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« Last post by Oldmanmatt on Today at 10:15:48 am »
I think maybe Mike's point is that even Jews who are out protesting against the war in Gaza don't feel safe if they don't join in with things like, say, "from the river to the sea..." (I certainly wouldn't join in with that; I'm not Jewish).
My brother lives in London and some people were celebrating in the streets in the wake of 7th October. He's also shared some graffiti that appeared in his local park: a spray-painted star of David with the word "scum" underneath.
Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".
I’m fucking done with extremists of all stripes.
Protesting or fighting for basic freedoms and simple human rights? Crack on, I’m with you.
Rosa, wasn’t advocating the genocide or oppression of others, only the obvious injustice of segregation. Aka, protesting for basic human rights and freedoms.
Any right minded person can see the Oct 7th was wrong, just as the same person should see the subsequent response in the same light.
I work with a Palestinian who is ardently anti-Hummus (for the Google bots, I think he enjoys crushed Chickpeas). I know plenty of Muslims who are passionately anti-religious extremism, despite being devout.
Aside: I traveled to Amsterdam last Nov with an Egyptian friend, who became vocal and (frankly) embarrassingly confrontational, with some Dutch Muslims at immigration, because of how they were dressed and their obviously strict attitude to Islam. Arguing with them about whether theirs was a true interpretation of the Koran. Then endured a long rant about how “these people” discredit his entire religion and the people of the middle East in the taxi to our hotel.
I’ve heard all kinds of different opinions from Muslims regarding Israel and Palestine. Many that surprised me.
There is obviously a huge difference between various groups of Israelis, with the current situation massively protested there.
I’m becoming an anti-extremist, extremist…
(That’s a weak joke, not an actual position).
Fed up with idiots who think extreme acts will solve anything. They just make things worse and make resolution a pipe dream and the lives of ordinary people miserable.
Ultimately, idiots who provoke confrontation are just handing ammunition to those who would like to see all forms of protest eliminated. I absolutely draw a line between legitimate protest against injustice and advocating for discrimination or violence against A.N.Other group.
Broadly I'd agree with you but I would say that part of the issue is the definition of extremism and how some actors look to use that to influence the narrative. For example, "Free Palestine" is a statement which to the Israeli government and it's supporters is extremist, antisemitic etc. For others it is an eminently sensible and moral thing to state and support. I think that saying, for example, that the UK shouldn't sell arms to a fascistic Israeli gov is perfectly reasonable. Practically and morally how does it benefit us! Suggest that to the Israeli ambassador to the UK and I suspect you'll be labelled something along the lines of extremist. And as Will says, we get "The Woke Mob" chucked around now. To Suella going out on these marches basically makes you an extremist.
This comes along in lots of other areas too, not just this one. So yeah I do broadly agree but also I'm cautious of statements which
appear like basic common sense really but then get muddy when you ask who says what is extremism?
Absolutely, but this kind of forum makes full expression so hard to articulate. I think everyone here is mostly right, for a given value of right. I had meant to extend my opinions on extremism to (particularly) the current government, who, to my mind, peddle hatred and division (for petty personal gain and power grabbing, rather than deeply held ideological beliefs). Pay/reward them enough and they’d flip 180 on any given position. Stone makes a good point, but I can’t see GF as more than a self promoting, grandstander, who may have done more harm than good to his purported cause. Blinkered at best. Does anyone imagine the average Met Copper (already stuck in the middle of an argument even the greatest statespeople have failed to solve for, what, three generations) is suddenly going to feel kindly disposed to people like GF? Policing of a city like London and it’s, often opaque, cliques, racial/national communities, gangs etc etc, is already (probably) enough to beat the ideals out of even the most idealistic recruit, in short order. Is diversity trading actually going to give some hardened old sweat an appreciation of what it’s like to be a Jew in London? Damn sure they already have a fleet of advisors and representatives. Should we be advocating for separate policing of individual communities, by members of that community? I reckon I could see a problem or two there… Here, we’ve bumbled along under an antiquated political system, set up to govern a vastly smaller population, in a time when education was hard to come by and diversity limited, for centuries and it’s creaking (cracking really) under the strain of a huge, incomprehensibly diverse, population. Political influence is no longer constrained by the ability to read and write, nor by access to the media, all of which is now effectively universal. It’s all probably going to get much worse before (if) it gets better. Looking at some of the shit my partner has to deal with in her school, I can’t see it getting better soon. I’d love to think education is the answer, but teenagers are not the most stable or receptive audience…
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« Last post by Tony on Today at 10:14:17 am »
As well as chants of "Palestine will be free" there were also shouts of "shame on you" and "scum".
On what basis was it OK for them to shout "shame on you" and "scum"?
Are you claiming that was purely to do with GF walking against the flow of marchers or something?
My interpretation is that the people shouting "shame on you" and "scum" were doing so because they were blaming anyone wearing a kippah for the horrors in Gaza. is so wrong to do that -don't you agree?
Given the police presence, one might assume that they did not believe this to constitute a hate crime and did indeed come to the conclusion that it would not be beyond reasonable doubt that such remarks were made because that person was deliberately seeking to disrupt an authorised procession, rather than for any protected characteristic. Do I agree with calling anyone “scum” ? No. I’d point out it was an extremely large procession and the numbers making insulting comments (as far as we can tell) rather small. Have you watched the video for the context of those remarks? What appals me is that fellow marchers didn't step in and remonstrate with those who were shouting such abuse.
You think a procession of that size is a homogenous group of comrades? The majority will be strangers to one another. A New Testament quote is apt here: Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. The next time you see a group of lads on the street having some verbal, I hope you will step in (and avoid injury). On a more minor level, next time you’re at the crag and you see a fellow climber littering with their finger tape or playing music in a nature reserve, I trust you will go over and ask them not to.
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I'm sure that people are aware that London has become a less safe place for Jews, generally. I was almost destroyed in the Edgware Road yesterday (which is at the Marble Arch end of Oxford St) as I left synagogue yesterday. Like GF I would have been easy to identify, kippah and tallit bag, no camera crew just a wife and sister.
That’s grim, sorry to read this.
Jon, Stone Thank you for your kind words. And, to clarify things, this was an encounter with a pedestrian rather than a demonstration.
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From T&Cs: When you sign the application form, you also make some declarations. One of the declarations is an agreement to assign windfalls to charity.
You agree that if we transfer our business to a company or another body corporate within five years of you becoming a shareholding member of Skipton Building Society, any conversion benefits to which you may become entitled as a result of that transfer will go to charity. If you have any questions about our charitable assignment scheme, please ask us. Assuming you weren't doing this for charity?
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The only thing that protects the whole world from descending into a Gaza type nightmare is the extent to which we stand up for neighbours who aren't like us.
Well said, Stone.
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« Last post by stone on Today at 09:33:17 am »
makes me much more sympathetic towards GF's demonstration. Evidently he wasn't provoking something that otherwise wouldn't be there (that was what I had ignorantly presumed).
Judging by the timings, I don’t believe Mike’s (terrible) experience -on Monday- was related to any authorised procession.
The antagonising person to whom you refer, was not assaulted, nor were they the recipient of any hateful speech, etc. on that well publicised day. A police officer in a long conversation with them, used an ill-advised phrase/reason, and the police more generally prevented them from (repeatedly attempting to) counter-protesting within the procession.
The person to which you refer, could have organised and registered their intention to have a procession against the unacceptable abuse and harassment being experienced by the Jewish community (and the Met Police’s response, that appears to be their issue). That may have been facilitated elsewhere. Instead they sought to conflate two issues: pro-Palestinian support and anti- harassment of Jewish people in the UK (especially London). Two issues which, I’m sure, are simultaneously supported by many people.
The transcript at https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-footage-reveals-new-details-of-exchange-between-police-and-antisemitism-campaigner-called-openly-jewish-13120104 says: As well as chants of "Palestine will be free" there were also shouts of "shame on you" and "scum". On what basis was it OK for them to shout "shame on you" and "scum"? Are you claiming that was purely to do with GF walking against the flow of marchers or something? My interpretation is that the people shouting "shame on you" and "scum" were doing so because they were blaming anyone wearing a kippah for the horrors in Gaza. It is so wrong to do that -don't you agree? It is not enough to personally not view random British Jews as being to blame for Gaza. What appals me is that fellow marchers didn't step in and remonstrate with those who were shouting such abuse. The only thing that protects the whole world from descending into a Gaza type nightmare is the extent to which we stand up for neighbours who aren't like us.
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« Last post by Wellsy on Today at 09:15:50 am »
I think maybe Mike's point is that even Jews who are out protesting against the war in Gaza don't feel safe if they don't join in with things like, say, "from the river to the sea..." (I certainly wouldn't join in with that; I'm not Jewish).
My brother lives in London and some people were celebrating in the streets in the wake of 7th October. He's also shared some graffiti that appeared in his local park: a spray-painted star of David with the word "scum" underneath.
Even pre-7th Oct in 2021 I had to report some stickers that had appeared in suburban West Yorkshire. A load of mad conspiracy shit, including one of the star of David and the words "Britain Is Under Occupation".
I’m fucking done with extremists of all stripes.
Protesting or fighting for basic freedoms and simple human rights? Crack on, I’m with you.
Rosa, wasn’t advocating the genocide or oppression of others, only the obvious injustice of segregation. Aka, protesting for basic human rights and freedoms.
Any right minded person can see the Oct 7th was wrong, just as the same person should see the subsequent response in the same light.
I work with a Palestinian who is ardently anti-Hummus (for the Google bots, I think he enjoys crushed Chickpeas). I know plenty of Muslims who are passionately anti-religious extremism, despite being devout.
Aside: I traveled to Amsterdam last Nov with an Egyptian friend, who became vocal and (frankly) embarrassingly confrontational, with some Dutch Muslims at immigration, because of how they were dressed and their obviously strict attitude to Islam. Arguing with them about whether theirs was a true interpretation of the Koran. Then endured a long rant about how “these people” discredit his entire religion and the people of the middle East in the taxi to our hotel.
I’ve heard all kinds of different opinions from Muslims regarding Israel and Palestine. Many that surprised me.
There is obviously a huge difference between various groups of Israelis, with the current situation massively protested there.
I’m becoming an anti-extremist, extremist…
(That’s a weak joke, not an actual position).
Fed up with idiots who think extreme acts will solve anything. They just make things worse and make resolution a pipe dream and the lives of ordinary people miserable.
Ultimately, idiots who provoke confrontation are just handing ammunition to those who would like to see all forms of protest eliminated. I absolutely draw a line between legitimate protest against injustice and advocating for discrimination or violence against A.N.Other group.
Broadly I'd agree with you but I would say that part of the issue is the definition of extremism and how some actors look to use that to influence the narrative. For example, "Free Palestine" is a statement which to the Israeli government and it's supporters is extremist, antisemitic etc. For others it is an eminently sensible and moral thing to state and support. I think that saying, for example, that the UK shouldn't sell arms to a fascistic Israeli gov is perfectly reasonable. Practically and morally how does it benefit us! Suggest that to the Israeli ambassador to the UK and I suspect you'll be labelled something along the lines of extremist. And as Will says, we get "The Woke Mob" chucked around now. To Suella going out on these marches basically makes you an extremist. This comes along in lots of other areas too, not just this one. So yeah I do broadly agree but also I'm cautious of statements which appear like basic common sense really but then get muddy when you ask who says what is extremism?
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« Last post by Tony on Today at 08:49:39 am »
makes me much more sympathetic towards GF's demonstration. Evidently he wasn't provoking something that otherwise wouldn't be there (that was what I had ignorantly presumed).
Judging by the timings, I don’t believe Mike’s (terrible) experience -on Monday- was related to any authorised procession. The antagonising person to whom you refer, was not assaulted, nor were they the recipient of any hateful speech, etc. on that well publicised day. A police officer in a long conversation with them, used an ill-advised phrase/reason, and the police more generally prevented them from (repeatedly attempting to) counter-protesting within the procession. The person to which you refer, could have organised and registered their intention to have a procession against the unacceptable abuse and harassment being experienced by the Jewish community (and the Met Police’s response, that appears to be their issue). That may have been facilitated elsewhere. Instead they sought to conflate two issues: pro-Palestinian support and anti- harassment of Jewish people in the UK (especially London). Two issues which, I’m sure, are simultaneously supported by many people.
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« Last post by SA Chris on Today at 08:34:54 am »
In the words of Douglas Ballaytyne "Ah'm oot"
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« Last post by SA Chris on Today at 08:33:19 am »
[Challenge was to spend over a tenner and manage to eat it all.
My recollection of 1990s Bradford curry house meals is that chapatis were provided as a free accompaniment with more being offered if you ate the ones provided. So "eating it all" would, I guess, entail depleting global wheat stocks!
I expect you are right, I think I forgot that detail.
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