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the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: Will Hunt on January 29, 2013, 01:03:36 pm
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Moving on with one of my aims for 2013, we've had an offer accepted for a house and I'm keen to move the purchasing process on as quick as possible. We now need to appoint a solicitor and settle on a mortgage provider. I'm quite happy with the shopping around for providors but not really sure what to do about getting a solicitor. Are they all much of a muchness? I don't want to get shafted! The estate agent has one who they recommend, do the recommended ones usually do a decent job?
Any advice on getting the process done in a pain free manner would be great. And any recommendations of solicitors in the Bingley area would be fab!
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Definitely go on personal recommendations for good ones or onjes to avoid in the area, I know some friends who live in Shipley may be able to recommend, if you want?
Once you have a shortlist (half a dozen or so) I would ask them for an quote of estimated of costs based on the offered price. The good ones should be able to do this for you, avoid ones that won't. (we discarded one at this point as they could even do the maths on the estimate right!) Then do a comparison of costs.
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Moving on with one of my aims for 2013, we've had an offer accepted for a house and I'm keen to move the purchasing process on as quick as possible. We now need to appoint a solicitor and settle on a mortgage provider. I'm quite happy with the shopping around for providors but not really sure what to do about getting a solicitor. Are they all much of a muchness? I don't want to get shafted! The estate agent has one who they recommend, do the recommended ones usually do a decent job?
Any advice on getting the process done in a pain free manner would be great. And any recommendations of solicitors in the Bingley area would be fab!
No reccomendations - ask people at work etc.. someone local rather than a national are usually better (they know local issues better - e.g. foibles on houses in that area..). Key think is to keep nagging the solicitor. Most seem to operate on the policy of having a large pile of clients files on the desk at once, and the ones at the top are those who nag most often..
Regarding surveys, I would consider getting the most basic survey that the mortgage provider requires - but then spend £3-400 on an engineers report (instead of the full wack on a full survey). I did both for my house in Hull (where there were 'settlement' issues) and the local engineers report was top notch, to the point, very detailed - and the full blow survey full of vague statements.. which basically mean we dont know get somone else to look at it. (this is just my view - others may feel very different)
Be prepared to write lots of large cheques, and seem to throw away large amounts of money - but remember its all worth it.
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first off, you're being shafted by having them do all the 'checks'. What you mean is 'I don't want to get 'too shafted'.
My advice from limited experience:
1-It's worth considering that some some mortgage lenders (nattionwide for example) insist of certain conveyancing solicitors.
2-They don't have to be local. If your mate at home had a good experience, use them, eve though they're not in Yorshire. I'm selling (crossed fingers) my house in Birmingham, from Leeds, with a Solicitor near Bambury, Oxfordshire. I've used them before and they're good. They were recommended to me (Sprat Endicott).
3-It ain't a done deal until you've got the keys
Good luck. I bet you're dead excited. Let me know if you need a lift. I imagine you'll end up doing 74 million trips in your spacious ride. Hope you can find someone who'll rent a youth a van for the day!
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2-They don't have to be local. If your mate at home had a good experience, use them, eve though they're not in Yorshire. I'm selling (crossed fingers) my house in Birmingham, from Leeds, with a Solicitor near Bambury, Oxfordshire. I've used them before and they're good. They were recommended to me (Sprat Endicott).
I'm the opposite, I'd be wary of nationals... Both times I've bought and sold, local solicitors have been invaluable in
1. Knowing the vendors local solicitor - and knowing all the tricks they tried to do and saving me a few quid and some time..
2. Understanding certain local legal peculiarities (here in Hull it was to do with tenfoots and alley way access)
3. Appreciating the local context - examples include a. subsidence here in Hull (which is widespread here and accepted and fine but causes all sorts of issues with national solicitors who think its the end of the world), b. my house in West Wales had a septic tank and a private water supply - all of which were perfectly normal things in the country, but very odd to the national solicitors (bedford based) working for the buyers..
Depends on what type of property you're buying of course.. Much of this is different for a 10-20yr old property than something older and more finicky..
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Got reply from mate - he used Hamiltons in Leeds as they are close to where he works, and he was selling in Bramley - "No issues with them, but were probably not the cheapest".
I would go for local too, better to deal with someone you can see personally and stop in if you have to sign any paperwork rather than have to do all correspondence by post, phone and email.
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Take a look on Moneysavingexpert, they have some good advice regarding the basic do's and don't s. Generally solicitors recommended by mortgage companies aren't going to be the best deal.
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We used Joanna Dennett as Ison Harrison in Leeds on a friend's recommendation, and can happily recommend. Very professional and timely, in marked contrast to another solicitor we used on a previous sale that fell through- they took ages to respond to queries. This was compounded by the fact that the vendor's solicitor also appeared to be very slow (although don't know how much of this was our solicitor passing the buck!). With more timely legal work, the first sale almost certainly wouldn't have fallen through, but we got a nicer house anyway! Not sure you can do much about the vendor's solicitor though...
At the end of the day, it's personal choice, but I would happily spend a bit more if it increased the chances of the sale happening, it's enough of a pain in the arse as it is!
Good luck!
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When I bought a house a few years ago I just went online, googles cheap solicitors, picked the cheapest one and went with them. Had no problems at all, although I accept this may be a rarity! However they were based in Leeds. Can't remember the name but I'll try and find out...
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Thanks for the info so far all. From what's been said I imagine we'll look locally. Any names that you can recommend are most welcome and if there's anymore advice out there then let us have it.
Andy, I have no intention of fitting the contents of our house into the "spacious ride". A van rental will be needed I think!
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When I bought a house a few years ago I just went online, googles cheap solicitors, picked the cheapest one and went with them. Had no problems at all, although I accept this may be a rarity! However they were based in Leeds. Can't remember the name but I'll try and find out...
You could try search your search history from that time period (http://www.google.com/psearch)
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Will buying a house. Next it'll be Andi E having kids.... (Where's that old man with a cane again?)
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Be aware that once you have gone with a particular solicitor you cannot hire another to do the work if you are dissatisfied. In simple conveyancing that's no issue, but if problems do develop for any reason you want someone switched on who will fight your corner.
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So, to summarise...house moving beta...
Reach out to the close, but not closest solicitor. You'll know which one because it feels right. Remember that this is an irreversible move. Now you've committed to a dynamic move for the new house. Your solicitor will check that the top is not likely to be flooded, at a price. As you top out make little urges back and forth to try and get comfortable (if you can do a big move in one go, it will be quicker and easier but might be difficult for an under 25). Knee pads will help. Don't fluff the top move or it's a long way back up.
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Andi E having kids...
:lol: Got at least three years before that...
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When I bought mine two years ago I used Diane Walker at Armitage sykes based on halifax road hudds. They came recommended off of a few people I worked with and my estate agent.
They were really good and fast too.
However might be a bit of a trek from far side of Bradford.
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Andi E having kids...
:lol: Got at least three years before that...
And i thought elephants had the longest gestation period. Is there a spread sheet of projected outcomes or are these just goals?
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Andi E having kids...
:lol: Got at least three years before that...
And i thought elephants had the longest gestation period. Is there a spread sheet of projected outcomes or are these just goals?
How far do they have to swim Andy_E? ;)
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Only a tiny distance but they're all lazy.
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Had an offer on a house accepted this week. Still debating whether to go ahead with it or not but probably need to start looking at mortgages, solicitors and surveys.
1) What's the thinking these days about going through a mortgage broker vs comparison websites and going direct to the bank? Do brokers save a lot of hassle and secure better deals? Would probably be looking at the smallest possible mortage that allows us to make use of Help to Buy ISA / LISA and then borrow the rest from family if that makes any difference.
2) Any recommendations of solicitors or surveyors in the Shipley/Saltaire area?
Also, I know prices have gone silly recently but we think we might have offered a bit too much. They accepted asking price but another very similar house in the same street went for £20k less just a month ago (we only found this out after putting the offer in). When would be a good time to start trying to get the price down? The vendors are probably in more of a rush to move than we would be as the stamp duty holiday is irrelevant for us.
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1) What's the thinking these days about going through a mortgage broker vs comparison websites and going direct to the bank? Do brokers save a lot of hassle and secure better deals? Would probably be looking at the smallest possible mortage that allows us to make use of Help to Buy ISA / LISA and then borrow the rest from family if that makes any difference.
We went through a mortgage broker and they were ace, really helpful in laying out different options and then did a load of the initial leg work in applying for the mortgage, talking to solicitors + estate agents etc. I imagine it depends a lot on the particular broker though (I can put you in touch with the lady we used if you'd like.)
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We went through a mortgage broker and they were ace (I can put you in touch with the lady we used if you'd like.)
Yeh that would be great Remus!
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1) What's the thinking these days about going through a mortgage broker vs comparison websites and going direct to the bank? Do brokers save a lot of hassle and secure better deals? Would probably be looking at the smallest possible mortage that allows us to make use of Help to Buy ISA / LISA and then borrow the rest from family if that makes any difference.
This can vary massively depending on brokers, your knowledge of mortgage workings, and also how much you value someone doing admin leg work for you. Personally I prefer dealing direct with the bank for residential stuff, equally I know people who swear by the ease of dealing with a broker. If you can get a good recommendation (like above), then that's a good start.
2) Any recommendations of solicitors or surveyors in the Shipley/Saltaire area?
In my experience it is total pot luck with solicitors and also depends massively on the vendor's choice which is out of your hands. Even returning to the same one doesn't guarantee the same service as before. It is a general rule that most people buying houses come out hating solicitors. I tend to just go for the cheapest I can find using an internet search and it's always been fine, usually a big generic firm. Personally I see little to no advantage in going local (maybe if things go really tits up physically being able to go the office might help?), and you usually have to pay a few hundred quid more for the privilege.
When would be a good time to start trying to get the price down?
Errrm, before you put the offer in?! The only time after that I have re-negotiated on price is after survey findings etc. Legally you can do it any point though, and I know plenty of people who have had buyers just turn round and drop the offer by £Xk. You probably don't need telling how that usually goes down with the vendor and as you mention, the outcome will come down to how much they need to sell and other levels of interest.
Sorry, not sure how helpful any of that has actually been.
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I've had zero experience of brokers, and only ever bought one house, but going direct to the bank was easy. It may have helped that the best deal for our LTV was the same bank that we both already had current accounts with. I was under the impression that brokers were mostly useful if you had "niche" circumstances that meant you'd be ruled out of products from some lenders?
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We used Peter Mulderrig from K&M Financial Advisors Ltd. based on a recommendation from another climber (Rog), who works as a FA (pensions).
Peter was by far the easiest and best bit of my whole house buying experience.
I'm not sure what your hope is for the stamp duty holiday but I've seen plenty of articles warning people of missing out due to backlogs in searches etc.
I went with a recommendation from a colleague for a local solicitors who happened to employ a friend; this didn't work out well for me (the purchase was complex). Personally, I'd look for a decent online system as it's better organised than a thousand emails re:re:re etc. Previously I used Super Ted's employer of the day but he left not long after (apologies I can't remember their name).
Errrm, before you put the offer in?! The only time after that I have re-negotiated on price is after survey findings etc. Legally you can do it any point though, and I know plenty of people who have had buyers just turn round and drop the offer by £Xk. You probably don't need telling how that usually goes down with the vendor and as you mention, the outcome will come down to how much they need to sell and other levels of interest.
Indeed but it's a completely shit move and what makes house buying an excruciating experience. It always feels like someone is playing fast and loose with your cash and it's hard to make large financial decisions that are perhaps stretching yourself/or short term cash flow when people lower (or in our case, raise) the value after an offer is accepted.
I've had zero experience of brokers, and only ever bought one house, but going direct to the bank was easy. It may have helped that the best deal for our LTV was the same bank that we both already had current accounts with. I was under the impression that brokers were mostly useful if you had "niche" circumstances that meant you'd be ruled out of products from some lenders?
I've used them twice now for house buying and I've never been able to get similar rates myself direct.
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Local recommendations having bought in Baildon this Autumn.
Broker. We used Andrew Milnes at Mortgage Advice Bureau in Bingley. We were first time buyers and he was helpful at letting us know what to expect from the process, illustrating our options and recommended a local solicitor. I don't know what he normally charges and whether it's reasonable/worth it.
Solicitors we used Keely Moore at Eatons Solicitors - they did the job but were rubbish at replying to emails. Would answer the phone though and let us know the answer to any questions we had.
Survey we used Dan Brumfitt at Feather Smailes Scales - had a good turnaround and we haven't had any surprises that weren't on the survey.
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Solicitors: We’re mid purchase - that is potentially tricky (from what was a complex probate application - now sorted - and it’s an old house with many issues)
Because of this we went with a middle/upper price range local Manchester solicitors. They were initially really shit. But a factual yet blunt email pointing out the deficiencies saw our case handler change and she is really really good. So far 😂
Re price drop - if you want to be the fairest to the vendors - ask now. If you want it to be most effective wait until the last minute.
Either way you won’t be popular.
When I last sold the buyers basically forced me to drop £5k at the last min on some bullshit (it was bullshit) about the electrics but I was in no position to refuse as I had to sell. I thought they were cunts for that.
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1) What's the thinking these days about going through a mortgage broker vs comparison websites and going direct to the bank? Do brokers save a lot of hassle and secure better deals?
A good broker will save time and hassle.
They are unlikely to achieve anything that you couldn't achieve yourself with some research and legwork.
Not all brokers have access to all lenders and some lenders don't use brokers at all and are only available direct.
Would probably be looking at the smallest possible mortage that allows us to make use of Help to Buy ISA / LISA and then borrow the rest from family if that makes any difference.
Some lenders are wary of using gifts from family to make up a deposit in case they demand it back. It's fine to do but they are likely to require you to sign a contract to say it is a gift and cannot be expected to be repaid.
They accepted asking price but another very similar house in the same street went for £20k less just a month ago (we only found this out after putting the offer in).
Are the two houses the same in size, layout, location and upkeep? Are the situations of the buyer and seller the same?
The two houses might be worth the same but being on the same street is no guarantee that they are.
When would be a good time to start trying to get the price down?
Before having an offer accepted. You can change your offer any time before exchange of contracts but lowering the price now without a good reason (e.g. a survey uncovering unknown issues) is a dick move and you risk pissing off the seller.
If you are going to do it, do it ASAP while there is still time for them to find another buyer if they decide to pull out of the sale and while you haven't invested too much time, money and emotion on a property you don't end up buying.
The vendors are probably in more of a rush to move than we would be as the stamp duty holiday is irrelevant for us.
The general assumption in the market is that the stamp duty holiday is likely to be extended anyway (although possible on reduced terms, similar to the reduction of furlough over the summer).
The vaccines may be rolled out in time to make an extension unnecessary but government policy is pretty much to prop up house prices at all costs.
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Yeh I totally understand dropping the price is shit. Not sure if this makes me less of a bad person but the offer was made on condition that they take it off the market as we didn't want to get into a bidding war. 6 days later (and counting) and it's still up there despite providing them with everything they've asked for in terms of proof of mortgage in principle, proof of deposit, ID checks etc. on the day the offer was made.
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I've used them twice now for house buying and I've never been able to get similar rates myself direct.
Interesting... can you normally go to them with a "beat this" without paying them anything, or does it not normally work like that?
Some lenders are wary of using gifts from family to make up a deposit in case they demand it back. It's fine to do but they are likely to require you to sign a contract to say it is a gift and cannot be expected to be repaid.
+1 on this - my mum gave us some money towards the house and had to sign something confirming that (at least as far as the law/bank was concerned) it was a gift and not a loan
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Yeh I totally understand dropping the price is shit.
It is, and you will get a lot of people telling you how shit it is having been on the end of it. I would be one of them!
However.
Property negotiations are tricky. It is rarely something that most people have much experience in. I mean, how many times are you realistically going to do it?! So if you got it wrong, I wouldn't let your morals and willingness to be a nice buyer get in the way of any re-negotiation. I'm guessing the amount of money you want to drop by is not insignificant to you. Ask yourself, is £5-10k (or whatever it is you're wanting to drop by) really worth being nice over? Don't beat yourself up about it. And if the vendor has any amount of nous about them, they won't be expecting plain sailing. Personally I would be prefer to be upfront about it but, as TT says, last minute can be incredibly effective. If not properly cuntish. (but if you piss them off too much, they may just back out due to principle!)
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Interesting... can you normally go to them with a "beat this" without paying them anything, or does it not normally work like that?
First time the fee was tiny £75 but even that I don't think it was paid until you took a mortgage forward (this was via Shark's advisor at the time). This time it was more but I believe the same applied (I'd have to check though).
In both instances I'd also done the leg work looking myself (and with my existing mortgage provider this time as it was taking on a second mortgage temporarily).
Personally I would be prefer to be upfront about it but, as TT says, last minute can be incredibly effective. If not properly cuntish. (but if you piss them off too much, they may just back out due to principle!)
It can also cause the whole chain to come crashing down. My folks are currently buying a new-build and if their buyer did this their chain would likely collapse and they'd be out the deposit on the extras.
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Ask yourself, is £5-10k (or whatever it is you're wanting to drop by) really worth being nice over?
That's what we keep going over and over. It's not in our nature, but £10k could pay for a lot of the work we want to do on it.
Are the two houses the same in size, layout, location and upkeep? Are the situations of the buyer and seller the same?
The two houses might be worth the same but being on the same street is no guarantee that they are.
Yeh we've been comparing them for exactly this. No idea about the situation of buyer/seller but the houses are very very similar. One has huge tanked basement, the other has a second ensuite bathroom and in slightly better location on the street but without a bay window in the living room that the other has. Other than that exact layout and upkeep.
We've basically been talking about what the best thing to do is for the last 6 days and not much else!
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I know another broker who I can put you in touch with if you like Ali. He has been nothing short of a genius for various members of my family who had differing mortgage requirements.
Having been on the end of various shady practices regarding last minute price drops I would definitely mention it sooner rather than later. If it works, then great, if it doesn't at least you haven't made yourself feel like a twat by doing it at the last minute. That said, 20k is a big difference. :devangel:
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I love how everyone on this forum is a card-carrying Corbyn-cuddling commie when discussing politics, and when push comes to shove it turns out that they're cold, calculating, callow capitalists who aren't above exploiting the desperation of others to save them a buck.
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I love how everyone on this forum is a card-carrying Corbyn-cuddling commie when discussing politics, and when push comes to shove it turns out that they're cold, calculating, callow capitalists who aren't above exploiting the desperation of others to save them a buck.
Is it your house that’s being sold Will 😂
Gotta say - what you’ve written is a pretty weird interpretation of all the posts I’ve read....
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It's only a slightly more direct way of saying what lots of people have already said. Dropping the bid at the last hour when everything else is agreed is a cunty thing to do, but who wouldn't be a cunt for £10k?
I'm a cunt every day of my life and I don't charge a penny.
But seriously, if it was me and I honestly felt like I'd made a mistake with the offer then I would raise it at the earliest opportunity and see what the seller says. If they don't budge then it's up to me to decide whether it's worth it. Houses, if you're going to live in it and raise a family in it, are important and the right one is well worth sticking an extra 5 or 10k on the mortgage for.
That said, I think Ali's reasoning is a bit skew. So another house on the street sold for 20k less? So what? Different house, different sellers, different buyers. The two situations, unless we're talking about a new build bought from the same developer, are probably not comparable. An object is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you made the offer then that's probably indicative of what the house was worth to you, unless you weren't thinking straight at the time for whatever reason.
Completely off topic. Today my parents moved out of the house that my brother and I spent our whole childhoods in. They'd been there for 36 years. Houses are so much more than piles of bricks. The door to the utility room where people's height was ritualistically recorded, bearing a hundred biro marks charting the upward progress of their two boys, and their boys' friends, and of mum and dad and Grandma and Grandpa and everyone else. The garden where we had water fights with Andrew from over the road, and where we played and fell off the slide and sprained our wrists, and where we would fire rockets into next door's far-too-tall conifers. The bedrooms where we sulked, or courted our girlfriends, or woke up excited on Christmas morning. And every other nook and cranny bursting with memories and emotions.
When you see the right house you know it and you just have to do what's necessary to get the keys.
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I love how everyone on this forum is a card-carrying Corbyn-cuddling commie when discussing politics, and when push comes to shove it turns out that they're cold, calculating, callow capitalists who aren't above exploiting the desperation of others to save them a buck.
champagne *cough* socialism *cough cough* :devil-smiley::jab: (not that I'm any better...)
On topic: when we bought our house (competitive market) we had the opposite done to us. The seller's estate agent turned round and wanted an extra few k because "another buyer" had "offered a better price". I've always suspected that this was just the estate agent squeezing the price to make the seller happy, or something. I appreciate it's not the same sums as you're talking about but we were happy to pay as we really liked the house, location etc and had been outbid on others previously.
If you're already considering that the house isn't worth what you offered, maybe it's worth thinking if it's actually this particular house you want.
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Maybe armchair house sale eclipses armchair problem grading?? 😀
Our (hopefully soon to be exchanged) purchase is without any estate agents being involved. It’s been a far more pleasurable experience and a fair part of the process has been building trust between us and the vendors.
Next door but one went last week. Sealed bids. All above the asking price. Glad I’m not got in that shitty game.
When I was forced to drop the price (as mentioned earlier) I had to de emotionalise the whole transaction to stop me going bonkers (it’s just business etc.. etc..) but it needn’t be that way.
Just like in business - there are companies, shops etc.. that don’t act as if they are trying to screw the last penny out of someone.
Just because some people think they’re Donald Trimp when trying to close that sale - doesn’t mean everyone has to.
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The whole system of buying and selling houses is ridiculous. I really thought after the financial crash that would be the end of traditional estate agents. Same goes for brokers of straightforward financial products that can be marketed/researched online easily. Very little value brought to the party in the internet age.
Edit. That’s being too kind to estate agents. The whole ‘closed bids’ bollocks prevalent in Sheffield was/is used to drive up prices as they’d ring you up for the so called “best and final offer”. Totally corrupt in my view.
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Fuck off you had girlfriends. Hunt 😂
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I love how everyone on this forum is a card-carrying Corbyn-cuddling commie when discussing politics, and when push comes to shove it turns out that they're cold, calculating, callow capitalists who aren't above exploiting the desperation of others to save them a buck.
I'm just a tight Yorkshireman who doesn't want to pay over the odds. They're the ones saving £10k in stamp duty! Not exactly exploiting desperation.
Anyway we haven't done anything yet, we're still waiting to hear from them before we decide what to do. And they're clearly keeping the house on to see if they can get better offers despite the condition of our offer being to take it off the market, so the longer that goes on the less bad I'll feel if we decide to squeeze them.
We immediately offered asking to avoid going to sealed bids like other houses we've looked at have. Otherwise we may as well have just taken a punt and offered below asking, with a view to raise it for best and final if needs be - that was our reasoning at the time.
Definitely useful hearing other opinions though.
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I properly hate the english house buying/selling system.
Are you just buying a house or wanting to join a community? Being a dick to one of my neighbours (this happened to a neighbour/friends on my last street, 10k knocked off offer as buyer had no chain and they, our friends, were in a chain for dream house) does not endear you to the people who already live there.
If you are going to drop your offer, do so now.
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If your offer was conditional on them taking it off the market, and they haven't done that, then your offer wasn't really accepted. Presumably they've done that with a mind to changing their mind if they get a better offer. I don't see the moral difficulty with you making a different offer if they didn't fully accept your first one and they have one eye on doing the same back to you. That said, don't be surprised if they do the same back to you, possibly after you have invested some cash into the transaction.
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Had an offer on a house accepted this week. Still debating whether to go ahead with it or not but probably need to start looking at mortgages, solicitors and surveys.
I've only skimmed the rest of the thread but this stuck out at me; if you're not really sure about the place, why have you made an offer? When the right one comes around, in my (limited) experience you know it's the one. Do you really want somewhere you're not sure about? I think Will is on the money, when it's the one paying a little more is neither here nor there in the long run.
Especially so if you're likely to be overpaying. Drop the price now (they can only say no), or get out while you've not spent any money on it.
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If you do stick with it, I've used Ryan Property Law in Pudsey twice recently and thought they were great. Only 20 mins from Saltaire.
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if you're not really sure about the place, why have you made an offer? When the right one comes around, in my (limited) experience you know it's the one. I think Will is on the money, when it's the one paying a little more is neither here nor there in the long run.
Thanks Bradders. We both absolutely loved the place and were grinning at each other as we were going round (not in sight of the agent obvs) so it definitely fired something up. And that's why we were keen to secure it. I don't think we're doubting the house.
It's only after that when (a) we found out what the other house went for so were feeling like mugs, and (b) they didn't take it off the market as agreed, that doubts started to creep in.
At the moment I don't feel like we have a decision to make - as Ru says we feel like the offer hasn't been properly accepted, and no money has been spent.
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Re price drop - if you want to be the fairest to the vendors - ask now. If you want it to be most effective wait until the last minute.
Either way you won’t be popular.
If someone did this to me as a vendor, I would assume them to be untrustworthy. How the vendor reacts is hard to predict, but if you go back on your word, you have to be aware they may see that as the green light to do likewise if they get a better offer.
Personally, if in the position to, I would drop the sale as the buyer is likely to cause more hassles the further the process advanced.
The reverse is also true:
It's only after that when (a) we found out what the other house went for so were feeling like mugs, and (b) they didn't take it off the market as agreed, that doubts started to creep in.
If they don’t keep their word at the start they may well not keep it later. I would be tempted to withdraw and if it stays on the market come back with the price you really want to pay. There are other houses that will suit you.
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Ah fair play then, glad you've found somewhere you like.
I would still go back with a revised offer, but make sure if you do that you give crystal clear reasons for doing so (which you certainly have). At least then it's harder for them to think you're messing them around, and you're hopefully helping with their decision making by spelling it out.
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You mention the figure paying for a lot of work you want to do. I'm taking it that's improvement work rather than required work (which would be a legitimate negotiation point after a survey)? PS I think surveys are shit.
Will has highlighted why comparing the two houses is fraught with issues; it's not the same house/sale/owner etc.
The last two purchases we've had the same issue with the property not being taken off the market quickly. The previous purchase was ask but to be taken off before the weekend with four viewings scheduled. They didn't and at that point you've clearly shown what you can afford.
This one, the agent was just totally shit at getting it off and it took a call to make the point that our offer hadn't been accepted if they didn't. This didn't stop the vendor showing another buyer around a week or so later and then hitting us with a revised ask up to the point where another k and our short term finances were unworkable.
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They're the ones saving £10k in stamp duty!
Not really. The stamp duty holiday is factored in to the market price.
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I wouldn't be to worried about one house selling for a lower amount. Say this sale fell through are there other properties you could buy at a price similar to the one 20k less. You need to have a look at what the average prices have been factoring in there looks to be a bit of a bubble at the moment. I also wouldn't worry too much about the agent not to taking it off the market, agents are often slow doing this. Presumably the worry is someone else would out bid you. In which case you would at least know you didn't offer too much! I think its hard to buy a house without having the horrible feeling that you might be paying too much. Id do a bit more research on other prices and perhaps whether the agent usually values high or goes to sealed bids. Good luck with it.
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PS I think surveys are shit.
Out of interet, why is that?
We're getting close to completing on a property and just realised we haven't had a survey done (cock up because of having to swap solicitors, had a survey through the first solicitors and didn't sort it with the second solicitors). I'd like to get a survey done but it could have a knock on effect on the completion date.
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Presumably because they tend to justify their own existence by finding trivial things wrong with the house? Obviously there is a chance it might find something bad but if the house has been lived in consistently and isn't visible falling down anything it finds is more likely than not to be standard wear and tear, no? Full disclosure that I personally have not bought a house and so don't particularly know what I'm talking about, just experienced a lot of moves as a kid (8 houses before I was 18!), but my dad is a builder and is much more capable of assessing a house than most people (me included!) I suppose.
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I have been impressed with the surveyors we have used, confident they did a good job. Always a full building survey by RICS surveyor or an engineer though, the extra cost seems trivial when you're spending £100,000s
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We had a survey, I thought they were pointless, but ours found a load of woodworm. Cost of treatment could vary from a few fuck alls, to many many fuck alls. Got a specialist going in this week to let us know the cost. If its big then I'd want to know that before completing the purchase. For the sake of <1k seems mad not to have one (unless you are a surveyor of some kind). I'm sure they will have missed something major, but at least we know about this thing.
Wear and tear is one thing, but replacing all the roof timbers would be fairly spenny....
Just to add, informal chat with the surveyor was also really useful.
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PS I think surveys are shit.
Out of interet, why is that?
We're getting close to completing on a property and just realised we haven't had a survey done (cock up because of having to swap solicitors, had a survey through the first solicitors and didn't sort it with the second solicitors). I'd like to get a survey done but it could have a knock on effect on the completion date.
In my experience surveys (at least on older houses) always raise issues and they are generally not problems. The surveyor generally wants to cover their back without going to too much effort if something is hard to investigate properly. I have never negotiated money off on the basis of one, nor would have considered reducing the price of my house for someone else's. Even when they tell you something is important, it is usually just the sort of thing that would be common to every single house on the street. However, if you are lucky your surveyor might be willing to talk off the record with you about whether anything he recorded is something he would actually consider important if he were buying the house himself. That's what I did last time around and it was a really useful chat. The survey is also a good way to identify things you might want to keep an eye on if you plan on living there long term, even if you don't need to do anything about it in the short term.
If you are buying a new ish house then the situation might be very different.
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PS all surveys are shit
We may regret not getting a surveyor - but for our impending purchase we paid £5-600 for a local engineer to come around and give it a good look. He spent half a day going over the house and I was able to chat through loads of things/issues. He knew the local housing stock - and this type of (Victorian) house too.
Much more useful than a stuffy survey where if they’re not sure of anything they just say - get an engineers report....
He picked up loads of things about the construction - odd details on the wall cavities and- loads and loads of details that would normally be missed I suspect.
I did the same when I bought a house in Hull (with some ‘settlement’ in the foundations - that all the Victorian houses have there..). Cheapest survey possible to cover the mortgage - and £300 for a local engineers report.
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Presumably because they...
No, because they caveat everything to a point their output is barely of value IMO.
I'll caveat this ( :-[) with the fact we're both engineers so feel pretty comfortable with the risk involved.
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PS I think surveys are shit.
Out of interet, why is that?
We're getting close to completing on a property and just realised we haven't had a survey done (cock up because of having to swap solicitors, had a survey through the first solicitors and didn't sort it with the second solicitors). I'd like to get a survey done but it could have a knock on effect on the completion date.
Well technically the only survey you have to have is usually the one required by your mortgage provider to value the property. Anything else is up to the buyer, so you could chance it.
Having recently pulled out of a purchase on the strength of the building survey, I'm in favour of them. Turned out to be a very good decision.
That's another point worth considering Ali - if you're worried about over-paying, but love the house, see what the mortgage and building surveys come back with as a valuation. If your offer is too high the mortgage provider is unlikely to want to lend unless the price is lowered.
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Bear in mind the mortgage provider is only really looking at whether the house is sufficient value to pay off the mortgage, not whether you are getting a good deal. So if you have say a 25% deposit from selling a previous house, you'd have to be overpaying by 25% before they pulled you up on it, very roughly.
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Wear and tear is one thing, but replacing all the roof timbers would be fairly spenny....
Fair point! Hopefully he finds some sound wood up there for you...
I think the point about old houses is really relevant. If you aren't used to them I bet some people get scared shitless by a survey.
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Yeah, the list of defects as pretty comedy, but the wood was the only real problem, the rest is just standard 60s house.
Slight aside, after the survey we enquired why there was tape on one of the window frames, thinking it might be knackered. Turns out the kid had a taped a rainbow up there :clap2:
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Sorry if my earlier comment seemed unhelpful- having been thoroughly messed around by a dishonest buyer I have very little time for people who don't keep their word. Having a chat about the price if you feel you've pitched it too high isn't that though! Good luck with your purchase.
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Having recently pulled out of a purchase on the strength of the building survey, I'm in favour of them. Turned out to be a very good decision.
Can I ask what the issue was?
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Can I ask what the issue was?
In very simple terms we knew the house needed work, but the survey showed up a lot more than we'd bargained for (I.e. not just general wear and tear type renovations and modernisation), along with indicating we'd offered £10k too much based on the surveyor's valuation.
Biggest issue was very high damp levels throughout the whole house, but generally we just weren't prepared to take on a project.
It was a good decision because a couple of weeks later we basically found our dream house, with no work needed beyond minor redecorating, which I'm now writing this from :2thumbsup:
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A former GF got the surveyors to pay for £3k worth of work post purchase as they'd missed something quite obvious (a hole in the cellar wall to the adjoining proporties!!)
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We just moved into our first house, in Skipton, yesterday (YYFY!). We used Hornes Surveyors in Shipley who we were recommended and thought it was well worth the money for piece of mind. We got a few things fixed by the sellers off the back of it too.
https://hornes-surveyors.co.uk/
We also had the “we will take it off the market thing too”. They did cancel the viewings and didn’t take more but for us (if I remember right) they considered the offer to be when they had proof of mortgage in principle before they actually took the property off their website/Rightmove.
You could always get someone to ring up and try to book a viewing if you’re worried they’re still offering it out.
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Completely off topic. Today my parents moved out of the house that my brother and I spent our whole childhoods in.
Interesting thoughts. I feel completely at the opposite regarding my parents' house.
Years and years of problems with the other owners in the same building, led to broken personal relationships (with relatives...), bad blood, complete inactivity and lack of proper maintenance, even lawsuits.
And now I have to solve all this on their behalf.
I completely lost the little bond that I had with it, and I personally think that a house is much more than a pile of bricks only because of the people in it and their relationships.
If I could, I'd sell it tomorrow.
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Got to admit I have no emotional attachment to our childhood home....
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Can I ask what the issue was?
In very simple terms we knew the house needed work, but the survey showed up a lot more than we'd bargained for (I.e. not just general wear and tear type renovations and modernisation), along with indicating we'd offered £10k too much based on the surveyor's valuation.
Biggest issue was very high damp levels throughout the whole house, but generally we just weren't prepared to take on a project.
It was a good decision because a couple of weeks later we basically found our dream house, with no work needed beyond minor redecorating, which I'm now writing this from :2thumbsup:
We went through a similar situation. Put an offer in on a house which needed quite a bit doing to it. Surveyor was like "this house is actually f**ked" (it had had major DIY extensions...), he even said to my partner something like "off the record, but if you were my daughter I'd advise you don't buy it."
Shortly afterwards we came across a house significantly better in every way, which we've been in for 2 weeks now :)
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We went through a similar situation. Put an offer in on a house which needed quite a bit doing to it. Surveyor was like "this house is actually f**ked" (it had had major DIY extensions...), he even said to my partner something like "off the record, but if you were my daughter I'd advise you don't buy it."
If we're sharing bad survey stories, I once had a surveyor refuse to even carry out the survey and recommended I get a full structural engineering report. This then came back with the conclusion "there is a real risk that this property could fall down within the next 25 years". It was a 2 up 2 down end terrace and they had done the quite common thing of knocking the two ground floor rooms together. However, they had done no remedial work, literally just knocked the wall down. So the end exterior wall had such a lean on it that it was in danger of falling into the street.
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Just to update for anyone reading in the future and to say thanks for recommendations and advice.
We ended up getting the mortgage through Habito - so far it's been a pretty smooth experience and got a decent rate with Nationwide and had the offer through in less than a week. Though it's only a 5yr fixed to pay it off and all the rates were much of a muchness to be honest (i.e. low).
Solicitor = Keely Moore at Eatons. They ended up being the cheapest, at just over £1k(!) (though will end up being more with using LISAs for some of the deposit to get the bonus). May update this if she's shit.
Survey is going to be with Hornes. Full building survey for £900 as it's c1900 and we're looking at potentially digging out the basement and putting another door for access down there so thought the drive-by home buyer one wouldn't cut the mustard. Hopefully not a complete waste of money full of caveats.
Most importantly...I was shamed by the UKB collective into not dropping the price :ang:. After talking it through we decided the reason we'd offered asking straight away was cos we thought it was good value and didn't want to lose it. And on reflection looking more at the other house on the street we were comparing it with were happier as to why ours was worth the extra.
The vendors are buying a house with no chain so fingers crossed it won't all fall through. Thanks UKB.
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The vendors are buying a house with no chain so fingers crossed it won't all fall through. Thanks UKB.
Best of luck with it Ali, it sounds like a strong position / outcome!
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Nice Ali. Hope it goes well...
A Q for the UKB housebuying mind here....
We're close to exchange and completion on a do-er-upper that is being purchased from the executors of the deceased owners - no estate agent involved. Just in the final solicitors shizz about boundary queries and central heating certificates (etc..)....
The executors are keen to exchange asap (as in before Xmas) as are we for peace of mind, but they want to complete in about 4 weeks time (late/mid jan). I understand that this is because they want to get it 'signed off' before xmas, but will need a little more time for final bits of the house clearance etc... we have a good relationship with the executors/vendors. Google tells me this 4 week gap between exchange and completion is a tad on the long side, but not especially unusual.
Aside from us having to insure the house from exchange (£200..) are there any downsides or issues anyone can see here? I can't see one - but don't want to miss anything...
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Do you mean complete? You've said exchange twice.
Ask your solicitor. Due to ever changing restrictions we were advised that exchange/completion should happen on the same day.
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Do you mean complete? You've said exchange twice.
Ask your solicitor. Due to ever changing restrictions we were advised that exchange/completion should happen on the same day.
Yes thats what I meant (modified the OP now). As there is no chain - and we are not moving in on the day of exchange - restrictions won't be a problem (I think)...
Solicitor said "There is, of course, an increased risk in exchanging so far in advance before completion as the contract does become legally binding once we exchange" - which doesn't really say much... and putting my solicitor filter on means its OK, but there is a risk that I have to tell you about...
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What's the nature of the risk here?
If I'm right this is just the difference between agreeing / baselining the contractual side, and you actually paying for the house.
Only thing I can think of is that something catastrophic happens to the house in the 4-week window, but presumably that's mitigated by the fact you're gonna insure it from point of exchange?
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What's the nature of the risk here?
If I'm right this is just the difference between agreeing / baselining the contractual side, and you actually paying for the house.
Only thing I can think of is that something catastrophic happens to the house in the 4-week window, but presumably that's mitigated by the fact you're gonna insure it from point of exchange?
Thats what we thought too... Exchanging now means we don't risk losing the house (for whatever reason) but we're not yet ready to start any building work - so the month delay is fine. Just losing any interest (which is f*ck all at the moment) on the deposit we have to pay at exchange..
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There's a breakdown of some risks here.
https://www.bowfin.co.uk/what-can-go-wrong-between-exchange-and-completion/
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There's a breakdown of some risks here.
https://www.bowfin.co.uk/what-can-go-wrong-between-exchange-and-completion/
Taa Rob. Think we can cover off all of those OK.
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Does the insurance on the new place cover you without occupancy (for >30 days)?
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Does the insurance on the new place cover you without occupancy (for >30 days)?
Yup. Abs while building work being done.
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I remember reading something about legally needing ‘vacant posession’ as part of the process of completion. I’m sure your solicitor would’ve warned you if this was an issue though? Ignore me if this isn’t relevant.
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What's the nature of the risk here?
Only thing I can think of is that something catastrophic happens to the house in the 4-week window, but presumably that's mitigated by the fact you're gonna insure it from point of exchange?
It used to be that the risk lay with the vendor to provide the property as described in the contract. I heard that the responsibility has since shifted to the buyer ie - if the house is damaged, you still have to pay as at the point of exchange, not in its new condition. I'd check this out.
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Just to update for anyone reading in the future...
Solicitor = Keely Moore at Eatons. May update this if she's shit.
Further update and vent on this. Turns out she is, in fact, shit. Generally poor communication throughout, giving us the bare minimum in her responses to our queries when she does finally reply.
To top it off we were supposed to exchange yesterday and complete today (after 4 previous completion dates had been pushed back). She finally said last week she was sending us contracts to sign. Got an email this Monday morning from her saying the sellers at the top of the chain had covid so couldn’t move on that date, but that her report and contracts were prepared and she’d send them out that day. They arrived Wednesday. How the fuck she thought that would have been sufficient time to check through everything and get them back to her by yesterday for exchange (assuming the Covid thing hadn’t happened - which makes me suspicious that’s just an excuse).
And on top of all that we’d asked right at the start of the process to be ‘tenants in common’ with unequal shares (as we’ve put different amounts into the deposit) and told her how we wanted the shares to be split. The transfer deed she’d sent was marked as ‘joint tenants’. So now she’s had to send us another transfer deed. That fuck up alone would have caused the moving date to fall through.
Anyway, we were expecting her also to send a separate ‘Declaration of Trust’, as from what we’ve read that’s fairly standard if you’re tenants in common. But it’s just come through today and she hasn’t sent us that either.
So...anyone versed in this kind of thing able to offer any advice? If the title deed states the share split, can we get away without a separate ‘Declaration of Trust’? Deposit amounts are different but mortgage and any renovations will be split 50/50 so at the end of the mortgage we’ll have the same share split as on day one. Only reason I can see for getting the ‘Declaration of Trust’ under those circumstances is to state who your share of the property goes to if you die (it’s not automatic like joint tenants). But I could be totally wrong here or missing something fundamental.
Under normal circumstances I’m sure the answer would be “speak to your solicitor” but given all of the above and that she has never once answered her phone or replied to a voicemail I have zero confidence in her.
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Ugh that sucks Ali.
We completed at the beginning of Feb - but that was pushed back from “all ready to go” just before Xmas. Both solicitors blaming each other. In the end both us abs the vendor were badgering our respective solicitors until it went through.
We went with a large (and fairly expensive) local firm - and initially were treated like crap. No calls or queries returned etc.. I emailed one of the senior partners and documented their failings and we were swiftly transferred to a different person who was tbh pretty good.
At your stage it’s that horrible in too deep to change point I’d guess which may mean just politely badgering them every day until it happens....
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I emailed one of the senior partners and documented their failings
We plan to do this after it’s gone through but before they send the invoice. Yeh at this stage I don’t want to do anything to cause yet another hold up so we’re a bit stuck with her.
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Afraid I don't have any particular knowledge to help. I get the impression legal stuff like is made deliberately confusing to justify the fees! Anyway im sure you have thought about it and have enough on your plate but if I have understood you correctly that seems a less than ideal financial set up. If I was contributing 50% of everything bar the initial deposit id want to get to a position where I owned 50% of the house. It also sounds like a will would be a good idea at some point. Good luck with it all.
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that seems a less than ideal financial set up. If I was contributing 50% of everything bar the initial deposit id want to get to a position where I owned 50% of the house. It also sounds like a will would be a good idea at some point.
As far as I’m aware this is fairly common. With unequal initial deposits the smaller ‘investor’ could either contribute to more of the mortgage/renovations aiming to get to 50% share of the house over time, or pay equal mortgage/renovation payments and the share split stays the same at the end of the mortgage. We did check this but you’ve got me doubting myself now!!
Yes to a will. I think it will be a good idea.
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Sorry Ali - not meaning to add more stress! It just seems a much better deal for the person with the bigger deposit. You could argue they deserve it as the bigger investor but long term id have thought its ideally better to try get on an equal footing. Its definitely common to not have a perfectly fair set up - mine is far from perfect!
Just thinking about the declaration of trust I think it might be needed as legal confirmation of the purpose of buying the house together. Ie your buying it as a home to live in together. This is important because if this changes it gives each party the right to go to court to force a sale on the basis the initial trust has ended. Hope that makes some sense and I could be talking nonsense as im not a solicitor!
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We did the same with our house. Was 50/50 - but we wanted 75/25 (for a range of reasons). We had to sign new contracts - only took her a day to sort it out.
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Just to top it all off we received the ‘completion statement’ from her last night showing the balance due, which she’s also made a pigs ear of.
Not only have the legal fees increased by close to £300 from the original estimate, but she’s also randomly added about £2k on to the balance owing, which we can only assume is a calculation or typing error as there’s no other explanation for this. Absolute joke and doesn’t inspire confidence about the attention to detail paid to the rest of her work.
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Check your messages..
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Ali, I'd try your best just to take a deep breath and get on with it. My purchase had similar hiccups with documentation which having had to get a witness during lockdowns was quite frustrating. You won't care once it's done.
Similarly my folks are having the same problems buying a new house now; their completion balance due yesterday was incorrect. They move out on the 6th :2thumbsup:
It's a farce but you don't get anywhere getting worked up by it and complaining gets you moved to A N Other with a different set of evils!