UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Paul B on May 21, 2012, 07:42:39 pm
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As the price of rock shoes tipped £100 I did the tight firsted thing and refused to buy any new boots (that'll teach them ::) ).
This of course means that now I'm left with every single shoe that I own* absolutely wrecked. Despite being wrecked (rand gone, laces snapped, generally filthy, rounded with a 5p sized hole in the end), my blanco's were causing me ridiculous amount of Achilles pain a weekend or so ago at Gogarth so I need something with a less aggressive heel.
I tend to be doing more and more limestone type trad (a destroyed pair of greens will suffice on grit for now) including quite a few longer routes (potential Dolomites trip coming up shortly), however I am wanting to get onto some harder stuff so pure bumbly shoes aren't really an option.
Now, I've resolutely used 5.10 for years but what should I try, Gallileos, something Scarpa based?
* excluding a pair of dragons
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Galileos if your feet are wide enough
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vapours?
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The Galileos sit very high on the achilles, so if the whites have been giving you trouble they may not be for you. Have you got beef with normal velcroes?
I've not tried them, but have always thought that the Latana lace up looked like a good all roud traddy type choice; I'm sure some peeps will be able to tell you haw they fare on limestone.
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I got a pair of instinct lace ups recently thinking they would be the most obvious replacement for my old magos (other than some new magos).
Didn't turn out that way, for me they are nothing like as stiff and the down turn has flattened out already.
However, they are turning out to be a good trad boot, very comfy and precise.
Not tried vapours but I would have thought they were the obvious middle-high end trad shoe from the current Scarpa range.
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I guess it depends on which heel they currently have on the velcros?
I tend to favour stiffer shoes.
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I tend to wear the Verdes which are half a size up from normal (i.e 8 in Velcros, 8.5 in Verdes) these have worked brilliantly for a year or so, from single pitch right through to 6 pitch mountain routes.
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Have you ruled out LaSportiva? Katanas have always been my shoe of choice for limestone. If the velcros aren't stiff enough the lace ups are a bit stiffer and more down turned. Miuras / Solutions also available.
Plus you can normally pick them up a bit cheaper using this trick (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,13826.msg249463.html#msg249463)
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If you get on well with 5.10 shoes maybe think about trying the Rogues, fit very similar to the velcros, not as wide as the Galileo's (I don't think) and a less aggressive heel and last and no downturn compared to the velcros. I bought some for using at the wall as you can get them pretty cheap 50-70 quid and have been surprised that they seem to perform almost as well as my anasazis while being a fair bit more comfortable, the perforated upper is also noticeably airier, not sure that is a good thing? Only had them a month or so so not sure about long term but have been good so far.
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Can't you just sell a lens, and get a few pairs of whatever you want?
Seriously though, I know a few people who favour the Instinct Lace. The Galileo would be worth trying. The heel might be as high, but isn't as aggressive as the blancos, so should be ok.
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Not to be a smart-arse, but next you see a really good deal at the Works get 2 or 3 in your size. Bargain! Add in a really nasty bout of tendonosis (years, not months) and hey presto - you've saved a fortune AND have 3 pairs of shiny boots spare!
Works for me. So to speak. (I think the theory was good but I'll need to recover to test it, sometime around the next Jubilee I expect..)
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I've got a dodgy left achilles which the elastic tension bands on Anasazis irritate. I find Katanas to be a better fit in that regard for me and once broken in they're a pretty good shoe that is also comfy enough for long multipitch trad. Evolv Bandits also work for me in the same way (they're a bit cheaper as well).
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I tend to be doing more and more limestone type trad (a destroyed pair of greens will suffice on grit for now) including quite a few longer routes (potential Dolomites trip coming up shortly), however I am wanting to get onto some harder stuff so pure bumbly shoes aren't really an option.
Now, I've resolutely used 5.10 for years but what should I try, Gallileos, something Scarpa based?
I favour Galileos for almost everything to be honest. They are pretty much the perfect trad boot: you can get them pretty tight, and being velcros, easily pop them off on stances, yet still actually climb fairly hard moves in them. In fact i've worn them for a few harder sport routes as they are way more comfortable, and a tad stiffer than velcros etc, so you get more support and can et more weight through your feet on shakeouts. I've climbed Indian Creek cracks in them, Yosemite walls, most UK trad stuff, the only thing they don't do well is steep toe pully type climbing, especially pockets; which dragons are pretty much ideal for. So as long as they fit your feet, get some. I think V12 flog em instore for £85 ish?
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Thanks for the input thus far:
Galileos - yes V12, Needlesports etc. have them at what seems like a reasonable rate these days.
Vapour lace - Haven't seen these
Instinct lace - Barrows wears these :sick: , my last pair of Scarpa shoes were the LLE slippers ages ago, I take it the rubber is good etc. ?
Katana Lace - I was eyeing up Stu's pair of these the other night, unfortunately he's spec'd them for climbing on jugs so couldn't really tell me anything useful. ;)
Verdes - This is what I've got (in a decaying form) for grit, (half size large), they just go too soft too fast, I was almost inclined to buy a tighter pair and hope this helped.
Bandits - The last pair of Evolvs I had were the original predators, the rubber was shocking. Has that changed?
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I had a pair of bandits I liked them at the time. The rubber was shocking and wore away in a couple of months to the point I could put my toe through them. I don't think I will ever go back to wearing evolv shoes
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Rubber on the current model Bandits seems fine to me.
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I've got some Tenaya lace ups. Can't remember which model. They took a while to bed in and felt a bit clunky to start with (rubber felt quite thick). But now I really like them, and will get another pair. I guess they're kind of like an old 5.10 pink but more lateral stiffness. They also seem really well made (although I can only compare them to 5.10 so this perhaps isn't saying much...). JB has some I think??
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I really rate Miuras for limestone. Worn fairly tight they are precise enough for anything - very commonly seen on the feet of Ondra and other Euro-beast. My current pair are perhaps a half-size bigger than my minimum and were comfortable enough for full days' sport cragging in a hot Turkey. The laces are very easy to tighten for a bit more feel for those harder pitches / redpoints.
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another vote for Muira's and Muira VS's, brilliant and comfy boots (if they fit your feet)
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I had a pair of bandits I liked them at the time. The rubber was shocking and wore away in a couple of months to the point I could put my toe through them. I don't think I will ever go back to wearing evolv shoes
The original trax (Evolv) rubber was very soft - probably even softer than Stealth (I was still with 5.10 in this era but did get one pair of Talons with the old rubber when I switched) word on the street (ie Matt Birch) said they were really sticky but deformed on small edges and didn't last long - hence some of the above posts. The new rubber is harder than Stealth and in terms of durability probably (I don't really know) similar to most brands.
I use the Banditts for all my trad and longer stuff now, they may well be a little soft for you Paul - I used to climb in pinks (or velcros) in my 5.10 days. If you are after a try of a pair I have plenty in a fairly worn state (I am guessing that as you are also a dwarf you may have similar size feet to me)
I you want something a little stiffer them Sportiva or Scarpa lace ups look good (don't know the names but they look like each other)
Also for Dollies or longer stuff Newtons are great - they take about a year to wear in but last about 5 more. Not the most sensitive though.
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I also suggest Miuras. For me it all depends on the fit and Miuras are perfect for me. Perhaps not the stickiest rubber but generally they provide an excellent all-round performance.
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I've got some Tenaya lace ups. Can't remember which model. They took a while to bed in and felt a bit clunky to start with (rubber felt quite thick). But now I really like them, and will get another pair. I guess they're kind of like an old 5.10 pink but more lateral stiffness. They also seem really well made (although I can only compare them to 5.10 so this perhaps isn't saying much...). JB has some I think??
I have a pair of Tenaya Masai and straight out of the box they are a very very good shoe but on the lime trad my feet were starting to ache after a few hours of stoving them into beeston pockets where as my whites felt like mono-points. They don't feel as aggressive at the back of the foot as whites but my achiles felt slightly sore after a full day in them still. I'll be buying them again.
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Them's the badgers. I like 'em. After bedding in they are comfy for me. Better fitting heel than pinks/verdes, not as good as Dragon heel (but then what is??). Might try the other lace ups in the range next time.
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I use the Banditts for all my trad and longer stuff now, they may well be a little soft for you Paul - I used to climb in pinks (or velcros) in my 5.10 days. If you are after a try of a pair I have plenty in a fairly worn state (I am guessing that as you are also a dwarf you may have similar size feet to me)
Cheers Ben, I'm a size 7, 7.5 ish? (maybe I should of done more than just mock your posters at the last boot demo).
Also for Dollies or longer stuff Newtons are great - they take about a year to wear in but last about 5 more. Not the most sensitive though.
We might be off there in a fortnight or so depending on flights/finance although I'm yet to convince Nat about a few of my targets.
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Miura lace.
Instinct Lace is very stiff (as is the Miura VS) and I had mine about a month before deciding that they were too stiff and selling them on. Everyone has different preferences of stiffness that they prefer though.
The Miura lace has 4mm rubber and are supportive on small edges but they really give good feedback. I guess that it may be because they don't have the P3 system as the Velcro.
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I tried the majority of options tonight and the most comfortable were Anasazi velcro's (out of the box).
I was fairly impressed with the Newtons but I bet they're fun if you ever encounter a pocket.
Sportivas just didn't fit.
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Pink Anasazis...
Possibly the best all-round shoe I've ever had.
These days I have a pair 1/2 size down from street shoe for edgy/steep stuff and a pair at street size for smeary/warm up...
Crap for toe hooking.
I quite like the heel (probably 'cos I happen to fit it and it doesn't cripple my Achilles).
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Paul, did you ever settle on what shoes you get on with best for multipitch, fairly hard trad?
My last 2 pairs of "do everything" shoes have been Scarpa Vapour Velcros which were great in the Dolomites last year and fine in riglos, (not that that means much since you could happily get up there in clown shoes: Petit Bus Rouge Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPVoMqVt-u8#ws) ) Chamonix Granite etc. etc. So, basically I like them.
However, my last pair just wore out and I have bought a pair a half size bigger for yosemite. My only worry is that they're definitely too big for anything harder than around Fr6b/6c and I think on smeary cranite corners etc. they could be a bit of a nightmare. The obvious choice is to get "another" pair in my usual size, but was wondering if you found something else that has worked well in your recent travels?
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I don't think I get anywhere near 'hard' or 'fairly hard' trad but for this trip:
I haven't found myself thinking of Yosemite as smeary as in general the Granite has such low friction (I kept falling over when I got here just walking to the routes as it took a while to adjust to which low angle boulders you could stand on happily). Generally when I've been struggling its because I've been failing to stand in the obvious crack/corner and have instead chosen to smear. Ironically it took me a while to do the opposite in Squamish, thus making the routes there harder than necessary!
I brought with me a pair of Verdes (these were pretty comfy when sized tight but not crippling and I found them good on cracks). A pair of Blancos (these are sized for UK limestone and as such they've barely had any use as they are agony). Trying to break them in on Squamish slabs was as unsuccessful as it was terrifying. I've just bought a pair of the 'new' VCS Petroglyphs (i.e. purples), thus far they've been brilliant (slabs, cracks etc.) but your toes suffer a bit more when torquing them into cracks as there are (obviously) no laces to offer a cushion. The obvious benefit is they can be slipped off at the belay.
Predictably given all 3 pairs above are 5.10 I feel compelled to point out that they're falling apart, the rand went on the Verdes and I expect the whites to drop to bits the moment they get any serious use (maybe 5.10 will start selling 'kit shoes', at least then you could blame the crap-gluing on yourself). I'm also on my second pair of approach shoes and I don't expect my guide tennies to last to next weekend.
Before I went away I happened upon a pair of the new Scarpa down-turned shoes (whatever they're called) and the build will make me look far more seriously at other models when I'm home (here 5.10 seem to be cheapest and there isn't a great deal of choice).
Everyone here raves about Sportiva TC Pros.
Hope this is of some help.
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I don't think I get anywhere near 'hard' or 'fairly hard' trad but for this trip:
I haven't found myself thinking of Yosemite as smeary as in general the Granite has such low friction (I kept falling over when I got here just walking to the routes as it took a while to adjust to which low angle boulders you could stand on happily). Generally when I've been struggling its because I've been failing to stand in the obvious crack/corner and have instead chosen to smear. Ironically it took me a while to do the opposite in Squamish, thus making the routes there harder than necessary!
Ha, the "smeary" comment was mainly due to thinking Squamish would be similar to Yosemite. So, I need something I can firmly ram into cracks. Do you think you want something quite stiff then? When I say "hard" I mean "hard for me" not hard in the grand scheme of things. Might be alright with the Velcros. My only other thought is a pair of Instinct laces but I do prefer velcro for getting them off at stances.
Everyone here raves about Sportiva TC Pros.
I tried them on as I'd heard good things, but like all La Sportiva shoes I just couldn't imagine them fitting in any size. They just felt totally wrong in the shop.
Hope this is of some help.
Definitely!
Now, can someone put out the wild fires so we can go climbing??? :please:
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I'm heading to Valley in Sept and have been hassling Paul for boot beta. Basically the same as you Fult, what to wear if I need a bit more performance but still an all day route.
I'm just going to throw another one in to the mix for consideration.
Five Ten Stoneland VCS.
I bought a pair as my comfy all day shoe and have been climbing happily all day in UK around E1-E3 range.
They have a nice relaxed heel so no Five Ten heel issues.
Velcro for quick removal at stance.
Very good rubber coverage over the toe so they offer some protection in cracks.
The last is apparently designed to allow the toes to sit flatter rather than curled up which gives mre comfort in cracks.
The felt simillar in stiffness to Anasazi VCS to start with but softened up somewhat. They aren't a stiff shoe but they do smear pretty well.
I am considering bying some in a smaller size for a more performance fit. My only reservation is that as they're not very stiff they won't be too good for stuffing into typical yosemite cracks.
Saying that plenty of Yanks like the Mythos and Moccasyms which both strike me as awful for medium sized Yosemite cracks.
Very positve review here;
http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/stonelands-vcs (http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/stonelands-vcs)
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Ha, the "smeary" comment was mainly due to thinking Squamish would be similar to Yosemite.
Not at all, the Granite in Yosemite is surprisingly (disappointing?) slick. If we were talking purely in terms of rock quality I'd say Squamish would win hands down, but that's just my opinion.
Its a tough call on shoes, I spent quite a lot of time hassling Tommy about this. I've found that stiff boots feel great in punter level cracks but as soon as you get a little bit techy it pays to have something slightly softer that will deform a little when the cracks won't take your whole foot etc. I'd imagine whites would be great once they are truly broken in (i.e. past their slate and limestone suitably stages). However, I'd made the classic mistake of wearing my 'good' pair until they were ruined leaving me no real time to break them in on things which weren't going to terrify me (and there's always that heel pain).
The Stonelands are interesting. They came into the shop in which I worked before general release and they seemed great given the price point that they were supposedly going to retail at (can anyone confirm what this is?). They are/were very soft though.
As of yet the wildfires haven't impacted the valley itself (apart from closing one of the roads out) but they do look f**king huge!
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Ha, the "smeary" comment was mainly due to thinking Squamish would be similar to Yosemite.
The Stonelands are interesting. They came into the shop in which I worked before general release and they seemed great given the price point that they were supposedly going to retail at (can anyone confirm what this is?). They are/were very soft though.
They are soft, but if you have a broadish forefoot and want a trad shoe with a bit of toe power and sensitivity they are great. If only they didn't look so shit.
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I've heard good things about bandits, but they don't fit my feet at all.
I see loads of trad climbers in Anasazi pinks, all over peak limestone trad.
They seem to have a much friendlier heel then the v2s (blancos), but don't quote me on that as i own v2s not pinks.
I also see a lot of people around peak limestone wearing instinct lace for everything (trad, sport, bouldering etc).
The boostics have a vapour-esque heel, which may be good for you, but the slight downturn may put you off.
Its hardly a brutal downturn though, and i rate them for longevity with that xs edge rubber (plus the handy toe patch for jams or whatever).
I think they are worth a shot, if nothing else. I use them for pretty much everything, but that tends to mostly be bouldering and sport.
All this said, i see Instinct lace-ups all over peak limestone as a bit of a jack of all trades.
I guess its what fits...
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I haven't read the previous replies but the answer is baggy La Sportiva Mythos for hard cracks, Miuras for everything else. If Miuras don't fit I have no idea...
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It's now shoe time once again - as I have pretty much worn out another pair of Vapur VCS. I could just get another pair - I've now had 3 pairs in the same size and done 1000s of metres of trad and sport in them, but this year I've really been noticing the difference one harder sport onsights on vertical ground (~7a/7b) and on long, hard trad pitches that they don't offer amazing "support". Even on vertical ground I now reach for my Scarpa Styx and the difference in edging, smearing and power is huge.
This gives me a dilemma. I would like something more powerful/supportive that I can still climb cracks in, and long multi-pitch trad in the F6c-Fr7b region. Reading back through this, I see the muira's get quite a good rating. Previously I couldn't imagine them fitting my feet, but yesterday I treid some on and fuck me, they fitted! I'm not sure what happened, maybe they were a different size, maybe they had been tried on quite a lot so had shaped better, but they seemed like they would work.
With this in mind, what are people's thoughts on Lace vs Velcro? I much prefer velcro for popping the heels off at belays, but are they too stiff? Or do they break in ok after a while?
My other thoughts are Scarpa Boostix - I get on well with the styx now they have broken in but in the shop, the size that fits well definitely forces my toes into more of a downturn / chisel position. They will be great for edges and power - but I think the muiras may turn out to be comfier on long routes? I know Dave McLeod swears by boostix for trad and face climbing, but then, that's at much higher grades so maybe not relevant.
Bottom line is - should I try Muiras this time? If so, lace or velcro? Is the fit similar? (They had no lace-ups in the shop)
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The miura vs can be a little more forgiving if you have high volume feet as the toebox is a little roomier. I used the ladies VS which has the better rubber (xsgrip2) and is therefore a little bit softer, more similar to the lace-up version.
The difference between the miura vs and boostic is massive in my opinion as I found the boostic to be stiff as boards but then I like a soft shoe. There's no way you could just go half a size/full size bigger in stix if you know you like them?
I'd imagine that if it were me I wouldn't be trying to use the same shoes on my hard sport climbs as I would on long trad routes. Having only ever climbed a handful of trad routes and being scared shitless and faffing around for an age, I certainly wouldn't want to wear the same shoes I wear on sport routes, well not the same size at least.
Ultimately your decision but it doesn't work out any more expensive in the long run to have separate shoes for different things, so long as you use them up eventually.
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No-one sells styx around here...
I've already got about 7 pairs of shoes. I hadn't expected the Boostics to be so stiff. I haven't actually tried them climbing.
Is there a big difference between the Muira lace and Velcro?
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Can you get them online? I know bananafingers will ship pretty much anywhere.
There's the new booster s which is meant to be a little stiffer than the stix but similar according to Stevie Haston's blog (thanks to whoever posted the link originally): http://steviehaston.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/scarpa-booster-s-by-stevie-haston.html (http://steviehaston.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/scarpa-booster-s-by-stevie-haston.html)
I found that the lace-up taking longer to get on/off (obviously, but they do have a decent 'fast lacing' system however the laces are shit and break after not very long), a touch narrower, they don't have a plastic P3 midsole like the VS and solution so they lose their downturned shape after a short period of time. The toebox is a touch lower in volume, and they are only available with the shit rubber (xsedge).
I've owned the lace-up (old style with xsgrip rubber and newer with xsedge2), the men's and women's VS. IMO the VS is superior but some people have problems if they climb in that 'rockover then drag the other foot against the wall' style as the lowest strap can wear through. They're also not great on toehooks as the straps are a bit slippy, which is the only thing the lace-ups are better at. You get a bit more power from the toe on the men's VS and more feel and grip from the women's VS.
Don't be afraid to go into a shop and spend an hour trying on every model on the shelf though, I like to do this every now and then as your understanding of a good shoe changes over the years. When I first started climbing I was concerned about how stylish the shoes looked, now I couldn't care less so I just focus on the important bits.
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Is there a big difference between the Muira lace and Velcro?
Yes. It seems the Muira lace is a lace version of the katana velcro (both quite soft)
and the katana lace is a lace version of the mura velcro. (both quite stiff)
Miura velcro was designed by same bod who designed scarpa vapor (moved company). So it is a similar fit but a bit stiffer as uses the stiffer of the vibram rubbers.
Bottom line is - should I try Muiras this time? If so, lace or velcro? Is the fit similar?
Miuras or katana lace worth a punt if you after something stiffer. The fit of these is similar.
The vapor lace (another option) is a stiffer version of the vapor v - uses stiffer vibram rubber.
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Seems like the Muira velcro is the stiffest of the velcros? I'd really rather avoid lace ups for belay comfort.
The more I read, the more I think I should try them.
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I like the concise summary from highrepute there but it's worth noting that whilst they climb similarly (muira lace/katana velcro and katana lace/muira VS) they do not fit the same. I can't get on with katanas but can with muiras and the scarpa vapour velcro destroys my Achilles whereas the muira vs does not.
I'd say the scarpa boostics would be the stiffest, closely followed by something like an evolv shaman? Then muira vs (men's) then women's. If you don't mind a stiff shoe then it might be worth looking at the shaman as I've heard good things about them comfort and fit wise. Bit stiff for me personally but apparently they soften up eventually.
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Another vote for the Tenaya Masai.
Tenaya bought the last of the old pink from 5.10 if rumours are true so the toe is the old pink with a better heel. Definitely stiffer than the verde and better built, last longer, never had whites but I believe softer than them.
I've done easy multi pitch on idwal slabs and climbed at my limit on grit in them E7 grit top roping and font 7a+ish on grit but I think they are best on limestone! Not what I bought them for but getting more into sport this summer they have been superb and very comfy!
Deffo worth trying on.
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Given they've now been out for a while, how are people finding the Pinks? I tried a pair on the other night and wasn't overly taken with the toe-box / edging capability they had.
I'm currently sat on the fence of which shoes to buy for a French, big traddy sport type trip (Verdon, Aiglun etc.).
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I got mine in July (if I remember rightly), they were perfect out of the box, but they have softened up a lot since then. I'd probably go down a size next time.
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I got mine in July (if I remember rightly), they were perfect out of the box, but they have softened up a lot since then. I'd probably go down a size next time.
They do feel VERY comfy out of the box in a size 7. I'm not sure I'd contemplate smaller for all-day wearing though?
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I'm currently sat on the fence of which shoes to buy for a French, big traddy sport type trip (Verdon, Aiglun etc.).
Something decent. You can't get away with shit shoes like you can on granite. I'd get some whites greens or velcros a bit bigger than you wear for sport climbing. I'd accept some misery at the end of the day over comfy but shit.
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Don't worry, I wasn't even considering a pair of Mythos or Moccs!
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I got mine in July (if I remember rightly), they were perfect out of the box, but they have softened up a lot since then. I'd probably go down a size next time.
They do feel VERY comfy out of the box in a size 7. I'm not sure I'd contemplate smaller for all-day wearing though?
But worn in they'd probably make a good; comfy pair of trad shoes.
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They'd need to do so in just over a week. :spank:
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I'm currently sat on the fence of which shoes to buy for a French, big traddy sport type trip (Verdon, Aiglun etc.).
Something decent. You can't get away with shit shoes like you can on granite. I'd get some whites greens or velcros a bit bigger than you wear for sport climbing. I'd accept some misery at the end of the day over comfy but shit.
Interesting you should say that. I bought some "comfy" shoes for multipitch granite in France last summer; they seemed to work ok for that but otherwise I found them clumpy and insensitive, never really liked or trusted them. This summer I had ambitious alpine limestone plans, and had pretty much decided against comfy but crap and in favour of Miura Laces that were old and knackered enough to be wearable for a few pitches, but I trusted them. (Then it rained)