UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: Dave Flanagan on December 05, 2013, 10:00:13 am
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(http://www.theshortspan.com/temp/peakRock.jpg)
Eh?
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I expect "frequently" is mis-applied here and that the one person who's bought the book (Lagers) also bought "Now Thats What I Call Music 86".
It'll change as more people buy the book (I expect).
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How the fuck are amazon already selling them for 23 sheets?
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loss leader?
Selling at wholesale price or less in a hope you buy other things to make up the difference.
Plus its not a big loss to them and they can undercut everyone else in the market.
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I suppose any hit they take on Peak Rock they'll more than recoup on sales of Now 86.
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How the fuck are amazon already selling them for 23 sheets?
Seems they haven't got any to actually sell so they can give it whatever price they like.
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And of course they're not paying any tax.
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Not exactly ........ The royalty payments they give the authors is vastly reduced .......
A mate of wrote a book about Black Sabbath when he was inbetween jobs and sold quite a few copies of it ....... Enough that when I visited him in London I thought he'd be able to take me out for a meal to say thanks for the help I'd given him researching it ......
He bought me a pint and a bag of crisps and explained to me that because most of the copies had been sold through Amazon he only received 32p per sale :o ......
I think that he was maybe particulary naive, but I haven't bought anything from Amazon since just in case .........
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Depends on how it was sold into Amazon - ie through a reseller/ at a guaranteed sell price/sale or return etc etc etc
Too many missing pieces of info for us to know
I do know that that etailers will sometimes only make 3 or 4p a unit on software just to stop others getting the sale and in the hope that punters will buy other stuff from the site
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I'm not sure of all the details and as he seemed so fed up I didn't want to push him ......
It is a damned good read though ......
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:off: (Maybe split this is a separate thread) Amazon are a weird case because they don't make much money but investors seem to tolerate low margins. In any other business the CEO would be sacked and the board savaged but Bezos Amazon just get treated gently by the market. I'm guessing It's really quite worrying because it is distorting the pricing in the markets in which they operate and I just don't see how it's sustainable. Worst case, Amazon continue to price everything aggressively to drive out competition until there's no one left and they just then hike the prices up to consumers and then screw suppliers right down. I'd like to see some more aggressive questioning and actions by their institutional shareholders.
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http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-10-24/same-old-amazon-all-sales-no-profit (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-10-24/same-old-amazon-all-sales-no-profit)
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My book, Bouldering Essentials, is discounted 34% by Amazon. Shops have complained that they can buy the book cheaper there than they get it wholesale. This level of discounting while great for book buyers distorts the market I think, it's not rational to buy a book that is available and heavily discounted on Amazon anywhere else.
It especially dangerous if it's unsustainable. For this reason I'm not going to put all my books (guidebooks that people will go looking for rather than just stumble across) on Amazon but for some books you have no choice.
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What is not rational is saying something is commonly sold with anything when they havent sold any. Seems to happen time and time again. Whatever happened to advertising standards? Support you local independant bookshops where you can.
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Devil's advocate, but why? Why support my local bookstores when I can save loads of money buying the same books from Amazon? It's not like Amazon are selling an inferior product as in the case of local butcher/fishmonger's locally sourced meat versus supermarket mass-produced meat. It's an interesting debate - a buyer's market and we're being told we shouldn't partake and fill our boots.
I'm wondering whether I should put the NW lime guide on Amazon (if I ever finish it) or if I should boycott.
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I notice on Amazon that there's already a positive review from someone who bought the book on Amazon.com
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I notice on Amazon that there's already a positive review from someone who bought the book on Amazon.com
I can't see it
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Wow, I reported the review as abuse, and it's already gone.
Just went back and got it fro my history.
Most Helpful Customer Reviews on Amazon.com (beta)
Amazon.com: 5.0 out of 5 stars 1 review
5.0 out of 5 stars Inspiring 5 Dec 2013
By Baechler Yves-Vincent - Published on Amazon.com
Format:Hardcover
Best history climbing book I've ever read!! Pictures, histories, all inspiring. I wish I could live in the Peak district...
A swiss climber
› Go to Amazon.com to see the review 5.0 out of 5 stars
Was this review helpful? Let us know
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Devil's advocate, but why? Why support my local bookstores when I can save loads of money buying the same books from Amazon? It's not like Amazon are selling an inferior product as in the case of local butcher/fishmonger's locally sourced meat versus supermarket mass-produced meat. It's an interesting debate - a buyer's market and we're being told we shouldn't partake and fill our boots.
I'm wondering whether I should put the NW lime guide on Amazon (if I ever finish it) or if I should boycott.
Possibly because your local bookstore is actually your local climbing wall or climbing shop and the profit they make on Peak Rock helps keep other costs down.
Or the fact that The Works sold 48 Peak Rocks on Sunday during the launch celebration (netting us about £600) means that the other costs of the event (about £1000+ when you count the hidden costs) seem that much less intangible. So we will do similar things again.
Or Johnny's book. We paid in advance for this which enabled the book to be published (well technically probably meant that Johnny could eat). If Amazon totally undercuts us then maybe books don't get published in the future because I wouldn't be bothered to help authors in the future.
Oh and by the way Johnny, you selling your book in our car park on Sunday night was way out of order due to us helping you eat.
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Devil's advocate, but why? Why support my local bookstores when I can save loads of money buying the same books from Amazon? It's not like Amazon are selling an inferior product as in the case of local butcher/fishmonger's locally sourced meat versus supermarket mass-produced meat. It's an interesting debate - a buyer's market and we're being told we shouldn't partake and fill our boots.
I'm wondering whether I should put the NW lime guide on Amazon (if I ever finish it) or if I should boycott.
and because amazon is not paying the taxes that small/local businesses do, therefor the rest of the population (the punters) (you) end up paying more taxes (higher v.a.t/council taxes)
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Wow, I reported the review as abuse, and it's already gone.
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Best history climbing book I've ever read!! Pictures, histories, all inspiring. I wish I could live in the Peak district...
Why would you want to report that as abuse?!
Phil
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I'm wondering whether I should put the NW lime guide on Amazon (if I ever finish it) or if I should boycott.
It is a interesting question from a business point of view. Will you still get whole sale from amazon? Paying the same price to you as independant shops?
Amazon gets to a wider audiance and allows none climbing people looking for birthday or christmas presents to find it easier.
However this may upset climbing shops as amazon will no doubt undercut the RRP where as shops will probably sell at rrp and only offer BMC (or student or etc) discount.
But before you decide that maybe you should finish the book so we can give you some money? :P
My personal choice is to try and buy from independant retailers as much as possible or publishers if guide books are independantly released. The climbing industry is very small and I like to think I am supporting the shops.
This is also why I try and avoid go outdoors as much as possible.
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Or Johnny's book. We paid in advance for this which enabled the book to be published (well technically probably meant that Johnny could eat). If Amazon totally undercuts us then maybe books don't get published in the future because I wouldn't be bothered to help authors in the future.
Oh and by the way Johnny, you selling your book in our car park on Sunday night was way out of order due to us helping you eat.
That'll learn ya. Johnny is many things, but on the same page as everyone else is not one of them... the only thing you should treat as a charity is actually a charity. May as well give your cash to homeless people for food/bus fare/money to get in the (free, btw) hostel and complain when they spend it on white lightening...
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only offer BMC (or student or etc) discount.
The BMC discount is, in my experience, very rarely applied to guidebooks (or DVDs) in shops (they do discount when buying direct from them, but this is usually lost when it comes to the cost of postage).
My personal choice is to try and buy from independant retailers as much as possible or publishers if guide books are independantly released. The climbing industry is very small and I like to think I am supporting the shops.
:agree: and on top of that always get local guidebooks over those produced by some larger companies. :whistle:
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Amazon gets to a wider audiance and allows none climbing people looking for birthday or christmas presents to find it easier.
However this may upset climbing shops as amazon will no doubt undercut the RRP where as shops will probably sell at rrp and only offer BMC (or student or etc) discount.
But before you decide that maybe you should finish the book so we can give you some money? :P
I would have said that for something niche like NWL the appeal and publicity is wide enough that having Amazon as a stockist wouldn't up the final sales tally in the long run. If it's widely available from alternative stockist and online (in a place where you aren't getting ripped off for postage) then people will seek it out. And if anyone wants to buy it for someone as a present then have a word in their ear to say where they can get it from!
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Who's going to buy that anyway when there's a vastly superior Rockfax version being produced?
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Pete - I don't have a problem with Amazon at all (yet). I'm just surprised that more investors don't give them grief for not making any money which means they can get away with undercutting competitors and distort markets. For all the talk of Charities above, it's as if the investors are treating it like one 'cos they certainly aren't getting anything back.
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only offer BMC (or student or etc) discount.
The BMC discount is, in my experience, very rarely applied to guidebooks (or DVDs) in shops (they do discount when buying direct from them, but this is usually lost when it comes to the cost of postage).
From what I understand the retailers markup on books compared to general outdoor gear is pretty slim, hence they tend not to discount on em.
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Shops have complained that they can buy the book cheaper there than they get it wholesale.
I've heard this too, I even know of one case where the author was unable to get copies cheaper than Amazon were selling them.
I guess the bigger they get the smaller the margin they can afford to operate on. I'm not sure a consumer boycott is likely to gain enough traction to be worthwhile. Where possible, I try to buy direct from the author/ publisher.
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The BMC discount is, in my experience, very rarely applied to guidebooks (or DVDs) in shops (they do discount when buying direct from them, but this is usually lost when it comes to the cost of postage).
From what I understand the retailers markup on books compared to general outdoor gear is pretty slim, hence they tend not to discount on em.
Thats my understanding too.
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I just had a look at the SEC filing...
Three months to Sept 2013. $17bn in Income ($5bn in Media, $11.5bn in Electronics and General Merchandise, $1bn Other (AWS)) . $41 Million Loss.
Not much margin there....
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Who's going to buy that anyway when there's a vastly superior Rockfax version being produced?
!!!!
you mean there are no pumpy arm or fluttery heart symbols next to the routes??? I'll ask MrsTT to send back the copy she got me for xmas. I'm disgusted.
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Three months to Sept 2013. $17bn in Income ($5bn in Media, $11.5bn in Electronics and General Merchandise, $1bn Other (AWS)) . $41 Million Loss.
Not much margin there....
As they say turnover is vanity, profit is sanity. I'm surprised shareholders are so amicable. I don't get it.
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I guess with $17bn turnover everyone gets pretty vain.
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It would be interesting to here v-publishings thoughts on the amazon pricing .. Cofe?
As for the loss everything is relative
$41m loss is only a 0.24% loss based on $17bn turnover.
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my dad said that Amazon insist on 60% discount off the normal wholesale price - I questioned this, but he raised his eyebrows in a "how many books have you sold" kind if way - this prompted my usual "oooh look at me vanity publishing" face
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I just had a look at the SEC filing...
Three months to Sept 2013. $17bn in Income ($5bn in Media, $11.5bn in Electronics and General Merchandise, $1bn Other (AWS)) . $41 Million Loss.
Not much margin there....
Not quite that simple, some of that 'loss' is re-investment to enable the company to expand and dominate more markets: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-10-24/same-old-amazon-all-sales-no-profit (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-10-24/same-old-amazon-all-sales-no-profit)
As they say turnover is vanity, profit is sanity. I'm surprised shareholders are so amicable. I don't get it.
..and I'd love to have been an investor in amazon, no dividend but the 5 year chart shows incredible sustained growth:
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=AMZN+Interactive#symbol=amzn;range=5y;compare=;indicator=sma%2849,13%29+volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined; (http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=AMZN+Interactive#symbol=amzn;range=5y;compare=;indicator=sma%2849,13%29+volume;charttype=area;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined;)
£1000 invested in Amazon stock 5 years ago today would have grown by approx 600%.
2 years ago: +100%
1 year ago: +55%
That's phenomenal. Wish I'd known. Compared to the generally downward roller-coaster gold and rare earth mining stocks I've taken punts on.
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(deleted duplicate post)
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whoops
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That makes sense, if I was a dragon I would have been in!
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Wow, I reported the review as abuse, and it's already gone.
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Best history climbing book I've ever read!! Pictures, histories, all inspiring. I wish I could live in the Peak district...
Why would you want to report that as abuse?!
Phil
Indeed. Why was this reported as abuse?
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I must be getting paranoid, but a review for a book that someone bought on Amazon that they've never had in stock seems a bit suspiciously fake to me. I didn't so much report it as ask the above. I never expected it to be deleted.
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Amazon have had stock of the book and you managed to get the first review removed, so thanks for that.
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I must be getting paranoid, but a review for a book that someone bought on Amazon that they've never had in stock seems a bit suspiciously fake to me.
Newsflash: the book is available from other places, and some people like to put reviews on amazon regardless of where they bought it.
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no worries, the review is still there...?
http://www.amazon.com/Peak-Rock-history-routes-climbers/dp/1906148724/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1386348611&sr=8-6&keywords=peak+rock+book (http://www.amazon.com/Peak-Rock-history-routes-climbers/dp/1906148724/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1386348611&sr=8-6&keywords=peak+rock+book)
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Sorry, apologies for that, it wasn't my intention. Hopefully I've repaired any damage done.
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Amazon have had stock of the book and you managed to get the first review removed, so thanks for that.
Hey if you want us all to go on Amazon and give it rave reviews, just ask.
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I might rave about how good a deal it is! :P
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I must be getting paranoid, but a review for a book that someone bought on Amazon that they've never had in stock seems a bit suspiciously fake to me. I didn't so much report it as ask the above. I never expected it to be deleted.
You can review items on Amazon that you bought elsewhere, reviews aren't restricted to purchased items.
The text you copied and pasted didn't give any indication of where it had been purchased.
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I'm not only paranoid, but also incredibly naive, I thought you actually had to buy the producy on Amazon to review it. Otherwise the place would be just full of shills. I now know this isn't so.
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whoops
Reinvestment doesn't affect profit or loss. Basic stuff.
You (all) should listen to FD on this as A. He's right, Amazon as it's currently run is a massive bubble. Great while it lasts but.... B. He does this shit for a living. And C. There shouldn't need to be a C.
You could have made a fortune investing in MySpace at the right time (not you Rupert).
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On the 'they don't pay any tax' issue - can someone who knows explain this - in terms of, are they doing whatever they do within the boundaries of whatever HMRC allows for companies operating in the UK? Same applies to all the other baddies like Starbucks - who pays more tax than they have to?
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Are you getting warmed up for the Friday night rant UG? ;)
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The BBC Panorama episode or the Guardian article (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/dec/01/week-amazon-insider-feature-treatment-employees-work) make for eye-opening viewing/reading about Amazon workers.
I've never liked it since it went from Amazon, to something with individual sellers as well.
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Are you getting warmed up for the Friday night rant UG? ;)
I might have spunked up early on a discourscical analogy about bike wheel sizes and shaving :-[
If I'm still compus after another wee drappie of liqcour, I'll vent.... ;)
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No shills on there whatsoever. No
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Devil's advocate, but why? Why support my local bookstores when I can save loads of money buying the same books from Amazon? It's not like Amazon are selling an inferior product as in the case of local butcher/fishmonger's locally sourced meat versus supermarket mass-produced meat. It's an interesting debate - a buyer's market and we're being told we shouldn't partake and fill our boots.
I'm wondering whether I should put the NW lime guide on Amazon (if I ever finish it) or if I should boycott.
Well, as grumpy said above, if you buy through amazon then the author is probably only getting 30p or so royalty, which doesn't seem right. Presumably, if you sell your NW guide through amazon that would massively reduce the profit per book to the bolt fund? Personally I think it would be better not to, it's a specialist book people will look for once they know it exists. Ironically I remember Alan of Rockfax making the same point a few years ago, that people should buy his new guide through normal retailers or his website as amazon basically paid them almost nothing per copy sold.
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On the 'they don't pay any tax' issue - can someone who knows explain this - in terms of, are they doing whatever they do within the boundaries of whatever HMRC allows for companies operating in the UK? Same applies to all the other baddies like Starbucks - who pays more tax than they have to?
the problem is, companies (and people) that have lots of money use international constructions that small companies can't afford to use. these international constructions are legal, but are robbing nations of many hundreds of billions in taxes per year.
while at the same time giving them an unfair advantage over local companies.
this money ends up in tax havens like the Bermudas, while nations have to raise their taxes.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2256860/Corporate-tax-avoidance-2013-following-Starbucks-scandal-paying-fair-dues.html (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2256860/Corporate-tax-avoidance-2013-following-Starbucks-scandal-paying-fair-dues.html)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement)
having your money in Bermuda causes another luxury problem though:
http://9to5mac.com/2013/04/26/apples-stock-buyback-will-cut-its-tax-bill-by-more-than-the-cost-of-the-borrowing-aapl/ (http://9to5mac.com/2013/04/26/apples-stock-buyback-will-cut-its-tax-bill-by-more-than-the-cost-of-the-borrowing-aapl/)
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I'm not sure of all the details and as he seemed so fed up I didn't want to push him ......
It is a damned good read though ......
And it's now out in paperback ....... Make a great stocking filler for the heavy metal fan in your life ..........
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You forgot to include the Amazon link.
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On the 'they don't pay any tax' issue - can someone who knows explain this - in terms of, are they doing whatever they do within the boundaries of whatever HMRC allows for companies operating in the UK? Same applies to all the other baddies like Starbucks - who pays more tax than they have to?
Basically, Amazon UK is just a distribution company and, as such, they "sell" almost nothing in the UK. When you buy a book from Amazon UK, it is actually Amazon SARL Luxembourg that process the payments. Smaller companies cannot afford to do this type of tax dodge, so have to par tax on their profits and therefore cannot compete with Amazon.
I pretty much avoid Amazon now, unless it is the only place I can buy music or a book.
Put it another way, if Amazon routed all their sales through the UK, the tax bill would have been much, much bigger. According to http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/may/15/amazon-tax-bill-new-questions (http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/may/15/amazon-tax-bill-new-questions) they declared sales of £320m for 2012 and paid on £3.2m in tax. However, they declared £4.2bn UK sales to investors. If you *very crudely* scale that up they should have paid £42m in tax, more than 10x what they actually paid.
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I don't really believe anyone but the most zealous moralist is that keen to ensure that the retailer from which they buy stuff pays more tax to the UK than they're legally obliged to. It's the UK government's job to legislate commerce, not mine, and now that retailing has become borderless and there's no effective linked-up legislation we're in a period where we're being asked to search our consciences as a form of self-legislation, because the traditional means don't apply. Fuck 'em, the market is global now. It might sound good on here to say you don't agree with Amazon because they undercut and contribute to shutting down high-street stores but high-street stores have had their days and some stores are destined to disappear, while high-streets become more residential with limited selections of local stores; the old days of every town centre being full of busy profitable shops aren't ever coming back.
Lots of people are obviously using Amazon and other online retailers despite them circumnavigating outdated business tax laws and I don't see that changing, except for even cheaper alternatives appearing. I'd say we're looking at a few major players like Amazon surviving while lots of minnows disappear, that's why Amazon are investing as much as they are to make sure they're left standing. There's a moral argument but the markets usually trump morals - ever gone to Belgium to buy cheap fags and booze and snuck a few too many packs and bottles back into blighty?
As far as guidebooks - the current system is daft and inefficient. It'll soon make sense to just sell direct via the web and use a distribution company like a mini, small-scale amazon.
As for the stock being a bubble like myspace, don't agree. Amazon have real assets - distribution centres, real products; and they actually sell physical products. Myspace sold an idea - advertising, on a social networking website. Facebook might be the next myspace. There's no comparison with Amazon except they're both on the web. But then the whole stock market is a bubble if you want to look at it pessimistically. And it won't take much of a price tweak on $47Bn turnover to make a lot of profit when you control the market.
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I can't find it - but think I've posted it here before... anyway,
I read an article WSJ? from an economist who suggested that Amazon was actually a plus for the consumer driven economy we have now - as its driven down prices gave people more money to spend on other things... ie allowed more consumption.
Not sure I agree (I loathe how our society is largely driven by consumption) - and I think Amazon should be more 'honest' about their UK tax context, but it was an interesting different angle. Sorry I tried to google it but it does exist!! honest!
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I really don't like the sound of the dystopian society which you seem to be predicting .......
So I shall continue to buy my music from Record Collector .....
My books from Bakewell for Books or Scarthins ......
And I'll continue to shop in Sheffield city centre in the same way that I've done for the past forty years or so .......
I may have to pay a little more, I may have to consume a little less, but I consider that small beer compared to letting another important part of the community I live in fade and die ......
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Just for the record, I never described Amazon as a bubble. It's just a very big, very successful company that's taking advantage of very generous investors cash to bulldoze through entire markets. Only time will tell whether that's a 'good' thing or not. The retailers I work with (John Lewis, M&S, ASOS, Argos, Homebase) are all terrified of them.
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Just for the record, I never described Amazon as a bubble.
No that was me, and I was hammered on red wine.....
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I know it's cockerknee rhyming slang, but isn't the term 'bubble' regarded as non-pc these days ....... ?
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I know it's cockerknee rhyming slang, but isn't the term 'bubble' regarded as non-pc these days ....... ?
Really? Maybe in other contexts but not in economics surely. It's been the label of choice for periods of 'irrational exuberance' for three hundred years at least.
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I know it's cockerknee rhyming slang, but isn't the term 'bubble' regarded as non-pc these days ....... ?
Really? Maybe in other contexts but not in economics surely. It's been the label of choice for periods of 'irrational exuberance' for three hundred years at least.
Yep, The South Sea Bubble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Sea_Bubble). Even Issac Newton lost his shirt.
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I know it's cockerknee rhyming slang, but isn't the term 'bubble' regarded as non-pc these days ....... ?
Really? Maybe in other contexts but not in economics surely. It's been the label of choice for periods of 'irrational exuberance' for three hundred years at least.
Yep, The South Sea Bubble (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Sea_Bubble). Even Issac Newton lost his shirt.
Sorry ....... It was a very weak attempt at humour ........ :badidea:
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Well, as grumpy said above, if you buy through amazon then the author is probably only getting 30p or so royalty, which doesn't seem right.
My distributor stocks Amazon as well as normal retails shops. I get paid the same whether you buy a copy of my book from Amazon or from V12 or wherever. It's more than 30p - thanks god. I could sell directly on Amazon for marginally more profit. Obviously the most profitable sale for me is one direct from my website.
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Devil's advocate, but why? Why support my local bookstores when I can save loads of money buying the same books from Amazon? It's not like Amazon are selling an inferior product as in the case of local butcher/fishmonger's locally sourced meat versus supermarket mass-produced meat. It's an interesting debate - a buyer's market and we're being told we shouldn't partake and fill our boots.
I'm wondering whether I should put the NW lime guide on Amazon (if I ever finish it) or if I should boycott.
I'm not suggesting a full boycott position but I think people should avoid using them for moral reasons if they have a choice. Firstly the company enjoy a monopoly like position and have exploited it ruthlessly (see links below), in their dealings with publishers, in e-books, union busting and general workforce exploitation, as well as the well know tax avoidance. Its all well and good saying governments should do something about tax etc but this is slow and difficult when dealing with huge US based global corporates and so in the meantime people can help too. The US used to break up companies when they became market dominant (remember Bell anyone) now they defend them. On the plus side bookshops and gear shops (that sell climbing books) will be greatly missed if they go: they provide the ability to look and see and feel and often a lot more besides, and people are paying not such a huge amount extra for that service.
Some other links explaining some very real issues with amazon:
http://againstamazon.tumblr.com (http://againstamazon.tumblr.com)
http://www.housmans.com/boycottamazon.php (http://www.housmans.com/boycottamazon.php)
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2013/11/amazons-unpopular-kindle-proposition.html (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/currency/2013/11/amazons-unpopular-kindle-proposition.html)
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On the plus side bookshops and gear shops (that sell climbing books) will be greatly missed if they go: they provide the ability to look and see and feel and often a lot more besides, and people are paying not such a huge amount extra for that service.
When things are cheap people simply don't give a stuff about the above. I've spent ages talking about cams (yes, yes I know) to a person that openly told me "thanks very much, that was helpful" swiftly followed by "he was going to go online and buy from a competitor" for cheaper.
When online retailers slashed the price of the Green Hornets you'd be amazed (or maybe not) how many people would openly ask to try them in store because they could buy them elsewhere for £45. These are instances where people have openly expressed their intentions, I have a strong belief that the actual number is much higher. Why not, could be one answer, I'm sure we're all guilty of doing such things with other retailers.
However, if you're hoping that the consumer will make the difference by making a moral choice then I'd say it's never going to happen, their hand must be firmly forced. People will only miss the convenience of shops when there's no longer a choice.
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Well maybe I'm more optimistic about climbers and people in general. I know lots who will use such shops. I almost never leave a climbing shop that has given me useful advice without a purchase. I guess the question is are there enough people like me as independent climbing shops and bookshops do keep closing.
I also think on the other side of the argument there is a widespread ignorance about just how nasty Amazon have been in their dealings and I think more people would think twice if they knew the details.
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I'd like to see some more aggressive questioning and actions by their institutional shareholders.
At last! http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/61ae309e-5af4-11e4-8625-00144feab7de.html#axzz3H3eRdnC1 (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/61ae309e-5af4-11e4-8625-00144feab7de.html#axzz3H3eRdnC1)
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Can't read the FT article without suscribing :(
Similar info accessible here
http://online.wsj.com/articles/amazons-spending-leads-to-another-loss-1414095239 (http://online.wsj.com/articles/amazons-spending-leads-to-another-loss-1414095239)
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No it isn't!
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Isn't available or isn't similar?
I couldn't read article at all so had to google.
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It's behind another paywall and requires you to register..
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Can I suggest that people buy books from their local bookshop?
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It's behind another paywall and requires you to register..
Ah, OK. It didn't do that first time I read the article, but there is one up now? Sorry.
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Like the 3 books I've ordered which aren't available at your local bookshop. Why don't we all eat berries picked off trees on our lanes?
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We don't all live down lanes like you country boy. And when Tetler browsed his way to the pub he always ended up with a bad pint. Is this relevant?
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Like the 3 books I've ordered which aren't available at your local bookshop. Why don't we all eat berries picked off trees on our lanes?
because you can't get club card points / milk your cow at the same point.
<right off to spin some linen harvested from the flax growing by the side of the tram track>
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Chris - you can register and get several free articles per month.
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Like the 3 books I've ordered which aren't available at your local bookshop. Why don't we all eat berries picked off trees on our lanes?
You could always order them from your local book shop?
Though having pointed that out I would just click and buy....
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Chris - you can register and get several free articles per month.
That link redirects me to a request to download the app (which I already have) and then I can't find the article......
Will try again.
Edit - ignore me I just needed to sign in. #retard
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there's probably some smug satisfaction to be had by encouraging people to only buy their Cockfax guides from Amazon
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Ironically I remember Alan of Rockfax making the same point a few years ago, that people should buy his new guide through normal retailers or his website as amazon basically paid them almost nothing per copy sold.
I didn't actually say this. What I said was that you should buy books from specialist retailers to encourage them to stock the books.
In fact authors and trade retailers make only a small amount less on books sold through Amazon. This smaller amount also applies to most non-outdoor shop retailers like Waterstones, etc. and also most sales outside the UK. Basically it requires a second level of distribution to get to these places and that is where the extra cut is taken but it isn't that bad, and in many cases only occurs on sales you wouldn't have got elsewhere. The problem with Amazon though is that it is so powerful that it is now taking sales away from outdoor retailers and it would be a shame, but understandable, if the outdoor retailers stopped stocking large ranges of books.
Alan
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http://www.hive.co.uk/about-us/
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Ironically I remember Alan of Rockfax making the same point a few years ago, that people should buy his new guide through normal retailers or his website as amazon basically paid them almost nothing per copy sold.
I didn't actually say this. What I said was that you should buy books from specialist retailers to encourage them to stock the books.
In fact authors and trade retailers make only a small amount less on books sold through Amazon. This smaller amount also applies to most non-outdoor shop retailers like Waterstones, etc. and also most sales outside the UK. Basically it requires a second level of distribution to get to these places and that is where the extra cut is taken but it isn't that bad, and in many cases only occurs on sales you wouldn't have got elsewhere. The problem with Amazon though is that it is so powerful that it is now taking sales away from outdoor retailers and it would be a shame, but understandable, if the outdoor retailers stopped stocking large ranges of books.
Alan
Absolutely, I agree, indeed I remember this in a Spanish guide.
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Can't we zap Alan's posts just once to show him what it's like to cool his opinion from the debate? Aww, please?!
He's correct though. I don't lose out by Amazon selling the NW Lime guide for a lower price. Somebody does, but it isn't me/the bolt-fund. There's obviously loss-leading going on with lots of products on Amazon and they're making a calculated risk that it will pay off for them in the mid term, once they're one of the few games left in town.
It would be a shame not to be able to go into a climbing store and browse the bookshelves. One of my favorite things about going to beris is sitting in v12 with a print guide and idly browsing the world of climbing. Wonder how long that pleasure will last...
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You don't lose out on profit made on Amazon sales vs normal retailers, but of course you are also likely to get fewer direct sales if your book is listed on Amazon at a ridiculously reduced price.
An example of the strange way the market now works - before the lancs bouldering guidebooks were even released, a bookseller was listing 2nd hand copies on amazon. Presumably this was an automated process, with algorithms working to maximise the booksellers potential profits by using every option available.