UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Three Nine on January 24, 2013, 09:54:08 am
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http://www.crimpoil.com/en/story/ (http://www.crimpoil.com/en/story/)
From Shauna C's blog. Thoughts?
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I'm also intrigued. I might invest but at the same time it seems a bit gimmicky and placebotic. (That's now a word by the way.) I'd also be worried that it'd make my already perma-greasy fingers greasier.
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I was intrigued too, so did a bit of reading.
It's main ingredient (Helichrysum Italicum) has some decent evidence for an anti-inflammatory effect (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11902802 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11902802)).
Wintergreen is the same stuff you find in tiger balm - inside the body it metabolises to make anti-inflammatory chemicals, but for topical applications the biggest effect is probably pain-relief, probably caused by counter-irritation (http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7446/995 (http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7446/995))
I couldn't find any evidence for peppermint doing anything effective, though it's in that nice 'cool gel' that the physios use with ultrasound. Same with lineolic acid - lots of effects in the body but using it topically is like pouring petrol on your car bonnet.
Sounds like it smells nice. I've bought some.
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You can already buy ibuprofen topical gel.... (Ibuleve). Won't it have the same pain relief, soothing and anti inflammatory properties. It's cheaper as well I think so.....
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Stu - did you get it from that site, or is there somewhere in the uk that stocks it?
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Does it contain serpentoleum? I hear it's the bollox
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Thoughts?
So, instructions for use are to massage it into your fingers after climbing; for injuries, then massage and rest? In that case, it sounds like it would work. But so would vitamin E oil / olive oil.
As for pre climbing, I expect for the pain relief aspect you would be better off with ibuprofen combined with paracetomol.
I already do the above, but well done to someone for getting till of people for the same idea wrapped up in climbing terminology.
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Through desperation I bought some a few months ago and have to say I am happy that I did. It may in part be a placebo effect and the main benefit may simply be the act of massaging tired sore tendons but pain quickly goes so I’m sold. Like others have said it smells good too, a bit like citronella so may keep the midges away.
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Totally agree that if you have inflammation, then topical brufen gel is probably more effective. And cheaper.
But then that won't smell all lovely.
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Ibuprofen gel and wash you're hands every now and again... The fact it smells better isn't an advantage really I don't think....
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Totally agree that if you have inflammation, then topical brufen gel is probably more effective. And cheaper.
But then that won't smell all lovely.
Wasn't there some discussion on here a while back that suggested topical gels were less effective (or certainly less proven) than oral NSAIDS? Stu - Peppermint is also another ingredient of tiger balm (incidentally there are two version, white and red).
I'm inclined to side with Nige and Bonjoy thus far.
Has anyone else noticed that endorsements by climbers of various products, health snacks/dietary products (and maybe I'd lump the sale of training advice in here too) are becoming more and more common?
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Climbers sponsored by snack bars is popular at the moment....
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Wasn't there some discussion on here a while back that suggested topical gels were less effective (or certainly less proven) than oral NSAIDS?
Makes perfect biological sense, the stomach lining has evolved for absorption, the skin has evolved as a barrier to the external environment.
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Wasn't there some discussion on here a while back that suggested topical gels were less effective (or certainly less proven) than oral NSAIDS? Stu - Peppermint is also another ingredient of tiger balm (incidentally there are two version, white and red).
I'm inclined to side with Nige and Bonjoy thus far.
The medics that I know have all told me that Ibuleve Gel and the such like are all just gimmicks and not as effective as tablets. Although I just took their word for it so have no links for reading or proof in any form.
I am also a sceptic though. Although massage is meant to help isn't it, so I guess if you follow the instructions it is 'technically' going to help you. Just at a greater price than doing the same without buying the nicely marketed snake crimp oil.
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Reckon DMSO would help transport the oil across the skin barrier more effectively?
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DMSO == :shrug:
Acronyms are only useful/work when you know your audience/people you're talking to understands them.
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Yeah masonwoods, RTFM or GTFO.
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Maybe I'm just a skeptic but this sounds really snake oily to me...
Still, I know plenty of climbers who delude themselves about how quickly they're going to recover from finger injury, and would likely try anything to speed recovery time, and thus I'm sure this is going to be wildly popular.
"I’ve finally met an awesome osteopath who taught me how to use essential oils and totally cured my fingers. She gave me a little bottle with a synergy of essential oils in it I would carry everywhere in my climbing bag."
What next? Guppy Grease? Homeopathic Hangboards?=)
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Guppy Grease?
Alternatively named cusp capsules or mould medicine.
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Don't be stupid, why would you want to grease a guppy? Guppy glue perhaps. 100% horse free (Tescos style).
I was thinking Pulley Grease (http://www.cmsnl.com/products/super-pulley-grease-5g_090096900200/), it comes in 5g tubes so we really could rip people off for a 'luxury item' such as this.
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Nevermind Crimp Oil, I rate Altivit for those highballs!
http://www.altivit.com/ (http://www.altivit.com/)
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Reminds me of that advert in OTE a while back for "high altitude viagra".
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What about Tendon Recovery Chalk? Crush some paracetamol and ibruprofen up and mix it with some chalk - think we should start a UKB climbing aids company and split the profits to buy us all 3 wolves howling at the moon climbing vests.
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I've heard the same about topical anti-inflammatories; a bit of a waste of time.
This is almost certainly a nicer smelling, less effective, version of ibulieve. However, never underestimate the placebo effect of a potent smelling cream you rub on. I've become quite open to the idea of intentionally deceiving myself that something will work, in the hope of getting maximum placebo effect. One of the best things about tiger balm is the feeling that anything that makes your eyes water HAS to work...
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:sorry: solvent that is very effective at transferring other chemicals across the skin... Used in drug delivery... So it would actually get NSAIDs across the barrier to the inflamed area directly...
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FWIW I got a bottle a while back and found my finger niggles went away when I massaged them regularly.
Before I continue - I haven't bothered doing any research on the efficacy of any of the ingredients,
so all of my comments are based on personal experience and conjecture,
Thus far all I can say is that my fingers sure felt relaxed and healthy after I used it.
Not to mention smelled nice - which, as someone said, probably doesn't improve its effectiveness... but it is still true.
Dr. T was telling me today that ibuprofen has been shown to reduce tendon healing efficiency in rats
"However, in a study that examined the effect of celecoxib on rat ligament transaction, animals treated with this coxib for the initial 6 days after injury had weaker ligaments than those given placebo when tested 14 days after the initial injury
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21. Elder CL, Dahners LE, Weinhold PS. A cyclooxygenase-2 inhibitor impairs ligament healing in the rat. Am J Sports Med. 2001;29:801-805.
22. Ferry ST, Dahners LE, Afshari HM, Weinhold PS. The effects of common anti-inflammatory drugs on the healing rat patellar tendon. Am J Sports Med. 2007;35:1326-1333.
So maybe Crimp oil is actually a good alternative.
I havent been using it for a few weeks now - (because we all know how easy it is to forgo prevention when there is nothing bad happening) and I just got an A2 tweak.
I have the bottle of crimp oil at work so I will use it every day at lunchtime and see what happens.
I will not use Ibuprofen orally or as a gel (after a quick search, apparently ingesting too much can hurt your liver...who knew? :shrug: )
I will report back.
and then we can form a judgement based on my extensive data sampling. :smartass:
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I will not use Ibuprofen orally or as a gel (after a quick search, apparently ingesting too much can hurt your liver...who knew? :shrug: )
Don't look-up the side effects of Vitamin C whatever you do...
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FWIW I got a bottle a while back and found my finger niggles went away when I massaged them regularly.
That is exactly what you would expect from massaging your fingers regularly. I'm not jibing this product in any way (yet!), because like yourself I have no idea about the science. However I think the procedure for healthy crimping is, and always will be: warm up well, don't overdo it especially when tired, avoid foot slips, train crimping in control on a fingerboard before unleashing on stuff at your limit, eat well, stay hydrated. If you're psyched then add in finger massage and icing after climbing. Anything else is just tinkering around the edges.
My hunch would be that this stuff would have a very very slight beneficial effect relative to the above, but if you're time poor and have a few quid spare then hey why the hell not? Plus the placebo effect of chucking money at some fancy sounding herbal ingredients with the word "crimp" bolted on may well be worth the notes on its own.
I think Paul B's general point about more sponsored climbers pushing "health products" e.g. this stuff, snack bars, organicly woven alfafa hemp yogurt guava shots is worthy of discussion. I think this is definitely in the "tinkering round the edges" category relative to the obvious eating (normal food), drinking (water), sleeping, training. Do we really need to be told that such-a-body eats such-a-thing ? Does anyone think this stuff makes any real difference? Or are we just becoming subsumed by aspirational pseud nonsense? I'm afraid I found it far more interesting wondering exactly what cocktail of speed and coke Jerry used on Evolution, or what Dave Graham's favourite green is, than knowing that James Pearson tackles a posh flapjack after a redpoint. I apologise for such cynicism, but I miss Dense :'(
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FWIW I got a bottle a while back and found my finger niggles went away when I massaged them regularly.
Or are we just becoming subsumed by aspirational pseud nonsense? I'm afraid I found it far more interesting wondering exactly what cocktail of speed and coke Jerry used on Evolution, or what Dave Graham's favourite green is, than knowing that James Pearson tackles a posh flapjack after a redpoint. I apologise for such cynicism, but I miss Dense :'(
Right on
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http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm (http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm)
I've used it before with positive results. Makes your breath smell. There are stories on the bodybuilding forums of people crushing up pills and then using DMSO as the transport agent. I'm guessing this is probably better that the snake crimp oil
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I'm willing to lend it the benefit of the doubt if it stops my fingers hurting tbh.
The last two years have been blighted by injury so if the only thing that it does is convince me to massage my fingers more...then so be it.
It works - and goes a long way too.
:shrug:
I guess my point is - that placebo or not,
my fingers seem to heal faster and injure less when I am using it, and the bottle I have had for 6 months is still going strong... It has been a good investment imo.
Although I guess I have lost more money to trips since I have been able to climb more... Maybe I should ask for a refund? ;)
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Crimp oil is not meant for skin on hands like someone mentioned above like other products such as climb on. It's for alleviating tendon/joint pain and inflammation and you are meant to massage deep into affected area 3 times a day in cases of injury.
It smells nice, and it's like any massage oil really in that it allows effective pressured movement across the skin (lube!). I have been using it on my dodgy elbow, but as I don't really know what's wrong with my elbow, (joint inflammation, discomfort and restricted movement) I wouldn't know if it would be good enough to help. Also I never manage to consistently use it 3 times a day, maybe if I did it might miraculously heal my spannered elbow.
I think any amount of regular deep tissue massage will have some benefit to minor niggles. But can't see it being much use for more serious tendinitis or arthritic pain, could be wrong though I guess.
As for ibuleve and similar products pharmacist told my man that they become less effective if used regularly, and shouldn't use it if you have used it on same problem in last 6 months, not sure if there is truth to this, but pharmacy bloke seemed to think it would be a waste of time and money if you use it regularly.
My doc told me most effective treatment to reduce inflammation (had a sprain, and tendon inflammation) is a course of oral ibuprofen, take regularly for 7 days to allow it to actually reduce the inflammation and start to heal, oh and rest. I ignored the rest bit and kept popping the ibuprofen.
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I've heard the same about topical anti-inflammatories; a bit of a waste of time.
never underestimate the placebo effect of a potent smelling cream you rub on. I've become quite open to the idea of intentionally deceiving myself that something will work, in the hope of getting maximum placebo effect. One of the best things about tiger balm is the feeling that anything that makes your eyes water HAS to work...
All the evidence i've ever seen says oral NSAIDS are far more effective than topical for both pain relief and reducing inflammation. The advantage of topical is that it doesn't make your stomach lining bleed if you take it regularly for any length of time, whereas oral may well do.
The irony, in a climbing context is that a lot of people will be taking it for a tendinopathy which has little or no inflammatory element, (despite being routinely referred to as 'tendonitis').
Anyway, screw tiger balm this stuff is the shit:
http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/290777606552?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&adtype=pla&crdt=0 (http://compare.ebay.co.uk/like/290777606552?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&adtype=pla&crdt=0)
and has a much funnier name.
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Crimp oil is not meant for skin on hands like someone mentioned above like other products such as climb on. It's for alleviating tendon/joint pain and inflammation and you are meant to massage deep into affected area 3 times a day in cases of injury.
You've got to wonder how much of the benefit is due to the massage vs the product ingredients. I note that the instructions for use are to massage it thoroughly. What about a pure topical application to test efficiacy of the ingredients only? Vs massage with olive oil?
My doc told me most effective treatment to reduce inflammation (had a sprain, and tendon inflammation) is a course of oral ibuprofen, take regularly for 7 days to allow it to actually reduce the inflammation and start to heal, oh and rest.
As Toby says this is a fairly well established fact in the world of over the counter medicine (obviously prescription drugs may be even more effective). Hence why the world of medicine recommend these over topical treatments.
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I havent been using it for a few weeks now - (because we all know how easy it is to forgo prevention when there is nothing bad happening) and I just got an A2 tweak.
I have the bottle of crimp oil at work so I will use it every day at lunchtime and see what happens.
I will not use Ibuprofen orally or as a gel (after a quick search, apparently ingesting too much can hurt your liver...who knew? :shrug: )
I will report back.
and then we can form a judgement based on my extensive data sampling. :smartass:
Induce a few more A2 tweaks (ideally of the same severity at the same time).
On one massage crimp oil.
On the second just massage.
On the third apply crimp oil and don't massage.
On the fourth massage olive oil.
Maintain deep massage on the three fingers for the same amount of time.
Please report back which heals fastest.
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and pop another one but don't do anything to it at all.
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There are stories on the bodybuilding forums of people crushing up pills and then using DMSO as the transport agent.
Think I'll stick with Thomas Cook
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There are stories on the bodybuilding forums of people crushing up pills and then using DMSO as the transport agent.
Think I'll stick with Thomas Cook
All inclusive? ;)
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and pop another one but don't do anything to it at all.
I reckon that would heal slowest.
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Well, that's the control test. What if it healed quickest? Or at the same pace?
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Crimp Oil
Tip Juice
I'm patenting Sloper Lotion before anyone else markets it.
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I've got dibs on Undercut Unguent.
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You don't always need a control though, you're trying to compare two (or more) treatment regimes.
You don't have to have an arm where you "do nothing" as a control. Rather you use the current (best) existing method and see if the new device/treatment/intervention is at best non-inferior (but cheaper) or hopefully in some way superior.
For example theres a study I'm involved in looking at ways of treating haemorrhoids and is looking to see if a newish technique called haemorrhoidal artery ligation (HAL) has a lower recurrence rate at one year post-surgery compared to the current widely used method of rubber band ligation (RBL). At no point would anyone consider having a control arm where they do not treat the haemorrhoids, because over all you want things to improve faster than they would normally. Its still possible to see if HAL is more effective relative to RBL though.
In this instance, given that it seems that massage is known to improve healing (from what others have posted above, I've not researched the literature myself) I'd be surprised if it healed quickest or at the same pace.
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Jam jam - a soothing fruit based jelly to rub on your knackered crack climbing hands
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I was intrigued too, so did a bit of reading.
It's main ingredient (Helichrysum Italicum) has some decent evidence for an anti-inflammatory effect (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11902802 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11902802)).
Wintergreen is the same stuff you find in tiger balm - inside the body it metabolises to make anti-inflammatory chemicals, but for topical applications the biggest effect is probably pain-relief, probably caused by counter-irritation (http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7446/995 (http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7446/995))
I couldn't find any evidence for peppermint doing anything effective, though it's in that nice 'cool gel' that the physios use with ultrasound. Same with lineolic acid - lots of effects in the body but using it topically is like pouring petrol on your car bonnet.
Sounds like it smells nice. I've bought some.
But when mixed in the right proportions they can produce something amazing. It's like Alchemy.
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Sounds like it smells nice.
Olefactory (and taste) processing mainly occurs in the limbic system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbic_system). This is also an important centre for emotion and long-term memory - Proust knew his neurophysiology. The limbic system modulates pain (http://backandneck.about.com/od/chronicpainconditions/ss/chronicpaindepr_5.htm) and is associated with the emotional response to pain (http://www.pain-research.org/mechanics.html). Nice smells have the potential to alleviate pain.
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http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm (http://www.dmso.org/articles/information/muir.htm)
I've used it before with positive results. Makes your breath smell. There are stories on the bodybuilding forums of people crushing up pills and then using DMSO as the transport agent. I'm guessing this is probably better that the snake crimp oil
gonna start marketing it my self in a little bottle....
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DMSO == :shrug:
TLA's & FLA's Acronyms are only useful/work when you know your audience/people you're talking to understands them.
:whistle:
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massage with olive oil?
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FRL4Yedy0jg/TZtN7ZsWA8I/AAAAAAAAAGQ/9yEAxjC8wl4/s1600/040511+Oliveoyl.jpg)
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But when mixed in the right proportions they can produce something amazing. It's like Alchemy.
Wintergreen? Peppermint? Alchemy? Could it be........!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=TkZFuKHXa7w
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Well I sure as hell wasn't thinking of the Dire Straits Live album.
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I'll be marketing the upcoming grip enhancers:
Grit Shit, and Lime Slime. And a special edition, Rubicon Lubicon.
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My crimp oil came in the post today. To be honest I'm a bit disappointed with the smell. It smells a lot like hippies.
On the plus side, I put a bit on an hour ago, and now my finger is completely fine!
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No, wait, sorry.
I was putting it on the wrong finger.
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My crimp oil came in the post today. To be honest I'm a bit disappointed with the smell. It smells a lot like hippies.
Patchouli then?
No, wait, sorry.
I was putting it on the wrong finger.
:)
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Fuck i HATE the smell of hippies
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Fuck i HATE the smell of hippies
do you hate the way they smell because they're too chilled out to punter you?
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What sort of hippy are we talking about? Ne'er-do-wash Glastonbury types (stinking of weed, sweat and pagan spirits) or middle-class hippies (stinking of Triclosan-free handwash and crushed black pepper and organic soy sauce-marinated tofu served on a bed of quinoa and locally grown brassica)?
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If it was the former, would you buy some?
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No, if it was the latter I'd already be used to the smell.
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I keep seeing this thread title and thinking it says "chimp oil".....
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Stu had his crimp oil with him tonight, firstly the bottle is tiny, secondly it smells like dodgy midge repellent! He did say it'd fixed his finger overnight though so mine's in the post.
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You're posting your finger?
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that's what the witch doctor told me I needed to do?
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If the sangoma throws the bones and tells you to do so, then do so you must. Such is the way for believers in the power of snake oil.
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looking for links on the site to back up the claims of the ingredients for ability of healing injuries.......unless im blind im struggling.
sounds a like bit of a bollocks to me.
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Crimp oil?
That's what my pals call guinness.
Cheers
Crimp.
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No, wait, sorry.
I was putting it on the wrong finger.
Had something similar earlier today - tweaked my finger earlier in the week and having read this thread thought I'd give it a good bit of manipulation. 5 mins later realised I'd been massaging the wrong finger, it was the middle finger I'd hurt and not the ring finger!
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I've got gimp oil in my cellar!
Apologies if that's already been done.
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Crimo Oil s now available in 10ml and 30ml online with free postage from the rehab pages of www.tcaclimbingshop.com (http://www.tcaclimbingshop.com).
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wow, does it work well with the armaid?
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Crimo Oil s now available in 10ml and 30ml online with free postage from the rehab pages of www.tcaclimbingshop.com (http://www.tcaclimbingshop.com).
There's a special sub-forum for advertising (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/board,49.0.html) :whistle:
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Anybody whos bought it prepared to go out on a limb and say whether it works or not. I know science says its all smoke and mirrors, but I like many would probably rub my knob with broken glass if it would cure my injuries.
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...but I like many would probably rub my knob with broken glass if it would cure my injuries.
I can assure you that this does in fact work.
Broken glass and bespoke nob applicator available from my website www.ringingbell.co.ck (http://www.ringingbell.co.ck). All grades of glass available, including top-of-the-range ex-cathedral stained (blessed by bishop of your choice). Applicators in all shapes and sizes from "harvest mouse" through "choad" to current largest "A Dense Boner".
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wow, does it work well with the armaid?
I've not actually tried it in conjunction with the Armaid - but Caroline has recently sent a sample of her new Extra Hot Crimp Oil which might compliment it nicely. I was disappointed that it there was no naga chilli in it though!
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FWIW I got a bottle a while back and found my finger niggles went away when I massaged them regularly.
[...]
So maybe Crimp oil is actually a good alternative.
I havent been using it for a few weeks now - (because we all know how easy it is to forgo prevention when there is nothing bad happening) and I just got an A2 tweak.
I have the bottle of crimp oil at work so I will use it every day at lunchtime and see what happens.
I will not use Ibuprofen orally or as a gel (after a quick search, apparently ingesting too much can hurt your liver...who knew? :shrug: )
I will report back.
and then we can form a judgement based on my extensive data sampling. :smartass:
I have continued to conduct my testing, using some at least once a day and forgoing other treatment like ice and stretching. I have used it once or twice a day - Once at lunch time, and once before bed (after climbing).
I have seen improvement in the finger from pain on squeezing a spray bottle, to being able to crimp to a certain degree on problems (I used a quarter pad crimp last night - tried to open crimp it). However, I dont feel that Crimp Oil alone is enough to completely heal the finger so I am going to finish my rehab by including ice, stretching and massage. (I should say that while I have been 'Crimp oiling' I have still been climbing a fair bit and that may be setting back the process a little)
In my opinion, the crimp oil is better than ibuprofen gels for massage because it does not get sticky and make me not want to touch anything for a while. Instead it works its way into the skin by about the time I am done massaging. I view this as a good selling point because the faff with gels stops me from using them during regular rehab. (I do not know the relative costs of massaging oils - so as far as value for money goes on this point... :shrug:)
So - although I know my sample dates are not that long - I hypothesise that while Crimp Oil alone is not enough to 'heal' an injury, if used in conjunction with the 'normal' response (ice, stretching and oral ibuprofen) I hope to see a faster recovery time than normal. (I will not be able to confirm its efficicacy vs NSAID massage since I have not normally massaged after previous injuries).
I will report back just before CWIF.
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I view this as a good selling point because the faff with gels stops me from using them during regular rehab. (I do not know the relative costs of massaging oils - so as far as value for money goes on this point... :shrug:)
Do you want to buy a training program by any chance?
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I can sell you a Raymondioum impregnated shell - that when simply placed in your chalk bag/bucket will reduce all finger injuries by 31.29%...
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/12/ugu5ydug.jpg)
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I can sell you a Raymondioum impregnated shell - that when simply placed in your chalk bag/bucket will reduce all finger injuries by 31.29%...
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/12/ugu5ydug.jpg)
That sounds good!
If I buy three will that make me nearly impervious to injury?
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There's a law of diminishing returns with Raymondiums effects. The reduction halves for each additional one, so you'd be looking at c.52% reduction with three. Unless you use the wrist band as well.
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Come on, tell the truth, you are really trying to fob off a unicorn horn as raymondioum impregnated shell aren't you!
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Come on, tell the truth, you are really trying to fob off a unicorn horn as raymondioum impregnated shell aren't you!
FFS, its such bullshit that gives this industry a bad name... I/we have never ever ever ever made any use if any Unicorn body parts - AND its a complete lie that Horse parts from Romania made it into the processing chain.
Watch out or you'll be hearing from my Lawyers! LSL (Lagerstarfish-Sharpe-Legal inc.)
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I can sell you a Raymondioum impregnated shell - that when simply placed in your chalk bag/bucket will reduce all finger injuries by 31.29%...
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/12/ugu5ydug.jpg)
Jim's got one of those, though it came with a brightly coloured horse's tail attached, and he doesn't 'place it in his chalkbag'. He places it in his ar...
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There's a law of diminishing returns with Raymondiums effects. The reduction halves for each additional one, so you'd be looking at c.52% reduction with three. Unless you use the wrist band as well.
Damn, my dreams of putting my hand into a shredder will have to wait until I sell my car or something.