UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Adam Lincoln on October 28, 2008, 08:26:56 pm
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In an hour!
Fine effort.
Thoughts were E8 for him.
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Effort.
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Eeeek and Wowsers
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This is clearly going to get seriously embarrassing.
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I agree, I can see this one going on and on...
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Uh oh. I see a shit storm on the horizon. Good effort the man :thumbsup:
Is this a confirmed report by the man himself or some imposter spamming Mick Ryan?
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Did he use plenty of pads? Compared to Keenus with the single unlikely slider?
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Great effort!
Out of interest has Superstition (Miles Gibson's E8 7a to the left) had any repeats?
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I have a very vague notion that Keenus may have done it. This is not gospel though as I am old and senile and it is only an inkling. Anyone want to offer some useful information?
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Two pads down and a slightly different sequence apparently - read all about it here (http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf)!!
bluebrad
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Butters you are the new Adam Lincoln.
Interesting stuff. I had a friend (a friend of Crabstix) who assured me that the slider was rubbish and bag-weight only :-\
This is gonna shake things up maybe,....
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I can't open his PDF for some reason, probably something to do with living in Leek.
So, other than Statestman, Parthian and The Promise, what is his tick list to date? Oh, and when is he coming to the Roaches so I can run for cover?
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They've been but it rained. So they went to the Churnet (stop-press; Churnet is new Rocklands) and all did Thumbelina - I'm afraid one of them had forgetten their shoes and did it in trainers (allegedly).
ps. your computer might just be blocking the pdf as a popup.
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Anyone think we might be seeing the second ascent of The Groove?
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Looks like the chap that turned up at the pebble just as I had to go back home and deal with a moron client instead of flashing the ace.
Anyway, the thing is cutting edge always takes a while to sttle down, anyone rember two tribes by F-G-T-H, how many column inches would the 'relax' line get now?
Promise will settle to a given grade whegther it is E8 or E10 remains to be seen, but it would be a brave man to call the FA an egotisitical over grader.
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Looks like the chap that turned up at the pebble just as I had to go back home and deal with a moron client instead of flashing the ace.
Anyway, the thing is cutting edge always takes a while to sttle down, anyone rember two tribes by F-G-T-H, how many column inches would the 'relax' line get now?
Is it me, or does that make no sense whatsoever? Maybe I'm just being dumb?
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Don't worry Slopers first language is Latin, his postings tend to lose something in the translation.
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I think he means the "relax" line in the tune "Relax" (rather than "Two Tribes". Clue's in the title like.) that kicked up a fuss in the 80s. Nobody would bat an eyelid now. However, I don't quite get the analogy or rather, it seems a bit tenuous.
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I think the "link" is they are both cutting edge in ther respective areas; FGTH was the cutting edge of controversy in it's time, I guess like (Ross and Brand are now), and The Promise is (just about) the cuttting edge of top-end grading.
Not a great analogy, but I kind of see the direction he is coming from (if that is what he was aiming for).
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Although this ascent and downgrade will obviously get (the Cocktalk) tongues wagging I'd have thought it's not actually that controversial. I mean, KJ has said that James' original sequence seemed "completely out of the question" and he's also described the gear as bomber. So James did a much harder sequence and thought that the gear was just psychological. He graded it with reference to Equilibrium which he found easier, so E10. KJ has climbed it with a better, easier sequence and found the gear to be good so E8. It's not that much of a big deal shirley? Tis a bloody good effort though.
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Agree. Plus the extra pad, sounds about right.
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Although this ascent and downgrade will obviously get (the Cocktalk) tongues wagging I'd have thought it's not actually that controversial. I mean, KJ has said that James' original sequence seemed "completely out of the question" and he's also described the gear as bomber. So James did a much harder sequence and thought that the gear was just psychological. He graded it with reference to Equilibrium which he found easier, so E10. KJ has climbed it with a better, easier sequence and found the gear to be good so E8. It's not that much of a big deal shirley? Tis a bloody good effort though.
It's nothing new for routes to get downgraded, especially the short, bouldery variety which are hard to grade anyway.
To be fair, KJ's blog doesn't say anything about where the beta came from (i.e. not necessarily JP) and to me, the photos look like he's doing the same moves. What is more significant is that he thought the gear was good.
I've just placed my bet for a Gaia flash next ;)
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Well put Jasper.
Hopefully it will lead to some more repeats as well.
There is also the direct start to superstition to go as well, I don't think this has been done
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I think i talk for many people when i say all of the top Britsh climbers should be Embarrassed. Where have all the good climbers gone????? :wall: I think we need to have a Serious look at are Selves. Maybe pay the good ones to climb full time and stop fucking around.
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Why embarrassed? A team of super motivated, super talented full time climbers, specialist in highball / short bold grit type routes come over and do good? I'm pleased they have made an effort to come, and have got some good conditions to make some fine ascents in a good ethical style, and appear to be enjoying the experience.
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http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html (http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/2008_10_01_archive.html)
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I couldn't agree more - why embarassed :-\
You climb something, make the first ascent, and only have your own experiences to comment by. You compare to other routes / problems you have climbed and come up with what you think is an appropriate grade. Then someone comes along and gets a better sequence, his body make up fits the problem better, has better conditions and hey presto the route / problem is suddenly easier and gets downgraded. Then everyone looks at you thinks why did you overgrade it. The answer is you didn't, you graded it as you thought fit at that point in time and it is virtually inevitable that someone will come up with a more optimal sequence.
So no embarassment, nobody is wrong - it's just the way climbing goes.
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I think its more down to trends and fashions, I don't think Gritstone headpointing has really been at the forefront in the uk in the last few years like it was aroiund the time of Hard Grit, but there are so many more strong boulderers around capable of doing routes like the promise, but choose to concentrate on 'lowball' bouldering..........
KJ is obviously made for this highball malarky, i'm sure Ethan Pringle would rinse up the lot in super quick time too!
It may turn out to be embarassing though if they continue to repeat the most recent routes like the promise and potentially the groove so quicky after years as being 'Last Great Projects' tried by all the top UK Gritstoners.....
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My point about flashing the Ace was obviously a joke as I find it hard to get motivated by trivial problems with big holds.
The reference to FGTH was intended to indicate how over time the assessment of what's cutting edge and how its to be interpretted changes. What we need to do is seek where possible to develop a settled consensus of how grades should change and whether there should be a single grade for a route.
For example if you solo a well protected E3 it doesn't count as an E5 tick. If you find good gear on a previously bold E5 it should be down graded. So if the gear is 'bomber' then the downgrade is valid but this doesn't change the validity of the original grade, both are in their time correct.
The tricky bit is whether you change the grade because of the sequence and or number of pads / spotters; in my view the answer to this should be no, for if you do you have to consider whether you're climbing the route or climbing the grade and if so which are you attributing the number to? For example a friend of mine is 6' 8" with a +3 Ape index: he's a VS punter but has climbed a problem given Font 6c+ in the forest [as he was able to stand on and slap for the top] has he climbed 6c+ or has he climed a 6c+ rated boulder problem?
I don't think that the british grading system is broken, I just think that as with language and custom it's evolving rapidly and there will be evolutionary blind alleys that die out (probably in Yorkshire and Scotland).
I hope this makes sense, I've actually had to do some work today and its affected me gravely.
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Brilliant effort, the guy is a monster.
Regardless of whether it makes sense or not the status quo is that routes are graded for onsights with no pads. As KJ stated a grade applicable for using pads is it really a two grad downgrade?
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Crag banter has always dictated that for every pad you use you lose an e-point.
This is a light hearted comment not a statement of fact, so dont shit the bed
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Regardless of whether it makes sense or not the status quo is that routes are graded for onsights with no pads. As KJ stated a grade applicable for using pads is it really a two grad downgrade?
Think that the grade was suggested more for the fact that the gear is apparently better than previously thought rather than the use of pads.
bluebrad
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good effort. enjoying reading about all this action. really inspirational. technically speaking, isn't the slider still 'untested' as it hasn't been fallen on?
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Regarding bounce testing placements from the ground, something that Kevin touches upon in his blog, I think this is of limited value in simulating the forces on a dubious placement in a real fall. The placement may feel solid when you are hanging on it 3 inches off the ground but that is quite different to taking a 15 foot lob onto it....as a mate of mine found out to his cost recently.
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I agree with hock and think its pretty embarrassing.
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Then can you and / or Hock please tell us what the specific cause of your embarrrasment is?
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I agree with hock and think its pretty embarrassing.
It could only be perceived as embarrassing by those who think climbing is some kind of competition.
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Wisdom from Travs and Jasper and NCB here.
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It could only be perceived as embarrassing by those who think climbing is some kind of competition.
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Throw in a bit of national pride and putting people/routes on pedestals into the mix as well
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I think its a dig on the very limited funding given to any climbers in this country and not any climbers in particular
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It seems maybe that James missed the best sequence, I could see how he might be embarrassed about this - not the end of the world though. I don't see how it cast embarrassment on all british climbers, unless they all tried the route and also missed the sequence. This explains some of the disparity in the grade the rest is probably explained by the difference in opinion about the how good the single piece of gear is and no one will really know how good it is until its been falled on and even then. Didn't John Dunne do the FA of Parthian Shot with only 3 pieces of gear in the flake, was he of the opinion that it wouldn't hold a fall?
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Didn't John Dunne do the FA of Parthian Shot with only 3 pieces of gear in the flake, was he of the opinion that it wouldn't hold a fall?
Yes, 20 years ago I believe
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This makes intresting reading for those that haven't read it:
4. Kevin offers a proposed grade of E8, 13c/d, R based on his experience and comparisons with other routes he has climbed including Parthian Shot which I believe the team regarded as E9, 13b/c, R/X (I hope this is still the current feeling because China won’t let me onto peoples blogs to check if minds have been changed with hindsight). Am I alone in noticing the obvious discrepancy - before we even go into more detail?
If we do compare specifics of each route, Parthian Shot is 8a/+ with a fall (off a 6c crux move) into air onto wires in a flake that has been described as “bomber”. “Bomber” or not, the flake has held well over 50 falls which would suggest to me that it is trustworthy.
The Promise was given 8b+ but may be easier due to a new sequence being discovered? A fall from the 7a crux would be onto a single No.1 Ballnut in a tiny slot that has both held, and failed during body weight tests and has never taken a fall.
There are the facts and figures, make of them what you will.
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Of course it's not emabarrasing. These guys have come over here to do these things, they'll be psyched out of their minds over what they are doing not going home each night as laughing at 'the brits'.
I think it's brilliant and those who are embarrased are perhaps taking it all a bit too seriously.
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More thoughts from Kevin
http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf (http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf)
If I had to order the routes I have done so far in respect to difficulty, this is what it would look like:
• New Statesman, E9 5.13c/d R
• The Promise, E8 5.13c/d R
• Parthian Shot, E8 5.13b/c R
Amazing ticklist. What next...? The Groove?
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That's interesting about New Statesman. Despite being a superb line, it doesn't get climbed much, and anybody who does it seems to be a good climber. Very different in difficulty to Johnny's routes at the time?
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New Statesman E9- go the Hurley! :thumbsup:
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That's a bloody big difference between the 8A sequence James did and the "V8 or V9" (so 7B+ ish) sequence KJ found. No wonder he found it to be E8 rather than E10, mats etc aside!
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Statesman is nails if you don't have the Bentley-like span to reach the finger jug round the arete, with your r hand still on the flake. I remember hearing it had lost pebbles since the FA, but I suspect this is an excuse made by flailing aspirant ascentionists, and JD just crushed it (or he's a giant). I wouldn't argue with E9; you probably get half an E point for quip endurance - responding to the inevitable 'there's a path around the back, son' comments.
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From KJ's blog:
I agree that each ascent has its own experience, and mine, relative to what else I have done, was E8. I’m
coming to realize and believe that each ascent, of each individual route, deserves its own E-grade. My
experience was E8. James’ experience was E10. A third ascensionist will have their own experience and so
on.
Amen!
Dunney has said in retrospect he thinks Statesman was the first E9.
Bentley reckons it's fine and ripe for a ground up above pads.
I've only had a short go in sh*te conditons, but the crux move around the arete is pretty steady if you're tall. Certainly not like the crux of a F8a+/F8b.
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Johnny Dawes thought it would be E9 7a for him when he tried top roping New Statesman ages ago I remember.
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• New Statesman, E9 5.13c/d R
• The Promise, E8 5.13c/d R
Feel free to shoot me down here as I know nothing about american grades or route grades in general but I am fairly sure there is quite a big difference between e8 and e9, how can they both be the same american grade yet be different e grades. Is it because the american grade is only for difficulty and the e grade takes into account the extra danger factor? Does this mean the promise is safer than statesman?
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Yes and yes.
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I suspect "R" covers a wide range of sins.
In fact, in the UK, for a given high end climbing difficulty grade, we usually have about 5 levels of describing the danger aspect e.g. E5 6c E6 6c E7 6c E8 6c E9 6c. Using the US system we'd have 3 levels, 5.13d 5.13d R 5.13d X, hmmm.
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I suspect "R" covers a wide range of sins.
It does. I've done a few 'X' and 'R' rated routes in the US. Some of the 'R' rated routes were merely not bomber gear and no big deal really. Most trad in the US is basically really well protected (i.e. cracks). If it isn't they tend to stick a bolt (or lots of bolts in).
It would be interesting to see how these bold US climbers would get on in the Czech. Now that is the land of the 'R'!
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It would be interesting to see how these bold US climbers would get on in the Czech. Now that is the land of the 'R'!
pretty well actually. -see the sharp end dvd
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Hello, and yes the brits should hide their heads in Shame. We have been fucked, proper fucked and we have been begging for it for years, I am totally embarrassed, if we hadnt made such a big deal about how unique and wonderfully dashing our climbing was it wouldnt be so bad. Climbing is a comp, get real, stop being ill. You can say climbing is about enjoying your self all you like, but when you throw the gauntlet down dont expect no one to pick it up and have a go. Pearsons , McLeod are very good climbers , but on a world scale where are they? The answer is they are very good but not the best. Jaspers remarks are true, different sequence makes for a different grade, but come on first Rhapsody, then Parthian, now the Promise. Oh and by the way why hasnt Parthian being ground up by a brit, shit its in Britain, isnt it, its 10 mins from the School isnt it, the holy place that has prodiced 'all of Britains top climbers' . If I sound harsh please believe me when I say Iam not, I am deeply ashamed. Every time I come back to Britain its the same, lots of overly strong lads messing around on sitdown starts, what about Jumbo love , what about the world cup, oh sorry I forgot yes we have gritstone, therefore we are the best. Time to start a new Brit fashion wearing Hoodies the wrong way round. Stevie.
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ROFL, good rant, but I don't think it's all right.
So one of the world's very best trad climbers comes over and it takes him a hell of a lot of effort to repeat Rhapsody which is only 3rd place in British difficulty stakes.
So one of America's top highballers comes over in the best bloody grit conditions October has ever seen and does some of the highball gritstone routes and tinkers with the grade by one degree or two.
I still think our trad, and top trad climbers, stand tall.
And no-one's making any big comparisons with our sport climbing to Jumbo Love etc etc...but...
One of the world's very best sport climbers comes over and in his own words is totally syked for Steve Mac's routes.
Don't forget it pisses down a lot in this country too...
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Hello, and yes the brits should hide their heads in Shame. We have been fucked, proper fucked and we have been begging for it for years, I am totally embarrassed, if we hadnt made such a big deal about how unique and wonderfully dashing our climbing was it wouldnt be so bad. Climbing is a comp, get real, stop being ill. You can say climbing is about enjoying your self all you like, but when you throw the gauntlet down dont expect no one to pick it up and have a go. Pearsons , McLeod are very good climbers , but on a world scale where are they?
Missed Mclure here, and I'd say he's pretty fucking world class. Oh and simpson, and pearson wasn't exactly doing badly with his bouldering now was he?
The answer is they are very good but not the best. Jaspers remarks are true, different sequence makes for a different grade, but come on first Rhapsody, then Parthian, now the Promise. Oh and by the way why hasnt Parthian being ground up by a brit, shit its in Britain, isnt it, its 10 mins from the School isnt it, the holy place that has prodiced 'all of Britains top climbers' .
Jump on that band wagon, why does it offend you so much that some people choose to boulder? And no it isn't, the school is in storage and hasn't been climbable for over a year now.
If I sound harsh please believe me when I say Iam not, I am deeply ashamed. Every time I come back to Britain its the same, lots of overly strong lads messing around on sitdown starts, what about Jumbo love , what about the world cup, oh sorry I forgot yes we have gritstone, therefore we are the best. Time to start a new Brit fashion wearing Hoodies the wrong way round. Stevie.
Again thats simply not true, go and watch onsight if your opinion differs. Ok so an American beat us to it on a ground up of an E9. Wowza.
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I don't get why we should be ashamed?
Some guys have come along and repeated some of the UKs hard routes in a variety of styles and along the way have broadly agreed with the grades and seemingly enjoyed themselves. The one anomaly seems to be the Promise where it sounds like a new sequence has been found which unsurprisingly changes the grade, Brad Pit anyone? Ashamed, I don't think so, just pleased that people think it's worth traveling halfway round the world to climb some routes.
Good on them for coming here to do these routes and good on us for seemingly providing good hospitality.
Now when are they going to Rivelin Quarries?
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A nation of weaklings (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,9659.0.html). We should be ashamed.
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Didn't Chris Sharma say he thought the Mandala V16 or something when he first did it.
Now its thought to be about V12 (?), since DG found a new sequence and Lamiche (a French man?) flashed it.
Chris Sharma's reputation seems to be ok though, and the Americans aren't embarressed.
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Well said.
It's hardly something new. Maginot Line went from 8c to 8b+ when someone less basic than Ben found the foot trickery and only Ben (AFAIK) did Hubble with the ridiculous "both feet on" beta for the crux (I see a pattern!) which probably made it more like 9a. Even the great Fred cocked up on Danse Des Balrogs meaning that the worlds first 8B can now be done by an easier method at 8A+. Action Direct - Wolfie crushes it with basic mono campus awesomeness, easier sequence found. It happens to the very best. Oh and as people are speaking of Dunney, The Maximum anyone?
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A nation of weaklings (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,9659.0.html). We should be ashamed.
Ashamed isn't the right word, it's more amusing.
It's good to see the wind taken out of the HMS E-grade's sails IMO
Regardless of what anyone else thinks, that's exactly how it looks to me.
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I'm assuming you didn't actually click on the link which you're quoting.
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"It happens to the very best"
Mr G and that traverse off of stick it. Easier with a new sequence.
Maybe the problem is the top Brits are too strong, so they just use rubbish beta.
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More sense from KJ here.......
http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf (http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf)
.....wise words.
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This whole "oh this is so embarrassing" sounds so terribly "british" that it in itself actually embarrassing.
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Exactly. If some visiting climbers had crushed our projects and thereby raised the standard of the most popular form of climbing in the country by a grade then that might be more embarrassing. A bit like oh, say Moony did in France with the first 8cs? But A: Nothing like that's even happened and B: It IS only the british who could see it as embarrassing. The French climbing media (justifiably!) kicked up a fuss about the provocative route names but Jibe, Didier, Marc etc just got better and crushed. This is a pissy storm in a stupid teacup. Well done to JP and KJ for keeping it sensible.
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"It happens to the very best"
Mr G and that traverse off of stick it. Easier with a new sequence.
Maybe the problem is the top Brits are too strong, so they just use rubbish beta.
thats a slightly different case IMO Jamie.
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Exactly. If some visiting climbers had crushed our projects and thereby raised the standard of the most popular form of climbing in the country by a grade then that might be more embarrassing. A bit like oh, say Moony did in France with the first 8cs? But A: Nothing like that's even happened and B: It IS only the british who could see it as embarrassing. The French climbing media (justifiably!) kicked up a fuss about the provocative route names but Jibe, Didier, Marc etc just got better and crushed. This is a pissy storm in a stupid teacup. Well done to JP, KJ and JS for keeping it sensible.
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This is a pissy storm in a stupid teacup. Well done to JP and KJ for keeping it sensible.
:agree:
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Hello, you can be ashamed or not, its up to you. I am not only ashamed I am fooking mortified. I loved it when Jerry went to France and Spanked them, I cheered when Ben did the so aptly named Maginot Line, I dont like it when Brits come 33rd in Comps, I would prefer Onda to be an eastern bloc worker seeking employment in Sheffield marrying a local girl and passing on some of the right stuff. You can feel that your not limited by being weak like some, you can pretend to be Mr Nice and not care that apart from Mclure we have no decent climbers but thats not me and thats not the feeling I got talking to lots of climbers in Wales. Ok its alot to do with people trying to sell stuff but the E grades are not based on what people can do onsight and yes we are very strong two inches above a mat. There are beasts in Britain just like in most places, but why(Paul B) cant we have beasts who can boulder, do multi pitch, and do the occaisional run out route. I am sorry but if I could boulder as hard as some of you lot, I would have been straight on Rhapsody laughing my head off and willingly taking falls. I am amazed at the increadibly high leval of bouldering in Britain, but a bit shocked at how little is done with it. I am very aware of all the good or lets say potentialy great climbers in Britain, but lets face it apart from Mclure and Ty(isnt he really a yank?) whats happening, the route in devon and the one on the Ben may well prove to be very hard but at a lower leval visiters are doing very well. When Antoine LeMenestral soloed Revelations it was a very black day, and there havent been many sunny ones since, thats just my opinion, I am not jumping on a band wagon, I would be very happy for things to change. Tie onto that rope Ty. Stevie
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:yawn:
Maybe the focus of the nation is not on killing ourselves anymore.
Good effort to the yanks for coming over here and climbing these routes. It's about time they get the REAL reputation for their quality climbing. When we start to have them putting up hard routes that our best can't match then maybe you have a point about national pride.
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There are beasts in Britain just like in most places, but why(Paul B) cant we have beasts who can boulder, do multi pitch, and do the occaisional run out route.
Simply because some people don't WANT to do all of these things.
Personally:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/bennp2000/DSCF0113.jpg (http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/bennp2000/DSCF0113.jpg)
has a fair deal with me not wanting to risk anything un necessarily dangerous. I'm sure other people have their own reasons and there's nothing wrong with that.
Take a glance welsh-ward (wad?) to get instances of people crushing ground up and in good style. Absolutely fuck all to be embarrassed about from that direction.
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Personally I think the two threads on cocktalk about this issue plumb, even for cocktalk a new low which is bordering on defamation.
Mick Ryan's standard of journalism would just about be acceptable on the Daily Express.
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Now when are they going to Rivelin Quarries?
They got wind of a super hard unrepeated slab there, so they're steering clear 'cos they think they'll get their asses kicked.
There's always a little thing at Fairy Steps to try too.
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Hello, sorry to be bullish about this, and I dont want to be personal, but are you sure Paul that people dont want to be good in the many aspects of climbing, its simply they find themselves unable. I was for many years just a good boulderer when I wanted to be a good climber, and behind all that was my dream of being an alpinist, I also wanted to be handsome and intelligent and oh yes nearly forgot -funny . You know there is nothing wrong with being ashamed or saying I must try harder, other wise we might all be mediocre. I understand the bit about not wanting to hurt yourself, but arnt at least half of these hard routes totally safe. Anyway my contribution to this thread is now at an end. Cheers Stevie
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Totally agree with Stevie on this, however it is completely personal what people choose to focus on within the broad world of climbing and i can totally understand why people may not want to risk life or limb on dangerous routes.......my hat goes off however to the true all rounders who maybe don't get the recognition they deserve in the UK because they don't specialise.......El Mocho for start! :bow:
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Gentlemen (and of course ladies, although I notice you remain noticeably silent in this matter),
Wouldn’t it be perfect if the (at least in my eyes) noble activity, nay lifestyle, of climbing remained aloof above the petty squabbles and arguments of conventional sports. Where progress and success is not reduced to shallow names, numbers, ranks, tables and scorecards.
Who amongst us has not felt the righteous pride and exultation, much deserved on dragging ones sorry arse to the top of a particular favorite chosspile, whether it be a poison-ivy riddled 5.4 scramble in Delaware Water Gap, or an E9 pucker-fest at Moulton Quarry. Why do we consistently feel the need to categorize and compare individual success, particularly when we know that on certain days, we can make diamonds with a left hand pinkie, and yet on others, are reduced to flapping round, like wet newspaper in a gutter.
Can achievement not be merited in its own right? Archimedes invented the lightbulb. Did we call him a tosser, when Wankel moved things on to the incandescent tube? Yogi bear invented the television (in Scotland, at least). Did we mock and titter when Billy Ray Cyrus discovered HD video disk? Not in the least. We stood back, like men, women and hermaphodites and applauded with our hearts minds and epiglotti.
Please people, I beseech you, don’t lets be twats about this. Even you, Stevie Haston, A grade is a grade, is a grade, and nothing more.
So get a grip, folks. Lets end the angst and wailing and just get back to grabbing hold of big chunks of granite, sandstone, limestone, rhyolite, plagioclase feldspar, and cummingtonite, rubbing ourselves bodily against the massive solidness, and quit with the fucking whining.
That especially means you, Mick Ryan. Honestly, I’d be embarrassed if I were you – running backwards and forwards between Supertaco, Cocktalk and Ukthrutch like a schoolboy who's just wet his panties. It’s not journalism. Oh no.
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All quiet on the American front. Did they get pissed off with the weather and go home?
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No, they are still in Sheff, for another couple of weeks in theory. Spoke to Alex yesterday at the wall, they’re as bored and pissed off by the weather as you might expect. I think they’re mostly watching DVDs and going to the Works. I got the impression that if the weather doesn’t improve they might head back early.
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I thought the Tor was dry. :shrug:
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According to Graham Hoey, one of them flashed End of the Affair, thinking it felt like E6. I think this is all really interesting, as they don't have such a burden of expectation. Even if they don't understand E grades, they can can still rate the climbs they have done, in order of difficulty, which gives a very useful insight.
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Better get the red pen out G-Dawg ;)
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I thought the Tor was dry. :shrug:
I met Alex at the Tor 2 weeks ago and he was really psyched by the climbing there and enjoyed the routes he did. However, he mentioned that although he would be stoked to come back for more this trip, his compatriots were unfortunately somewhat anti-sportclimbing so I guess we'll have to wait a little longer for a Team America onslaught.
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According to Graham Hoey, one of them flashed End of the Affair, thinking it felt like E6.
Maybe it does show that the E grade is b*llox after all. I mean, if you listed all of the grit E8s in order of difficulty, you've got EOTA/Gaia and Captain Invincible, Marbelous or any of Miles' routes in that bracket. Totally daft really.
Shame our visitors are so focussed on pulling down. The Lake District is very beautiful at this time of year. They could be getting some first class hiking in, rather than watching DVDs.
Or maybe I could get them to help with my decorating...........................................
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Maybe it does show that the E grade is b*llox after all. I mean, if you listed all of the grit E8s in order of difficulty, you've got EOTA/Gaia and Captain Invincible, Marbelous or any of Miles' routes in that bracket. Totally daft really.
Is it?? Aren't EOTA/Gaia at the bottom of the grade (which like all grades cover a band of difficulty not a single instance) and aren't CI/Marbellous at the top of it?? Furthermore isn't the difference that the latter are safe but physically hard and the former bold but physically easy?? I.e. the adjectival grade accounts for different factors (which are pretty obvious from the types of routes). Just like the E2 grade includes Brown's Eliminate at one end and Insanity at the other...
P.S. Good idea for the Lakes though. Proper mountain spirit bizzle ;)
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Weather good up here too.
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Weather good up here too.
They should head up there then, could probably sneak in a repeat of Rhapsody given how quickly they're crushing on t'grit.
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Maybe it does show that the E grade is b*llox after all. I mean, if you listed all of the grit E8s in order of difficulty, you've got EOTA/Gaia and Captain Invincible, Marbelous or any of Miles' routes in that bracket. Totally daft really.
Is it?? Aren't EOTA/Gaia at the bottom of the grade (which like all grades cover a band of difficulty not a single instance) and aren't CI/Marbellous at the top of it?? Furthermore isn't the difference that the latter are safe but physically hard and the former bold but physically easy?? I.e. the adjectival grade accounts for different factors (which are pretty obvious from the types of routes). Just like the E2 grade includes Brown's Eliminate at one end and Insanity at the other...
P.S. Good idea for the Lakes though. Proper mountain spirit bizzle ;)
Hmmm, range within a grade is a given, but don't you think it's a bit daft how E8 covers stuff from font 7b (maybe lower) to font 8a (maybe higher)? Take Gaia versus Mother of Pearl, both E8, one vastly easier than the other, strangely not even much difference in risk of injury terms. No wonder one is popular an the other isn't.
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If only the E grade scale was open ended...
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Hmmm, range within a grade is a given, but don't you think it's a bit daft how E8 covers stuff from font 7b (maybe lower) to font 8a (maybe higher)? Take Gaia versus Mother of Pearl, both E8, one vastly easier than the other, strangely not even much difference in risk of injury terms. No wonder one is popular an the other isn't.
I would have thought its not beyond the realms or possibilty for Mutha Of Pearl to easily be E9, in the same way that welford 7b+ was always 7c.
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exactly, same as Captain Invincible, and maybe routes like EotA and Gaia are really E7. They certainly hold the same place in the e8 grade as Kaluza Klien holds in the E7. Not doubting that they were those grades for the first ascensionist, though.
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The line has to be drawn somewhere but when one route gets 20 repeats (inc a couple of flashes) and another gets one or two (or none) in a similar time frame then we all know what the answer is.
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Don’t get me wrong, I think on balance I’m pro E grades. I do however think they are pretty nebulous and at the upper end more prone than any other grade system to inaccuracies due to FA modesty/over enthusiasm, missed intricacies, advances in protection etc. There also seems to be a higher weighting for danger in the grade equation than for difficulty, which perhaps leads to a misunderstanding about which routes actually represent the cutting edge, which subsequently leads to Stevie Haston proclaiming UK climbers are all shit etc.
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i,m looking forward to seeing what they make of the western hard routes if they come over.things like parologism will be a trainer ascent warm up
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You need to agree that certain routes are 'definitive'. To me, Ulysses was always definitive grit E6. Which is why i've always thought that the softies - life assurance, nosferatu, barriers in time, moonshine, janus, salmon l-hand etc i.e. the ones that get on-sighted loads, should come down to E5. At E7 stuff like Kaluza Klein should come down to E6, maybe even Dangerous Crocodile. i.e. F7a and below climbing. Rockfax to be fair seemed to be doing this and even Barriers was E5 in On Peak Rock. But then something like Never Never Land got upgraded to E7 (BMC Guide). Even at E7 there are routes with f8a or Font 7c+ climbing on them (Groove is in the heart), so they are clearly not within the same range as Never Never Land at F6c+.
Choose your Definitive E7, then one At E8, then strike off the ones at the bottom and the top (hint the ones at the bottom get done a lot). Simple. Ultimately it's the guidebook writer who "gives" the grade. Personally I think there's way too much status quo by guidebook writers pandering to our fragile egos or not wanting to upset Johnny. The fact is that most people are not 5'3, we have micro cams and 5.10 rubber.
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But then I suppose there are fb7b problems I can do everytime and without any trouble yet fb6b ones which I can repeatedly fall off due to their insecurity and conditionsyness. It doesn't mean they need their grades flipping.
As much as it baffles foreigners or brits that climb abroad too much I still think I know what I'm letting myself in for by the british trad grade of a route. When I stand at the bottom of Piece of Mind and read E6 6b, then stand beneath Master of Reality and read E6 6c it all makes perfect sense even if one of them is considerably easier than Marie Rose (sp?) and the other is more like pumpy F7b above crumbly wires.
The problem with E grades only comes in when we start comparing it to other systems, where it clearly doesn't fit.
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The hard routes should be up-graded. As cowboyhat quite rightly said, our system is open ended.
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UP-Grading?! :o What is this blasphemy of which you speak?
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I just wanted to inject a little historical perspective before everyone runs away with the idea the older routes are dead easy and were (either wilfully or delusionally) overgraded. This is just an example I can draw on from personal experience, and not an attempt at bigging myself up. When I did the third ascent of TEOTA in 92 it had lain unrepeated for 6 years. The floodgates didn't suddenly open afterwards - I don't think it got another repeat for several more years. So, it hasn' always been a trade route. At the time I had a solid track record in onsighting grit E6 (going back to Fistful - mooted by some as E7 - in 1985), had onsighted one route now graded E7 (The Salmon), and headpointed, ususally with v. light practice a bunch of E7s. Basically I think I knew the score and the TEOTA simply felt harder than everything else, E8 in fact. If it goes down to E7 so be it but I think if it does we will require MASS downgrading across grit.
As evidence of old skool overgrading everyone is citing a) routes like Kaluza Klein, Salmon L Hand and Never Never Land - but these are all routes that it has long since been accepted were overgraded or should never have been upgraded (in other words the evidence being used is extremely selective) and b) the number of repeats something like TEOTA gets compared to certain other routes. But that's because it has massive cachet. Its popular because it is a brilliant route of massive historical significance. Are hordes of people being repelled by, say, Marbellous? I suspect it is tried very little. There must be many people perfectly capable if only they tried. It can't the absolute living end if I could sort out the crux on a quick ab many moons ago.
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I think I was trying to say earlier that e grades are wacky and even though they are in the main correctly assigned, the system allows for an unwieldy range of difficulty at some top grades. Not that routes have been mis-graded per se and need changing, though in the odd case this will probably be true.
I think in most cases upgrading a few things is more the way to go rather than wholesale downgrading. Grade compression at the E6-8 level seems to be a possibility. The sensible way to re-distribute is upwards where the knock on effect is only onto a handful of >E9s, rather than downwards where you get a knock on effect onto thousands of <E5s. It’s not as if E5 isn’t already the widest E grade in the box.
Anyway, i should shut up pontificating about routes I have practically no experience of really.
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Exactly
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hello Bonjoy, I think you misunderstand me, perhaps on purpose. There is a great deal of difference between Gaie which should never have got the rep it did and some other routes. There is also a difference betwwen short bouldery routes and say a route like Ugly, & great deal of routes in britain could do with down grading. Improvements in pro has made a huge difference to some routes. Many of the classic E7s in wales are very solid now, and this is probably a good time to make that clear also. I pondered the question are British standards shit or not shit, because a lot of people are wondering, not because I am misinformed. In the area of France and Spain where I live, perhaps standards are as high as any in the world so I guess maybe I am being unfair. There are some very underated routes in Britain, we saw how basically the main stream had ignorred Birkit and his routes for a long time, there are a few people who need big upping and some routes also. There are also some routes which need a readjustment downward. I would be happy to meet with you and you could take me up a route or two, I am always willing to learn. Stevie
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The comment about you was very tongue in cheek. I forgot to use one of these - ;) .
I'm afraid that for all my talk I'm more of a classic E4/5 bagger than a gnarly E7/8 merchant. Just finding my feet on the trad again after mostly bouldering and sport climbing for the last few years.
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I never have difficulty finding my feet in trad. They are normally the things at the end of my long quaking legs.
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Yes but can you see them from all the way up there??
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Har har. At one point I couldn't, it was at that point I decided I needed glasses.
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sorry Bonjoy, Iam a little pm today, couldnt get on my climb etc. I am always happy to be taught a lesson though and am very interested in these threads, I think a lot of climbs in britain and some climbers need reassing. S. Myles was a great example of a very good climber swept under the carpet, Ugly is obviously harder than Gaiea, End of the affaif etc. Mag azeens have interesting agenders that very rarely coinside with the truth. Font is very sternly graded dont you think. Just watched Malc on his wee problem at dumbee, he looked solid I hope there is more in his tank, he looks lean and mean, goodluck to all. Stevie
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Hello, you can be ashamed or not, its up to you. I am not only ashamed I am fooking mortified. I loved it when Jerry went to France and Spanked them, I cheered when Ben did the so aptly named Maginot Line, I dont like it when Brits come 33rd in Comps, I would prefer Onda to be an eastern bloc worker seeking employment in Sheffield marrying a local girl and passing on some of the right stuff. You can feel that your not limited by being weak like some, you can pretend to be Mr Nice and not care that apart from Mclure we have no decent climbers but thats not me and thats not the feeling I got talking to lots of climbers in Wales. Ok its alot to do with people trying to sell stuff but the E grades are not based on what people can do onsight and yes we are very strong two inches above a mat. There are beasts in Britain just like in most places, but why(Paul B) cant we have beasts who can boulder, do multi pitch, and do the occaisional run out route. I am sorry but if I could boulder as hard as some of you lot, I would have been straight on Rhapsody laughing my head off and willingly taking falls. I am amazed at the increadibly high leval of bouldering in Britain, but a bit shocked at how little is done with it. I am very aware of all the good or lets say potentialy great climbers in Britain, but lets face it apart from Mclure and Ty(isnt he really a yank?) whats happening, the route in devon and the one on the Ben may well prove to be very hard but at a lower leval visiters are doing very well. When Antoine LeMenestral soloed Revelations it was a very black day, and there havent been many sunny ones since, thats just my opinion, I am not jumping on a band wagon, I would be very happy for things to change. Tie onto that rope Ty. Stevie
It sounds to me like you're being an arse.
What does it matter whether or not "they" are better than "us"?
You're making it sound like a football match.
You can be embarrassed about your own performance if you feel the need to,
but what others do or don't choose to do isn't really any of your business. Sorry. Si.
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The line has to be drawn somewhere but when one route gets 20 repeats (inc a couple of flashes) and another gets one or two (or none) in a similar time frame then we all know what the answer is.
Out of curiosity, has anyone any idea roughly how many ascents EOTA has had? Very roughly?
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The line has to be drawn somewhere but when one route gets 20 repeats (inc a couple of flashes) and another gets one or two (or none) in a similar time frame then we all know what the answer is.
Out of curiosity, has anyone any idea roughly how many ascents EOTA has had? Very roughly?
About 20+ people I know have done it, so I'm going to guess at 200 in total over the years. The most climbed E8 in the UK??
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Since when did you have 20 mates?
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Stallioni get back to that cellar board! :spank:
See you at the weekend.
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If you climb font 8b or whatever E8 should feel like E6. In the eighties the only person climbing font 8b was Peter Parker.
The routes haven't changed, we've improved.
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From James's blog:
I met up with them at a very windy Curbar, shortly after Alex had made a flash ascent of The End Of The Affair. In line with what I have said above, he was incredibly modest, and un-phased by this very news worthy ascent and told me, without a hint of snobbery or cockiness, that he felt the route was E6!
I thought of something Leo Houlding had said about how routes with a high historical value have been, and should continue to be, used as benchmarks for grading other routes by. I asked Alex to assume, from a historical perspective, that TEOTA is E8 (the grade it has been for the last 22 years) and then asked him what grade The Promise would be in relation to this? His answer was without hesitation – E10
Alex then said that the reason he and Kevin had thought The Promise not E10, is that they were under the impression that E10 and 7a were the limit of our grading scale – simply put, the hardest a traditional route could ever be.
More here: http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/ (http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/)
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If eota is still e8, the promise still e10, then is new statesman e11 as kevin thought it a grade harder? Someone must be wrong.
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would it be blasphemy to suggest that visiting climbers who've done half a dozen select routes probably aren't best placed to estimate grades? am I the only one thinking this?
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I'm with you dave when it comes to allocating an actual number to the routes but, as grimer said earlier, it's insightful to see these guys rate the routes purely in order of how hard they found them.
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Anyway, didn't they get out again yesterday? Conditions were pretty good yorkshire way, don't know about the peak...
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maybe, but surely, having done these routes in quick succession, free from a lot of the historical gravitas that sometimes you need to overcome on a British trad route (I think).
eg. for years, people said that you can't fall onto the flake on Parthian. I said it, and i believed it, even though i had no knowledge of it. Seb had to overcome that 'knowledge' which would have made his ascent more dificult than those who follow. Early repeats of big, mythical routes have to overcome legend too. See what JD says about Rock and Ice routes in Best Forgotten Art. In the same way, JD's routes had a huge aura, and that would need to be overcome, I imagine.
And that difficulty is real, surely, as it means that there are move things standing between a climber and success. In the same way as doing a first ascent is miles harder than doing a repeat. Isn't that why great climbers do FAs - or even first ground-ups - and others amass repeats. Isn't that, perhaps, why routes can get downgraded from FA grades. Because for the FAist, it is realy hard?
But still, perhaps now the aura of some routes have diminshed, and doing one of these routes is actually easier? Has a change in time now not mean that in 2008 it is easier to do EotA than it is to do Slab and Crack, even though the original grades suggest different?
And these americans are free of those burdens, and maybe these routes come with different footnotes. The footnote to Parthian is that the flake is bomber. The footnote to EotA is that endless punters have headpointed it. If you're shit hot, you know you can flash what a punter can headpoint (incidentally, by punter, i mean the me's of this world, not AP).
You might think that the yanks know nothing about grades, but they will know how hard the things they have done will stack up against each other.
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And these americans are free of those burdens
but are they? Ok they'd not been to the crags before, but have probably seen Hard Grit, and could well have read the same articles, seen the same websites, read the same guidebooks as locals. I know the american stereotype precludes this, but I bet they haven't lived in a bubble until now.
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hello Simes I sent you an Email but also decided to drop you a note here. Dont call people or me an arse just because they have a different view to you, there would be no point to forums or any discusion if they just decended into children calling each other arse. People calling each other names for no good cause is one of the reasons there are so few interesting people with views on here. If you do want to keep calling me names have the good grace to put your full name at the end of your message. Stevie.
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I agree with everything you say there Stevie, except for the bit about "so few interesting people with views on here", which even if true, is essentially broadly targeted mud-slinging.
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And these americans are free of those burdens
but are they? Ok they'd not been to the crags before, but have probably seen Hard Grit, and could well have read the same articles, seen the same websites, read the same guidebooks as locals. I know the american stereotype precludes this, but I bet they haven't lived in a bubble until now.
Yeah but these routes won't be talked about in the hushed tones that they are over here. So the come to them with little pre-conceptions. It's great to hear about Alex H just laybacking his way all the way up Ulysses as if it's just another highball on the Plantation circuit :lol:
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...which it might be now but probably wasn't when Neil Foster tried it...
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hello Simes I sent you an Email but also decided to drop you a note here. Dont call people or me an arse just because they have a different view to you, there would be no point to forums or any discusion if they just decended into children calling each other arse. People calling each other names for no good cause is one of the reasons there are so few interesting people with views on here. If you do want to keep calling me names have the good grace to put your full name at the end of your message. Stevie.
Like you have never slagged anyone off in your life Steve :)
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SA cris , not in a public forum for no reason, and while I,am at it, why doesnt he slag off Hocking and the other people who share my views, come on get real, to call some one an arse and then think some one might not be waiting out side the school playground, gee whizz. Sorry bonjoy there are lots of interesting people on this site and I have learnt some stuff here, I am thankful for that, thats what I am here for, to share opinions and get some info, not call people arses. I hope I have paid my dues by posting some interesting things up and sharing knowledge. Stevie.
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hello Simes I sent you an Email but also decided to drop you a note here. Dont call people or me an arse just because they have a different view to you, there would be no point to forums or any discusion if they just decended into children calling each other arse. People calling each other names for no good cause is one of the reasons there are so few interesting people with views on here. If you do want to keep calling me names have the good grace to put your full name at the end of your message. Stevie.
My full name is Simon Nadin. And I'm not joking. Cheers.
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My full name is Simon Nadin. And I'm not joking. Cheers.
The Simon Nadin (http://www.mountain-heritage.org/entity.php?ID=182)?
(Your vids show that you've grown some serious dreds since then if you are one and the same!)
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I hope I have paid my dues by posting some interesting things up and sharing knowledge. Stevie.
Definitely, I hope you stick around.
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Well said that man.
I bet there aren't many around who don't have a 'Stevie' story to tell along with their 'Johnny' stories (Dawes or Redhead). One of the things I like most about climbing isn't the climbing itself but the idiots you meet.
At the club where I started in Cleethorpes there was a guy who had the well deserved nickname of 'Harry the Bastard'. Most wouldn't dream of introducing him to their mothers, but to me at 18, well I thought he was a legend.
Climbing needs people who don't know any better than to be who they are. Don't go changing Stevie.
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My my.
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I don't know what's come over me this evening, that almost strayed into the realms of tie-die, fishermans trousers and yoghurt weaving. At least Four Weddings and a Funeral is on in a minute.
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My full name is Simon Nadin. And I'm not joking. Cheers.
The Simon Nadin (http://www.mountain-heritage.org/entity.php?ID=182)?
(Your vids show that you've grown some serious dreds since then if you are one and the same!)
I am Simon Nadin, but I've never been world champ. Si.