UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Bonjoy on January 30, 2009, 01:24:21 pm
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Long time UKB readers might remember a couple of projects at Birchen that I repeatedly flagged up as good quality, reasonably doable objectives for the project hungry to try their luck at.
It’s a testament to just what a bunch of lazy arses you all are that it’s taken 3+ years for one of these to get climbed at a fairly modest 7b/+ and by a non-UKBer.
Bob Smith did the arete right of Gritstone Megamix on Tuesday and has called it HMS Daring. As I was working it with him I can confirm that it is indeed excellent and I’ll be going back as soon as I can to get it finished.
After a lot of fruitless effort trying to climb it on the right side we eventually figured the way to go was on the left. I won’t spoil your onsight any further by revealing any more beta.
This pic is from facebook so some of you might not be able to view it:
(http://photos-c.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2093/25/40/669606778/n669606778_1944122_4704.jpg)
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birchen, birchen......hmmm, remind me, is that in the peak somewhere? i'm not surprised no-one went to do it, most people just don't go there.
the photos of this do look good.
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despite the fact that I can see, I think, seven good problems in that pic alone.
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That does look good, another reason to go back. I had a gander at it a few weeks ago, but ran out of time working through the easier stuff. First time I've been bouldering there and I was impressed. Time for a Birchen renaissance?
http://www.vimeo.com/2873499 (http://www.vimeo.com/2873499)
Didn't get a chance to check out the 7c's and 7c+s, any ukbers done these?
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tried it Jon, got shot down :shrug: (it was summer time)
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Might go for a play Saturday if i persuade people there!
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Is there a topo for all the new problems?
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I used bonjoy's list and the rockfax peak east guide, plus ukclimbing and searching ukbouldering. Here's what I came up with:
First bit you get to is Hornblower area - from left to right:
6c Gritstone megamix
7b+ HMS Daring
7a Thing on a Spring (ss) - undercut to rail, then dyno
6b+ Oarsman - arete, better from ss
7a Trav into Hornblower
6c+ Hornblower - wall left of arete
7a+ Obstructive Pensioner - arete
50m left is Technical Genius Area - from right to left:
7a Technical Genius - Undercut wall, starting matched on flake
7a Kiss Me Arsee (block to the left)
7a Cabin Boy - dyno on quarried wall behind pinnacle
6c wall to right of Cabin boy
7b ss arete left of Kiss me Arsee
Further left is
6c Howships Lacunae - Sitstart to Saltheart Foamfollower, from a pocket.
7a The Pirate - Climb the highball bulge right of Poop Deck Crack
Then over to the right of the crag is harder stuff
On Copenhagen Wall
7c The Mermaid - Sitstart the roof from an obvious jug. Gain the lip and work left on slopers. A tough rockover leads to the break. Finish straight up.
7c+ Chasing the Dragon - On a boulder beneath Copenhagen Wall. Sitstart undercutting a large hole on the left. Reach an undercut and sloper, and throw right to a flake. Finish up the arete.
And
7c+ The Brigand - Climb the wall right of Broadside. The crux is low, passing an overlap to a poor pocket and bottomless crack. A cheat stone may be needed for shorties.
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:o where are the three ships problems? :lol:
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On the three ships.
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I walked into that one (https://themixingbowl.org/static/img/smilies/stupid.gif)
Real shame sarcasm doesn't translate well over t'internet its about the only denomination of wit I can afford :P
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Nice one Bonjoy - looks good! There are always plenty of areas out there for re-discovering. Thankfully....!!!
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I used bonjoy's list and the rockfax peak east guide, plus ukclimbing and searching ukbouldering. Here's what I came up with:
First bit you get to is Hornblower area - from left to right:
6c Gritstone megamix
7b+ HMS Daring
7a Thing on a Spring (ss) - undercut to rail, then dyno
6b+ Oarsman - arete, better from ss
7a Trav into Hornblower
6c+ Hornblower - wall left of arete
7a+ Obstructive Pensioner - arete
Sorry to be a grade pedant:
HMS Daring hasn't settled at either 7b or 7b+ as yet.
I'd say Gritstone Megamix is more low end 7a than 6c.
Despite what my list says, Thing on a Spring I thought was bog standard english 6a (font 6b at most).
Oarsman is better and harder (still 6b+) if climbed laybacking on the right so no need to use the arete, or 7a from sitter (no foot block on left).
The wall between Hornblower and Oarsman is really good at about 6c/+, starting with RH in the finger jam.
You look to be climbing Hornblower a rather hard way in that vid. It's only 6b/+ with better beta. Really excellent problem too.
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Hey Jon, I've never been here but am keen to check out new area's.
When you off next week? you can give me the tour
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Sorry to be a grade pedant:
HMS Daring hasn't settled at either 7b or 7b+ as yet.
I'd say Gritstone Megamix is more low end 7a than 6c.
Despite what my list says, Thing on a Spring I thought was bog standard english 6a (font 6b at most).
Oarsman is better and harder (still 6b+) if climbed laybacking on the right so no need to use the arete, or 7a from sitter (no foot block on left).
The wall between Hornblower and Oarsman is really good at about 6c/+, starting with RH in the finger jam.
You look to be climbing Hornblower a rather hard way in that vid. It's only 6b/+ with better beta. Really excellent problem too.
Good knowledge.
Think I got the megamix grade from Al - haven't done this myself.
Not a chance is Thing on a Spring 6b, not for me. Also, from sitting you have to make a few hardish hand adjustments - unless of course your arms are longer than mine...
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Went to Birchen last summer, just soloed lots of routes, but the bouldering looked good. Plus the added bonus of it being dead quiet on a weekend.
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Went to Birchen last summer, just soloed lots of routes, but the bouldering looked good. Plus the added bonus of it being dead quiet on a weekend.
You were lucky
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Lost count of the amount of ascents this saw today. Video to follow shorty.
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Went to Birchen last summer, just soloed lots of routes, but the bouldering looked good. Plus the added bonus of it being dead quiet on a weekend.
You were lucky
Lost count of the amount of ascents this saw today. Video to follow shorty.
A fair point then, Slackers ;)
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(http://photos-c.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2093/25/40/669606778/n669606778_1944122_4704.jpg)
How about the wall to the right of the new problem (plus a continuation to the top)? Does that have a route on it? I did the move up to the right most pod, but didn't fancy finishing up. I thought it would involve a dyno.
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I think it would just be a reach and about HVS.
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It was about 4 years ago!
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Lost count of the amount of ascents this saw today. Video to follow shorty.
I made it six, but they all had to work a bit for the tick.
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Lost count of the amount of ascents this saw today. Video to follow shorty.
I made it six, but they all had to work a bit for the tick.
Once temps cooled off though, it made all the difference it seemed.
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Too right. Video on the way?
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Too right. Video on the way?
Ill get onto it. Managed to get Bob retro first ascending it, and Nige doing it.
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Sorry for delay in footage, been working away this week like a dog!
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Looking forward to it Adam. Keen to try this problem - we avoided it on Saturday because it was just too busy!
Some easier stuff from the Technical Genius area:
http://www.vimeo.com/3045295 (http://www.vimeo.com/3045295)
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All i did was left he camera rolling so it wont be anything special. Once i am less busy i might actually learn how to use it properly. Dam i hate working.
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good stuff r-dude. that cabin boy, and the ramp just right of it, and both aretes of that block are very good problems, as good as the main bouldering at the crag, with a couple of mats. probably 6b+, 6b, and 6a/5as respectivley.
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Whats the chance of any of these problems being in nick on the morrow?
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I allways tried this on the rt hand arete... tis harder than a 7 on this side... never thought of bumjoy's method...
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Firstly thanks for the list r-man. It was much appreciated and led to a good afternoon out on Saturday. We climbed most of the problems listed except for the ones over on Copenhagen wall and they are all very good. we have a few additions which should expand the list a bit, I'm sure some of these will have been climbed before :
1. 7a Crack right of Oarsman arete - climbed from the right.
2. 7b 'Pocketed' - Wall left of Hornblower - start right hand in crack of Hornblower and then up and left via mono.
3. 7a+ Sit start to Technical Genius.
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You're right, all of those have been done before. good circuit.
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The first two have already been mentioned in this thread by Bonjoy, at 6b+ and 6c+ respectively.
If by the third you mean a sitstart using the left arete, then this saw lots of ascents on ukb day. Group consensus was 6c, but there are lots of heels and toes that make it much easier than it could be. Very good problem.
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Thanks Robin, Can't believe the wall left of HornBlower is only 6c+ though. We had a pretty strong team out and it only saw one send, have you done this yourself? There seemed to be a few projects on the go as well, have any of these been done yet?
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The wall left of Hornblower also saw few ascents on the day that 'everyone' turned up. I found it quite conditions dependant and did it when my fingers cooled down. I wouldn't argue with a grade anywhere between 6c+ - 7a+. I.e 7a sounds about right.
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No, I haven't done or tried either of those two on the Hornblower wall.
The wall right of Obstructive Pensioner is still a project.
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I upgraded it to V6/7a in the descriptions I sent to Grimer for the new book after seeing folk struggle with it. I'd found it a lot easier than Obstructive Pensioner (which I still haven't done), possible due to my lack of flexibility hence giving it two grades lower. It's pretty knacky and the short have to do an extra (crux?) move. Maybe 7a+ would be better. Any other grade votes on it? I think it's going in the book with the name 'Oar 'Ouse.
The Oarsman crack on its RHS sounds like the way Mark Stokes climbed the line original, based on his vague description. Stiff pull off the deck then not to bad laybacking, seemed the same difficulty as Hornblower to me, or just a touch harder. The sitter (sans block on the left) adds some really good hard moves and ups it to solid 7a I thought, maybe 7a+. The arete based version seems like a slightly easier inferior variant to me.
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Bransby did the right-hand side of the HMS Daring arete yesterday in about 5 goes. I like to think I'd have done too if my skin hadn't been destroyed. Deadpoint to pocket in crack - 7b/+?
He also finished off my lame attempts at the left-hand finish to Gritstone Megamix (ie traverse lip of roof to arete, then up) on his first attempt. The project right of Hornblower survived though.
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7b!?! Have people's minds broken? How can the RHS of the arete resist the combined effort of a lot of climbers who have climbed a lot of >7bs, not least one Michael Adams and only be 7b?! So it's the same grade as long established peak 7bs such as T Crack, Big Al Queada, Perfect Day Direct, Mark's Roof, Rambeau, Chip Shop Brawl etc, or even bottom end 7b+s such as China in Your Hands, Desperate, The Rib, Dick Williams? I find that hard to believe. Someone's tripping on goofballs, either you boys or me, who is it?
The fact an evidently on form BB took 5 goes in itself suggests it's likely to be more than 7b.
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Just downgrade all that lot to 7A. That's what supposed to happen in The Peak nowadays isn't it? :shrug:
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Ben got on it first, fannied about, I had three goes I think, hit the hold on the last go, at which point Ben abandoned his boiling Bransby sequence and adopted mine, and did it. My skin really was in an appalling state yet got me so far and why I didn't have another go when it was clearly on. Ben's method may be pocket-strength dependent but I'm pretty sure given good skin and conditions I could jump straight to the top hold at no more than 7c, it isn't the first 'desperate project' to not turn out to be that hard - Big Al Quaeda being a case in point. I can only imagine previous suitors have been confusing themselves with clever dick sequences instead of just jumping past.
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at which point Ben abandoned his boiling Bransby sequence
Have you been hanging around Tim Emmett lately! Boiling indeed ;)
Anyway, all the cool cats are saying boilingness now! ::)
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Bransby has been boiling since at least 2001, I don't know when Tim picked up on the word but I suspect its more recently.
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7b!?! Have people's minds broken? How can the RHS of the arete resist the combined effort of a lot of climbers who have climbed a lot of >7bs, not least one Michael Adams and only be 7b?! So it's the same grade as long established peak 7bs such as T Crack, Big Al Queada, Perfect Day Direct, Mark's Roof, Rambeau, Chip Shop Brawl etc, or even bottom end 7b+s such as China in Your Hands, Desperate, The Rib, Dick Williams? I find that hard to believe. Someone's tripping on goofballs, either you boys or me, who is it?
The fact an evidently on form BB took 5 goes in itself suggests it's likely to be more than 7b.
it's a scam. i've never seen bb guns and john welford in the same room at the same time.
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If that's 7b, then that new thing at Rhylstone can only be 8a+........
Oh, I see how the BB grading system works now. The worlds gone mad ::)
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To be honest my grading for the HMS rhs would be pretty similar to JBs suggestion. I would prob go for 7B+. On the go I did it it felt easier than the left side but I don't think that means it is actually easier. All I did was to think in my mind "I am the best, my footwork is imacculate, I never fail, I am the strongest" and it felt easy. Obviously all my naming energy is elsewhere at the moment but I'll take one of the rejects from the rhylstone thing.
Gritstone Megamix LH prob 7a/7a+ - a grade or so harder than the original. Gritstone Mashupmix?
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You'd hane done it on the left if only you'd microwaved your chalk.
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Gritstone Magimix maybe Ben?
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Good skills whatever the grade! To catch the pocket/crack, do you stick a left foot at the base of the arete and then boooolle for the crack? Is the right hand coming off the low undercut or one of the poor slopers? Intrigued.
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Left hand on sloper around arete, left foot on nib on very base of arete, right hand undercutting roof, boule to pocket in crack. Ben's foot stayed on so it can't be that far.
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I did give that sequence a couple of very uncommited attempts when trying it with Bob, but then got involved in the LHS sequence. I bet that's a great move and a bit spicy!
All we need now is for someone to bag the other project in time for the guide. Once that's done it just leaves the hideous slopers left of The Brigand, now that will be really really hard...
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Left hand on sloper around arete, left foot on nib on very base of arete, right hand undercutting roof, boule to pocket mono in crack. Ben's foot stayed on so it can't be that far.
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I had another trip here yesterday, mostly to document stuff rather than climb, but I did put my shoes on a bit. At the Copenhagen wall I did a problem that sit starts under the roof, spans to a foot worn sloper, pulls up and (slightly) left to a big polished hold and then does a crux rockover to the break. Re-reading the description of Mermaid, 7c, I think this must be that, but I'd always thought Mermaid was a traverse. There's no real scope for a traverse here so this must be it. The crux is putting your foot by your face on the lip and then rocking onto it - awkward and contorted. Whilst I didn't find it too bad I could imagine anyone tall having a harder time. I think it was 7b for the way I did it and for me, but it might not be for everyone. There's likely to be a heel way too. I still can't find the Chasing the Dragon 7c+ thing.
Also near here is a nice arete on a free-standing boulder about 100 yrds right. The left arete on the RHS (obvious) is not hard but unusual, about 6a?
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Hi Ru, we saw this as well and think you're right. We also climbed the thin flake in the bay to the left of where we met whilst eliminating the crack to the left of it. It's a little eliminate but a very good 7a.
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Nice work Ru, any idea on timeline for the new guide?
boule to pocket mono in crack.
That's a 'mono' that Ben slapped into with two fingers.
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Nice work Ru, any idea on timeline for the new guide?
probably at some point next winter word.
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Did the proj right of obstructive pensioner today. Lobbed off the jug at the top when my left hand popped, then got distracted when May wee-ed herself with no spare trousers (she was so busy climbing she forgot to go). Having improvised a pair of leggings from my thermal top, did it a couple of goes later (after dropping the top jug again!). I'm not going to beat around the bush with naming this one, it's going to be a shit one straight off - Jumpers for Trousers Fb7b+.
May managed a couple of routes to the right, despite looking like she was wearing some weird kind of bondage outfit (harness with arse poking out of the neckhole of the thermal wasn't such a strong look).
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nice one, and well done on the insta-name :)
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Did the proj right of obstructive pensioner today. Lobbed off the jug at the top when my left hand popped, then got distracted when May wee-ed herself with no spare trousers (she was so busy climbing she forgot to go). Having improvised a pair of leggings from my thermal top, did it a couple of goes later (after dropping the top jug again!). I'm not going to beat around the bush with naming this one, it's going to be a shit one straight off - Jumpers for Trousers Fb7b+.
May managed a couple of routes to the right, despite looking like she was wearing some weird kind of bondage outfit (harness with arse poking out of the neckhole of the thermal wasn't such a strong look).
7b+? Wow, I know I wasn't going well when I tried it, but I thought it was going to be a lot harder. Unless we were using an arse about tit method. How did it go in the end?
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Nice one Ben, I think you have lost your mind grades wise tho. This and the other thing are no way 7b+ unless there is some sneaky beta no one else has thought of.
Good knowledge on the jumpers for trousers, I'll bear that in mind incase I ever need to improvise like that
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good effort, 7b+ does sound surprising, given that on the day when everyone was there such luminaries who eat peices of shit like 7b+ for breakfast got shut down on it.
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Good knowledge on the jumpers for trousers, I'll bear that in mind incase I ever need to improvise like that
Can't you just undo your flies like everyone else? Prevention is better than the cure and all that...
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:great: Fine effort.
I'm kind of glad you've hugely undergraded this as it sort of proves once and for all that you can't grade (no offence meant), ergo we can discount the numbers on your stuff and just make educated guesses instead. I'm guessing 7c+ for this one and 7c for the other. ;)
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there's nothing wrong with that logic bonjoy. it's the same i use to discount anything dan variation on a theme has said to me and i upgrade accordingly to more or less the actual grade ;D
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I completely accept that I am shit at grading, and if things get changed either after ascents or even from people simply trying the things that is fine - I think that is the nature of grading stuff, we all climb differently and have different strengths (I think it is fair to say I climb things differently to other people more often than normal, partly due to being short and also due to shuffling)
I kinda graded this comparing to other boulder problems. It felt easier than things like Renegade Master, Slingshot, Western Eyes, Who needs readybreak, Bens groove sit start (caley), Terry etc which are all seen as 7c now?
That said it felt harder than things like the terrace, Famous Grouse, Full Power? (that thing at gardoms which is half of 8 ball is this the right name?) and at least half the 7cs I have done in Font so thinking about it a bit more 7c could be right (it was very warm though, I was tops off - due to giving May my top, rather than trying to impress the Mrs, so I thought it would feel harder than it is so maybe back to 7b for it...)
Shit I should stop now before I get even more confused.
7b+? Wow, I know I wasn't going well when I tried it, but I thought it was going to be a lot harder. Unless we were using an arse about tit method. How did it go in the end?
After a couple of plays the other day (trying high LF in pocket in roof/lip and getting RH on diagonal edge and failing to get to high LH hold and also going to diagonal edge with LH and crossing to poor edge higher with RH and attempting to hold this and go with L to high edge) I did it differently yesterday:
Undercut in roof for L, diag edge for right, get foot jam/drop knee in break with LF, intermediates for LH to get high edge for RH which is a little disapointing, RF over lip and to break. Was trying the last move static and LH popped both times so in the end I just slapped it.
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I kinda graded this comparing to other boulder problems. It felt easier than things like Renegade Master, Slingshot, Western Eyes, Who needs readybreak, Bens groove sit start (caley), Terry etc which are all seen as 7c now?
This is the crux of the matter isn't it. Pretty much everything has been downgraded to 7C so nothing makes sense any more.
Good effort on these problems Ben.
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This is the crux of the matter isn't it. Pretty much everything has been downgraded to 7C so nothing makes sense any more.
Is that the Welford effect?
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:o
I kinda graded this comparing to other boulder problems. It felt easier than things like Renegade Master, Slingshot, Western Eyes, Who needs readybreak, Bens groove sit start (caley), Terry etc which are all seen as 7c now?
As far as I know they are generally accepted at 7c+ except for WNRB, certainly RM, Slingshot and BG sitter are. If those are the benchmark 7cs you are working on then your grade scale is a grade out. I.e to keep things consistent with the Bransby scale every other problem in the country needs to be downgraded by at least a grade.
That said it felt harder than things like the terrace, Famous Grouse, Full Power? (that thing at gardoms which is half of 8 ball is this the right name?) and at least half the 7cs I have done in Font so thinking about it a bit more 7c could be right (it was very warm though, I was tops off - due to giving May my top, rather than trying to impress the Mrs, so I thought it would feel harder than it is so maybe back to 7b for it...)
The Terrace is (generally considered) high 7c, FG is 7b+/c and Full Power is 8a!
I think the people you are discussing grades with (Pete Robins perchance?) are at odds with the general opinion of the masses. I got a fair few opinions on grades from folk when I did my 7+8 list thingy and the grades I'm quoting are based on these rather than my own view.
Personally I think it's insanely impractical to try to regrade the entire country. I.e I think the general position of grades in guidebooks (eg Ru's guide) should be used as the benchmark and new things graded accordingly. The alternative being a never ending grade crunch.
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WORD.
Just cos people are getting stronger doesn't mean the problems are getting easier.
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Maybe we should reintroduce the Welford 7B+, and
slot it into the scale between 7b-7c+somehwere covering the grade range of 7b-7c+ with just one grade......
Agree with Jasper's sentiment too.....modesty is fuelling the new downgrading phenomenon
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As far as I know they are generally accepted at 7c+ except for WNRB, certainly RM, Slingshot and BG sitter are. If those are the benchmark 7cs you are working on then your grade scale is a grade out. I.e to keep things consistent with the Bransby scale every other problem in the country needs to be downgraded by at least a grade.
I feel better now I know BG sitter is 7c+, I always thought it was hard. I think where I go wrong is I often compare a new problem to problems which I found hard for the grade (ie I compare Jumpers for Trousers with BG sitter or Western Eyes and think it is much easier (and also for some reason think they are 7c doh) so give it an easier grade, especially when something like J for T doesn't really suit my strengths.
I think the people you are discussing grades with (Pete Robins perchance?) are at odds with the general opinion of the masses. I got a fair few opinions on grades from folk when I did my 7+8 list thingy and the grades I'm quoting are based on these rather than my own view.
Personally I think it's insanely impractical to try to regrade the entire country. I.e I think the general position of grades in guidebooks (eg Ru's guide) should be used as the benchmark and new things graded accordingly. The alternative being a never ending grade crunch.
I don't think we need to regrade the country (just the rest of the world, we have it spot on ;)) I do tend to grade with people like Robins, Caff and JB in mind (not JB for english tec grades, as his idea that it goes above 7b is a complete joke. I have only just learnt to accept 7a exists) who may grade on the harsh side of things, however when I find things like Slingshot hard and then read that they are 7c/7c+ (off beastmaker blog?) that feels at least as harsh as my grading. I think peole like Ned and Dan should have as good an idea of grades as anyone at these levels - they are out there doing it, going to walls, comps and (although I don't know for sure) travelling to other countries to boulder a lot more than me.
I guess I will never accept that 8a should be anything other than utterly desperate and also grade with this in mind.
In my defence things like My Buddy the Apple, 300lbs of Musclin' man, r.i.p. o.d.b, bulb without the chip etc have all stayed at the grades I gave them. I don't think there are any of my problems which have recieved massive up grades or down grades.
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i'll let you into a little secret, ned and dan haven't got a clue about grades. training very specifically, and very well, is one thing but then unleashing yourself on an unsuspecting world and downgrading nearly every single problem you've done (typically to 7c/7c+) is not the sign of a keen mind. it is lunacy. at least dolph has the good sense to do everything and not dwell on the grades. :kiss1:
people whos grade opinions are not to be listened to must include:
ben
dan
ned
mick
ru
strong steve
note these people are all deemed to be 'modest'
feel free to add to this. no mythical figures please
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I agree with dense.
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I agree with dense.
careful. it's a slippery slope.
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Wow, font has had a good effect on Dense. First smiles, now sense!
I don't know where some of this grade nonsense comes from. We're in a real danger here of sending the uk font scale the same way as the uk tech scale, ie by focussing on 8a as some kind of magic grade above which things are REALLY hard and constantly downgrading things beneath to unwittingly create a half-closed scale.
It felt easier than things like Renegade Master, Slingshot, Western Eyes, Who needs readybreak, Bens groove sit start (caley), Terry etc which are all seen as 7c now
I thought Slingshot was 8a, Ben's groove sitter hard 7c+, and Western eyes benchmark 7c+, Terry 7c, Ready Brek 7c (but who knows its pain tolerance not climbing)
it felt harder than things like the terrace, Famous Grouse, Full Power?
I think Famous Grouse is accepted as nails 7b+ or 7c, Terrace borderline 7c/ 7c+ and Full Power 7c+ (not done it but has been compared as similar in style and easier than Help the young sitter, which Ru gave 7c+).
and at least half the 7cs I have done in Font
This should be the most important consideration if the scale is to be a font scale not a uk font scale.
Having tried and watched the first problem I think it is quite likely to not be as hard as web pundits are suggesting - ie 7b+. Having watched lots on Jumpers for Trousers, and the fact it took Ben 2 visits not 2 goes I think its safe to assume 7c+ though as everyone seemed to get close fairly easily some beta might mean 7c. Worth noting that good conditions are important in this area as it is a real suntrap.
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Oh dear, you were doing so well with the first part of your post...
. We're in a real danger here of sending the uk font scale the same way as the uk tech scale, ie by focussing on 8a as some kind of magic grade above which things are REALLY hard and constantly downgrading things beneath to unwittingly create a half-closed scale.
And then a few lines later you forgot what you said yourself and wrote...
Full Power 7c+ (not done it but has been compared as similar in style and easier than Help the young sitter, which Ru gave 7c+).
Full Power is definitely a soft 8a, but it's harder than a lot of 7c+'s, and as you quite rightly point out our grading scale should cover the full range. BTW, it's quite different in style to HTYSS, but probably easier. I don't know why Ru put it in at 7c+, probably to get back at you for all the nasty things you've said about Raven Tor.
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Oddly I put HTY sitter in at 7c+, because that's what I was told it was. I think JB, you first gave it 7c+, then thought better and said 8a. Then Nodder said 7b+, so I thought 7c+ is a fair compromise, given that it clearly isn't 7b+. It will be 8a in the next guide.
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stu, did you seriously put full power is soft 8a, but is harder than a lot of 7c+'s? well, i never
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on HTY sitter i thought it was in at 7c+ as Johnny Bullwinkle had only done it avec pied block at the start. He subsequently did it sans pied block, now it's 8a? C'est vrai?
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stu, did you seriously put full power is soft 8a, but is harder than a lot of 7c+'s? well, i never
the way things are going, I'm getting confused by the whole grading system thing. I thought BB's new problem got 7b+ 'cos it was harder than the terrace, which is 7c? How does this stuff work again?
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I'm only voting for 7c 'cos there's no 7a+ button.
maybe there's some logic to it after all :whistle:
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I think JB, you first gave it 7c+, then thought better and said 8a
A give it 7c+/8a at the time innit - based on the fact I didn't, and still don't, have any other 8a ticks on my cv to compare it to. I didn't, and don't have beef with your judgement of hard 7c+, which as Cofe points out was based as it was on the start with the block which I haven't used since. Missing it makes little odds on my sequence, but it does on the one used by most repeats, including Nodders.
But the fact remains I know a few folk who've done or tried both it (with block) and Full Power and found Full power similar and easier - no opinions to the contrary have reached me anyway. So one of them is graded wrongly. Do we downgrade Jerry, or upgrade me?
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Fucking hell give it 8A for God's sake. Then at least there will be one left!
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I think JB, you first gave it 7c+, then thought better and said 8a
A give it 7c+/8a at the time innit - based on the fact I didn't, and still don't, have any other 8a ticks on my cv to compare it to.
thought you did westworld word?
from the comfort of my armchair HTY reads like an 8a.
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Shit so I did. Look at me.
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I see what you did there. Nice work.
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hey johnny, you're great.
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Of course, if I remember correctly, Westworld has been downgraded in Bonjoy's list. I'm beginning to see a trend here.
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Stick to your guns Ben, don't let the bastards grind you down. Effort on dousing some steely moves on the crag formely known as 'that's just a bumbly venue'. Due to G grades i think UK grading has switched from bottom up to top down for a select few in the last year and there are some discrepencies appearing. If someone can persuade the honorable Mr Gaskins that his 8cs are actually 9a then things will probably be ok (could cause a minor ripple in world bouldering), as it's now the source of my opinion on grades. John has actually achieved these levels years ago so why should we ignore them?. At the moment the jump between his unrepeated stuff (i.e. stuff we haven't wriggled an easier sequence out of) and other 8b's round the country is pretty vast. That said he did those problems long ago so i reckon things should be graded in relation to his 8cs rather than start at 3a and work up and hope that 8b-8c roughly correlates to john's problems. That would require ALOT of reprinting/ humble pie though. There is also a disceprency with his pre/post frankenjura grades, which can probably be sorted by regrading the post frankenjura ones by taking off the: Screw-you-marcus-you-invidious-prick-try-and-repeat-this -2grades factor.
The sensible option would probably be to regrade John's problems as they're repeated (if needed; as easier sequences often keep the same grade) and to keep everything else as normal (which means in a few years someone (atleast as strong as Tyler) might manage to do all the moves on Shadowplay or Il Pirata and give it the grade it deserves. That way i might stop altering all the other grades of problems i do, which then should stop screwing with the minds of other people who repeat them. That hasn't happened as of yet and probably needs more consensus, which i guess is why i've been keen on expressing my 'modest' opinions on alot of problems i've done since getting stuck into some of John's stuff. Slingshot is soft 7c if your tall it's just people get their skirts in a twist about the landing (probably add a grade if your feet cut on the first move), try chequers groove ground up (a better problem too) and then try giving them both 7c+ (this is also morpho mind).
anyone who's done Ironman, get yourself on Attrocity exhibition it's the same grade on the same boulder
why aren't all those people crushing 8a+s in the cave nipping up to pillbox wall for a quick send?
lets put the hangers back on Brandenburg Gates, it probably would have only been 9a+/9b, route climbers are doing those in a few sessions nowadays
I'd add Leroy to your list Dense, he's been keeping it real in wales for quite a while
just about on topic... :shrug:
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The sensible option would probably be to regrade John's problems as they're repeated
I think that's the only option. Downgrading everything else in reference to unrepeated problems is plain daft.
Slingshot is soft 7c if your tall
And if you're not?
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Of course, if I remember correctly, Westworld has been downgraded in Bonjoy's list
Sounds fair to me, might even have been my opinion that counted there. I did it quickly, I don't climb 8a, therefore its not 8a.
I don't think the 'but so-and-so tried it and didn't' factor is reliable or useful as a rule. I've done a couple of things in the past that 'no-one else could do' so I allowed them bigger grades than I thought they deserved. Time has proven my original instincts correct.
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Of course, if I remember correctly, Westworld has been downgraded in Bonjoy's list
Sounds fair to me, might even have been my opinion that counted there. I did it quickly, I don't climb 8a, therefore its not 8a.
I don't think the 'but so-and-so tried it and didn't' factor is reliable or useful as a rule. I've done a couple of things in the past that 'no-one else could do' so I allowed them bigger grades than I thought they deserved. Time has proven my original instincts correct.
Pretendy humble bollocks. Like Stu said you've undone yourself again.
I can demonstrate on demand every 7c+ on eastern grit wearing trainers but can't climb 8a because Ru said I can't in his definitive no questions stone bible...
With help the young what happened was, you said, 'HTYS might be 8a', then someone mentioned the dreaded block, then the toys came out and indignance drove you up it without the block on a warm day with no warm-up. Which does not mean that it isn't 8a.
I addressed Westworld on Bonjoys 'grade changes list etc' thread. Similar sentiment.
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I don't think the 'but so-and-so tried it and didn't' factor is reliable or useful as a rule. I've done a couple of things in the past that 'no-one else could do' so I allowed them bigger grades than I thought they deserved. Time has proven my original instincts correct.
Naturally then symmetry demands that the "I've/so-and-so has done it and can't climb 8a, so it can't be 8a" argument that you just used on westworld is similar bollocks. Honestly, do people pay no attention to logical equivalence? What do they teach in schools, etc.
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Ok so HTYSS goes up to 8a. Which other eastern grit problems that aren't currently given 8a in the guide need to go up?
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how about piss at higgar?
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and famous grouse :)
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is brad's arete ss at seagull tor still 8a?
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and famous grouse :)
We thought this was nails until Newman unlocked the magic beta.. Don't put LF in break, put left heel on first left hand sloper instead (with LH on sloper 2, RH on arete), move LH to 3rd sloper, RH bounces up to arete at break (RF pressing against LHS of scooped wall for this), cut loose and put RF on over lip, LF back on 1st sloper, et voila now it's all a million grades easier. Putting heel on is awkward but makes everything after easier and less scary.
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I don't think the 'but so-and-so tried it and didn't' factor is reliable or useful as a rule. I've done a couple of things in the past that 'no-one else could do' so I allowed them bigger grades than I thought they deserved. Time has proven my original instincts correct.
Naturally then symmetry demands that the "I've/so-and-so has done it and can't climb 8a, so it can't be 8a" argument that you just used on westworld is similar bollocks. Honestly, do people pay no attention to logical equivalence?
Logical equivalence is it? So you honestly believe failing on a problem is always as good a perspective on its difficulty as doing it? Utter tripe.
The problem with the font grade is in its attempt at precision it abandons accuracy. For those of you that studied arts, that means the grade bands are too narrow to ever achieve consensus.
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The problem with the font grade is in its attempt at precision it abandons accuracy. For those of you that studied arts, that means the grade bands are too narrow to ever achieve consensus.
Amen. And it is so easy to fix. If we just got rid of those silly +'s it would be a fine system. 7a and 7a+, who can honestly tell the difference? I think the +s are quite new too, introduced like 30 years ago?
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and famous grouse :)
We thought this was nails until Newman unlocked the magic beta.. Don't put LF in break, put left heel on first left hand sloper instead (with LH on sloper 2, RH on arete), move LH to 3rd sloper, RH bounces up to arete at break (RF pressing against LHS of scooped wall for this), cut loose and put RF on over lip, LF back on 1st sloper, et voila now it's all a million grades easier. Putting heel on is awkward but makes everything after easier and less scary.
there's about 1000 different bits of "magic beta" for this problem depending who you speak to, believe me i tried them all. Generally guaranteed not to work for you unless you're exactly the same body size/shape as the guy giving you the beta, with exactly the same strengths, skin, number of spotters, boldness, and conditions. This is why this is such a bogey problem for people.
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The sensible option would probably be to regrade John's problems as they're repeated (if needed; as easier sequences often keep the same grade) and to keep everything else as normal (which means in a few years someone (atleast as strong as Tyler) might manage to do all the moves on Shadowplay or Il Pirata and give it the grade it deserves. That way i might stop altering all the other grades of problems i do, which then should stop screwing with the minds of other people who repeat them. That hasn't happened as of yet and probably needs more consensus, which i guess is why i've been keen on expressing my 'modest' opinions on alot of problems i've done since getting stuck into some of John's stuff.
Carlisle i don't think you should grade your problems based on the Gee's problems. Your doing important first ascents, repeats and second ascents and its gonna cock grading up in this country using jonny grades. As much as i love jonny some of his grading is out (i.e. not in line with the known universe). I don't blame john after all he could pull on anything but this didn't help his grading. You mentioned the pill box, graded 8a+/b and done in two hours. I genuinely think this would be 8c in USA and Swiss and many other places. Underground british 8b+ climber has told me that compared to the 8cs he has tried Shadowplay is 9a. Personally i don't believe that the whole world is wrong and Jonny is right. Jonnys problems themselves need to be re-assessed when repeated and tried by beasts like yourself.
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Absolutely spot on Doylo.
These problems are there to be attempted and eventually repeated by the young beasts coming through. When they are they should be regraded according to their difficulty with reference to everything else rather than using them as the benchmark and regrading everything in the World! John got enough stick giving things the grades that he did without causing any more controversy by claiming 8C+ when the rest of the World was three grades behind. He was obviously being conservative.
In the case of Shadowplay though, was there not some doubt as to whether this was actually an elaborate joke as "fuck you" to MB? I'm sure I remember reading this somewhere but the wank Search function isn't bringing anything up. I know Clamping Arthur said he thought it looked not like the hardest problem in the World but physically impossible (and this is in comparison to John's other problems). Someone must know.
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