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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Eddies on June 19, 2013, 12:28:10 pm

Title: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Eddies on June 19, 2013, 12:28:10 pm
I just read about this chaps recent redpoint of 'Pata Negra' 8c in Rodellar.

He details his training in his blog here: http://bendavison.wordpress.com/category/training/ (http://bendavison.wordpress.com/category/training/)

Nothing revolutionary in terms of training methods but its definately worth a read through.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Luke Owens on June 19, 2013, 12:37:49 pm
I just read about this chaps recent redpoint of 'Pata Negra' 8c in Rodellar.

He details his training in his blog here: http://bendavison.wordpress.com/category/training/ (http://bendavison.wordpress.com/category/training/)

Nothing revolutionary in terms of training methods but its definately worth a read through.

Very impressive, I read through his training blog earlier and i'm suprised at how "basic" his training is for someone who climbs such high grades.

Nothing to fancy just trying hard and to the point.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: gme on June 19, 2013, 02:20:57 pm
It might not quite come over in his blog but Ben trains really hard, and puts 100% effort into every session. He comes from a reasonably high standard triathlon background so whilst not having climbed that long he  knows how to train.

However the training he does is pretty basic as, having only climbed for a few years, basic stuff is all that he needs to do. He is on a gap year at the minute and whilst he wanted to do something hardish, he has been more focused on mileage and learning to climb, which is where most people fall down these days.

I find all the structured, written down, technical training odd for people who are not operating at a high level (>8c .8A) when just doing loads of climbing will have more benefit. People where doing hard stuff of this grade years ago by just climbing and having climbed and trained with some of our top climbers for years i really cant remember seeing any of them being as strict and organised as some of the average 7a climbers these days.

Going to the wall with your SAS style weight vest on, diary in hand and stop watch round your neck because the top lads/lasses are doing it will not get you stronger if you neglect the fact that they have actually been out climbing all day and the funky core/ hanging/lock off stuff they are doing is purely supplementary.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: andy_e on June 19, 2013, 02:31:08 pm
Absolutely, plus training is really boring. Just climb, it's loads more fun too.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: masonwoods101 on June 19, 2013, 02:54:09 pm
 :agree: although it does seen that the training is cool at the moment
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Stubbs on June 19, 2013, 03:19:14 pm
I'd have to disagree GME: few people were climbing >8A or 8c years ago, and most of those that were could be said to be those with natural talent where climbing was enough for them to get better.  There was also the dole culture which allowed people to climb loads.  Nowadays your average 7A punter is using the knowledge gleaned from the standardisation of training for climbing to use their limited time effectively.  I guess a lot of climbers are now relativity cash rich and time poor so spending a bit of cash to get a plan off a coach which can lead to improvements can be seen as a good investment.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: scottygillery on June 19, 2013, 03:24:09 pm
clearly the lad is quite good but he's not doing any deadlifting. That's going to start to hold him back sooner or later (i predict sooner). Then he's gonna wish he'd been deadlifting all along. 3 years is quick to climb 8c, but that's hell of a lot of deadlifting to catch up on.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Wood FT on June 19, 2013, 03:31:14 pm
I'd have to disagree GME: few people were climbing >8A or 8c years ago, and most of those that were could be said to be those with natural talent where climbing was enough for them to get better.  There was also the dole culture which allowed people to climb loads.  Nowadays your average 7A punter is using the knowledge gleaned from the standardisation of training for climbing to use their limited time effectively.  I guess a lot of climbers are now relativity cash rich and time poor so spending a bit of cash to get a plan off a coach which can lead to improvements can be seen as a good investment.

what he said
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: gme on June 19, 2013, 03:40:47 pm
Stubbs- i am afraid we will continue to disagree. If you are time poor/cash rich surely the little time you have would be miles better spent climbing. I am not denying that the other stuff will help but if you don't climb you wont improve at climbing. Plus a good few people did climb in the grades i am talking about, not just one or two super talented individuals and many others with little talent managed to do pretty hard things. We all did what we called training but 99% of the training was climbing.

Andi E- Ben trains, and trains a lot. I commented to him ages ago that i was amazed that he could drive himself to do circuits on the moon board at Alnwick (8ft x 12ft hot and sharp) over and over again without getting bored; he said that having spent the last 8 years swimming up and down a pool and sat on a turbo trainer there was not one single bit of climbing training that doesn't feel like a joy and pleasure to do.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Stubbs on June 19, 2013, 03:47:44 pm
gme - I'm not for one second saying that climbing doesn't have it's place in training, and I'm sure all the stopwatch and notepad brigade are doing a lot of that too (at least I hope so!) Rather that 'just going climbing' will not progress most people as fast as climbing+structured training.

As to the grades and the numbers of people, it really depends what year you are talking about I guess. I remember when there was a list of UK people who had climbed 8A on here in the early 00's and I don't think it got much past 50, these days I couldn't hazard a guess at the number - 400, 500?
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: cjsheps on June 19, 2013, 03:50:51 pm
I climbed with Ben a fair bit last summer in Ceuse, and I can affirm that he hasn't found any magic potion to get good quickly. However, what struck me was that he's probably the most methodical person I've ever met - he has a plan for most things he does, and is very pragmatic. Also, he seems driven as hell.

Just goes to show that most people know all they need to know in order to make this type of progress, but just need to apply themselves more and in a smarter fashion. The climbing/training debate seems irrelevant here (and will probably go on till the end of time anyway).
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: slackline on June 19, 2013, 03:55:41 pm
As to the grades and the numbers of people, it really depends what year you are talking about I guess. I remember when there was a list of UK people who had climbed 8A on here in the early 00's and I don't think it got much past 50, these days I couldn't hazard a guess at the number - 400, 500?

Participation has vastly increased too though, what do the numbers who have climbed 8A in the early 00's and today look like as a percentage of total participants?
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Durbs on June 19, 2013, 04:14:11 pm
Just goes to show that most people know all they need to know in order to make this type of progress, but just need to apply themselves more and in a smarter fashion.

Word and  :guilty:

Regardless of if you're climbing 5-6 days a week, or training 5-6 days a week. As long as you're actually doing one of these things with any regularity you'll get markedly better.

I on the otherhand, am currently struggling to get to the plastic more than once a week, and there's dust, not chalk, on my fingerboard.
Which probably explains why after 4+ years of regular climbing I'm still stuck on 6b.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: T_B on June 19, 2013, 05:59:41 pm
Stubbs- i am afraid we will continue to disagree. If you are time poor/cash rich surely the little time you have would be miles better spent climbing. I am not denying that the other stuff will help but if you don't climb you wont improve at climbing. Plus a good few people did climb in the grades i am talking about, not just one or two super talented individuals and many others with little talent managed to do pretty hard things. We all did what we called training but 99% of the training was climbing.

Surely you mean a relative beginner who is new to climbing? If I "just climbed" in the amount of time I have thesedays (not very much), then I would be operating at a much lower level outside. It also depends on your definition of "time poor" - a lot of my climbing is in an hour at lunch, so getting outdoors wouldn't be practical anyway.

I suspect you're trying to make a more general point about folk training really scientifically when they haven't actually learnt to use their feet yet!
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Doylo on June 19, 2013, 06:02:12 pm
I think there's a few more Brits climbing 8c/+ now than in Gavs day but not that many more! There's obviously a lot more people bouldering harder but that's natural as the numbers bouldering have increased considerably. 8c in 3 years in good by any standard I'd say. Climbing will always be more important than training but those who can fit training in around plenty of days out will get the biggest gains I think. I don't train much as I like to feel fresh on my rock days but I'm sure this holds me back.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: krymson on June 19, 2013, 06:59:12 pm
clearly the lad is quite good but he's not doing any deadlifting. That's going to start to hold him back sooner or later (i predict sooner). Then he's gonna wish he'd been deadlifting all along. 3 years is quick to climb 8c, but that's hell of a lot of deadlifting to catch up on.

 :clap2:
Title: Re: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Jaspersharpe on June 19, 2013, 08:12:46 pm
We all did what we called training but 99% of the training was climbing.


I suspect you're trying to make a more general point about folk training really scientifically when they haven't actually learnt to use their feet yet!

Yeah I took this to be Gav's point and I agree.

Seeing sub 7B/pretty new to climbing boulderers doing structured training on the beastmaker/campus board (with notebook etc) when they have an entire bouldering wall to climb on seems insane to me.

Despite having quite a bit of actual climbing experience, after a layoff I still notice (massively) the difference between managing to get some strength back on the fingerboard and actually getting half decent at climbing anything..... by climbing stuff.

Having time to get out and climb actual rock is another story and not necessarily the point here.

Title: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: tomtom on June 19, 2013, 08:17:32 pm
for my 0.02, I think the biggest difference between then and now is media. 25 years ago there were no training videos, no internet, no online beta. If you were lucky, some old fella with a rolly would grunt 'stick yer toe there yoof and pull ard..' Now you can find out how to do problems - learn crazy and different ways of doing problems (that were crazy 25 yrs ago) - really easily. I think this makes learning how to climb hard things much much faster.

Getting back to training vs climbing... I'm having my best year ever - and as it says on my power club posts I've been outdoors 40+ times, and trained once or twice..
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Falling Down on June 19, 2013, 08:26:36 pm
I'm going to blow Gav's trumpet for him here.  He took Ben under his wing three years ago and invested a lot of personal time to take him out climbing and "coached" him a lot.  He said to me at the time he's never met a more naturally talented climber with so much ability at a young age and that he would do some big numbers very quickly.  No doubt the years in Triathlon training and a sport obsessed family have made a massive difference.

Hats off to Ben and Gav.

TomTom, just seen your post.  Ironically, I think that's pretty much what Gav did but out at the crag and on the boards but it was more like  "I knacked me finger pulling too hard, just get some mileage in"
Title: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: tomtom on June 19, 2013, 08:28:59 pm
yes - you reminded me FD - I was prattling on tangentically.. well done Ben! Great stuff!
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: kelvin on June 19, 2013, 08:37:40 pm
Always enjoy your Power Club stuff Tom, as you're always out and about in a way I can't be, living in Northampton is a killer for rock climbing during the week. I've been lucky myself this year in that, my mates have dragged me here there and everywhere and the club has a cottage in Capel Curig - I'm not getting much better grade wise but I am serving a proper apprenticeship on different rock and I'm certain that will pay of next year. Footwork seems to be everything and it's hard/impossible to learn that indoors IME.

I will say, I'm a sub 6b/fairly newish climber but I do do some work on the fingerboards and campus rails. That's down to a badly mashed right forearm tho that just doesn't hold onto strength and it's usually done after a session climbing. I find it massively beneficial and when I've tried just climbing, I've not made anything like the same gains.

Seems like that Ben dude has got it just about right and his work ethic is paying off. I was in the Alps last year and climbing with a couple of uberwads and all their advice consisted of was "try harder" and that seems to be his motto too.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: abarro81 on June 19, 2013, 09:06:40 pm
I think there's a few more Brits climbing 8c/+ now than in Gavs day but not that many more!

I have no idea how many there were back in the day, but I totted up the ascents I could think of at 8c and up by brits this year and came to 19 ascents by 11 climbers... In case anyone finds that interesting
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: mrjonathanr on June 19, 2013, 09:11:05 pm
I agree with Gav's main point- the fussing over precise training methodologies is to squeeze progress out of those who have already progressed a lot. I think it's hindering not helping more average/less experienced climbers who have more to gain just getting out and pulling hard -lots. Dave Mac says similar things I think.

The point about media is a no brainer. Role models. People try to emulate the heroes of the day - but often in a simplistic way.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: miso soup on June 19, 2013, 09:16:57 pm


I have no idea how many there were back in the day, but I totted up the ascents I could think of at 8c and up by brits this year and came to 19 ascents by 11 climbers... In case anyone finds that interesting

I do find that interesting.  Anyone care to take a stab at number of people in the UK bouldering 8A and up?  Do people really consider 7B to be average punter level now?
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Doylo on June 19, 2013, 09:21:53 pm
I think there's a few more Brits climbing 8c/+ now than in Gavs day but not that many more!

I have no idea how many there were back in the day, but I totted up the ascents I could think of at 8c and up by brits this year and came to 19 ascents by 11 climbers... In case anyone finds that interesting

By now I actually meant the last couple of years  :ras:
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: tomtom on June 19, 2013, 09:22:08 pm


I have no idea how many there were back in the day, but I totted up the ascents I could think of at 8c and up by brits this year and came to 19 ascents by 11 climbers... In case anyone finds that interesting

I do find that interesting.  Anyone care to take a stab at number of people in the UK bouldering 8A and up?  Do people really consider 7B to be average punter level now?

Thats a very interesting question that I'm going to try and answer with a poll.... watch this (or near) space..

Edit: Poll here: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,22541.0.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,22541.0.html)
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Three Nine on June 19, 2013, 09:50:26 pm
I think there's a few more Brits climbing 8c/+ now than in Gavs day but not that many more!

I have no idea how many there were back in the day, but I totted up the ascents I could think of at 8c and up by brits this year and came to 19 ascents by 11 climbers... In case anyone finds that interesting


You only do that so you can feel smug about being in that elite 11 you sad cunt.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Jaspersharpe on June 19, 2013, 10:06:31 pm
The average grade of boulderers has reduced massively in recent years and will continue to. Simple maths as the subdivision of the sport used to be the preserve of the elite but is now becoming more and more popular.

7B as an average punters grade is a fucking joke. More like 5.

Don't take my word though, ask someone who owns a large popular bouldering wall who their average customer is?

Oh and a poll on here isn't going to help (sorry Tom) as 90% of your average grade punters (and Chris Craggs) won't see it.

It's a bit like the election poll where the Lib Dems would have romped to victory based on ukb votes.

You're discounting the majority so it's nonsense.
Title: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: tomtom on June 19, 2013, 10:43:34 pm
:) yeah yeah yeah...

Sherioushly though it will give us an idea of how hard people on here climb..

I've always wondered what percentage of folk have done an 8..
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: douglas on June 19, 2013, 11:10:58 pm
Can anyone name a sport where the consensus is that to become better than most it is necessary only to partake in the sport with volume and without structure? I suspect not. But that is what I'm hearing here. It doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: abarro81 on June 19, 2013, 11:25:21 pm
Off the top of my head, the obvious potential candidates would be things like surfing, mountain biking etc. where there's a large skill aspect which it's more awkward to 'drill' than sports with more 'set'/repetitive motions (e.g. swimming), and where the 'arena' is non-standardised. However I don't know anything about how those guys train...

P.s. I wasn't trying to call you out on anything Doyle, just your post reminded me that I'd done that adding up the other day and I figured people might find it interesting to put a number on some of this stuff. I suspect I've missed a couple of ascents but doubt it's that many.

P.P.S. Scotty Gillery wins post of the year  :clap2:
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: krymson on June 20, 2013, 02:53:03 am
Off the top of my head, the obvious potential candidates would be things like surfing, mountain biking etc. where there's a large skill aspect which it's more awkward to 'drill' than sports with more 'set'/repetitive motions (e.g. swimming), and where the 'arena' is non-standardised. However I don't know anything about how those guys train...


There are drills! And they dont have to be awkward. Check out Self Coached Climber. Helped me loads.

The top female climber in my country was coached when she first started climbing. Her "fundamentals" are solid as anything - great movement, great routereading and decisionmaking ... if you have the patience to read some books or have access to a knowledgable climber/coach there are things you can do to improve quicker/faster than "just climb"ing, even as a total beginner

Also, the advice to keep away from the fingerboard until you are at point X i feel is a bit misguided. There's nothing wrong with getting stronger in fingers or body- as long as you can keep perspective and realize it is just part of the bigger picture.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: ianv on June 20, 2013, 08:59:43 am
Quote
Off the top of my head, the obvious potential candidates would be things like surfing, mountain biking etc. where there's a large skill aspect which it's more awkward to 'drill' than sports with more 'set'/repetitive motions (e.g. swimming), and where the 'arena' is non-standardised. However I don't know anything about how those guys train...

The top downhillers spend a lot of time in the gym. Upper body strength is really important.

It seems to me that just because someone got good by doing X doesn't mean its the only way to do it. The lad is obviously a talent so he would probably have got to the same point by doing Y.  Likewise, the people that train systematically but are not that good are equally likely to have been not that good by just climbing.

There are different ways to skin a cat, Yuji got good by climbing yet without his campus board Gillich would have been crap (I have witnessed his footwork!).

Personally, I think training off rock can create big improvements if used correctly.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: gme on June 20, 2013, 09:34:08 am
A hot topic! All from a little news comment.

I think what i was trying to say has been lost. I am not saying training is bad but that none climbing movement training is being used too much as a primary method rather than a supplementary.

Ben does train and he trains really hard in a focused manner, but all of the training he has done has been climbing based. Yes he has done a bit of beastmaker stuff and stretching (after years of swimming, running and cycling his flexibility was shit) but always as a supplementary form of training usually before or after climbing. He has never gone training at the wall if the opportunity to get outside was present even on days where the weather was shit.

All this, i feel has allowed him to progress so quickly and if he had gone down the route i see a lot of people at the wall following i have no doubt he would be very very strong and very very fit but i don't think he would have climbed anywhere near as well as he has. The gym goers mentality that is appearing at the walls, rather than the old climb as much as you can ideas, will hold people new to climbing back.


Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: quiffhanger on June 20, 2013, 10:42:18 am
I find all the structured, written down, technical training odd for people who are not operating at a high level (>8c .8A) when just doing loads of climbing will have more benefit. People where doing hard stuff of this grade years ago by just climbing and having climbed and trained with some of our top climbers for years i really cant remember seeing any of them being as strict and organised as some of the average 7a climbers these days.

Also beg to differ. Surely the distinction isn't how hard you climb but a) If you are still seeing improvements through just climbing & b) If you are able to spend the time available on real rock.

By your standards I'm a total punter who should just climb more. However I get outside as much as I can (weekends) and after "just climbing" when indoors for 10+ years I realised I wasn't getting any better. So, bar major lifestyle changes which would allow me to massively increase the time available for real climbing, maximizing efficiency through structure training seemed like the only option.

I think it works: ok E6/8a/7B is very far from cutting edge but I doubt many people manage it "just climbing" ~6 hours indoors midweek & getting out @ weekends.

In summary training allows the most committed to push standards OR the time-poor like myself to perform at a reasonable standard with a sh1tload less effort.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: gme on June 20, 2013, 11:48:55 am
quiffhanger- i think we are confusing structured training with type of training. Structure is important ie don't just do to the wall and do a bit of this and a bit of that. Focus on one thing at the wall and dont be distracted. But at all but the highest levels that focus should be on climbing and not all the peripheral stuff like campusing, core, fingerboards.

If your weak on steep fingery stuff, boulder on a steep fingery board, if your crap at slabs, do slabs. etc etc. 1. it works and 2. its miles more fun than hanging off a piece of wood.

As an aside i am at this moment doing some deadhangs and campus stuff but the only reason i am doing this is i got board of the climbing wall, i can do it at home and i fancy seeing how good i can get at hanging of blocks of wood and one armers. Reason- i have no time at all to go outside so dont even think about it. Keeps me fit and strong, much like going to the gym, but more fun.

I am getting stronger at these exercises but i suspect if i go outside to boulder i will climb like a cock.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: andy_e on June 20, 2013, 12:01:43 pm
I think it works: ok E6/8a/7B is very far from cutting edge but I doubt many people manage it "just climbing" ~6 hours indoors midweek & getting out @ weekends.

What nonsense, I know tens of cases of people "just climbing" and reaching 7B (and above, up to 8B) without training, myself included.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: quiffhanger on June 20, 2013, 12:19:48 pm
I think it works: ok E6/8a/7B is very far from cutting edge but I doubt many people manage it "just climbing" ~6 hours indoors midweek & getting out @ weekends.

What nonsense, I know tens of cases of people "just climbing" and reaching 7B (and above, up to 8B) without training, myself included.

Fair play. I've always suspected I'm genetically pre-disposed to climbing mediocrity  :doubt:

More seriously, do many people really manage to get to 8B with less than 6 hours training per week and getting out at weekends? That would be depressing, although I am trying to juggle many balls as also keen for trad/sport this seems completely unobtainable for me without spending serious amounts more time, or moving to Font.

-ross
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Eddies on June 20, 2013, 12:20:47 pm
Wow... it dosent take much to get a rant going!
I posted Bens trianing blog because I was suprised to see someone as good as Ben posting details of their training routines.

'gme' says Ben is on a gap year so it would be interesting to know how much of those routines get done per week/month and whether any of it is routine at all or just there to fill the periods of bad weather he's been having.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: quiffhanger on June 20, 2013, 12:28:08 pm
If your weak on steep fingery stuff, boulder on a steep fingery board, if your crap at slabs, do slabs. etc etc. 1. it works and 2. its miles more fun than hanging off a piece of wood.

I agree, circumstances permitting, but my local wall doesn't have a steep board (I know!) but does have a campus board... And I have a fingerboard in my bedroom which saves me 40mins of faff getting to and from the wall. And I can do my washing/tidying/chores between sets (although that does leave everything covered in chalk).

I think my general point is, sure climbing is better for most people but there are many valid circumstances where punters like myself have a good reason to use pragmatic alternatives.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Stubbs on June 20, 2013, 12:34:01 pm
What nonsense, I know tens of cases of people "just climbing" and reaching 7B (and above, up to 8B) without training, myself included.

Pretty sure I've seen you on both fingerboard and campus board Andi ;)

Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: andy_e on June 20, 2013, 12:35:34 pm
Possibly, although if you'd watched you'd probably realise I wasn't doing it with any structure and I only ever go up to fingerboards to try one-armers.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: gme on June 20, 2013, 01:14:38 pm
'gme' says Ben is on a gap year so it would be interesting to know how much of those routines get done per week/month and whether any of it is routine at all or just there to fill the periods of bad weather he's been having.
[/quote]

If you read his blog you will see that in the last 6 months he has done no structured training for endurance at all, hes just climbed 100s of routes of all grades. He spent Jan/ Feb bouldering both indoors and out then did a pretty physical job for 6-7 weeks to raise the cash for his trip and only really climbed at weekends. Started his trip with F**k all stamina but reasonably strong and built on it from there with mileage.

A bit old school to some, and he has the benefit of being able to go on an extended trip, but it seems to have worked.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: fatdoc on June 20, 2013, 02:22:27 pm
gme - I'm not for one second saying that climbing doesn't have it's place in training, and I'm sure all the stopwatch and notepad brigade are doing a lot of that too (at least I hope so!) Rather that 'just going climbing' will not progress most people as fast as climbing+structured training.

As to the grades and the numbers of people, it really depends what year you are talking about I guess. I remember when there was a list of UK people who had climbed 8A on here in the early 00's and I don't think it got much past 50, these days I couldn't hazard a guess at the number - 400, 500?

I'm with gme on this one.

Much past 50?

You must be joking??? Nearer 250 plus.

Bet I could name 50 straight off!!!

Yes, there was a lot of training then... But it near all was climbing in some form or another, with hangs coming into fashion when I stopped training for routes ( 14 years ago )

Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Stubbs on June 20, 2013, 02:53:19 pm
Fatdoc: for the sake of reference I found the thread (a lot easier with the google search bar!) it looks to have got to around 100 in 2005. http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,3686.0.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,3686.0.html)

As this list was completed later than I thought I reckon ~50 wouldn't be far off for the early 2000's, but that point is moot.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: tomtom on June 20, 2013, 02:56:37 pm
Fatdoc: for the sake of reference I found the thread (a lot easier with the google search bar!) it looks to have got to around 100 in 2005. http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,3686.0.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,3686.0.html)

As this list was completed later than I thought I reckon ~50 wouldn't be far off for the early 2000's, but that point is moot.

Interesting - as the poll is for those who are actively capable of climbing 8A - rather than those who have done it.. at the moment its 16 from c.130...
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: biscuit on June 20, 2013, 02:58:49 pm

All this, i feel has allowed him to progress so quickly and if he had gone down the route i see a lot of people at the wall following i have no doubt he would be very very strong and very very fit but i don't think he would have climbed anywhere near as well as he has. The gym goers mentality that is appearing at the walls, rather than the old climb as much as you can ideas, will hold people new to climbing back.

+1

You can be as string as you like but if you can't climb you're going to waste it. Climbing is always best.
As mentioned climbing can be training. You are crap at steep routes then climb lots of steep routes. It's climbing but it's training too. Much better than going on a 45 board and deciding whether to use toe hooks or heel hooks or not and if it's alright to do a drop knee cos your supposed to be training front on.

Outside on rock learning the movement associated with climbing, whilst getting stronger and tackling weaknesses ( if you want ) = best.

Inside on a wooden board in my garage because i can't get out as much as i want = not best but better than nothing

Inside on a wooden board because i am an elite climber needing to bust through a plateau = best for them.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: a dense loner on June 20, 2013, 03:14:01 pm
I have no idea about all this training nonsense. All I will say is I let Ben climb with me on the 45 at the works just before his trip and he looked too much like Adam Lincoln for my liking
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Doylo on June 20, 2013, 03:22:15 pm
Was he orange and wearing shades? :-\
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: andy_e on June 20, 2013, 03:24:56 pm
He arrived in an Audi TT?
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: gme on June 20, 2013, 03:36:09 pm
 Dense- All I will say is I let Ben climb with me on the 45 at the works

Surely this has been overlooked as a high point in the lads achievements so far. How can we change the thread title to " Ben Davison- Climbs with Dense on the works 45 in three years"
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: rich d on June 20, 2013, 03:42:13 pm
gme:
 Dense- All I will say is I let Ben climb with me on the 45 at the works

Surely this has been overlooked as a high point in the lads achievements so far. How can we change the thread title to " Ben Davison- Allowed to climb with Dense on the works 45 in three years"
Corrected that for you.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: a dense loner on June 20, 2013, 03:55:36 pm
Exactly, I thought the climbing media at large should know. Good work shouldn't go unrewarded
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: SA Chris on June 20, 2013, 04:45:07 pm
You can be as string as you like but if you can't climb you're going to waste it.

I'm nowhere near as string as I'd like to be.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: fatdoc on June 20, 2013, 11:12:42 pm
Sorry, I may have misunderstood..

For clarity..

By the time we hit the early 00s I reckon I could list up to 100  UK climbers that have done French 8a route grade... So there would be loads more.

Us old Gits never used 8a.nu and stuff back in th day..



Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: saltbeef on June 20, 2013, 11:27:46 pm
stubbs meant font 8a
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: fatdoc on June 20, 2013, 11:32:32 pm
Ahhh

My bad...
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Doylo on June 20, 2013, 11:44:05 pm
 See if we used V grades this never would have happened  :jab:  :)
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Duma on June 21, 2013, 12:06:26 am
CAPITAL=boulder
lowercase=route
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: a dense loner on June 21, 2013, 12:34:17 am
Bouldering site = boulder

Routes are in the fetish section
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: lagerstarfish on June 21, 2013, 07:36:59 am
I have no idea about all this training nonsense. All I will say is I let Ben climb with me on the 45 at the works whilst I sat down and drank coffee just before his trip and he looked too much like Adam Lincoln for my liking
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: a dense loner on June 21, 2013, 11:22:01 am
See how quickly a thread sucking Ben off turns to taunting another guy about coffee, bonkers.

I did think this guy could do something good if it had huge holds on it ;)
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: SEDur on June 21, 2013, 12:11:50 pm
First off, big respect for Ben Davison!
An awesome effort in all respects. I hope I can get into the 8s by the third year (not long to go though).

I would like to draw your attention to Jerry's auto-biography.
The 'old-skool' generation trained like dogs through the 8s in sport.
It is important to remember exactly what you consider training to be. Structured routes/movement can still be considered training.
They had also generally climbed the harder end of trad for years and years.
NSFW  :
I think it is important to remember that Mr.Davison has been training hard in a very physical (conglomerate of) sport(s) through the most important growth years.
It is still possible that he can fulfil closer to his natural potential, as he is still only 19; compared to someone like me who started when they were 22 or later.

I am sure that the hours he has put in the 'gym' and on the rock, have not only been much more than joe average with an office job; but have all been used wisely and effectively to not only train strength, but simultaneously train how to climb. Everyone seems to forget that training on a moon board, is still training the body the learn movement. Said movement may be on wood or plastic, but the body will still learn from it. The transfer of skills to rock is still a largely psychological effort, and of course partially physical as well.

I think zippy said it best the other day; when we were talking about how training on rock is the best training (if available). There you get strong, and you learn on the medium of which you mean to improve. Yes, it is really hard to do. But you will learn to use the rock, to move on the rock and to get strong. A lot of it is not only 'getting strong', but teaching your concious, subconscious mind and nervous system how to behave and react on rock and under pressure. Proof? Find me a wad who has done nothing but bench press and finger board, then stick him on action direct.

NSFW  :
I think it is also worth remembering the video of the Chinese climber that surfaced last year, who i seem to remember managed 8c in 2 years? Not to downgrade Ben's accomplishment, he is still far more successful then most people i know and most definitely myself.
China Climb, 8c, by Da Wei on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/51342181)
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: gme on June 21, 2013, 07:11:46 pm
Do you not contradict your self by saying a lot of bens rapid improvement can be put down to his prior sporting achievements then stating that someone who bench pressed and deadhung for years couldn't get good at climbing quickly? 
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: SEDur on June 21, 2013, 08:59:58 pm
Do you not contradict your self by saying a lot of bens rapid improvement can be put down to his prior sporting achievements then stating that someone who bench pressed and deadhung for years couldn't get good at climbing quickly? 

I wasn't implying his success is directly caused by his previous work, merely that it would be a great foundation upon which to build.
I was also stating that someone who ONLY does bench-presses and deadhangs i.e. doesn't spend any time doing movement (the key word) will struggle to improve as quickly.

For example; within his blog post about training, Ben does include movement in the power section.

The point I was trying to make was how beneficial training via movement can be. Even in Feehaley's latest interview on UKC, when asked about how much training he does he says; 'It depends what you would class as training and what is just climbing'. That in itself would imply that a distinction needs to be made between climbing for climbing and climbing for intended benefits, to answer the question.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Stubbs on June 22, 2013, 12:06:23 am

I was also stating that someone who ONLY does bench-presses and deadhangs i.e. doesn't spend any time doing movement (the key word) will struggle to improve as quickly.



Would this count as a strawman then, as this clearly doesn't happen with anyone's training.
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: a dense loner on June 22, 2013, 01:00:11 pm
Strawman?
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: Duma on June 22, 2013, 01:33:45 pm
strawman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)
"...a type of argument based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: shark on June 22, 2013, 01:57:39 pm
strawman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)
"...a  type of climber with arms and legs like straw and weighing significantly less than an adult human being who makes a mockery of grading systems based on the average climber. To "attack a straw man" is not hard (or fair) as they are not built for fighting."
Title: Re: Ben Davison - f8c in three years!
Post by: SEDur on June 23, 2013, 12:41:09 pm
strawman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)
"...a  type of climber with arms and legs like straw and weighing significantly less than an adult human being who makes a mockery of grading systems based on the average climber. To "attack a straw man" is not hard (or fair) as they are not built for fighting."

Yeah, that sounds like me. Weak as a kitten with legs and arms of straw.
I need to do Ben's training program for a few years (genuinely).
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