UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: jwi on February 28, 2024, 02:44:47 pm
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https://fanatic-climbing.com/the-big-island-reference-du-haut-niveau-situe-en-zone-sensible-the-big-island-an-hardcore-boulder-located-in-a-fragile-area/
At the end of the 2000s, the deal between the authorities and climbers was simple: climbing is tolerated, but only on condition that there are no circuits, and that visitor numbers remain reasonable and reasoned, i.e. with no mention in climbing guidebooks, information having to be passed on by word of mouth between initiated climbers.
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Images of bad behavior on “The Big Island” are regularly posted on social media, with the climbers in question gradually legitimizing their disrespectful practice with their community, encouraging them to do the same.
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Last summer we walked in to have a look at the problem to the right of the island. Nobody there (I mean, it was summer, so I didn't expect there to be anyone else), but there was a stack of 3 or four soggy crash pads "stashed" in plain sight and not sufficiently sheltered to not get wet.
Last October going to a different sector within the Biological Reserve, my son was bored with me projecting, so went exploring and found a crash pad along with a broken (completely broken, just a fixed length piece of aluminium 1m long with nothing else on it) brushstick. We disposed off the broken brushstick i.e. carried it out, drove it to Scotland (didn't know what bin to put it in in France) and would have done the same with the pad, had our car not already been rammed (two snap wraps and a boss hog and a family)
The laziness and selfishness exhibited with pad stashing is frankly astonishing. I regularly carry the three pads mentioned above on my own and I barely weigh any more than Paul B
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Stumbled across the Big Island last week on a wet walk from Milly.
Four pads and two poles stashed underneath.
Also the remains of a small campfire on the little path.
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Saw a vid on IG of someone doing said problem, seemed to have a Bluetooth speaker going. Twat.
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The idiots are winning..
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Saw a vid on IG of someone doing said problem, seemed to have a Bluetooth speaker going. Twat.
Was posted in the dab thread.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3nNdA4tHle/
The never-ending debate in one IG post: fans, music, future of Font, etc
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That particular perp appears to be 15, so perhaps he just needs better advices
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So for once those annoying kids took out their ear pods? Or did he still have them in with the speaker going?
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Big Island needs an in situ Cedric Lachat to kick speakers out in the forests.
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every popular crag does.
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mejidi also uploaded video about climbing big island, was climbing in pitch black and screaming, wanted to continue watching it today but it's gone (let's hope there was some pressure from sponsors!), though I have never understood the night rule, is it when it gets dark, or when it is night? First being on the winter times 4:30 when it's already pitch black, which kind of implies that there is no climbing mon-fri for normal working person in font. VS eg no climbing after 8pm, (reason I ask is I've seen two philosophies of this!)
the other side of the coin would be when it is 10PM and there is still light.
I saw no calling out from big guns like manu coru either
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One side to the night rule to my understanding is not disturbing diurnal animals trying to sleep.
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No climbing at night in practice means the landowners don't want lights there when its dark I'd imagine, just as it does in the UK. I've never understood the view that lamping should be allowed because its the only time people can get out. Landowners don't care and I can see why.
Also what Plattsy says: https://bleau.info/ethique?locale=en
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One side to the night rule to my understanding is not disturbing diurnal animals trying to sleep.
And also, presumably, the nocturnal animals trying to hunt.
"Next week, bats. Are they really blind, or just taking the piss"
(Obscure Fast Show reference)
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I took it whilst in font for a long period to be what Jim had said (as in no lamping at all) , but the new rules about parking until 10 is leading me to take it to mean until 10 is fine to be honest. I'd have thought if the rules were to stipulate otherwise the parking rules would have specified nightfall or 1h after nightfall for example.
I'm curious as to what would people would say if someone tried something like trojan war at night which is literally lit by street lights at night for example though...
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I would've thought the parking until 10 rule would be to curb vanlifers and those camping in the woods, rather than anything specifically about climbing.
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I'm curious as to what would people would say if someone tried something like trojan war at night which is literally lit by street lights at night for example though...
Is it technically within the forest (I appreciate that it's in the forest, but I mean the ONF part)?
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Wild-life is unlikely to be goverened by clock time.
I would think most animals in the forests would be crepscular or crepscular + nocturnal.
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Approximately there:
Buthiers, Île-de-France
https://maps.app.goo.gl/HAhZPAGua6PFTRfW7 Rodma.
I don't disagree jwi, but I'd also argue then that a number of crags that are seconds away from roads that are busy throughout the night (Buthiers Nord is next to a very busy road) and the increased impact by climbers at those spots would be minimal at best. Equally I understand why blanket restrictions is what has happened, but in some ways they seem heavy handed.
In terms of camper vans being banned at most spots, I understand the other side (in terms of how busy it was in Easter etc) but equally have met many people who are not as fortunate as I (I'm able to do long stays in Airbnbs due to life flexibility) and would stay in a van as cheaply as possible and at certain times of the year (when the Bivouacs are full) will now be priced out of the area which is disappointing as it does seem like often the poorer in society are those who are impacted the most by restrictions such as the that of the overnight parking issues. Some of the comments online about this topic reek of privilege to me.
Back on topic, the music at the crag I do think is pretty ridiculous. Climbing at night in the coquibus is also a bit shit.
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Thanks Yetix
I was trying to see if on managed land at Buthiers (i had a bit of a Google), but am struggling. Certainly not in a BR or on ONF land as far as I can see, so as much as we think of things as being as in the forest, it's never quite that straightforward
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There are plenty of cheap options for accommodation in the area, one of the reasons I go to Font is because it's a very cheap and affordable trip with no flying. That said, it would be good if the camping ban lead to more official van parkup points like the one in Milly.
The van scenes at places like Isatis are a disgrace and the tightened rules can't come quickly enough in my opinion. As for privilege, I guess maybe I'd have been able to replace my shitty Combo with 180k on the clock which cost me £3k 12 years ago if I'd skimped on paying for camping or a gite all these years? Perhaps with a Transporter with built in slackline rig and obligatory stickers all over the side of places I have taken an off-road dump in.
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The camping at grez is still cheap as chips (just over a tenner a night for two adults).
I don't really see anyone being priced out of the market at that sort of price. Appreciate that campsites are closed for winter months, but, you know, them's the breaks. I presume formule1 are still cheap and shit, when split 3 ways, I'm fairly sure there are also some terrible Airbnb options in less appealing apartments in Fontainebleau itself, but none of these make it any easier to take a shit beside your van in the middle of the night, which is what freedom is all about, unless I'm completely missing the point :clown:
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The camping at grez is still cheap as chips (just over a tenner a night for two adults).
I don't really see anyone being priced out of the market at that sort of price. Appreciate that campsites are closed for winter months, but, you know, them's the breaks. I presume formule1 are still cheap and shit, when split 3 ways, I'm fairly sure there are also some terrible Airbnb options in less appealing apartments in Fontainebleau itself, but none of these make it any easier to take a shit beside your van in the middle of the night, play games like here (https://minersgarden.com/). which is what freedom is all about, unless I'm completely missing the point :clown:
I agree that camping offers incomparable freedom.Last year we were at Camping Zaritsi. Great location
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Bare in mind the minimum wage in Poland is approx £800 a month compared to the new minimum wage for the same hours in the uk going to be approx £1800 a month soon and you can see how the perspective might differ a little in other locations. Let's not even start on Albania or Bulgaria where the minimum wage is much lower. The impacts to people from these places is obviously going to be much more felt in terms of additional costs being added to a trip.
I'm not disputing that there were issues in the forest, just simple stating that the poorest are once again the ones who will feel this most, and it's the people in positions of relative privilege shouting loudest about this generally.
For sure people should dispose of their waste better, and be more responsible but dismissing those less fortunate who may not get to experience the few places like font as much or at all anymore seems pretty harsh to me.
Edit added relative
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Its all a bit beside the point though. It seems that not lamping the forest is the prevailing ethic there, even if it is technically legal, on the grounds of protecting the forest. Obviously there are exceptions that we could fine, but I'm unconvinced that theres much arguing against thr principle other than 'i want to so i'm going to,' which I think speaks for itself in terms of being a dick. By their nature any kind of rules are a bit heavy handed. No one can seriously expect a boulder by boulder designation of which areas are ok to climb on at night based on proximity to roads surely. If the local ethic is no climbing at night, then don't climb at night.
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Sorry Jim, the latter post is solely on the camping point really. I just queried the lamping as well above as it does seem a bit heavy handed when you consider locations such as those I've highlighted above.
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Sorry that wasn't directed at you specifically! More just the general feeling that climbers tend to try and squeeze every last bit of flex out of a rule instead of taking it as its supposed to be, ie the principle rather than the specific detail.
Van camping in climbing in general is only going to become more of a flashpoint in popular areas going forward. I feel really conflicted about the whole thing.
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Camping in a shit tent at a cheap campsite is cheaper than owning/ running a van.
The bivvy site at the roundabout nw of cuvier closing down 20 our so years ago would have had the biggest impact imho(tep) to true dirtbagging
Perhaps I'm missing something yet again and there were actually folk in tents with no transport at isatis.
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My experience of talking to locals is that the ethic that most locals abide by is very much not "no climbing in the dark with lamps" but rather "no posting/ publicising evidence of climbing in the dark with lamps".
I'm sure there are some who don't go out for lamp sessions, but most of them are lamping regularly throughout the year (winter as it's the only time they can get out midweek, and summer to get better conditions), they just won't put anything out on their public social media accounts when they do it.
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Bare in mind the minimum wage in Poland is approx £800 a month compared to the new minimum wage for the same hours in the uk going to be approx £1800 a month soon and you can see how the perspective might differ a little in other locations. Let's not even start on Albania or Bulgaria where the minimum wage is much lower. The impacts to people from these places is obviously going to be much more felt in terms of additional costs being added to a trip.
I'm not disputing that there were issues in the forest, just simple stating that the poorest are once again the ones who will feel this most, and it's the people in positions of relative privilege shouting loudest about this generally.
For sure people should dispose of their waste better, and be more responsible but dismissing those less fortunate who may not get to experience the few places like font as much or at all anymore seems pretty harsh to me.
Edit added relative
There are three free camping spots around the forest. The provision is there but is limited due to the increase in number of vans and their bad behavior.
I don't think people are dismissing those "less fortunate" than themselves, they are just aware that the van lifing has got so popular that it has put an unacceptable burden on the surrounding countryside. Maybe if people had adhered to the rules and tread lightly, access would remain. And whilst I am sympathetic to those on a shoe string, a lot of the behavior which we so deplore is from those in vehicles that would require salaries well above the breadline......
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no poor and rational person stays in a van. I've done the math more than once. It's always cheaper to stay in budget hotels the first 100 days per year.
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By that logic you may as well say no poor rational person takes up climbing. It’s always cheaper not to have enjoyable pastimes.
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By that logic you may as well say no poor rational person takes up climbing. It’s always cheaper not to have enjoyable pastimes.
That’s assuming #vanlife is the pastime (or included in it). Guessing jwi meant just somewhere to sleep as a means to allow you to climb. If you take that in isolation he’s right that you’re paying a premium to be sleeping in a van up to X number of days per year.
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Yeah I assumed he meant that and was being a bit facetious. But the principle of defining rationality on purely monetary terms is nearly always flawed. You can apply it to buying a house versus renting, a holiday home versus using hotels, personal vehicle versus renting etc. and conclude that no rational person buys abc because its cheaper to do xyz.
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no poor and rational person stays in a van. I've done the math more than once. It's always cheaper to stay in budget hotels the first 100 days per year.
This is a questionable comparison.
Firstly, 100 nights in a hotel - how much are you calculating van expenses to be?!
Secondly, where's the nearest budget hotel with availability when you decide you want to go to a craggy place on a whim?
(not disagreeing with the general point that contemporary #vanlife has f*** all to do with living cheaply)
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Depends, I know a few people who live 365 days a year in a van. They could of course still keep the van parked at "home" and go rent a budget hotel, but I can see that that's a bit far fetched. Also I don't think that if you use a van one year, let's say for a gap year, that it depreciated as much as the cost of renting cars and houses. I'd even say that second hand vans hold their value rather well.
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Yeah to clarify when I say contemporary #vanlife is not about living cheaply, I mean a particular kind of van-dwelling existence.
I also know people who live in their vans full-time, for whom financial considerations are at least part of the reason for doing so. It's a pretty rational solution to the property and rental markets.
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of course, if you stay more than 100 days / year in a van over long time it might be rational.
But whenever I did the sums a van always added up to crazy expensive. Rent of a bigger parking space, more than twice the driving cost compared to a compact car, more expensive insurance, way more expensive to repair and upkeep and much more likely to need repairs, expensive financing (expensive new, steep depreciation). Some of the costs could be controlled by converting a car myself, but compared to moonlighting by teaching classes in a different school diy did not seem worth it either.
For the yearly cost of renting a garage alone you can stay about 30-36 nights in a cheap hotel on the spanish country-side or about 20 nights on the French countryside (and owning a garage has exactly the same capital cost as renting one, at least in the two european cities where I did the calculations). The extra cost of driving a van compared to driving slow in a cheap compact easily adds up to another 10-20 nights.
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You're not renting anything to park it for free (if it's taxed, insured and has a valid MOT) on the street in the UK.
I think your comparison fails when you look at what people style as micro campers and consider that they probably use it all year round as their one and only vehicle.
I've bought and sold two vans. A T4 in 2008 and a Ford E150 in 2013 (so before #vanlife took hold) itself bought and sold in Colorado. I lost nothing on the first and a minimal amount on the second.
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Yeah i think the example given is not a general one, for the UK at least.
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Jwi’s numbers are based on his circumstances so make sense to him, not the UK certainly.
But clearly there’s a sliding scale, from someone with a fiat doblo and a mattress they’ve scrounged chucked in the back sleeping in it full time, to a massive winnebago parked on a driveway 51 weeks of the year.
But most people seem to be somewhere in the middle buying a van as their second vehicle for £10-20k, spending more £££ or DIY time to convert it. So it needs to be used a fair bit over consecutive years to break even over using hotels/rental cottages, which just isn’t the case for a lot of people. Even most climbers if they’re being honest probably.
[Obviously there’s more than just financial reasons for having a van]
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But most people seem to be somewhere in the middle buying a van as their second vehicle for £10-20k, spending more £££ or DIY time to convert it. So it needs to be used a fair bit over consecutive years to break even over using hotels/rental cottages, which just isn’t the case for a lot of people. Even most climbers if they’re being honest probably.
That only holds up if they depreciate wildly, which they don't.
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I agree with this that depreciation is the key. For me owning a van is more of a cashflow thing rather than the cost. First van i bought for £5000 and sold after 3 years for £4500 (yes it was vintage!). It had some servicing and insurance costs as well however it did us 3 family holidays around Scotland for 10+ days each year and various other weekends based upon this i actually believe it has been decent value. We have now upgraded to a newer van that costs considerably more, this was designed and built to our specificfication by a family friend at very good rates (setting up a conversion business and wanted to build up their portfolio) and could probably be sold for more than it cost us to build (a very fortunate situation that we were lucky enough to be able to take advantage of), again this is purely a cash flow thing for us and with current intrest rates i have no issue having the van on the drive instead of cash in the bank. If you do not have the cashflow then i fully agree that the £10/20/30k (delete as appropraite) is a lot of accomodation fees, I woudl say though that you lose out on the ability to be flexible with weather/dates and for us and our situation with a busy family life this is invaluable to us actually getting into the outdoors regularly.
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Paul - could your view be biased by having had two very positive experiences selling on vans (one in the US after a road trip)?
On the flip side I know several people who’ve bought vans and either had no end of trouble with them before they died, or spent a lot of time and money converting before selling on at considerable loss.
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Paul - could your view be biased by having had two very positive experiences selling on vans (one in the US after a road trip)?
On the flip side I know several people who’ve bought vans and either had no end of trouble with them before they died, or spent a lot of time and money converting before selling on at considerable loss.
And presumably doing some work on them yourself because you're handy/mechanically minded?
I've had one small van which I enjoyed having but it cost me a fortune mechanically. Obviously no way of knowing if another car would have been better but it would have struggled to be worse! It probabaly paid for itself because i had a 3 month trip to Spain in it. theres no way it would have been worth it if I'd only done UK trips I don't think. But it was fun having it.
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Jwi’s numbers are based on his circumstances so make sense to him, not the UK certainly.
Right now it is a moot point as there is no way to get a camper in and out of Barcelona on weekdays between 7am and 8pm without risking hefty fines for driving a poluting car. (It seems like a lof our neighbours with their big SUVs just pay the fines) But generally in bigger cities in much of continental europe you have to pay for parking, it is not provided for by the taxpayers.
If vans did not depreciate in value you would be able to rent them or lease them for free as surely the rental company would be able to sell them on without losses after a few years. However the opposite seems to be true. I looked into van rental just to make sure that my calculations were reasonable, and lo-and-behold! the rental companies seem to have quite a lot of costs owning vans compared to other expensive cars.
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Urban and rural populations have very different costs of living and constraints on property ownership. I live in the countryside with offroad parking. I don't need to, and have zero desire to, live in a town or city. If I did live in an urban area my outlook on vehicle expenses would be more in line with jwi's.
Also 2 different types of van being discussed here - the cheaper, tatty, 10+yrs old van and the pricier, plusher, ~5yrs old or less van.
Former: relatively pricey to run and maintain, higher depreciation, possibly a false economy (being outside the sweetspot of a throwaway cheap banger)
The latter: cheaper to run and maintain, better depreciation (at the moment).
I have a 2017 medium van with a decent conversion, bought in 2020 for £13750, I could sell it now for not much less. Not outrageous cost to run, it has decent mpg compared to older vans, I use it as my only vehicle. Still pricier than only having a cheap small car, but owning it allows me the flexibility to go wherever I want, whenever I want, and not need to book accom. Which (to me) is worth a lot in non-monetary terms (plus a bit in monetary terms).
The error for me is 'rationality = numbers on a spreadsheet'. The numbers on the spreadsheet still have to be sensible within reason, but within reason doesn't equal 'the most efficient method purely on cost'. To me rationality = happiness, flexibility, owning things I like owning, affordable. But the numbers are totally different for me in rural Wales than for jwi in a city.
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Yeah, having a van is surely mostly about flexibility of accommodation rather than anything else. In my experience booking cheap places to stay at short-notice in popular climbing areas can be quite tricky at the wrong time of year... and if you book a cheap long stay you're locked in if the weather turns. Financially it surely depends a chunk on where you are going as well as where you live - in some areas I get the impression it's now hard to get away without staying in a campsite.
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Yep, we had too many terrible nights' sleep in crap expensive bnbs on weekends away as they were the only thing available near the remote spots where we wanted to climb / surf / ski / winter climb / mtb before getting a van. We bought it new and paid for a conversion and it's been pretty reliable and inexpensive to run for the last 17 years, although we have just had an inevitable jump in repair bills. And thenew LEZ is going to make getting to the beach to surf an annoyance (going from 20 minutes drive to about 30) but not enough to bin it.
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I've had four small/medium vans, which I've bought for <£4k and spent ~£1k converting myself (nothing fancy - insulation and carpeting, bed and storage, LED lights and gas stove, comfy enough). All already fairly old for that cost obviously, and it's hard to know whether it would have been cheaper in the long run to buy a newer van (probably, but I couldn't afford it). Has always been my only vehicle and I've spent on average probably 60-80 nights in it per year, between work and personal trips. Just one example obviously, but in my circumstances vanning is definitely the cheap and adaptable way to go climbing somewhere (short of going totally shoestring and hitching with a tent).
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I suspect this will get me hated but...... I'm always puzzled by how all these various infringements (stashing pads, music, lamping etc) are viewed so harshly whilst dogs at climbing venues seem to be beyond reproach.
There is very good evidence of the impact of dogs on many types of wildlife (even when on lead). In Taiwan dogs are excluded from 20% of the Island so as to protect wildlife.
No everyone loves having their lunch slobbered over etc either.
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I suspect this will get me hated but...... I'm always puzzled by how all these various infringements (stashing pads, music, lamping etc) are viewed so harshly whilst dogs at climbing venues seem to be beyond reproach.
There is very good evidence of the impact of dogs on many types of wildlife (even when on lead). In Taiwan dogs are excluded from 20% of the Island so as to protect wildlife.
No everyone loves having their lunch slobbered over etc either.
I think that's very far from the truth. There are loads of crags dogs aren't allowed (moorland crags etc) and there are numerous threads detailing and moaning about shit dog behaviour at crags and rightly so.
Not sure what you're advocating for wrt dogs and nature, banning them from national parks? Unless you're just bored and fishing, in which case congratulations on the bite! :fishing:
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Sorry I was unaware of the previous threads grumping about dogs.
I guess I just want to express my relative personal tolerance of lamping, pad stashing, music etc and intolerance of dogs at crags and nature reserves etc.
I realise that is a minority view.
Dogs that just quietly sit next to their owners are fine at crags though (so long as not in nature reserves).
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If vans did not depreciate in value you would be able to rent them or lease them for free as surely the rental company would be able to sell them on without losses after a few years. However the opposite seems to be true. I looked into van rental just to make sure that my calculations were reasonable, and lo-and-behold! the rental companies seem to have quite a lot of costs owning vans compared to other expensive cars.
I think we're perhaps talking at odds here; try buying a T4-6 side conversion with a pop top in the UK. They command and retain strong money.
Paul - could your view be biased by having had two very positive experiences selling on vans (one in the US after a road trip)?
And presumably doing some work on them yourself because you're handy/mechanically minded?
I did very little work to the T4, in fact I sourced it and left within a week I believe. The owner used it to go to Le Mans every year (and they were leaving the UK to work in Thailand so were selling everything they owned) and apart from having done a terrible job of insulating it (as he had a 240v hookup) it needed very little. What I did was remove what I could of the conversion and insulate where possible. I did have mechanical issues on the trip which related to an undersized battery and two failed CV joints, but it'd done something like 140k miles. You'd have those kinds of issues on any vehicle of that age/mileage IMO.
For the Ford, I converted it in the parking area of an Ikea/hardware store, and it was 'rudimentary' at best. I'd like to think the reason I didn't lose out here is because (as with everything) I planned very carefully. I was massively burnt out at the end of that trip BTW and it's taken several years to look back on a lot of the experiences (which included an awful lot of failure) positively.
I forgot a third one which perhaps does fall into the category of losing out. I bought a Caddy after the T4 as Nat got sick of commuting (Sheff > Leeds) with a kitchen rattling in the background. I converted it and lived in it for 3 months with what looked like a very OEM finish but didn't love the van itself (too small for my liking for UK weather where relying on 'outside' as being an extension of your living space is optimistic) and it had the issue with the DMF so I decided to sell.
I have a 2017 medium van with a decent conversion, bought in 2020 for £13750, I could sell it now for not much less. Not outrageous cost to run, it has decent mpg compared to older vans, I use it as my only vehicle. Still pricier than only having a cheap small car, but owning it allows me the flexibility to go wherever I want, whenever I want, and not need to book accom. Which (to me) is worth a lot in non-monetary terms (plus a bit in monetary terms).
The error for me is 'rationality = numbers on a spreadsheet'. The numbers on the spreadsheet still have to be sensible within reason, but within reason doesn't equal 'the most efficient method purely on cost'. To me rationality = happiness, flexibility, owning things I like owning, affordable. But the numbers are totally different for me in rural Wales than for jwi in a city.
This.
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no poor and rational person stays in a van. I've done the math more than once. It's always cheaper to stay in budget hotels the first 100 days per year.
This is a questionable comparison.
Firstly, 100 nights in a hotel - how much are you calculating van expenses to be?!
Secondly, where's the nearest budget hotel with availability when you decide you want to go to a craggy place on a whim?
(not disagreeing with the general point that contemporary #vanlife has f*** all to do with living cheaply)
More a reply to the thread in general than you specifically Andy but, in my experience, a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms. The post -pandemic boom in van prices has only encouraged this, like boomers congratulating themselves on their financial acumen rather than acknowledging how lucky they got with property price inflation since the 1970s.
I am aware, and I’m sure jwi is too, that vanomics evaluations should include a benefit side of the equation and, for most, are not just an exercise in cost minimisation. For some, waking up in the middle of The Forest / next to Wast water / in the Siurana car park (?) counts as a benefit. Personally, I’d pay extra to sleep in a real bed and have a proper kitchen so I’m delighted that the numbers support my choice!
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...
a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms. The post -pandemic boom in van prices has only encouraged this, like boomers congratulating themselves on their financial acumen rather than acknowledging how lucky they got with property price inflation since the 1970s.
No doubt - people are wise in hindsight. But you can only play with the hand you're dealt and the numbers are what they are. You'd be as incorrect to make a case that desirable campervans currently suffer high depreciation (they don't), as you'd be to make a case that house prices haven't inflated versus earnings (they have). The reasons for, and predictability of, the numbers is a different matter!
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I was interested in this tread because of whatever it was about originally which I can’t really work out. But it sounds like whatever it is isn’t going to stop me and the kids having a look at La Nuit in 3 weeks time?
Re the van thing. I have a friend who tried to argue the financial argument after spending £55,000 on a VW California.
The idea of a van is very attractive for climbing in the UK though. I’ve largely given up doing camping weekends away from the SE because it’s so much faff, but every time we look at Airbnbs, etc for a couple of nights in N Wales, Yorkshire, etc it’s always insanely expensive.
For anything longer than a couple of days it rapidly becomes far cheaper to go to Font.
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More a reply to the thread in general than you specifically Andy but, in my experience, a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms. The post -pandemic boom in van prices has only encouraged this, like boomers congratulating themselves on their financial acumen rather than acknowledging how lucky they got with property price inflation since the 1970s.
Confirmation bias runs strong here too.
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I’ve had 2 vans. One was about a grand and I spent a few hundred on a shitty bed and battery. We used it loads and it was well worth it. Never had any major problems with it.
Current van is way way more expensive. We used it for a 9 month trip so it was worth getting something we wanted and would be happy with. Now it isn’t getting used much, but we have had a lot of experiences which we wouldn’t have had without the van.
Even little things like a day at the beach last weekend. Being able to be comfy, have everything you need and having it all ready to go makes us do more than we would without it.
It wouldn’t be worth it financially right now, but it’s a great thing to have in our current financial situation. I wouldn’t sell it anytime soon and I would rather have that money in a depreciating asset that I can enjoy rather than paying a bit less on my mortgage each month.
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More a reply to the thread in general than you specifically Andy but, in my experience, a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms.
I wouldn't rationalise it in purely financial terms myself - it's something which allows me to have a certain lifestyle affordably. It facilitates a pretty good balance between my wants and my budget.
For several months one year I had a car instead of a van. I never calculated how much the accommodation costs offset the fuel savings, but it was a pain in the arse.
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I 100% have a van for the convenience of going climbing where the weather is best at more or less the drop of a hat. I actually am coming round to the thought that people travelling around in vans is pretty sub-optimal, especially/because of the numbers involved.
However, it makes weekend warrioring really simple, you find a partner with similar climbing interests, you look at the weather forecast on Monday, Tuesday. Wednesday and approx. 6 times on Thursday, choose where you are going Thursday night. On Friday at lunchtime you check again and it’s all gone to shit so you decide at 3pm Friday to go in the opposite direction.
So careless! So free!
*This is meant to be funny but is not a joke.
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I 100% have a van for the convenience of going climbing where the weather is best at more or less the drop of a hat. I actually am coming round to the thought that people travelling around in vans is pretty sub-optimal, especially/because of the numbers involved.
However, it makes weekend warrioring really simple, you find a partner with similar climbing interests, you look at the weather forecast on Monday, Tuesday. Wednesday and approx. 6 times on Thursday, choose where you are going Thursday night. On Friday at lunchtime you check again and it’s all gone to shit so you decide at 3pm Friday to go in the opposite direction.
So careless! So free!
*This is meant to be funny but is not a joke.
Pretty close to the bone, that! :whistle:
I think the impacts are underappreciated by climbers, especially as we tend to be a reasonably eco friendly bunch. A load of massive diesels smashing around all the time is clearly suboptimal. Don't even get me started on keeping the engine on to run the heaters!
I also think it does have an impact at the sites where we visit, most obviously in terms of parking. It goes without saying that parking few big LWB vans at eg Kilnsey, or in the village at Malham, means fewer other people, climbers and non climbers, can fit in there. Same would apply at eg Burbage bridge, although there's not such a shortage of parking there I guess.
That's come across as a bit of a slagging of van owners, which wasn't my intention and is obviously hypocritical as I owned one myself until last year (a small one!). But I have been uneasy about the number of vans at climbing spots for a while now.
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Could be worse, you could be flying to Southern Europe 4 or 5 times a year to clip bolts.
My weekend travel is offset by commuting 4 miles to work no more than twice a week! :)
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I’ve never owned a van, but spent a lot of time cragging round France in one previously. Vans provide the freedom to go and stay wherever you like, whenever you like. Switch off the ignition, you’re at home in Céüse / Margalef / Ogwen / wherever. The freedom and convenience have got to be a big draw.