UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Stewart on August 10, 2022, 09:53:32 pm
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Hi folks. Probably been asked before but what are folks thoughts about making genuine strength gains in your 40s?
I'm thinking about signing up to lattice as I've never followed a training program. Mainly just bouldered 3 times a week. But now the only problems I've left to do in D and G are Varians 7c+s and I'm not strong enough. Don't want to spend 24 weeks training for nowt (don't want to spend any time training, hate it! But would stick to it if I pay for it). Is it realistic to expect more than marginal gains.. if that?
Edited to add some specifics
Age 43
Weight 83kg
Started climbing at 32 and (humblebrag) climbed 8A at 36. Was xfit from other sport and addicted quickly. Done a few more 8s since then but def not operating regularly at that level. Def better on probs with big holds/moves as don't think ihave good finger strength. Never routinely fingerboarded, campused or system board but do have a crap board garage of my own. I suspect I may have peaked!
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1. Be light or have the ability to get light.
2. Don't get injured.
I have no idea about the actually possibilities for gainz though. Maybe depends how much effort you've put in previously, and how long you've plateaued?? Trying a more structured / focused plan and seeing what happens seems worth a shot though.
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1. Be light or have the ability to get light.
I do not have this ability :'(
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I've been as good, possibly better, in my mid 40s as previously; but that's a pretty low bar (I only started climbing in my late 20s). As Fiend said, avoiding injury and recent weight / activity levels are probably more important factors than age. There are enough 50+ crushers to suggest that age is less important than psyche / training. Your own response to the stimulus of an organized training programme is a complete unknown - perhaps just get on with it, and if it seems a losing proposition, stop early?
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2. Don't get injured.
I don’t have this ability. which is unfortunate as it’s probably the single most important one to have.
Re strength, I expect you can continue to get a lot stronger, 43 really shouldn’t be a barrier to that. I would see age as something that slows rate of progress and demands more recovery time, not something that prevents progress (unless you’ve been an elite sportsperson since age 8 or something), far from it.
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Sorry, I am not in my 5th decade, but I have done a lot of thinking about the ability to make strength gains as we get older. In elite sports where participants can't trick their way to success with skills and kneebars, the physical decline is usually evident for most from the mid 30's. However, that's in elite sport and one would assume they are/were approaching their genetic potential. For average Joe's, there's plenty of evidence that gains can be made at any age, particularly in the untrained.
Now for possibly a load of bollocks... My hypothesis is that the 'natural limit', 'genetic potential' or whatever you want to call it declines from the early 30's. Pulling numbers out of my arse, it might go something like: by 40 your limit reduces to 90% of what it once was, by 50 it's 80%, and so on. For a 30 year old elite athlete who has reached 99% of their natural limit, they shouldn't expect to maintain that level for the next 30 years, but a pensioner who has never done any sport in their life could potentially make big gains. Most of us are somewhere in the middle.
TLDR: it's likely you can get stronger if you're currently not strong enough for 7c+ (rather than strong and not good enough) and haven't done much training before.
As for coaching, i've always been into training and have learnt quite a lot over the years, but have found it useful getting coached this year for the first time. I think it's the outside perspective that helps me the most. Based on personal experience i'd recommend going for the package where your plan can be amended as needed. My plan has been switched up several times due to my body not responding to the training as anticipated. After 6 months we're really starting to see what does and doesn't work for me.
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Re strength, I expect you can continue to get a lot stronger, 43 really shouldn’t be a barrier to that. I would see age as something that slows rate of progress and demands more recovery time, not something that prevents progress (unless you’ve been an elite sportsperson since age 8 or something), far from it.
+1. As I've aged into and through my 40s, I feel that my maximum ability is pretty unchanged. The difference is that I have far less "good goes" in a day than previously, and I need more days of recovery. I've adjusted accordingly - more rests and saving myself for infrequent but really intense efforts, and [to quote my Dad] "treating myself nice" with regard to training - better miss a fingerboard / indoor session or two than spend 6 months nursing a tendon injury.
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I don’t want to train I just want to get better than ever. “ don't want to spend any time training, hate it! ”
The more focused you are on a specific project the easier it will be to identify what your weaknesses are and what needs improving. I’m thinking flexibility, tactics, diet, recovery and self belief. Physical strength is harder to gain but there’s so many aspects to what is required to climb harder that there must be areas of strength and power endurance or mobility that you previously haven’t max out on.
Learn to love the journey and don’t get too obsessed with the achievement. Better to have tried and failed…
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Morning Stew
Firstly i cant believe your 83kg! there's more meat on a butchers pencil than you.
I did Lattice for 18 months back in the early days{tested on Tom's home wall} and found it to be useful in order to gain all-round fitness strength etc but it didn't really push my grade, it did however give me the template to structure my own training specific to each project and this seemed to work..ish.
I would agree with a lot of what Moose said, rest more as you aint going to have as many quality goes as you used too.
I used to be able to spend a few hours scrubbing & cleaning and then climb all the problems i just cleaned, this is Not the case anymore.
So - Rein it in, be tactical with your attention and energy. be even more specific with your training and laser focus on your goals.
try to bite off a little bit of the Macleod magic and implement it to your climbing.
For me this might look like this-
Winter 2022, finish off last 2 lines in Rooftown
Project one- Build replica of hard Dyno in garden, work on legs ,flexibility and finger strength, wait for cooler temps and loose weight to send in Oct/Nov
Project two- Aligns with Project one{purposely} but a focus on crimp/pinch strength, send first project then tick this off.
Use Ruthven circuit as training and assessment guide.
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Age shouldn’t be a barrier/excuse. I only started fingerboarding in my mid/late 40’s and made significant measured gains. Still getting all time weighted deadhang scores in my mid/late 50’s. I also hated training and even wrote an article (https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/training_-_why_bother-856) to that effect highlighting the pointlessness of it all.
Yes the gains may be marginal compared to your meteoric rise through the grades but they do add up and if you get into it and calibrate yourself accordingly then you may find yourself fist pumping from smashing your deadhang PB by a kilo.
As Scragrock experienced I also didn’t get any grade/strength improvement from Lattice a long time ago though it did get me very fit and the programmes were more about energy systems back then. If you go down the coaching route (at Lattice or elsewhere) make sure it is with a coach who is more focused and experienced on bouldering/strength at the levels you aspire to. Maybe consider someone like Dave Mason (Monkey boy on here)
(https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1026[/url)
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Hi folks. Probably been asked before but what are folks thoughts about making genuine strength gains in your 40s?
I'm thinking about signing up to lattice as I've never followed a training program. Mainly just bouldered 3 times a week. But now the only problems I've left to do in D and G are Varians 7c+s and I'm not strong enough. Don't want to spend 24 weeks training for nowt (don't want to spend any time training, hate it! But would stick to it if I pay for it). Is it realistic to expect more than marginal gains.. if that?
Edited to add some specifics
Age 43
Weight 83kg
Started climbing at 32 and (humblebrag) climbed 8A at 36. Was xfit from other sport and addicted quickly. Done a few more 8s since then but def not operating regularly at that level. Def better on probs with big holds/moves as don't think ihave good finger strength. Never routinely fingerboarded, campused or system board but do have a crap board garage of my own. I suspect I may have peaked!
My opinion on this - broadly speaking - is that you've got plenty of room to move but need to be careful how you do it.
I'm actually not of the opinion that someone in their 40's gets injured a lot more than someone in their 20's, but rather that an overall drop in pace of recovery leads to a) slower recovery from actual injury and/or b) higher potential for chronic overuse injury such as tendonitis, synovitis etc.
With this in mind if I was writing you a training plan I would first look at your climbing/training history (even though you may not consider it 'training' - I know several people who seem to think 3hr sessions on a hard project isn't 'training') and then consider what your mid-term goals are and what dials need to shift in order to take you in that direction. Basically what it would likely come down to though is reducing overall volume for a period of time so that you could increase intensity in specific areas whilst allowing for full recovery.
For example, if the project/s require you to lock off a small edge and reach high to another small edge whilst holding body tension through bad footholds, then smashing around a load of steep blobby indoor stuff would be a total waste of recovery potential. Instead I'd be looking to get you having quality (short/intense) sessions on a 35-45 board with a good selection of edges, and maybe look at specifically conditioning the grip types you'll expect to find on the boulders you want to do. This could be full crimp, middle 2 drag, whatever.
The main challenge here considering you're a self-admitted sport nut might be controlling the session volume in order to keep quality high and avoid getting injured. The most straightforward way of doing this is to stop a session when you notice you can no longer deliver a good effort on something fairly maximal for you - this is the point where many people drop grade and keep motoring for another hour, but stopping here instead will allow you to recover much faster and train again sooner, meaning more quality training time overall.
Re. the weight comments - I think it's important to consider it as whether you have excess fat mass or simply a more muscular build. If you have a moderate percentage of fat to lose (this will be obvious) then you can shift the scale in your favour to a moderate degree ~2-4kg for most people who have some fat to lose. That being said, a training period is not the time to do this and you would be kicking yourself in the teeth to try! It's important to be in energy balance when training strength (ideally moderate surplus 100~200kcal) and concentrate on diet quality instead.
Hope this helps.
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:agree:
Most of my most significant ascents have been in my 40's and I've been climbing since I was 13.
Knowledge is power, keep gaining knowledge and actively seek to apply it to your climbing. You say you were fit from other sports, some of my biggest gains have been from applying knowledge from other sources (especially Pilates).
Mischa is on the money that training specifically for a goal that means something to you is key. However, all gains feed into the general skillset.
I am also training adverse, but project obsession ( and fear of decrepitude) will overcome that.
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If you’ve never trained and have managed to knock out a few 8s then you definitely have potential to keep improving into your 50s if you use a well structured plan. As coaches always say, consistency is key to seeing incremental improvements.
Now Jonathan mentioned that being light and not getting injured are two of the most important factors to seeing improvements and he’s totally right, both can also go hand in hand as being heavier can burden your tendons and ligaments more but they can also be decoupled slightly, if you consistently fingerboard I can guarantee that you’ll see good improvements in your finger strength and that your fingers will also feel healthy.
Anecdotally the moment I reduce my fingerboard training my fingers start to feel tweaky, I think keeping them loaded regularly helps to keep them strong and healthy. From the sounds of it you’ve mostly stuck to stuff with big holds/big moves and as you venture into smaller holds you’ll likely find your fingers start to get tweaky if you’re not also training them regularly on a fingerboard - this can be as easy as one session of max hangs and one session of density hangs a week spaced out say max hangs on a monday, density hangs on a Saturday.
I see a lot of people laugh at those who use structured training plans but people who have coaches see the best gains and usually stay injury free when they follow their programs properly, my 2c.
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Thanks everyone for the thoughtful and detailed replies. General consensus is fairly encouraging.
I have no plans to mess with weight, I'm tall and my weight has never really varied. At this age I know I'm technically a better climber than ever. I consider myself fairly flexible. I did suffer a lot of injuries early on, probably unsurprising considering rapid progress, but had no problems in a few years now though.
Most of my harder climbs have been on burly, slopey stuff (eg queen Kong, sabotage). I often struggle on more crimpy stuff, which I suppose is inevitable being on the heavier side but does feel like an obvious weakness.
Firstly i cant believe your 83kg! there's more meat on a butchers pencil than you.
:lol: lamplight is obviously flattering!
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I’m pretty sure I was physically strongest during my 40s, because I had a good board at home (and because I’d previously been pretty weak), but I was at my best at climbing in my late 20s, because I climbed a lot.
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the only problems I've left to do in D and G are Varians 7c+s and I'm not strong enough.
Move somewhere else. Problem solved :)
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My experience is at age 29 with zero physical athleticism at all starting to go bouldering, and developing a lot of progress in the three years since then. So not hugely relevant to the thread, but my understanding from reading about training in later life is that past your late 30s absolute strength gains from a trained athlete (8A+ to me says definitely that) absolute strength and power (esp. power) gains are tough but relative strength gains, endurance and so on are very doable.
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Why are people under 40 posting in this thread?
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1. Be light or have the ability to get light.
Corrected: 1. Be light for your height or have the ability to get light for your height (or may not apply if "weight" is disproportionately in climbing relevant muscles)
Started climbing at 32 and (humblebrag) climbed 8A at 36. Was xfit from other sport and addicted quickly. Done a few more 8s since then but def not operating regularly at that level. Def better on probs with big holds/moves as don't think ihave good finger strength. Never routinely fingerboarded, campused or system board but do have a crap board garage of my own. I suspect I may have peaked!
Okay this sounds promising. A few things stand out from that:
1. You've had a late start and a quick rise through the grades, so your plateau might not be very long term nor plateauy, thus potential to improve.
2. You've got a sporting background which is good for base level fitness and the ability to stay athletic, thus helping coping with a training load.
3. You've identified your preferred climbing style and a relative area of weakness. If you've pushed a lot in the former to get those nice juicy big numbers that suit your ability, you might not progress so much in that area, but there seems to be potential to improve the weaker areas and become stronger all-round.
4. Along with that, there seems to be lots of training things you haven't done, which could definitely be beneficial or at least worth a try.
5. Thus, sounds like you haven't peaked. Focusing on areas of weakness, neglected training methods, and slower progress rather than the previous meteoric rise could bring the GAINZ.
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The biggest thing I've noticed (I'm late-mid-forties) is the decline in ability to move explosively. My shoulders are arguably the strongest they've ever been, but that won't get me up my old projects where speed of movement and contact-strength were key.
Well, that and i now have the face of a gaunt old man, whilst simultaneously having a spare tyre around my waist.
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Same here.
Climbing/training for 35 years. Used the campus board for 23 years. Climbed 8As between 25 and at 41. Very noticeable decline in power the last couple of years (now 46). Extra body weight very noticeable too. Static finger strength same or better than ever. Unfortunately as Mr Moon said “it’s having the power to move between the holds”.
If I wanted to improve bouldering (rather than shifting focus back onto trad) I’d get a coach. I doubt they’d have me deadhanging, but perhaps the OP is technically very good and small finger strength gains would make a difference?
So many older climbers still trying to get at it seem either stuck doing the same things or trying to replicate 20-somethings. If performance is that important to you then get help.
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I've noticed my power wane in the last 5 years (now in my early 50's), although injuries and motivation haven't helped. Fortunately, not having much power to begin with means the loss isn't a bad as it could be.
What I've found is that I've become much more cunning, finding the most efficient sequences and teching my way around stuff that I'd just power past. Training has helped slow the loss of strength, with blocks of campussing and fingerboarding occasionally, or when focused on a project to get a meager enough gain to finally get up something.
So, yeah, training does help.
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Why are people under 40 posting in this thread?
:lol: I wondered that too.. People under 40 with experience coaching/ climbing/ training with people over 40 might have something to offer though.
I am approaching the end of my 40s, so maybe qualify to comment. Bust my ankle, around this time of year, 4 years ago. Avoid injury!! Taken a while for confidence and ability to return.
Similar to posts above, I find having specific goals and tailoring everything towards them to be successful. Find it much harder to maintain the height of my ability in all styles these days (although much experience does help to 'cheat' my way up things sometimes).
eg. Recently I have wanted to repeat and put up some more sustained sloper based test pieces locally that I've passed up in my 30s/early 40s. So my focus has been on open hand strength and then endurance. (Managed to tick these off in the last few weeks and feel like anything long and sloper based will not present me with issues at the moment). Also working on hip mobility for a shorter more technical sloper based up problem that I have high pointed on in the last week.
However, a recent visit to the big 45 degree roof at Hartland left me flailing on individual moves. Hardly surprising really as I have done nothing to prepare in this style recently.
Pick the DV problem that inspires you the most, have sessions on it. Work out what is limiting you on it. Finger strength? Why not do some fingerboarding. Core strength? Train your core. Keep having sessions on the problem too, a good way to measure how/if the training is helping. If you hate training keep everything focused on the thing you enjoy, the problem and keep visiting the problem. You'll likely make the specific gains (or are is it just waking what was already there?) you need.
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I think the most important thing to be aware of as a climber is general fitness.
I know young climbers with very strong fingers and bags of power but poor overall fitness.
I know a climber in their late 40's who can come out of a full summer/spring of one repeaters session a week on top of lots of running and cycling to climb 8a routes and 7Bs in a session.
I am 42 now and I've started to struggle with my weight.
I've always been tall and thin with a constant body weight of 72kg but since turning forty I have ballooned up to 77kg.
My diet is good and I don't eat junk food or sugary drinks at all but I still like a few beers at the weekend.
I have to keep an eye on my weight now and try harder to maintain the activity levels of my younger days... My routine has changed and i need to shock myself and my body into changing out of my lazier habits.
Id say, if you haven't done any consistent finger-boarding before, have a 4-6 week block of that once or twice a week.
if you haven't been to a commercial wall for a while, get stuck in a couple of times a week for a month or two...
Shock your system into adapting.
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Ballooned to 77 kg, how we laughed.
I used to be tall and thin, now early 50s and even at peak training / minimum weight (marathon fitness) I am still in the low 80s, and can't sustain that for long.
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I am 42 now and I've started to struggle with my weight.
I've always been tall and thin with a constant body weight of 72kg but since turning forty I have ballooned up to 77kg.
My diet is good and I don't eat junk food or sugary drinks at all but I still like a few beers at the weekend.
I have to keep an eye on my weight now and try harder to maintain the activity levels of my younger days... My routine has changed and i need to shock myself and my body into changing out of my lazier habits.
You (and others) might be pleased to read that energy expenditure remains relatively stable between the ages of 20 and 60 according to a large study published in Science: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abe5017?rss=1
You identified a couple of lifestyle factors that may be contributing and didn't blame a 'slowing metabolism', so i'm not calling you out at all, but plenty of other people do try that one to make themselves unaccountable ;)
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I am 42 now and I've started to struggle with my weight.
I've always been tall and thin with a constant body weight of 72kg but since turning forty I have ballooned up to 77kg.
My diet is good and I don't eat junk food or sugary drinks at all but I still like a few beers at the weekend.
I have to keep an eye on my weight now and try harder to maintain the activity levels of my younger days... My routine has changed and i need to shock myself and my body into changing out of my lazier habits.
You (and others) might be pleased to read that energy expenditure remains relatively stable between the ages of 20 and 60 according to a large study published in Science: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abe5017?rss=1
You identified a couple of lifestyle factors that may be contributing and didn't blame a 'slowing metabolism', so i'm not calling you out at all, but plenty of other people do try that one to make themselves unaccountable ;)
I was going to mention this too, although being quite a few years under 40 my opinion is clearly invalid.
Dave Macleod however, who is quite a few years over 40, put it succinctly in one of his recent videos, describing something along the lines of "the changes in lifestyle which typically accompany getting older". I.e., in a nutshell not moving as much because you're working, looking after children, etc. is what actually causes the typical middle-aged spread, not a slowing metabolism.
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I am 42 now and I've started to struggle with my weight.
I've always been tall and thin with a constant body weight of 72kg but since turning forty I have ballooned up to 77kg.
My diet is good and I don't eat junk food or sugary drinks at all but I still like a few beers at the weekend.
I have to keep an eye on my weight now and try harder to maintain the activity levels of my younger days... My routine has changed and i need to shock myself and my body into changing out of my lazier habits.
You (and others) might be pleased to read that energy expenditure remains relatively stable between the ages of 20 and 60 according to a large study published in Science: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abe5017?rss=1
You identified a couple of lifestyle factors that may be contributing and didn't blame a 'slowing metabolism', so i'm not calling you out at all, but plenty of other people do try that one to make themselves unaccountable ;)
I was going to mention this too, although being quite a few years under 40 my opinion is clearly invalid.
Dave Macleod however, who is quite a few years over 40, put it succinctly in one of his recent videos, describing something along the lines of "the changes in lifestyle which typically accompany getting older". I.e., in a nutshell not moving as much because you're working, looking after children, etc. is what actually causes the typical middle-aged spread, not a slowing metabolism.
Another factor is that weight gain often takes time. A person might have been gaining weight from the age of 20, but a small positive energy balance netting half a kilogram per year is likely to go unnoticeable... Until they're 40 and somehow 10kg heavier!
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Loads of great comments here. Lots of it should be possible, and no reason why not.. Interestingly only one response that actually said, 'yes, I made strength gains in my 40s' and that was Shark.
But it only takes one to show its possible. Shark were your gains as %bodyweight? Ie you didn't just lose a few kilos?
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Making finger strength gains totally doable, particularly if you’ve never fingerboarded with any discipline. Whether this will actually translate to climbing the problems you want to will depend on what you’re actually lacking. Plenty of people get stronger fingers on paper (myself included) without seeing this translate to climbing the things they want to for a variety of reasons.
Making power gains may be a bit trickier.
Have you identified what it is you need to improve specifically to do these problems? Someone who has climbed at your level should have some inkling?
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I’ve made finger strength gainz in my 40s (44 currently) by starting fingerboarding as part of a coached training plan. This was after over 20 years of climbing, albeit at a very punterly level.
Perhaps similarly to others who’ve posted I’ve not notably climbed harder (7B+ just from outdoors climbing, 7B+ post training….) but I feel more robust and able to tackle more fingery problems that can’t be ‘cheated’ with technique and perseverance. I’m optimistic about climbing 7C once the Peak cools down a bit.
So, obviously my level is a lot lower than yours, but you seemed interested to hear examples of where it’s worked…
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Loads of great comments here. Lots of it should be possible, and no reason why not.. Interestingly only one response that actually said, 'yes, I made strength gains in my 40s' and that was Shark.
I made massive gains, but didn't bother mentioning it because the baseline I started from was so low. in my late 40s I went from only ever doing stamina routes at the wall, and trad up to E2 ish and long mountain routes, or bouldering easy circuits. With arrival of kids my time became limited and my usual climbing partner was often unavailable when I was (my wife) so bouldered down the wall (esp steep board which I usually avoided), started doing some fingerboarding and bouldered on the local crags whenever I could and went from punting in the low 6es to doing low 7s indoors and the occasional one outdoors. So massive relative gains, but not really comparable to what you are looking at.
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Thanks Chris and Chris. That is encouraging.
There's not a particular problem that i'm desperate to climb. I've done a lot of development and FAs over the past few years but there's nothing else hard locally i'm especially psyched for (yes the Dan V one would be good - Wacke Races 7C+, but it's repelled several climbers operating at a much higher level than me!)
I had a 3 day road trip around the highlands recently climbing a bunch of 7As and Bs from my Top 100 Scottish 7th Grade Problems list. I'd love to be able to knock off 7Cs in a session in the same way. With no particular project i'm focussed on, it feels like i have a bit of time to train rather than climb for the first time since i started! I'm not trying to improve my max grade (pretty sure I could knock-off Queen Kong ss in a session if i really wanted a soft 8A+ tick), but become a more well-rounded climber.
So, general rather than extremely specific climbing fitness. with the belief my finger strength is a weakness. Although that might just be because i'm a heavy lad. Going to try the lattice free finger assessment this weekend and try and assess it compared to bodyweight. This thread has encouraged me into looking into the possibility of some coaching though. Thanks all
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I am 42 now and I've started to struggle with my weight.
I've always been tall and thin with a constant body weight of 72kg but since turning forty I have ballooned up to 77kg.
My diet is good and I don't eat junk food or sugary drinks at all but I still like a few beers at the weekend.
I have to keep an eye on my weight now and try harder to maintain the activity levels of my younger days... My routine has changed and i need to shock myself and my body into changing out of my lazier habits.
You (and others) might be pleased to read that energy expenditure remains relatively stable between the ages of 20 and 60 according to a large study published in Science: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abe5017?rss=1
You identified a couple of lifestyle factors that may be contributing and didn't blame a 'slowing metabolism', so i'm not calling you out at all, but plenty of other people do try that one to make themselves unaccountable ;)
I was going to mention this too, although being quite a few years under 40 my opinion is clearly invalid.
Dave Macleod however, who is quite a few years over 40, put it succinctly in one of his recent videos, describing something along the lines of "the changes in lifestyle which typically accompany getting older". I.e., in a nutshell not moving as much because you're working, looking after children, etc. is what actually causes the typical middle-aged spread, not a slowing metabolism.
I guess my metabolism may have slowed slightly, but im not sure that i can blame that as a simple comparison between my 11hrs of training per week +2 days climbing on rock in my 30's Vs 4/5hrs of training per week +1 climbing day max per week in my 40's highlights a glaring reduction in my activity levels. Im not married anymore and i dont have children... I just dont have the same energy levels, and i have other hobbies now... My life doesn't revolve around rock climbing anymore, and that's fine :)
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I've gone from successfully projecting F7A - 7A+ when I was 40 - through to 7C - 7C+ now I'm 52. Just steady progression. Climbing/training 3-4 time a week on average. Occasionally periods of fingerboarding (max hangs) have upped my strength - and building a lockdown woody notably upticked my performance.
Sessions are usually short (training/board often an hour - rarely 90 min) outdoors similar (in terms of when I'm at the rock etc..). Basically I have got stronger - quite a bit stronger - but session endurance is low and I need time to recover. Still loving it though!
Keep at it - but be sensible and don't expect gains like when you were 20! (common sense stuff really..)
(I just boulder - none of that sport / rope malarkey :D )
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I think the most important thing to be aware of as a climber is general fitness.
I know young climbers with very strong fingers and bags of power but poor overall fitness.
I know a climber in their late 40's who can come out of a full summer/spring of one repeaters session a week on top of lots of running and cycling to climb 8a routes and 7Bs in a session.
This is a crucial point. Look at any old boy performing well and they will almost always have a consistently good level of general fitness and relative leanness-per-height, do a lot of CV activity (running up the Ben for a "rest day", eh Dave Mac?), and have a background in athletic activity.
I've yet to see any evidence, anecdotes, or rationale to suggest it's possible to maintain physical climbing prowess without that fitness.
Another factor is that weight gain often takes time. A person might have been gaining weight from the age of 20, but a small positive energy balance netting half a kilogram per year is likely to go unnoticeable... Until they're 40 and somehow 10kg heavier!
Conversely it can be quite a shock to the system when that 10kg goes on in half a year...
I had a 3 day road trip around the highlands recently climbing a bunch of 7As and Bs from my Top 100 Scottish 7th Grade Problems list. I'd love to be able to knock off 7Cs in a session in the same way. With no particular project i'm focussed on, it feels like i have a bit of time to train rather than climb for the first time since i started! I'm not trying to improve my max grade (pretty sure I could knock-off Queen Kong ss in a session if i really wanted a soft 8A+ tick), but become a more well-rounded climber.
So, general rather than extremely specific climbing fitness. with the belief my finger strength is a weakness. Although that might just be because i'm a heavy lad. Going to try the lattice free finger assessment this weekend and try and assess it compared to bodyweight. This thread has encouraged me into looking into the possibility of some coaching though. Thanks all
The logic does seem to be there! You're not looking for massive and unfeasible jumps in standard, but to push your base level a bit so you can do what you're already physical capable of, but quicker, and maybe in some different styles?? And you've identified a possible weakness. Definitely seems worth a shot.
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I've gone from successfully projecting F7A - 7A+ when I was 40 - through to 7C - 7C+ now I'm 52. Just steady progression. Climbing/training 3-4 time a week on average. Occasionally periods of fingerboarding (max hangs) have upped my strength - and building a lockdown woody notably upticked my performance.
Sessions are usually short (training/board often an hour - rarely 90 min) outdoors similar (in terms of when I'm at the rock etc..). Basically I have got stronger - quite a bit stronger - but session endurance is low and I need time to recover. Still loving it though!
Keep at it - but be sensible and don't expect gains like when you were 20! (common sense stuff really..)
(I just boulder - none of that sport / rope malarkey :D )
That's really impressive progress and more inspiring to me than e.g. Dave Mac still being strong in his mid forties. Do you think session endurance could be improved if trained? Surely it's no surprise that you have little work capacity(?) if you only do 1 hour sessions? I hope I can recreate some of your success in years to come anyway!
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This thread is really inspiring for a bloke who has turned 40 this year and had to essentially start my climbing fitness from scratch in my late 30s after a significant period of illness!
From my point of view consistency (across the spectrum of contributing factors such as diet, rest, sleep, training time), remembering to keep trying hard (including progressive overload) while still having fun and enjoying it all seem highly relevant. Recently I had lost some psych for indoor shouldering (my gym is full of comp style blobs that melt my finger tips and I don't find so much fun), so mixed my routine up a little. Still do max hangs once or twice a week and a boulder/board session a week but have started leading again which has been a lot of fun. I think it'll only add to my overall climbing fitness especially some of the complementary endurance work outs I've been incorporating.
So my advice would be: don't get stuck in a rut or let climbing/training feel like a chore.
Regarding the session endurance/tiredness I concur with what others have said. Personally I do feel my session endurance is worse than it used to be - especially my max 'try hard window'. Perhaps the endurance work will help with this. Also, I can feel more tired the day after a hard session. I think i put this down to getting older, slightly accelerated by the illness I had and a history of injuries slowly taking their toll... but nothing that can't be worked through! :weakbench:
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But it only takes one to show its possible. Shark were your gains as %bodyweight? Ie you didn't just lose a few kilos?
No - they were absolute gains ie combined bodyweight and added weight. I only consolidated at PB level this winter but my on-crag finger strength feels like it has improved. I’m 58.
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I think the most important thing to be aware of as a climber is general fitness.
I know young climbers with very strong fingers and bags of power but poor overall fitness.
I know a climber in their late 40's who can come out of a full summer/spring of one repeaters session a week on top of lots of running and cycling to climb 8a routes and 7Bs in a session.
This is a crucial point. Look at any old boy performing well and they will almost always have a consistently good level of general fitness and relative leanness-per-height, do a lot of CV activity (running up the Ben for a "rest day", eh Dave Mac?), and have a background in athletic activity.
I've yet to see any evidence, anecdotes, or rationale to suggest it's possible to maintain physical climbing prowess without that fitness.
Totally agree with this. It's one of those things that's easy to overlook when in your 20s, but thereafter general fitness gets more and more important alongside your overall activity levels.
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This is a crucial point. Look at any old boy performing well and they will almost always have a consistently good level of general fitness and relative leanness-per-height, do a lot of CV activity (running up the Ben for a "rest day", eh Dave Mac?), and have a background in athletic activity.
I've yet to see any evidence, anecdotes, or rationale to suggest it's possible to maintain physical climbing prowess without that fitness
Totally disagree with this. I stopped running in my 40’s (was doing half marathons) and found it made no difference to my climbing which is not surprising as climbing is not a cardio vascular / VO2 max sport. Also my large legs became medium sized so she’d a couple of kilos there. It is also difficult to maintain flexibility if you run regularly. I do think that general all round body strength (not endurance) is helpful especially in preventing injury and doing that sort of sort of training combats the loss of muscle mass that comes with aging.
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Can anyone explain why they think that the importance of general fitness increases with age? I can see a rationale for lifting more weights (reducing/limiting/reversing loss of muscle mass as you age; increased importance of avoiding injury, etc.), but I'm struggling more with the rationale of why, say, running would be more important for the 50yr old than the 20yr old? Or do you all just mean that 20 yr olds typically do a lot of "stuff" anyway (e.g. walking to the wall because they can't afford a car) whereas 50yr olds don't, so it's not necessarily more important per se, but that kind of activity is more likely to me missed out on?
[Shark beat me to a somewhat similar post, but I've left the above unedited]
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There will always be extremely rare exceptions, you are the only one I am aware of, and even then I don't know your base level CV fitness (maybe quite a lot left over from, errr, doing half marathons in your 40s hmmm) and I suspect your body fat proportion is relatively low....
Anecdotally I can confirm that all round body strength is not a guarantor of injury prevention.
Edit: Barrows - keeping weight down, burning off bodily fat, maintaining activity on rest days (esp since the 50 yr old can't train as much), encouraging blood flow for recovery. There might be more science than that or just ask the wizened old boys you see at the wall / down the cornice.
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Just looking at the fact that the old boys who are going ok are lean and do lots of general activity may just tell you that the type of person who still enjoys climbing aged 50 is also the type of person who often likes doing other activities (run, bike swim etc). It doesn't necessarily tell you anything about whether the running/swimming is helping them... although of course it may be.
Is there a reason why running is better for staying light than dieting when you're old? I've always thought it makes sense to plan activities and then manipulate weight around that if you wish using diet, rather than using activity to manipulate weight. IIRC there's some evidence to back that up too (i.e. dietary intervention being more successful than activity intervention for weight loss). Is there a reason for that to change when you get old?
Not sure there's any good evidence for any recovery interventions (other than sleep and diet) being particularly effective at any age, but it's a while since I looked.
All sounds an awful lot like correlation and not that much like causation..?
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Can anyone explain why they think that the importance of general fitness increases with age? I can see a rationale for lifting more weights (reducing/limiting/reversing loss of muscle mass as you age; increased importance of avoiding injury, etc.), but I'm struggling more with the rationale of why, say, running would be more important for the 50yr old than the 20yr old? Or do you all just mean that 20 yr olds typically do a lot of "stuff" anyway (e.g. walking to the wall because they can't afford a car) whereas 50yr olds don't, so it's not necessarily more important per se, but that kind of activity is more likely to me missed out on?
[Shark beat me to a somewhat similar post, but I've left the above unedited]
You basically answered your question yourself there. Note that I didn't mention running; people always default to running when you mention general fitness but that type of leg based CV fitness is but a tiny component of the overall picture.
Maybe a better way of putting it would be to say that it's just as important, but more easily missed, hence requires more focus?
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Just looking at the fact that the old boys who are going ok are lean and do lots of general activity may just tell you that the type of person who still enjoys climbing aged 50 is also the type of person who often likes doing other activities (run, bike swim etc). It doesn't necessarily tell you anything about whether the running/swimming is helping them... although of course it may be.
Is there a reason why running is better for staying light than dieting when you're old? I've always thought it makes sense to plan activities and then manipulate weight around that if you wish using diet, rather than using activity to manipulate weight. IIRC there's some evidence to back that up too (i.e. dietary intervention being more successful than activity intervention for weight loss). Is there a reason for that to change when you get old?
Not sure there's any good evidence for any recovery interventions (other than sleep and diet) being particularly effective at any age, but it's a while since I looked.
All sounds an awful lot like correlation and not that much like causation..?
The bold bit is exactly my understanding of dieting too.
Regarding sleep there is evidence that sleep quantity and quality decline with age (from being a teenager!) and the consequences of insufficient sleep (less than 7-8 hours) are greater than most people are aware. Basically every aspect of brain and body function is negatively impacted and your brain even tricks you into not noticing it until sleep is drastically impaired. I don't have individual sources to hand but my knowledge of this all comes from the book 'Why We Sleep' by Matthew Walker (neuroscientist specialising in sleep). Very good book.
Edit: I am under 40 but anecdotally I've had colossal improvements in mood, energy, recovery and more by prioritising sleep quantity and quality. I am now very tuned into when my sleep quality has been reduced by things such as not sleeping in pitch black room, too much light exposure at night time, not enough in the morning, altered sleeping time, temperature and so on. Of course, having 3 kids makes this challenging to get right!
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Just looking at the fact that the old boys who are going ok are lean and do lots of general activity may just tell you that the type of person who still enjoys climbing aged 50 is also the type of person who often likes doing other activities (run, bike swim etc). It doesn't necessarily tell you anything about whether the running/swimming is helping them... although of course it may be.
There is also the unobserved counter-factual, ie that we don’t know how hard the lean mean old boys would be climbing if they didn’t run or cycle loads. They might be better, assuming that their stopping cycling was to improve climbing rather than as a result of declining health or psyche. I guess we ought to look at the very outliers who are clearly close to the absolute limit for older people, like Lee Sheftel or Bill Ramsey, I’m sure there are loads across Europe but I don’t know about them. What are those guys doing?
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Anecdata: never trained properly and peaked around 7A+, kids and 10-12 years off, restarting in 50s. Back to occasional 7A and feels more to come, still don't really train 'properly'. Bonus of never training properly means there's more to explore because you were never close to realising natural potential (whatever that is). 58 yesterday. OK 'general fitness' from running, biking, swimming but that HAS had a definite drop off in last couple of years.
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I’ve done no CV fitness stuff since doing a bit of five a side back in 2005!
Can’t stand running (it’s nearly as bad as golf 😂)
I have started skateboarding recently 🤟
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You basically answered your question yourself there.
Makes sense, I just wasn't quite sure what people were saying. Lifting weights definitely seems to have logic behind it for the older folks, and it's harder not to be lazy with general activity at 35 than 25, so I can imagine by 45 or 55 it's much harder still!
I guess we ought to look at the very outliers who are clearly close to the absolute limit for older people, like Lee Sheftel or Bill Ramsey, I’m sure there are loads across Europe but I don’t know about them. What are those guys doing?
Would be interesting to know. At least some of them seem - from the outside - to go climbing lots and lots with bits of fairly "normal" training in between, but I don't know any of them well enough to know the bits you don't see in the background... I met Bill in Rifle 6 years ago and he was quite conscientious about keeping some strength training going every week while he was on a long trip.
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Sharples once told me (whilst nursing an injury) that as he got older climbing was simply about injury management rather than anything else. I think Reevey was nursing an elbow udder at the time and nodded in agreement! I know plenty of people that keep getting better and better as they get older (>40) but perhaps this is simply due to climbing being very skills based?
Totally disagree with this. I stopped running in my 40’s (was doing half marathons) and found it made no difference to my climbing which is not surprising as climbing is not a cardio vascular / VO2 max sport. Also my large legs became medium sized so she’d a couple of kilos there. It is also difficult to maintain flexibility if you run regularly. I do think that general all round body strength (not endurance) is helpful especially in preventing injury and doing that sort of sort of training combats the loss of muscle mass that comes with aging.
I think the energy expended and recovery from the other sport is an issue (it also eats into available time to spend getting better at whatever the priority is). I took up road cycling mainly because if I climbed as frequently as I was doing I just couldn't avoid injury. However, the weekends where I'd been on the bike Sat, and tried to climb Sun were eye-opening; I was totally ruined and my ability to keep my feet on when climbing steep stuff was massively reduced.
Is there a reason why running is better for staying light than dieting when you're old? I've always thought it makes sense to plan activities and then manipulate weight around that if you wish using diet, rather than using activity to manipulate weight. IIRC there's some evidence to back that up too (i.e. dietary intervention being more successful than activity intervention for weight loss). Is there a reason for that to change when you get old?
If you actually enjoy eating (or actively dislike dieting) then perhaps ensuring a deficit from increasing exercise is actually easier / more enjoyable / less miserable? After all, you actually have to diet for it to be effective.
This is a crucial point. Look at any old boy performing well and they will almost always have a consistently good level of general fitness and relative leanness-per-height, do a lot of CV activity (running up the Ben for a "rest day", eh Dave Mac?), and have a background in athletic activity.
In one of Highlander's videos he speaks about training for people with a sedentary job and those with an active job (I can remember a few route setters who would always say they were trashed when it came to training or climbing). I think he concluded that the active-job type people were more resistant to injury and general training load. Perhaps there's something there or perhaps I'm mis-remembering.
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I don’t find any difference in being able to gain strength in my 40s (it’s not that old really it it?), as others say the differences are in how long it takes to recover and how easy it is to get injured. A bit like playing a computer game* on hard mode- it’s the same game but you can’t get away with making the same mistakes you could when you were on the easy setting.
Funny how so many threads come back to the idea that being light is the most important thing in climbing. I’ve always been really light and I’ve always been burnt off by people who are heavier than me. Obviously the idea that you’re the perfect climber but are held back by the cruel fate of weighing a bit is appealing but as far as self-defeating mentalities go it’s probably up there with thinking you’re on the scrapheap because of your age.
*disclaimer- I haven’t played a computer game since about 2003
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At the young age of 67 I ride one day climb the next, although at moment the climbing tends be just on my board 40 degree. After a good session on the board I can wake in the middle of the night with locked fingers. I get cramp in my abs when riding if I cough.
I would like to get out more but my arthritic left hip is at a stage where I struggle to get my sock,so the thought of dragging myself and a pad to the crag to find I can’t get my shoe on is a bit off putting.
But the good news is I can still do last years problems often several sessions worth in one session and I can ride 60 to 100 miles and climb the next day.
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Funny how so many threads come back to the idea that being light is the most important thing in climbing.
That's partly my fault, sorry if it's a bit :off: . I did also mention "Don't get injured" and have posted at least two posts directly responding to Stewart's analysis of the situation.
OTOH physically hard climbing is a fundamentally power-to-weight based activity. You're hauling your body up overhanging terrain. There are obviously many factors but having the power to haul the weight up is essential.
I’ve always been really light and I’ve always been burnt off by people who are heavier than me.
Usually necessary but not sufficient. One could say similar about muscle mass, finger strength, etc etc.
Obviously the idea that you’re the perfect climber but are held back by the cruel fate of weighing a bit is appealing
It's not necessarily appealing at all. Depending on the circumstances and desires that vary from person to person, it can be a pretty unpleasant realisation. It's best not to make the mistake of looking at someone highlighting "issue X" and judging them as "that person is egotistically using issue X as an excuse and deluding themselves that they'd be amazing without it".
but as far as self-defeating mentalities go it’s probably up there with thinking you’re on the scrapheap because of your age.
Again this varies from person to person but sometimes it can be simple acknowledgement of facts about the situation for that person. It's not self-defeating if the climbing inhibition is real and is known to be real by the person talking about it (see Tom B's and Eddies' posts too).
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All sounds an awful lot like correlation and not that much like causation..?
This is true. But there seems to be logic there that being in overall physically good shape, including fitness, would be beneficial for challenging physical activity (subject to resting well etc).
OTOH it would be very interesting to see science behind "not being that active, not doing the CV stuff Eddies mentioned, and still climbing physically hard in later life". Maybe it's as simple as "just take roids!" ;)
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OTOH it would be very interesting to see science behind "not being that active, not doing the CV stuff Eddies mentioned, and still climbing physically hard in later life".
I'm not sure a binary dose/no dose view makes sense here. Surely it's about the amount of CV activity that's at issue, making it even harder to ascertain its effect.
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I’ve done no CV fitness stuff since doing a bit of five a side back in 2005!
Can’t stand running (it’s nearly as bad as golf 😂)
I have started skateboarding recently 🤟
Similar but worse - I haven't done any CV exercise since I was at school in 1992! My only exercise is climbing, weekends and holidays only, and the nearest I get to a CV workout is a slog of a walk-in with pads. If Fiend's right it looks like I'm in for a rude awakening.
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You mean "if Eddies is right"....
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Hate to say it but post-50, watching weight and avoiding injury is about 30% of the game. Dedicated time on actual hard moves and training is 30%. Actually finding time, compatible routes, and partners also able to climb hard? 40%+
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So, general rather than extremely specific climbing fitness. with the belief my finger strength is a weakness. Going to try the lattice free finger assessment this weekend and try and assess it compared to bodyweight.
The plot thickens. I did the lattice rung test this evening. At the risk of sounding a bit Macleod I surprised myself. 167% bodyweight. That is 55kg on top of my weighed in 82kg which according to the free analysis is 'much stronger than expected for 7C'. Simultaneously pleasing and discouraging at the same time. Perhaps the weakness is elsewhere... In reality the test is too basic. Getting 8 fingers into what is effectively an incut jug rail is far different from trying to squeeze two half pads onto a tiny hold or whatever. It has made my question other aspects of my performance though. Time for a bit of coaching I think 🤔
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One thing that rarely gets mentioned on these discussions is just skill/talent. Some people are just ‘good’ at sport. I know several people that are just good at almost any activity you point them at. Just good hand/eye/body coordination etc. I guess it doesn’t get discussed because it is hard to quantify and impossible to train. But some people just seem talented.
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All sounds an awful lot like correlation and not that much like causation..?
This is true. But there seems to be logic there that being in overall physically good shape, including fitness, would be beneficial for challenging physical activity (subject to resting well etc).
OTOH it would be very interesting to see science behind "not being that active, not doing the CV stuff Eddies mentioned, and still climbing physically hard in later life". Maybe it's as simple as "just take roids!" ;)
I dunno about roids but getting TRT from a licensed medical professional almost certainly would help, it seems to in other sports.
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So, general rather than extremely specific climbing fitness. with the belief my finger strength is a weakness. Going to try the lattice free finger assessment this weekend and try and assess it compared to bodyweight.
The plot thickens. I did the lattice rung test this evening. At the risk of sounding a bit Macleod I surprised myself. 167% bodyweight. That is 55kg on top of my weighed in 82kg which according to the free analysis is 'much stronger than expected for 7C'. Simultaneously pleasing and discouraging at the same time. Perhaps the weakness is elsewhere... In reality the test is too basic. Getting 8 fingers into what is effectively an incut jug rail is far different from trying to squeeze two half pads onto a tiny hold or whatever. It has made my question other aspects of my performance though. Time for a bit of coaching I think 🤔
As you have alluded to, a strong performance on big edges does not automatically translate to performing well on small edges /other grips.
Despite testing poorly on a 20mm edge, my climbing experience is that I do quite well on crimpy problems. After joining Lattice I learnt that I test much better on small edges. Seems you could potentially have the opposite profile?
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Hate to say it but post-50, watching weight and avoiding injury is about 30% of the game. Dedicated time on actual hard moves and training is 30%. Actually finding time, compatible routes, and partners also able to climb hard? 40%+
Clearly the problem is that your not giving 110% which, as anyone who follows football knows, is what professional coaches demand
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As a 47 year old still psyched on every form of climbing and wanting to do my best in all of them, I have nothing to add other than,
1. Motivation underlies everything, so whatever motivates you most should direct any training. But as you age there’s increasing value in reflecting on the wisdom of being motivated by certain thing (motivation writing cheques the body can’t cash). A change of scene from the more intensive hard bouldering/sport, to adventurous trad/DWS/alpine rock/ice climbing etc. Could make more sense to light a new flame than trying too hard to keep a diminishing flame lit.
2. Effective training usually involves pushing the body beyond its comfort zone.
3. Pushing a body beyond its comfort zone = increased risk of injury.
4. Time injured is time not climbing or training.
5. Time is in ever shorter supply the older you get.
Corrected: 1. Be light for your height or have the ability to get light for your height (or may not apply if "weight" is disproportionately in climbing relevant muscles)
So the magic bullet is get shorter, and lighter.
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So the magic bullet is get shorter, and lighter.
Fortunately, with age, we all get shorter. So that’s 50% of the battle won already :)
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This thread has made some interesting reading and made me reflect on my condition at 58 years old.
Longevity and improvement...I’m bouldering harder now than ever, at least in terms of grades, within a speciality of crimpy, steep and short and a very small CV of dodgy and dubious 7C to 8A Font maximum.
I’ve always liked training and always made sure that I have had access to a board (since the mid 90's). Currently I have a good set up, home board and campus board, beast makers etc and this has really helped keep the progress. I’ve usually trained on my own, striving to train weaknesses, but often falling back on things I like doing, but if I can see this as some kind of cycle then its probably quite effective. A re-set on my board often produces improvement. I would definitely advise variety in training and training plans often encourage that, at least encouraging base levels etc.
I’d say in my 50’s I’ve specialised or gone down a very narrowing alley, I don’t think there is much left to squeeze out, but I will try!
In my 40’s I had some variety, probably more fun, but didn’t boulder as hard.
I would say that in your 40’s there is definitely lots of room for improvement. Managing injuries is a big thing, I can’t remember not having some kind of injury. Managing big injuries is a bigger thing! Knee operations and such like. Managing life styles and stuff that comes along is another big factor. If you can keep going, have a body that is predisposed to climbing and keep the motivation then improvement is a definite possibility. I’d also say that bouldering better or even harder is not just about grades and if motivation can arrive from that position, the improvement in grade might be a bonus.
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I wanted to edit my last post, I forgot to add my theory for longevity and improvement; drink lots of red wine and never try and flash problems. In seriousness, working problems allows to you to feel your way into the moves and pull back if its clear your body doesn't like it. Onsighting especially near your limits seems to require a fierce, commitment, a kind of competitiveness that for an ageing body might not be great.
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I’m very old (70+) and have climbed for 56years with no breaks other than easier years due to kids and work commitments.
Subjectively I am pretty sure I got stronger over lockdown when I used a lattice program to keep me focused.
Objectively; I began a finger training programme November 2020 with a force plate that gives me actual measurements, using a 15mm edge. Single hand hangs have steadily improved from about 36kg each hand. My July 2022 averages are around about 50 kg for each hand (max 54kg). So I suggest that the answer to the question re gaining strength in 40s is probably yes. Whether this improves your climbing is another question as possibly, is does it let you climb harder grades.
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What do you do with a force plate? Pull down as hard you can
and take a reading?
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Yep basically. Max pull test start of each month. Then twice a week warm up, then 12 pulls at 85% of current max, 2 mins rest between each pair. Warm down. 30 mins well spent. Force plate links to app which provides graphic re pulling force and time and stores all sessions. Also gives Rate of force development for each pull.
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How much is this technological snake oil? 😁
Jokes aside, how much is it?
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How much is this technological snake oil? 😁
Jokes aside, how much is it?
Thread about the Tindeq from a little while ago
https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,31157.msg631844.html#msg631844
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Can similar be achieved with a fingerboard and a set of bathroom scales?
If you want to really push the boat out Beastmaker do this:
https://www.beastmaker.co.uk/products/motherboard
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Can similar be achieved with a fingerboard and a set of bathroom scales?
If you want to really push the boat out Beastmaker do this:
https://www.beastmaker.co.uk/products/motherboard
I've used a cheap digital luggage scale in combination with a spanner to torque bolts to spec so I don't see why not!
I reckon the easiest way would be to drill a small hole in the portable hangboard you use for pickups, put the hook on the scale through it and the other end to an anchor, either on the ground or overhead.
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I bought my force plate (Entralpi) a couple of years ago before Beastmaker or climbro brought out their products and it was around about £150 including import tax from Canada. Basically it is bathroom scale with a fast Bluetooth connection to a reasonably useful app. The Bluetooth and app make it much easier to use but there is no reason you couldn’t replicate the system with just a bathroom scale… calculator and note book. I was aware of tindeq but couldn’t find out much info so this was a cheap ish complete solution. I was also fed up with hanging weights off me to do my hangboarding. Being weak, one handed pulls work for me but obviously strong people will need to add weights so they don’t lift off the scale.
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Not just weak but doddering. Checked and I already said all of this in the Tindeq thread. :look:
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Can similar be achieved with a fingerboard and a set of bathroom scales?
I guess like in the same way you can grind coffee with a mortar and pestle if you want to, but the burr grinder is nicer to use and will give better results 😄
A couple of kilos would be a lot of difference for a one arm hang, and I’m not sure you’d get that sort of accuracy whilst attempting to try hard and look down at your scale!
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Not just weak but doddering. Checked and I already said all of this in the Tindeq thread. :look:
I think that Tindeq thread was during one of the lockdown periods, so I’m sure there are people who purchased Tindeqs and have forgotten about them, let alone forgetting posting in a thread 😄
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I think the most important thing to be aware of as a climber is general fitness.
I know young climbers with very strong fingers and bags of power but poor overall fitness.
I know a climber in their late 40's who can come out of a full summer/spring of one repeaters session a week on top of lots of running and cycling to climb 8a routes and 7Bs in a session.
This is a crucial point. Look at any old boy performing well and they will almost always have a consistently good level of general fitness and relative leanness-per-height, do a lot of CV activity (running up the Ben for a "rest day", eh Dave Mac?), and have a background in athletic activity.
I've yet to see any evidence, anecdotes, or rationale to suggest it's possible to maintain physical climbing prowess without that fitness.
I'm going to bite with a personal anecdote. My dad climbed his first 8a aged 63. He had dodgy cartilage in his knee (subsequently replaced) which meant that other than dog walking and walking to the crag he did no cardio whatsoever. He improved gradually through his 50s and then got a board in his garage which he used 'little and often'. He didn't just do problems but sometimes would practice holding hard positions with one hand, and would do endurance laps progressing to laps with a weight belt. He did press ups and kettlebells in a pretty gentle way in the mornings. He did short punchy routes and boulder sessions outside (he hated bouldering because of his knee but did V8 in his early 60s). He always focused on redpointing at his limit more than onsighting lots of stuff.
With my dad I have some suspicion that he was very strong as a young man - he was climbing E5 in the late 70s early 80s and said he once did 50 pull ups. I'm not sure how strict they were but he could still do one-armers in his 60s. So when he got strong in his 50s and 60s I don't know how much of that was recruiting strength that previously existed vs building new strength.
I have just turned 40 and have not been able to replicate my dad's climbing ability yet, despite climbing pretty regularly for the last 14 years. I still have ambition and would love to get stronger in my 40s. I worry I am way more injury prone than my dad - that more than anything has stopped my progression in the past, I'll make gains then have to stop because of shoulder, elbow or finger woes. So my main aim now is to keep training consistently but try not to get injured!
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Good for him, hope for us all. Curious, was he retired at that age?
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Good for him, hope for us all. Curious, was he retired at that age?
Not fully retired but he moved to Dorset and had certainly wound down work and was able to climb very flexibly rather than being stuck in an office 9-5 or worse.
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So if you're very strong, climbed E5 back when it was properly hard, once boshed out 50 pull-ups, can do one arm pull-ups into your 60s, boulder V8 in your 60s, and focus on redpointing, you can get by without training cardio and still do F8a??
Okay, that's cleared that up then!! :lol:
(I suppose I could have said "or a background in being bloody strong and climbing consistently hard")
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I don’t know whether anyones mentioned it. (I have had several sleeps and naps since this thread started) some of us train cardio because we are naturally fat bastards.
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Good for him, hope for us all. Curious, was he retired at that age?
Not fully retired but he moved to Dorset and had certainly wound down work and was able to climb very flexibly rather than being stuck in an office 9-5 or worse.
Nice strategy. I in Dorset. :)
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Reading this thread with interest, since I've had an extended break from climbing since the start of the pandemic and am getting keen to get back into it more. (and am 43)
I'm depressingly weak at the moment compared to before, although I've never had that much power. About ten years ago I could get up 8b, and on a trip in spring 2019, I could still manage 7c+, albeit one that suited me. At the moment it almost feels like a lost cause, as 6b feels hard, is there any hope?
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Of course there's hope, you're only 43 and you climbed 7c+ 3 years ago! :boohoo:
As you probably know, aerobic fitness comes back quickly and is the easiest thing to improve, up to a point, by virtue of just going climbing (at least in my experience). Beyond that point of natural improvement, fitness is still the easiest element to train by doing circuits or autobelay laps.
On the other hand if you aspire to be smashing out bouldery 8bs prepare to suffer disappointment, aging angst and likely injury! But I doubt you do aspire to those types of routes.
For someone with your previous level, aerobic grade 8s and/or E5/6 onsighting could be back within range within 6 months provided circumstances and motivation align. Both are probably as important as a functioning bundle of muscle fibres.
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I worry I am way more injury prone than my dad - that more than anything has stopped my progression in the past, I'll make gains then have to stop because of shoulder, elbow or finger woes. So my main aim now is to keep training consistently but try not to get injured!
I am extremely injury prone. I’d estimate being injured up to 2/3 of the last 4 years. Last September I focused on 2 things: strengthening rotator cuff and shoulders and just being consistent. Even if it’s just a 40 min session here and there, maintain a regular training habit.
I have not had any climbing related injury 😀 (injured hip, but not through climbing)
Toby, I’m a good 10 years older than you, put on about 7kg this year through work stress, so eating lots of sugar to keep going, and last week I flashed a route of a standard that used to be normal for me.. except the last one was in ‘93. So if I can lose the lard, I’ll be climbing ok I reckon.
Age isn’t the problem, it’s continuity of climbing. It’ll come back if you keep at it.
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I don’t know whether anyones mentioned it. (I have had several sleeps and naps since this thread started) some of us train cardio because we are naturally fat bastards.
I'm interested to know more about what sort of cardio you do
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At the moment it almost feels like a lost cause, as 6b feels hard, is there any hope?
As others have said, lifestyle is more of a factor than physical age. I have had several breaks over the last 10 + years, due to numerous reasons; small children, injuries, waning interest, other pursuits. Each time it feels despairingly like starting from zero again, but if you accept it and just get on with the game again and are sensible with what you do and don't hope for miracles / try to overdo it and get back too quickly and end up injured, it always returns if you stick with it.
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At the moment it almost feels like a lost cause, as 6b feels hard, is there any hope?
As others have said, lifestyle is more of a factor than physical age.
Yeah I think this is the trouble with your 40s, for me it seems like peak hard-working and small children care all at the same time. Difficult to get enough sleep, difficult to spend time away from desk etc. I need to make lifestyle changes but these things are hard to do when you have responsibilities etc.
I was going well until 2016, did my first 7c then injured my finger training 2 finger hangs. Never quite got back to that level before having my first kid in 2018 and since then have been well below that, finding 6b hard sounds familiar, particularly when I had a complete climbing/training and almost total exercise layoff in the first bit of the pandemic and put on 5kg.
Have managed now to get down to my previous weight and improved at deadhangs (carefully). Becoming an endurance weasel appeals to me but I worry I don't have enough finger strength to get into the higher grades too.
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I don’t know whether anyones mentioned it. (I have had several sleeps and naps since this thread started) some of us train cardio because we are naturally fat bastards.
I'm interested to know more about what sort of cardio you do
Cycling I ride 3 or 4 times a week. Usually a couple of interval sessions with a ride distance of about 20 miles and one or two longer rides of 60 to 100 miles.
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For someone with your previous level, aerobic grade 8s and/or E5/6 onsighting could be back within range within 6 months provided circumstances and motivation align. Both are probably as important as a functioning bundle of muscle fibres.
Also, Toby you were hardly a technical dunce (!) so I think form will come rapidly as fitness returns. It's also interesting to read other people have drifted away from climbing a little since/due to the pandemic, especially those like yourself who I would've classed as 'lifers'.
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Reading this thread with interest, since I've had an extended break from climbing since the start of the pandemic and am getting keen to get back into it more. (and am 43)
I'm depressingly weak at the moment compared to before, although I've never had that much power. About ten years ago I could get up 8b, and on a trip in spring 2019, I could still manage 7c+, albeit one that suited me. At the moment it almost feels like a lost cause, as 6b feels hard, is there any hope?
You've had good form in the past, a solid history of hard climbing, have been out of climbing more for circumstancial / motivational issues rather than physical deterioration, have identified an area of weakness, and are so lean you need to be tethered down to stop floating away. Of course there's bloody hope. Take it steadily to avoid injury, keep fuelled up, rest enough, etc etc.
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I’d trade a smallish not too important body part to be in Toby’s position!
I’m very interested to see how I will respond to climbing and training once I’m no longer sick from long covid. Naturally I’d love to make some strength gains again but I’m both 49 and have a chronic illness so absolutely no idea what the future holds.
A few months back I was hit by a bolus of frustration and did both a pull up and a fingertip pull up just to see if I still could. For context I can’t walk more than 1/2 a mile in a day without being really sick. The pull ups were just fine but I fell asleep for an hour and a half afterwards… kind of suspect that I’ll be able to get back to things assuming I can tolerate physical activity of any sort.
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I’d trade a smallish not too important body part to be in Toby’s position!
An open goal if I ever saw one
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I don’t know whether anyones mentioned it. (I have had several sleeps and naps since this thread started) some of us train cardio because we are naturally fat bastards.
I'm interested to know more about what sort of cardio you do
Cycling I ride 3 or 4 times a week. Usually a couple of interval sessions with a ride distance of about 20 miles and one or two longer rides of 60 to 100 miles.
Thats great, thanks a lot. Do you know how many calories you burn during your interval sessions?
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Mondays session of 20 seconds on 40 seconds off one set of 14 and set off 9. Riding time of 1hr 14 mins 20.32 miles. Average heart rate 128 max 164 calories used 608.
The calories used won’t be that accurate as it’s based on my age, sex, max heart rate via my heart rate monitor. Also I probably haven’t altered it for a couple of years so the baseline is out.
Last Fridays 65.15 mile ride in 3 hrs 42 mins used 2,135 cals.
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Awesome, thanks.
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If you purely want to exercise to burn fat, unless you have a lot of time for very long rides or runs, go for short high intensity sessions; speed intervals or hill intervals. They will hurt (by that i don't mean injuring yourself) but they will work.
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If you purely want to exercise to burn fat, unless you have a lot of time for very long rides or runs, go for short high intensity sessions; speed intervals or hill intervals. They will hurt (by that i don't mean injuring yourself) but they will work.
Because I'd blow chunks!!
Does feet-on campusing qualify as cardio!?
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Depends if you keep it up for half an hour or more.
Wanting to blow chunks is a crucial part of hill reps. Once you reach that point only a few more to go.
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Thank you for the supportive comments above everyone. Paul B, re pandemic motivation loss, probably the most influential factor is that its more difficult to find climbing partners, unless, like you, your partner also climbs. Motivation is easily lost when you have to hunt down someone who wants to go to the same crag. Of course, I could just boulder instead...
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I could just boulder instead...
As per earlier, that's what happened when my partner / climbing partner and I had to start sharing parental responsibilites.
I know what you mean though, I can remember the frustration, but also having one of my best days soloing ever at Rylstone when my planned partner didn't pitch.
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I found the pandemic was great for having climbing partners available because no-one was going off on holiday and lots of people were working from home so could get out earlier in the evenings.
I only really do lowish-grade ground-up trad these days though which makes me and the people I climb with a lot more flexible on venue.
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Thank you for the supportive comments above everyone. Paul B, re pandemic motivation loss, probably the most influential factor is that its more difficult to find climbing partners, unless, like you, your partner also climbs. Motivation is easily lost when you have to hunt down someone who wants to go to the same crag. Of course, I could just boulder instead...
An interesting alternative is to get injured enough that you can't go to any of the usual, reliable "easy to meet people" sport crags in the Peak / Yorkshire. And of course can't just boulder instead... Definitely adds a bit of flavour to the situation.
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Thank you for the supportive comments above everyone. Paul B, re pandemic motivation loss, probably the most influential factor is that its more difficult to find climbing partners, unless, like you, your partner also climbs. Motivation is easily lost when you have to hunt down someone who wants to go to the same crag. Of course, I could just boulder instead...
An interesting alternative is to get injured enough that you can't go to any of the usual, reliable "easy to meet people" sport crags in the Peak / Yorkshire. And of course can't just boulder instead... Definitely adds a bit of flavour to the situation.
Is this where you are? I'm far too weak to make it worth going to the Yorkshire crags or most of the decent peak venues. Easy trad on the other hand...
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i just mirror what tom briggs said early on , fingers are still strong .im still relatively strong from 10 years of lifting weights even though i havent for 3 years. what is very noticable is explosive power. if i was bothered and wanted to sort the issue id just target those moves. find problems at the wall or outdoors that trigger those muscles.