UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Krank on October 31, 2008, 02:36:13 pm
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I was under the impression (from posts on here and some other reading i had done) that leaving fresh was the way to go when power/strength training. However on a post on the subject on ukc (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=326907 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=326907)) i was corrected and told that leaving trashed was the way to go. The fella who has posted this is clearly a good climber and has been/is on the british team so i would imagine he knows what he is talking about. I am not trying to say anyone is wrong i would just be interested in which would be the most beneficial to my persuit of power 8).
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Just to clarify, I believe you are asking about indoor training sessions. Whether to climb to exhaustion, or whether to climb and stop whilst still maintaining a good burn.
I for one (totally untrained, and going purely by what I've done to myself on previous occasions) believe in working until I just start to feel a dip in performance. If I'm on a really good burn, I'll keep going until I just start dropping, the warm down and leave. That way I'm not totally fucked for days after. If I go to exhaustion, then I need to have at least 2 rest days afterwards. I'm sure there are more scientific responses though.
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Interesting dilemma this and one that every climber is faced with every time he trains or goes out to the crag. The received wisdom from the 80's/90's is that you should stop strong and therefore next session you are stronger, not having trashed yourself. This next session will be soon afterwards ie. maybe the next day you could be sending strong whereas if you did not stop strong you may have to take as many as 2 days off in order to perform at a decent level.
However, if you only bouldered for half an hour and you stopped, you would be strong but would you have pushed your body to its limits and brutalised the muscle fibres so that they recovered stronger? Perhaps not. I think a balance has to be struck, also to avoid the risk of injury. I tend to think that indoors, if you are still climbing after 4 hours and unable to bust a 6b move then you have taken it too far. However, an hours bouldering... is that enough to keep the improvement curve trending in the right direction?? :-\
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Drew- I am talking about training on an indoor board. I train in the same way as you, by leaving when i feel a dip in performance.
Kingy- Im not strict to the hour if i am going strong i will continue untill i feel a dip and then leave.
I need the answers and i cant find them :( i dont want to waist my training time. Beasts your help is needed
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However, an hours bouldering... is that enough to keep the improvement curve trending in the right direction?? :-\
Rightly or wrongly, I've always thought of it like this. Let's say you are trying to improve at one type of move:
If after warming up you have 5 maximum effort goes at a particular move, then stop within an hour, you can do the same next day. So you can have 7 days on, and 35 proper goes where you push as hard as your muscles can push.
If you carry on training/bouldering till you are shagged, most of your time is going to be spent doing moves well below your maximum effort. You'll then need a couple of days to recover. Maybe you'll get 3 days on in a week, if you are lucky. This equals only 15 maximum effort goes in a week.
The first option sounds good for getting stronger - you get your body to adapt to the hardest move possible. The second sounds good for getting fitter - you get your body to adapt to having lots and lots of attempts. Both are useful abilities.
I know people talk about building muscle size, but are large muscles really necessary for strength? There are plenty of stronguns (Ondra, Graham, Strong Steve) who look pretty skinny...
(By the way, I don't know owt. Just interested.)
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Personally I've found that stopping strong is the way forward when training like this.
A long warmup to ensure everything isn't going to explode then an hour of really powerful, steep, basic bouldering on small holds remembering to rest appropriately between attempts. Stopping just as you start to decline.
Doing 1 day off 1 day on like that for 3-4 months showed me the most rapid improvement within my strength and power etc.that I've ever seen.
Remember that being able to apply it to everything is a different matter completely.
Kingy - thats not what stopping strong refers to, it refers to stopping a session before you feel a decline. If thats after 5 maximal efforts then I pity you ;D
As we all know within climbing weight is a big issue, therefore muscles that are massive are likely going to be a bit of a hindrance. It all depends on your body type. Different body types need different things, scrawny buggers like me really do benefit from weight training etc. anyone who doubts this fact is wrong. Man muscles may not need to worry about the same things.
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A long warmup to ensure everything isn't going to explode then an hour of really powerful, steep, basic bouldering on small holds remembering to rest appropriately between attempts. Stopping just as you start to decline.
This is exactly how i train and i would have continued to train in this way if i hadnt been corrected. The guy on ukc aint the usual punter so it has stumped me. I am gonna give him a call and speak to him about it. I would have thought that British team training knowledge was good knowledge backed up by the SCIENCE.
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No offence to all involved with the team but from what I've seen of the training sessions IMO it's a complete farce.
The training itself appears to be down to the individuals themselves, some of which are obviously pretty clued up.
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Interesting stuff. I found that climbing 2 days on 1 day off worked pretty well with 2 days off maybe once a month. That way, you got used to pulling hard when not completely fresh. Although at first I would be pretty goosed on my 2nd day on, after a while the body adapted and I was able to climb almost as hard on the 2nd day. This is pretty useful cross training for the ability to climb routes, which is of course a totally different approach than the best one in order to train pure power.
I know Ste Mac no longer climbs/trains at all on his second day like he used to in his youth. I guess the body's recovery times go up with age. Dave Graham sometimes climbs 6 days in a row though! i suppose as a full time climber, you would get bored out of your mind sat on your arse every other day with no climbing. I know personally when I was on the dole for a few months, I could not sit around and would just head out as much as poss, occassionally 3 days on. Now back in the world of working climbers I'm lucky if I train twice a week outside of weekends!
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I heard taz had done 90 days on, doing something harder than 8a every day (not sure if that's sport or font)
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Like all training methods, training to failure is a tool. No tool should be used all the time for all applications. It can however, be a useful training method. Any training program which plans for progressive resistance, consistency, and variation is likely to produce success
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Like all training methods, training to failure is a tool. No tool should be used all the time for all applications. It can however, be a useful training method. Any training program which plans for progressive resistance, consistency, and variation is likely to produce success
If you where training to failure, what kind of results would you end up with? Excuse my ignorance.
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From my experience, a bad back.
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I hate to use an old phrase, but "training to failure is failing to train".
As Dylan says, it can be useful. But I wouldn't use it all the time. There's a balance between getting a useful session in and going too far. If you go that bit too much, you get weaker, end up slapping, technique goes and injury is a possibilty.
A well structured session with good warm up, good rests, good warm down will be more useful thatn going on until you can't even crawl to your car.
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I heard taz had done 90 days on, doing something harder than 8a every day (not sure if that's sport or font)
I very much doubt that! Chinese whispers i am sure.....
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:lol: I wouldn't be surprised though, taz is a beast.
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:lol: I wouldn't be surprised though, taz is a beast.
I'll ask, as i'd love to know.....
Nice one on Underhand by the way. :beer2:
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Cheers for the answers everybody, i think i will stick to the views of the ukb posse and keep doing what im doing. Little and often seems to make sense to me and seems to be starting to work. Ta.
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Without being bothered to read whats been said (cos I'm tired and am going to bed) I normally train (you can't call it that really) till I can't climb anymore.
Possibly stupid but when your a dog with 6 all the time what can you do?
I don't think it helps but then I don't really train and I just feel fooked all the time
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What are opinions on this related to power-endurance or stamina work?
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For strength/power, I'm beginning to wonder if the optimum frequency and intensity of training (and for me, this just means bouldering) is very much down to the individual - some seem to be able to go for a little bit everyday without consequence (injury!), whilst others advocate much more rest. To some extent, I suppose the former method merely requires a certain conditioning, although when I tried this (five days on, two 'active' rest days on Friday and Monday) I just ended up injured...which is a familiar outcome for me! I've come to the vague and usually quite unhelpful conclusion that you merely need to listen to your own body and I rarely find that trashing myself does a lot of good (although it look a while for me to figure this out and I am still very much a punter).
Al
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This may be of interest
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Neil_Greshams_Guide_to_Bouldering_for_Strength_205.html (http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Neil_Greshams_Guide_to_Bouldering_for_Strength_205.html)
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just on the note of getting injured whilst training i've started going to see a physio once every six months for a sort M.O.T he stretches out the muscles in my shoulders which has been particularly useful and also makes my training more effective, if your gonna treat the body like a machine remember to give it proper maintenance.
As for training to failure, I never do but then I do weigh 11 and a half stone so maybe the stresses caused by my weight on the joints and so forth mean i get worn down i cant climb many days in a row and i i try to i just gradually get fatigued until i need a BIG rest.
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This may be of interest
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Neil_Greshams_Guide_to_Bouldering_for_Strength_205.html (http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Neil_Greshams_Guide_to_Bouldering_for_Strength_205.html)
Welcome to 1995
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It seems at the minute that I'm tight, therefore if I train at the works etc. (~£6) I leave trashed, if I climb somewhere such as a mates board (~£1) I'm happy to sack it off feeling strong at the end.
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Welcome to 1995
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What is the best current thinking be on the subject?
What would you say was the best current resource, something along the lines of the mcleod stuff?
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Hey Krank,
Sorry for the short change answer on UKC, a bit blasé.
I don't have the mental energy to two-finger-type about training, especially after training.
After 15 years of near daily climbing my recovery rate is now pretty good.
Pair this with the fact that lately I only have time to get down the wall 2-3 times a week.
If I do go to failure at the mo' I'm fully recovered by next session.
Lots of other good threads on here relevant to training intensity.
Just rest and eat and go to the wall, drink lots of coffee, say no to drugs etc etc......
Sorry this has descended into another blasé answer.....
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Cheers again Drew, i guess its horese for courses and 1 mans daily training is another mans introduction to joint destruction.
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drink lots of coffee, say no to drugs etc etc......
:lol: :lol: :lol: