UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: douglas on January 16, 2012, 02:54:01 pm
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I read the Carlo Traversi article about advanced movement:
http://www.theboulderingbook.com/2012/01/interview-with-carlo-traversi.html (http://www.theboulderingbook.com/2012/01/interview-with-carlo-traversi.html)
And I have realised that perhaps bouldering hard moves is more than being brute. One point mentioned was watching video of yourself climbing. I've never done this. I've no idea how I climb at all, other than a bit slowly. So my question is, of those of you who have, what did you observe and how was it valuable?
My second question is about training volume. Dave Macleod suggests it takes 10 years to build up to your personal training volume limit, then 10 years training at that limit, before reaching your peak. So I've been training for 3 years and can train up 4 days on with 1 day off but some of the real hard-trainers, Usobiaga, Simpson, Midtbø, Smith, (Moon and Moffat of the old school) and others I'm sure train many more days on- I'm guessing 15 or more? Is this the extreme, reserved for the steel tendoned elite? Or something that I can aspire to over the next seven years? If not, how much?
Thanks. I want to get as strong as this guy (see last pic)
http://davenoden.blogspot.com/2012/01/new-year-new-psyche-old-problems.html (http://davenoden.blogspot.com/2012/01/new-year-new-psyche-old-problems.html)
who incidentally trains 15 days on...
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And I have realised that perhaps bouldering hard moves is more than being brute. One point mentioned was watching video of yourself climbing. I've never done this. I've no idea how I climb at all, other than a bit slowly. So my question is, of those of you who have, what did you observe and how was it valuable?
I've not done much, but I've noticed that I climb with pretty good technique (even though I say so myself :) ), even when trying hard moves that I am failing on, until I start getting even slighlty pumped, then it all goes to ratshit, I tense up, start slapping, and my footwork goes to pot. I know what I need to do to fix this (mileage on pumpy routes indoors) but I can't spare the time.
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I have a tendency to climb a little slowly(unless I make a conscious decision not to), over-chalk and over-frenchblow.
but my buns DO look tight. :-*
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until I start getting even slighlty pumped, then it all goes to ratshit, I tense up, start slapping, and my footwork goes to pot. I know what I need to do to fix this (mileage on pumpy routes indoors) but I can't spare the time.
That sounds familiar :-[
but my buns DO look tight. :-*
No wonder you're climbing slowly if you're clenching and glancing over your shoulder the whole time. Maybe you should look at the holds? :tease:
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before reading the article, the best advice I can give you is:
do not base your training choices on what others do.
do not think about Ben, Jerry and Patxi. they are unique.
remember that many of the hard training guys have also extremely professional coaches, or can really understand their bodies well. they can tell they're 15 days on, but it's more important to know what they've been doing in those days.
you can train weeks without repeating twice the same session, and I reckon it's more or less what they do.
but everyone's different, so I think it's crucial to listen to what others say with the classic pinch of salt.
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they can tell they're 15 days on, but it's more important to know what they've been doing in those days.
:agree:
'Days on' doesn't really mean anything unless you specify what the days contain, and whether, for example, 45minutes aerocap/ARC counts as 'on' or 'off'.
It also obviously depends on how tired you're prepared to be for weeks at a time, and no doubt how tired you think it's desirable to get. E.g. Strength is my weakness, and I don't believe that training myself into the ground is the key to me getting stronger - it's just going to get me fitter but just as weak. For someone strong but unfit there may be more benefit to high volumes and training when tired.
Is 15 days on extreme? Yes, presuming that we're not counting a bit of gentle traversing as an 'on' day. I sure as hell don't know anyone who can train hard for 15 days in a row.
Is it for the elite? Of course.
For the steel tendons? Well you're not going to make it to that if you're injury prone.
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Videoing yourself is extremely useful (sometimes devastating!), but you need to know what to look for if you're trying to 'fault-find' your movement. Knowing if your technique changes when pumped/stressed (as per SA Chris), or seeing which parts of your body you initiate individual moves with are often enlightening. With the latter I look for which part of me moves first when making an individual hand move (sometimes knee, CoG, head, shoulders) and try it with individual foot moves aswell. It helps to have a camera that can play back frame-by-frame at about 30 fps for this.
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Thank you for the suggestions everyone. I'm a sucker for getting sucked into what others are doing but also I don't have much variety in my sessions. This I believe I need to develop.
I also noticed this move at 7.17 and 7.20 ish, a cross between a pogo and a drop knee. New to me!
Video #1: BD athlete Adam Ondra bouldering in Fontainebleau, France (http://vimeo.com/35171521)
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My tuppenceworth
Video is useful at the very least to get an idea of how unshaky/weak you look on the rock compared with how you feel. The first time i saw any footage of me i actually asked who the idiot was that was climbing like a sloth and then randomly giving up on the problem, only to be told it was me. I had a;ways imagined that iclimbed pretty fast and was always relatively out of control.
As far as type/volume of training Nibs is bang on the money; I would only add that you shouldn't swap whatever training has gotten you to where you are now, for whatever new method you read about, you have to try and slowly integrate new stuff.
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Re days on. I used to climb with a couple of lads who would generally rest after 8 or 9 days, or on a trip maybe after 2 weeks +. Long 8 hr days falling off projects (upto 8c), so mostly power endurance. They had started young and just kept climbing because they liked it, not as a training strategy. The moral? it takes years to build up that endurance ( and bouldering's different) . And you might consider moving to Provence, that helped quite a bit.
PS, I've got my doubts about any interview authored by a middle-aged grocer from Albert Square
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The first time i saw any footage of me i actually asked who the idiot was that was climbing like a sloth and then randomly giving up on the problem, only to be told it was me. I had a;ways imagined that iclimbed pretty fast and was always relatively out of control.
The first time I saw a video of me skiing I had the same experience, "Who's twat at the back skiing like he's sat in an armchair? He's shite"........... "Oh".
I imagine we all climb a lot slower than we think. Recently, having thought I dropped down and moved off a hold quickly as I was struggling I was told by a friend, "You looked really strong on that, you were hanging there for ages".
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You don't you know you want to be much stronger than him he is weak and he's a cunt...
As for the lots of days on, I have always done lots of days on because it works for me, and because in the UK it rains all the time so you spend half your life trying to be fresh and then it rains when you are not in work. I am definitely stronger when I rest, but part of what I want to be able to do is climb at a reasonable level everyday. Plus in training everything works but nothing works for very long, so i might do lots of days on for a few months then change to resting a lot more for a while. I fucked up this time round cos when the good weather came I was screwed and was never going to be on good form. But I am placing what I am doing around historical knowledge that the good sustained weather in Wales will come in feb.
Plus a breeze block is light when you are heavy, I would happily sacrifice my strength to be 50 something KG instead of 80kg, but some things are not negotiable. And then I wouldn't have had the pleasure of arm wrestling local stead heads and burning them off on pinches on my beams at afterpartys. Ah the good old bad old days. :)
As for video footage it is genius and makes a massive difference to help spot errors and convince yourself that you are close to doing a move. Unfortunately I struggle to get over the feeling like a twat with a tripod and camera at the crag.
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The first time i saw any footage of me i actually asked who the idiot was that was climbing like a sloth and then randomly giving up on the problem, only to be told it was me. I had a;ways imagined that iclimbed pretty fast and was always relatively out of control.
I imagine we all climb a lot slower than we think. Recently, having thought I dropped down and moved off a hold quickly as I was struggling I was told by a friend, "You looked really strong on that, you were hanging there for ages".
:agree:
It's shocking isn't it. I knew i climbed slowly, but when watching a bit of footage of myself just thought 'f*** me this is boring, when's he going to do something?' I think that pacing, rather than just going faster is the crucial thing to get however. Watch Ste Mac climb; he's deliberate, but quick when he needs to be.
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I get similar comments on the few occassions I boulder in company. I'm often told that I was looking really strong and steady: very slow but staticing every hold in control until I unexpectedly came off. Whereas, my subjective feeling was one of rapid progress, only failing after a prolonged and courageous struggle during which I was shaking like a shitting dog! I guess it supports the view that, like most people it seems, I climb far too slowly and aren't really tapping my reserves.
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Moose, your climbing speed varies from glacial to OAP wandering around a supermarket pace depending on whether it's your first route of the day or your last. I'm not sure memory cards exist that are large enough to record one of your ascents!
I think that in the time it takes you to do one fifth of the CYL traverse others have done the whole thing so you might as well take the 8b+ tick.
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It's sad but true. I don't go to climbing movement masterclasses; I instead watch videos of sloths and creeping ivy. My approach is based on a vain hope that gravity has a boredom threshold.
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It's sad but true. I don't go to climbing movement masterclasses; I instead watch videos of sloths and creeping ivy. My approach is based on a vain hope that gravity has a boredom threshold.
:lol:
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This probably sounds stupid, but any time I watch a video of me the first thing that strikes me is how long my legs are. I know I'm tall, and I've got long arms, but I guess from my perspective my legs never actually look that long.
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Father Ted explains perspective (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vbd3E6tK2U#noexternalembed)
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No, that explains why feet look tiny, when they are actually mahoosive.
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That pogo stick technique works even better with a weight on the moving leg:
Johnny Dawes Climbs in Roller Skates (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3etXIRf6a8#ws)
A few downsides with this particular weight, but maybe an ankle weight could be used for the odd specialist problem.