UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: Sloper on January 07, 2015, 01:10:53 pm
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Reports are that there's at least 12 dead. Genuinely shocking.
Early reports are that it is 'islamic' terroirsts (although that's hardly surprising), let's hope that the FN and the other far right movements in Europe don't make mischief from this tragic crime.
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(http://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10403129_871700782853061_686227097687732709_n.jpg?oh=e335c9bf9fc5a4813e9815323211e4f0&oe=5539EA6A)
:'(
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Horrific, and sadly inevitable. The freedom to use parody, and to satirise, ridicule and mock ridiculous bullying people with ridiculous limiting views - proponents of extremist versions of Islam/Catholicism/Jewish/Protestant/Scientology/Buddhist religions - is the only sane response to lunatics. Better than sending in armies.
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One of the things that fuels this is the deference to the more moderate lunatics (i.e. the ones that protest about the satantic verses etc but don't engage in terrorism) provides the space for the terrorists to flourish, one of the terrible legacies of right on fuckwits.
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And it provides fuel for fuckwits like Farage (just been on C4 news) to push for tighter controls on migration etc..
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Yes absolutely, this is manna from heaven for the far right cvnts (see my original post) and could lead to real and lasting damage to society.
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Yes absolutely, this is manna from heaven for the far right cvnts (see my original post) and could lead to real and lasting damage to society.
That is the ultimate objective of the puppet masters behind such attacks.
The polarisation and subsequent petty racism that springs from it, pushes ever more hormonal teens and idiot dreamers into the wings of the theatre.
Punch and Judy.
Always the baby that gets hurt.
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What amazes me is that they can walk into an office in broad daylight, in a capital city, in the middle of the day, with umpteen people watching and filming it, and yet they basically manage to drive offand get away (at the moment) scot free. You'd think there'd be system in place to put the entire area on lockdown, roadblocks, armed response teams surrounding the joint before you could say Kalashnikov.
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What amazes me is that they can walk into an office in broad daylight, in a capital city, in the middle of the day, with umpteen people watching and filming it, and yet they basically manage to drive offand get away (at the moment) scot free. You'd think there'd be system in place to put the entire area on lockdown, roadblocks, armed response teams surrounding the joint before you could say Kalashnikov.
They were armed with automatic weapons, to properly respond would require what 30 men with appropriate weapons, I doubt if that response ( as opposed to having the unit mooching around the area fully geared up) would be available anywhere with a response time of <3 minutes
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Interesting commentary.
http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.html
And Dave, sounds great, but if we actually did live in that world, we'd be more afraid of the Uniforms than the Balaclavas...
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Missus has just told me that there's been shooting in a suburb just SW of Paris, the man escaped in the metro system. I have no other info, nothing yet in the press.
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Missus has just told me that there's been shooting in a suburb just SW of Paris, the man escaped in the metro system. I have no other info, nothing yet in the press.
From BBC live feed:
"07:49
There has been shooting this morning south of Paris, with one police officer injured. Police say there is no link to the Charlie Hebdo attack."
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This seems to be everywhere today here (this one is on our office door)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-__S0xjMqId0/VK53bv9kwnI/AAAAAAAABtY/f2Qk77sRhUI/s800/IMG_20150108_132357.jpg)
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Interesting commentary.
http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/sharpening-contradictions-satirists.html
And Dave, sounds great, but if we actually did live in that world, we'd be more afraid of the Uniforms than the Balaclavas...
Bollocks we would. Rapid response to events like this, in a capital city, when you're in a country with a significant recent history of attacks does not equal a police state. It's just a prudent precaution. I thought Paris was on terrorism defcon3 already. And anyway, we largely exist in that world already. There's probably other similarly innocuous looking streets in Paris where they wouldn't have got 200yards away before being busted, or at least found a road blocked by a police car.
Given they have today announced the names of the gunmen you'd assume they had some fairly good intelligence on them in the run-up to this.
What's interesting is in contrast to the traditional jihadist attacks in the 2000s these guys have tried to get away. Back in the day you'd think they would have blown themselves up, fast track to rubber dinghy rapids.
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I think you're vastly underestimating the logistical reality of providing anything like that level of response. All you could hope to do would be to automatically lock down the building, which would in practice probably be impractical to implement and counter-productive in action.
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Given they have today announced the names of the gunmen you'd assume they had some fairly good intelligence on them in the run-up to this.
Or the murderers left their ID cards in the escape car
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Given they have today announced the names of the gunmen you'd assume they had some fairly good intelligence on them in the run-up to this.
Or the murderers left their ID cards in the escape car
If that's true then it's more like Four Lions than I thought. Amazed they didn't go in doing an IRA voice.
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Given they have today announced the names of the gunmen you'd assume they had some fairly good intelligence on them in the run-up to this.
Or the murderers left their ID cards in the escape car
If that's true then it's more like Four Lions than I thought. Amazed they didn't go in doing an IRA voice.
Apparently yes... Though it could all be a cunning ruse. I suspect this will not end peacefully...
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Bollocks we would. Rapid response to events like this, in a capital city, when you're in a country with a significant recent history of attacks does not equal a police state. It's just a prudent precaution. I thought Paris was on terrorism defcon3 already. And anyway, we largely exist in that world already. There's probably other similarly innocuous looking streets in Paris where they wouldn't have got 200yards away before being busted, or at least found a road blocked by a police car.
Reports suggest the attackers did kill two policeman - presumably armed - who were tasked with guarding the building? If so, you can't get much more immediate response than having two police on the scene before the killers arrived. Pretty difficult to prevent and/or then catch determind lunatics aremd with assualt rifles no matter how well prepared you are.
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What amazes me is that they can walk into an office in broad daylight, in a capital city, in the middle of the day, with umpteen people watching and filming it, and yet they basically manage to drive offand get away (at the moment) scot free. You'd think there'd be system in place to put the entire area on lockdown, roadblocks, armed response teams surrounding the joint before you could say Kalashnikov.
They were armed with automatic weapons, to properly respond would require what 30 men with appropriate weapons, I doubt if that response ( as opposed to having the unit mooching around the area fully geared up) would be available anywhere with a response time of <3 minutes
military police holding automatic rifles is an everyday sight in some paris metro and railway stations (which doesn't mean they are everywhere at any time)
a closer comparison: a recent theft at a Cartier jewelery, done by two men holding AK47's, ended up with the two men, driving a two wheel vehicle, being followed by police for a few km's and then arrested.
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If that's true then it's more like Four Lions than I thought. Amazed they didn't go in doing an IRA voice.
That bit might seem a bit four lions but the efficiency, the fact that they were aware there were armed police but were neither deterred nor stopped, the apparent competence with their weapons (no automatic fire) and the fact they are still at large would suggest they seem a bit more professional.
Hopefully I'm wrong.
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military police holding automatic rifles is an everyday sight in some paris metro and railway stations (which doesn't mean they are everywhere at any time)
There used to always be a few vans full of tooled up CRS mooching round the less salubrious areas of the city but not necessarily where needed yesterday. Two armed cops in the local metro would not necessarily have been able to stop them, the armed police protection in the building didn’t.
a closer comparison: a recent theft at a Cartier jewelery, done by two men holding AK47's, ended up with the two men, driving a two wheel vehicle, being followed by police for a few km's and then arrested.
But how long were the perpetrators in the jewellery shop? An alarm hardwired to the local-ish armed police as soon as the robbery commenced might have bought the police enough time to respond. Time is of the essence.
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I think you're vastly underestimating the logistical reality of providing anything like that level of response. All you could hope to do would be to automatically lock down the building, which would in practice probably be impractical to implement and counter-productive in action.
This is very much my point.
Assuming only a front and rear exit from the building (likely there are more), this immediately presents four (or more, should the building sit at a cross roads) possible escape avenues. As you expand out, with each junction, in each direction, this number expands exponentially.
Such a lock down would require a huge number of personnel, prior planning and propositioning for each possible target.
Any Police force, capable of locking down an entire city district (let alone an entire city), would be a de facto Police state; simply because the numbers of policemen required would be such that they would form a significant portion of the population.
Ergo their uniforms would be ubiquitous...
And scary.
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The Charlie Hebdo building was secure - they forced a receptionist/person to open the door at gunpoint...
Very hard to protect against stuff like that... two folks AK47's, well trained, ruthless, no fear for their own lives...
Endgame is going to be messy ~ and the other shooting is a scary escalation too.
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a closer comparison: a recent theft at a Cartier jewelery, done by two men holding AK47's, ended up with the two men, driving a two wheel vehicle, being followed by police for a few km's and then arrested.
But how long were the perpetrators in the jewellery shop? An alarm hardwired to the local-ish armed police as soon as the robbery commenced might have bought the police enough time to respond. Time is of the essence.
true
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The Cartier shop was presumably Avenue George Vth or close by i.e. where there is monster cctv and there are always plenty of cops in the area, the 11th Ard is quite different; think Isligton vs Knighsbridge
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*Source disclaimer* I in no way, even slightly, support Fox or it's affiliates and would quite like to see them all forced to dress in drag and march in a Gay pride parade, carrying atheist banners and made to vote Democrat.
However, this clip to some degree addresses the problems faced by the policemen on duty a Charles Hebdo that day (and some other recent events, elsewhere). Scenario 1, being the most revealing.
It also explains why defence in depth is so critical.
They almost certainly did not have time to raise an alarm, let alone a firearm and two armed officers are only a token deterrent and of little practical value.
Also, I think the principle difference between a robbery and this, is that the robbers (probably) did not intend to harm, but threaten harm with the aim of achieving an exchange. That has to be a slower process than this incident. The shooters intended only harm, knew where they were going and were willing/eager to kill anyone that got in their way.
http://www.fox10phoenix.com/Clip/11014328/activist-critical-of-police-undergoes-use-of-force-scenarios#.VK4Ue2JL7Hk.facebook
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Eh up - some action happening now... car hijacking, car chase etc..
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Hostage taken... stand off...
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Hostage taken... stand off...
Glad I'm not visiting a customer of mine about 500 yards away in Dammartin...
Scary stuff.
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hopefully they'll be taken alive - I get the impression they're not the suicide types
the puppet masters are probably hoping for a couple of martyrs
( now the homepage says "Charlie Hebdo massacre by lagerstarfish")
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The aftermath of the massacre leaves me perplexed...
A very professional aggression that ends up in a chaotic escape, stealing cars, taking hostages...
Hmmm... I'm not a big fan of the conspiracies' theories, but in this case it does seem to me as if they've been "protected" and "instructed" very well for the assault, then left alone for the escape, in which they've resorted to usual non professional techniques. Maybe there really is a master of puppets that was hoping that they were/are killed.
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I'm not sure how professional it was beyond the fact they could hold a gun correctly and knew the office address (they got it wrong twice). They didn't know what their 'targets' looked like as they called out for them by name before shooting them. Like most horrible incidents it is sometimes easier to understand and make sense of if we believe there are wider powers involved, see 9/11.
Most likely they've been to fight in Syria and thought themselves commandos.
I hope they are caught alive, they deserve intense boredom for the rest of their lives.
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The guy who drove the car they hi-jacked told french media that they behaved very relaxed. No running, no sweating, no raised voices, one guy just calmly said to him "we need your car" while pointing a machine-gun at him.
"Tu diras, c'est al-Qaida au Yemen"
L'homme braqué rue de Meaux à Paris, près de la porte de Pantin, a raconté à nos confrères d'Europe 1 comment les deux frères Kouachi l'ont abordé pour lui voler son véhicule.
"Le conducteur descend, armé d'un pistolet mitrailleur. J'ai su après que c'était une kalachnikov. Comme j'avais ma glace ouverte. Il me dit : "Descend de ta voiture, on a besoin de ta voiture." Je descend de ma voiture. À ce moment-là arrive une deuxième personne qui monte côté passager avec aussi un fusil avec une sorte de grenade au bout. Certainement un lance-grenades, quelque chose comme ça. Il s'installe à l'avant et moi, à ce moment-là, j'ai le réflexe d'ouvrir la porte arrière et de dire : "Je récupère mon chien." L'homme a pu s'enfuir, avec son chien, indemne.
Il décrit des personnes "très très calmes, très déterminées, très posées, très professionnelles, des commandos ! Il n'a jamais élevé la voix, ils n'ont jamais couru, ils n'ont jamais paru excités. Ils n'étaient pas transpirants. Rien de tout ça. Des gens en opération, qui ont donné l'impression d'être en opération. En partant, ils m'ont dit : "Si jamais, tu t'adresses... enfin, si les médias t'interrogent, tu diras : "C'est al-Qaida au Yémen"."
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Yup - see the clustering of the bullet holes on the French police car - these guys knew how to shoot. I suspect Matt might know more on their professionalism etc...
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Yes, pretty good grouping.
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Now hostages been taken and apparently being killed in Jewish Kosher supermarket in Eastern Paris...
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The guy who drove the car they hi-jacked told french media that they behaved very relaxed. No running, no sweating, no raised voices, one guy just calmly said to him "we need your car" while pointing a machine-gun at him.
"Tu diras, c'est al-Qaida au Yemen"
L'homme braqué rue de Meaux à Paris, près de la porte de Pantin, a raconté à nos confrères d'Europe 1 comment les deux frères Kouachi l'ont abordé pour lui voler son véhicule.
"Le conducteur descend, armé d'un pistolet mitrailleur. J'ai su après que c'était une kalachnikov. Comme j'avais ma glace ouverte. Il me dit : "Descend de ta voiture, on a besoin de ta voiture." Je descend de ma voiture. À ce moment-là arrive une deuxième personne qui monte côté passager avec aussi un fusil avec une sorte de grenade au bout. Certainement un lance-grenades, quelque chose comme ça. Il s'installe à l'avant et moi, à ce moment-là, j'ai le réflexe d'ouvrir la porte arrière et de dire : "Je récupère mon chien." L'homme a pu s'enfuir, avec son chien, indemne.
Il décrit des personnes "très très calmes, très déterminées, très posées, très professionnelles, des commandos ! Il n'a jamais élevé la voix, ils n'ont jamais couru, ils n'ont jamais paru excités. Ils n'étaient pas transpirants. Rien de tout ça. Des gens en opération, qui ont donné l'impression d'être en opération. En partant, ils m'ont dit : "Si jamais, tu t'adresses... enfin, si les médias t'interrogent, tu diras : "C'est al-Qaida au Yémen"."
Okay, this I didn't know.
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I'm loving the Darth Vader helmets the French police are wearing.
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Blimey - if you think Paris is bad - have a look at N. Nigeria (via Slackers twitter account)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-30728158 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-30728158)
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Yes, pretty good grouping.
Assuming the AK was set for a 3 round burst and the range was not great, then such grouping only indicates an ability to point.
They do seem to have resisted the urge to Rock and Roll (full automatic is something reserved for suppressing fire, rather than actually hitting things. The AK47 (or the Chinese type 56 knock off) was notorious for riding up and right on full auto. The media have named the weapons as AK47, but that seems to have become a generic term and they might be later (and better) AKMs).
Their overall coolness may speak of battle hardening, psychosis, or pharmacological suppression. Who knows at this stage.
As to how quickly they were identified.
I would suspect the DCRI have a list of "Persons of interest" and how to find them, at any given time of day. There is no way they could monitor that entire list 24/7, so when the shit hits the proverbial, it's the ones who can't be found immediately that bubble to the top of the list of suspects. Filter that by last known location (if their phones were switched off a day before, but close to the scene, then they become high confidence suspects, or they live in Nice, but their phone passed through Lyon and Le Mans before disappearing... you get the picture).
And so on.
Sucks though. There really is nothing that can be done to prevent it, not without serious erosion of civil liberties.
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Just been some shooting from the two suspects site... explosions visible on sky news... :-/
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Just been some shooting from the two suspects site... explosions visible on sky news... :-/
And now explosions from the other site.. wonder if the feds have gone in simultaneously (or as near as..)
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First seige, both brothers dead, hostage free, According to Sky news. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
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Just been some shooting from the two suspects site... explosions visible on sky news... :-/
And now explosions from the other site.. wonder if the feds have gone in simultaneously (or as near as..)
That would seem to suggest some suspicion of co-ordination between the two groups of shooters. Probably best to assume that, in their shoes.
I wonder what else is happening.?
There must be an overwhelming fear amongst the commanders, that this is just the start. Are there other cells, completely independent of the the others, just waiting for the first team to play, get the security forces focus in one place...
Or is number two just a sick copy cat?
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For a while the BBC were reporting the second siege as being at a kosher bakery. So I did wonder if they would go in all buns glazing.
Sorry.
Anyway, looks like on the news that it's all over bar the shouting. Glad to see that it looks like, mainly, hostages have come out OK.
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It seems that the man who killed the policewoman yesterday and took the hostages in the kosher shop today knew the two brothers.
He reportedly asked for them to be freed when taking the hostages.
All three have been killed, appearingly.
Excellent way to never know the truth.
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What are you suggesting the truth may be Nible? Beyond 'three nutters with twisted extremest beliefs linked to Islam seek a grievance, find one, get trained up, form a plan and go wild, killing lots of innocent people and are then killed by police'?
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Sucks though. There really is nothing that can be done to prevent it, not without serious erosion of civil liberties.
:agree:
Terrible as it is, I would hate to see a knee jerk reaction to this in the form of a further encroachment on liberty.
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What are you suggesting the truth may be Nible? Beyond 'three nutters with twisted extremest beliefs linked to Islam seek a grievance, find one, get trained up, form a plan and go wild, killing lots of innocent people and are then killed by police'?
There's a lot to know: how they passed from idea to action, who gave them support, where they got trained and by who, how many like them there are still around, who gave them the AK47s, who paid for them, who is profiting from this, how they got back in France from Syria being unnoticed, why the French secret services ignored the warnings coming from Algerian services the day before the assault, etc. etc.
Briefly, what we're left with, after their death, is a partial truth that won't go much deeper than the mere facts. Had they remained alive, probably we could have known more.
In Italy we've had so many "misteries" buried in the graves of dead people, that I hate it when I feel that we're not going to be able to know as much as possible.
Just this.
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What are you suggesting the truth may be Nible? Beyond 'three nutters with twisted extremest beliefs linked to Islam seek a grievance, find one, get trained up, form a plan and go wild, killing lots of innocent people and are then killed by police'?
There's a lot to know: how they passed from idea to action, who gave them support, where they got trained and by who, how many like them there are still around, who gave them the AK47s, who paid for them, who is profiting from this, how they got back in France from Syria being unnoticed, why the French secret services ignored the warnings coming from Algerian services the day before the assault, etc. etc.
Briefly, what we're left with, after their death, is a partial truth that won't go much deeper than the mere facts. Had they remained alive, probably we could have known more.
In Italy we've had so many "misteries" buried in the graves of dead people, that I hate it when I feel that we're not going to be able to know as much as possible.
Just this.
They were never likely to be taken alive.
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What are you suggesting the truth may be Nible? Beyond 'three nutters with twisted extremest beliefs linked to Islam seek a grievance, find one, get trained up, form a plan and go wild, killing lots of innocent people and are then killed by police'?
There's a lot to know: how they passed from idea to action, who gave them support, where they got trained and by who, how many like them there are still around, who gave them the AK47s, who paid for them, who is profiting from this, how they got back in France from Syria being unnoticed, why the French secret services ignored the warnings coming from Algerian services the day before the assault, etc. etc.
Briefly, what we're left with, after their death, is a partial truth that won't go much deeper than the mere facts. Had they remained alive, probably we could have known more.
In Italy we've had so many "misteries" buried in the graves of dead people, that I hate it when I feel that we're not going to be able to know as much as possible.
Just this.
http://www.lepopulaire.fr/limousin/actualite/2015/01/08/un-commissaire-de-police-de-limoges-se-suicide-dans-son-bureau_11283307.html (http://www.lepopulaire.fr/limousin/actualite/2015/01/08/un-commissaire-de-police-de-limoges-se-suicide-dans-son-bureau_11283307.html)
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btw has anyone here enough experience with weapons to say what a close-up shot should look like?
The video of the policeman being shot is already object of great attention by conspiracy theorists.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1ec_1420640263 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1ec_1420640263)
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I wonder whether we'd have seen such a show of solidarity if the shooting had happened in this country?
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What should a close shot look like?
How long is a piece of string?
Generally not a Hollywood gore-fest.
Bullets travel pretty fast from assault rifles (no, don't remember and can't be arsed to look for muzzle velocities), they begin their flight quite stable and pass through most things without much tumble.
That changes rapidly as range increases.
Then there is the question of ammunition.
Jacketed, designed to penetrate body armour?
Flesh and bone are like wet tissue, poked with a needle.
Brought up on Hollywood, most people find their first visit to the range, or even their first live fire exercise, to be strikingly understated.
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http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/read-the-new-issue-of-charlie-hebdo-in-english.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/read-the-new-issue-of-charlie-hebdo-in-english.html)
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I was looking for a torrent of the entire CH back catalog pdf, but The Pirate Bay is down
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What are you suggesting the truth may be Nible? Beyond 'three nutters with twisted extremest beliefs linked to Islam seek a grievance, find one, get trained up, form a plan and go wild, killing lots of innocent people and are then killed by police'?
There's a lot to know: how they passed from idea to action, who gave them support, where they got trained and by who, how many like them there are still around, who gave them the AK47s, who paid for them, who is profiting from this, how they got back in France from Syria being unnoticed, why the French secret services ignored the warnings coming from Algerian services the day before the assault, etc. etc.
Briefly, what we're left with, after their death, is a partial truth that won't go much deeper than the mere facts. Had they remained alive, probably we could have known more.
In Italy we've had so many "misteries" buried in the graves of dead people, that I hate it when I feel that we're not going to be able to know as much as possible.
Just this.
http://www.lepopulaire.fr/limousin/actualite/2015/01/08/un-commissaire-de-police-de-limoges-se-suicide-dans-son-bureau_11283307.html (http://www.lepopulaire.fr/limousin/actualite/2015/01/08/un-commissaire-de-police-de-limoges-se-suicide-dans-son-bureau_11283307.html)
...
btw has anyone here enough experience with weapons to say what a close-up shot should look like?
The video of the policeman being shot is already object of great attention by conspiracy theorists.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1ec_1420640263 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1ec_1420640263)
i have used a shot gun at close range on a fox and it wasnt a blood fest.a shot gun is more likely to do that than a rifle
conspiracy nutters just pick up on anything and roll with it.
they must believe what they see in films.
also if it was staged (so obviously not) wouldnt the actors be rigged to behave like hollywood gunshots like people would expect?
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I was looking for a torrent of the entire CH back catalog pdf, but The Pirate Bay is down
Pirate Bay's been down for yonks hasn't it? A few mirror sites cropped up and they were taken down too.
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Don't worry it's easy to find!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Charlie-Hebdo-Friday-14th-January-UK-Special-Edition-Prophet-Mohammed-/151551482494?pt=UK_Magazines&hash=item23492c1a7e (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Charlie-Hebdo-Friday-14th-January-UK-Special-Edition-Prophet-Mohammed-/151551482494?pt=UK_Magazines&hash=item23492c1a7e)
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They said on the news that Charlie Hebdo have increased the print run to 5 million to fulfill customer demand. They must be making a big prophet.
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I was looking for a torrent of the entire CH back catalog pdf, but The Pirate Bay is down
ehum ... http://oldpiratebay.org (http://oldpiratebay.org) .... ehum ... (more trustworthy than demonoid at any rate)
no scanned back catalogue though....
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I was looking for a torrent of the entire CH back catalog pdf, but The Pirate Bay is down
Pirate Bay's been down for yonks hasn't it? A few mirror sites cropped up and they were taken down too.
Eh? There are loads of proxies or mirrors aren't there? There were last time I looked anyway which was probably a few weeks ago....
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Right, good. I gave up looking not long after the main site was taken down and then a few mirrors/proxies went the same way. Good to see it's still going I'll see if I can get my ***** stuff back up and running...
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I mentioned TPB in an ironic tone of voice
you know; coz people go on about it representing freedom of distributing information and all that
and it's been taken out
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The irony being that, like everything politicians try to "ban" on the internet, it blatantly hasn't been taken out and five seconds googling reveals a hundred heads where the one they chopped off used to be.......
I'm no expert and so far can't even be arsed with VPNs or anything. If Cameron can't beat me then if he expects to stop my son's generation doing whatever they want online he's even more of a moron than I thought (of course it's just posturing and being "seen to do something" unless he's getting REALLY bad advice).
Let's hope it's political posturing anyway.....
http://boingboing.net/2015/01/13/what-david-cameron-just-propos.html (http://boingboing.net/2015/01/13/what-david-cameron-just-propos.html)
What were you marching in France for again Dave? :wank: :wank: :wank:
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What were you marching in France for again Dave? :wank: :wank: :wank:
Votes.