UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Kingy on August 03, 2015, 08:19:58 pm
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According to Facebook Neil has done the deed and climbed his big roof project above Hardy Annual which I understand has crux moves through the initial roof and then joins a rail leading rightwards into Mandella, up which it finishes. Awesome work Neil! :strongbench: :icon_beerchug:
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Great work! I'd be interested to hear about his prep for this route - it appears to have consisted of a mix of dieting, creatine and Haston-ation.
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looks really cool, when Neil was working it. Congrats on the ascent.
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Had a quick play on the first crux of this at end of the day on Sunday, it seemed ace, well good addition to the crag
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Roof climbing is ace.
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That's ace news
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Dave Stainy told us about this route, made it sound way harder than 8c!
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What's the breakdown?
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I heard the crux move was V9 but I may be wrong. Neil put a detailed topo up on his Facebook page with the grades of the individual sections
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I'd expect some pretty nice footage being released at some point soon from Lukas W (I'm not even going to try and spell his name from memory).
Good effort Gresh.
Having been up in the roof when he's been having a burn the moves on this look really good.
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Vertical 7b into 7C into 8b? Sounds a lot harder than something like Bat Route.
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Gresh improved his beta for first crux, said it felt like 7B with his final method
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Dave Stainy told us about this route, made it sound way harder than 8c!
It is certainly an impressive line and looks very hard ..... However how hard something looks to someone watching is irrelevant. Neil climbed it and he is in the best position to give it a grade. Superb effort.
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Great work! I'd be interested to hear about his prep for this route - it appears to have consisted of a mix of dieting, creatine and Haston-ation.
and yoga to help recovery in the awkward resting positions too... Haston-ation - hard RPing followed by weighted pulls?
"I told you so" - Lund
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Did I hear Barrows has repeated this?
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You did, he did.
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Effort! :strongbench:
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and did some excellent JStar-inspired take-the-higher-grade-but-say-its-the-lower-grade 8a.nu spray
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Did I fuck. Need to do epic adventures and guns in the sky to decide but my current leaning is 8c
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And then some JStar-inspired forum backtracking
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Irrespective, it's ace, up there with the likes of true north and bat route in quality terms IMO
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And then some JStar-inspired waffle about it being all about the experience.
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Irrespective, it's ace, up there with the likes of true north and bat route in quality terms IMO
And then some JStar-inspired waffle about it being all about the experience.
I wish the experience was over in some respects but I would agree the route is amongst the best in Yorkshire (and therefore the UK).
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And then some JStar-inspired waffle about it being all about the experience.
Okay so it's taken many years, but finally that has made me LOL and warmed me to you, 3-9. Brilliant :lol:
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Yup, that was perfect comedy timing. Barrows, you got done :-)
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Stop hating on the geez
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To be fair to 3-9, if you're going to be a cunt, you might as well be a funny cunt.
Oh, and good arrows, Barrows.
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And he's done another
Chuffed to have started up Ron Fawcett's Extreme Rock classic, Deja Vu today and continued directly through the roof via Pete Gomersall & Jill Lawrence's 1975 aid line (with a slight deviation). I've left the clips in Premonition 8b+ so fill your boots boys & girls.[/url]
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Chuffed to have started up Ron Fawcett's Extreme Rock classic, Deja Vu today and continued directly through the roof via Pete Gomersall & Jill Lawrence's 1975 aid line (with a slight deviation). I've left the clips in Premonition 8b+ so fill your boots boys & girls.[/url]
More on Premonition here: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69952
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Nice one but Neil's blasé attitude about retro-bolting the start of Deja Vu (and the middle of it by the sounds of it) is sad to read. It's an Extreme Rock E5 FFS and a very memorable one for E5 leaders, as the climbing is quite hard. I generally don't care that much thesedays about bolts appearing on chossy Peak lime, but this is a 3-star classic on perfect rock at Kilnsey. Why doesn't he just replace the threads and pre-clip them? The start is 7a climbing and the route is 8b+? Seems like he's lost his marbles. And everyone knows that Big Ron can be found at the Works any day of the week, so more likely he's ignoring you Neil.
Next it'll be Wiseblood (an absolutely stonking and hard E6 to the left) that gets retroed and then no doubt Balas :'(
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Nice one but Neil's blasé attitude about retro-bolting the start of Deja Vu (and the middle of it by the sounds of it) is sad to read.
I had similar concerns after reading the UKC article. In Neil's defence it's not clear if the one bolt he added is actually on, or clippable whilst climbing, Deja Vu. According to the UKC article "A new bolt on the lower wall now enables the middle section of Visitation to be linked to the upper groove of Deja Vu". Maybe Neil, or someone else, could clarify?
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He mentioned this on fcbk a year ago about retro bolting the start of those routes. I had the temerity to disagree with him and was rounded on by his braying sycophants who've seen him on BBC breakfast.
Apart from that I was disappointed by Neil's attitude.
I'm gossiping here but the thread is on his FB wall somewhere.
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I led Deja Vu for the umpteenth time a few months ago and I was surprised to find an extra bolt in it. The new bolt is actually on Visitation and not the original line of Deja Vu.
However I agree with the above sentiments that there is no need for it and as Tom says it will only encourage more people to question whether to retro other trad routes.
I'm almost tempted to take it out!
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Doubt most would mind if it came out, could always go up visitation
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He mentioned this on fcbk a year ago about retro bolting the start of those routes. I had the temerity to disagree with him and was rounded on by his braying sycophants who've seen him on BBC breakfast.
I'm gossiping here but the thread is on his FB wall somewhere.
Might be gossip but the point is a good one and that's a fine turn of phrase :)
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the start is still on the threads isn't it? Steve Crowe replaced these earlier in the year.
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Yes the start is still on the same threads
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The start is definitely still on the threads. I am not sure utterly certain, and stand to be corrected, but I think Steve Crowe either replaced or added new bolts on Visitation and/or Diminishing Returns last year (which are share the same start but end left of Deja Vu) - but left the start on threads to retain the slightly artificial trad-ness of Deja Vu (supposedly the thread placements are drilled - so it is hardly "natural" gear).
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I'm almost tempted to take it out!
I think you should if you're there. Quality trad challenges should be left as the challenges they are for those that want it.
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Nice one but Neil's blasé attitude about retro-bolting the start of Deja Vu (and the middle of it by the sounds of it) is sad to read. It's an Extreme Rock E5 FFS and a very memorable one for E5 leaders, as the climbing is quite hard.
Hopefully this doesn't come across sycophantic, I had a discussion with Neil about this at the crag (before this thread) and he didn't come across blasé about it at all. I think he'd asked/discussed replacing the lower threads with bolts, the general consensus was no, so it didn't/hasn't happened.
Having enjoyed a couple of these trad routes a long time ago I'm not keen for more bolts. This issue was raised recently (perhaps in reference to face value[!], either on the Yorks. Lime lifts FB page or the Yorks. Bolt Fund FB page and I think this position was defended.
Out of interest, which of the threads are drilled?
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The quote I'm referring to is on a news item on UKC
"I tried to track down big Ron to ask if he minded me replacing the first two threads on Deja Vu with bolts but he's something of an enigma these days and so the tats remain! Maybe a certain local old-school purist has kidnapped him, who knows."
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"Tats remain" implies threads remain?
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I'm almost tempted to take it out!
I think you should if you're there. Quality trad challenges should be left as the challenges they are for those that want it.
Like the Superdirectissima? Strikes me that this is a very different proposition now Hardy Annual has been rebolted.
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Out of interest, which of the threads are drilled?
Can't recall which of the three threads are drilled - might be all or only one of them - half-recalled gossip from Dave (he has been working Diminishing Returns) - I'll ask when he returns from holiday.
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he has been working; diminishing returns
Sounds like my life.
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I'll ask if he returns from holiday.
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The threads were replaced tonight with two glue-ins. I believe this was after gaining the permission of both Pete Gomersall and Big Ron.
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Let the games commence!
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/13/de18181e871246848a6e4df1b5c80c37.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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"Please 'like' this post if you're on my side" - and if we're not?
Maybe Neil can name his next retrobolted new route "Confirmation Bias".
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There are still 2 green threads in the original line of Deja Vu. One of the problems is that the routes are now so close to each other that its difficult to know which holds go with which route. Bit like bouldering I suppose!
Neils route has the same start as Deja Vu but then follows Visitation for a few bolts before stepping right in to the niche and top wall of Deja Vu ( which has always been bolted)! At least I think I'm correct with that
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Not done these routes but I would have liked to. Like White Gold I suspect I'm unlikely to now. As with Tom's opinion would seem valid. The crucial point to me would seem to be whether the threads drilled or not.
Having spoken to Ron about bolting I'm sure his 'times change' comment means he's a nice guy and not about to stand in the way of what the next generation see as progress. Not that he's enthusiastic about it.
'I find it breathtaking that he should tell us how we should equip our own climb' works both ways doesn't it.
I'm sure there's something significant in the fact that gross acts of retrobolting are almost always carried out by the over-forties, but I'm not sure what exactly.
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It sounds like the thread issue is a bit hazy in this case, but good on you guys for standing up and questioning the bolting. In some cases re/retrobolting will be the right thing to do but I think if there's any doubt it should be questioned and fought against if necessary.
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'I find it breathtaking that he should tell us how we should equip our own climb' works both ways doesn't it.
Agreed.
Although I can understand the arguments for replacing the threads with a bolt, I'm still a bit grumpy about it. As I recall, the threads were quite far off the ground and there is the potential for a nasty ground fall whilst climbing up to them. It could be argued that this is one of the reasons the route should be E5 rather than 7a. My concern is that now there is a bolt where the threads used to be, someone might feel it's a good idea to add another bolt at the start to make it safer.
For me, the real issue is the 'extra bolt' higher up, which if it can be clipped on the run out of Déjà vu certainly changes the character of the route. Unless I've missed, Neil has responded to comments on this.
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As I've stated on Facebook, I think Neil may have been having his leg rather publically pulled on this one as general crag banter was very reasoned and the only bolt really raising any eyebrows was the upper one.
My concern is that now there is a bolt where the threads used to be, someone might feel it's a good idea to add another bolt at the start to make it safer.
Perhaps, although you can stick clip it, like you could the threads (and like I did the other week) so I'd be surprised if anyone does so in the near future (and I'd put money on it disappearing rapidly should it happen). I can see this raising the Face Value discussion again but that was well discussed only a month or so ago with a resounding 'No'.
I'm sure there's something significant in the fact that gross acts of retrobolting are almost always carried out by the over-forties, but I'm not sure what exactly.
So, given the permissions gained etc., the timing (i.e. waiting), what would you have aspiring retro-bolters do differently (if you are to accept that SOME routes are valid candidates)?
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Discussion on an open forum- I.e. UKB or UKC.
Strangely enough as of an hour ago I can view the thread on Facebook but can't comment. Neil claims it's because forums are 'wrecked by trolls' which sounds a lot like he isn't up for an open debate.
I don't know the area well enough personally, but the arguments raised seem weak. The ludicrous claim that you can still do your E5 by ignoring by the boots is there of course. Well why not bolt everything then? Props to Stu for making some fair points in the face of a very unbalanced crowd. Shame Neil appears to repeatedly ignore his questions over the higher bolt.
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Neil claims it's because forums are 'wrecked by trolls'
Sloper will still be out celebrating Corbyn's win, so there's never been a better opportunity for avoiding climbing trolls
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Discussion on an open forum- I.e. UKB or UKC.
To what end though? The arguments are well known, this has been going on since the 80s, no one ever changes their mind everyone is too entrenched. The argument about not clipping the bolts is totally ridiculous, I agree, but to imply that's the main argument in favour of the bolts is disingenuous. In fact one of the people making the argument has a trad pedigree to shame most and so I think she is, ironically, trolling.
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Strangely enough as of an hour ago I can view the thread on Facebook but can't comment. Neil claims it's because forums are 'wrecked by trolls' which sounds a lot like he isn't up for an open debate.
The ludicrous claim that you can still do your E5 by ignoring by the boots is there of course. Well why not bolt everything then? Props to Stu for making some fair points in the face of a very unbalanced crowd.
I had a look at that facebook page of NG's - maybe I'm too naive but I just assume that most people are either intelligent enough, or so well-versed, following 6000 years of debate, in both sides of the bolt debate these days that literally everyone was like me and rolling their eyes in despair and assuming either mental retardation at the bird who said 'you don't have to clip the bolts' (or good trolling skills?).
Discussion on an open forum- I.e. UKB or UKC.
Strangely enough as of an hour ago I can view the thread on Facebook but can't comment. Neil claims it's because forums are 'wrecked by trolls' which sounds a lot like he isn't up for an open debate.
If asked to come up with the worst methods of holding productive sensible discussions about bolting, I'd place UKC at the bottom with poorly represented BMC meetings (consisting of two people on either side of the debate and a bunch of HVS climbers there for the curry) just above, and UKB only just above them. Well represented BMC meetings with a well-chaired debate would sit above UKB.
The best way would be asking the opinions of a relatively small number of locals of different generations and holding differing viewpoints. Which is possibly what NG did, I don't know.
I don't know the area well enough personally, but the arguments raised seem weak.
Sounds to me like you don't have a valid stake in the matter of this specific route then, no matter you're experience elsewhere. And should leave it to the very small number of people who do. Just like me.
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Well represented BMC meetings with a well-chaired debate would sit above UKB.
Would there still be curry involved though?
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Seems odd that there's a presumption to escalate the amount and quality of fixed gear in a route rather than to reduce or eliminate it. Maybe a better thing for Déjà Vu might be to climb it in improved style (i.e. without threads), perhaps making it a classier, bolder wall climb? Let's face it, bolting Déjà Vu was just an expedient way to access the roof where the meat of the climbing starts.
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Sounds to me like you don't have a valid stake in the matter of this specific route the
Well I've always had ambitions of doing the classic trad extreme rock ticks at Kilnsey, so I think that buys me a stake. But I'll admit I don't know enough about the route to say imho it's right or wrong. But reading that infantile 'support' I'm thinking it's 2015 and if you are sparking a bolt debate at all it's probably a sign you've stepped over the mark. And let's face it, if Stu Littlefair thinks you've gone too far you probably have, he's hardly Ken fucking Wilson is he?
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Ken Wilson only managed 8c+.
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Well I've always had ambitions of doing the classic trad extreme rock ticks at Kilnsey, so I think that buys me a stake.
You live in Sheffield don't you? From there you could be uncoiling your ropes at the bottom of the route in less time than it takes me to walk up the path to Cloggy. You wouldn't even have to drive there as each summer weekend there are car loads of Sheffieldites making the journey. Its at a grade that you could have climbed on any given weekend for what, the last 10, 15, longer years? So this stake of yours, how much is it worth given you've shown only a notional interest in the route in all that time?
I did the route in 1994 and my abiding memory of it was of the fixed gear, not the first two threads but all the way up, I remember having horrendous rope drag and I wasn't on a single rope. The bottom bit I remember very little of and today's climbers, used to steep rock from indoor walls etc., won't even notice it, especially as they'll probably throw a pad or two down. I know the bottom is unaffected by the bolts I'm just pointing out that the route was very much of its time. It has evolved and the new bolts are just part of that evolution it was never particularly bold, it was never intended as such it was just equiped as it was for pragmatic reasons. On the day I Deja Vu I also did Central Wall and the Diedre both of which were ace, proper trad routes and neither will be bolted despite the various straw man arguments I've heard. In my 100 plus visits since then I've only ever seen one other team on the Diedre and it is now very grassy, if you want to bequeath something to the future generation of Kilnsey trad climbers you'd be better off giving that an ascent and clean than complaining about something that makes no material difference to a route.
I'm not getting at you or anyone in particular, I'm not even strongly in favour of the bolts (I was against the bolts going in the bottom of Sticky Wicket/The Ashes, no fuss about them mind) just offering a perspective.
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I remember doing the Superdirectissima on trad gear 10 years before that; quite exciting back then and pretty hard for me at the time. Personally I'd like the bolts to stay off the old trad routes, they'd be better experiences for it.
If people don't want to do them so what. It's not Centre Parks is it?
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People have accidents at Centre Parks too you know
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-108234/Terror-blaze-rages-Centre-Parcs.html
Sounds fucking terrifying, give me a faux E5 anyday
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You live in Sheffield don't you? From there you could be uncoiling your ropes at the bottom of the route in less time than it takes me to walk up the path to Cloggy. You wouldn't even have to drive there as each summer weekend there are car loads of Sheffieldites making the journey. Its at a grade that you could have climbed on any given weekend for what, the last 10, 15, longer years? So this stake of yours, how much is it worth given you've shown only a notional interest in the route in all that time?
That's a bollox argument (the same one was misused against me by some bellend in the Ratho retrobolting debate). JB could have many reasons for not getting the route done until now: He might not have heard of it until recently, he might have only got into Lime climbing in the last few years, he might have many other climbing or indeed non-climbing priorities - and either way he'd probably have assumed that someone wouldn't have fucked with the "trad" status of the route, although that's maybe an optimistic assumption in this day and age. Generally you don't assume that your route inspirations will just disappear, unless it's on the Culm or the Lleyn!
Not getting at you or anyone in particular as yours was an otherwise sensible post.
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Well he doesn't have to clip the bolts does he. Tsk...
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I don't have experience of the route to comment on whether or not I think the bolts are appropriate.
However, I am disappointed by the arrogant notion that a significant route doesn't require discussion beyond asking FA permission. If anybody "owns" these routes it's us as a community. I hope at least that discussion was raised at the crag regarding it. The avenues for discussion might be imperfect, but this was a route that deserved that.
FWIW I don't think it's particularly relevant whether the threads were drilled, I don't think that on its own is justification to drill more holes in it.
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That's a bollox argument.
It may be (and possibly more vitriolic than I intended so apologies JB) but then you go and make an even more bollox argument "he might not have heard of it until recently" indeed. The point is I'm not sure why this route is getting so much attention, I know it's in ER but beyond that? If it were that good it would be done frequently as it is safe, not intimidating and even stays dry in the rain. It's one of those things that people like the idea of but really don't actually care about that much in reality, like those expensive gift shops in places like Harrogate or Didsbury selling handmade cards and wooden toys.
The good news is that mountain crags have never been safer from bolts than they are now.
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However, I am disappointed by the arrogant notion that a significant route doesn't require discussion beyond asking FA permission. If anybody "owns" these routes it's us as a community.
What this guy said.
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Am I right in thinking Deja Vu is the route with a bit of a gripping, very steep, boulder start up to threads (I suppose they mostly are around here) then a vertical wall with a tricky move high up, near the last bolt? If so - memory fading a bit, I recall carrying a few wires, but don't remember any particular runout? Is there was there is there one?
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Its at a grade that you could have climbed on any given weekend for what, the last 10, 15, longer years?
I wish! That is the problem really, I am unbelievably shit on limestone. Last week I on sighted a pumpy E6 on Lundy, this weekend I failed to repoint Sardine. Again. I've been in proper lime E5 shape twice in my life, and both were before I had a kid and a full time job. So it'd be nice if the routes are still there when I have chance to get I shape to do them. Unless they are much easier in Yorkshire.
Totally agree that these routes are owned by the community. Which is why such discussions should take place in the widest forum possible. Not just to engage the widest range of opinions, but also so that we can all appreciate that range before making a decision.
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There's also a bit of a contradiction when folk bring the "well you've not even done the route so you can't have any say in this" - it's precisely those people who haven't yet done the route who should be taken into consideration! Future target market. People who's already done it have already done it.
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However, I am disappointed by the arrogant notion that a significant route doesn't require discussion beyond asking FA permission. If anybody "owns" these routes it's us as a community.
What this guy said.
spot on, I can't understand why there wasn't a bit more discussion as the threads were in good nick and people were climbing the route (and neil had done his first ascent). Surely there was ample time for a bit more thought, I agree it seems a little proprietorial
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then you go and make an even more bollox argument "he might not have heard of it until recently" indeed.
Eh wot? Sorry don't get that in the slightest. Just because someone hasn't been aware of a route for the last 10-15 years doesn't mean that once they are aware of it, their inspiration is suddenly invalid.
Also, what Dave said.
JB, try Another Choadside Attraction, it's more runout than hard and you get the same crux too. P.S. there's a thumb pocket rest after the Sardine crux bit.
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Don't worry, it's the crux I was falling off.
On reflection, I think the older guy retrobolting thing must be because they've done the route years ago in it's trad form, moved onto purely bolt climbing and now want to warm up on it. Assuming the world has moved on too has some validity but also involves having your cake and eating it before the youth get any.
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Eh wot? Sorry don't get that in the slightest. Just because someone hasn't been aware of a route for the last 10-15 years doesn't mean that once they are aware of it, their inspiration is suddenly invalid.
My point was that I'd be staggered to the point of disbelief if JB had only recently heard of this route
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Neil has published an article on UKC http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=69969
I like Neil but I do not like the way he has gone about this and the emotive language he uses which has not helped make for reasoned debate and consideration on a topic which there are generally strong feelings anyway.
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He makes out in that article that it's the 'old guard' that is against his bolting.... but I'm in my 20s, haven't been climbing for all that long, and really aspired to do routes such as Deja Vu. The reports of where the bolts are/aren't are confusing, but I feel disappointed that I might not be able to have the full deja vu experience. Particularly as, in the UKC article, Neil comments that he added the lower bolts after doing his FA!
p.s isn't this all a bit ironic as the retrobolting debate has been deja vu? :lol:
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Don't worry, it's the crux I was falling off.
On reflection, I think the older guy retrobolting thing must be because they've done the route years ago in it's trad form, moved onto purely bolt climbing and now want to warm up on it. Assuming the world has moved on too has some validity but also involves having your cake and eating it before the youth get any.
Almost certainly true but the route is still there for you youths (ahem) to enjoy in all its ankle breaking glory. No one is more versed than me in the idiosyncrasies of UK ethics so I understand why totally illogical things matter, but, objecting to a bomber thread being replaced by a bolt on a route that is protected by bolts already takes that illogicality too far for me (to the point where I don't understand why NG put his head above the parapet).
What is it you are trying to preserve? If you think it sets a dangerous precedent then that ship sailed years ago with the bolting of Dominatrix and Directissima, if you want to preserve the bad fall, that's still there, if you want to preserve the danger of a climbing above dodgy in situ gear that was never available as they are pretty bomber. Hopefully my last word on the matter as I don't feel strongly enough about the bolts to spend this much time discussing them (that last bit could equally be directed at hstmoore, I'm interested in what the full déjà vu experience is considered to be)
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My point was that I'd be staggered to the point of disbelief if JB had only recently heard of this route
I'm not, he's pretty grit-centric - I had to do a double take upon finding him lurking down the Cornice last month!
I think the real pity here is that Neil didn't need to place those bolts - he'd already done his extension plus the threads sound bomber and are on a bit of the route that should be piss for an 8b+ redpointer. Doing anything to fuck with a *** ER tick is asking for trouble, even if it makes total sense and is logical. Why take the risk in the first place? I think the very fact that a fair number of people have come out to say they are either uncomfortable or downright mad with the new bolts is a fair indication that he didn't consult as widely or as thoroughly as he thought he had. Everyone ends up losing this way - his new route gets tarnished, the crag suffers when someone self righteously chops the bolts, and we end up more polarised as a community just when it seemed a happy consensus was being reached.
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I think the very fact that a fair number of people have come out to say they are either uncomfortable or downright mad with the new bolts is a fair indication that he didn't consult as widely or as thoroughly as he thought he had.
ARE YOU CRAZY? HE GOT 400 FACEBOOK LIKES FFS!!!!1111!!!! AND NOT ONE SINGLE DISLIKE.
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to be clear - I have not climbed Deja Vu but I have been hoping to do it soon. I am training to hopefully onsight at that grade & when I visited Kilnsey the line grabbed me - so I added it to my 'list'
I didn't want to have an opinion until I had read the background, so I read Neil's FB post & his 'justification' on UKC
I now think its disgusting. I feel that Neil has put this post online to try to gain acceptance without providing the people real facts about the route. (Extreme rock, threads replaced every year, top bolt clippable etc)
The attitude of some of the supporters are incredible, repeated calls for 'just don't clip the bolts', 'Kilnsey is a sport crag' & 'threads are dangerous' seem completely unfounded & I question whether these people have ever been truly committed on a brilliant trad route.
I am very welcoming of bolts, I think the UK is extremely OTT about anti bolting, but the comments & opinions I have seen today has helped me understand why some of the 'old timers/dinosaurs' (as they seem to be continuously branded) are so paranoid about the wedge
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Neil implies on his UKC letter that the vast majority of local activists he asked support what he did.. that sems pretty odd to me
"The interesting thing is that literally hundreds of people share this view. The reason I know this is because I canvassed the crag for two seasons before replacing the low threads with bolts and also put the feelers out on social media, receiving over 400 hundred ‘likes’ for a related post. It was amazing how many people felt passionately about this" which begs the question how many feel, different and are they all old
He does follow this with a good troll...
"as well as the other controversial issue of why all the first bolts are so high up on this part of the crag".. someone really needs to invent a long extendable pole so you can pre clip these...
...but must go now as the talk of curry is distracting my HVS mindset.
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The attitude of some of the supporters are incredible, repeated calls for 'just don't clip the bolts', 'Kilnsey is a sport crag' & 'threads are dangerous' seem completely unfounded & I question whether these people have ever been truly committed on a brilliant trad route.
I am very welcoming of bolts, I think the UK is extremely OTT about anti bolting, but the comments & opinions I have seen today has helped me understand why some of the 'old timers/dinosaurs' (as they seem to be continuously branded) are so paranoid about the wedge
I can easily imagine how Neil's overwhelming enthusiasm and general popularity will have won over climbers who happened to be at the crag and on his facebook page and of course the easy going Ron when he eventually contacted him.
If this any indication of the direction of travel it seems to be polarising territorially into having either a Sport Crag or a Trad Crag.
Similar scenario with Cocytus at Anstey's Cove.
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Even Mick "milk the climbing media / politics cow until it's udders bleed" Ryan is taking a strong stance against this one.
Gresh's arguments are weak on many counts. I might need another coffee before posting on UKC tho.
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I'm not expert on this string chuffing stuff despite having spent my last five weekends at kilnsey. What I really don't get though is, why climb the route as a trad route up to the roof, then do the roof as a sport route as he did on the actual ascent, just to go and put bolts in afterwards? Surely his ascent of the entire line shows it doesn't need to be bolted? Seems peculiar to me.
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it isn't though Shark, as Teaboy pointed out, this won't happen on the pure Trad routes at the crag and people who are indifferent to the lower bolts on déjà vu feel strongly about the climbs with a whole lot less, if any, fixed gear.
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Nothing to add as it all goes over my head, although I liked the bit where he said he was concerned that "...I have set a worrying president...".
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The attitude of some of the supporters are incredible, repeated calls for 'just don't clip the bolts', 'Kilnsey is a sport crag' & 'threads are dangerous' seem completely unfounded & I question whether these people have ever been truly committed on a brilliant trad route.
I am very welcoming of bolts, I think the UK is extremely OTT about anti bolting, but the comments & opinions I have seen today has helped me understand why some of the 'old timers/dinosaurs' (as they seem to be continuously branded) are so paranoid about the wedge
I can easily imagine how Neil's overwhelming enthusiasm and general popularity will have won over climbers who happened to be at the crag and on his facebook page and of course the easy going Ron when he eventually contacted him.
If this any indication of the direction of travel it seems to be polarising territorially into having either a Sport Crag or a Trad Crag.
I feel it is very easy to jump onto a bandwagon with a public icon. it seems like Neil has used this tool to gain support. Social media can be used very effectively to get what you want. In a much more extreme example it was used to abuse migrants (Calais swarm etc) then love migrants (child on beach)
Keen activists of the UK climbing scene (Critchley, Enty, Littlefair, Mick etc) seem to be getting abused on Neils facebook, by people who have no idea on the subject. Which is just ridiculous
The real discussion should surely have been at the BMC local area meet? Not on a facebook page. As there people can give an opinion if you care enough & whether you climb VS or 8c.
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I have no interest in what's happened, but I will say it's been damn good publicity for a publicity seeking guy
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Good debate.
We've been through this several times I think. Most recently through some massive debate about some rock on the gower.
There's even a BMC policy document about it. (The result of some large, all over the country meetings with lots of people and that were generally well-chaired.)
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-drilled-equipment-and-dry-tooling-position-statements
It's the closest we've got to a consensus position that gave everyone a say.
It says this:
retro-bolting proposals should be widely publicised prior to discussion, and agreed on a consensus basis.
In these discussions the following factors must be given careful consideration:
• Access, environmental and land ownership issues.
• The history of the area or crag in terms of the established climbing ethics.
• Existing drilled equipment policies and agreements in place.
• The views of the first ascensionists.
• The level of importance (i.e. local / regional / national) of the area or crag in question.
• The nature of the rock (i.e. natural or quarried) and the availability of natural protection.
• The aspirations of current and future generations of climbers.
In the case of substantive and potentially controversial proposals to use drilled equipment, wider consultation should be carried out through National Council, the BMC Area structure and the BMC’s media outlets prior to agreement. The document provides further guidance to the BMC drilled equipment policy 1992.
Now clearly, Neil has taken one of those into account - the first ascentionist. He does seem to have neglected the others, and "debate" on his facebook page, in his lounge, or in his own head hardly counts.
It seems pretty clear to me. Neil hasn't sought the right permissions, nor had the right discussions, nor sought consensus (e.g. at the LOCAL area meeting). Canvassing the crag for people who might agree with him isn't the right way for obvious reasons.
Personally, I think the right thing to do here is to
* Have the retroactive debate in the area meeting, get loads of people from both sides to attend, chair it well. It might not be the best ever way of resolving it, but as pete says, it's the best we have.
* If everyone decides to not bolt it... then the bolts get chopped. And if Neil doesn't like it, well then he can go and bolt something that's not a forty year old piece of british climbing history but is something geniuinely new instead.
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Even Mick "milk the climbing media / politics cow until it's udders bleed" Ryan is taking a strong stance against this one.
I think Mick is just enjoying his first UKC bolt debate as an independent.
Despite my longstanding support of BMC area meets, I think forum threads are the best place for these debates. Area meets only have limited time, and limited room. Yes, you might get some idiots on the net but over a proper thread everyone gets to have their say, points of fact get confirmed or otherwise, and people have time to think properly about their opinion. Everything so far suggests Neil was reluctant to engage with anyone who might disagree.
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At the risk of disagreeing with the general tone...
Of all the retroed routes to be making a fuss about, this does seem like a ridiculous one to choose.
I've done Deja Vu a bunch of times at various points in the mid to late 90s. I've never taken any wires. It was vaguely run out on easy ground, but was always pretty much a badly equipped clip up. The fact it is in Extreme Rock is pretty irrelevant - so are lots of sport routes.
Make a fuss about The Directissima. Make a fuss about the Cave Routes. Make a fuss about Dominatrix. They would all hang together as great trad routes. All could be climbed no problem without any fixed gear. I'd be quite happy to see all completely stripped.
But Deja Vu? It is and always has been a sport route. Replacing ugly threads every year in some vague attempt to pretend you're trad climbing is just utterly dumb.
Having said that, I should probably admit that I feel the same way about ALL tatt and pegs - everywhere. They are ridiculous, unslightly anachronisms from a bygone age - and pegs in particular have in a single generation wrecked some of the best climbing on the planet. If you want fixed gear use top quality very long lasting bolts and place them well. If you don't want fixed gear, or can't be arsed to place top quality bolts, then don't use fixed gear...
Tatt and pegs will all go eventually (with some of the routes becoming trad and others sport, and others mixed.) The only question is how much fuss people make about the process.
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I think the real pity here is that Neil didn't need to place those bolts ..
..when someone self righteously chops the bolts
I don't think it'd be any more self-righteous to chop the bolts, than to put them in.
Amazingly, angle grinders from Lidl are even cheaper than some of the pro-bolting arguments here!
We've been through a period where efforts were made to accommodate both the sport and trad ethics, and for them to coexist on the same crags, but recently there has been an explosion of sport climbing and retro-bolting, which as Shark says, has resulted in the conflict becoming more territorial.
Now the trad/HVS climbers/curry eaters are pushed out to their reservations on the mountain crags.
I think there is so much non-sensical discussion here, dressed up as rational debate - to a degree, on both sides. I think we'd be better off recognising that.
Much of the claims made to the popular vote seem to be achieved by deciding who has a stake and who doesn't, and therefore, bizarrely, who has a right to vote.
All sounds very familiar.
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I like Neil but I do not like the way he has gone about this and the emotive language he uses which has not helped make for reasoned debate and consideration on a topic which there are generally strong feelings anyway.
Exactly that. I have no specific knowledge of these routes but his attitude has been disappointing.
Neil Gresham, Facebook 03AUG14
"quick ethical Q: any objections to me placing some lower first bolts on a few notable sport routes at Kilnsey so folk can climb without stupid sticks or breaking ankles?"
(following a lot of confirmation bias agreements etc, I mean: who wants a broken ankle? )
he goes on to say
"Thanks to you all for your replies. No trad or mixed-gear routes will be touched. A few first ascentionists have given permission already. BMC area meet - ha ha, I presume that was a joke : )"
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it isn't though Shark, as Teaboy pointed out, this won't happen on the pure Trad routes at the crag and people who are indifferent to the lower bolts on déjà vu feel strongly about the climbs with a whole lot less, if any, fixed gear.
Get a grip - you are a SCIENTIST.
Predicting with such certainty is very difficult, especially when its about the future.
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he goes on to say
"BMC area meet - ha ha, I presume that was a joke : )"
says is all really...
i'm not sure how a FB page looked at by only people who are interested in the goings on of Neil Gresham is the place to have a balanced discussion about whether his actions are right/wrong/good/bad/justifiable etc.
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he goes on to say
"BMC area meet - ha ha, I presume that was a joke : )"
says is all really...
i'm not sure how a FB page looked at by only people who are interested in the goings on of Neil Gresham is the place to have a balanced discussion about whether his actions are right/wrong/good/bad/justifiable etc.
I couldn't give a rat's ass about the route in question (never climbed in the peak) but this ^^^ also really pisses me off, as if a group of sycophantic followers counts as "balanced debate", especially when he just ignored the shit out of some valid comments from knowledgeable peeps. :chair:
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Ah fuck it, just get it chopped, enough fancy talk.
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:chair:
comments are now calling for this to be a 'poignant' bolt in UK ethics, whilst calling for the same to happen to Carn Vellan
One of the guys singing his praise is solely an indoor plastic climber from my old neck of the woods!!!! :shit:
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I have no problem with tat. It's easy to replace, it's easy to check if it's new, it relies on natural features.
TBH in the UK we have a very bad track record of eventually fully bolting everything where the fixed gear gets replaced with bolts. And then adding more bolts when the next generation finds it necky.
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deleted as I realised this isn't the place.
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I'm not part of the scene there, so can only give observations frm my local scene.
#1 - Pegs are not accepted as protection locally. Either place gear, bolt it if it doesn't take gear, or be bold and run it out.
#2 - No bolting a crack if the rock is solid. This is generally a hard and fast rule, but we do have one sport crag where the rock is generally suspect and it is mostly all bolted now.
#3 - Retrobolting - we are currently having a small but similar debate where there was a new route added near an existing route. The existing route had a runout start section followed by a rightward traverse with gear. The new route start to the left of the existing startand continues up and left after 3 bolts. But it can be led to the third bolt and linked into the traverse where you get gear. What this means is that the outcome will almost definitely end up being everyone clips the bolts to get to the traverse and the gear. There are quite a few arguments about whether this constitues retrobolting... No community consensus at this time, but personally I hope the bolts stay as both routes are better this way, and you still have the option of doing the bolt start should you so desire.
Don't know if that helps to give an outsider's perspective...
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What Stu said.
I find it very worrying when people dismiss threads and pegs as 'fixed gear' that is somehow equivalent to bolts. Do people really not understand or appreciate the fundamental difference between a natural gear placement and a man-made one, and how crucial that is to the trad ethic?
Just done a route on Lundy with a bunch of pegs 24 years old, stainless and in great nick. I've seen many shoddy bolts of similar age in far worse nick. But somehow we've sorted out decent bolts but all pegs are now considered bad?
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Just seen Pete Gomersall's post on the other channel in which he said he retrobolted the Directissima (FFA by Ron Fawcett), which used to rely on wires and threads.
Can somebody explain why it is OK for the Directissima to remain fully bolted while it is not OK for Deja Vu (also FFA by Ron Fawcett) to have threads replaced by bolts?
Surely if we are being consistent then the Directissima should be restored to its former 'glory' and become a trad climb once again. Who votes for chopping the bolts on Directissma and getting some threads back in it?
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I don't really care whether these bolts stay or go, I just wanted to respond to JB talking about pegs and seacliffs in the same sentence... :offtopic:
I FUCKING HATE PEGS. Especially on sea cliffs. They're total bullshit. I remember looking at the pembroke north guide years ago, there was a whole crag of *** E5-6 all with shit loads of pegs in the description, but to go try them you'd have to replace the pegs or at least spend ages abbing to see if they're still E5-6 or now E8-9 or whatever. Fuckin' pegs, what a load of crap. Take the fuckers out and upgrade where necessary.
:offtopic:
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What Stu (hoary old trad purist that he is) said.
Also while highballing has some popularity over here, and bold ascents do get some credit, I don't think the flow amongst climbing overall is balanced between "reducing risk with bolts" and "increasing risk and managing it with personal skill/experience". The trend overall is very much skewed towards the former.
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Just seen Pete Gomersall's post on the other channel in which he said he retrobolted the Directissima (FFA by Ron Fawcett), which used to rely on wires and threads.
and loads of bolts and golos
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Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)
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This seems a very strange route to get so worked up about - quality climbing and rock but always basically a mixed sport route with a dodgy start. I did it the 90s when I was climbing a lot of lots of trad and sport, enjoyed it but it wasn't a big committing trad experience in the sense of classic e5s like Right Wall, Supersonic or the Gogarth routes.
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Mixed sport routes with dodgy sections are where THE WEDGE starts :yes:
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Mixed sport routes with dodgy sections are where THE WEDGE starts :yes:
Fuck me I agree with Fiend this is a disaster
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Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)
I complained. And the bolts were taken out the first time it was tried, weren't they? And now I've heard that the bits where you need wires on CRR are either to be, or have already been, bolted so it can be done as a full sport route. Is that true? If so, it sort of proves the point doesn't it?
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(https://i.imgflip.com/r3nre.jpg)
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I find it a bit odd that Stu, and others think/thought the added lower bolts in many of the sport routes (some of which were initially trad and which certainly change the character) were a good idea but have an objection to the lower bolts!
... and lets remember, these threads are not natural (JB). The Pete G post on UKC is good.
... and the upper bolt is clippabale from déjà vu.
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it wasn't a big committing trad experience in the sense of classic e5s like Right Wall, Supersonic or the Gogarth routes.
But no-one is even thinking of bolting those routes. I really like mixed routes and I don't see why the fact that it's not right wall means that it's ok to fully bolt it. I let out an exasperated sigh when people talk about "tidying up" mixed routes when in my opinion they mean "fucking up".
I got confirmation that Neil's higher bolt can be clipped from the route, a fact that he has repeatedly dodged when asked about it directly. I also find his UKC article misleading (perhaps deliberately so) about this. His higher bolt neutered the only necky bit on déjà vu and changes the nature of the route whatever Neil claims.
I'd rather the threads weren't replaced with bolts for all the reasons cited, but this upper bolt surely has to come out, doesn't it?
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I find it a bit odd that Stu, and others think/thought the added lower bolts in many of the sport routes (some of which were initially trad and which certainly change the character) were a good idea but have an objection to the lower bolts!
... and lets remember, these threads are not natural. The Pete G post on UKC is good.
... and the upper bolt is clippabale from déjà vu.
A question - do we know for sure the threads are drilled? What's the source?
A Statement - I found nothing of interest in PeteG's post, and given his track record Of chipping and retrobolting I don't think he's the first person to turn to for ethical guidelines.
A defence - my opinion is (as anyone's) subjective and illogical but I break it down into routes I had to place gear on and routes I didn't. From this perspective, New Dawn, Yosemite Wall, Directissima are fair game for conversion to full sport routes whilst CRR and Déjà Vu are not.
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The upper bolt seems the more pertinent issue to me, but I appreciate that that may not be a universal view.
IMO sparsely bolted routes are not always fair game for adding bolts, I've certainly done ones that are better for some big runouts (though I can't think of any in this country that fall into that category at the moment)
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IMO sparsely bolted routes are not always fair game for adding bolts, I've certainly done ones that are better for some big runouts (though I can't think of any in this country that fall into that category at the moment)
The top runout on Obsession instantly springs to mind - later retrobolted
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"I find it very worrying when people dismiss threads and pegs as 'fixed gear' that is somehow equivalent to bolts." - JB
I've never said that pegs are equivalent to bolts. They're infinitely worse.
"Do people really not understand or appreciate the fundamental difference between a natural gear placement and a man-made one" - JB
Yes, and that's precisely the flippin problem with pegs. They are placed IN THE HOLDS, irreversibly changing them. From a long term perspective, pegs are just delayed chipping. Whereas bolts are pretty much always placed to the side of the features into blank rock, thus not affecting the physical climbing at all.
Continuing the tangent, since you seem to like Yosemite ethics so much...
Personally, I think one of the biggest crimes in climbing is being perpetuated year in year out by people with hammers on El Cap systematically trashing some of the most beautiful rock on the planet. Take a look at pictures of The Shield headwall from a few decades ago. And then look at it now (see links below). It's a disgrace. Using pegs / bashies is completely unsustainable and should be condemned in the same way as chipping - because it IS chipping (just delayed a few years…).
The sooner pegs die away the better. IF it is decided that a route / crag is suitable for fixed gear, then that fixed gear should be top quality, long lasting bolts.
O.k, o.k – I know things aren’t quite that clear cut in the real world. On easier routes "the holds" don't take on quite as much significance as on hard routes because there are lots of them. And perhaps on the occasional really loose cliff where bolts aren't any use (as you could pull them out by hand), or in the higher mountain ranges, then pegs will occasionally still have their uses. But in the vast majority of places, the sooner we are rid of them the better.
e.g: Anyone who thinks this kind of nonsense in the name of "trad climbing ethics" and "placing gear in natural features" is better than the occasional bolt needs their head examining:
http://w3.gorge.net/mhudon/shield_photos/bashie.jpg
http://w3.gorge.net/mhudon/shield_photos/this-was-A5.jpg
Or to put it a bit more succinctly:
"Fuckin' pegs, what a load of crap. Take the fuckers out and upgrade where necessary." - abarro81
:lol:
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Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)
I thought it was because CRR and directissima originally relied on pegs which meant they were more of a 'sport' style anyway
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Yes, and that's precisely the flippin problem with pegs. They are placed IN THE HOLDS, irreversibly changing them. From a long term perspective, pegs are just delayed chipping.
Not always the case. Not everywhere is Millstone. In fact, Millstone is the only place where I've found peg-made holds. There's not really a lot of full-on aid climbing going on on the current other trad route pegs in this country to create a load of peg pockets when the pegs rot away / someone replaces them with bolts. They usually seem to be placed in seams and blind shitty little slots you can't do much with.
P.S. I personally like pegs as a form of fixed trad gear accepting natural weaknesses in the rock, as opposed to bolts. But I do understand the reliability/rusting away reasons against them, and do thing their usage is open to fair debate.
IMO sparsely bolted routes are not always fair game for adding bolts, I've certainly done ones that are better for some big runouts (though I can't think of any in this country that fall into that category at the moment)
Slate. And Pen Trwyn. I'm sure there's a few on Peak Lime I've done too.
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Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)
I thought it was because CRR and directissima originally relied on pegs which meant they were more of a 'sport' style anyway
I bet there was a wire or 2 on Directissima before it was retro'd which means it is in the same boat as Deja Vu. Does anybody remember climbing Directissima before the bolts? When I did Deja Vu in 2008, from memory I think I placed one wire
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Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)
I thought it was because CRR and directissima originally relied on pegs which meant they were more of a 'sport' style anyway
I bet there was a wire or 2 on Directissima before it was retro'd which means it is in the same boat as Deja Vu. Does anybody remember climbing Directissima before the bolts? When I did Deja Vu in 2008, from memory I think I placed one wire
I am not an expert on these routes as I've done neither of them
Speculatively - I understand there was a lot of fixed 'junk' on directissima. Wires alone would not protect it? whereas déjà was threads followed by wires - so all natural gear (though you can traverse to clip bolts?)
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Why didn't people complain when Cave route left got bolted? Extreme rock tick? Same goes for Cave route right? (Not that CRR has been done yet)
I thought it was because CRR and directissima originally relied on pegs which meant they were more of a 'sport' style anyway
I bet there was a wire or 2 on Directissima before it was retro'd which means it is in the same boat as Deja Vu. Does anybody remember climbing Directissima before the bolts? When I did Deja Vu in 2008, from memory I think I placed one wire
I am not an expert on these routes as I've done neither of them
Speculatively - I understand there was a lot of fixed 'junk' on directissima. Wires alone would not protect it? whereas déjà was threads followed by wires - so all natural gear (though you can traverse to clip bolts?)
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Not quite right, there were always Bolts on Deja Vu higher up as well so it has never been 'all natural gear' so wires alone would not protect it.
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The question still remains that why, having already done his 8b+ with the gear as it was, seemingly at no great impediment to the 8b+ climber, did NG feel the need to then retrobolt it? Was there really a grassroots clamour from thread-shy 7b climbers desperate for it to be retroed?
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The question still remains that why, having already done his 8b+ with the gear as it was, seemingly at no great impediment to the 8b+ climber, did NG feel the need to then retrobolt it? Was there really a grassroots clamour from thread-shy 7b climbers desperate for it to be retroed?
I'm sure he thought he was just doing everyone (or 99%) a favour
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Ego. We've all got one. No doubt Neil wants to leave his mark with a fully-bolted 8b+ that, in his eyes, supersedes DV. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.
The threads were fine and clipping a thread never feels the same as clipping a bolt. Yes, there are lots of examples of Yorkshire (and Kilnsey) lime routes that have been retro-ed, but I don't see that as an argument for yet more retro-bolting. As Adam Lincoln hints at above, it's only a matter of time before Cave Route RH gets the treatment.
Personally, I'd prefer that route to have the pegs stripped and become a spicy E7 with big air time potential, rather than a 7b+, but that's me and my ego. I enjoyed its sport-trad state, gripped fiddling wires in the top crack pumped out of my box. Others might too.
However, there is a difference between replacing rotten pegs in placements that have effectively gone, with bolts, and replacing threads which are absolutely fine, with bolts.
Sport climbing is massively popular at the moment, but it wasn't a few years back. With access to crags like Blue Scar problematic thesedays, it would be good to retain some harder trad objectives in Yorkshire on K and G.
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Why didn't he replace the threads with a swaged wire loop? No drilling required, trad-heads would have a hard time arguing over material choice, long lasting and almost as bomber as a bolt.
Win-win-win.
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I've often wondered that, as a general principle, where threads are "fundamental" and hard to place on lead...
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Finally someone on the UKC thread is talking a lot of sense:
"Maybe the new bolts lower down represent progress, maybe they represent vandalism. There's no right or wrong answer, they're just two different points of view. But we should know by now that a community with differing points of view should be given an opportunity to air them, to consult, before unilateral action is taken. And if we didn't realise that before this thread, surely we should realise it now. I accept that Neil did some consulting including, importantly, the FA and the FFA, and I'm not wanting to demonise the man, but consulting on facebook amongst an audience of friends and followers is no consultation at all. This thread looks like convincing evidence to me that further consultation would have been appropriate in this instance.
"
That's the real issue. There are a lot of grey areas and a lot of possible factors / solutions etc to deal with with the perculiar mixture of old fixed gear and new fixed gear in this country, so there's not one answer and one correct solution in cases like this. BUT, interested parties and the general climbing public should be given the opportunity for feedback, opinions, and consensus in borderline / possibly controversial cases like this, about what happens to the general public resource of the rock and routes.
If there had been a couple of online debates and a vote at a BMC meeting, and the anti-thread-replacers had put forward their views, and got them clearly outweighed and outvoted by pro-thread-replacers, then sobeit, the replacement should happen, and there wouldn't be any of this fuss.
(Sorry a bit badly written)
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Good grief. The ukc thread for this has become 'knob slamming in car door' painful to read....
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I can't find the "stone him" button on Face Book
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Found it pretty ironic Mick Ryan has been banned from posting on that thread :lol:
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Michael Ryan
This user is currently restricted from posting.
Most restrictions are only temporary. Please don't start threads about banned users. You can contact us if you wish to discuss this restriction.
:lol: :spank:
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If there had been a couple of online debates and a vote at a BMC meeting, and the anti-thread-replacers had put forward their views, and got them clearly outweighed and outvoted by pro-thread-replacers, then sobeit, the replacement should happen, and there wouldn't be any of this fuss.
(Sorry a bit badly written)
The Yorkshire Bolt Fund Facebook group may have also been a good place for a preliminary discussion (as I'm not convinced that it's wholly practical to use BMC meets in each and every case) given the stakeholders who often comment.
If there had been a couple of online debates and a vote at a BMC meeting, and the anti-thread-replacers had put forward their views, and got them clearly outweighed and outvoted by pro-thread-replacers, then sobeit
Do you think you ever get a genuine discussion though? One devoid of knee-jerk reactions? There a very few people who seem to be able to see grey in these debates from what I've seen (I know that's the bus from Bristol defence but I think it holds true in this case) and I can't imagine the there for the curry types would try and see any merit in the argument that this might be progress.
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If there had been a couple of online debates and a vote at a BMC meeting, and the anti-thread-replacers had put forward their views, and got them clearly outweighed and outvoted by pro-thread-replacers, then sobeit
Do you think you ever get a genuine discussion though? One devoid of knee-jerk reactions?
Possibly, or having done it more formally he may even have got what he wanted and it would have gone quietly into the night. My problem is the idea that your own facebook page is the correct forum for any debate other than what to have for breakfast.
Neil completely misjudged this whole thing and has had to come out fighting.
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Neil completely misjudged this whole thing and has had to come out fighting.
Evidently! I wonder what the reaction would've been if it'd been 'digested' on a local scale before making its way to Social/Climbing media? Less knee-jerk I would assume. Perhaps I'm wrong.
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If there had been a couple of online debates and a vote at a BMC meeting, and the anti-thread-replacers had put forward their views, and got them clearly outweighed and outvoted by pro-thread-replacers, then sobeit
Do you think you ever get a genuine discussion though? One devoid of knee-jerk reactions?
Possibly, or having done it more formally he may even have got what he wanted and it would have gone quietly into the night. My problem is the idea that your own facebook page is the correct forum for any debate other than what to have for breakfast.
Neil completely misjudged this whole thing and has had to come out fighting.
:agree:
With the benefit of hindsight that would have been a much better way for him to go but given his views "that open forums are always wrecked by trolls as you know." and his dim view of BMC Area Meetings (I cant find the quote) a better choice on Facebook would have been the active "Malham & Kilnsey lifts/partners/conditions/beta" page of which he is a member along with over 600 others
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I'll believe 600 people have even climbed at malham and kilnsey when I believe Neil's got 400 actual friends
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I'll believe 600 people have even climbed at malham and kilnsey when I believe Neil's got 400 actual friends
You don't get out much though
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Why didn't he replace the threads with a swaged wire loop? No drilling required, trad-heads would have a hard time arguing over material choice, long lasting and almost as bomber as a bolt.
Win-win-win.
It would be easier to (roughly) gauge the state of the threads than a swaged loop.
Also, the narrow wire (relative to the sling) is more likely to break the Rock of the thread.
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Wire swages would deffo end up cutting the rock up like nobody's business, unless they were sleeved in plastic or something, which probably isn't wise in terms of hiding any corrosion/damage and letting water linger.
Personally I don't find a bit of tat that visually offensive, certainly less offensive than when folk leave draws in a route for days/weeks/months.
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True, lime is a bit on the less tough side.
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True, lime is a bit on the less tough side.
Great geological definition :)
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Moh's scale of hardness. About the only useful thing I can remember from my first year geology part of my degree.
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I'll believe 600 people have even climbed at malham and kilnsey when I believe Neil's got 400 actual friends
You don't get out much though
Nor do I want to if this thread (or bolt) is anything to go by!
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I'll believe 600 people have even climbed at malham and kilnsey when I believe Neil's got 400 actual friends
580 of them are various Shark aliases / clones trying to cadge a lift and belay at Malham.
Good views in this thread, I think.
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Good views in this thread, I think.
I would just like to announce that we don't have to clip the bolts if we still want the trad experienceTM
Thank you.
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Good views in this thread, I think.
I would just like to announce that we don't have to clip the bolts if we still want the trad experienceTM
Thank you.
:icon_beerchug: end of debate!
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Good views in this thread, I think.
I would just like to announce that we don't have to clip the bolts if we still want the trad experienceTM
Thank you.
Ok, so in the interests of idle debate (idle debate of bolts? Ha, ha, ha, ha! The refugee debate is less polarised, American Republicans are less bias than UK bolt debaters of either stripe).
Why not, not clip the bolts?
Forget this route for a moment, just any sport route.
If you bottle it, take the sport tick.
I've always wondered, just how much of a comfort and psychological boost it would actually be; as I sailed past that bolt I could have clipped, on my way to a factor 3 on that micro I placed beside it?
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I'll believe 600 people have even climbed at malham and kilnsey when I believe Neil's got 400 actual friends
580 of them are various Shark aliases / clones trying to cadge a lift and belay at Malham.
Comes in handy when I need to block vote the like button on ethical issues to achieve consensus
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Lack knowledge of route, but have knowledge of support. The two 'likers' who popped up on my Stalkbook page are Devon based wall climbers who occasionally are dragged outside. For N to use this backing as justification is balls.
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Chalk up another 2 for the BraySyc's then.
What I really want to know is whether Mick Ryan is a real-life person? Or is RyanTroll2.0 a clever design feature built into the ukc forum software for deployment during 'code red' debates.
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..as I sailed past that bolt I could have clipped, on my way to a factor 3 on that micro I placed beside it?
In Yorkshire?... not at least a FF7 on a hook on a flexing micro-edge??
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The threads at the start are on solid seeming rock and the loops are replaced annually by Steve Crowe - so they pretty trustworthy (depending on your trust of Steve's knot tying skills). I did Visitation and Diminishing returns last year - fully bolted routes with the same steep, slippy start to get to the threads (which are pretty high up). To my mind, whether it was climbed as "sport" or "trad" was a matter of if a clip-stick was used rather than the exact nature of that first runner (falling before them looked a proper crippler).
If the first bolt is at a similar height as the lowest threads (i.e. only clip-able after a fair amount of stiff climbing), as it looks in his ukc mea culpa, there is no real gain in safety - you are still looking at a nasty fall without a long clipstick - so it seems a bit pointless going to the bother and risking the wrath of those with relevant trad ambitions.
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Lack knowledge of route, but have knowledge of support. The two 'likers' who popped up on my Stalkbook page are Devon based wall climbers who occasionally are dragged outside. For N to use this backing as justification is balls.
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Speaking as a (now) Devon based climber, who is (these days) a wall based climber who (would love to be) occasionally dragged outside (but, just might have a bit more dwelling in his past); I don't see they have any less say than anyone else?
So, fuck it.
He replaced two bits of insitu gear of one type, with two of a different type (which might (might) be more reliable, but essentially do the same job, in apparently the same place. Changing the character of the route how?
Meh.
He did it without consultation.
Bad. (Quite bad, actually).
There is a higher bolt of more questionable placement, this sounds more serious; though possibly an oversight rather than a deliberate attempt to change the character?
Not good. Solvable? Anyone know?
Mick is trying to be a crusading hero. His FB posting has been vitriolic, personal and not contributed much to the debate.
I will never understand the UK bolt arguing, nor the passion it arouses. It is stunning how both camps consider themselves to be the majority. Since returning to the UK in '08, I reckon it's actually been an almost 50/50 split between my climbing acquaintances and friends, old and new (though I think I sense a greater desire for more sport routes locally than I expected and waaaaay more than I remember from my youth here).
The bolts will get chopped.
The tat will come back.
Or.
They'll stay.
People will move on.
It will be forgotten.
And, once more, the the tidal wave of retro-bolting (that this is so surely the first ripple of!); will fail to materialise.
Wow. I've got an opinion!
And it's not based on some sycophantic love of the Great Gresh.
And, though it may differ from yours, dear reader, it is no less valid.
Nor will it have much more effect on the outcome, because that will be determined by the actions of those who believe themselves to be crusading heroes, with the weight and might of right behind them; at least in their imagination.
Because a reasoned response would be to discuss the issue at the next area meet, where all who cared enough to attend, could air their opinions and a consensus be reached. From which suitable action could be planned and executed, with a reasonable certainty of majority backing.
But no, let's just all have a hissy and call each other knobs; because that really helps.
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..as I sailed past that bolt I could have clipped, on my way to a factor 3 on that micro I placed beside it?
In Yorkshire?... not at least a FF7 on a hook on a flexing micro-edge??
I'm too old for that.
I get frightened climbing the stairs these days....
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Ha!
Clicked off this and opened FB to find this at the top of my timeline.
FFS.
Enough already, both of you.
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/16/867b2fe672cd9101e6152e8630d17eab.jpg)
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Knob :P
OMM, some good points but really it's a very small wave in the middle of the tide that is already occuring.
That's some good Ryan vs Gresh beef. Where's Ken Wilson to smooth matters over?
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It's the Yorkshire lime equivalent of Rafa Benitez's "fact" press conference. In such circumstances, it doesn't matter how true your point is, the overly defensive and humourless manner of making it diminishes you far more than the strictly more at fault opponent. Benitez's "facts" might have been correct, but Alex Ferguson's response: 'I've got him, I've got him" said it all. Or to put it another way "never wrestle a pig, you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it".
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It's the Yorkshire lime equivalent of Rafa Benitez's "fact" press conference. In such circumstances, it doesn't matter how true your point is, the overly defensive and humourless manner of making it diminishes you far more than the strictly more at fault opponent. Benitez's "facts" might have been correct, but Alex Ferguson's response: 'I've got him, I've got him" said it all. Or to put it another way "never wrestle a pig, you both get dirty but the pig enjoys it".
I thought pig wrestling was standard Sunday afternoon stuff 'int t'other Shire, it'd go down a bomb in this Shire, except we can't find the pig due to all the Scrumpy that came with lunch...
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Calm down everyone, Facebook have been reading the thread with interest and are taking action.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34264624
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Barkeep!
I'll have a pint of what ever these two are on please.
Or do I need a pipe for that?
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/16/dad4357109f75b3bdf135f274bce94f4.jpg)
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Good views in this thread, I think.
I would just like to announce that we don't have to clip the bolts if we still want the trad experienceTM
Thank you.
Imo a huge difference. I occasionally struggle with commitment on trad routes (what if I get up there, massively pumped and cant get any gear in etc)
If I can see a bit staple as a back up, the commitment is gone
If you bottle it, take the sport tick.
I've always wondered, just how much of a comfort and psychological boost it would actually be; as I sailed past that bolt I could have clipped, on my way to a factor 3 on that micro I placed beside it?
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His FB posting has been vitriolic, personal and not contributed much to the debate.
Odd, that's not like Mick at all. :-\
On a serious note, out of all of this it just seems like Gresh is a bit out of touch - thinks BMC meetings are a waste of time, assumes everyone welcomes more bolts, shocked to find lack of proper debate on UKC, surprised when Mick acts up. Where has he been for the last 15 years?
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London.
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Jens>Ryan
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12036767_811151612328906_273951720410673273_n.jpg?oh=904c207dad0166e6d10ad8defbc85f9c&oe=565E804E)
If nothing else this debate has illustrated perfectly why Facebook is an unusable platform for any debate. Everybody sees a different set of posts, bumped up and down in visibility by FB's whims, each persons view distorted by the 'likes' of their 'friends'. It's like using a aerial video of a hula-hoop display team as a sort of postmodern venn diagram. All very clever, but fuck all use to anybody save to make arch comment on the pointlessness of everything.
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This shit has gone on for 7 pages will someone just go and chop the bolt or carve a heart next to it
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This shit has gone on for 7 pages will someone just go and chop the bolt or carve a heart next to it
Only amateurs carve hearts.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-V4-yaQGISNs/Tq0a_Fh5lOI/AAAAAAAABS0/NvRKkd6FEgE/s1600/indianfacepaintingx1.jpeg.jpg)
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This shit has gone on for 7 pages will someone just go and chop the bolt or carve a heart next to it
Tell me about it. i have the weirdest feeling I've seen all this before.
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(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/1909998_12809420436_2634_n.jpg?oh=ef79d51d47c2d8a5aafceb2b073b1175&oe=566AB6B3)
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Can we get Redhead in to paint a cock & balls on it?
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I'd just like to let everyone know that there's starving children in the world. And people living in cardboard boxes.
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Shoot them all and let God sort them out.
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Shoot them all and let God sort them out.
The kids in cardboard boxes?
You Cad!
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(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/1909998_12809420436_2634_n.jpg?oh=ef79d51d47c2d8a5aafceb2b073b1175&oe=566AB6B3)
That on the other hand just isn't funny and gentle though I am (grins charmingly, like Reggie Cray on speed) I would plant you if you said that to me.
Possibly just me, but...
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(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/1909998_12809420436_2634_n.jpg?oh=ef79d51d47c2d8a5aafceb2b073b1175&oe=566AB6B3)
That on the other hand just isn't funny and gentle though I am (grins charmingly, like Reggie Cray on speed) I would plant you if you said that to me.
Possibly just me, but...
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More to the point its just fucking stupid. Perhaps its all about inclusivity - the twat's taken what they personally believe to be an eyesore and replaced it with something that everyone can hate just as much.
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The graffiti artist is clearly wishing that someone or other dies of old age, which was only an insult back when Tim Robbins was in good films
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I'd just like to let everyone know that there's starving children in the world. And people living in cardboard boxes.
Right on.
They're mostly fat little twats in this country though.
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So the result of me reading all this crap is that's it's ok to call Mick Ryan a cunt again then? Excellent. Well done Gresh.
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Does anybody know why Mick is out of UKC? Chucked out or just got bored of it?
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I'd just like to let everyone know that there's starving children in the world. And people living in cardboard boxes.
Right on.
They're mostly fat little twats in this country though.
Has Doylo been fiddling with homeless people now? ;)
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Does anybody know why Mick is out of UKC? Chucked out or just got bored of it?
He's not and this is just some huge clickbait plot between the pair of them?
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Does anybody know why Mick is out of UKC? Chucked out or just got bored of it?
He's not and this is just some huge clickbait plot between the pair of them?
This Climber Conquered F8b+ And What He Did Next Will Leave You Baffled
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If nothing else this debate has illustrated perfectly why Facebook is an unusable platform for any debate. Everybody sees a different set of posts, bumped up and down in visibility by FB's whims, each persons view distorted by the 'likes' of their 'friends'. It's like using a aerial video of a hula-hoop display team as a sort of postmodern venn diagram. All very clever, but fuck all use to anybody save to make arch comment on the pointlessness of everything.
Like
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This Climber Conquered F8b+ And What He Did Next Will Leave You Baffled
:lol: :sick:
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:badidea:
Does anybody know why Mick is out of UKC? Chucked out or just got bored of it?
Unlikely to have left voluntarily. If you're ever tried to leave UKC then you'll find it's rather like The Eagles hotel California - "You can check-out any time you like, but you can never leave". The only way out is to behave badly, even then you aren't removed from the system, just marked as banned and stopped from posting.
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:badidea:Does anybody know why Mick is out of UKC? Chucked out or just got bored of it?
Unlikely to have left voluntarily. If you're ever tried to leave UKC then you'll find it's rather like The Eagles hotel California - "You can check-out any time you like, but you can never leave". The only way out is to behave badly, even then you aren't removed from the system, just marked as banned and stopped from posting.
I think Will meant as an employee not as a forum poster
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So what happened? I thought 8b+ wasn't newsworthy any more?
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So what happened? I thought 8b+ wasn't newsworthy any more?
This.
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:badidea:Does anybody know why Mick is out of UKC? Chucked out or just got bored of it?
Unlikely to have left voluntarily. If you're ever tried to leave UKC then you'll find it's rather like The Eagles hotel California - "You can check-out any time you like, but you can never leave". The only way out is to behave badly, even then you aren't removed from the system, just marked as banned and stopped from posting.
Maybe petejh does still have his log book ? Somehow i doubt it
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:badidea:Does anybody know why Mick is out of UKC? Chucked out or just got bored of it?
Unlikely to have left voluntarily. If you're ever tried to leave UKC then you'll find it's rather like The Eagles hotel California - "You can check-out any time you like, but you can never leave". The only way out is to behave badly, even then you aren't removed from the system, just marked as banned and stopped from posting.
I think Will meant as an employee not as a forum poster
Fairy nuff.
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So what happened? I thought 8b+ wasn't newsworthy any more?
Depends who you are.
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:badidea:Does anybody know why Mick is out of UKC? Chucked out or just got bored of it?
Unlikely to have left voluntarily. If you're ever tried to leave UKC then you'll find it's rather like The Eagles hotel California - "You can check-out any time you like, but you can never leave". The only way out is to behave badly, even then you aren't removed from the system, just marked as banned and stopped from posting.
Maybe petejh does still have his log book ? Somehow i doubt it
Haha. No, my logbook was deleted by Alan because I refused to apologise for having the temerity to call his guidebooks lazily researched. Which they are - they're lazily researched Alan. For which he received a written warning from the ICO for breach of the data protection act, with the threat of a fine and further action should he be in breach in future. And for which I'm eternally banished from ukc.
If you ever get banned from ukc you'll not be able to update your logbook but will retain access to the data, thanks to me. :strongbench:
Anyone chopped those pesky threads yet, or was it bolts I forget?
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Seems a tad petty to delete all your logbook data because he couldn't accept a bit of criticism, anyway moving on I think the real issue is the higher bolt that can be clipped from deja vu not the thread replacements.
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I think the real issue is that this thread has now reached 9 pages
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I think the real issue is that this thread has now reached 9 pages
you're right, best replace it with a bolt so more can enjoy it
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Apologies for prodding a sleeping dog.
Neil took the upper bolt out last night (slightly interesting that there was an old stud there where one had been placed previously).
It could definitely be clipped from Deja Vu; I did the routes in this vicinity (including Deja Too and Full Value, the latter I thought was really good) and it's fairly amusing to note just how easy it is to clip the Visitation bolts from DV (I got lost on Steve's new thing and ended up moving between the two routes above the offending bolts).
The threads (now bolts) looked fairly natural to me on closer inspection, apart from one which was a bit suspect.
Hopefully the above is a successful compromise.
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That's great news. I didn't think chopping the first two threads was necessary but I don't think the bolts that replaced them need chopping either. Let's not make any more mess.
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Could someone chop this thread pls?
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No Facebook essay from gresh this time?
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He's pioneering a new kind of spin-doctoring - publicize your bad deeds, keep quiet about the good.
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FFS this is UKB could peeps please refrain from being so serious. Everyone is starting to sound like dem loonies on UKC. It's only climbing, not bouldering so it really does not count. :dance1:
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woe betide the man who lets this thread get to 10 pages
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Page 11 and you're worrying it might get to 10.
I reckon we could get to 15 with some poorly chosen puns
You know, we could tease the thread out...
(http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/03/d6fb6edd736acdcf75190ad2575c8e1b.jpg)
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Jeremy Corbyn is a Labour vanity project non?
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Since the state of the bolts in Deja Vu are in a state of flux.....
https://flic.kr/p/zaViqq (https://flic.kr/p/zaViqq)
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Since the state of the bolts in Deja Vu are in a state of flux.....
https://flic.kr/p/zaViqq (https://flic.kr/p/zaViqq)
;D
It's Deja VuFrankie all over again
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I fell off Deja Vu a life time ago, went miles.
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Since the state of the bolts in Deja Vu are in a state of flux.....
https://flic.kr/p/zaViqq (https://flic.kr/p/zaViqq)
I had a feeling this would happen ;)