I agree Andy. I've not visited Carn Vellan, and I'm not really that into sport climbing, but I have seen the photos of chopped bolts and they were a total disgrace. Anything that will clear that awful mess up is welcome in my view. From what I gathered most people in the SW (and beyond) seemed to support the notion of CV being a sport crag, although the issue of bolts being placed elsewhere seemed a bit more contentious.
Are you proposing to do the clear-up/ rebolting yourself?
I've proposed that the original bolted lines be re equipped and the mess left by the bolt choppers repaired. Nothing more nothing less. I haven't really said anything other than that their should be a debate.
I've proposed that the original bolted lines be re equipped and the mess left by the bolt choppers repaired. Nothing more nothing less. I haven't really said anything other than that their should be a debate.
:agree: I'm with you Andy - CV is pretty much an anomaly and as such should be viewed very differently to the traditional coastal crags. The (blatantalleged) actions of uncle Mark aren't helping the cause. I guess next time there is an area meet those of us living on the SW peninsular should pull our fingers out, turn up and make our votes count against them city folk. From what I understand the most recent vote was very close and if more of us 'locals' (the majority of whom agree with you) had turned up it could have swung the other way. It is a shame that with strong feelings the choppers didn't consider the damage they were inflicting on the rock that they'd claim to be protecting :'(
Yours
M G Edwards
I've always supported this venue as a sport route, but don't hold out too much hope of progress on this issue. The problem in my mind is that there's no chance of local climbers viewing the establishment of Carn Vellan as an issue in isolation. The climbers who took the bolts out originally have for too long intimately connected the bolting of Carn Vellan with the actions of Mark and Rowland Edwards and simply can't dissociate the two issues any more. When you add this to the general strong feeling against bolts in Cornwall anyway I can't help feel that, even if a BMC area meeting gave it's blessing to such action, the bolts would be quickly vandalised again.
CV is pretty much an anomaly and as such should be viewed very differently to the traditional coastal crags.
CV is pretty much an anomaly and as such should be viewed very differently to the traditional coastal crags.
Why do you think this? I understand the reasoning (big, steep killas) in terming it an "anomaly"; I don't understand why this means it ought be treated differently to the nearby granite/less steep cliffs. The obvious counter to your statement is that the "anomaly" should mean that it is protected from being bolted.
And in all seriousness, what would bolting this small cliff achieve? Unlikely to be anything less than high 7s, in a something of a backwater that, save for the actions of a few, is staunchly "trad". Tiny numbers of local climbers, most of whom won't climb at the level required by these routes. A new 8b for the beasts on here to climb? Dave Mac for one has the abilities to consider climbing some of the lines on natural pro. Monster Munch was given 8b+: if this was climbed/graded correctly that's 2 or 3 grades easier than he regards Echo wall. Rewind was given what as a sport route (formerly called Blue Sky Lightning)? 1025 was claimed at 7c. None of these routes, if bolted, would even get close to offering envelope-pushing standards. Comparisons with Malham etc are silly: what Carn Vellan could provide is really what should be being asked.
edit I've read the minutes Andy linked to: good points made by Stu Littlefair & Ken P, but neither are very compelling. I think historical precedent shows once bolts are in that is unlikely, though by no means impossible or would be unique, that a keen young gun will chop them in order to climb them on pro.
As I wrote earlier in the thread above, the really perverse thing about Carn Vellan is that policy has been effectively set by Bristol climbers, who seem more than happy to have plenty of sport climbing available locally to them (the other end of Brean, much of Cheddar, sundry Wye Valley stuff, etc), yet get very uptight about cliffs 200 miles away ...:agree:
"bolts are allowed in quarries but not gritstone or sandstone quarries, unless they have been there for a very long time ... "
This means that climbers will not find bolts on mountain cliffs or the majority of outcrop crags or sea cliffs
Good luck with this. Judging from the 2005 experience, perhaps the key tactic for the 2nd October would be to set up a road block on the M5 around, say, Taunton, to ensure only local locals get to vote?
Good luck with this. Judging from the 2005 experience, perhaps the key tactic for the 2nd October would be to set up a road block on the M5 around, say, Taunton, to ensure only local locals get to vote?
Where are the easy sport routes going to be?Cheddar !?! :shrug:Good luck with this. Judging from the 2005 experience, perhaps the key tactic for the 2nd October would be to set up a road block on the M5 around, say, Taunton, to ensure only local locals get to vote?
Remember that several Bristol climbers also showed support for the bolts.
Besides, where are the easy sport routes going to be?
Apparently under the proposed solution then parts of Carn Gowla are in danger of becoming sport crags. :wall:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=427411&new=6050917#x6049981 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=427411&new=6050917#x6049981)
just been reading this thread and trying not to get involved...I suppose its fairly predictable. I was also a bit dismayed with the 'news' item on UKC especially the use of the Bosigran photo.
Classic traditional climbing in Cornwall at Bosigran. But will it stay that way?all a bit daily mail.
just been reading this thread and trying not to get involved...I suppose its fairly predictable.
2. Penwith and Cornish climbers who wish to develop sport climbing in Cornwall should have the same opportunity to develop crags in their local areas just like the rest of the UK.
I haven't done much in Cornwall, nor have I been to Carn Vellan. On that basis I don't feel qualified to offer an opinion on bolting.
However I object strongly to this:Quote2. Penwith and Cornish climbers who wish to develop sport climbing in Cornwall should have the same opportunity to develop crags in their local areas just like the rest of the UK.
What nonsense. Whether or not the rock lends itself towards bolt protection is a purely a question of geomorphology, not equal opportunities.
I understand why the sentiment has been expressed but I think you've made a grave error in including it. It sends out completely the wrong message; a massive own goal with such an emotive issue as this.
Quotei've been in enough bolt/ access meetings to know that opening with grandiose statements about your 'rights' is precisely the worst way to go about things.
Yeah I can imagine that ...
Still it is not clear to me that there are any universal principles here. As posted higher in the thread, and on the Borg in the past, I am still waiting for anyone at all to articulate the "rules" of British bolting, consistent with all the currently-bolted venues, in less than 100 words or even a short paperback. I agree with you that geomorphology should be the only guide, but that's clearly not the current status quo.
Geomorphology is the combination of the geology of an area and the processes that geology has undergone to produce the landforms that we see in the present day. It's a better term than geology in this context, as rock type alone is not a good indicator of whether bolting is appropriate (i.e Pembroke Limestone vs yorkshire limestone, or high tor vs raven tor, etc). Quarrying could also be considered as anthropogenic geomorphology.
I can't remember what the quote is from a Man for All Seasons, but you being a well red lot probably know the one I mean.
Anthropogenic/geomorphologically speaking Carn Vellan is interesting. Upon entering Pendeen village, parking and walking to the base of the crag one walks entirely through/on a post industrial landscape, the cliff itself shows plenty of evidence of having been worked.
I am still waiting for anyone at all to articulate the "rules" of British bolting, consistent with all the currently-bolted venues, in less than 100 words or even a short paperback
Witches Point would be one. A bolted natural limestone sea-cliff on the same south Wales coastline (give or take a hundred miles) as the aggressively bolt-purged South Pembroke natural limestone sea-cliffs.
Witches Point would be one. A bolted natural limestone sea-cliff on the same south Wales coastline (give or take a hundred miles) as the aggressively bolt-purged South Pembroke natural limestone sea-cliffs.
Forgot about Witches Point. Must be a full 5 miles from Ogmore, which is staunchly bolt free. I was thinking of the sport crags on Gower.
http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/gower/Gower%20Index.htm (http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/gower/Gower%20Index.htm) some of which are quarries, some not.
Is any cliff on Portland a natural sea cliff? Pen Trwyn? The Diamond? Ansteys? Arbroath? Cliffs in S Wales whose name eludes me?
Pen trwyn, Lower Pen Trwyn, and The Diamond are completely natural seacliffs
Last time I pointed out that bolters were like the IRA because they only have to win once Mick banned me, so I won't do that again. Let me make it clear; they're not at all like the IRA, even though they do only have to win once. You'll have to think of your own simile.
Should his reference to someone be deleted though?
So you people want to put bolts into Carn Vellan again.
jcm == johncoxmysteriously (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=37535)???
Now a chess player: never climb
Didn`t I hear that a Czech climber on the International Meet got most of :wall: :wall:the way up a bolted route free? Remember Munich Climb and Wellington Crack.Congratulations on missing the point
jcm == johncoxmysteriously (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=37535)???QuoteNow a chess player: never climb
Should fit right in. Welcome jcm.
Didn`t I hear that a Czech climber on the International Meet got most of :wall: :wall:the way up a bolted route free? Remember Munich Climb and Wellington Crack.
You request a positive argument for bolting Carn Vellan. The best positive argument for bolting is that people like bolted climbs. Sport routes are fun, and we enjoy doing them. Some sport routes are especially double-fun. These are hard, and steep. Like the routes at Carn Vellan. Routes like this are often more fun than if they're de-bolted. So, here's this cliff which isn't currently being used for anything where we can enjoy some of the best sport routes imaginable. We'd like to bolt it please.:agree: :great: :thumbsup:
>This says it all really, he doesn't read, nor listen, nor think
And in terms of a national framework, to the extent that I understand it, the BMC isn't explicitly "anti-bolt"
I'm surprised you totally agree with all my points, Stu, since at least one of them was aimed at you.
You could stress how many more local climbers there are now than there were in 1994 who could reasonably tackle such grades
>This says it all really, he doesn't read, nor listen, nor think
OK, fuck you. Maybe I will take the trouble to drive down and vote against you. And maybe I will chop your bolts if you do put them in. If this is the best you can do, you don't deserve to win this debate. What are you, like, 16?
I would expect postal votes for myself and all my family on the reasonable argument that I live abroad but got married in Cornwall ...
JCM - are/were you ex-OUMC/at the Centenary Ball last year?
I find it so hard to understand why people feel so upset about the prospect of this crag having some sport routes. It seems so massively selfish.
If these routes were cleaned up, properly bolted and received a few ascents then a lot of questions would be answered, a lot of bullshit would be cleared up and a line drawn under the whole sorry mess.
:agree:
JCM - are/were you ex-OUMC/at the Centenary Ball last year?
I find it so hard to understand why people feel so upset about the prospect of this crag having some sport routes. It seems so massively selfish.
Surely Medwards actions should be firmly and blatantly kept IN the record books as evidence of what should never have been done and should never be allowed to happen again?
I don't know a whole lot about this crag but what I do know is mired in the usual Medwards controversy and lies. If these routes were cleaned up, properly bolted and received a few ascents then a lot of questions would be answered, a lot of bullshit would be cleared up and a line drawn under the whole sorry mess. The record books would then show fact rather than lies and guesswork and there would be a nice crag for people to climb on rather than a disused lump of rock with some rotting metal stuck in it.
I think this would be a good thing.
the rope-access bolt ladder recently drilled in Parliament House Cave
the rope-access bolt ladder recently drilled in Parliament House Cave
Has it happened again? Or is this the incident in about 2005 you are referring to?
And as to that, you see, when I contemplate those who want to bolt Carn Vellan, all I can hear is the shrill whine of 'I want. I want. I want.' Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder.
Evidently btw if you were at Oxford you didn't study philosophy, or you would know that our emotions are things we can't control and it is how we act on them that determines whether we are selfish or not.
And as to that, you see, when I contemplate those who don't want to bolt Carn Vellan, all I can hear is the shrill whine of 'I want. I want. I want.' Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder.
You've been very confrontational since your first post, and picking at people in this manner does nothing to encourage people to listen to you. Its clearly a highly emotive subject for you which is why...
QuoteAnd as to that, you see, when I contemplate those who don't want to bolt Carn Vellan, all I can hear is the shrill whine of 'I want. I want. I want.' Selfishness is in the eye of the beholder.
..this sounds somewhat self-referential if the above highlighted word is inserted.
Others sound far more open to discussion and a resolution than yourself.
Do you have a way of modifying posts?
Bloody hell. Your quotes system really sucks
or you would know that our emotions are things we can't control
Fuck you GCWI am so angered by your statement that I am contemplating driving over to your crag and pouring buckets of Peak rain over the holds
Your comment about inefficient use of resources highlights precisely the gulf between us (as you know, of course). To me, the countryside is not a resource we should be exploiting. It's a beautiful place which it's a privilege to go out and explore, and we should be careful to leave it as we found it so far as we can. To me, sticking a line of bolts up a cliff because you can't climb it otherwise is simply ludicrous, exactly on a level with leaving crisp packets behind. Most climbers feel like this to a greater or lesser degree; that's why we don't bolt Stanage (or seacliffs in general), but some more strongly than others, and those are the ones who don't like bolts (on the whole; of course there are other considerations). So you can see that being called selfish by those we regard as litter-droppers isn't helpful.
or you would know that our emotions are things we can't control
Say you are in an argument with one of those eebil atheists and the atheist gets you very angry because he is insulting the one and only Flying Spaghetti Monster. Would you agree that you are genuinely angry? Do you agree that you probably want to say and do things to that person that probably aren't morally right? (I mean really angry) like you want to bash his face through the wall or start insulting him back? How do you turn down your anger? YOU DON'T
As to your overgrading theory, by the way, I saw some videos of 1980's Jerry the other day, and he didn't exactly look like Adam Ondra footworkwise either. I think even the very very good just weren't so good in those days.
Your comment about inefficient use of resources highlights precisely the gulf between us (as you know, of course). To me, the countryside is not a resource we should be exploiting. It's a beautiful place which it's a privilege to go out and explore, and we should be careful to leave it as we found it so far as we can. To me, sticking a line of bolts up a cliff because you can't climb it otherwise is simply ludicrous, exactly on a level with leaving crisp packets behind.
>Back a page or two: "Clearly all that's needed, tedious though it would be, is some tighter definition of who is and who isn't entitled to vote on this sort of stuff, based on location or whatever."
Oh, sorry, was that supposed to be a serious suggestion? I missed it.
Surely before Carn Vellan was debolted there was an area meeting at which it was decided that there should be no drilled placements in Cornish sea cliffs. I'd say that was pretty consensual. Clarion Call by comparison was rebolted within about five minutes.
Like Stuart I'm getting rather unclear now about the timeline on this (a familiar feeling when listening to Edwards apologists, of course). Can someone tell me if this is right?
1990 Meeting declares no bolts on Cornish granite
1991-3 Carn Vellan bolted
1993/4/5 Meeting declares no bolts on Cornish sea-cliffs. '100-signature petition'; second meeting declares no bolts on Cornish sea-cliffs.
1995 Bolts chopped.
2005 Monster Munch re-equipped by unknown climbers (is their identity public knowledge? Those involved seem to know it.)
2005 Car from Bristol decides further meeting which decides no more bolts on CV (and existing should be removed?
2005-10 Were they removed? If not then MM is still presently available and Jasper can nip down there and downgrade MM himself if he wants to.
Is that about right?
Blimey, Simon, I had no idea you were such a horny-handed son of toil yourself. Anyway, I'm afraid I can't be bothered to reply again to the other-climbers-have-placed-pegs-in-the-past-so-bolts-must-be-OK argument, nor the visual-impact straw man.
wibble, wibble, wibble
It's absurd.
Stuart
I wouldn't even say it was the damage to the natural environment exactly, so much as the gratuitous nature of it. The pomposity, the self-obsession, the sheer absurdity of taking a drill to a cliff in order that you can climb up it, when there are so many cliffs to climb without doing that. To me it's got very little to do with the nature of climbing; if cliffs existed with bolts already in them, that would be fine.
After all, presumably you wouldn't like to see Stanage bolted. Why not?
Chalk is obviously deplorable too, and I didn't use it for many years, (nor did some famous anti-bolters of course). But nobody's perfect, and in the end you just give up when it's so apparent that the damage is being done anyway whatever you do. And as perhaps you know, climbing chalked holds without chalk is much more unpleasant than cllimbing unchalked holds without chalk.
I didn't think Des Hannigan actually did the bolt-chopping, but as I say I never understand this point. To me the visual aspect of the thing is a very small part of it, a straw man invented by bolters. The main point is the drilling; you can never undo that and whether you leave some metal or spend ages trying to get it out when you're no expert and may just leave even more unsightly holes in the rock isn't really the point. As I said in the first place, criticising those who cut the bolts really isn't going to help; considerably better would be to go and remove the stubs. Did the people who rebolted Monster Munch remove the old stumps, I wonder? After all, it would have far easier for them to do so with the new bolts in. If not, it wasn't very adroit of the 2005 probolters to publish pictures of the stumps and complain about it.
It would certainly improve relations generally if bolters could be persuaded not to carry on unilateral bolting outside the agreements. Unfortunately those who do these things seldom identify themselves (or perhaps they do, 'in camp'?), and in view of the BMC's present policy of teaching all and sundry how to place bolts and paying for them to do it with my money, without as far as I can see any sort of education at all on where they ought to do this, I don't see much hope of restraining it. On the contrary I think it's set to increase markedly.
Small trivia question, by the way, has any bolter at any time ever removed his own bolts once it was found that they were outside the agreed areas (except for the purpose of climbing their own route without bolts to show how clever they are, of course)? I can't think of one.
I will make a small prediction based on what I've seen on this thread, and that is that if the vote does go the bolters' way this time the bolts on CV will be chopped again. In fact, I wonder if those so minded shouldn't simply announce that that's what will happen and that no further debate will be entered into. It might save some trouble.
By the way, do you really think CV would be the end of it in Cornwall, if it were bolted? I don't. Four sport routes of 7c+ up, wet for most of the year?
Small trivia question, by the way, has any bolter at any time ever removed his own bolts once it was found that they were outside the agreed areas (except for the purpose of climbing their own route without bolts to show how clever they are, of course)? I can't think of one.
I don't know what forums you go on, but 've never seen another forum that has a load of program code appear on the screen when you try and quote someone else's post. It's absurd.It's called bbcode. Once you realise that the text you're doing something with has to have a [whatever] before it matched to a [/whatever] after it, it's very simple. I post on five climbing forums fairly regularly and only one of them doesn't have bbcode (SuperTopo).
I don't know what forums you go on, but 've never seen another forum that has a load of program code appear on the screen when you try and quote someone else's post. It's absurd.I post on five climbing forums fairly regularly and only one of them doesn't have bbcode (SuperTopo).
Small trivia question, by the way, has any bolter at any time ever removed his own bolts once it was found that they were outside the agreed areas (except for the purpose of climbing their own route without bolts to show how clever they are, of course)? I can't think of one.
Gibson on Lundy. Do i get a prize?
Anyway, I'm afraid I can't be bothered to reply again to the other-climbers-have-placed-pegs-in-the-past-so-bolts-must-be-OK argument, nor the visual-impact straw man.
QuoteAnyway, I'm afraid I can't be bothered to reply again to the other-climbers-have-placed-pegs-in-the-past-so-bolts-must-be-OK argument, nor the visual-impact straw man.
>It was you that put forward the 'littering' visual impact aspect not me. Nice touch accusing me of constructing a straw-man when you put it their first.
Littering is bad for a good many reasons other than visual impact.
>To put it more straightforwardly - bolting is a matter of ethics not litter - end of.
'End of' is one of those expressions which are simply used in order to brand the poster a fool.
I do remind you, by the way, that my purpose in describing why anti-bolters dislike bolts was to suggest that bolters approach them differently. You aren't winning many prizes in that direction.
I don't know what forums you go on, but 've never seen another forum that has a load of program code appear on the screen when you try and quote someone else's post. It's absurd.
I am interested in your answer in why bolt 'litter' is so unacceptable and trad 'litter' is acceptable which is implicit in what you are saying.
I dare say bbcode has been around for years. It was probably cutting edge when this forum was built, but others have better and simpler methods, and so should you. Or you could shoot the messenger, of course.Ok, I'm not going to derail this topic any further because of your rather sad whining - go and look at any of the "cutting edge" forum solutions out there - they will all use BBCode.
I dare say bbcode has been around for years. It was probably cutting edge when this forum was built, but others have better and simpler methods, and so should you. Or you could shoot the messenger, of course.
“I challenge anyone to articulate the current "rules"/ status quo in less than 100 words…” - thesiger
1. “but if we let a few ‘8b+’ sport routes or whatever go up what are we going to say – and what are bolters in general going to say – once the masses start saying it’s not Fair and it’s Elitist and why aren’t there any nice bolted 5+s in Penwith?”
“You could point out more politely (what I suspect is true) that if the Edwardses had never existed and the crag were discovered now for the first time bolting it would cause much less controversy.”
“about three weeks ago when I did Lundy Calling…”
“sticking a line of bolts up a cliff because you can't climb it otherwise is simply ludicrous, exactly on a level with leaving crisp packets behind.”
“The pomposity, the self-obsession, the sheer absurdity of taking a drill to a cliff in order that you can climb up it, when there are so many cliffs to climb without doing that.”
“Chalk is obviously deplorable too… the damage is being done anyway…”
“It would certainly improve relations generally if bolters could be persuaded not to carry on unilateral bolting outside the agreements.”
“I know the bolters will win at Carn Vellan in the end”
“Do you really think CV would be the end of it in Cornwall, if it were bolted?”
“It's better to acknowledge that bolting has lead to chipping and sica” – Stu Littlefair
“I see the argument as one between two user groups competing for the same resource...” - Stu Littlefair
“Bolting is categorically different and relies on solipsistic sophistry to justify the practice” - Sloper
The pomposity, the self-obsession, the sheer absurdity oftaking a drill to a cliffdevoting many years out of the only life you have, in order to to get better at climbing...., when there are so many othercliffs to climbthings to do with your life without doing that. To me it's got very little to do with the nature of climbing; if cliffs existed with bolts already in them, that would be fine.
However, there is this difference with leaving pegs and fixed threads behind; in principle they are removable at any time (or at least so it was thought; in practice we know that pegs are not sustainable and that's why we don't really use them any more). There is however some merit in leaving them there for the next person, so I certainly wouldn't condemn doing so; it's not necessarily what I would try to do, but I understand it.
Nemo, that was a f*cking great post, in fact probably the best I've ever read about bolting, naturally excluding some of mine.
You do prove how very right Toby was once to tell me that self-deprecation of any kind had no place on the internet, mind. I think I might climb a bit more than you imagine.
Now, is one of those irritating icons a listen-to-me-you-stupid-cunt one (is that dropping the ridiculous tone of intellectual authority enough for you?)? I'm new here, so perhaps we could just imagine it. I'm getting tired of saying this, so just one more time. I didn't come on to tell you why CV shouldn't be bolted. I came on to tell you why IMHO if people want it bolted and not shortly thereafter debolted they're going to have to act differently.
Bird Money? WTF?
Quote“It's better to acknowledge that bolting has lead to chipping and sica” – Stu Littlefair
Methinks you’ve gone dizzy from either watching binary stars or arguing with JCM! ... People climbing on chossy crags leads to sika.
As to your overgrading theory, by the way, I saw some videos of 1980's Jerry the other day, and he didn't exactly look like Adam Ondra footworkwise either. I think even the very very good just weren't so good in those days.
>You are seriously comparing serial overgrader, liar, chipper, cheat and bullshit artist Medwards with Jerry
I don't see what many of those descriptions have to do with it. I thought I read you saying that Monster Munch couldn't be 8b+ because on the video of it ME was displaying poor footwork. I'm just pointing out that that isn't a very reliable criterion for grading routes, nor indeed climbers, because if you watch someone who obviously was very good, he doesn't look that stylish either.
Presumably quite a lot of people have been on Monster Munch, after all? Admittedly a lot of them Edwards acolytes, but still, it would be interesting to hear from someone else who was on it,
Bird Money? WTF?
Seeing as its Monday morning.... Mr Birds first name (shortened) and the opposite of punter...
I'm not interested in arguing about whether bolts are a Good Thing or a Bad Thing. People telling me my feelings are illogical, or worse still don't exist, are missing my point.
> instead you've decided to categorize sport climbing as, in your words, absurd, pompous and self-obsessed.
I didn't say that. I said placing bolts was those things, and I didn't say it was those things, I said it appeared to me to be those things.
>and you're in a minority who don't (I'm guessing you don't?),Are you saying you actually go sport climbing?
Wrong, as it happens
I think John has onsighted 7b or 7b+ in the past if I'm not mistaken.
would find a convincing argument for bolting a given area but given the stance that all "bolts are bad" which you hold whats the point? You'll still think they're bad, no matter what case is made.
You're right, I will. The point of posting was not to give people an opportunity to change my view, but that if bolters don't behave less stupidly than they did at the last CV fight then they will annoy people so much that their bolts will probably get chopped. This would be a Bad Thing and better prevented. My suggestions were my small effort in that direction.
Why not save yourself the time and effort of posting here and just attend the BMC meetings (despite the ~300 miles involved) because that is where a compromise will be reached and not here. Not everyone who attends those meetings is registered here and will read your posts.I think I probably will: I didn't intend to but some of the views expressed on here have so incensed me that I just might.
However, I intend to go sport climbing in the future. As I say, not doing so won't remove any bolts, and I have some ambitions I hope it will help with. It seems to me that denying myself the opportunity to experience the same pleasures as others would be cutting off my nose to spite my face: much the same as not flying from Heathrow because one doesn't think there should be a fourth runway.I'm not commenting on CV as I know the best part of nothing about it but I can't level this with your previously expressed venom towards bolts. To make your analogy work you would have to not object to the fourth runway but object to the idea of humans flying in planes, see it as evil, and yet still fly from Heathrow because you fancy a holiday.
I've been sport climbing about four times, and only then because people with me wanted to go and it was better than nothing.
However, I intend to go sport climbing in the future. As I say, not doing so won't remove any bolts, and I have some ambitions I hope it will help with. It seems to me that denying myself the opportunity to experience the same pleasures as others would be cutting off my nose to spite my face: much the same as not flying from Heathrow because one doesn't think there should be a fourth runway.
Although mind you I very much doubt whether my personal activities are of any interest to anyone. Still, you did ask.
One of my internet rules, by the way, is that....Did you actually type that?? I'm shocked. One of my rules of the internet is that all beautiful women (who, Maggers and Lucy should note, I respect as individuals and in no way objectify) want to have sex with me. It don't make it so...
Perhaps pro-bolters find the chopping of bolts by anti-bolters stupid and contradictory as it still leaves (often worse) scars on the rock, and the very act itself may encourage/incenses them to go out and bolt again? That would be a bit of a vicious circle.
I dare say they do. However, once a meeting decides that bolts shouldn't have been placed, presumably you'd agree that they should be removed? I would have thought most people would think that this task should fall to the people who shouldn't have placed them in the first place, but of course they never, ever do it, so what are you left with? Unilateral chopping and bolt wars are undesirable, of course, which was my original point.
Contrasting last time's campaign again, I see BC brought along some photos of the damage, and (absurdly) called the choppers 'vigilantes' and other endearments. This to a meeting he was trying to persuade to his way of thinking, and which contained not only the choppers but a large number of their friends and supporters. Now I'll ask you again; do you think that was a sensible way to go about things, or do you think my small suggestion that it be done differently this time was a good one?
I am a stubborn git. Surely you'd noticed?
“Lundy Calling isn't on Lundy, btw - your post suggested you might have thought it was” - JCM
“Really? Just them? We know what the people who are interested in doing sport climbing at any cliff think, surely?” - JCM
“I think if you reread my initial post you would see that what I said was that IF people want to rebolt CV they need to go about it differently.” - JCM
“I rather imagined a fair number were at Raven Tor. Is that particularly chossy?” - JCM
“Bolting fosters a different attitude to the crag which leads to this stuff going on. Remember when the jug fell off Mecca? Lots of support for industrial intervention including tons of sika and steel support rods. Remember when the jug fell off the Ace? Ton's of controversy about it being glued on with a barely visible bit of sika. We think of the Tor as an industrial project, but Stanage as a natural wilderness (alright, that's overstating it a bit)” – Stu Littlefair
“I think Stu is right about bolting leading to, breaking down inhibitions about, going hand in hand with, or whatever, sika, and indeed chipping too…” - JCM
“what about Ecstasy and Justified and Ancient? Both on excellent rock; both with artificial holds. The one on Ecstasy has been accepted and the route even described as a classic.” – Stu Littlefair
“In general, we might get a lot more support if we were totally accepting that sport climbing comes with a lot of negatives. We're not going to change people's minds about it anyway, so why waste time arguing the point and causing friction.” – Stu Littlefair
I don't think we should have put bolts in in the first place, but once my views don't prevail and they're there, what purpose would it serve me not using them?
>I would like to point out that BC isn't the proposer of the motion as JCM suggests
I believe I said the LAST motion. Who was it who doesn't read, doesn't listen and doesn't think again?
So is Monster Munch presently bolted, then? Presumably you can tell Jasper whether it's really 8b+, then, right?
I don't think we should have put bolts in in the first place, but once my views don't prevail and they're there, what purpose would it serve me not using them?*note the efficient usage of quote system, I've never read the instructions, I don't have a GCSE in IT and I didn't go to Oxford, maybe I should've as I'm clearly a genius
If you find me putting new bolts in, you can tell me I'm not standing by my principles.I'm telling you now, you're not standing by your principles :P If I find you putting new bolts in (does this mean this is a distinct possibility?) then I'll know the scales have completely tipped rather than swaying slightly which they appear to be doing?! And there'd better be some kind of agreement in place before you start wielding that drill. ;)
Fundamentally disagree with this – it isn’t my experience of sport climbers at all – especially not in the UK where the vast majority also take part in the other aspects of climbing.
90's France?!
Who was it who doesn't read, doesn't listen and doesn't think again?
I'm actually quite interested in what people think of the Gogarth bolt ladder episode. It seems to me quite a parallel, barring the fact that what the perps wanted to do was not sport climbing but aid climbing. What did you think of choppng that?
slack---line, of course I read it. My post to which Nemo had been replying wasn't limited to the UK. Read my '90's France?!', if you will, as 'well you may be right about the [present-day] UK scene, but that hasn't been true at all times and places, has it? E.g. 90's France.'
Nemo seems like a bright guy. I thought he'd probably understand that without needing it spelled out.
Bonjoy, thanks for your reply. It's not clear to me that you appreciate that Carn Vellan is a trad cliff with a number of routes on it some of which pre-dated the sport routes, including two three-star routes and a reasonably popular local-classic type of HVS, and that we're talking about bolting a section of the cliff, perhaps one-third?
In any case you're taking a different line from Nemo's strict utilitarian approach, which I would have thought would make the Gogarth bolts fine (I'd be interested to hear for that reason what he thinks about them). I think it's a fine distinction to say that Gogarth should 'obviously' be debolted, even though trad climbers aren't and won't be using the bit of cliff in question, because trad climbers have to look at the bolts from North Stack Wall, and that Cornish cliffs 'obviously' should be bolted as long as they'd make good sport routes, because trad climbers don't have to look at them. Leaving aside the fact that (as I say) this isn't actually true in this case, the visual impact is a small part of what the locals dislike about the notion of having sport climbing on Penwith sea cliffs.
“In any case you're taking a different line from Nemo's strict utilitarian approach” - JCM
“Mind, I don't know how I let him get away with that stuff about how sport climbers use sika because they climb on chossy cliffs. You don't see a lot of sika at Blackchurch. Henna, Whitestonecliffe or some bits of Swanage, and I refuse to believe that any sport climbing cliffs are as chossy as those.” – JCM
I seem to be a bit obsessed by this - I have another question. Do we have any sport routes which are on cliffs which are quite so lashed by the sea as this one? Bits of Swanage maybe? I've never seen seas there like the ones you get in Cornwall, though. The bolt stubs that exist from 1995 look pretty damned rusty. I'm just wondering how frequently it would be necessary to re-drill the cliff if sport routes were established. Or is this nonsense and bolts last perfectly well even if they're covered in waves every winter?You can get bolts in marine grade stainless steel, which will last well in this environment. I’d imagine these would be used given the level of consideration lavished on this bolting.
I seem to be a bit obsessed by this - I have another question. Do we have any sport routes which are on cliffs which are quite so lashed by the sea as this one? Bits of Swanage maybe? I've never seen seas there like the ones you get in Cornwall, though. The bolt stubs that exist from 1995 look pretty damned rusty. I'm just wondering how frequently it would be necessary to re-drill the cliff if sport routes were established. Or is this nonsense and bolts last perfectly well even if they're covered in waves every winter?