UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => equipment => Topic started by: Anti on August 27, 2020, 08:07:34 am
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Sorry for the boring one. I've always used Beta chalk blocks. I love the stuff. I've used Metolius (wrecks my skin) and various not as good stuff. Now it appears talking to guys in V12 that Beta have been sold out for months, I've picked up an 8b+ chalk block and it might as well be talc it's so fine.
What do people use? I think I like chunky, non fancy chalks with no additives. Anyone used Beta and found an alternative?
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Moon is my first choice, then probably the decathlon or wild country stuff. Moon has the added advantage of being in recyclable card packaging these days unlike the competitors. The beta stuff is not my favourite but I have used it. Metolius also wrecks my skin, evil stuff.
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Oh that's good,I've liked that blocked chalk comes in paper wrapping for that reason too. Would you say it's fine or chunky? I guess using the Friction Labs scale, it feels like this 8b chalk is closer to unicorn dust consistency when broken up. I like lumps of chalk compared to a bag of powder because I feel like breaking up the chunks while chalking up gets me better coverage.
I wonder how much of it is in my mind, chemically it's mostly all the same, maybe I've just gotten used to using the same stuff and now it's like a lucky pair of socks or something. Maybe I should buy different chalk every time and stop looking for excuses for being shit.
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Metolius chalk blocks from Go Outdoors seem okay to me. Superchalk, with some vicious drying agent, that’s a different story. I don’t think MgCO3 differs from manufacturer to manufacturer but adding chemicals causes problems.
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Oh that's good,I've liked that blocked chalk comes in paper wrapping for that reason too. Would you say it's fine or chunky? I guess using the Friction Labs scale, it feels like this 8b chalk is closer to unicorn dust consistency when broken up. I like lumps of chalk compared to a bag of powder because I feel like breaking up the chunks while chalking up gets me better coverage.
I wonder how much of it is in my mind, chemically it's mostly all the same, maybe I've just gotten used to using the same stuff and now it's like a lucky pair of socks or something. Maybe I should buy different chalk every time and stop looking for excuses for being shit.
The Moon one is pretty chunky initially but I tend to find the bottom of the bag is finer. Probably the Gorilla Grip on the Friction Labs scale. I tend to prefer powder to chunks that are hard to break up but it doesn't overly bother me.
Its obviously mostly the same but I'm just paranoid about the drying agents so stick to what I know! Tape, now thats another story...
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Beta Blocks all the way for me - gotta be crunchy and gritty, not silky and slippery. Superchalk drying agent was never strong enough for my skin - they should do an extra strong version.
Depot Manchester had a massive stock of Beta in, I also ordered some from Elite Gymnastics online, they took a while to get stocks in but got there eventually.
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Why do people use the expensive stuff? Gorilla chalk is nearly 3 times more expensive than the Metolius blocks. Water of crystallisation etc I get, but the chemical formula is the same!
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Anecdotally people do say there is a certain je ne sais quoi about the Friction Labs stuff. Quite a few people I know keep some for iffy condition days or redpointing. Marginal gains!
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Slightly OT, but i thought this was an interesting read
https://www.climbing.com/gear/the-hidden-environmental-cost-of-climbing-chalk/
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Putting the Beta chalk blocks in a whizzy coffee grinder works really well. Grind as much as you need for the day and store in an air tight plastic pot. It is very fluffy and sticky.
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Beta Blocks all the way for me - gotta be crunchy and gritty, not silky and slippery. Superchalk drying agent was never strong enough for my skin - they should do an extra strong version.
Depot Manchester had a massive stock of Beta in, I also ordered some from Elite Gymnastics online, they took a while to get stocks in but got there eventually.
Ahh. There's the info I needed! Most places I looked had no stock either, so assumed the worst. I'd almost completely run out when I popped in to the shop, I'll now put in an online order and relax knowing my existential, chalky crisis has been averted, amazing!
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After reading Fiend's rave reviews I did recently get some beta chalk. It's very hard - kind of like having your chalk bag filled with gravel. But once it breaks down it seems OK and fairly, well, chalk-like. I normally use the Metolius Super Chalk stuff and the beta doesn't feel massively different, though I've not used it in shit connies yet.
My plan next time I get some fresh tablets out is to put it in a Metolius plastic chalk bag and crush it up with a rolling pin before heading out.
Friction Labs chalk is incredible in marginal conditions. I don't find it makes a huge difference in great conditions, but if you're trying your absolute hardest or conditions are not 100% then it makes a really noticeable difference. Way too expensive to use all the time, but I don't go out bouldering without having a bag of it on me. It's a good thing to ask for at Christmas and birthdays. One bag will keep you going for ages since it's used so sparingly.
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Why do people use the expensive stuff? Gorilla chalk is nearly 3 times more expensive than the Metolius blocks. Water of crystallisation etc I get, but the chemical formula is the same!
Why do people even use chalk? I'm blessed with fingers that sweat about as much as a prince dancing with teenage girls in Pizza Express.
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Hashtag rant.
I could be totally wrong here. In my experience that fine friction labs stuff is a right ball ache to clean off (not mine, other people's) gritstone. Normal brushing doesn't seem to touch the fine particles which I'm guessing can fit into smaller spaces.
And some folk seem to use it far too liberally. Let's cake it on!
There's perhaps an optical illusion going on but it seems brighter, more conspicuous which might because those fine particles are inhabiting more spaces giving more colour.
I know some folk use normal chalk too much but at least normal brushing cleans it up some.
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Putting the Beta chalk blocks in a whizzy coffee grinder works really well. Grind as much as you need for the day and store in an air tight plastic pot. It is very fluffy and sticky.
My musings on this (DISCLAIMER: likely to be a load’a bollocks)…
Chalk is just calcium carbonate – other ingredients are smoke and mirrors. That is not to say that more expensive chalk is not more effective as there may be a placebo effect similar to pharmaceutical industry where it has been shown that paying more for a more expensive brand of exactly the same drug (e.g. ibuprofen) increases the efficacy.
In terms of grinding the chalk on demand from a block and storing in a rigid air-tight container:
Chalk absorbs moisture from the air (hygroscopic). In solid form (e.g. beta blocks) moisture will primarily be absorbed on the surface and the centre remain dehydrated (hence why it only needs to be wrapped in paper). The finer the chalk the better coverage you get over your hands, however fine powder chalk has a much larger surface area and will quickly absorb moisture from the air, hence why it is generally stored in plastic bag (putting a large amount of fine powder chalk in a boulder bucket could be a bad idea). Once ground, storing in a rigid air-tight container helps prevent rehydration and prevents the structure being broken down (i.e. from being crushed).
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Why do people even use chalk? I'm blessed with fingers that sweat about as much as a prince dancing with teenage girls in Pizza Express.
And because you are thus blessed, you assume everyone else is??
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Putting the Beta chalk blocks in a whizzy coffee grinder works really well. Grind as much as you need for the day and store in an air tight plastic pot. It is very fluffy and sticky.
I personally find the act of crushing the hard bits part of the charm!
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Chalk is just calcium carbonate
On a blackboard. I think climbing chalk is magnesium.
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blackboard chalk is usually calcium sulphate now isn't it?
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At my old University campus we could buy chemically pure (>99.995%) Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO₃) for basically nothing at the supplier for the labs. It was inconvenient that it did not come in blocks but as a very fine powder. I remain unconvinced that there is something better to dry the hands.
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Why do people even use chalk? I'm blessed with fingers that sweat about as much as a prince dancing with teenage girls in Pizza Express.
And because you are thus blessed, you assume everyone else is??
Obvious troll iz obvious.
I think the texture makes a difference. Don't have science to back it up, but that's coming from a completely neutral initial perspective before trying Beta (and some weird old stuff called 8b+ that came in a foil packet and was also very crunchy) - having said that there could well be science behind the effects of grain size.
I do like the way wasbeen starts with chalk is just calcium carbonate (errr magnesium carbonate) and other ingredients are smoke and mirrors (pretty sure metolius's drying agent does actually exist) ;) :P
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I do like the way wasbeen starts with chalk is just calcium carbonate (errr magnesium carbonate) and other ingredients are smoke and mirrors (pretty sure metolius's drying agent does actually exist) ;) :P
Many apologies you are totally right, I meant to say magnesium. I feel a right prick now! :oops:
... although, I am not so sure about the Metoulius drying agent:
From Rock and Run and other sites:
"America's number one selling brand of climbing chalk has a specialised formula with an added drying agent that absorbs up to 15% more moisture than regular gym chalk."
...but from Metoulius's website:
"100% Magnesium Carbonate"
https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/super_chalk.html
... Surely they can't both be right unless the drying agent is magnesium carbonate?
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If it's not real a lot of people have some pretty good placebo reactions that it dries their hands too much. I wonder why they don't mention it....as you say there is some bullshit somewhere.
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If it's not real a lot of people have some pretty good placebo reactions that it dries their hands too much. I wonder why they don't mention it....as you say there is some bullshit somewhere.
Friction labs were making a load of false claims on their website among them claiming that their chalk was especially "pure". Someone used a "Scanning electron Microscope (SEM) with Energy Dispersive X ray Spectroscopy (EDX)" to show that this was all a load of bollocks and that Metoulius chalk was (also) 100% magnesium carbonate. Here is a post about it:
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111741582/frictionlabs-chalk-lots-of-false-statements-in-their-website-i-would-not-trust-t
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Considering they are all the same thing, there is incredible variation not only between different products, but different batches of the same product. I remember a few years ago now there was a particularly bad batch of super chalk which was similar to Feta in consistency.
I really wish I didn’t find Friction Labs substantially better than any other chalk, but I do. Maybe it’s 100% magnesium carbonate, but with some special homeopathic ingredient 😂
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My hands start to sweat when I am watching people climb on film. I wouldn't be very much surprised if there are opposite reactions, for example that the hands sweat less just from the tactile sensation of crushing chalk between the fingertips.
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With regard to the post on mountain project on the purity of Friction Labs chalk it strikes me that using a “Scanning electron Microscope (SEM) with Energy Dispersive X ray Spectroscopy (EDX)" seems a rather curious method to use. The poster then talking about how they could obtain ‘food grade’ magnesium carbonate also does little to inspire confidence in their knowledge or abilities.
I was still working in analytical chemistry (merely as a bench monkey, granted) when Friction Labs first appeared with their claims of higher purity chalk. I recall having a look at methods to verify the claims and
a simple chemical assay would be far better. Sadly the required assay was not the sort I could have performed at the back of the lab without anyone noticing, so I never bothered.
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I really wish I didn’t find Friction Labs substantially better than any other chalk, but I do. Maybe it’s 100% magnesium carbonate, but with some special homeopathic ingredient 😂
I tried some Friction Labs stuff for the first time today. Surprisingly, I climbed neither better nor worse than usual :-\
Bar perhaps less water of crystallisation/fewer random impurities from manufacture I’m not convinced there’s much to it beyond marketing. Still, if Nurofen makes your headache disappear faster than humble ibuprofen, maybe it’s worth paying for.
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The first time I came across Friction Labs chalk was a night session at Caley when we were on Secret Seventh. It was shitty conditions - not actually raining, but you could see tiny condensed droplets of water floating around in the air (not quite mist but getting there). Dave got his special chalk out and we all laughed at him for being so daft as to spend real money on chalk.
Then after failing on the problem quite a bit we noticed that Dave was getting higher up it than anyone, while we weren't making any impression on the terrible left hand finger-sloper. We all started dipping into his chalk bag and suddenly things felt better.
Another notable time was Jet Set in Font when the sun was on it. I got to the top two crimps plenty of times but they always felt a little greasy and slidey. Then used the Friction Labs and the friction improved dramatically.
You're not going to notice a difference if you're not climbing something where friction is a limiting factor, so really it's only beneficial when you're trying your hardest on moves which are individually very hard. It pained me to admit it at first, but it really does work.
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So Will are you going to give things two different grades in your guide. One if you are using friction chalk and one for normal stuff.
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:lol:
Gotta add "belief in placebos" to the long list of essential climbing skillz.
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The strongest muscle is the mind, especially in climbing, and the mind is susceptible to believing things that aren’t true.
I too think that friction labs - the ‘Tesco finest’ of chalk - feels as if it works better than other brands. ‘Think’ and ‘feel’ being subjective and open to all kinds of confirmation bias.
Until someone designs an experiment, whereby a robot hand with real fake sweaty fleshTM smothered in friction labs chalk displays a higher coefficient of friction on rock climbing holds versus a placebo robot hand smothered in other chalk, then I’m unmoved that friction labs is anything other than a well designed marketing hoax that uses clever advertising, alluring packaging and a convincing price point to play on climbers’ Achilles heel in being just as desperate for marginal gains as the next group of fools.
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That's Tesco Finest* , you uncultured oaf. The asterisk indicates a truly high quality product ::)
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I used some Friction Labs Secret Stuff as part of a marginal gains approach (based on Stu L’s advice) at Ansteys last autumn and it worked wonders. I fully subscribe to the redpoint chalk bag model too. Conversely, I bought some awful overcrushed chalk on amazon and it’s useless, other than to mix into better stuff in small doses. If anything this recent wall position re liquid chalk only has focused our normal chalk preference - ocun or metolius for general use, friction labs for projects.
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On the subject of expensive chalks and marginal gains, has anyone tried Black Diamond's Black Gold?
Even more expensive than Friction Labs, they claim the much larger surface area of upsalite makes it much more absorbent than other forms of magnesium carbonate. I think they use ~10% upsalite and the rest is standard magnesite. Or you can buy sachets of upsalite to mix in with your own chalk.
It never had the marketing force that Friction Labs had when it came out and I don't think I know anyone who has tried it. If it was as good as they say it is, I assume word would have got out by now so I guess it isn't as revolutionary for climbing as they claim.
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some reference to SCIENCE
https://www.disruptivematerials.com/sports/
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I though Upsalite was a BS marketing name, like Oakley Unobtanium tm but google reveals the name comes from where it was first made
https://phys.org/news/2013-08-upsalite-scientists-impossible-material-byaccident.html
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Personally I think the most important part of chalk performance is how it's stored. As it's natually water absorbent, it will take in moisture in a damp atmosphere (Iike in a chalk bag, in a rucksack in the corner of the garage, next to your sweaty climbing shoes). I guess you should just have a small quantity of chalk in your bag, and keep it in an airtight ziplock bag, and just top it up a bit at a time from chalk stored in a tupperware container or airtight bag, but I doubt anyone does that.
I've noticed the chalk from the open bag i have next to the bouldering wall in the garage can sometime have a slightly damp feel to it, compared to fresh stuff out the pot.
Some people talk about microwaving it to make it drier, but never tried this myself.
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Friction labs were making a load of false claims on their website among them claiming that their chalk was especially "pure". Someone used a "Scanning electron Microscope (SEM) with Energy Dispersive X ray Spectroscopy (EDX)" to show that this was all a load of bollocks and that Metoulius chalk was (also) 100% magnesium carbonate. Here is a post about it:
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111741582/frictionlabs-chalk-lots-of-false-statements-in-their-website-i-would-not-trust-t
Personally I find the bollocksy, pseudo-science shit that is the friction labs sales pitch objectionable enough to outweigh any potential benefits. When they first launched I remember looking in to the claims on their website, and the only source they had was some postdoc who seemed to have run a chemical analysis for them and then be collared in to writing it up to look like a real paper (which didn't actually support any of their claims).
Fair enough if they want to market homeopathic chalk at 3x the price of normal chalk (10z friction labs vs 600g decathlon bucket), but lets not lie about it.
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I hate it when companies spout bullshit, and so pretty much instantly relegated Friction Labs to this corner when they started pushing their 'special magic chalk' marketing wankery.
However.
I've recently been doing a lot of small edge training on the BM micros. I was using an old chalk bag I had stashed by the fingerboard, and at some point it was empty. Being the lazy bastard that I am, instead of refilling from the big 1kg wild country bag in the shed, I just grabbed Cora's chalk bag out of the box and started using that.
Previously I'd been trying very hard on the 8mm and couldn't touch the 6mm (I was trying optimistically each session). This session I chalked up, stepped underneath the 6mm, crimped desperately and didn't immediately slip off :ohmy:
Think I managed about 3 seconds, and then later on about 7 seconds. Pretty crappy, but there you go. Turns out the chalk in the bag was some friction labs that she'd got from a trade show. Did it make the difference? Probably not.
I'm interested to know what they do it to make it feel so 'nice' on the skin though. Why does it sit in a thin coat so well compared to some other chalks? I wonder if it's milled differently or something.
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I'd guess for the same reason it sits as a thin (hard to clean) coat on rock.
More finer particles in more smaller spaces.
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My suspicion is that it is all in the grind. The solid beta block stuff once whizzed in the coffee grinder is like nothing else I have used - very soft and fluffy, with massive increase in volume (fill power). Compared to the unprocessed block it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.
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My suspicion is that it is all in the grind. The solid beta block stuff once whizzed in the coffee grinder is like nothing else I have used - very soft and fluffy, with massive increase in volume (fill power). Compared to the unprocessed block it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.
I think my girlfriend would go mental if i used the coffee grinder for chalk. Unless you have an old one for this purpose/ a food processor/ smoothie maker or something?
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I do wonder what the naysayers are using it on, and whether they normally struggle with conditions or sweaty fingers. Do they also use anti-hydral which is also reducing the scope for further improvements in friction?
I consider myself a sceptic and was very sceptical at first. But I can physically feel the difference - in certain conditions dependent circumstances. You know when you climb up to some marginal crimps and they feel greasy? You can feel your fingers start to creep on the hold as you try to engage on it? That's where the chalk comes in. It doesn't improve things when conditions are mint, but for marginal conditions on conditions dependent holds, that's where there's an impact. I know that without a controlled study there's no way to disaggregate this from a placebo, but we're unlikely to see a study like that happen soon. The marketing is bullshit but if you don't follow Instagram knobheads (and I try not to) then you don't actually see that much of it.
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it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.
Boom! what sort of cheese do you use?
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My suspicion is that it is all in the grind. The solid beta block stuff once whizzed in the coffee grinder is like nothing else I have used - very soft and fluffy, with massive increase in volume (fill power). Compared to the unprocessed block it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.
I think my girlfriend would go mental if i used the coffee grinder for chalk. Unless you have an old one for this purpose/ a food processor/ smoothie maker or something?
I just use one of the cheap blade grinder/choppers which are about £15 quid. It got relegated for chalk use after we got a burr grinder. It is quiet convenient as the capacity is almost exactly perfect for a day’s climbing. It would only take a quick wipe with a cloth to use it for coffee again.
I did try adding cinnamon to the chalk to make it smell nicer - unsurprisingly it made it smell of cinnamon.
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Speaking of Beta chalk, I was over in V12 t'other day looking to restock, and was told that they no longer make it anymore. This was devastating news to me.
However, there was a suspiciously similar chalk block in their place called '8C+' (take that 8b+). It turns out this pretender is actually identical, and I get the impression is just a rebrand of Beta. It felt basically identical to me: a dense block that threatens to drive a solid shard of chalk into your hand when you break it up.
Does anyone have any solid info on this?
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Speaking of Beta chalk, I was over in V12 t'other day looking to restock, and was told that they no longer make it anymore. This was devastating news to me.
However, there was a suspiciously similar chalk block in their place called '8C+' (take that 8b+). It turns out this pretender is actually identical, and I get the impression is just a rebrand of Beta. It felt basically identical to me: a dense block that threatens to drive a solid shard of chalk into your hand when you break it up.
Does anyone have any solid info on this?
So, this is exactly why I started the thread, from a visit to V12 on Saturday... The 8b+ chalk sucks if you like the Beta, nothing like it, very fine and powdery, almost slippy feeling. However I ordered some from the Gymnasium website posted earlier, so hopefully I don't have to wait too long!
My suspicion is that it is all in the grind. The solid beta block stuff once whizzed in the coffee grinder is like nothing else I have used - very soft and fluffy, with massive increase in volume (fill power). Compared to the unprocessed block it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.
I think my girlfriend would go mental if i used the coffee grinder for chalk. Unless you have an old one for this purpose/ a food processor/ smoothie maker or something?
I just use one of the cheap blade grinder/choppers which are about £15 quid. It got relegated for chalk use after we got a burr grinder. It is quiet convenient as the capacity is almost exactly perfect for a day’s climbing. It would only take a quick wipe with a cloth to use it for coffee again.
I did try adding cinnamon to the chalk to make it smell nicer - unsurprisingly it made it smell of cinnamon.
Potentially not as silly an idea as it sounds. Not the grinding, but the smelly additives. When I used to race bicycles the ritual of putting on embro pre warm up was a main part of the routine, the smell of clove oil and decongestants while sat in a nervy bunch of cyclists waiting to start the race really got me amped up and was part of my mental process. Even now, the smell of embro / clove oil / olbas oil stuff seems like it switched my brain into go mode. I've experimented with just rubbing in onto myself randoml before heading out climbing and it works, but smelly chalk might be a thing... Except ground cloves in my chalk sounds like it might just suffocate me.
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it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.
Boom! what sort of cheese do you use?
Rock-fort
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Speaking of Beta chalk, I was over in V12 t'other day looking to restock, and was told that they no longer make it anymore. This was devastating news to me.
However, there was a suspiciously similar chalk block in their place called '8C+' (take that 8b+). It turns out this pretender is actually identical, and I get the impression is just a rebrand of Beta. It felt basically identical to me: a dense block that threatens to drive a solid shard of chalk into your hand when you break it up.
Does anyone have any solid info on this?
So, this is exactly why I started the thread, from a visit to V12 on Saturday... The 8b+ chalk sucks if you like the Beta, nothing like it. However I ordered some from the Gymnasium website posted earlier, so hopefully I don't have to wait too long!
:lol: well that serves me right for not checking the thread starter! Apologies.
That's interesting, I didn't find that the 8C+ stuff (which is what I presume you meant, unless you downgraded yours) was any different really. You have given me adequate scope to start blaming inferior chalk for my shoddy performance though, many thanks!
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Speaking of Beta chalk, I was over in V12 t'other day looking to restock, and was told that they no longer make it anymore. This was devastating news to me.
However, there was a suspiciously similar chalk block in their place called '8C+' (take that 8b+). It turns out this pretender is actually identical, and I get the impression is just a rebrand of Beta. It felt basically identical to me: a dense block that threatens to drive a solid shard of chalk into your hand when you break it up.
Does anyone have any solid info on this?
So, this is exactly why I started the thread, from a visit to V12 on Saturday... The 8b+ chalk sucks if you like the Beta, nothing like it. However I ordered some from the Gymnasium website posted earlier, so hopefully I don't have to wait too long!
:lol: well that serves me right for not checking the thread starter! Apologies.
That's interesting, I didn't find that the 8C+ stuff (which is what I presume you meant, unless you downgraded yours) was any different really. You have given me adequate scope to start blaming inferior chalk for my shoddy performance though, many thanks!
Oh, I didn't even notice it said 8C+, I assumed it was the brand 8B+ who already make chalk bags and stuff. That's strange. It beaks up into a much finer powder I've found, it's a lot softer and not as "gritty" as the Beta stuff. I've used it for a couple of sessions now and really feel it doesn't last as long, but now am concerned maybe it's just me.
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My suspicion is that it is all in the grind. The solid beta block stuff once whizzed in the coffee grinder is like nothing else I have used - very soft and fluffy, with massive increase in volume (fill power). Compared to the unprocessed block it is almost literally like chalk and cheese.
I think my girlfriend would go mental if i used the coffee grinder for chalk. Unless you have an old one for this purpose/ a food processor/ smoothie maker or something?
I just use one of the cheap blade grinder/choppers which are about £15 quid. It got relegated for chalk use after we got a burr grinder. It is quiet convenient as the capacity is almost exactly perfect for a day’s climbing. It would only take a quick wipe with a cloth to use it for coffee again.
A blade grinder has no business being used for coffee so it could be worth experimenting if you've got one sat around unused.
I wouldn't go near a burr grinder with chalk though, I can't see coffee oils helping your climbing or chalk helping your coffee.
Potentially not as silly an idea as it sounds. Not the grinding, but the smelly additives. When I used to race bicycles the ritual of putting on embro pre warm up was a main part of the routine, the smell of clove oil and decongestants while sat in a nervy bunch of cyclists waiting to start the race really got me amped up and was part of my mental process. Even now, the smell of embro / clove oil / olbas oil stuff seems like it switched my brain into go mode. I've experimented with just rubbing in onto myself randoml before heading out climbing and it works, but smelly chalk might be a thing... Except ground cloves in my chalk sounds like it might just suffocate me.
I wonder if the numbing properties of cloves could be useful on particularly sharp rock?
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I just use one of the cheap blade grinder/choppers which are about £15 quid. It got relegated for chalk use after we got a burr grinder. It is quiet convenient as the capacity is almost exactly perfect for a day’s climbing. It would only take a quick wipe with a cloth to use it for coffee again.
If you listen to the gods of self-facilitation I think you'll find that grinder excessively burns the chalk and is detrimental to the taste. Or something.
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I have dry skin, don’t use lots of chalk, have never been much of a small/ marginal hold specialist (certainly not in the last couple of years) and consequently can’t really tell the difference between most brands of chalk but I do have a few things to add-
Metolius make two different types of chalk, Metolius Super Chalk and Metolius Climbing Chalk. The latter comes in blocks and says “100% Magnesium Carbonate” on the actual packaging. Not sure why it currently says the same for Super Chalk on their website but, as other websites say, it absolutely has some sort of added ingredient because it fucks up my skin almost immediately. Their block stuff is fine.
I got a Wild Country chalkbag a few months ago and it came in a plastic dry bag that’s intended to keep your powder dry. 8)
Whether Friction Labs’ product is special or not, their marketing is pretty distasteful, especially the pyramid-selling ambassador type shit. Pretty obvious that they’ve looked at the climbing world as a growing market that no one was being absolute cunts in exploiting yet and found chalk to be the best thing to do that with. You can picture their presentation to potential investors showing how much people shell out for Evian etc. despite having perfectly good tap water.
Shouldn’t be that tough to do a blind test on chalk types surely? Get some people at the Secret Garden on a humid August day using a selection of different chalk types, some of which they think is magic expensive chalk and some they think is brand X, some of them are being told the truth, some aren’t, some are being given the same stuff each time etc. I’d love to read the results of that.
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Pound for pound (sterling), which would be a better investment? 4 big bags of Gorilla Grip or Beastmaker?
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Depends if you have a Beastmaker already or not. :)
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Get some people at the Secret Garden on a humid August day using a selection of different chalk types
Double that up with a midge repellent test.
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Not the grinding, but the smelly additives. When I used to race bicycles the ritual of putting on embro pre warm up was a main part of the routine, the smell of clove oil and decongestants while sat in a nervy bunch of cyclists waiting to start the race really got me amped up and was part of my mental process. Even now, the smell of embro / clove oil / olbas oil stuff seems like it switched my brain into go mode. I've experimented with just rubbing in onto myself randomly before heading out climbing and it works, but smelly chalk might be a thing...
Ha! Evokes some strong memories of my short dabble with 10m TT as a youth
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I have a mate that used to get his chalk shipped from Germany in 10kg batches, he used to call it "Champagne Chalk" - no idea of it's real name... I hated that stuff, it was the finest (most fine) chalk I have ever touched and you couldn't tell whether you'd hit chalk if you blindly put your hand in a bag. I thought it felt like talcum powder or flour (and suspected it wasn't actually chalk). He claimed on the box it actually said "doesn't contain talcum powder" :shrug:
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Depends if you have a Beastmaker already or not. :)
I have heard they are great for crushing chalk to a fine powder. Friction Labs use the 2000 for Unicorn Puff and the 1000 for Gorilla Gunk. Apparently.
Unfortunately my campus rung isn't very good for this, so I'll have to train instead.
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I have a mate that used to get his chalk shipped from Germany in 10kg batches, he used to call it "Champagne Chalk" - no idea of it's real name... I hated that stuff, it was the finest (most fine) chalk I have ever touched and you couldn't tell whether you'd hit chalk if you blindly put your hand in a bag. I thought it felt like talcum powder or flour (and suspected it wasn't actually chalk). He claimed on the box it actually said "doesn't contain talcum powder" :shrug:
I asked him - this is the stuff:
https://www.dein-klettershop.de/klettern/magnesia-chalk-chalkbags/magnesia-chalk/
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It's frustrating that there's no literature.
Every year there's a slew of horse shit questionnaires to fill in from Masters students about your motivation for coimbing or whether you like hexes or whatever. Meanwhile mass spectrometers lie idle.
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It's frustrating that there's no literature.
Every year there's a slew of horse shit questionnaires to fill in from Masters students about your motivation for coimbing or whether you like hexes or whatever. Meanwhile mass spectrometers lie idle.
Just found this "paper". I can't find it on Google Scholar so very much doubt it is peer reviewed but hey ho:
https://mattfordengineering.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/lab06.pdf
Which gives us this tantalising extract:
"Other than magnesium carbonate, trace amounts of silicon were uncovered in the Super Chalk sample. This may be a clue to the supposed drying agent. Silica gel (SiO2) is commonly used as a commercial desiccant for preservation and protection of moisture sensitive products."
However, at less than 1% it is difficult to imagine that the silica gel has a significant effect.
Probably of more significance is that "Bison Chalk" was 20% calcium carbonate despite claiming to be 100% magnesium carbonate (the equivalent of the horse meat in the Ikea meat balls). The Bison Chalk was also found to have 60% more trapped water than the Metoulius chalk.
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Mmmmmmm horse balls.
FWIW the 8b+ chalk I was referring to was some proper dope underground old skool shit I got from South Africa back in 2005, came in little foil sachets and was crunchy AF. Dunno if it's the same as the new stuff and I've probably got the name wrong but I'm not some grade-obsessed dick anyway. Just chalk-obsessed.
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It was a lot easier when you nipped into Boots for a box or two of Light Magnesium powder.
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Anyway all this talk of chalk is just looking at the treatment whilst ignoring the cure.
According to the interbox, excessive activity of the sweat glands can be caused by:
diabetes
menopause/hot flashes
low blood sugar
overactive thyroid
heart attack
nervous system problems
infections
And can be cured by:
Wiping a solution paste of baking soda on your hands as an effective antiperspirant.
Drinking cider vinegar to balance ph levels.
Eating sage leaves.
Not living in Scotland.
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Are sage leaves best fresh or dried? What sort of size are people cutting them up to, or are people just using the tablets these days?
TIA
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I can't see coffee oils helping your climbing
I was going to say that it's amazing that no-one's tried selling caffeinated chalk as a gimmick yet.
But then I Googled and it has in fact been tried (Endurochalk -- but their website has bitten the dust, so evidently the gimmick didn't work as well as I cynically thought it might).
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Alpecin say the caffeine in their shampoo stimulates hair follicles, I wonder if caffeine either a) stimulates finger hair... so, like a fly? That's got to be beneficial. Or b) stimulates the sweat glands. Then there's c) fuck all.
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Shouldn’t be that tough to do a blind test on chalk types surely? Get some people at the Secret Garden on a humid August day using a selection of different chalk types, some of which they think is magic expensive chalk and some they think is brand X, some of them are being told the truth, some aren’t, some are being given the same stuff each time etc. I’d love to read the results of that.
https://www.99boulders.com/best-climbing-chalk
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Interesting but strange test. How can it be a negative that the chalk dries out the skin? That is exactly the point of applying chalk to the hands in sports!
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That study is a nice try Fultonious. Good link.
I’d like to see something like that - with say 20-50 climbers involved. But over a month or so - with swapping the labels on the bags every month or so (to get rid of - oh I like bag A syndrome etc..). It was also only on plastic - and if diff chalk made any real difference I’d expect them to be difftetebt in different humidities and different rock types.
Personally - I’ve never ever felt one type of chalk makes any difference. Even Dolly’s secret bag of Russian chalk $$$ he had last year...
But - like homeopathy and acupuncture (according to the science..) that actually do nothing - if it makes you think you’re climbing harder - or that bag of secret chalk boosts your confidence so you send your project etc.. then I guess it’s working! And of course those folk at friction labs are chuckling away at their 500% markup 😛
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In some ways, I am wary about being too hard on Friction Labs even if they are selling a placebo.
They seem to re-invest a significant proportion in advertising and sponsoring to maintain the myth (and as a byproduct support the climbing industry). If you believe that it works it will probably work. Even if you don't believe it will work it will probably still work (a placebo can still work even if you know they are a placebo).
By increasing the value of chalk. Then the ritual surround it also increases in value. The brushing and studying of the holds, the application of the chalk, the contemplation of the interaction of the hand with the hold etc.
In summary... Some people prefer to pay more.
I guess the issue is whether by believing in the power of Friction Labs, you lose sight of what really makes a difference analogous to people taking homeopathy treatments in place of proven conventional medicine.
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In some ways, I am wary about being too hard on Friction Labs even if they are selling a placebo.
If you believe that it works it will probably work. Even if you don't believe it will work it will probably still work (a placebo can still work even if you know they are a placebo).
A placebo is ingested. How is an external condition - the coefficient of friction- altered purely by the power of the mind?
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It goes on so nice; it’s like butter
:lol:
The company takes traditional magnesium carbonate and mixes it with the essential oils of clove, eucalyptus, cinnamon, rosemary, and lemon, along with a dash of epsom salts. The result is a chalk that Primo says is both antibacterial and conditioning, all while providing friction.
:lol:
Interesting that the Bison chalk that’s apparently got loads of other stuff in it isn’t the worst in that test.
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In some ways, I am wary about being too hard on Friction Labs even if they are selling a placebo.
If you believe that it works it will probably work. Even if you don't believe it will work it will probably still work (a placebo can still work even if you know they are a placebo).
A placebo is ingested. How is an external condition - the coefficient of friction- altered purely by the power of the mind?
I think it would be more that it affects your state of mind e.g.:
https://youtu.be/R-7a78cNIoM?t=176
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I doubt my state of mind alters the friction between skin and rock, no matter how much I may like it to.
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Some people talk about microwaving it to make it drier, but never tried this myself.
I’m not a scientist but my experiments with leftover pizza would suggest that microwaving doesn’t remove moisture at all.
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In some ways, I am wary about being too hard on Friction Labs even if they are selling a placebo.
If you believe that it works it will probably work. Even if you don't believe it will work it will probably still work (a placebo can still work even if you know they are a placebo).
A placebo is ingested. How is an external condition - the coefficient of friction- altered purely by the power of the mind?
Well no, a placebo is defined as anything which is prescribed for a psychological benefit, but with no physiological effect. It doesn't have to be something that's ingested.
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Some people talk about microwaving it to make it drier, but never tried this myself.
I’m not a scientist but my experiments with leftover pizza would suggest that microwaving doesn’t remove moisture at all.
Try taking the pizza out of the chalk before microwaving it? 😀
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Some people talk about microwaving it to make it drier, but never tried this myself.
I’m not a scientist but my experiments with leftover pizza would suggest that microwaving doesn’t remove moisture at all.
Try taking the pizza out of the chalk before microwaving it? 😀
:lol:
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Interesting but strange test. How can it be a negative that the chalk dries out the skin? That is exactly the point of applying chalk to the hands in sports!
It also doesn't say how long each test went on for, to see long term damage from the "drying agents"
“It goes on so nice; it’s like butter,”
Surely chalk like butter can't be a good thing??
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So, I also found Beta chalk blocks in stock with NeedleSports. I placed an order and received today. Opened the parcel to find lots of... 8C+ chalk blocks... I wonder what's happening there then, suspiciously two places have replaced Beta with 8C+ now. Unless staff at Needle Sports read this thread and want to troll me :-(
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I'm going to disrupt the market by buying the chalk and rebranding it as 9a, along with some psuedowaffle and a chalk bag with silver threads woven into that are boosted by UV energy every time you dip your hand into it and create instant recovery.
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I'm going to disrupt the market by buying the chalk and rebranding it as 9a, along with some psuedowaffle and a chalk bag with silver threads woven into that are boosted by UV energy every time you dip your hand into it and create instant recovery.
Just tell me Aidan Roberts has farted on it or something. That'll sell it.
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Get some CBD oil in there too.
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So, I also found Beta chalk blocks in stock with NeedleSports. I placed an order and received today. Opened the parcel to find lots of... 8C+ chalk blocks... I wonder what's happening there then, suspiciously two places have replaced Beta with 8C+ now. Unless staff at Needle Sports read this thread and want to troll me :-(
The Beta tape I recently ordered arrived in packaging branded 8C+, so maybe Beta are re-branding? No announcement of a rebrand on their website though which is a bit odd?
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So, I also found Beta chalk blocks in stock with NeedleSports. I placed an order and received today. Opened the parcel to find lots of... 8C+ chalk blocks... I wonder what's happening there then, suspiciously two places have replaced Beta with 8C+ now. Unless staff at Needle Sports read this thread and want to troll me :-(
The Beta tape I recently ordered arrived in packaging branded 8C+, so maybe Beta are re-branding? No announcement of a rebrand on their website though which is a bit odd?
NeedleSports have said it's a rebrand from Beta. It's a bit strange, because it's completely different chalk. Was the tape any different? Seems odd V12 didn't mention it.
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”Same amazing chalk and tape, just new packaging!” (https://www.instagram.com/p/CDtUYvajl64/?igshid=4sf8myuob733)
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”Same amazing chalk and tape, just new packaging!” (https://www.instagram.com/p/CDtUYvajl64/?igshid=4sf8myuob733)
Ah well, there we go. Mystery solved.
Except it's not the same chalk. Off to find a new brand then. Where's that 9a pseudowaffle chalk I've been hearing about?
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Just discussion sponsorship deal with Aidan Roberts, provided he is involved in the final stages of the manufacturing process.
Watch this space.
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So 8c+ (the artist formerly known as beta) chalk is also not available in the uk now (according to Rich in V12).
Beta and then 8c+ were my go-to and now I feel a bit lost. I just bought a block of metolius but wasn’t blown away by it. Now there are about a million chalk brands out there plus the fact my skin totally went to shit on a recent trip made me wonder if there’s something better out there?
I have pretty wet tips and often get massive flappers from big sharp holds… not sure if that’s because the rest of my fingers get too dry?
Wary of using fricky labs as don’t want to get addicted to expensive chalk…
Any suggestions on a decent chalk that comes in a non-plastic wrapper? Always nice to minimise plastic use :ang:
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I prefer the Moon chalk. Gone back to it from FL even tho I can get the latter cheap. I have v sweaty tips and do use the FL secret stuff.
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So 8c+ (the artist formerly known as beta) chalk is also not available in the uk now (according to Rich in V12).
Beta and then 8c+ were my go-to and now I feel a bit lost. I just bought a block of metolius but wasn’t blown away by it. Now there are about a million chalk brands out there plus the fact my skin totally went to shit on a recent trip made me wonder if there’s something better out there?
I have pretty wet tips and often get massive flappers from big sharp holds… not sure if that’s because the rest of my fingers get too dry?
Wary of using fricky labs as don’t want to get addicted to expensive chalk…
Any suggestions on a decent chalk that comes in a non-plastic wrapper? Always nice to minimise plastic use :ang:
I heard gecko is quite good from a few people and a bit cheaper than friction labs
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I've been using Rock Technologies chalk and find it just as good as Friction Labs.
https://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/16543999/rock-technologi-loose-chalk-16543999
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I thought Gecko was abysmal. Moon for me, also comes in a paper bag.
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I've been using Rock Technologies chalk and find it just as good as Friction Labs.
https://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/16543999/rock-technologi-loose-chalk-16543999
+1 and as a nice bonus it's made in Greenfield in the Chew valley. So you are supporting a small local business (depending on you location).
It's very fine chalk, so if you like a chunkier chalk it might not be for you, but I think it works well.
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Another vote for how shit Gekco Grip is - what I bought was the consistency of flour. I also find the spelling (presumably focus-grouped) and mischaracterisation of how geckos stick to things (actually a lot more interesting than physical 'gripping') appalling. But maybe I just need to get a (gekco) grip.
Moon Dust is still the best balance between quality and price in my opinion.
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Nice thanks all! Climbing Technologies looks to fit the bill? Will also try out Moon.
Both local(ish) to me in Sheffield. Can get rock technologies in a massive tub so if it’s good I’ll probably go for that, might see if I can return the tub to them too. Unless it’s useful 🧐
I’ll try and remember to report back for any lurkers who are interested…
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Moon tends to be the favourite for people with tough, dry skin.
If you've got quite damp tips, it might not be for you.
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If you want to experiment with drying agent (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,33364.msg671151.html#msg671151) , I can drop some round for you. I find it makes a difference and have had good feedback from others
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I have dry skin and find rock tech gives me splits every time I’ve used it, so beware on that.
It doesn’t matter anyways, chalk will feel different for everyone so you’re probably better off experimenting before buying a whole tub of whatever chalk
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There should be a boutique chalk vending store which stores small quantities in a controlled environment, along with sample holds of different rock types you can hang odd in different climatically controlled rooms.
"I think I'll try the BD Black Gold, with just an extra percent of drying agent mixed in"
"An excellent choice sir, let me just prepare that for you"
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So 8c+ (the artist formerly known as beta) chalk is also not available in the uk now (according to Rich in V12).
Another 8C+ enjoyer.. I was also having a panic after trying this chalk once, loving it, and then its gone forever..
I've just (this Sunday) ordered several blocks of 8C+ from trekinn.com which is some sort of subpage of tradeinn.com. I've never used it before, £8.99 shipping, and from the tracking link it appears to be coming direct from Spain, fingers crossed. The packaging and logo appear to be slightly different on their page but I'm hoping it's the same chalk and this is just from it being an old picture. If it arrives before Thursday then I'll post here and update otherwise it will be a week before I can check.
Moon used to be my previous fav
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If you want to experiment with drying agent (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,33364.msg671151.html#msg671151) , I can drop some round for you. I find it makes a difference and have had good feedback from others
Nice one - will see how this chalk is and give to a shout!
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On the environmental side the Gekco stuff feels pretty compelling, sourced in the UK without any mining, whereas nearly all other chalk is mined in China and then shipped often with added chemicals which I don't like - drying agents fuck my skin big time. I thought it was pretty good performance wise but I am a punter...
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https://www.kletterkalk.co.uk/product-page/extreme-moisture-control
Anyone tried this?
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https://www.kletterkalk.co.uk/product-page/extreme-moisture-control
Anyone tried this?
I got some at a demo last week and have been using it since Saturday. Was told it would take about a week of applying twice daily to get the full effect. Have noticed some improvement so far indoors I'm getting out tomorrow so I'll post an update.
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Cheers, interesting to hear.
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Okay so I got some Black Diamond Black Gold in Font which came with the expected annoying prattle to justify the price tag:
Black Gold Chalk is scientifically engineered to enhance your grip. By combining our classic White Gold, the most trusted chalk on the market, with 10% Pure Gold—a concentrated form of hyper-absorbent Upsalite—we’ve created Black Gold, an additive-free blend of chalk with TWICE the absorption of regular chalk.
Looking further at "Pure Gold"
Featuring a concentrated formula of Upsalite—a scientifically engineered form of magnesium carbonate that absorbs 10 times more moisture than regular chalk—Pure Gold is an additive-free chalk that will enhance your grip. Mix it with loose chalk to customize your blend or used as a pre-coat to optimize your grip.
Can basically STFUpsalite. Although reading the similar waffle on the back of the packet, apparently that.....stuff is normal magnesium carbonate with some sort of different physical "structure" to make it more expensive absorbent.
However here's the clincher. It seemed pretty good. It's a bit hard to tell as I was being as fussy as usual about conditions and had finally got to stage where my skin had grown back to something noticeably better than a peeled babies butt, but it did seem good. A bit crunchier than usual (which is my preference), and pretty, well, dry.
So it could be a winner, price aside.
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Upsalite info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoporous_magnesium_carbonate
Says its' a a nano material with a greater surface area than normal magnesium carbonate. Developed in Uppsala University, hence the name:
The first patent on MMCs was granted in 2017,[4] and it is now being commercialized by the spin-out company Disruptive Materials AB in Uppsala, Sweden, for applications within cosmetics, sport products and other technical areas. MMCs is also being investigated within pharmaceutical applications.
For a self-confessed sweat monster like yourself Fiend it sounds like you might have found your dream product. Bet Dave Mac bathes in it. Also sounds potentially handy for controlling humidity in damp environments.
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Fiend, you're not imagining it; Black Gold chalk is the business. It's the best one i've ever used and it's not even close.
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An update on Kletterkalk sweat guard
I found it was quite effective at reducing the amount of sweat my fingers were producing which almost completely stopped me sweating through my chalk but doesn't seem to be causing any of the skin-hardening effects that I get with methenamine-based products.
I have super soft skin so the lack of skin hardening is kind of a deal breaker for me especially when I can use methenamine products which I don't have to apply twice a day and do a good job of hardening and stopping the sweating.
It might be an option if you want to reduce sweating without drying your skin out
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Cheers for the test. I have a bag of Black Gold, Bought from BD to reach a free postage threshold, will bust it out when it's really needed. I have so much chalk now I may never need any more ever. It will be part of my will.