(exactly the same way andy went, 7A/+ as a highball grade)
The corollary would seem to be that *lowball* grades take lack of height into account. I was trying a V3 last night with an English 6b move (Cheshire sandstone) ...which seems harsh. Tougher grades for 2 fierce moves off the ground?
So to take some real life examples, The Great Flake at Caley gets touted as 7B. I'm absolutely sure that the climbing at the top of the flake is not 7B, but I have no idea how hard it actually is.
If The Great Flake was 7B near the top then I wouldn't even try it. If it's 6C or less then I might be game. I don't need the grade to be inflated for height/risk because the risks are abundantly obvious from the floor.
Sorry to be starting another grades thread.
From the Franco thread:Quote(exactly the same way andy went, 7A/+ as a highball grade)
I normally wouldn't read too much into this but in light of some recent conversations I've had, I think there might be some confusion around this.
Part 1 of the question is: What is your understanding of how the Font grade is currently used on highballs? Does the Font grade creep up if there are hard moves at height, making it scarier? In a similar fashion to an adjectival trad grade describing the totality of the physical difficulty and the gear situation.
Part 2 of the question is: Do you think this should be the case?
Sorry to be starting another grades thread.
From the Franco thread:Quote(exactly the same way andy went, 7A/+ as a highball grade)
I normally wouldn't read too much into this but in light of some recent conversations I've had, I think there might be some confusion around this.
Part 1 of the question is: What is your understanding of how the Font grade is currently used on highballs? Does the Font grade creep up if there are hard moves at height, making it scarier? In a similar fashion to an adjectival trad grade describing the totality of the physical difficulty and the gear situation.
Part 2 of the question is: Do you think this should be the case?
If only we already had a grading system that took into account how scary, sustained and difficult a climb was.. ;)
You've beautifully demonstrated the reason why the status quo works so well - boulder grades are used for moves, E grades for highballs.
Sorry to be starting another grades thread.
From the Franco thread:Quote(exactly the same way andy went, 7A/+ as a highball grade)
I normally wouldn't read too much into this but in light of some recent conversations I've had, I think there might be some confusion around this.
Part 1 of the question is: What is your understanding of how the Font grade is currently used on highballs? Does the Font grade creep up if there are hard moves at height, making it scarier? In a similar fashion to an adjectival trad grade describing the totality of the physical difficulty and the gear situation.
Part 2 of the question is: Do you think this should be the case?
If only we already had a grading system that took into account how scary, sustained and difficult a climb was.. ;)
You've beautifully demonstrated the reason why the status quo works so well - boulder grades are used for moves, E grades for highballs. The desire for people to start using font grades for highballs is just fashion. Of course now padding has improved, a few of the old short solos may need a slight down-grade, but the E-grade still works fine.
E grades don't have to mean a risk of death - there were always plenty of totally safe routes they were used for.
How do they handle this in Fontainebleau?
I think I read somewhere they stick a grade on eg 7A up to 7A+.
So I guess we should also add a grade to sport grades if the bolts are far apart? Can anyone explain how this is different?
So I guess we should also add a grade to sport grades if the bolts are far apart? Can anyone explain how this is different?
So I guess we should also add a grade to sport grades if the bolts are far apart? Can anyone explain how this is different?
Spring Slab comes to mind, which used to get 6C, now 7A. And you have to remember that Ben Finley has failed to climb Spring Slab on two separate occasions but did Psycho first go with a hole in the toe of his shoe.
:agree:
That's exactly the way the BMC Peak Grit guides have been doing it for 13 years or so, and I think it works great for giving the relevant information (and in that case then no, the pure bouldering grade should not take into account height). Obviously the pure trad grade will be of little relevance to anyone apart from a few idiots like DT and myself who still use beer towels, but when combined with the bloque grade it describes the highballness very well.
The approach we're taking is to take climbs that are commonly being done in a highball fashion and to ascribe them a grade like this:
Psycho f6B+ (E5 6b) ***
hillbilly grade
Marylebone Jelly
That shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody, Steve. They're old solos and in the past 15 years or so we've gone from beer towels to everyone carrying around at least 10 Ocun Dominators. These routes were always at the easy end of the grade because they were bold.Maybe we should go back to old school grading for these routes. I.e. if it’s shortish and survivable to fall off. It’s HVS and the tech grade tells you the difficulty. This is why stuff like the Knock, Opus, Sour Grapes and Rotifer were HVS, if they are getting abit high and hard. Then mild extreme should cover it. ;)
Slip n' Slide gets french 6b+ on the Grit List, belying a Font grade in the low 6s - when was the last time anyone on here fell off a 6b+? Still, you don't see people queueing for it, do you?
They still are a bit bold, but nowhere near as bold as they were if approached above pad mountains. Even the safe but cruxy E5s on grit have got cruxes that are sub Font 7 (i.e. Flame Arete, Strapadictomy).
I think the Font grade of a lot of harder grit routes is relatively low. I've not done Marrowbone, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were 6C. 6C is hard! What would End of the Affair get if there was flat ground below the crux? 6B+?
The other thing is to imagine some 'easy' boulder problems if they wee at 6m. The photograph, E7 6c. Hourglass, E6 6b. Pebble Arete is 6 feet away from being E5 6a. Strawberries, E8 6c. Fuck, imagine doing Strawberries and if you fell off you'd break your pelvis.
A few random thoughts:
Finally, please tell me that Great Flake is at least 7A or a bit harder (7A+ maybe).
A few random thoughts:
Finally, please tell me that Great Flake is at least 7A or a bit harder (7A+ maybe).
I thought it was about V5 (whats that 6C+?) but you wanted to be climbing 7B/C confidently on the grit!!
8B climber in "not being able to grade 6C+ for toffee" shocker.That seems to be the way these days. On the thread about the meaningless of grades Will talks about getting confident at E3, which given he’s bouldered 7c+ gives him quite a bit in hand.
Something does strike me as a bit awry when you have to have 5 grades confidently in hand....although maybe that's the point!
I do hope webbo is co-writing the book with Will....
Very much off topic but is the NSFW, which I believe stands for Not Safe For Women, a little bit sexist??
Very much off topic but is the NSFW, which I believe stands for Not Safe For Women, a little bit sexist??
And the FA should try to put themselves into an un-scared mindset when grading it afterwards.
Very much off topic but is the NSFW, which I believe stands for Not Safe For Women, a little bit sexist??
Not Safe For Work
Probably putting me in the sexist camp. Sorry
PMSL
PMSL
First there were trad grades, then there were bouldering grades, then there were highball grades, and now we need headpoint-for-a-pad-protected-ascent grades.
I think the quandary comes from the blurring of styles. It sounds like your approach is like headpointing (i.e. working it on a rope) but stops before getting to the point where you climb it with your brain turned off, and then the ascent is protected with pads and you actually take the falls, i.e highballing.
On your Instagram you say that the falls left you "bruised and battered", which might mean that this isn't a reasonable ground-up prospect? Personally if I saw a Font grade only I'd expect to be able to highball it (which, as a general rule, I think of as ground up above pads). So you might consider a split grade of E x (Font y), though I can see why that might seem unwieldy. At the very least I'd mark out any which might be long shots to ground up so people know what to come prepared for, and then give Font grades that reflect the difficulty of the climbing only - you can tell the rest of the story in the text i.e "a very on-off crux right at the top".
Happy to put the guide on Unknown Stones when you're done if you'd like.
I'm thinking about this right now because i'm working on a guide for the bouldering at Hawkcliffe (around 30 new problems!) and there are a few highballs, which unfortunately will need a grade for the guide to be useful.
The crag is on private land with no public right of way. However, in 1997 the BMC negotiated an access agreement for climbers by kind permission of the landowner. Take care not to upset the owner of the land above the crag. Shooting activities often take place here, so exercise caution. Dogs are not allowed. Create a minimum of disturbance to wildlife. Keep gardening to a minimum. Leave no litter.
Whats the route name if its already been claimed? Might a bomber cam/wire make it feel considerably less nails? Also possible something has come off.
Desperate to try Charlie Don't Surf E8 up there now to compare as this felt harder than other E6's / E7's!
Desperate to try Charlie Don't Surf E8 up there now to compare as this felt harder than other E6's / E7's!
Yikes, super bold. Wouldn't be surprised if the hardest moves at the crag were on Visions in Tan – haven't tried it, just going on reputations! Buzz Caner might also be a useful comparator for 7B+, and it stays cool in the rift.
I'm not sure which one Visions in Tan is yet as I've only been going off UKC's lacking descriptions. I'll try and borrow a guide. However, I'd be surprised if it has the hardest moves at the crag - I've been working on a new boulder which feels absolutely miles harder than anything I've ever tried and probably needs someone stronger than me to do it. 8B maybe? Any takers? I've also added other new boulders up to around 7C+ so far.
Any idea how to get on top of Charlie Don't Surf or Buzz Caner to put a rope down them?
I reckon 6C at the most for Charlie
It is bold but I could never decide how bold.
Felt like a very bold but not too hard e6 to the peg, and then crux after, but was very unsure about the reliability of the peg, it looks fairly good.
But was scared of unwisely convincing myself it was fine.
I reckon 6C at the most for Charlie
It is bold but I could never decide how bold.
Felt like a very bold but not too hard e6 to the peg, and then crux after, but was very unsure about the reliability of the peg, it looks fairly good.
But was scared of unwisely convincing myself it was fine.
Is that the same peg that you use on Driveby? That's been on the list for a couple of years but if the peg is shit I might change my mind.
Well the retroclaim is in and allegedly it's E4 6b :o This seems unlikely considering I've onsighted E5's above pads which were trivial in comparison.
I was leaning towards font 7B+ from a pure difficulty standpoint. If the original grade is correct then I am very bad at climbing but at least my ignorance gave me the same experience as a true first ascent on this one ;D
Well the retroclaim is in and allegedly it's E4 6b :o This seems unlikely considering I've onsighted E5's above pads which were trivial in comparison.
I was leaning towards font 7B+ from a pure difficulty standpoint. If the original grade is correct then I am very bad at climbing but at least my ignorance gave me the same experience as a true first ascent on this one ;D
I think there's some bits at the cliff that are E4 6C and font 7B so not a million miles off. Think West Side Story originally got e4 6c too for example?
Think West Side Story originally got e4 6c too for example?
I'm not sure which one Visions in Tan is yet as I've only been going off UKC's lacking descriptions. I'll try and borrow a guide. However, I'd be surprised if it has the hardest moves at the crag - I've been working on a new boulder which feels absolutely miles harder than anything I've ever tried and probably needs someone stronger than me to do it. 8B maybe? Any takers? I've also added other new boulders up to around 7C+ so far.
Any idea how to get on top of Charlie Don't Surf or Buzz Caner to put a rope down them?
Visions in Tan goes up the wall left of Charlie, starting in the chimney then breaking out right at the pegs. Uptown and Nik at Work on here have done it and might be able to divulge some of their mysterious vertical ways… Don't recall anything special about access to the top of these routes.
Dan Honneyman unearthed some bouldering below the main crag back in the early '00s, after some serious gardening efforts. Probably never recorded and reclaimed by the jungle.
Desperate to try Charlie Don't Surf E8 up there now to compare as this felt harder than other E6's / E7's!
Yikes, super bold. Wouldn't be surprised if the hardest moves at the crag were on Visions in Tan – haven't tried it, just going on reputations! Buzz Caner might also be a useful comparator for 7B+, and it stays cool in the rift.
Buzz Caner looks good! I'm not sure which one Visions in Tan is yet as I've only been going off UKC's lacking descriptions. I'll try and borrow a guide. However, I'd be surprised if it has the hardest moves at the crag - I've been working on a new boulder which feels absolutely miles harder than anything I've ever tried and probably needs someone stronger than me to do it. 8B maybe? Any takers? I've also added other new boulders up to around 7C+ so far.
Any idea how to get on top of Charlie Don't Surf or Buzz Caner to put a rope down them?
I don't know why there's all this debate when we have well designed tool to sort all of these things out, without having to rely on such poxy nonsense as "feelings" and "experience".Well, there continues to be debate because this is an on-line forum therefore it must have content to thrive and survive.
https://egrader.co.uk/
I don't know why there's all this debate when we have well designed tool to sort all of these things out, without having to rely on such poxy nonsense as "feelings" and "experience".Well, there continues to be debate because this is an on-line forum therefore it must have content to thrive and survive.
https://egrader.co.uk/
In a wider context, what would climbers talk about if there wasnt this stuff to talk about?
For me, as i wizz headlong toward the feiry gates and inevitable oblivion...I give less and less of my time worrying or discussing the intricacies of grades{unless it is done tongue in cheek}.
Funny you mention feelings and experiences as That is what i will spend a lot of time discussing with climbing chums, a bit like trying to describe dancing to an Alien or why a peice of art or music moves you.
Anyway, carry on :)
I'm not saying the Dawning is E4, but the fact that it was led and Mark must, at the time at least, have thought you could just get away with a fall from the crux will have depressed the grade a bit. There's more than a number grade worth of range in the bouldering grades that are given to mid-Es and a lot of it does make sense when the context of where the difficulties lie is considered.
I know these are only two examples but font 7B does not belong on an E4 and never did and I’m struggling to think of E5s with that level of climbing
I know these are only two examples but font 7B does not belong on an E4 and never did and I’m struggling to think of E5s with that level of climbing
One Man and His Dogmas and True Pebble Wall at Caley? I think Edge of Darkness at Earl already mentioned.
Not a death fall? You might not die but you’d be incredibly lucky to walk away. You’d need a serious number of pads or a snow platform to make it a highball. It’s no harder than a purple at the Depot but hesitate on that last move and… urgh.
Have you stood underneath Simba's Pride?
Not a death fall? You might not die but you’d be incredibly lucky to walk away. You’d need a serious number of pads or a snow platform to make it a highball. It’s no harder than a purple at the Depot but hesitate on that last move and… urgh.
Liam’s idea of a:-\safe highballtrad and trad grades is very different to most people :lol:
Liamhutch go buy a set of hexes and get on some Hard Severes to start trad and then work up to E8 :2thumbsup:
Worth remembering that there's a load of different shades of grey in what people think of as highballing. To get a rope down it and try all the moves and feel all the holds is a world away from doing something ground up above pads, which is what I'd think of as a highball.
It doesn't matter how people do stuff, but when describing it in conversation it's worth qualifying it. From the sounds of it Simba's would be much harder to do GU than headpoint.
It’s funny when people just divide deckouts into death and not death. That second category is really pretty broad.
Worth remembering that there's a load of different shades of grey in what people think of as highballing. To get a rope down it and try all the moves and feel all the holds is a world away from doing something ground up above pads, which is what I'd think of as a highball.
It doesn't matter how people do stuff, but when describing it in conversation it's worth qualifying it. From the sounds of it Simba's would be much harder to do GU than headpoint.
Fair enough if that's your idea of highballing (and it's the most ethically sound), but I don't think that's what most people think of when they hear highball. At the top level (e.g. Mellow crew) you always see them trying the moves on a rope. And most people I know who have done something high that's not a path have practiced it on a rope first. Agree that being honest on the style is important.
My point is that there's plenty of things that height which don't get E8. Not sure if this photo link will work, but I think Red Alfa is a similar height with a poor landing and is harder than 6C+ (maybe 7A+/7B), but only gets E6. If you fell it would likely be uncontrolled and possibly on your back too! https://www.instagram.com/p/CrehdKMNy2k/
Worth remembering that there's a load of different shades of grey in what people think of as highballing. To get a rope down it and try all the moves and feel all the holds is a world away from doing something ground up above pads, which is what I'd think of as a highball.
It doesn't matter how people do stuff, but when describing it in conversation it's worth qualifying it. From the sounds of it Simba's would be much harder to do GU than headpoint.
Fair enough if that's your idea of highballing (and it's the most ethically sound), but I don't think that's what most people think of when they hear highball. At the top level (e.g. Mellow crew) you always see them trying the moves on a rope. And most people I know who have done something high that's not a path have practiced it on a rope first. Agree that being honest on the style is important.
Agree with that, I think the vast majority take the word highball to simply describe a higher than average boulder problem climbed above pads, just as lowball describes a lower than average boulder problem. Pre-practice etc. is completely irrelevant.
Agree with that, I think the vast majority take the word highball to simply describe a higher than average boulder problem climbed above pads, just as lowball describes a lower than average boulder problem. Pre-practice etc. is completely irrelevant.
Agree with that, I think the vast majority take the word highball to simply describe a higher than average boulder problem climbed above pads, just as lowball describes a lower than average boulder problem. Pre-practice etc. is completely irrelevant.
I'm probably unusual but I still think of most highballing, as most people do it, as not being practiced on a rope. I would see Livin Large/ the mellow videos etc as the exception rather than the normal rule, the 'normal' way being to clean holds if necessary but do the climbing ground up. Once the high moves have been dialled for me its a solo RP with pads rather than highball bouldering, but this is proper splitting hairs stuff.
Agree with that, I think the vast majority take the word highball to simply describe a higher than average boulder problem climbed above pads, just as lowball describes a lower than average boulder problem. Pre-practice etc. is completely irrelevant.
I'm probably unusual but I still think of most highballing, as most people do it, as not being practiced on a rope. I would see Livin Large/ the mellow videos etc as the exception rather than the normal rule, the 'normal' way being to clean holds if necessary but do the climbing ground up. Once the high moves have been dialled for me its a solo RP with pads rather than highball bouldering, but this is proper splitting hairs stuff.
Ethics and style are two different things. Ethically I don't think anybody cares any more, but you definitely get more cred for doing something in ground up style.
....says one of the poster boys of the insta-generation :-\Ethics and style are two different things. Ethically I don't think anybody cares any more, but you definitely get more cred for doing something in ground up style.
Maybe if you’re 14 years old and care about ‘street cred’ :lol:
Agree with that, I think the vast majority take the word highball to simply describe a higher than average boulder problem climbed above pads, just as lowball describes a lower than average boulder problem. Pre-practice etc. is completely irrelevant.
I'm probably unusual but I still think of most highballing, as most people do it, as not being practiced on a rope. I would see Livin Large/ the mellow videos etc as the exception rather than the normal rule, the 'normal' way being to clean holds if necessary but do the climbing ground up. Once the high moves have been dialled for me its a solo RP with pads rather than highball bouldering, but this is proper splitting hairs stuff.
Your climbing cohort is a lot more ethically pure than mine! Anything remotely high usually involves ladders, ropes, or both.
....says one of the poster boys of the insta-generation :-\Ethics and style are two different things. Ethically I don't think anybody cares any more, but you definitely get more cred for doing something in ground up style.
Maybe if you’re 14 years old and care about ‘street cred’ :lol:
Not really. I took a lot of pride in doing something ground up last year when it would have been easy to drop a rope down it first. I haven't been 14 for a long time. Obviously optional but thats the point of the discussion.
Maybe if you’re 14 years old and care about ‘street cred’ :lol:
Grade this-
Grade this-
3 stars is the most important metric for this.
Choose your own poison, but don't disparage the one others choose. Some savour the full "feeling and experience" while they are on the route, others enjoy post success feeling of accomplishment.
I wonder how many people would brave a ground up of Sparrow at Cratcliffe…
Fun? Who does this for fun? It's a serious matter this climbing. :)
Choose your own poison, but don't disparage the one others choose. Some savour the full "feeling and experience" while they are on the route, others enjoy post success feeling of accomplishment.
Choose your own poison, but don't disparage the one others choose. Some savour the full "feeling and experience" while they are on the route, others enjoy post success feeling of accomplishment.
What rubbish, I'm only in it for external validation. I want, nay need, to know if others are proud of me!
garnishing likes.
Choose your own poison, but don't disparage the one others choose. Some savour the full "feeling and experience" while they are on the route, others enjoy post success feeling of accomplishment.
What rubbish, I'm only in it for external validation. I want, nay need, to know if others are proud of me!
All about the green tick on IGs and garnishing likes.