UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Vince Mcnally on September 28, 2014, 10:32:23 pm
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Jim Pope has red pointed revelations at Raven tor today
It was his second day on the route
We'll done Jim
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Who or what is Jim Pope?
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DC Jim Pope, yerr facking slaaaag.
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Second day? We need hours and minutes these days.
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Who or what is Jim Pope?
Vinces mate...
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https://twitter.com/jimpopeonarope
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Who or what is Jim Pope?
Jim's a youngish London based climber - 15? and still a short arse. Lovely lad, keen as mustard. Probably doesn't warrant a news post but he is on the way up and should see a lot more from him
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Who or what is Jim Pope?
Jim's a youngish London based climber - 15? and still a short arse. Lovely lad, keen as mustard. Probably doesn't warrant a news post but he is on the way up and should see a lot more from him
Watched him at the DWS under 16's, star quality a'coming. And seriously, "revelations" at 15 doesn't warrant a news post?
We are producing some world class kids and they should be encouraged!
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Isn't the Revelations start a notoriously knacky 7C? I think that's really impressive, well done Jim, and in this indian summer too!
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And seriously, "revelations" at 15 doesn't warrant a news post?
We are producing some world class kids and they should be encouraged!
An appropriate level of hype is required and world class includes Ashima.
I think the most impressive thing about this particular ascent is his height rather than his age.
Revelations is an odd one - Font 7C boulder problem into a 7c route or thereabouts.
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The most notable thing about this ascent is that it has ruined every single one of my excuses
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Who or what is Jim Pope?
Jim's a youngish London based climber - 15? and still a short arse. Lovely lad, keen as mustard. Probably doesn't warrant a news post but he is on the way up and should see a lot more from him
Watched him at the DWS under 16's, star quality a'coming. And seriously, "revelations" at 15 doesn't warrant a news post?
We are producing some world class kids and they should be encouraged!
Well done Jim , classic old route with a hard start that many cant do. But i really dont think a 15 year old repeating an 8a+/b from 1984 deserves its own news post. Maybe worth a mention in the significant repeats bit but thats it.
I dont want to sound like a miserable old c**t but surely things need to move on a bit in UK climbing. This level at this age was done decades ago and wouldnt even raise an eyebrow anywhere else in the world. And i am all for encouraging the youth but lets not over do it.
The fact that a lot of people in the UK are still really impressed by this is part of why we are so far behind the rest of the world in sports climbing. Unless your pre pubescient it should be 8b+ onsights, 9a redpoints or 8B+ boulders before they deserve there own post on here.
Its time for them to think big and this isnt.
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Good effort Jim! Although I hope he neither knows or cares about this thread...
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The most notable thing about this ascent is that it has ruined every single one of my excuses
Your friendly lawyers says, put on lots of weight, then you'll have another excuse. That will be £220 please.
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Ashima, is astounding, but like all of the very, very best is an exception.
We have several placed into the top 20 at the World youth comp. (Alex and Peter placed joint 19th and Will B 8th, Hannah 13th, Rebecca 18th), that's hardly a poor showing.
And...
How much harder do we imagine climbing can get?
Is anyone really expecting an 11a from the next generation?
Is no kid good enough unless they can hang from a roof by the nail of their little finger?
I'm psyched for the kid, the fact that Johnny was the Ondra of my generation and could do that bitd doesn't diminish the achievement of an 8a+/b in two days on redpoint.
Climbing must rapidly be running out of "harder" to go to, before the limits of human physiology shut it down.
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The most notable thing about this ascent is that it has ruined every single one of my excuses
Why, have you dropped out of full-time eployment, become a weightless brutally strong youth, too young to drink, and too motivated to stay off the cake all of a sudden? :)
If you need excuses, I've got dozens to spare.
Sounds like an excellent effort to me.
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Climbing must rapidly be running out of "harder" to go to, before the limits of human physiology shut it down.
People said that 20 years ago.
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Oh, yeah.
Has anyone thought how the climate of the UK, affects the quality of outdoor climbing?
If you are raised in California, Spain, even France, how many more climbing days do you get in a year?
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Ashima, is astounding, but like all of the very, very best is an exception.
We have several placed into the top 20 at the World youth comp. (Alex and Peter placed joint 19th and Will B 8th, Hannah 13th, Rebecca 18th), that's hardly a poor showing.
And...
How much harder do we imagine climbing can get?
Is anyone really expecting an 11a from the next generation?
Is no kid good enough unless they can hang from a roof by the nail of their little finger?
I'm psyched for the kid, the fact that Johnny was the Ondra of my generation and could do that bitd doesn't diminish the achievement of an 8a+/b in two days on redpoint.
Climbing must rapidly be running out of "harder" to go to, before the limits of human physiology shut it down.
I am happy for him as well, its a good effort for anyone to climb at that standard but it doesnt deserve its own thread. I never meant to to be a put down on Jim Pope and it still isn't despite whatever Jacob Jacob obviously thinks.
However i do think that by making a big deal about what are, on a world scale, pretty insignificant ascents, we are not helping develop the younger generation of climbers. Big fish in a small pond etc. It still seams to me that you can become a bit of a UK hero by redpointing an 8b-c or headpointing an E8, of which wouldnt get a mention in other countries. And its not just Ashima there are dozens and dozens of examples.
Until they start thinking big they wont get there.
And regards the comment about 11a, we will get there at some point, 9c isnt far away and 10a will happen in the next 15-20 years so why not more. Who would have ever though 9a would be onsighted and yet 2 people have now done it, more will follow and i would love to see one of them being from the UK.
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I dont want to sound like a miserable old c**t but
Then don't.
Of course its not significant in a world wide Adam Ondra, Usain Bolt sense but whats wrong with giving a kid some encouragement you miserable old cunt?
Jim is about 5'4" ATM, it is a flipping good effort. He's also pretty grounded, humble even, and probably won''t be phased reading this thread.
However gme your comment! This takes me back over twenty years to when I was that age. I quit the comps and actively avoided trying to get into any sort of Sheffield scene because of the negative bitchy environment that prevailed.
They are thinking big GME, despite this sort of negative bullshit. Some will be put off altogether, others will think fuck you I'll do it on my own.
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Jim Pope? Any relation to Tim Pope? and what is Shark doing in the Park? ;D
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/8185WTVyKBL.jpg)
I'll get my coat....
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Effort Jim!
I'm sure keen youths are well aware where they sit on the scale of world ascents, I bet they consume more climbing media than anyone else. I don't think this should stop the reporting of things which are nationally significant.
IMO publicising these ascents to encourage more young climbers onto rock and away from plastic is more likely to lead to a rise in national standards, rather than ignoring them because they are not hard on a global scale!
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Sounds to me like you're all trying to achieve the same thing by slightly different means. I don't think anyone is saying that its not a good effort, it is - he's from London so getting out to the Tor at his age then having the guts to get on a route which he's not just going to path is more of a factor than the weather. And of course we all want Jim to go on to climb in the 9's, I don't see why he won't - even Ondra is saying short is best!
Giving encouragement is really important, but I think gme is trying to make a good point here which is important for the long term development of all the young British climbers. Perspective is important, even if the standards in the uk are a notch behind the rest of the world (but the gap is closing), and gme is correct in saying that there are masses of kids climbing much harder stuff, because its all too easy for young kids to drop out if they get used to 'winning' too much.
This is a real issue is swimming - now good coaches who can gauge potential will deliberately hold back swimmers at a younger age, and will put them in competitions that they know they can't win so that the kid has continual long term progress.
I'm sure Jim is as obsessed with following the climbing media as many of us, so I doubt he's under any illusions as to where his current level of climbing is relative to others anyway.
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I for one would like to see a news thread only when the climber is younger than half the routes grade plus seven.
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And regards the comment about 11a, we will get there at some point, 9c isnt far away and 10a will happen in the next 15-20 years so why not more. Who would have ever though 9a would be onsighted and yet 2 people have now done it, more will follow and i would love to see one of them being from the UK.
Why not?
Because the incremental increase in difficulty becomes, inevitably, ever smaller and hence harder to define. This is already apparent from the arguing and bitching that goes on about current grades.
We start entering the realms of difficulty where the slightest change in a Myriad of subtle variables determine success or failure.
For me that's the crux.
If some future NBA, 8'3", star learns to leap 4mtrs into the air and latch a hold that no-one else could ever climb to, would it count?
I'd contend that 11a (or even 10a), will ever be so controversial and restricted to such a small sample of humanity, as to be meaningless.
Unless we have substantial genetic/bionic/tech modifications to contend with...
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I dont want to sound like a miserable old c**t but
Then don't.
Of course its not significant in a world wide Adam Ondra, Usain Bolt sense but whats wrong with giving a kid some encouragement you miserable old cunt?
Jim is about 5'4" ATM, it is a flipping good effort. He's also pretty grounded, humble even, and probably won''t be phased reading this thread.
However gme your comment! This takes me back over twenty years to when I was that age. I quit the comps and actively avoided trying to get into any sort of Sheffield scene because of the negative bitchy environment that prevailed.
They are thinking big GME, despite this sort of negative bullshit. Some will be put off altogether, others will think fuck you I'll do it on my own.
FFS what has this got to do with the so called Sheffield scene, did it steal your toys from your pram???. its nothing to do with Sheffield or its so called scene, i am i fact kind of having a go at the whole UK scene, of which Sheffield is part of unless its voted for some kind of Scottish type independence. I have not been bitchy or given negative bullshit in anyway at all. I commented on the reporting of this in reply to others questioning as to whether it warranted its own thread. I did not say anything negative about Jims ascent, rather i have complimented all along.
I personally think, and you obviously dont agree with me, that over-hyping young sports people can have a negative effect on there long term performance and that the UK climbing media can be guilty of this. Others would agree with me as if you google "over hyping young athletes" you will find numerous articles on the subject. There is a huge difference between encouragement and over hyping and i think that the UK climbing media is, and has been for some time, guilty of the latter.
If you dont agree with me cowboyhat i am sorry for that, how about putting some points forward to counter my argument rather than just accusing me of being bitchy or part of a fictitious scene that obviously upset you in the past.
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I personally think, and you obviously dont agree with me, that over-hyping young sports people can have a negative effect
:agree: :whistle:
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If some future NBA, 8'3", star learns to leap 4mtrs into the air and latch a hold that no-one else could ever climb to, would it count?
An 8'3" man wouldn't even be able to hold a pull-up bar one handed, never mind catching it after jumping. And forget about muscling up on the hold and topping out.
I'll go as far as saying that there will never be a boulder-problem with a top-out that a 8'3" man can do, that I cannot do.
I digress. But that's on purpose.
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I digress. But that's on purpose.
:smirk:
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Sorry to return this to the subject, but the achievement is to be welcomed and it is newsworthy. What others at the very cutting edge are doing grades wise is really rather beside the point: after all we didn't dismiss the early repoint repeats of this route because Antoine le menestrel soloed did 'we'?
Criticism of this chap with reference to what others have done is a rather unpleasant and snide put down; it's one thing to appreciate where the cutting edge is to be found, and another to use this to diminish the efforts of a boy/very young man.
As for over-hyping this chap, I don't see a hint of that, we's probably and quite rightly absolutely full of himself for nailing a pretty seminal route and the proper reaction should be along the lines of 'Id' buy you a pint but you're too young'. Do the media over hype things ? Yes, of course they do, do you uinderstand how the media operates?
GME, out of interest, how old were you when you climbed Revelations?
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And regards the comment about 11a, we will get there at some point, 9c isnt far away and 10a will happen in the next 15-20 years so why not more. Who would have ever though 9a would be onsighted and yet 2 people have now done it, more will follow and i would love to see one of them being from the UK.
Why not?
Because the incremental increase in difficulty becomes, inevitably, ever smaller and hence harder to define. This is already apparent from the arguing and bitching that goes on about current grades.
We start entering the realms of difficulty where the slightest change in a Myriad of subtle variables determine success or failure.
For me that's the crux.
If some future NBA, 8'3", star learns to leap 4mtrs into the air and latch a hold that no-one else could ever climb to, would it count?
I'd contend that 11a (or even 10a), will ever be so controversial and restricted to such a small sample of humanity, as to be meaningless.
Unless we have substantial genetic/bionic/tech modifications to contend with...
I don't know how to say this politely but i really don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. The difference between 7a and 8a is roughly the same as the difference between 8a and 9a i.e. huge and to say that grades move in ever decreasing increments is to betray your ignorance. If anything people at the top end will hold grades down until there is a step change (obviously we forgot this with E grades) making it possible to talk about bottom end and top end of said grades. Your contention earlier that there isn't much difference between an 8b and the top end is strange to say the least. Well there is a difference and it is about 30 years.
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I dont want to sound like a miserable old c**t but
Then don't.
Of course its not significant in a world wide Adam Ondra, Usain Bolt sense but whats wrong with giving a kid some encouragement you miserable old cunt?
Jim is about 5'4" ATM, it is a flipping good effort. He's also pretty grounded, humble even, and probably won''t be phased reading this thread.
However gme your comment! This takes me back over twenty years to when I was that age. I quit the comps and actively avoided trying to get into any sort of Sheffield scene because of the negative bitchy environment that prevailed.
They are thinking big GME, despite this sort of negative bullshit. Some will be put off altogether, others will think fuck you I'll do it on my own.
FFS what has this got to do with the so called Sheffield scene, did it steal your toys from your pram???. its nothing to do with Sheffield or its so called scene, i am i fact kind of having a go at the whole UK scene, of which Sheffield is part of unless its voted for some kind of Scottish type independence. I have not been bitchy or given negative bullshit in anyway at all. I commented on the reporting of this in reply to others questioning as to whether it warranted its own thread. I did not say anything negative about Jims ascent, rather i have complimented all along.
I personally think, and you obviously don't agree with me, that over-hyping young sports people can have a negative effect on there long term performance and that the UK climbing media can be guilty of this. Others would agree with me as if you google "over hyping young athletes" you will find numerous articles on the subject. There is a huge difference between encouragement and over hyping and i think that the UK climbing media is, and has been for some time, guilty of the latter.
If you dont agree with me cowboyhat i am sorry for that, how about putting some points forward to counter my argument rather than just accusing me of being bitchy or part of a fictitious scene that obviously upset you in the past.
Ok I'll write a blog about it, and I will send you a link.
And yes I realise I over reacted, I have my own baggage so to speak.
'that over-hyping young sports people can have a negative effect on there long term performance and that the UK climbing media can be guilty of this', obviously nothing. I agree, its a fine balance. Often this will be be the effect it may or may not have on the individual involved, it is personality. How do you know how this kid will react?
In your other post you said 'The fact that a lot of people in the UK are still really impressed by this is part of why we are so far behind the rest of the world in sports climbing.'
This ties in with the 'media' (being ukb/c and mags, formerly just mags), and its a complex issue. I'm interested to hear what you think the other parts are, I had a lengthy chat with DemoHatch in the wall the other night on this exact topic and I was going to write it down.
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If some future NBA, 8'3", star learns to leap 4mtrs into the air and latch a hold that no-one else could ever climb to, would it count?
An 8'3" man wouldn't even be able to hold a pull-up bar one handed, never mind catching it after jumping. And forget about muscling up on the hold and topping out.
I'll go as far as saying that there will never be a boulder-problem with a top-out that a 8'3" man can do, that I cannot do.
I digress. But that's on purpose.
Nothing wrong with digression, that's a UKB norm.😝
So... Poor example, granted.
However, where do you draw the line between "Freaky" and "within human capacity"?
It's not an important question, I just wonder.
It's a shame that the only way to find out if too much positive encouragement is detrimental (or the inverse) is to act it out in reality.
Hopefully Jim just doesn't give a shit, climbs because he likes climbing and not for approbation.
I hope his success spurs him to try something harder soon.
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Matt, I'm really not sure what you are getting yourself worked up about here.
News by definition is something that is extraordinary or unusually interesting. This is a national audience (and Nibs + Sasquatch) and the level of interest/extraordinariness regarding redpoints has to be placed in context to the current state of play. In context Jim's ascent is something that is on the fringe of being newsworthy.
I agree with whoever commented that this more suited to the significant repeats thread rather than deserving a new thread on its own. For example Ellis Butler-Barker at 17 has recently onsighted 8b and redpointed 8c which I dont think got mentioned on the significant repeats thread let alone a separate news thread.
Making these sort of points arent to put Jim down (or young people in general) but to place his achievement in context though it is often construed as such when this sort of thing crops up.
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I'm also not sure about how starting a new topic on UKB counts as 'overhyping' either. If people aren't interested in topics they will fade into the background.
It would be interesting to look at youths who have been formerly hyped/overhyped in the British climbing media, and how they've got on since. I guess the more positive examples such as Tyler and Shauna spring to mind more readily than those who might not have gone on to achieve the same success.
Oh and Cowboyhat, count me in for a link to your origin story blogpost!
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As for over-hyping this chap, I don't see a hint of that, we's probably and quite rightly absolutely full of himself for nailing a pretty seminal route and the proper reaction should be along the lines of 'Id' buy you a pint but you're too young'. Do the media over hype things ? Yes, of course they do, do you uinderstand how the media operates?
I rolled up at the right side of the Tor yesterday when Jim (didnt know it was him- just thought it was a random small boy...) walked down and when asked casually mentioned that he'd just done his first 8b and admitted he was pretty pleased... Very low key about it, didnt seem to be shouting about it, just chuffed as anyone would be.
It's missing the point though to say 'news' as it hasn't been reported as such has it?- just a big up from a mate for him on the forums ? Personally I think its borderline news/ significant repeat, but as others have said its pretty unlikely that he doesn't know where he stands relating to others achievements if thats what motivates him.
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Ok I'll write a blog about it, and I will send you a link.
And yes I realise I over reacted, I have my own baggage so to speak.
'that over-hyping young sports people can have a negative effect on there long term performance and that the UK climbing media can be guilty of this', obviously nothing. I agree, its a fine balance. Often this will be be the effect it may or may not have on the individual involved, it is personality. How do you know how this kid will react?
In your other post you said 'The fact that a lot of people in the UK are still really impressed by this is part of why we are so far behind the rest of the world in sports climbing.'
This ties in with the 'media' (being ukb/c and mags, formerly just mags), and its a complex issue. I'm interested to hear what you think the other parts are, I had a lengthy chat with DemoHatch in the wall the other night on this exact topic and I was going to write it down.
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Please do send me a link to your blog if you write something as i am genuinely interested, hence why I commented in the first place. Despite what you might think I didn't do it to disparage a young climbers ascent.
I have no idea what effect it will have on this individual as i dont know them, it can go both ways. I do know however, both 1st hand and anecdotally, that in many cases the big fish in the small pond that gets transferred to the big pond often retreats back to where it is more comfortable rather than accepting its new position and trying to grow. This is often caused, or made worse, by the childs abilities being overplayed by parents and media.
I suppose its the ones that can deal with being a small fish that go on to become the very best.
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Good effort Jim Pope
My opinion on the topic. I agree, 8b by a 15 year old is not highly significant however in the UK we are in a total “Catch 22” hence the reason why this is still considered significant.
There is no financial support for young climbers in the UK, therefore most of the time climbing has to be done within the UK. UK does not have loads of hard routes or boulders, so you are very limited in what you can try, and when conditions are thrown in there, this ultimately all limits progression. Furthermore, generally speaking, most modern UK climbing walls are tailored towards steep climbing on positive holds, which does not reflect the majority of rock we have in the UK. Thats why you get people going aboard doing 9a’s, 8B+ etc, but still not doing them over here in the UK.
Further to this we have this completely weird negative attitude in the UK, that if you promote yourself you are frowned upon, sell out, uncool etc. etc. We seem to like this ‘undeground’ ‘keep it to yourself’ image, which does absolutely nothing to help the “UK Scene” develop and grow.
So all in all, I would argue that this is nationally significant.
Good effort Jim Pope, keep it up, don't be put off by negativity in the UK climbing scene.
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Good effort Jim Pope, keep it up, don't be put off by negativity in the UK climbing scene.
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No one is being negative.
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Granted, I was referring to the bigger picture, not just this post.
Good effort Jim Pope, keep it up, don't be put off by negativity in the UK climbing scene.
No one is being negative.
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If you dont agree with me cowboyhat i am sorry for that, how about putting some points forward to counter my argument
In terms of facts GME, how many ascents of 8b's have there been by <16 year olds in the UK? How low would the number have to be to make this ascent newsworthy?
Did your young padawan climb 8b at 15 or was he still trialaleting?
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I agree with whoever commented that this more suited to the significant repeats thread rather than deserving a new thread on its own.
Move original post to "significant repeats", move rest to logpile?
And then move on...
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I agree with whoever commented that this more suited to the significant repeats thread rather than deserving a new thread on its own.
Move original post to "significant repeats"
That's what I should have done originally :spank:
Mind you - so should Dave seeing he was first to reply :jab:
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Logpile please - my eyes are bleeding. Or can everyone just promise not to post any more ~ then it will fade into the chipwrappers and detritus of old UKB threads...
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Why logpile?
I enjoy the way that UKB topics drift off there original subjects and this is interesting to me. If anyone bothers to read it they will soon be aware that its nothing to do with the original title. Logpiling something because it might upset someone is not what UKB is about surely.
There is nothing controversial said, its not having ago at any individual and its talking about media portrayal of UK climbing and its potential effect on development. Surely at least as interesting as most of the shite we prattle on about on here every day. And if not being interesting to people is a reason to logpile something then the whole site is a bit fucked.
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What GME said, people who aren't interested in the topic are free not to open it!
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I don't know how to say this politely but i really don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. The difference between 7a and 8a is roughly the same as the difference between 8a and 9a i.e. huge and to say that grades move in ever decreasing increments is to betray your ignorance. If anything people at the top end will hold grades down until there is a step change (obviously we forgot this with E grades) making it possible to talk about bottom end and top end of said grades. Your contention earlier that there isn't much difference between an 8b and the top end is strange to say the least. Well there is a difference and it is about 30 years.
That's polite enough.
It's not as if I can see into the future.
And more than happy to admit that I could be way, way off base.
Our ability to climb, it would seem logical to say, must ultimately be limited by our physiology and therefore finite.
So there must at some point come a "hardest grade it is possible for a human to climb" is achieved. Without considerable evolution/genetic modification, of course and that might be possible soon.
I think you're right about the time spans/effort/training that it takes to progress from 8a to 9a and how it reflects the difference between 7a and 8a.
But.
But anything which is approaching it's physical limits must become influenced by ever smaller variables.
I don't know how much further it can go, but there will come a point where, even if you could stage the exact conditions and ability of the climber, you may never achieve a repeat ascent, because something too minor to be observable is not the same.
So, I'd still contend that there must be an end point. A maximum grade, beyond which humans cannot progress.
Maybe I've implied that somehow the difference between grades gets smaller, that's not what I meant.
I mean that it takes a greater and greater effort to shave less and less from the block of "possible".
Think of a sprinter. The margins shaved from the world record time become smaller and smaller as each generation passes. The effort required to beat that target will only increase.
How can climbing be different?
And it's taken me so long to draft this on a busy afternoon that I've probably missed half the conversation...
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Matt, I'm really not sure what you are getting yourself worked up about here.
News by definition is something that is extraordinary or unusually interesting. This is a national audience (and Nibs + Sasquatch) and the level of interest/extraordinariness regarding redpoints has to be placed in context to the current state of play. In context Jim's ascent is something that is on the fringe of being newsworthy.
I agree with whoever commented that this more suited to the significant repeats thread rather than deserving a new thread on its own. For example Ellis Butler-Barker at 17 has recently onsighted 8b and redpointed 8c which I dont think got mentioned on the significant repeats thread let alone a separate news thread.
Making these sort of points arent to put Jim down (or young people in general) but to place his achievement in context though it is often construed as such when this sort of thing crops up.
Not worked up!
Debate is the spice of life!
And always prepared to change an opinion. It's probably typing between customers on a busy day, leaving my turn of phrase off kilter!
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UKB works a 'little/lot' different to ukc in that for most subjects, there's already a thread. I suspect the OP wasn't aware of this when he posted and give no thought to the matter, he's only made two posts after all.
Well done Jim, it's mighty impressive and I'd say a significant repeat. Well, that's where I'd like to have read about it.
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Matt, I'm really not sure what you are getting yourself worked up about here.
News by definition is something that is extraordinary or unusually interesting. This is a national audience (and Nibs + Sasquatch) and the level of interest/extraordinariness regarding redpoints has to be placed in context to the current state of play. In context Jim's ascent is something that is on the fringe of being newsworthy.
I agree with whoever commented that this more suited to the significant repeats thread rather than deserving a new thread on its own. For example Ellis Butler-Barker at 17 has recently onsighted 8b and redpointed 8c which I dont think got mentioned on the significant repeats thread let alone a separate news thread.
Making these sort of points arent to put Jim down (or young people in general) but to place his achievement in context though it is often construed as such when this sort of thing crops up.
Not worked up!
Debate is the spice of life!
And always prepared to change an opinion. It's probably typing between customers on a busy day, leaving my turn of phrase off kilter!
Oh, and Ellis is seriously good.
I'm expecting great things from him.
Shame he's not talking to me anymore.
Sometimes in life you just say things the wrong way and piss people off.
I'm rather good at that.
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To take your point "how can climbing be different" quite easily. If you don't understand the difference in putting one foot in front of the other for 100 metres and something as ridiculous and fickle as ascending a piece of rock unlike any other piece of rock then I think we've all got problems.
To take your other points on finite levels, yes that's all very well but as climbers we're nowhere near them. Take say first round first minute 9b, it's got an 8B crux for the sake of argument, how do we make this harder? I'll go out on a limb and say add another 8B move and another and another. This is physical factors alone.
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I don't know how to say this politely but i really don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. The difference between 7a and 8a is roughly the same as the difference between 8a and 9a i.e. huge and to say that grades move in ever decreasing increments is to betray your ignorance. If anything people at the top end will hold grades down until there is a step change (obviously we forgot this with E grades) making it possible to talk about bottom end and top end of said grades. Your contention earlier that there isn't much difference between an 8b and the top end is strange to say the least. Well there is a difference and it is about 30 years.
That's polite enough.
It's not as if I can see into the future.
And more than happy to admit that I could be way, way off base.
Our ability to climb, it would seem logical to say, must ultimately be limited by our physiology and therefore finite.
So there must at some point come a "hardest grade it is possible for a human to climb" is achieved. Without considerable evolution/genetic modification, of course and that might be possible soon.
I think you're right about the time spans/effort/training that it takes to progress from 8a to 9a and how it reflects the difference between 7a and 8a.
But.
But anything which is approaching it's physical limits must become influenced by ever smaller variables.
I don't know how much further it can go, but there will come a point where, even if you could stage the exact conditions and ability of the climber, you may never achieve a repeat ascent, because something too minor to be observable is not the same.
So, I'd still contend that there must be an end point. A maximum grade, beyond which humans cannot progress.
Maybe I've implied that somehow the difference between grades gets smaller, that's not what I meant.
I mean that it takes a greater and greater effort to shave less and less from the block of "possible".
Think of a sprinter. The margins shaved from the world record time become smaller and smaller as each generation passes. The effort required to beat that target will only increase.
How can climbing be different?
And it's taken me so long to draft this on a busy afternoon that I've probably missed half the conversation...
I agree with the tapering returns as per sprinting but i think we are so far off this in climbing. I feel we will see 9c within 3 years, 9c+ within 10 and 10a within 20. And not just by Ondra either as i feel we will see a lot of people suddenly doing 9a+/b as because Ondra and Megos are doing them easy others will try and succeed. Which is kind of the point i have been making all along, if 8b is seen as really hard then its mentally hard to do it.
Move the idea that things don't get hard until 9a+ and psychologically 9a becomes easier to achieve.
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I agree with whoever commented that this more suited to the significant repeats thread rather than deserving a new thread on its own.
Move original post to "significant repeats"
That's what I should have done originally :spank:
Mind you - so should Dave seeing he was first to reply :jab:
Hardly my place to move it, given I had no idea who jim pope was, and I have no idea if a vintage 8b done by a 15 year old is news or not.
What is interesting to me in these types of debate is the tacit assumption that an advancement in standards, or more sponsorship available, or keeping up with global standards, is "good for the sport". There could be an argument for saying that on a small densely populated island with a finite supply of decent rock that we should be pushing for standards to increase at a snails pace if we are to have anything worthwhile left for future generations.
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To take your point "how can climbing be different" quite easily. If you don't understand the difference in putting one foot in front of the other for 100 metres and something as ridiculous and fickle as ascending a piece of rock unlike any other piece of rock then I think we've all got problems.
To take your other points on finite levels, yes that's all very well but as climbers we're nowhere near them. Take say first round first minute 9b, it's got an 8B crux for the sake of argument, how do we make this harder? I'll go out on a limb and say add another 8B move and another and another. This is physical factors alone.
Hmmm..
True.
But that means our grading system is to imprecise. Too subjective.
So the crux grade is perhaps more relevant?
I do appreciate the difference between sprinting and climbing, but the analogy is valid as it would be across any activity which relies on physical prowess.
Obviously I don't know what is ultimately possible, but I'm less hopeful of seeing unending progress than some posters...
We might see an individual who links 100 consecutive 8C boulder problems, whilst placing gear on lead.
Or we might not.
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It's not predicting unending progress to say that climbing is miles away from other sports when it comes to knowledge about training and also still has relatively tiny numbers participating.
Because of these two points I think grades will continue to increase for a very long time to come.
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I personally think, and you obviously dont agree with me, that over-hyping young sports people can have a negative effect
:agree: :whistle:
:agree: Gme's points don't seem negative to me, but well thought out and fair.
To those arguing that hype encourages people to do better - does it really attract and encourage athletes 'more' if you set the bar for recognition low? Or does it attract/encourage athletes more if the bar for recognition is high, and thus more time and effort is required to get a metaphorical pat on the head and a tickle behind the ears?
The best sport climber in the UK by a country mile is one of the last people you'd associate with hyperbole, self-promotion and needing external rewards. There are plenty of others - Pasquill etc. That proves media hype is definitely not a requirement for success.
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Over hyping may well encourage a little creative writing too, or make people feel under too much pressure, or make them think they're already strong enough so can ease off on the training, or many other things I'm sure.
I don't think anyone is over hyping jim's achievement, since they haven't said that he'll definitely tick x grade next year or crush all the comps or any such nonsense.
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in many cases the big fish in the small pond that gets transferred to the big pond often retreats back to where it is more comfortable rather than accepting its new position and trying to grow.
If there are too many tadpoles in a pond a hormone reaches a level which retards the development of all.
I suppose its the ones that can deal with being a small fish that go on to become the very best.
Or those that avoid the negative environment of the crowded pond in the first place.
Some fish thrive in a competitive, crowded environment, but many others don't. If you want to carry on with the fish analogy a fish will grow more quickly when it isn't wasting time and energy fighting others. Climbing remains a very individual pursuit and if you look at the recent top players in British climbing I'd say they tend towards the lone outsider than the clique hero.
Ambition that might have driven a climber towards significant ascents may be more easily satisfied by earning the respect of a clique of top climbers. My list of who I consider the best climbers in the UK would have significant differences from a list of the most accomplished - i.e. the best on paper. History will favour the latter.
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I don't know how to say this politely but i really don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. The difference between 7a and 8a is roughly the same as the difference between 8a and 9a i.e. huge and to say that grades move in ever decreasing increments is to betray your ignorance. If anything people at the top end will hold grades down until there is a step change (obviously we forgot this with E grades) making it possible to talk about bottom end and top end of said grades. Your contention earlier that there isn't much difference between an 8b and the top end is strange to say the least. Well there is a difference and it is about 30 years.
That's polite enough.
It's not as if I can see into the future.
And more than happy to admit that I could be way, way off base.
Our ability to climb, it would seem logical to say, must ultimately be limited by our physiology and therefore finite.
So there must at some point come a "hardest grade it is possible for a human to climb" is achieved. Without considerable evolution/genetic modification, of course and that might be possible soon.
I think you're right about the time spans/effort/training that it takes to progress from 8a to 9a and how it reflects the difference between 7a and 8a.
But.
But anything which is approaching it's physical limits must become influenced by ever smaller variables.
I don't know how much further it can go, but there will come a point where, even if you could stage the exact conditions and ability of the climber, you may never achieve a repeat ascent, because something too minor to be observable is not the same.
So, I'd still contend that there must be an end point. A maximum grade, beyond which humans cannot progress.
Maybe I've implied that somehow the difference between grades gets smaller, that's not what I meant.
I mean that it takes a greater and greater effort to shave less and less from the block of "possible".
Think of a sprinter. The margins shaved from the world record time become smaller and smaller as each generation passes. The effort required to beat that target will only increase.
How can climbing be different?
And it's taken me so long to draft this on a busy afternoon that I've probably missed half the conversation...
I agree with the tapering returns as per sprinting but i think we are so far off this in climbing. I feel we will see 9c within 3 years, 9c+ within 10 and 10a within 20. And not just by Ondra either as i feel we will see a lot of people suddenly doing 9a+/b as because Ondra and Megos are doing them easy others will try and succeed. Which is kind of the point i have been making all along, if 8b is seen as really hard then its mentally hard to do it.
Move the idea that things don't get hard until 9a+ and psychologically 9a becomes easier to achieve.
Psychology will only carry us so far.
It's inevitable that there will be more people capable of climbing hard, as time goes by. Mainly because there will be more people.
It's not predicting unending progress to say that climbing is miles away from other sports when it comes to knowledge about training and also still has relatively tiny numbers participating.
Because of these two points I think grades will continue to increase for a very long time to come.
Yes.
But, I reckon it's going to slow down and it might just take a very long time indeed to see, say, 10b.
And it might get hard to know if things are moving really slowly or stalled completely.
Or it might not.
We might be on the verge of discovering some genetic trait/population/training technique (or what ever) that sends things sky rocketing.
The reason sprinting occurred to me, is that it is (perhaps, idk) the most heavily researched sport going. Nation states have pumped vast resources into optimising training etc etc.
It's opinion. My crystal ball is in for servicing and I plumb forgot to do a PHD thesis in preparation for this UKB thread.
And I never meant to imply that 8b was close to 9a...
Lots of sports are reaching the limit of their possible achievement envelope (Freediving springs to mind).
Ok, assuming I'm wrong, how far do you think it will go?
Best guess.
Idle speculation.
Because this is the equivalent of a conversation over a pint on a Friday night.
Not the UN debating Syria.
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...
Obviously I don't know what is ultimately possible, but I'm less hopeful of seeing unending progress than some posters...
We might see an individual who links 100 consecutive 8C boulder problems, whilst placing gear on lead.
Or we might not.
Which highlights what Jasper said. It doesn't require 100 font whatevers for the grade level to rise - it would only require two 8C cruxes linked by easier climbing (placing gear or not) to be a new level. Plenty of room yet for climbing standards to get eye-bleedingly hard.
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What do you mean free diving springs to mind matt? How come we're at the limits of that? Who says?
And how do you expect to have a conversation in a pub where the other guy says all the time " we will do that, or we may not" "this is possible maybe, or maybe not". It's a very strange chat were someone plays both sides of the coin at every oppurtunity, or it might not be ;)
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I wrote that pete! :furious:
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Standards will continue to rise because the only measure we have is entirely subjective.
I.e. if it were sprinting the scale would be logarithmic with respect to time (that is if you can imagine sprinting taking place on one lane tracks in a world without clocks or a notion of measuring time other than canvassing opinions of the runners).
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What do you mean free diving springs to mind matt? How come we're at the limits of that? Who says?
And how do you expect to have a conversation in a pub where the other guy says all the time " we will do that, or we may not" "this is possible maybe, or maybe not". It's a very strange chat were someone plays both sides of the coin at every oppurtunity, or it might not be ;)
'Cos I'm not playing fair Dense, sorry.
I'm not playing both sides of the coin. I don't believe humans can go much further.
The Freediving debate is on going, but it does look as though there is a maximum amount of O2 that can be contained in the human blood stream. A maximum amount of dissolved CO2 and minimum that a metabolism can be dropped to.
Currently, unless I missed something, no organisation will even touch "No limits Apnea" because it generally just kills people.
I was a Trimix addict for many years, so I'm blown away by Herbert's 250 odd meters. My erstwhile Buddy, John Bennet, held the world record for SCUBA (on Trimix) at 300 mtrs.
Only 50 mtrs deeper than a Freediver!
Fuck me bendy!
I never had the guts to go below 135.
I bottled it and stopped diving completely after one accident too many.
John died.
But, it is fairly well agreed that Herbert Nichts (or how ever it's spelled) has probably gone as far as can be.
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But that just backs up the point that climbing is currently miles away from such physical limits.
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I wrote that pete! :furious:
I'm posting on the shoulders of giants!
Drugs common in hard sport climbing? I'd have thought stuff that boosts intense PE (AeroPow to all you Easterners and converts) would be beneficial for cutting-edge sport climbs.
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Free-diving or sprinting are pointless comparisons because we don't have a tape measure or a stopwatch. So going an inch further could be three grades harder because you've no idea that it was just an inch.
I think the main limit is still psychological - what is considered possible. Otherwise kids couldn't progress to the cutting edge so fast.
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But that just backs up the point that climbing is currently miles away from such physical limits.
Does it?
Bollocks to it though.
Because JB IS RIGHT. As long as there are a very small number of climbers able to make the call that X is harder than Y, then infinite scope exists for "harder".
Bugger.
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Standards will continue to rise because the only measure we have is entirely subjective.
I.e. if it were sprinting the scale would be logarithmic with respect to time (that is if you can imagine sprinting taking place on one lane tracks in a world without clocks or a notion of measuring time other than canvassing opinions of the runners).
Raises the interesting point of at what point does something become more subjective than objective. Because clearly it isn't subjective that a f8a is physically more difficult to climb than a f6a - it's objective, no matter what shape or how long your arms are or aren't. At some point it becomes subjective because humans are different shapes and sizes with different strengths and weaknesses; but the routes are objective physical things with definite physical boundaries that can be measured - if anyone was geeky enough to model them using some software. Discrete steps between grades are agreed on by consensus of different shaped/sized people, so while some subjectivity remains it isn't entirely so.
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It would be great if you could measure/ model these things objectively, but I doubt it will ever happen. For example a successful model would be able to predict easier sequences than may yet have been discovered or combined - so it would probably downgrade everything.
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Isn't it wonderful. In a world where most things seem to be quantified - we participate in a sport/pastime where the measurement is completely qualitative!
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Completely qualitatively? font 6A / font 7C - the difference isn't completely qualitative is it? Somewhere as the grades get closer maybe (the planck length of grades?) but not at wide differences.
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It would be great if you could measure/ model these things objectively, but I doubt it will ever happen. For example a successful model would be able to predict easier sequences than may yet have been discovered or combined - so it would probably downgrade everything.
But the route must change with each passage.
A little more polish here, an eroded crystal there.
That crimp that hurt so much, might not be quite so sharp for the second ascensionist.
That tight mono pocket, a little deeper, slightly more positive.
I surrender, can't fight fog.
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This reminds me of a grade algorithm idea for computing objective grades that somebody once posted, and which I may have been sad enough to copy/save...:
'In the Facebook Movie there is a scene where the Facebook founders create a web site for rating women based on the pictures in the university facebook. The idea is to display pictures of two women and ask which one is 'hottest'. The computer then uses thousands of these comparisons to come up with an overall 'hotness' ranking using a pretty simple algorithm created by Prof Arpad Elo for ranking Chess players based on match results.
So why not apply the Elo algorithm to compute 'fair' climbing grades? Instead of having experts grade a climb or have climbers vote on what grade should be why not simply ask people entering a completed climb on a database whether it is easier or harder than a randomly selected different route from their logbook.
As the data builds up the computer uses the Elo algorithm to compute a numeric 'difficulty' score for every climb in the database based on lots of climb versus climb comparisons. Then the system simply maps conventional climbing grades onto ranges of the numeric Elo score (e.g. any climb with an Elo score of 2500-2700 is called 6a because a particularly famous 'benchmark' 6a has an Elo score of 2600).
The result could be an objective and self-correcting climbing difficulty grade which is consistent across geographic locations and applies to both indoor and outdoor.'
:unsure:
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This reminds me of a grade algorithm idea for computing objective grades that somebody once posted, and which I may have been sad enough to copy/save...:
'In the Facebook Movie there is a scene where the Facebook founders create a web site for rating women based on the pictures in the university facebook. The idea is to display pictures of two women and ask which one is 'hottest'. The computer then uses thousands of these comparisons to come up with an overall 'hotness' ranking using a pretty simple algorithm created by Prof Arpad Elo for ranking Chess players based on match results.
So why not apply the Elo algorithm to compute 'fair' climbing grades? Instead of having experts grade a climb or have climbers vote on what grade should be why not simply ask people entering a completed climb on a database whether it is easier or harder than a randomly selected different route from their logbook.
As the data builds up the computer uses the Elo algorithm to compute a numeric 'difficulty' score for every climb in the database based on lots of climb versus climb comparisons. Then the system simply maps conventional climbing grades onto ranges of the numeric Elo score (e.g. any climb with an Elo score of 2500-2700 is called 6a because a particularly famous 'benchmark' 6a has an Elo score of 2600).
The result could be an objective and self-correcting climbing difficulty grade which is consistent across geographic locations and applies to both indoor and outdoor.'
:unsure:
Because of the small sample size at the top end.
If you only had two opinions and they differed,you have no result.
If they agree you have a high probability of a completely false result.
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I was a Trimix addict for many years,
As an ignoramus, I had to resort to googling to clarify your email....
Trimix (injection)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Trimix is an injectable three-drug prescribed medication used to treat erectile dysfunction.
apologies for lowering the tone!
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Ambition that might have driven a climber towards significant ascents may be more easily satisfied by earning the respect of a clique of top climbers. My list of who I consider the best climbers in the UK would have significant differences from a list of the most accomplished - i.e. the best on paper. History will favour the latter.
[/quote]
Sometimes I wonder if we are talking about/ participating in the same hobby/pastime/ sport. And then I realise that we are not.
I would suggest that the very nature of the type of climbers that we are talking about( sport climbers, sponsored, British team members, blog writers, social media users) are more in line with my view of the sport, to which my points were directed, than yours.
I am not saying one is better than the other but I never expected you to agree with anything I posted.
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Awesome effort Jim. Having been on this route to try it myself and watching the video of him doing it.... I'm Impressed at the ease he does the boulder problem.
Whatever the grade and whatever people think on what should be accepted as newsworthy for a BRIT on a UK FORUM,.... This ascent deserves a hats off and unless you've been on the route in question, I'm not sure you'll fully understand.
I know UKCLIMBING and UKBOULDERING report on international news but I also enjoy reading on the developments of our country men and country women's performances of any age.
On and upwards Jim. :2thumbsup:
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I was a Trimix addict for many years,
As an ignoramus, I had to resort to googling to clarify your email....
Trimix (injection)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Trimix is an injectable three-drug prescribed medication used to treat erectile dysfunction.
apologies for lowering the tone!
At my age I'd probably get more from that definition than the breathing gas...
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any excuse.... "the viagra is for my angina".....
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My list of who I consider the best climbers in the UK would have significant differences from a list of the most accomplished - i.e. the best on paper. History will favour the latter.
This intrigues me. What do you value in terms of being the best, if not accomplishment of some sort? I can see that the relative importance of different accomplishments will be different from different perspectives,and that grades might not reflect this accurately, but are you saying that you actually value some idea of 'talent' or 'potential' more highly? Your list of the best might very well be another's list of those with the most wasted potential... To me, talent means f all until it's converted.
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To me, talent means f all until it's converted.
...into 8a.nu points. :agree:
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My list of who I consider the best climbers in the UK would have significant differences from a list of the most accomplished - i.e. the best on paper. History will favour the latter.
This intrigues me. What do you value in terms of being the best
I think it was Rolph Harris in the climbing film Progression who said -
"you can only be the best if you compete with the best and say hey best! I am the best'
It's a mantra I tell myself every morning.
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Two aspects to this; firstly climbing is a broad sport with no clear lines between disciplines. Most posting above I'd guess to consider sport climbing to be the blue riband event. But what distance? Gav probably believes short power routes are the ultimate, Alex probably longer routes. But this is a bouldering forum, so we should probably consider all sport irrelevant stamina plods. If we were in the US long granite routes might be seen as the ultimate, in Scotland you're irrelevant unless you do some mixed. E.g. I'm sure Hazel could tell us if freeing the Pre-Muir was harder than Spanish 8c. Is that the answer - or should we be more objective and consider how many people have done each, or wait for a consensus to arise as with grades?
Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together. He didn't do any other climbing other than training, and performs badly when onsighting or in the one competition he entered, despite being the only 8c+ climber in it. On rest days he rests, no matter what the weather.
Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?
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The latter, because onsighting is gooooood, but also the latter should pull his finger out, if he can do 8c in a few days without specific training for it, he should bloody well be able to do 9a over a year. Thus he's theoretically the best by the standards of the first climber too.
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You're still talking about accomplishments, just deciding how much value to place on them.. E.g. max grade vs being consistent, being an all rounder etc. I think perhaps your first post was a bit unclear and my interpretation of it wasn't how you meant it.
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Ah okay, that might explain Gav's post which I don't get.
The point is climber A will get in the news. If he is canny, sticks with it and does the right route each year he will become highly regarded as a top climber. Climber B is likely to have the full respect of his peers but is unlikely to become famous unless he changes his approach. Somewhere down the line they get tied together on an international meet, and onlookers are amazed when climber A struggles to even second climber B.
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I agree with that, I suspect gav does too. It was just the way you phrased it made it sound different.
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Ah okay, that might explain Gav's post which I don't get.
The point is climber A will get in the news. If he is canny, sticks with it and does the right route each year he will become highly regarded as a top climber. Climber B is likely to have the full respect of his peers but is unlikely to become famous unless he changes his approach. Somewhere down the line they get tied together on an international meet, and onlookers are amazed when climber A struggles to even second climber B.
So...
If A, two years down the road, gets FA of the worlds first 9c?
They are of equal value.
The driven, singleminded, climber or the "Climber's climber"; each to be respected for their achievements.
When I said earlier " I surrender, I can't fight fog"; it was because I realised almost everyone who posted had a different definition of "Harder", of "good", or even "grade".
I was frankly, narrowly, thinking of the technical grade at the crux(s), I hadn't (stupidly) considered linking of multiple "easier" moves into one "harder" overall route. I guess I've just been bouldering for too long.
I can't help that feeling that that is not so much climbing "harder" as just doing more of it. But that's a personal feeling and not an objective measure.
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everyone who posted had a different definition of "Harder", of "good", or even "grade"
Exactly.
I can't help that feeling that that is not so much climbing "harder" as just doing more of it
The classic English view. For most of the rest of the world, they view short routes as not so much climbing harder as doing less.
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Two aspects to this; firstly climbing is a broad sport with no clear lines between disciplines. Most posting above I'd guess to consider sport climbing to be the blue riband event. But what distance? Gav probably believes short power routes are the ultimate, Alex probably longer routes. But this is a bouldering forum, so we should probably consider all sport irrelevant stamina plods. If we were in the US long granite routes might be seen as the ultimate, in Scotland you're irrelevant unless you do some mixed. E.g. I'm sure Hazel could tell us if freeing the Pre-Muir was harder than Spanish 8c. Is that the answer - or should we be more objective and consider how many people have done each, or wait for a consensus to arise as with grades?
Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together. He didn't do any other climbing other than training, and performs badly when onsighting or in the one competition he entered, despite being the only 8c+ climber in it. On rest days he rests, no matter what the weather.
Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?
The best is the one having the most fun.
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Why is no-one listening to Guy? He was right - he solved it all.
"It's really great if you do hard outdoor climbing. But you cannot say you're the best. The only way you can say you're the best is, if you compete with the best, and show the best - I'm the best."
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Ah, but if the best don't compete then the best in the competition has not competed with the best and thus they can say they are the best amongst the maybe not so best who partook in a competition that claims to show the best who may not in fact be the best because the best are doing hard outdoor bouldering.
...or something :blink:
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Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together. He didn't do any other climbing other than training, and performs badly when onsighting or in the one competition he entered, despite being the only 8c+ climber in it. On rest days he rests, no matter what the weather.
Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?
[/quote]
Only just got round to replying to this as been out of UK.
Easy answer to that one JB climber A is the better climber. Anyone climbing 9a would be able to do 8A on grit or onsight E7 with a small amount of application if they wanted to do so (not sure about the mixed stuff but it really is a different activity in my mind, you might as well say got a single figure handicap in golf). However Climber B is miles away from doing 9a.
Your version of who is the best climber and mine will never align as we err towards different things being important. I was talking about what is news and in the above scenario i still think that what climber A has done is news, what climber B has done isnt. As a guess i would suggest that you could find someone who has done the latter in the UK this year but not bothered writing it up (dave Mc), but none of the former.
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My list of who I consider the best climbers in the UK would have significant differences from a list of the most accomplished - i.e. the best on paper. History will favour the latter.
Go on then lets see the list.
As an aside I spoke to Jim about this thread, he's a bit bemused by it all. None the less pleased for breaking into a new grade, and doing a classic route. The crime of judging this as relevant news was of course committed by some other young internet amateur.
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Your version of who is the best climber and mine will never align as we err towards different things being important
For me, if they were to climb together, it's the one who would burn the other one off most of the time. Even if s/he has a weaker CV.
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I'm not so sure the lists would differ so much or involve a 'weaker CV' since a lot of those who've trained enough to climb hard sport in the UK are also renowned all rounders: Caff, Bransby, Mcloed, Pasquill, O P-Rob, Buys etc
(Obviously loads from Abroad too, not least the worlds best climber, but I'm not very good at remembering names for the purposes of a list etc.)
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Two aspects to this; firstly climbing is a broad sport with no clear lines between disciplines. Most posting above I'd guess to consider sport climbing to be the blue riband event. But what distance? Gav probably believes short power routes are the ultimate, Alex probably longer routes. But this is a bouldering forum, so we should probably consider all sport irrelevant stamina plods. If we were in the US long granite routes might be seen as the ultimate, in Scotland you're irrelevant unless you do some mixed. E.g. I'm sure Hazel could tell us if freeing the Pre-Muir was harder than Spanish 8c. Is that the answer - or should we be more objective and consider how many people have done each, or wait for a consensus to arise as with grades?
Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together. He didn't do any other climbing other than training, and performs badly when onsighting or in the one competition he entered, despite being the only 8c+ climber in it. On rest days he rests, no matter what the weather.
Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?
Jerry.
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Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an Olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together. He didn't do any other climbing other than training, and performs badly when onsighting or in the one competition he entered, despite being the only 8c+ climber in it. On rest days he rests, no matter what the weather.
Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?
Only just got round to replying to this as been out of UK.
Easy answer to that one JB climber A is the better climber. Anyone climbing 9a would be able to do 8A on grit or onsight E7 with a small amount of application if they wanted to do so (not sure about the mixed stuff but it really is a different activity in my mind, you might as well say got a single figure handicap in golf). However Climber B is miles away from doing 9a.
Your version of who is the best climber and mine will never align as we err towards different things being important. I was talking about what is news and in the above scenario i still think that what climber A has done is news, what climber B has done isnt. As a guess i would suggest that you could find someone who has done the latter in the UK this year but not bothered writing it up (dave Mc), but none of the former.
[/quote]
If you think that climber A is the best then I despair, and I would suggest you don't really understand climbing.
Climbing is not track athletics where 'the best' is measured in fractions of a second and also using the same analogy you're talking shite, news of young athletes running >10 second 100m & etc make the news on a regular basis.
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Only just got round to replying to this as been out of UK.
Easy answer to that one JB climber A is the better climber. Anyone climbing 9a would be able to do 8A on grit or onsight E7 with a small amount of application if they wanted to do so (not sure about the mixed stuff but it really is a different activity in my mind, you might as well say got a single figure handicap in golf). However Climber B is miles away from doing 9a.
Your version of who is the best climber and mine will never align as we err towards different things being important. I was talking about what is news and in the above scenario i still think that what climber A has done is news, what climber B has done isnt. As a guess i would suggest that you could find someone who has done the latter in the UK this year but not bothered writing it up (dave Mc), but none of the former.
I doubt climber B really is miles away from 9a, just a couple of years training. Climber B could easily have been Jordan a few years ago, apart from the mixed bit. There's also a pretty good chance that climber A could become all round proficient if he ditched the training and went climbing for a couple of years. In fact I'd say that they're probably pretty closely matched in terms of raw aptitude.
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Two aspects to this; firstly climbing is a broad sport with no clear lines between disciplines. ...
Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together.....
Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?
Jerry.
^+1
Witty. Those days of climber A also being climber B are probably gone.
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Two aspects to this; firstly climbing is a broad sport with no clear lines between disciplines. ...
Secondly, lets consider two climbers. Climber A plans his climbing like an olympic athlete. Each year he tries to do a sport route harder than the last. He had one 9a sport project last year and succeeded on it when his training peaked and it all came together.....
Climber B likes to do everything. In Feb he did 8A on grit, in March he onsighted X, 9 in Scotland, in summer he onsighted trad E7 and redpointed his first 8c in three days. Who is the best?
Jerry.
^+1
Witty. Those days of climber A also being climber B are probably gone.
Climber B has probably got bigger balls if that counts.
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As sloper says I obviously know nothing as I disagree with everyone and would bet a lot of money that climber A who has the fitness, determination and motivation to red point 9A would be able to accomplish the achievements of Climber B quicker than B would equal A.
The difference is vast.
And you all appear to assume that climber A is just a trained chimp when there skill level has to be pretty high to achieve 9A. If it was just about training loads of people would be doing them.
If you read about caff doing Big Bang he seams to suggest he had to put more work into it than anything else he had done.
You all seem to be falling for exactly what my whole point is about British climbing. We have convinced our selves that climbing E7 onsight or head pointing an E9 is equivilent of sports climbing in the 9s and it just isn't. And until we change that mindset we will continue to stay a little island.
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climbing 9a is so 2007, good god man you're 7 years off the pace, making reference to 9a just shows why Biritish climbers are shit and why we'll never produce a world class climbing, reporting news of people doing 9a is just puffing their egos and damaging their developments. Anything less than a 9b redpoint should only be reported to close relatives and one's driver.
Anyway, I'll be in the Black Bull Friday /S aturday if you fancy a pint.
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Adam Gemili is really good though.
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Easy answer to that one JB climber A is the better climber. Anyone climbing 9a would be able to do 8A on grit or onsight E7 with a small amount of application if they wanted to do so (not sure about the mixed stuff but it really is a different activity in my mind, you might as well say got a single figure handicap in golf). However Climber B is miles away from doing 9a.
Srsly? First 8c in 3 days without any specific focus on that and instead spending the rest of the year ledge shuffling and snow plodding? Sure they'd have to put more work in to get 9a just as Caff says....and sure they could do it. As Ru said they probably have very comparable levels of potential and ability, but climber B is the one who has proved it.
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This thread has thoroughly convinced me of the error of my ways. No longer will I congratulate a fellow mid-grade Malham-ite / Kilnsenian when they tick off a route, lest, by showing approval of anything less than a 9a+ ascent, I'm damaging the aspirations of any passing yoof.
It might seem rude, but I'm sure it's for the best - why risk stunting the ambition of future generations? Politeness be damned! Britains future climbing might is at stake!
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:worms: so moose it's your fault?
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It's quite simply been said that it's not worth a thread in its own right, nothing disparaging at all has been mentioned.
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Everyone arguing about JB's example is missing the only point I tried to make which is that saying 'climber x could do y if they tried' is meaningless. Doing it is what counts.
We'll never all agree on how to weight different achievements, there's no point trying.
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It's quite simply been said that it's not worth a thread in its own right, nothing disparaging at all has been mentioned.
Said Dense in the 108th post of the "not worth a thread in it's own right" thread...
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Damn! There were two more before I finished typing that!
112...
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So, what's significant for UK climbers then? What level warrants a special mention on here/ukc or in the comics? And what level do people expect climbers to be at who seek sponsorship/recognition for being excellent? People must have some idea of what level of performance they rate as well above 'club runner' status.
Specialist:
F8c+ (women 8b+) 8b+ o/s
E10 (women E9) E8 o/s
Font 8B+ (women font 8B) fuck knows
Mixed X (women IX) X o/s
All-rounder: drop 1 grade, 2 at most.
Under 16? drop 1 or 2.
:whip:
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climbing 9a is so 2007, good god man you're 7 years off the pace, making reference to 9a just shows why Biritish climbers are shit and why we'll never produce a world class climbing, reporting news of people doing 9a is just puffing their egos and damaging their developments. Anything less than a 9b redpoint should only be reported to close relatives and one's driver.
Anyway, I'll be in the Black Bull Friday /S aturday if you fancy a pint.
Finally someone is getting the message. 9a is so last year we had half a dozen in the uk 10 years ago. font 8A on grit nearly 30 years ago, E7 35 years ago. So yes anything less than 9b isn't really that big a deal.
Well done sloper I thought you would be the last one to understand.
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This thread has thoroughly convinced me of the error of my ways. No longer will I congratulate a fellow mid-grade Malham-ite / Kilnsenian when they tick off a route, lest, by showing approval of anything less than a 9a+ ascent, I'm damaging the aspirations of any passing yoof.
It might seem rude, but I'm sure it's for the best - why risk stunting the ambition of future generations? Politeness be damned! Britains future climbing might is at stake!
FFS Climbing your first e1 , 5a, grade 2 gully should be praised but it's not news. You just have not got the gist of the whole conversation.
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You just have not got the gist of the whole conversation.
Or, I understood the gist of the conversation, but had been rendered facetious by a delivery from Master of Malt ("quality control testing" - a reluctant duty).
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[quote author=Sloper link=topic
Climbing is not track athletics where 'the best' is measured in fractions of a second and also using the same analogy you're talking shite, news of young athletes running >10 second 100m & etc make the news on a regular basis.
[/quote]
Bollocks. You hardly hear of any sprinters in the uk unless they run less than 10 secs. My cousin got a silver medal in this years commonwealth games 100 m relay I bet you have no fucking idea who he is.
And the reason you only really hear about our sprinters once they break 10 secs or get close is because running under 10 secs is the holy grail. Not the best but a big deal, bit like climbing 9a is in sports climbing.
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This thread has thoroughly convinced me of the error of my ways. No longer will I congratulate a fellow mid-grade Malham-ite / Kilnsenian when they tick off a route, lest, by showing approval of anything less than a 9a+ ascent, I'm damaging the aspirations of any passing yoof.
It might seem rude, but I'm sure it's for the best - why risk stunting the ambition of future generations? Politeness be damned! Britains future climbing might is at stake!
It's quite simply been said that it's not worth a thread in its own right, nothing disparaging at all has been mentioned.
Said Dense in the 108th post of the "not worth a thread in it's own right" thread...
Matt my post was in reply to the 107th post above. The thread had actually turned quite interesting when moose brought up the offhand funny about people getting no praise at all because the achieved grade was too low, when the discussion had long turned away from this. I say turned away no one had said they should get no praise at any point. We had moved on.
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Funny that I was listening to the radio earlier this year about the young British athlete who had yet to break 10 seconds, we hear plenty about young British tennis players who are ranked outside of the top 200, have yu noticed the qualifier? It's their youth that mark them and their achievements out.
All but a very few will very be the best, should we only recognise Moffatt and Nadin in the pantheon of British climbing, after all did Dawes, Dunne, WHillians, Moon, Fawcett etc ever win a world championships? No, bloody punters, now if only they hadn't suffered in the limielight they might have made something of their climbing careers.
Most of us can only aspire to the odd moment in the sun, you seem to want people to suffer in the cellar like that other failure Malcolm Smith (no world champ = looser (sic))
What passing plaudits for those that fall like punters, only the passing anger of a failed climber and the stuttering of keyboards can snuff out their aspirations.
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So, what's significant for UK climbers then?
Specialist:
F8c+ (women 8b+) 8b+ o/s
Irrespective of how high you want to set your bar, that would need tweaking to either 8c+rp/8bos or 9a/8b+, as there are 20-30 brits who've climbed 8c+ but only 3 for 8b+ os (? - McClure, Bolger, Pearson plus Hamer on flash). In fact, with the tweak the RPing is still overrepresented. I wonder if that would be a global trend too or not? I saw an interesting interview with andrada recently where he was saying he finds it weird that you get people who RP 8c and harder but only onsight up to about 7c!
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Sport climbing is being used as an example since it's the easiest thing to quantify, well it's not at all but we don't want to get involved with the nuances of placing gear and headspace etc.
Sloper the names you have mentioned are better known than any others, in their own arena, why is this? Quite simply because they were the best, or among the best. What are you comparing? I don't understand. Say moon did 8c 25 years ago and it was in the mags, big news obviously. You wouldn't then have the mags running a full spread on a.n.other doing a 7c, it would be mentioned in passing certainly but it's not by any stretch of the imagination big news. Nor is it out of order for someone to suggest it's not. It's also nothing to do with the person suggesting it's not news that their climbing standard is found to be lacking by others which happens so often. For instance I don't do routes, in general I'm pretty shit for the effort I put in, does this mean I don't know if a routes newsworthy and I'm not qualified to comment on it? No it doesn't.
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Thats because a couple of our young lads are getting very close to breaking the magical barrier and running under 10 secs is world class. World standards for under 16s are in the low 10s. I think less than 100 people have ever done it and only 5 brits, so its probably more akin to 9a+ or even harder. Getting close is like doing 9a and therefore newsworthy.
To compare this scenario to youths nearly breaking 10 secs shows your ignorance to both climbing and sprinting. Doing 8b isnt even average club level athletics 8c just about gets you in the county team 9a and the media might just start noticing you.
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So, what's significant for UK climbers then?
Specialist:
F8c+ (women 8b+) 8b+ o/s
Irrespective of how high you want to set your bar, that would need tweaking to either 8c+rp/8bos or 9a/8b+, as there are 20-30 brits who've climbed 8c+ but only 3 for 8b+ os (? - McClure, Bolger, Pearson plus Hamer on flash). In fact, with the tweak the RPing is still overrepresented. I wonder if that would be a global trend too or not? I saw an interesting interview with andrada recently where he was saying he finds it weird that you get people who RP 8c and harder but only onsight up to about 7c!
I think there has always been around a 1 1/2 -2 grade gap between onsight and redpoint which is true for the ones mentioned above (other than ed who we all know could do 9a if he tired one properly). If you dont have that gap i guess its because you dont spend time trying both aspects of the sport.
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Thats because a couple of our young lads are getting very close to breaking the magical barrier and running under 10 secs is world class. World standards for under 16s are in the low 10s. I think less than 100 people have ever done it and only 5 brits, so its probably more akin to 9a+ or even harder. Getting close is like doing 9a and therefore newsworthy.
To compare this scenario to youths nearly breaking 10 secs shows your ignorance to both climbing and sprinting. Doing 8b isnt even average club level athletics 8c just about gets you in the county team 9a and the media might just start noticing you.
Aren't you here talking about mainstream media noticing (in which case 9c wouldn't get you more than a 10sec spot on "The One Show")?
This wasn't a News at Ten article, it's a forum.
Poor lad that made the post will probably never stick his head over the parapet again...
I hope Jim has gained enough attention from all this to attract some support. That young sprinter that Sloper mentioned is probably getting way more.
So, raising the profile of local achievement, that might not rank highly on the world stage and may have a detrimental head swell effect on the achiever; might also garner them some support/sponsorship.
This in turn, will upset "Climber group x" because that's just commercialising the sport...
Funny thing is, UKB usually achieves far more consensus than the other channel; yet in this thread the differences in almost everyone's definition of almost every aspect of the sport is laid bare.
And if we don't agree on what our own sport is, the mainstream media will never get it.
I've got a 16 year old training here, who consistently Boulders at 7C, outside, in a session. At the rate he has improved over the year, I see no reason not to pick up his first 8A outdoors by spring.
But we give him a ton of shit, because more than 8 moves in a row and he needs three weeks to recover...
Horses for courses.
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And if we don't agree on what our own sport is, the mainstream media will never get it.
A feature not a bug, surely?
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And if we don't agree on what our own sport is, the mainstream media will never get it.
A feature not a bug, surely?
Oh yes! I love it, that was written with a smile.
May it never change.
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A lot of posts about a minor admin failure. OP should have been merged with significant repeats thread (the original point of which was to flag up noteworthy ascent which might not merit a thread of their own). Bit late now really I guess.
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So, raising the profile of local achievement, that might not rank highly on the world stage and may have a detrimental head swell effect on the achiever; might also garner them some support/sponsorship.
This in turn, will upset "Climber group x" because that's just commercialising the sport...
That's not what it's about at all - it's about crediting notable levels of performance and understanding where things sit in context. And it also isn't - as some people seem unable to grasp - about being negative or uncomplimentary.
I actually think a more negative mindset is to give out (and expect) easy platitudes and hype for doing 'relatively' unremarkable things. And a more positive mindset is to try to raise expectation levels by expecting high standards of achievement.
'Climber group x', as you put it, can just see that climbing an 8a+/b, at any age over 13 and below 60, isn't athletically noteworthy these days. All personal achievements warrant celebration and the praise of your friends, this doesn't warrant any more than that; and I don't think JP is seeking it, it's just his name attached to an interesting thread.
Talk of 'garnering sponsorship and support' - for achieving relatively unremarkable levels of climbing performance is exactly the point gme is making about diluted expectations 'potentially' leading to holding down achievement levels.
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That's not what it's about at all - it's about crediting notable levels of performance and understanding where things sit in context.
Maybe we should start with where this site sits in context then. It's a UK based forum frequented (mostly) by UK climbers so I'd have thought anything decent in a UK context is worthy of a thread, it's not as if this site is inundated with news threads. If ascents have their own thread I think people are more likely to discuss them as the Significant Repeats thread is almost too iconic to be allow much discussion about individual ascents reported on it. As can be seen if an ascent has its own thread then there's room for the discussion to breathe. Furthermore, we all like to think of ourselves as pretty knowledgable about climbing so surely on this, of all sites, we're able to put our own filter on what is being recorded.
As for the argument that early (misplaced?) plaudits leads to youngsters slackening off this can be argued both ways. Did Ondra suffer daily beatings and told he wasn't good enough or was he praised for his talent from an early age? Did the Czech Republic have a particularly high reporting bar for ascents by youngsters when he was growing up? If the external factors were so important in his development then why has the same system not turned out a load more 'Ondras'. It's down to the individual how they react and perform following raise and criticism.
Personally, I like reading about climbers doing routes so if this site becomes one where only world class ascents are recorded then it's of less interest to me (unless I get offered job as news editor in which case it's easy street!). I know there's the sig reps thread but it sounds like a general raising of the bar across the site is being considered.
Sorry for the ramble, if I had a proper keyboard it'd be twice as long
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So, raising the profile of local achievement, that might not rank highly on the world stage and may have a detrimental head swell effect on the achiever; might also garner them some support/sponsorship.
This in turn, will upset "Climber group x" because that's just commercialising the sport...
That's not what it's about at all - it's about crediting notable levels of performance and understanding where things sit in context. And it also isn't - as some people seem unable to grasp - about being negative or uncomplimentary.
I actually think a more negative mindset is to give out (and expect) easy platitudes and hype for doing 'relatively' unremarkable things. And a more positive mindset is to try to raise expectation levels by expecting high standards of achievement.
'Climber group x', as you put it, can just see that climbing an 8a+/b, at any age over 13 and below 60, isn't athletically noteworthy these days. All personal achievements warrant celebration and the praise of your friends, this doesn't warrant any more than that; and I don't think JP is seeking it, it's just his name attached to an interesting thread.
Talk of 'garnering sponsorship and support' - for achieving relatively unremarkable levels of climbing performance is exactly the point gme is making about diluted expectations 'potentially' leading to holding down achievement levels.
You're missing my wry chuckle, as I type, that indicates my love of this sport and it's general similarity to herding pissed off cats in a thunderstorm.
Although, by support, I meant hopefully some wall owner/manager gives him free training. Maybe a coach is working with him. Someone is helping out with equipment etc.
"Climbing group x" is just an illustration of the range and diversity, within the community, not a dig at anyone who commented here.
My point is.
That there is merit to both the Praise and Don't praise approaches.
That climbing contains at least groups a-z (inc group x) and a myriad of subsets, who's only real connection is ascending rocks.
That "Grade" is a damn subjective term and means different things across the community.
And this has been two days worth of interesting conversation, all because someone posted to the wrong section (point agreed).
Finally, from me anyway, I have a sneaking suspicion each of us is having a slightly different conversation...
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As for the argument that early (misplaced?) plaudits leads to youngsters slackening off this can be argued both ways. Did Ondra suffer daily beatings and told he wasn't good enough or was he praised for his talent from an early age? Did the Czech Republic have a particularly high reporting bar for ascents by youngsters when he was growing up? If the external factors were so important in his development then why has the same system not turned out a load more 'Ondras'. It's down to the individual how they react and perform following raise and criticism.
I imagine Adam Ondra would have felt patronised or amused if anybody had patted him on the head for redpointing 8b at the age of 15
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Shall we start an Insignificant Repeats thread? :lol:
Also, shall we start ignoring personal achievement in the YYFY thread unless it's a post about climbing 9a in less than an hour?
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An hour?! Fuckin punter
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Personal achievements are for the yes yes fucking yes thread
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This really is a load of bollocks.
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If somebody posts in the YYFY thread about doing 9a in an hour then they should be aggressively rounded on by the duty cyberprovost for incorrectly choosing YYFY instead of either Sig Repeats or a dedicated news thread and take an automatic -ve 5 karma hit for poor skills.
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Bollocks, they should be forced to provide unedited video footage or suffer the pit of doom (i.e. listening to me talk about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments) either that or wear pain au chocolates for their next redpoint.
This thread is great.
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Bollocks, they should be forced to provide unedited video footage or suffer the pit of doom (i.e. listening to me talk about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments) either that or wear pain au chocolates for their next redpoint.
This thread is great.
Bloody sure I haven't done 9a in under or over an hour but I will still have to suffer you talking about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments this weekend.... :(
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Bollocks, they should be forced to provide unedited video footage or suffer the pit of doom (i.e. listening to me talk about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments) either that or wear pain au chocolates for their next redpoint.
This thread is great.
Bloody sure I haven't done 9a in under or over an hour but I will still have to suffer you talking about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments this weekend.... :(
Take earplugs and rohypnol with you. Your choice who gets the drug ;)
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Bollocks, they should be forced to provide unedited video footage or suffer the pit of doom (i.e. listening to me talk about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments) either that or wear pain au chocolates for their next redpoint.
This thread is great.
Bloody sure I haven't done 9a in under or over an hour but I will still have to suffer you talking about fiscal policy in a globalised economy and its effect on the sustainability of welfare payments this weekend.... :(
Deal, if you don't play Drum & Bass then I'll STFU about politics and economics.
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Maybe we should start with where this site sits in context then. It's a UK based forum frequented (mostly) by UK climbers so I'd have thought anything decent in a UK context is worthy of a thread, it's not as if this site is inundated with news threads.
Do add your own posts highlighting your personal climbing accomplishments - as satisfying as they no doubt are - to the news section and see what response you get. How about I post an individual thread on the news section when I send my new 8a on the diamond. I expect congratulations from you!
As for the argument that early (misplaced?) plaudits leads to youngsters slackening off this can be argued both ways. Did Ondra suffer daily beatings and told he wasn't good enough or was he praised for his talent from an early age?
As far as I know nobody has mentioned daily beatings so why exaggerate - or are they one of the exercises in Gimmee Kraft? I doubt very much that a 15 year-old Adam Ondra was either seeking nor receiving much praise for redpointing an 8a+/b.
Personally, I like reading about climbers doing routes so if this site becomes one where only world class ascents are recorded then it's of less interest to me (unless I get offered job as news editor in which case it's easy street!). I know there's the sig reps thread but it sounds like a general raising of the bar across the site is being considered.
Personally, I'm not into reading 'news' about lots of climbers doing lots of routes that get done lots of times by lots of people. I wouldn't argue against a general raising of the bar for what all climbing media, online and print, consider 'news'. Call me the Scott Semple of ukb, I think the bar is currently a bit low, and I also think it's too easily blurred by the phenomena of personality - halo effect etc. Nationally (so this site's news) I think the bar should be at a level around 8c+/9a & E9/10.
Regionally (YYFY on here, area reports in mags, if they still exist etc.) it's all good and all of interest - local routes for local people.
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So.
Jim did alright today.
Brit champ.
Could do better next time, mind you...
Sorry, couldn't resist.😜
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Yep
We'll done Jim
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British *junior* champ. Let's not hype the lad unduly. Or he'll never achieve anything.
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Yep junior champ. It's not hype or unduly, it's what he is
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Dense, did you leave your sense of humour in your pants on a hot wash or something
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Lord no why would you ask that? The nets a strange place for jokes innit?