UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Paul B on January 25, 2012, 04:02:15 pm
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I've been avoiding training properly for a fair while now (mostly because my pulleys go snap crackle and pop more than your favourite rice based breakfast cereal).
Recently, and cautiously I've been deadhanging a bit to try and even out my many years of over-crimping and can now quite happily do my pretty average session of:
Repeaters:
all four
front 3
back 3
mid 2
front 2
back 2
(all on the top level)
Encores:
Crimps
Slopers
but it isnt really a max hang workout and having not done one before I've not got a clue how one should look?
What do people feel is the best way of progressing my openhanding further, add weight on the upper holds 2-armed or buy another pulley (whoever has mine I will find you like I did my lapis :devil-smiley:) ) for one-arm work?
I also really lack the ability to pull dynamically open or lock deep (any exercises for this that don't torture elbows welcome). I don't know if thats muscular or just a mind thing with it feeling less secure than good 'ol full crimp? The difference is quite marked.
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hey beast!!!
some openhanded Bodyblade?
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I think it's best to start with 2 arms and some added weight before switching to one arm and weight off, unless the weight you have to take off isn't that much compared to your body weight.
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doing simple math (if I can).
if one weighs 60 kg, there's no point, to me, in doing one arm work taking off 30 kg. I think it's better to use weights first.
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I get what you're saying, but 30kg (are you calling me fat?) would even things up to be comparable with just having two arms on, obviously I'd decrease the assistance somewhat, in the same way that I'd increase the ressistance by hanging a load (ok a bit) of weight from a harness/rucksack/bodyblade.
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Beastmaker recommend adding weight up to 15 kg, then work one armed to take weight off. I'd follow this, or maybe start one armed work earlier.
Regarding crimping vs open handed. I don't believe the weakness is mental or muscular, but rather neurological. If you read the section on isometric joint angle specificity (pg 18 /19) of this book:
http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Designing_resistance_training_programs.html?id=ylsfDoufD_4C&redir_esc=y (http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Designing_resistance_training_programs.html?id=ylsfDoufD_4C&redir_esc=y)
it sounds like work time at the grip position is more important than max force (this is for adapting to a grip type, not getting stronger in absolute terms). I saw this after Ceuse a few years ago, I came back very strong on middle two fingers, despite only onsighting whilst out there and never (or very rarely) pulling maximally. Of course this only has an effect on the finger joint angle, you may need to build up the required wrist stabilisers for the open or half crimp grip.
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yes exactly Paul.
in my experience two arms with lots fo weight is still stronger than one arm with half of the total.
also, I think that starting with two arms is less dangerous. let's not forget that not only your fingers bear the weight but also elbow and shoulder.
I think that doing a few tests will put you right.
if you can one arm it taking off quite less than half of your body weight, then there's no need to use two arms and added weight. otherwise I'd say yes.
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Doesn't bilateral asymmetry mean that a single arm can pull harder when it's working on its own. This is why a one arm pullup is easier than lifting twice your weight with both arms. The arm gets more muscle activation when working on its own. Based on this I would say that one arm with weight off is the better exercise.
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I don't know about bilateral asymmetry, but I don't think normal and one armed pull ups can be compared.
when working at the bar or lat machine the movement is very different from a one arm pull up.
in the second we tend to twist, in fact doing frontal one armers is very hard.
my experience is that while I could do at least one one armer, I struggled to pull my bodyweight at the lat machine with one arm, in the normal seated position.
slightly :off: sorry.
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i quite like doing one arm stuff but pinching the door frame (if your board presumably is) with the other hand works pretty well and means its really easy to vary how much weight is being taken off
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i quite like doing one arm stuff but pinching the door frame (if your board presumably is) with the other hand works pretty well and means its really easy to vary how much weight is being taken off
Mine is useless really its mounted just above a doorframe that is the same width as the bottom of the board meaning its flush with the lower holds. The roof is so low that I need to watch my head on the smoke alarm if I lock off. Its also in the doorway which makes one-arm stuff (and hanging assistance) akward. I'll be using the board at the Floundry.
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Both? That's what I do, but then I'm not exactly known for my amazing finger strength.
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ok, so you 'may' finally have a use; given you do both, for the same grip type, what weight do you end up adding for both arms? and how much assistance do you need to go one-arm (assuming you're not using some dodgy pulley that gives you 10kg or so extra)?
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To clarify, I don't do both of those on the same hold - I use a bigger one with 1 arm than 2. Never really. Used a pulley, just made the hold bigger and added a bit of weight if needed. The downside being I can only do this for 3 or more fingers due to weakness. Probably should get around to using some pulley system...
So sorry, still useless. I can give you tips on gentle capilliarising though? ;)
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ok, so you 'may' finally have a use; given you do both, for the same grip type, what weight do you end up adding for both arms?
as much as you can?
what do you mean Paul?
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back to your bodyblade you!
It was aimed at Barrows, but he proved useless, again. I was hoping having done both methods using the same hold he could say how much he added using two arms and also for the 1-arm variant how much assistance he needed i.e. compare the two.
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I can tell you that about myself if it's the same, but I was using a half crimp prehension.
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before I got a beastmaker I was hanging off a loft edge which turned out to be the same size as the outer slots of a BM2K.
I was adding about 18kg for a two-arm hang (bodyweight usually 58-60kg) and managing up to 10s IIRC.
Couldn't set up a pulley so when using only one-arm I was using a 3mm length of elastic (a 3metre length tied in a loop) doubled up around an anchor just above the hold. I would only manage that hang for up to 5s.
No idea how much weight it was taking off but I'm afraid.
I'm sure I've read that it's good to do one arm hangs even if you have to reduce the weight quite a lot as it helps develop muscles in the shoulder that help counter rotation. It would have been on here so worth a search maybe.
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Not sure this is exactly what I was after but good advice from Serpico as always
http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18641.msg331631.html#msg331631 (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,18641.msg331631.html#msg331631)
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Hi Paul
I used to add weight and use two hands, but now transfer my weight gently from one hand to the other (gentle side to side motion with body, or not so gentle as you get used to it, or full one arm hangs swapping sides footless etc. depending on strength on particular hold) which allows a nice series of reps to be performed, but does result in shorter contact periods than if just loading weight on.
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Cheers, I've got another pulley for one armers so I guess I'll just have a few test sessions and see what feels best. Ironically, it seems my crimp is lagging behind at the minute, although I'm very reluctant to do anything about it for fear of injury.
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hanging on one arm with weight off is better than 2 with weight on - fact.
if both arms are on then you've got another shoulder stabilising. thats a considerable boon.
you will be able to dead hang a campus rung paul one armed for definite,( if you can't i would a. be flabbergasted and b. guess it would be shoulder weakness)
the way i see it is max hangs and repeaters are complimentary. i think max hangs will increase your strength and change your concept of what a small hold is or what you can hang. repeaters are there to stress proof your fingers and build a basis for progression on.
(tangent alert - I can't see that repeaters will be good power endurance training . a because its static strength and b. if you are getting pumped doing a minute of hangs then I'm shocked, I would imagine you just wouldn't be able to hang the hold rahter than get pumped)
i think the cycle could be max hangs prioritised for a few weeks then a few weeks of repeaters, then step it up with an increased max hang?
(as a caveat this is based on no scientific fact and I do not do this at all. I go to the wall and gossip and fart about - I would suggest Ned would be a good person to ask.)
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you will be able to dead hang a campus rung paul one armed for definite,( if you can't i would a. be flabbergasted and b. guess it would be shoulder weakness)
I don't know, you might be horrified by the differences in my ability between open and crimped (can that be linked to shoulder stability or rule it out?), to be honest this is why I started deadhanging.
I'm happy as Larry with my thumb on one-armed down to fairly small holds (hanging or pulling) but open I think I'd struggle to hold a campus rung (and moving off it/latching something just wouldn't happen).
I can remember Mr Littlewad and I doing a quick test one day at the works (a few years ago), he was the exact opposite of me and was much stronger open.
I would suggest Ned would be a good person to ask.)
I did, this was his reponse:
to be honest all my fingerboarding is guess work!
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Paul, I can tell you something that isn't guess work.
If you train more and worry less, you'll get better. ;)
Time and time again, I see so many people that are so concerned with the details that they never pull off the ground, but if they just worked fucking hard - and consistently - they'd be fine (not that I'm really referring to you on this point, as I know you know how to graft).
Then again, the UKB intellectual banter is good too I guess.....
PS. Message coming your way.
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post it up for peer review
i've just looked on pub med regarding finger strength and climbing, with a variety of search terms.
there's alot of anecdote and my impression that no one can say for certain.
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I have two different routines which vary depending on what I'm aiming to improve on. I figure the rucksack off the back jobby is good for two arms and the pulley good for one. Obviously. I find though that I tend to increase weight for two arms by adding more into the pack, a little like a pyramid I suppose per set so I'll do two hangs with 5kg added, two with ten, two with fifteen then two with twenty if I'm in a pulley gambling mood.
Once I'm comfortable upto twenty (well relatively comfortable) I'll try and transfer to one arms with the pulley. For instance my current aim is to deadhang/one arm the bottom crimp on the Beast and I've just moved from rucksack hangs to assists. For my tuppence worth it is significantly harder to deadhang off one/one arm with alot of assistance than it is to hang with loads of weight on your back. What Beef said pretty much. In addition, the pyramid thing described a couple of pages back (0,2,4,6,8,10...) works a treat when your trying one armed even if you do it with 4,6,8 etc.
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there you have it. a consensus!
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it was an invite for me to go and see if I can jam his crack :jab:
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I reckon that the decision to one arm or two depends on how much assistance you need, and how strong/stable your shoulder girdle is.
If you don't need a lot of assistance (weight taking off) to hang one-armed then it means that you're likely going to have to add an impractical amount of weight to do max hangs two handed, especially in light of the research by Eva Lopez that suggests that max hangs on larger (but still 1st joint) edges gives greater gains than max hangs on tiny edges where skin and fingertip pulp is a factor.
If you're using assistance to hang one-armed then how you apply that assistance makes a difference; I've found from testing myself and others that if you use scales, either standing on them or pulling down on hanging scales with your free arm, that once you're down to about 5kgs assistance if you ditch the scales completely and instead just focus on hanging one-armed and reaching up for an imaginary hold with your free arm, you can often hang one-armed, in one case with extra weight. This could be related to the bilateral deficit effect as mentioned previously where the sum of the load lifted by 2 limbs is less than double the 1RM of a single limb, it's suggested that this is down to the reduced neural drive, so in the case of using assistance it's possible that the focus on reducing the amount you pull with your free hand is a distraction from pulling your maximum with your other hand, or maybe not... the effect is real enough though.
The other factor for hanging one-armed is shoulder strength, as I mentioned in the other thread a weak shoulder girdle will inhibit the entire kinetic chain; it's similar to the fad for instability training that was popular in conditioning a few years ago - people started lifting weights on unstable surfaces because it was supposed to work the stabilising muscles more, what they found was that it decreased force development, so the prime movers weren't getting worked to the same degree. If you're close to doing a one-arm hang you can rule out shoulder weakness by grabbing the bicep of the arm your hanging by with your free hand and pulling your arm into a slight lock, I've found with myself and others that this can enable you to hang one-armed. If this makes a difference then you need to work on your shoulder girdle strength.
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So the obvious next question is what's the best way to work your shoulder girdle strength? Is hanging one-armed off progressively smaller holds enough to do it?
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Google YWLT, especially the Nick Tuminello (sp) variation and do them.
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http://nicktumminello.com/2009/06/the-truth-about-ys-ytwl-shoulder-upper-back-exercise/ (http://nicktumminello.com/2009/06/the-truth-about-ys-ytwl-shoulder-upper-back-exercise/)
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If you're close to doing a one-arm hang you can rule out shoulder weakness by grabbing the bicep of the arm your hanging by with your free hand and pulling your arm into a slight lock, I've found with myself and others that this can enable you to hang one-armed. If this makes a difference then you need to work on your shoulder girdle strength.
Years ago this was also seen as a good way of making sure the failure was in the fingers and not in the arm, what goes around comes around. Definitely works.
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Google YWLT, especially the Nick Tuminello (sp) variation and do them.
http://nicktumminello.com/2009/06/the-truth-about-ys-ytwl-shoulder-upper-back-exercise/ (http://nicktumminello.com/2009/06/the-truth-about-ys-ytwl-shoulder-upper-back-exercise/)
does anyone have any experience with these? another website says that 8 pounds would be a lot for doing ytwls but that wouldnt really help all that much in max weight deadhangs? is it worth doing them with more weight or are they just good for general stability?
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If you can do 3 sets of 15 reps of each letter with 8lbs you definitely don't have any issues with your shoulders, I feel pretty worked just using 2.5lb dumbbells.
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http://nicktumminello.com/2009/06/the-truth-about-ys-ytwl-shoulder-upper-back-exercise/ (http://nicktumminello.com/2009/06/the-truth-about-ys-ytwl-shoulder-upper-back-exercise/)
Looks interesting. This video looks better doing it with a gym ball to prevent lower back extension (my nemesis)
A Better way to do the YTWL Shoulder Exercise Circuit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuIyONH795k#ws)
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I'm not a fan of doing them on a Swiss ball, I prefer to either do them unilaterally lying along the back of a couch, or bilaterally on a folded bouldering pad stood on it's side (you need a thick, old-school hinged pad like the Alpkit thud).
Despite recommending YTWLs it's worth reading this. (http://www.mikereinold.com/2011/05/why-i-do-not-like-ytwl-shoulder-exercises.html)
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Nothing's ever straightforward. Bloody training :furious:
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If you can do 3 sets of 15 reps of each letter with 8lbs you definitely don't have any issues with your shoulders
but say though if you wanted to do them as pure power training, like with 5 reps, are they practical or are you better off doing other stuff?
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With YTWLs you're targeting muscles that act in a stabilising/fixator fashion, so power training is totally inappropriate for them.
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I reckon...
Thanks for the insight (as ever), unfortunately it seems thinking about training is enough to get me injured. NNFN.
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Ok, I had a quick session with various forms of the pulley/weight/assisted setup the other night and it went pretty well.
Adding weight was a bit troublesome as my harness was trying to remove my pelvis with any more than 15kg.
I had to ignore anything involving the ring fingers which limited things a bit (unless people think its ok to train open on an A2?) however, I could complete a set of Front 2, 1-arm repeaters with about 15% assistance which didn't seem like overkill. It also allowed for 1-arm encores which left me exhausted.
I also rigged it up so the pulley was suspended from the BM and clipped the assistance point into my harness. This allowed me to do assisted two-arm stuff with about the same kind of assitance (although more room to get the weight off to one side might help). Judging from the muscle soreness in my forearms, it must be good (although it feels a little risky but then again I'm not used to mono's.).
I mostly stuck to repeaters to get a feel for it rather than wading in all guns blazing for a max hang session.
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Bit of a tangent but the few times that I have injured myself or aggravated an injury on the beastmaker have been when doing repeaters rather than max hangs. I seem to find short bursts of intense hangs less injury prone than more prolonged periods of easier hangs. probably just me being a bit weird or the fact that after a couple of injuries whilst doing repeaters I mainly do max hangs now :-\