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the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: shark on January 06, 2011, 01:02:39 pm
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I have found that even when just sport climbing that you can take time out to have a days trad climbing at an ego ticklingly high enough grade if you are selective about the routes so they are complementary to the sport climbing.
For example I only had 2 days trad in 2009 but on one day managed an E4 and the second (a few months later) an E5 - both 3 star classics and relatively untraumatic.
I thought it would be good to identify a ticklist for the Sport Climber who might want to do a few trad routes. The criteria for inclusion are :
1. Bomber gear not too spaced
2. Three stars - if you are only going to do a couple of trad routes they've got to be good ones
3. Gently overhanging in a way that is easily manageable if you have sport climbing fitness and safer for falling off
4. Not crack climbs
From memory the type of routes I have done or attempted that fall into the category are things like:
Mammoth Direct, Run Fast Run Free and the Cow at Gogarth
Ocean Boulevard, Mother Africa and Wall of the Worlds at Swanage
Break On Through, Fay and Pacemaker at Sharpnose
Flakey Wall and Mad Max at High Tor
Get Some In and Yellow Pearls at Pembroke
Slender Loris at Malham
Warpath at Rhoscolyn
Any other sugesstions .....
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The Rasp at Higgar?
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Not sure about Warpath, its soft at the grade but not really a sport climb. Likewise Slender Loris, just 'cos its got a bolt........
I'd add most things on the Cromlech, there's a run out on Right Wall but the nature of the climbing is very similar to sport climbing and the gear is placed from rests.
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Trilogy: Raven Crag Langdale
Penal Servitude: Reecastle
The Rasp: Higgar Tor
Bat Out of Hell: Higgar Tor
Inacessible: Ina's Rock, Churnet
Just Klingon: Pembroke
The Sloth: Roaches
Eye of the Tiger: Dovedale
Witch Hunt: Pembroke
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Doesn't Trilogy have a fiddly RP crux start?
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Balas and Central Wall at Kilnsey.
There must be some stuff at Blue Scar, Central wall or Priapsm (sp?)
Left Wall, Brimham?
Ressurection, The Cromlech
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Right Wall is a bit too runout for most straight off the Sport Climbing bench though it is significantly disproportionately easier for the fit.
Not thought about grit. The Rasp is a bit too manly, grunty and painful to be recommended but yes Bat out of Hell fits the bill.
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2 suggestions (right next to each other!) at Shorn Cliff:
Lundy Calling: Fairly good (but mostly small) gear, face climbing on positive crimps. There's a peg and a thread as well so bits of it feel nice and safe! Felt damn easy for E4.
Sport Grade: 6b
Faff Grade: Moderate (I had some trouble placing the first gear above the little roof at the beginning, was glad I had a skyhook!)
Fear Grade: not too bad at all
The English Opium Eaters: Used to be a sport route: 2 pegs, then 3 bolts (which have been chopped), then another peg. You do the crux with a peg by your waist. Things do then get a little bit run out above a microwire (unless I climbed past some placements, which is possible!) but it's fairly straightforward if you don't get pumped. Alternatively, you could traverse along and clip the thread on Lundy Calling if you don't like the look of the run out. In the guide as E6, which is very good for the ego!
Sport grade: 7a
Faff grade: Easy (only one bit of non in-situ gear to place, and you can take both hands off to do so)
Fear grade: A bit scary unless you get involved with some side runners.
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Balas and Central Wall at Kilnsey.
There must be some stuff at Blue Scar, Central wall or Priapsm (sp?)
Left Wall, Brimham?
Ressurection, The Cromlech
:thumbsup: Spot on Andy - you know the type of routes I'm on about.
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:thumbsup: Spot on Andy - you know the type of routes I'm on about.
I'd contest that Central Wall is more run out than Right Wall and with more hanging around to place gear.
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2 suggestions (right next to each other!) at Shorn Cliff:
Are these routes genuine classics on good rock? - my experience of the Wye Valley hasnt been great !
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:thumbsup: Spot on Andy - you know the type of routes I'm on about.
I'd contest that Central Wall is more run out than Right Wall and with more hanging around to place gear.
I'm happy to bow to your more recent experience as its 20 years since I did Central Wall
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Oh and what about the routes at Nesscliffe ?
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I'd give them both 2 or probably 3 stars. Everything else I did or saw at Shorn Cliff was bollocks! If they in Cheedale and fully bolted TEOE would be similar to but better than The Corniceman or Quality Control I reckon, might even be up there with Darl pitch 1.
Disclaimer: it's possible I was overly excited by the softness of the grades... :-[
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Its been 15 years since I led anything hard on trad, but Last Tango in Paris (Vivian) is one slab you can nail full of gear all the way up, and Cemetry Gates at the Cromlech was also very well protected...
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I would guess Central Wall fits the general group of basically safe and steepish routes with positive holds that suit sport climbing skills even though it is a bit runout'ish in places.
On the same crag you've also got the Shootist with well protected sustained climbing, also Great White which I haven't done but looked relatively well protected when I belayed somebody on it.
Chee Tor has a few - Queer Street (though actually I thought it was bloody hard for E3), Splintered Perspex, Mortlocks, Apocalypse - not all absolute classics but quality routes.
Must be loads at Pembroke - Bloody Sunday and the routes on the Castle come to mind.
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I'd agree with Left Wall at Brimham - 3 boulder problems between rests and good gear. Not sure about the Blue Scar suggestions - I found Central Wall very bold at the bottom but steady, the gear on the harder bit is good though. The Shootist and Blue Grit at the same crag would be a better bet. A few other thoughts :-
Doubting Thomas - Malham
Golden Mile - Chee Tor
Headhunter - The Leap
Fascist and Me - Trevallen
John Wayne - St. Govans
Rimsky Korsakov - The Pass
Holocaust/Genocide - Dow
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Agree on Left Wall at Brimham. Only seconded it but it seemed stead away.
Wolfman Jack on Lundy?
Must be lots of routes at Pembroke, but can't recall many. What is your lower threshold grade?
Rock Idol?
Strait Gate?
Brazen Butteress?
Sinecure?
Loads of the stuff in Second Geo at Sheigra. And possibly some of the harder stuff at the outer end of First Geo, but not done them myself. Sadly I doubt very few of you will ever experience the joy of them.
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Pembroke seems have an almost endless list of routes that will fit the criteria, I've said before that it feels like trad climbing for a sport climber down there.
Supersonic, thought the crux of this was the same as on Flakey Wall.
Midnight Summer Dream on Chee Tor, a tad run out but not so bad and it's above a bolt, then a thread. Also thought Queer Street really hard for E3
Positron, vaguely cracky on the pumpy pitch, but not a crack climb in that sense of the word.
Reecastle has a good few routes, Guillotine, Thumbscrew, White Noise (it's not really crack climbing) and someone already mentioned Penile Servitude
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Wolfman Jack on Lundy?
I thought about that one and would agree on the 2nd pitch, the 1st however is distinctly traditional in a wide crack kind of way, especially if damp and lacking in big gear...
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Probably right, don't recall having much difficulty on it. Tradhead me.
Although to be fair, it involving 2 pitches and an abseil approach and on a fairly remote island devoid of bolts will probably not be visited by any sportclimbers anyway.
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Bloody Sunday - You don't get more sport like than this
Just Klingon - or maybe you do? in-situ slings all the way, then a fulmar to ensure a trad like tick?
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Rock Idol?
I'd agree, I definately hung around for a while looking at the steep pointy jugs thinking "really?"
Strait Gate?
Brazen Butteress?
Sinecure?
Strait Gate and BB both follow crack lines and whilst they're exceedingly well protected they didn't feel like sport climbs to me. Sinecure felt like it should be made of slate.
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Well they may follow crack lines, but they aren't exactly crack climbs. The two can be mutually exclusive.
I thought Sinecure was just well protected steady slab / wall climbing, and quite different to the rest of Barcud. But granted the wrong side of vertical to meet Shark's criteria. Although you are highly unlikely to fall off.
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Australia - lots in the steep trad face category at Arapiles, usually bomber gear.
They also have those fucking stupid carrot bolts that you have to fiddle plates on before clipping so it feels like trad (faffing with gear) but is climbing like sport climbing as its on bolts (although my experience of them is that they aren't to be trusted as some were very short and not that deep in the rock and I came across a few that wobbled)
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Re: Nesscliffe, Cones & Current would be the obvious choice, being E4/5 with plenty of gear but tough moves between (nice monos!). This would require you not to be freaked out by the rock mind, though if you're suggesting the average sport climber would be relaxed on The Cow I guess its a non-issue.
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Re: Nesscliffe, Cones & Current would be the obvious choice, being E4/5 with plenty of gear but tough moves between (nice monos!). This would require you not to be freaked out by the rock mind, though if you're suggesting the average sport climber would be relaxed on The Cow I guess its a non-issue.
Nice one - not heard of that route. Re the Cow again my memory may be playing tricks on me - I just remember it being a juggy romp.
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Yosemite Wall, Malham
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Yosemite Wall, Malham
That's more spot climbing for trad climbers ;)
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Lean Machine at Swanage must be the ultimate.
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I reckon...
Pembroke: Luke Skywalker, Grezelda... Pembroke is littered with appropriate routes
Grit: London Wall
Peak Lime: Supersonic (high tor)
North Wales: Foil, Pulsar, Demetreus (Idwal), Mau Mau, Electric Blue, Centrefold (Both Rhoscolyn - more straightforward than Warpath), Energy Crisis, The Cruise (both Gogarth Upper tier), Cockblock (run out but safe).
I'd say these are all routes that you need a bit of oomph for, are safe, but you need to get out above your gear.
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Behemoth @WCJ. Take some friends, fits various especially 1.5. and don't underestimate low wall, technically hardest bit.
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39 Slaps (Scimitar) - well it is a clip up ... sort of.
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1. Bomber gear not too spaced
2. Three stars - if you are only going to do a couple of trad routes they've got to be good ones
3. Gently overhanging in a way that is easily manageable if you have sport climbing fitness and safer for falling off
4. Not crack climbs
This is pretty much my criteria for routes to try and push myself on a bit this year, with the possible exception of point 3 as I tend to favour routes which aren't mega pumpy. With this in mind could people do me a favour and flag any of their route suggestions which are pump-fests.
In particular I would be interested to hear more of people's thoughts on the style of Resurrection, Flaky Wall and Warpath as they are all high on my to do list. Ta.
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Res: full of good rests bomber gear and a slab to finish.
P.S. Surely The Rasp is the definitive sort of this route. Obvious gear and jug-hauling....
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Hell's Wall (F7c/+) - Bowderstone Crag
Bleed in Hell (F8a+) - Bowderstone Crag
The Shining Path (F7b/+) - Dow Crag
All climb like sport climbs and are protected by more pegs than the equivalent number of bolts that would be used.
Cockblock (F7b) - Grochan
Power endurance route with bomber gear and a safe fall out.
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Res: full of good rests bomber gear and a slab to finish.
Hmm, I'm running out of excuses not to go and get on this. :-\
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Of the many choices at Pembroke, manzoku really stands out to me at that grade - it takes tons of wires, the holds are big and it's pretty steep. Rock idol as mentioned would seem like another good pick.
Not sure if you would class it as steep enough but most of the routes on the suspension bridge buttress at Avon have loads of thread opportunities, steep pumpy climbing and good holds.
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A lot of stuff on GO wall would fit the bill, Hyena Cage, Dog Eat Dog, The Jackal etc.
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Not sure if you would class it as steep enough but most of the routes on the suspension bridge buttress at Avon have loads of thread opportunities, steep pumpy climbing and good holds.
Which ones ?
That reminds me though on the other side Arms Race, Them, Mirage and Low Profile (not done) off the ramp are contenders for the list.
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Not sure if you would class it as steep enough but most of the routes on the suspension bridge buttress at Avon have loads of thread opportunities, steep pumpy climbing and good holds.
Which ones ?
That reminds me though on the other side Arms Race, Them, Mirage and Low Profile (not done) off the ramp are contenders for the list.
Bold as Love - that's another clip-up.
A38 in the Trym Valley is a great contender, even if it is a crack.
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39 Slaps (Scimitar) - well it is a clip up ... sort of.
Roc Ness Monster. Killerkranky and King Wad probably fit the bill.
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Fast and Furious, Dove Crag. 7a+ with obvious wire placements and a peg/thread protected crux.
Or the harder ones if you're fit.
Depends what grade you're after. There are plenty of 3 star well-protected E6/7s in the Lakes with 7b+ - 7c+ climbing. Best stick to Wales if you want an easy tick ;)
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Res: full of good rests bomber gear and a slab to finish.
Hmm, I'm running out of excuses not to go and get on this. :-\
Well, one of the good rests needs the ability to jam, the bomber gear does have the odd runout from it, and the slab is about an 85% slab...
I haven't really specialised in these routes as they are usually waaaay too pumpy and mercilessly punish not being able to get the gear in quickly. I prefer my steep sport-style jug hauling to be easy, and loose.
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Grezelda Grezelda in pembroke. Good protection the whole way but big and pumpy.Maybe 7b and flippin mega.
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Arms Race 6c+, Them 6c, Mirage 6c+, and Low Profile 7a/+ ... off the ramp are all prime candidates.
Good idea! Can we have sport routes for trad. climbers next?
Also at Brissle, on main wall, Central Wall 7a and Main Wall Eliminate 7a are both essentially clip-ups with the shared crux bolted. Think Pink 6b+ is probably on the list but the usual first pitch, Krapp's Last Tape 5+ R/X, emphatically isn't.
Not so sure about SBB. The two physically harder routes, GT Special and Nemo Me Impune Lacessit, are both a bit pokey with fiddly gear.
Can I have West Route 7b(?) at Cheddar? Most of the other candidates here seem to have been retro'ed.
Right Wall (ledge-clipping fall from the top crux if you are unlucky) or The Cow (easier if you can thin-hands jam, some 'interesting' rock) are both 'easy' E5s but don't play to sport climber strengths.
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Grezelda Grezelda in pembroke. Good protection the whole way but big and pumpy.Maybe 7b and flippin mega.
Good call. Do you know anything about the routes either side ? Obsession Box and Knock Yourself Out ?
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Knock yourself out got put up to E6 as it was desperate. Sellers made his train noises on it I believe, so that's never a good sign.
One thing I would say about Box Zawn is I've been trying to get down there for years - you need good tides, no swell and no blazing sun. Tis an issue with a few Pembs routes (Circus Circus being another). If you are just looking for the odd trad hit, there are more reliably 'in' routes to go for. The ones in Stennis Ford are good as they aren't v tide affected, nor do they get the sun.
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Its a typical british situation i.e. two routes next to each other with the same grade but very different propositions. Obsession Box gets e6 too but sounds much more gnarly and hard (7cish from what i've heard). Go for Grezelda (easier and better). Knock yourself out is e5 isn't it? Don't know anything about this. Box Zawn is well impressive though.
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King Wad's an obvious one and Rimsky Korsakov too.
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Wicked Gravity (E5 6b) is a v pumpy super well protected route at St Govan's. Even has a lower off. Warm up on Tangerine Dream (well protected E4) nearby.
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The ones in Stennis Ford are good as they aren't v tide affected, nor do they get the sun.
Indeed, add these to the list for the fitter stronger sport climber!
From a distance (e7) - 7c
Point Blank (e8) - 8a
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Which ones ?
That reminds me though on the other side Arms Race, Them, Mirage and Low Profile (not done) off the ramp are contenders for the list.
That's a good call.
I was thinking of things like Earl of Perth, Suspense (I think I may have protected this entirely with threads), Limbo etc. They obviously aren't as suitable as some of the higher grade contenders being mentioned, but for the sub and lowest E grades you probably can't get all of your requirements ticked perfectly just because continuously overhanging is hard - they've got good holds, good gear, steep climbing for the grade and good quality.
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Perfect Day at Gardoms,
Offspring
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Wicked Gravity (E5 6b) is a v pumpy super well protected route at St Govan's. Even has a lower off. Warm up on Tangerine Dream (well protected E4) nearby.
I thought Wicked Gravity had fallen down? I remember some very hollow sounding holds on it.
Space Face routes are an obvious choice... Just Klingon, Hyperspace, but maybe not that horrible E4 that comes in from further right (Mother Night??)
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Lean Machine has to be the ultimate; overhanging all the way and cracks for gear all the way. Juggy Spanish 7a.
Maybe Darkinbad, asides from the start?
vulture-tremadog
tales of Yankee power-high tor
black grub-beeston
killerkranky-scimitar
cockblock-grochan
deja vu-kilnsey
wee doris-stoney(actually most things at stoney, they all have tricky moves between good breaks)
snakebite wall-holyhead
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Lean Machine has to be the ultimate; overhanging all the way and cracks for gear all the way. Juggy Spanish 7a.
Maybe Darkinbad, asides from the start?
vulture-tremadog
tales of Yankee power-high tor
black grub-beeston
killerkranky-scimitar
cockblock-grochan
deja vu-kilnsey
wee doris-stoney(actually most things at stoney, they all have tricky moves between good breaks)
snakebite wall-holyhead
There's no getting around that you have to do the start of Darkinbad which is scary as fuck even when it isn't greasy. Wee Doris has an unprotected start too and the start of Deja Vu is pokey. Tales is definitely a bit too spicy too.
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There's no getting around that you have to do the start of Darkinbad which is scary as fuck even when it isn't greasy.
Can't you stick-clip that bit?
(You could start up Black Magic)
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Inaccessible - Ina's Rock (though the thrutchy E2 first pitch might prove tricky for some sport climbers)
A Step in the Light green - Heptonstall - Super safe and super soft
Stuffed Badger - Nettle Buttress - Really good hybrid route (one bolt, one thread and trad gear), recently replaced bolt
Nettle Wine - Cratcliffe
Go to the Burren, there are loads there.
Lip of Fools - eatswood - 8a (about font 7c) standard climbing on crimps with babybouncer gear
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Jon - did you forget your own route at Hipley Hill ?
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Yep The Great Tribulation fits the bill. Gear beta useful on it though as a couple of the low placements are unobvious. Still needs a second ascent too. Did say it was about sport route 7c when I wrote it up initial, but in hindsight I reckon it might be more like 7c+ and english tech 6c.
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Its a typical british situation i.e. two routes next to each other with the same grade but very different propositions. Obsession Box gets e6 too but sounds much more gnarly and hard (7cish from what i've heard). Go for Grezelda (easier and better). Knock yourself out is e5 isn't it? Don't know anything about this. Box Zawn is well impressive though.
Did Knock Yourself Out with Vickers and I think he might have made train noises too.
Seconded Obsession Box behind Caff and it wasn't to bad for E6 on the blunt end (possibly harder than the other 2 though) def not f7c, very safe after the start bit (pulling through the roof) which is a little fiddly to protect.
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Seconded Obsession Box behind Caff and it wasn't to bad for E6 on the blunt end (possibly harder than the other 2 though) def not f7c, very safe after the start bit (pulling through the roof) which is a little fiddly to protect.
My sources have let me down there. Balls!
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2 suggestions (right next to each other!) at Shorn Cliff:
Are these routes genuine classics on good rock? - my experience of the Wye Valley hasnt been great !
Lundy Calling is superb. And was only easy E3 when I did it in '91.
I've just checked my old Wye Valley guide and I've written "INCREDIBLE" next to the route description.
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Seconded Obsession Box behind Caff and it wasn't to bad for E6 on the blunt end (possibly harder than the other 2 though) def not f7c, very safe after the start bit (pulling through the roof) which is a little fiddly to protect.
Is that the one I took pictures of back in Sept? If so Caff looked like he was having a bit of a harder time than billy-blunt-end did...
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39 Slaps (Scimitar) - well it is a clip up ... sort of.
didn't you pull a peg out or was it a hold off?
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i seem to remember j saying all the pegs were sawn off to fit in shallow placements? so hefty looking (20 year old )pegs might not be as great as they look?
sorry memory not great.
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You're right, I pulled off a hold near the start before doing it.
The recommendation was (more than) slightly ironic. The route is a clip up only in the sense there are/were 7 (?) pegs and you don't place any gear. But you're also right that the pegs are all either sawn off or tied off. I remember thinking it was physically a superb 7b/+
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Wicked Gravity (E5 6b) is a v pumpy super well protected route at St Govan's. Even has a lower off. Warm up on Tangerine Dream (well protected E4) nearby.
I thought Wicked Gravity had fallen down? I remember some very hollow sounding holds on it.
Not sure. I know Public Enemy (further right) fell down in December 2005, just a couple of months after Nic and I did it.
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According to UKC Wicked Gravity has fallen down.
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So the last two suggestions for 'Trad Routes for Sport Climbers' have included a route with several half buried sawn off pegs that rip out and another that has fallen down.... I hear the Indian Face is only 7b+ :P
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You're right, I pulled off a hold near the start before doing it.
The recommendation was (more than) slightly ironic. The route is a clip up only in the sense there are/were 7 (?) pegs and you don't place any gear. But you're also right that the pegs are all either sawn off or tied off. I remember thinking it was physically a superb 7b/+
i remember now, i was trying it with you and i couldn't do the start after you pulled off the hold and then you got stung by a bee when you topped out.
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Whovever suggested cockblock in on crack, essentially a boulder problem it does really have one piece of gear which is really strenuous to place and is a spicy height above some crap rps. All on that shiny grochan rock,urgh.
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resurrecting a fine thread that i only just read....
Whovever suggested cockblock in on crack,
indeed. Darkinbad, despite its amazingness fulfills none of the original post's requirements either.
Pretty Girls Make Graves E6 in the pass: 7b ish with very good gear.
Many of the pen trywn trad routes fit the bill: Mr Olympia E5 particularly comes to mind.
Mammoth Direct? really? It certainly doesn't look too sport climbery! run fast run free E5 on upper tier is probably suitable though.
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what about the routes above carreg hylldrem bouldering wall? steep, gear ( looks dubious though), not very high so like a power sport route maybe? and a lower off/ abb off to boot. cant comment on the climbing but it seems to fit the bill apart from the dubious looking gear but its already in place.
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Stuff on the Ramp in Avon; Lost Illusions (7b on pegs), Low profile (7a, good pegs and wires), Arms Race (6c, bomber gear). Bold as love is probably a bit too reliant on tied off blade pegs to fit the bill, but it is a superb 7b+ is route.
Get some In must be the definitive pembroke candidate.
Hunger on the main cliff? especially the first pitch
Agree with King Wad, and add Killerkranky to that.
Lean Machine, Wall of the worlds, and mother africa are all contenders too
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..also at Avon, Think Pink (crux has 2 solid bolts) Rest has good gear.
Nearby - Split Rock. Most routes there fit the bill - Rustic Direct (E3) bomber gear. Red Rag to a Bull (E5). Brazen Hussy (soft E5) Tricky Dicky (soft E5) - a bit run out near the start but not dangerous.
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See JohnM post earlier in this thread re Shining Path on Dow. Myself and RobinB were up there this weekend and abbed down this route. frcc website - http://www.frcc.co.uk/crag_print.asp?crag_id=31 (http://www.frcc.co.uk/crag_print.asp?crag_id=31) notes that the second peg has been pulled out. The pegs that are left, particularly the 3rd, are in a very poor state. I see the route has been led without the pegs but it isn't clear whether this means without the second peg or all of them and whether, or if, it's possible to place reasonable gear as a backup or instead of the pegs.
If you are intending to ground up this route beware and I certainly wouldn't now propose it as a trad route for sports climbers.
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Some of the stuff in the Lancs quarries must fit the bill.
King of Kings (E6 6c, F7c/+ on mostly pegs), Septic Think Tank (E5 6b, F7a/+, 3 pegs and a few friends), Please lock me Away (E5 6b, F7a?, 3 pegs), Karma Mechanic (E5/6 6c F7a+?, Peg and bolt!) all at Anglezarke. Must be loads in Wilton, Constables Overhang jumps out as an obvious one (E5 6b, bomber gear, at least 1 peg F7a/+, F.A. Hank P 1974 :o)
Andy F
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Lip of Fools - eatswood - 8a (about font 7c) standard climbing on crimps with babybouncer gear
And here it is as the proposed Font 7c
Ned repeating Lip of Fools (E7 6c) courtesy of Wild Country/Outcrop Films (https://twitter.com/#!/wildcountryuk/status/146630423471067136)
(http://hphotos-sjc1.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/339146_10150418302598595_97486098594_8496923_939708483_o.jpg)
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Fuck me, good effort for soloing that. Kids today etc.
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Damn right, the topout is awkward too which must have been a bit interesting, sans rope!
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Ned wisely opted for finishing leftwards as per Hot Yiminy rather than finish we did. This is deffo the sensible option/logical line for highballers. I suggested he do it that way. Doesn’t make any difference to highball grade or quality. Also the top of the block was wet, which would have been horrendous on the original finish.
Nice pic. Was gutted I missed seeing the ascent (had to faff around sheff changing lighbulbs on car!).
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Good effot to Ned on a great line. I assume a pad was slung in a near-by tree keeping with local traditions.
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Was gutted I missed seeing the ascent (had to faff around sheff changing lighbulbs on car!).
well at least its on film goose.
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nice... impressive ascent.
To drag the thread back to its origins though....
White Life E5 (and pretty much Fr 7b!) is a sound choice.