copy that and drop the V grades for font grades.
And try to see if you can squeeze in an appendix containing unresearched details of as many of the good and currently undocumented new problems in North Wales as space allows, written by someone largely clueless about the area, such that it renders obsolete work on a new edition of the NW bouldering guide. :jab:
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Alan - what do guidebook authors do in other areas with lots of highballs - for e.g. Bishop? Copy that and drop the V grades for font grades.
A bit different when an area has been developed solely as bouldering from the start, although even there the really big problems get a YDS grade.
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Yes different, but all that's being suggested is a change to a system that already exists elsewhere, so it's sensible to look to examples of what it is you're aspiring to. It's not like Rockfax/BMC whoever are re-writing the rules of the climbing game, just how it's perceived by some people.
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Do you know what I'm looking forward to? A Rockfax V7 to 15 guide to Fontainebleau :tumble: :jab:
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Yes different, but all that's being suggested is a change to a system that already exists elsewhere, so it's sensible to look to examples of what it is you're aspiring to. It's not like Rockfax/BMC whoever are re-writing the rules of the climbing game, just how it's perceived by some people.
From my perspective I would say that the bishop analogy is a poor one as the climbing style is so radically different (secure and generally steep (w positive holds) vs insecure and slabby (w slopey holds)) and in general the landings are so much better in Bishop.
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What about the dewy decimal system
796.525
Caving= :shit:
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What about the dewy decimal system
796.525
Caving= :shit:
Oops. 796.52230942511 :smartass: