UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: i_a_coops on February 02, 2014, 06:13:40 pm
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Familiar story: I got a broken kneecap, I don't want to get pumped after three moves when I can climb properly again.
I just joined a gym and experimented doing four sets of 20 or 30 reps of 25-30kg on each arm on a lat pull down machine to try and simulate a jug haul route (my next trip abroad will be to Rodellar :)).
Doing that holding the handle like a second joint minijug got me pretty pumped but felt like if I did it regularly I would fry my elbows beyond all belief. Does that mean my form is bad or is it just the repetitive nature of the exercise?
Any advice for maintaining climbing-relevant stamina in a gym without cooking my elbows?
(I have been advised to electrocute my forearms for this purpose but I don't have access to an electro-zappy machine and instinctively feel that it's too much Ivan Drago and not enough Rocky... :boxing:).
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I don't know shit, hell I can't even weigh myself properly, but I can't imagine how lat pull-downs would simulate hauling jugs.
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uh, looks like I didn't actually know what a lat pull down is. There's a machine which is basically a pulley with a handle for one hand that you pull down. i've been sitting down and pulling down on it with one hand. Feels exactly like doing a one arm pullup with assistance....
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Any benefits you'll get from machines in the gym will be minimal (especially with regards to climbing, but also in general). Machines work muscle groups in isolation, whereas any natural movement will involve multiple groups simultaneously, and as such there is generally not a whole lot of point in using them for training purposes.
Do you have a fingerboard? If not, now is as good a time as any to invest in one.
Some motivation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REtTkCllKQw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REtTkCllKQw)
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Eva Lopez has about 6 gym sets that might help but as others say probably not so close to climbing it will really maintain. Add in a fingerboard and it's probably as good as you can get ... Although others may have better advice.
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Not the gym but something like multi-minute repeater sets could work. They got me my fittest ever for rp'ing routes, but then I was aiming for 4 min routes not spanish stamina fests.
Elbows got sore doing pull-ups/locks during the sets so I wound up separating the arm and finger work.
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1) Stand underneath fingerboard and grab some holds
2a) If knee allows move feet forwards a bit until weight comes on holds
2b) If knee does not rig up counterweight so most of weight is through a harness
3) Move your hands round the fingerboard for ten minutes, getting mildly pumped
4) Rest for ten minutes
5) Repeat
By the end of this you'll be able to recover on Rodellar jugs, and your boredom threshold will have improved immensely.
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What Stu said.
I find high rep stuff like doing lots of pullups or pull-ins on undercuts is highly aggravating for my elbows, more so than doing max difficulty stuff.
If you make yourself a pinch to hang weights off you might be able to use that to do some repeater style workouts whilst sat in a chair, useful for Rodellar as there's a decent amount of tufas there too.
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Thanks for the advice everyone. I will see how long I can maintain psyche to capillarise on two campus rungs with my feet on the ground! 2 sessions down so far....
Iain, any chance of more details of your multi minute repeater routine? Thanks!
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(my next trip abroad will be to Rodellar :)).
We gonna book this thing then?
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Does this mean you'll have to go easy on the kneebars? :lol:
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Yeah without my knees I'm gonna be screwed. Unless there are routes with footless sideways dynos:
Training with a broken leg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM3XjyEK7B0#ws)
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Not exactly kneecap, but there might be some exercises you can use:
Courtney Sanders - Training While Injured (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REtTkCllKQw#ws)
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I can't believe thats on the internet, Ian. Looks nothing like a basement ;) Hope you make a quick recovery!
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Yeah without my knees I'm gonna be screwed. Unless there are routes with footless sideways dynos:
Training with a broken leg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM3XjyEK7B0#ws)
The worst thing I did for my leg when recovering was to drop onto it from a very small height (think a controlled 1-arm negative). Be careful. I spent the next hour sat in the middle of the Works car park unable to stand due to fear of passing out. I think it knocked me back at least a month if not 6 weeks.
:badidea:
Watching that video (Courtney Sanders) I wonder how many people in the US have 'trainers' for climbing and what exactly they're selling (I see more and more people selling advice in the UK and I'm not wholly sold most of the advice is solid or based on anything real)?
I also see a lot of TRX / Kettlebell in this tren/the video (which are currently both fashionable) but the knee in and out exercises being good because "you cut a lot".... really?
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I see exactly 1 exercise with the kettleball Paul. And to me, it seems that these people with a physical trainer, in the usa or elsewhere are crushing way harder than you.
For myself, I don't have one, but I do have a trainer for climbing who makes a planning for every 6 weeks, and follows up and I must say, I have improved alot since. He makes sure I 'm getting enough new fresh stimuli, so I don't get to plateau as much as before.
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. And to me, it seems that these people with a physical trainer, in the usa or elsewhere are crushing way harder than you.
That seems like a strange statement. There are a bunch of people with coaches who crush way harder than Paul, but there are plenty more who are shit. In particular, I bet most of the people who pay 'team of 2' money are not great, they just use people like woods as good advertising - he ain't there average client.
If we're talking about straight up trainers not climbing coaches then I'd bet the average grade of person employing them is low and most are wasting their money
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:agree:
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But this physical trainer is coaching top athletes e.g. Daniel Woods & Courtney Sanders. I assume they are not training to suck ...
Emily Harrington training with Trainer Kris Peters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11Ifrvx64S0#ws)
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But this physical trainer is coaching top athletes e.g. Daniel Woods & Courtney Sanders. I assume they are not training to suck ...
Indeed not. But I am going to guess that they didn't suck when he started training them. I think i tend to more agree with Paul in that a lot of these exercises are likely to have a minimal benefit to climbing and are probably mainly useful to those already maintaining a high volume of training and performance to stave off boredom, and hopefully pay off in terms of some incremental gains. Surely the vast majority are better served by a relatively simple recipe of climbing to train if you can, and hang off some shit holds if you can't.
For what it's worth, last year i couldn't climb for 3 months, 6 weeks in a gym seemed to make no difference at all; 3 weeks of fingerboarding seemed very effective indeed.
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Is he training them or are they doing promo work to make a video which helps both parties? Given how much someone like Woods if off tripping, I doubt he actually spends that much time with any trainer/coach. In addition, I bet they get their sessions free as it's a good advert (as you've just shown) - of course you'll take a session with someone if it's free even if it's just for interest.
There's an argument that having a trainer helps you push harder, and that in itself is enough/worth it, and that anything which gets you to mix things up differently will probably be useful, but I'm with Paul on the fact that there are lots of 'coaches' or 'trainers' who I wouldn't trust at all.
. And to me, it seems that these people with a physical trainer, in the usa or elsewhere are crushing way harder than you.
That seems like a moot point. Irrespective of how hard Paul climbs (and he was quite good in the distant past ;) ) his point about what the trainers are actually selling and whether there are climbing coaches who are clueless is valid. Team of 2 vids are presumably what inspired his point, but I think the point was more general. Like I said, plenty of people will train with a coach/trainer. Some of those people will be very strong. Most wont. So "these people" aren't really crushing super hard, just a small proportion of them are.
A slight aside: I've had a few interesting conversations with Bolger about the rep of some of the Spanish coaches who seem to adhere to a Chinese gymnastics approach - take 100 people, throw a relentless training program at them, make them diet hard. Most will break, those that don't will be machines.
I think i tend to more agree with Paul in that a lot of these exercises are likely to have a minimal benefit to climbing and are probably mainly useful to those already maintaining a high volume of training and performance to stave off boredom, and hopefully pay off in terms of some incremental gains. Surely the vast majority are better served by a relatively simple recipe of climbing to train if you can, and hang off some shit holds if you can't.
+1. When I first read Dave Mac's 9 out of 10 book I didn't like it that much because it wasn't what I was expecting, but retrospectively I'm more and more convinced that for 90% of climbers it really is the best advice.
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- he ain't there average client.
:wall: predictive text bollocks. :oops:
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Iain, any chance of more details of your multi minute repeater routine? Thanks!
Repeaters for 3-5 minutes but only 5 reps per minute, partly because I made the intensity too hard for doing it non-stop but also because I figured the break was like clipping/chalking/shaking anyway. I varied the hangs between 6/4, 7/3, 8/3 and used weights/pulley to play with intensity. I only ever did 3 sets with lots of rest between, 4 sets felt too much for form/shoulders for me. Warmed up by doing 2/3 minutes sets on jugs till gentle pump and some recruitment hangs.
Initially I messed around with different hold types but settled on half crimp only because it was the easiest to make sure the workouts were consistent and not conditions/skin dependent, and adding weight rather than going smaller than 1st joint to be kinder to my injury prone fingers.
I definitely felt the benefit on the routes, both in what I could do but also more volume and faster recovery. A good wall would have been better but I didn't have one.
Comments/suggestions/bullshit calling on the above welcome.
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But this physical trainer is coaching top athletes e.g. Daniel Woods & Courtney Sanders. I assume they are not training to suck ...
Indeed not. But I am going to guess that they didn't suck when he started training them. I think i tend to more agree with Paul in that a lot of these exercises are likely to have a minimal benefit to climbing and are probably mainly useful to those already maintaining a high volume of training and performance to stave off boredom, and hopefully pay off in terms of some incremental gains. Surely the vast majority are better served by a relatively simple recipe of climbing to train if you can, and hang off some shit holds if you can't.
For what it's worth, last year i couldn't climb for 3 months, 6 weeks in a gym seemed to make no difference at all; 3 weeks of fingerboarding seemed very effective indeed.
While I would agree that a long term trainer/coach is probably a waste of money for 90% of the public, I would have thought the exercises would still be legit. Under the caveat that enough climbing for training to climb for improvement is done.
For example; Lets say for example MrX and MsY both want to climb some hench gaskin body tension grimness.
They both have the time and drive to do the problem and are at a level where the climb may be achievable, but they both have weak core muscles. MrX just climbs through the wet gritstone season on some greasy slabs and scrittley slopers. MsY on the other hand hires a coach for an hour, to learn a good core workout session. She then mixes this core workout with good periodisation and loads of goal-oriented climbing as well as some fun scrittley nonsense. They both end up with the same hours of climbing done.
Which one do you think will be more likely to have developed the core strength they needed for when Woodwell dries up?
Would you have thought that there could be a difference between training the muscle and training the nervous system to use the muscle?
Although doing lateral pull-downs, bicep curls and various other exercises 'gym' may not be seen to directly replace climbing as training; surely if the strength/endurance factors are there, training to use the muscles together is in the central nervous system and therefore may be achievable fairly quickly, once the subject can apply the climbing specific training again.
I would have suggested you do what you can at the gym and on a finger board during this injury time. Be slow and sensible about the uptake, specially with fingerboard exercises if you are not used to those.
When you have recovered enough to climb, climb slowly and sensibly through recovery. Surely the brain/nervous system will learn the moves again and you should be on your way to being back on top.
I will attempt to find evidence to back this up over the week.
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So your point is that grit is crap training? We all knew that already.The comparison is that Mr x is training hard on a steep board with shit feet and bouldering at Rubicon, anston etc. Of course doing as much as your body can take and recover from is good, the point is that for most people most of that time will be spent doing things more useful than those exercises, tho they can be an optional extra for those days where at the end of your session your arms are fucked but your core still fresh
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Here SEDur I think this is yours
(http://www.fotoblography.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/straw-man-740x550.jpg)
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;D
I have the impression that once you plateau at a certain level (e.g. 7b) by climbing 4 times, a week, local training of some muscle groups, may benefit some people. Then these physical trainers can be a very good consult for good form. If I look a these crossfit bad form atitudes, these are asking for injuries.
I did not plateau yet by just climbing alot, so I don't do much additional exercises apart from some antagonist training and sloper deadhangs.
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I think most people take supplementary training out of context. Doing weights, core, trx, rings, etc, etc is not supposed to make you stronger or better than me it's supposed to make you stronger or better than you, than you would be without doing them.
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I think most people take supplementary training out of context. Doing weights, core, trx, rings, etc, etc is not supposed to make you stronger or better than me it's supposed to make you stronger or better than you, than you would be without doing them.
Yes
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I see exactly 1 exercise with the kettleball Paul. And to me, it seems that these people with a physical trainer, in the usa or elsewhere are crushing way harder than you.
And more than 1 with a TRX, knees-up, archer rows etc.? Did this post / I touch a nerve?
The strike of the lone mustard seed (which is rolling around somewhere in my keyboard) prevented my OP from saying "trend" too. I'm avoiding commenting on the latter half of your post other than to say it doesn't help your argument, but if you'd like to go down the road of character assassination then feel free; I'm a distinctly average climber who spent a large proportion of the past year pulling on gear.
What I'm seeing (in the UK) is that various people are offering coaching services, many of whom push these supplementary forms of exercise (filtered down from various videos as above) whether or not they're relevant at all (even if we concede the point of my lonely friend).
The reasons I picked fault with that exercise in the video in particular is the terrible reasoning given (which is becoming familiar). The motion of 'cutting' and the one of pulling your knees to your abdomen aren't similar.
On an aside I've found supplementary exercises to be useful in the past. Rings helped stabilise my shoulders that felt dangerously close to exploding, that said I'm unsure whether improving my L-sit ability (you remember Dense) on the rings had any crossover to climbing whatsoever.
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Adding to this whole thing is what place do they have in your overalltrainig/climbing program. I'd bet based on timing and the conversations they had that the D Wood training was his equivilant of "topping off" or off season type strength training.
I think this idea and weights/strength training could be useful for most climbers. It's all about when where. I do a 6-8 week period in the early winter(Nov-Dec) where I drastically reduce my climbing and do overall body strength training. Then I try to do once a week or once every two weeks maintenence sessions. Usually in late April/May I'll do another 3-4 week session or climbing specific strength training (Deadlifts, Heavy Core, Wtd pullups, Etc.). This session is designed to re-topoff my overall body strength. It also seems to help with injury prevention for me. All of this is based around enough climbing that his can be helpful. If I didn't have time/motivation to get the climbing volume in, then I wouldn't be doing the weights....
Back to the OP, What Stu said.
And get creative as the boredom sets in. Watch some TV or a movie and treat it like a drinking game every time that say a certain word/do a certain thing/etc. you have to do a pullup/hard hold/etc. You'de be surprised how quickly you can get to 10-20minutes doing this with the right words/shows.
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I definitely agree fingerboarding should take priority over the gym. In any case, if I do both then the worst case scenario is that fingerboarding stops me building up loads of scar tissue in my joints and I end up ripped like Arnie.
I remember reading something ages ago about working small muscle groups (e.g. on a fingerboard) being more effective if you also work big muscle groups in the same session (like, maybe, pressups & pullups. Is that total bullshit or worth thinking about?
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I will attempt to find evidence to back this up over the week.
Mr X wants to climb Gaskins' limestone problem and and trains on grit slabs.
Ms y has the same goal but does something physically arduous .
:lol: I like it...I bet the evidence is out there.
To the Op. The big muscle group comment might relate to testosterone procution which is implicated in hypertrophy but will be low when small muscles only are used...as bodybuilders know, if you want big guns, train your legs too.
IOf you can't climb doing something to stay in nick is going to be mentally and to some extent physically beneficial. But the closer to climbing, with its specific strengths and movements the better. I guess that's a fingerboard. The other exercises might help all-round health too.
Now i'm off to the board for 40 mins max (cos of golfer's) followed by a boring hour on the treadmill and a swim. it's not like properly climbing though, but that's obvious.
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Good to see this rolling on :lets_do_it_wild: (got my first negative karma), and yeah Paul, I was drunk :bounce:
IMHO, if you stop climbing every two months and only do some silly pushups for a week or two, it will make you stronger. I am not sure but there is this outrageous concepts of max supercompensation and :strongbench:, it might get you strong ... :jab:
But anyway it's funny how we get so intimate about these things ;D