UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => news => Topic started by: Ferrito on November 22, 2008, 06:56:26 pm
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Incredible :o Excellent continued work by the Americans.... They seem to be destroying everything! What's left????
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I believe there's an unrepeated slab/wall somewhere in the Rivelin area. Anyone know anything about it?
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Skills. 8) Wandered briefly past around about lunch time today en route to the Hueco wall. Was this why Cratcliffe was so damned rammed today? Seemed to be a lot of peeps kicking about. Once again good effort, are there any last great lines for these johnny foreigners to crush into submission and show the way?
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I believe there's an unrepeated slab/wall somewhere in the Rivelin area. Anyone know anything about it?
That's just a boulder problem, these crazy highballing yanks wouldn't be interested, although there is an unrepeated E8 arete in the area... :whistle:
More seriously maybe they should head up to Widdop? If they do I'll provide them with lunch, dinner and as much tea and coffee as they can drink. And they can borrow my mat. Come on boys....
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There's always Equilibrium to flash.
But yes, Widdop Wall needs to get done.
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The guy is having quite a good holiday - now it's getting proper cold too...
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There's the unclimbed wall at Lawrencefield, unless I'm mistaken and some bold, technical bastard has climbed it. Y'know, the big wall in the quarry just below the road.
P.S. Effort, even though I expected it (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10254.msg169653.html#msg169653)
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Kevin Jorgeson has repeated almost all of The Groove at Cratcliffe. He opted to finish up the top section of Fern Hill, avoiding a safe but difficult upper eliminate sequence used by James Pearson on the first ascent. James originally climbed an upper line squeezed between Nut Cracker and Fern Hill.
I wanted to know what it would be like to fall from the worse possible place. So, I pulled up Cooper's rope to the break, counted to three, and let go. George took a few steps back and I landed with a hard thud, 5 feet above the ground. Ouch. Didn't need to have George run back after all. The gear held perfectly and I landed safely below the small foot-ledge from which the route's crux sequence begins. All in all, I'd say the route is technically the hardest bit of climbing I have done on the trip, but in the scheme of things, safe.
Extremely hard routes, such as those put up by Miles Gibson, feature moves just as hard as The Groove (yes, I have tried some, namely, Superstition*). These climbs can be just as safe as E1's, but because of their physical difficulty, receive an E-grade upwards of E8. I think The Groove falls into this category, of safe and hard. And beautiful. What an amazing, unique and rewarding route.
Kevin has suggested that the crux moves of The Groove would merit a bouldering grade of Font 7C+ (V10).
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http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf[/url]]Today I climbed a route that has been holding my interest for quite some time: The Groove! I
succeeded on my first lead attempt of the day, in decent conditions.
For those unfamiliar with The Groove, the name comes from the obvious groove at the bottom of the
wall below Fern Hill. The main challenge, is and always has been this obvious feature. As the groove
continues upward, it fades and the line becomes ambiguous. I had to call people to figure out the
original line. As you will read, James and I interpreted the upper wall differently, at no fault of either of
us.
I spent a total of four days on the climb. On my first day, I managed all of the lower moves. I spent my
second and third days attempting the top arete sequence, which felt nearly impossible for my size.
Coupled with the fact that I had to avoid a ledge (and easier climbing) just to the side, I decided to
finish climb the route in the most natural, fun way that I could imagine. So, on my fourth day, today, I
just decided to go for it and finish up the classic Fern Hill. I stuck the one-handed move, pinched the
pebble, made the two extremely tenuous (and for me, crux) foot moves, and dynoed to the break.
Wearing a grin on my face the rest of the way, I cruised up the jugs on Fern Hill all the way to the top
of the wall and into the sunshine.
I placed two cams at ground level to keep me from getting clipped in a fall. To protect the crux, I
placed one small slider nut and one #3 HB offset wire, both clipped to the same single carabiner. I
used one rope and no crash pads at the base.
After sending, we went back to shoot close-ups. When that was all over, I wanted to know what it
would be like to fall from the worse possible place. So, I pulled up Cooper’s rope to the break,
counted to three, and let go. George took a few steps back and I landed with a hard thud, 5 feet
above the ground. Ouch. Didn’t need to have George run back after all. The gear held perfectly and I
landed safely below the small foot-ledge from which the route’s crux sequence begins. All in all, I’d
say the route is technically the hardest bit of climbing I have done on the trip, but in the scheme of
things, safe.
As for a grade? I have no idea. It climbs like a 7c+ boulder problem in good conditions. So, safe 7a?
I’m beginning to get a grasp of the E-grade system, but where I am confused, is where and how the
technical grade influences the E-grade. At first I thought, with two grades for one route, they are
independent of one another. One accounts for the physical difficulty and the other accounts for the
danger. Where it is seems to blur is with the high end routes. Extremely hard routes, such as those
put up by Miles Gibson (like Superstition), feature moves just as hard as The Groove, but are safe.
These climbs can be just as safe as E1’s, but because of their physical difficulty, receive an E-grade
upwards of E8. I think The Groove falls into this category, of safe and hard. And beautiful. What an
amazing, unique and rewarding route. I only hope that more people go to check it out! I can think of a
handful of the extremely talented grit climbers I have met on this trip that are well capable of The
Groove, if the inspiration is such.
While this is not technically the second ascent of The Groove (is it?), as I did not follow the original
line at the top, I have no regrets and encourage all to climb whatever inspires them. After all, isn’t that
what its all about?
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Skills. 8) Wandered briefly past around about lunch time today en route to the Hueco wall. Was this why Cratcliffe was so damned rammed today?
Funny, I was there today, it was rammed. We heard about the visitors, decided not to bother going for a look and headed over to Robin Hood's instead. Which was quiet. And nice.
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well done
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Good effort.
Was bouldering flailing around on the boulders too, should have popped round the corner to have a look (took pictures of a friendly robin whilst resting though).
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8a also reports him soloing Meshuga. Probably been mentioned somewhere on here already.
Would love to hear of a FA of Impossible Groove Burbage South or other really hard FA.
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There's always Equilibrium to flash.
Worth noting Kevin has already had a few sessions on Equilibrium. With less success. Reach might be a problem, but I'm thinking its more just plain hard.
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Great effort. Would really be the cherry on the cake if they manage a FA.
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Seems he has settled for E8 now for the version he did.
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So pearson has potentially overgraded yet another route, does anyone see a pattern developing??? :whistle:
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easy tiger...
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So pearson has potentially overgraded yet another route, does anyone see a pattern developing??? :whistle:
anyone doing any new route is "potentially" overgrading it, nature of the beast. and since no-one else has repeated the line james did (rightly or wrongly the line he did might be eliminate or whatever), no-one is yet in a position to make a judgement.
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Has grit given him everything in its arsenal? Its time he headed to Wales.
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and since no-one else has repeated the line james did (rightly or wrongly the line he did might be eliminate or whatever), no-one is yet in a position to make a judgement.
I don't wish to comment on the grade of the Groove at all, but that statement is clearly wrong. Using information made available by everyone that has been on a route it is perfectly possible to come up with a valid judgement about the route's difficulty. Route difficulty doesn't form some strange part of the universe in which normal reasoning does not apply.
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I agree with Ru. And especially in the case of KJ on the Groove, as he has repeated the crux lower half, which also formed the 'bold' part of the route....
E10? E11? I along with everyone I have spoken too, think not.
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yeah but the "information made available" is that he did the same start, found pearson's finish impossible (morpho?), and did an easier finish instead. I don't see how that necessarily means that pearson overgraded the route, as someone was implying. if the top bit is really hard then it could eaily bump E8 into E10, dangerous or not (wasn't there something in the reports at the time about the top section being bold?) Of course it could well turn out that he overgraded it, but you can't make the assumption based on the available information, especially since i'm sure virtually no-one on here will have tried, seen anyone on, or otherwise have any real grasp of what the top section is like. I certainly don't so will reserve judgement until its gets a repeat.
i read that posters comments to be based on some kinda of notion that he's got form for overgrading. i'm guessing that somehow comes from the Promise episode, but I read all the info about that rightly (new beta, how much to you trust sliders, using mats etc) then to jump to the overgrading conclusion would be a gross oversimplification of the situation.
At the end of the day, is overgrading a crime these days? you forget the pearon has form for doing established hard routes (knocking, equilibrium etc) long before doing the promise and the groove, and pedigree for bouldering too (8b flashes?) so its not as if his marketable sponsorship ting will be resting entirely on the back of promise or groove being E10 rather than E9 or whatever. Even if they both turned out to be E5s they're still uberclass long standing lines.
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If The Groove was only E8 then some cunt would have done it years ago. It's not as if nobody tried. ::)
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If The Groove was only E8 then some cunt would have done it years ago. It's not as if nobody tried. ::)
Without commenting on the grade, I do wonder how many of the people who have had a go were trying to climb inside the groove, instead of using the right arete? Remember that Brad Pit was originally "the hardest move on grit" until a visiting Frenchman bunged his foot on and changed the way everyone thought about it.
Is there an echo around here?
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People seem to want to regrade the entire Peak on the back of one visit by a bunch of exceptionally talented climbers... Hasn't every wad and his dog tried the groove? What's the point in ignoring twenty years of evidence that it's desperate, on the basis of one guy who can piss up E8s and E9s for breakfast...
Edit: Very succinct Jasper ;)
Edit 2: Echo, you say? Ooops ;D
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I do wonder how many of the people who have had a go were trying to climb inside the groove, instead of using the right arete?
i recon anyone seriously trying the groove will have been trying any which way to get the fuck up it. theres hardly enough groove to get inside of anyway.
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If The Groove was only E8 then some cunt would have done it years ago. It's not as if nobody tried. ::)
I do wonder how many of the people who have had a go were trying to climb inside the groove, instead of using the right arete?
No, Jasper is right. I tried it once years ago with Johnny and Pat; Johnny had a sequence for the first moves in the groove, (which he could do), ended up on the arete anyway. Pat and myself couldn't do anything with it, Groove, arete, whatever.
James had to come up with a one handed slap to do it! This isn't some heelhook that was blatantly overlooked.
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he did the same start, found pearson's finish impossible (morpho?), and did an easier finish instead.
Isn't impossible only one grade away from very hard? Surely this guy is not a benchmark of hard climbing all of a sudden; just because he couldn't do the move doesn't mean it is impossible, morpho or not.
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Again without commenting on the grade, I personally think this "generations of failures" is a bit misleading. The grades given are for James one handed sequence, which I reckon was quite visionary. I can't think of anything else that only goes one handed (compared with many of things that use Brad Pit esque heels), and presumably the one handed sequence was used because it's impossible/very very hard two handed. So unless anyone can say that the generations of failures are likely to have tried the one handed sequence then it's irrelevant that they all failed. They can be accused of missing/not spotting a totally unique solution, but nothing more.
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clearly its not impossible since pearson did it. "impossible" comes from the quote given earier in this thread:
On my first day, I managed all of the lower moves. I spent my
second and third days attempting the top arete sequence, which felt nearly impossible for my size.
(i missed the word "nearly"). either way the top clearly ain't piss, eliminate or not.
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Kinda damn cool sequences that Keenus found really.
I do think it's fair that Kevin has repeated the groove but not The Groove. Regardless of the nature of the top it's still the line. Even if it's a bit eliminate and avoidable, it's the route as Keenus climbed it, and his best effort to fully follow the grooveline.
I.e. exactly the same as Dave Mac with Rhapsody which I think Keenus dismissed ;)
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Good point re Rhapsody/eliminates (quite ironic given the turn of events here) - surely 'the line' is the line of least resistance. If the top is an avoidable eliminate then who can blame the guy for taking the most natural route to the top.
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I don't precisely know what sequence Bentley was trying but he was trying it post-Equilibrium at a time when he had recently bouldered Font 8a and has said that he found he couldn't do the deadpoint move to the break. I seem to remember it was this move that James talked about being the hardest? Rather than the one handed slap? This is kind of conjecture from vague conversations with Neil, but my understanding was that he could do the move setting up into the move to the break. So.... anyway. Kevin is obviously a super talented, tenacious and apparently pretty modest (honest) climber. But all this snidey shit about James overgrading is pretty f*ckin cynical when he put the time in and got the FA where others had failed.
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theres always a fine line (pun) between the "line" and the "line of least resistance". The bottom section of the groove could be just seen as the line of most resitance, being the hardest moves on the wall. you could say pearson's line was flawed since the top is avoidable, you could say jorgson's line was flawed because it'd have been easier to climb the gully and do fern hill normally! you could say pearson's line was flawed becauseit saught unnecessary difficulty in the upper half, but then again you could say the new version was unballanced.
the fact is the wall gives a strong line lower down which fades the higher you go. you've got to get to the top somehow, you can't just tap your hand and drop off. you either stick to a line and get the blinkers out, or call it a day and quest offward. both probably have equal aesthetic merit.
I agree with tom, the sniding about pearson is pretty daft.
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"and pedigree for bouldering too (8b flashes?)"
Great Shark Hunt Downgraded to 8a
Schule des Lebens Downgraded to 8a
Ganymede Takeover considered now by many to be 7c+/8a!!!!
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must be shit if he can only flash 8as then.
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But all this snidey shit about James overgrading is pretty f*ckin cynical when he put the time in and got the FA where others had failed.
Fair play, James did an amazing first ascent of a LGP, but surely you are not suggesting that the grade cannot be discussed? I don't see how that can be construed as snidey, it's an interesting route with an interesting history, and people want to talk about it. Simple as that.
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But all this snidey shit about James overgrading is pretty f*ckin cynical when he put the time in and got the FA where others had failed.
Fair play, James did an amazing first ascent of a LGP, but surely you are not suggesting that the grade cannot be discussed? I don't see how that can be construed as snidey, it's an interesting route with an interesting history, and people want to talk about it. Simple as that.
I guess I was responding to Gangle's initial post.
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I don't see how that can be construed as snidey
Some of it is just snidey though. Fair enough people want to talk about and discuss the fact that maybe the grade is different to what was first suggested but comments like:So pearson has potentially overgraded yet another route, does anyone see a pattern developing??? :whistle:
aren't about the possibility of the grade being different, that's just having a dig the way I read it.
Edit: Too slow ::)
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James didn't grade those boulder problems did he? They were down-graded subsequent to his ascents and any kudos he gained was in line with the opinion of the time.
Seems strange to me how keen everyone is to lambast Pearson - tall poppy syndrome? Especially as the evidence for the proscecution is the hesitantly proffered opinions of a pair of talented outsiders with little experience of the UK grading system. I would have thought more people would be willing to give James the benefit of the doubt. He has been suffused with the vagueries of our grading methods for his entire climbing life and has a track record of repeating hard, independantly-graded, bench-mark routes.
At the risk of getting all Occum's Razor on everyone's ass, isn't the simplest explanation for the current brouhaha that these American chaps are unfamiliar with UK trad grading? Particularly with the "modifying" role that danger contributes to overall seriousness. My impression is that, in their enthusiam and confidence, they underestimate just how scared the natives are of getting hurt! Haven't they down-graded virtually everything they've climbed - New Statesman the only exception? To me this indicates that they are committing a systematic error, either that or almost every standard-setting hard climber in Britain for the last 20 years has been wrong.
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I just took the "all this snidey shit" comment to indicate several posts/people, and thus include Ru and NCB's entirely reasonable comments.
Back to the meat of the discussion: Neil Foster made an interesting post on UKC.:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=330091 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=330091) if you want the full context, or:
"In reply to teddy:
> (In reply to Graham Hoey)
>
> Interesting, it depends on what you mean by an 'easier line' that Kevin took. It seems to be totally eliminate the way the FA did it so I would call the way Kevin did it the true line
Come on, Ted. That really is nonsense!
At the top of the groove section on The Groove is a horizontal break, traversed by Fernhill Indirect and Trick or Treat, John Allen's super reverse girdle.
Above this break, twin cracks lead straight up into a disappearing groove just right of the arete. I always felt this was the natural line as one feature is effectively a continuation of the other, and I was pleased that James apparently agreed (though I hadn't talked to him before he put up the route).
Avoiding this continuation involves hand traversing all the way across to the Ferhill crux, then all the way back left again on Ferhill (as Fernhill direct). That is great fun, but hardly "The True Line".
Interestingly both ascentionists of the groove (as opposed to The Groove) eschewed my proposed finish, straight out across the middle of the roof between Fernhill and Boothill. This is definitely on (I once went to Cratcliffe with John Allen when he spent much of the day hanging on an ab rope looking at this) and yes, it would be eliminate, but it would also make for a powerful and contrasting integrale.
That would just leave the final challenge on this particular wall:-
Thin seam right of the groove on The Groove (no gear), move right and layback up short flake above the Fernhill crux (perfect gear), then desperate thin moves up the wall to the wide crack on Renaissance.
Anyone fancy a challenge?
Neil"
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Thin seam right of the groove on The Groove (no gear), move right and layback up short flake above the Fernhill crux (perfect gear), then desperate thin moves up the wall to the wide crack on Renaissance.
That seam/ripple has always been obvious as the other LGP there ;)
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James didn't grade those boulder problems did he? They were down-graded subsequent to his ascents and any kudos he gained was in line with the opinion of the time.
Seems strange to me how keen everyone is to lambast Pearson - tall poppy syndrome? Especially as the evidence for the proscecution is the hesitantly proffered opinions of a pair of talented outsiders with little experience of the UK grading system. I would have thought more people would be willing to give James the benefit of the doubt. He has been suffused with the vagueries of our grading methods for his entire climbing life and has a track record of repeating hard, independantly-graded, bench-mark routes.
At the risk of getting all Occum's Razor on everyone's ass, isn't the simplest explanation for the current brouhaha that these American chaps are unfamiliar with UK trad grading? Particularly with the "modifying" role that danger contributes to overall seriousness. My impression is that, in their enthusiam and confidence, they underestimate just how scared the natives are of getting hurt! Haven't they down-graded virtually everything they've climbed - New Statesman the only exception? To me this indicates that they are committing a systematic error, either that or almost every standard-setting hard climber in Britain for the last 20 years has been wrong.
:agree:
You have spoken much sense here, Moose. The visitors don't really seem to get the idea of the grading system. Until they met the Keen One (let us not forget his track record and how waddy he is :bow: People really should be thinking about how he could crush them to dust with a mere thought before they spray about him) they thought that the system was closed and that E10 was the upper limit! And now he's talking about not understanding how the technical grade affects the adjectival. God! Who are the people who have been giving them the tour?! Could you please sit them down and explain how it works?!
And FFS take them to Wales or the Lakes or Scotland or SOMEWHERE other than fucking grit. Its not all the country has to offer you know. Perhaps they might be tested there.
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Yeah cloggy will be in great nick at the mo.
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top yank trad stars coming to the UK and then heading to the lakes would be madness, like a canadian coming over and spending months at dumbarton,.....oh hang on a minute.
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God! Who are the people who have been giving them the tour?! Could you please sit them down and explain how it works?!
One of the people they've been staying with has, in my opinion, a bit of a tendency to undergrade most stuff... :-\
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top yank trad stars coming to the UK and then heading to the lakes would be madness, like a canadian coming over and spending months at dumbarton,.....oh hang on a minute.
The funny thing was I remember speaking to my folks in the Lakes that week when it was p*ssing down here. And they were like "well the weather has been stunning up here all week". Oops :-[
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You have spoken much sense here, Moose. The visitors don't really seem to get the idea of the grading system. Until they met the Keen One (let us not forget his track record and how waddy he is :bow: People really should be thinking about how he could crush them to dust with a mere thought before they spray about him) they thought that the system was closed and that E10 was the upper limit!
But from there perspective it might seem very sensible that E10 was basically the upper limit - since it means an equivalent 'challenge' to 9a / 9a+ then claiming anything harder would mean we're talking about routes at the very top of the tree on a world scale.
I've brought this up before but never really received an explaination - if E11 and E12 exists then as far as I can see either such routes are the very hardest in the world or the definition of E grades has been changed at the upper end of the scale.
This doesn't need to take away from the great efforts of the likes of Macleod / Pearson completing some of the lgp's around as well as making excellent repeats of existing routes.
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top yank trad stars coming to the UK and then heading to the lakes would be madness, like a canadian coming over and spending months at dumbarton,.....oh hang on a minute.
The funny thing was I remember speaking to my folks in the Lakes that week when it was p*ssing down here. And they were like "well the weather has been stunning up here all week". Oops :-[
what about the other 51 weeks of the year? ;)
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Yes Ian, I agree with the E grade system outlined in the chuffing thread that bases everything on French grades.
For a route to be E11 it would either have to be well protected F9b/F9b+, serious 9a/9a+ or a death 8c/8c+. For E10, the scale would be shifted downwards a notch to be well-protected 9a/9a+, serious 8c/8c+ or death 8b/8b+.
I don't know what French grade a Font 8a boulder problem would get, maybe 8c?? Applying the above scale, if it was serious but not death on a stick, the maximum it could get would be E10 or if well-protected then E9. If the problem was rated 8b+ then it would be a serious E9 or a safe E8....which is what Kevin J is proposing for the Groove.
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And FFS take them to Wales or the Lakes or Scotland or SOMEWHERE other than fucking grit. Its not all the country has to offer you know. Perhaps they might be tested there.
Unfortunately Echo Wall has probably disappeared for the year under ice and snow, likewise the hard challenges of Shelterstone etc. Maybe they could come up here and try to come to terms with the winter climbing grades and what is regarded as in or not in condtion.
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Better to send them SW, a few challenging routes down there for them to have a go on, both solid and otherwise.
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At the risk of getting all Occum's Razor on everyone's ass, isn't the simplest explanation for the current brouhaha that these American chaps are unfamiliar with UK trad grading?
After 6 weeks of crushing on grit, these Americans have arguably as much experience, or more, at the top end of grit routing, and grading as anyone. Suggesting that because they've not grown up with the system, therefore they can't help but fail to understand the intricacies of the system seems absurd. What are you suggesting that they've misunderstood about the E grade, what factor are they failing to consider?
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Ru, I think that they have as much experience of top end grit climbing as anyone but not of the myriad complexities of the british grading system, which I would suggest is borne of the length of one's experience of climbing with the system rather than the grade of their ascents and the former does not equate to the later (for example despite being a punter of some experience its well known my grading ability is somewhat retarded.
As I set out in the thread now in the bouldering area (which I intended to post it in) grades at the cutting edge are a highly subjective matter and can only be properly assessed against established norms, and in the absence of what are established norms for what is E10 etc their views should not be taken as definitive just as James' proposed grades are subject to revision.
The understanding of the system or not is a moot point, grades take a while to stabilise, remember the banner 'could this be Britain's first 6c'? That it turned out to be 6a did not mean the FA was guilty of over grading or egotism (although I think that the FA did not propose the grade) much as it took a while for 7a to become accepted as reality and just as it will for the current grades to have a framework within which to judge them.
Anyway if I'm rambling that's because today I'm being dad and Hugo's demanding my attention.
Regards
Tom
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I fully agree with Dave, Jasper, T_B and Moose et al.
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Yeah cloggy will be in great nick at the mo.
Fiend, you picked a bad example and you know it. Wales has much more to offer than that.
Slate, the polar opposite to grit might test them and it'd be great to see stuff like The Quarryman get more repeats.
Then they could head to Gogarth and do some awesome routes there. Plenty bold and hard enough to keep them interested.
There'll probably be something dry in the Pass too.
A confirmed onsight of Strawberries whet anyone's appetite?
Need I go on?
It seems such a shame that they come for 6 weeks (which must nearly be up now surely?) and see nothing but grit which, don't get me wrong, is a fantastic medium but not at all the only good rock in the UK.
To claim that "Oh but its raining in those areas" is a weak effort and a mere get out clause in excuse of laziness. Sure it rains a bit more than the peak but there have been good days there a plenty and its not like slate takes a long time to dry now is it?
Sorry for the rant which is, in retrospect, a bit overly bitter than how I meant it to sound but isn't Ilkley the furthest away that they've been?
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A confirmed onsight of Strawberries whet anyone's appetite?
Nobody will ever onsight it since it's the hardest V4 in the world.
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A couple of points; firstly, the 'one-handed slap' is not the crux of the groove, the deadpoint to the break is. From what chatting to Kevin the slap is the easiest sequence on the lower section, but it is possible by more conventional moves. I think he did this bit pretty quickly considering the reputation.
As for the line, I've been all over this wall and I'm not convinced there is a logical line up it at all; if there is it would involve starting up the groove then following the flakeline above and levitating to the fernhill break. Futuristic indeed, but the best line - this should become the LGP of the future - desperate, likely dynamic, but very safe. James' line is the next best, so understandable, though I'd say the true finish awaits. I think this lack of an obvious feasible finish may have contributed to its lack of attention. Neil's capping roof to me makes a more obvious finish to the arete integrale which awaits an ascent - the rest of the component sections have been done.
As for the grade, I agree with Ru that it is quite possible to have an opinion without going on it. I'm a little reluctant to offer an opinion as I don't want to seen as a detractor on waht remains a superb effort, but to be honest I was surprised when James gave it E10, and very surprised when he proposed E11. Surely the public understand the grades enough to be impressed by 7b without a huge E number. I was tempted to give it E9 when writing the guide script, as this would seem to be logical compared to similar routes and the scale as I understand it, (ie its desperate but not sustained, and only one move is dangerous, but nowhere terminal) but didn't as I figured I'd rather not take on the responsibility for getting it wrong... ;)
Whatever, it looks like one of the best moves on grit, one I'd sorely like to do and good enough to make my ground-up resolve waver a little. Kevin's ascent has made it seem a little less impossible, so maybe I'll not need to compromise...
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What are you suggesting that they've misunderstood about the E grade, what factor are they failing to consider?
Well if Honnold thinks EOTA is E6, then he's failing to consider just how easy most of our bold trad routes are... it would make nosferatu soft e4, downhill racer a tricky e2 and great slab a nice little hvs...
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Specific routes aside, does it make sense to do for instance six hard routes and think one is undergraded and five are overgraded? Is it not more logical to assume one is undergraded and five are correct? I know this is a gross simplification BTW. It seems plausible based on ascents so far that if KJ went on to tick every single route of E7 and above on grit he would think more than half were overgraded. If this is so then KJ's issue would seem to be with the entire application of the e grade on grit more than a handful of routes per se. That said, where grades are based on incorrect assumptions about the danger level it seems likely the grades will be too high.
Sensible debate on grades is fine but idiots having a dig at James (and there does seem to be a few kicking about at the mo, on and off the internet) need to get a grip. This is the guy who went out and did the big lines! When all is said and done the grades are of infinitely lesser importance the ascents themselves.
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This is the guy who went out and did the big lines! When all is said and done the grades are of infinitely lesser importance the ascents themselves.
bingo. as an aside, the latter sentence above could also be said to be the case for both james and the yanks.
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AbSoDiddlidootlee
He came he went to work and he conquered (sorry a bit old fashioned and SuperPowerObsessed - perhaps climbed would be a better substitute)
Time doesnee matter its the journey along the way
What one learns on that journey is of the most stark importance
Even getting to the top is meaningless if one is journeying in the correct fashion
One could easily fall over on the descent down and one would then know that the so called end was of more importance than the journey ...
And then where would one be?
... Most probably stuck up in one's head, thinking of glory, oooOooh the gloss!!!
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I should like to add my two-penneth regarding the groove section of The Groove. There does seem to be a bit of climbing myth attached to this piece of rock which is a little out of all proportion to the reality.
The assertion that because it was a project for 20 years and didn't get done it must be nails/harder than E8 is fallacious. Firstly, I'm afraid that the odd attempt by Paul Mitchell, Johnny Dawes, and assorted '80's beasts to climb it as a groove (impossible) does not count. Secondly, when climbed as an arete (fairly obvious I thought?) the only truly hard move is the one to the break, as JB asserts. I know because I tried this section in about 2002 or 3 with Scut, we had one brief session and ended up figuring out all the moves, all of which Scut definately did (I didn't). It is in the 7c+ ballpark as Kevin Jorgeson says. 7c+ as we know does not represent the cutting edge, however obviously this is a very high standard on a route and so even armed with the correct beta then yes it would probably have held out through the '80's and '90's until the invention of Miles Gibson. I can only presume he didn't try it, as his routes are comparable (7c+/8a boulder problems with manageable falls - Superstition, Fagus Sylvatica). These routes get E8 7a and unless we have calls for them to be upgraded (which may be justified) then I see no reason why suggesting E8 for the first section of The Groove is unreasonable.
Other points:
1) I have no idea if this is true as I don't read climbing mags but I think I read that James thought this section warranted Font 8a+? I'm sure this would have a large reflection in the E grade as it would make it phenomenally hard for the hypothetical onsight. However, as Kevin says it is about 7c+.
2) Anecdotally, does it surprise anyone that E8 is suggested rather than E10/11? I know that a route in a similiar vein, Blind Vision, was roundly mocked by everyone and his dog as being "never E10". Was that because it was Adrian Berry (hardly Mr Popular UK) rather than James (all round nice guy and real life personal friend of most commentators on here)? Personally, I was surprised that James gave it E10 as from my play on it I felt that it fell in the "safe but nails" category for which E8 was perfectly appropriate given my understanding of the grading system. I think the subsequent suggestion of E11 indicates that James has a different understanding altogether (although maybe not as if he felt it was a very dangerous Font 8a+ then yes E10/11 seems in line with my understanding).
Regarding the top section I have no idea as I have never tried it, although I can't see it bumping the E grade up unless it is very hard (since it is safe and has a good rest beneath). This is a guess though!
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Sensible debate on grades is fine but idiots having a dig at James (and there does seem to be a few kicking about at the mo, on and off the internet) need to get a grip. This is the guy who went out and did the big lines! When all is said and done the grades are of infinitely lesser importance the ascents themselves.
I don't see too many 'idiots having a dig', maybe you see me as one of them. You still haven't answered the question above - do you consider E11's and E12 to be harder 'challenge' than all but the very hardest sport routes in the world. I don't argue with achievements I just don't understand the grading - after all aren't the 5 biggest unrepeated 'E10's' in the country those on some white rock climbed by a steely fingered Sheffield resident!
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This post is irrelevant, out of context, and has taken me so long to type that there have been pages of debate whilst I've been tapping away with my huge fingers. There's no way I'm wasting it now though, so I'll post it anyway.
Sheffield possibly has the highest concentration of climbers of any UK town or city who have the strength and ability to climb all the routes on Kevin's ticklist. There are so many people in Sheffield who are amazingly talented and superhumanly strong, and who live a maximum of 25 minutes drive from all the climbs Kevin has done, yet most haven't climbed even one of them. A lot seem more content to train hard, carry strong opinions on all aspects of climbing and be hypercritical of the efforts of others. But there ain't so many folks out there doing any more - there are a few, but not a lot performing at the top end when you consider how many insanely strong folks you see down any of the Sheffield walls of an evening.
Please remember how good a climber Kevin is - he's climbed Font 8b+ and route 9a and is obviously more than happy to push the boat out on bold routes (soloing a 12oo foot E6 for example). Why are people so shocked when good foreign climber(s) come over for a trip that lasts longer than the average spell of rain then have a blast on our beautiful routes? Flippin'eck, world climbing standards have moved on somewhat in the last 5 years - sometimes I think time in the peak stopped when Ben did Hubble and Jerry did the Ace. The modern cutting edge for routes is 9b+ and for bouldering it's 8c+. Why are we suprised when punters like team America come over and do everything? Apparently there's a bunch of proper strong Americans due over in the new year (Pringle, etc), at which point we may well have reason to have our noses really put out of joint...
Good on 'em, I say. Maybe it might show the strong and capable that they should get out more. Its no good living 10 minutes from Burbage and being able to do 15 one armers, and then moaning because you didn't get out and do The Promise before some strong foreigner cruised it and downgraded it. The best people to qualify the grades of routes are those who've done them. Everybody else is just guessing. Everybody thinks its funny when Dan Variable and Nedwin Van Der Freewilly do a load of 'hard grit' routes ground up with a load of mats, and then declare everything to be Font 7c - but maybe they're right?! They're the ones who've done the deed, so they should know, right?
Sorry to bitch on - obviously whilst I want all you local strong young things to start doing a bit less on the board and more on the crag my advanced years, tweaky joints and the fact that I'm shit preclude me from joining you. I'll give you a spot tho'! Well....maybe just for the start....
By the way, I heard that Kevin has soloed Meshuga twice - once when he first did it, and then the other day for photos.
:o
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Nice one Percy! You don't want all them strong youths outdoors though, remember the credit crunch! although there was no sign of that down your place on sunday.
Oh and the route that started this was the statesman? I always thought that the statesman was either E9 or Gaia and End of were hard E7! Just a thought.
And will pat who ever, either talk some sense or shut the fuck up! Were all having fun just in different ways, A quick look at some of the shit on my hard drive will prove that point, were all different.
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Sheffield possibly has the highest concentration of climbers of any UK town or city who have the strength and ability to climb all the routes on Kevin's ticklist. There are so many people in Sheffield who are amazingly talented and superhumanly strong, and who live a maximum of 25 minutes drive from all the climbs Kevin has done, yet most haven't climbed even one of them. A lot seem more content to train hard, carry strong opinions on all aspects of climbing and be hypercritical of the efforts of others. But there ain't so many folks out there doing any more - there are a few, but not a lot performing at the top end when you consider how many insanely strong folks you see down any of the Sheffield walls of an evening.
Completely glossing over the fact that the vast majority of those strong f*ckers not only keep you (or more likely the foundry) in business but also hold down full time jobs? As you'll note, when it rains at the weekend there's nothing you can do about it!
Sorry to bitch on - obviously whilst I want all you local strong young things to start doing a bit less on the board and more on the crag my advanced years, tweaky joints and the fact that I'm shit preclude me from joining you. I'll give you a spot tho'! Well....maybe just for the start....
why do people insist on comments like this, MAYBE just MAYBE, grit routes don't get everyone drooling at the mouth. Let people do what they want and quit whining about it.
F*cking good effort to Team America on all their ascents on this trip. I can't say which is the most impressive but there are a few that really stand out to me!
F*cking good effort to Nedulus and the Varient on their recent ascents.
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Sorry to bitch on - obviously whilst I want all you local strong young things to start doing a bit less on the board and more on the crag my advanced years, tweaky joints and the fact that I'm shit preclude me from joining you. I'll give you a spot tho'! Well....maybe just for the start....
why do people insist on comments like this, MAYBE just MAYBE, grit routes don't get everyone drooling at the mouth. Let people do what they want and quit whining about it.
I hope you don't think I was including you when I spoke of strong local youths, Paul? ;)
And I agree that pushing the boat out on scary grit things isn't everybodies bag, so how come no-one is climbing at top level on the lime compared to the rest of the world? Like I said, world top level for sport routes is 9b+ - I don't see the british youths putting up a lot of routes of this standard. Even 8c FA's or repeats are news in the UK - in the Basque country there are more than 20 local climbers (male and female) who've climbed 9a or harder, and its a country smaller than Wales (No bullshit - I've been and seen). Yes, our weather is shit, and our rock not much better. But Ste McClure does alright and he's 457 years old and has kids and has to work for a living....
I just get a little peeved with the fact that there seems to be a widespread lack of motivation to go climbing and push things forward a bit from some of the people who have the ability to do so. Thank god for tourists who are pysched!
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I don't know but that's for a thread in its own right, and it probably exists in some form or another already. I'd also like to add that the perceived level of achievement in this country is low due to the stern nature of the grades and routes (sport and those little rocks). I'll probably eat my own words in Jan/Feb when they all come and piss the ace, voyager and keen roof before flashing Hubble but until then I stand by my point. Lets not forget Marcus Bock didn't fair too well at the tor now did he?
I just get a little peeved with the fact that there seems to be a widespread lack of motivation to go climbing and push things forward a bit from some of the people who have the ability to do so. Thank god for tourists who are pysched!
In climbing the great thing is you can do whatever you like, if you're motivated to climb every day AKA Johnny Brown and turn into a grit legend then good on you, equally if you want to knuckle down and unleash on the world after only a few years, (on Action Directe perhaps?), or just to tick one thing that you always wanted to climb then I welcome thee. You can get peeved all you like about people not doing these things; the bottom line is you should get out there and do it yourself if it matters so deeply.
Anyway don't sweat it, it won't be long before Pete Whittaker, The Champ etc. do us proud.
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Sheffield possibly has the highest concentration of climbers of any UK town or city who have the strength and ability to climb all the routes on Kevin's ticklist. There are so many people in Sheffield who are amazingly talented and superhumanly strong, and who live a maximum of 25 minutes drive from all the climbs Kevin has done, yet most haven't climbed even one of them....
percy sorry to be abrupt but this post is the biggest load of shit i've ever read. You rightly point out that kevin has done "Font 8b+ and route 9a". So who are these scores of sheffield residents who've got this pedigree that you think should be out ticking off E9-11s? steve mclure, plus who exactly?
You always bang on about, and seem to revel in, the notion of foreign climbers coming over here and "putting our noses out of joint", time and time again. Again this strange notion that we'd somehow be pissed off at johnny foreigner coming over here and having sucess. Now it seems to me that the vast majority of people who've passed any kind of comment on the recent sendings of the yanks have been nothing but supportive, rather than depicting the rather insular cliquey xenophobic world you seem to which to project upon the rest of us. maybe because we're not rubbing shoulders with pierre strongcrimp at international routesetting exams we all live in this bubble, living in fear of the next wave of percy-endorsed eurowads to come and crush everying we hold dear.
well heres a thing, despite your insistance that theres these thousands of foreign climbers waiting in the wings to destroy britian, it scarcely ever happens, and when it does everyone is more than psyched for them. so hows about giving it a rest with all the bullshit, and stop trying to stir up controversy where it doesn't exist.
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There's nothing wrong with being abrupt, and there's nothing wrong with having an opinion.
There's little excuse for being rude though.
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There's nothing wrong with being abrupt, and there's nothing wrong with having an opinion.
There's little excuse for being rude though.
:agree:
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jeez wot a hullabuloo
1stly james is an awesome climber...end of story
2ndly i for one am all for these guys coming over and offering their considered opinions (based on whatever experience they may hav) grading is always supposed to based on consensus and the problem is with alot of hard routes is they hav very few repeats if any to create a consensus. i personally wud much rather hear coments of about downgrading than hav people repeating routes and making no comments on the grade out of fear of a public backlash or to keep the sponsors happy.
i dont see why any of this is any great shock, everybody knows gaia and eota are soft and to my understanding it was only the fact that they FEEL reaally fuckin scarey that was holding the grade at e8, this is either a missgrading or a sublety of the english grade the a visitor cud easily miss time will tell.
parthian shot was well known to be easy for e9 after the flake proved to hold numerous falls (especially from the several tonnes of muscle that is neil bentley) and i understood that both neil and nick placed all gear on the lead on their ascents meaning that it was more pumpy fr8bish? and that this balanced out the reduction in danger holding the grade at e9. so any ascent with preplaced gear is scraping the very bottom of the e9 barrell. (stunning ground up ascent never the less!!)
as for the promise and the groove maybe james just got it wrong he is constantly operating on the cutting edge where it is hard to get any kind of grading consensus, and as we all know friction, and wot u had for breakfast last wednesday can dramatically change how a grit route climbs and feels.
all in all gaia flash no big suprise, eota flashed err ryan already did it, parthian shot ground up.. not many other grit e9s u cant consistently fall off allmost every move without injury or death
but ....super psyching amazing efforts well done to all involved, keep cranking and keep commenting.......and for ffs EQUILIBRIUM!
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I just get a little peeved with the fact that there seems to be a widespread lack of motivation to go climbing and push things forward a bit from some of the people who have the ability to do so. Thank god for tourists who are pysched!
Isn't this just a summing up of British society at the moment - lots of moaning and lack of motivation to achieve something whether it be climbing or general stuff like work & jobs. People just seem to think they can get something now and not put any effort in. Due to the sporadic nature of my climbing & bouldering I usually keep out of these discussions - but in my mind people are talking alot about the same routes that have been talked about for the past ten years. Maybe route progression or the pushing of standards in the peak is slow due to a variety of reasons - and people only take note of how slow when some tasty foreign climber comes and pisses all over those routes. Anyway I'll shut up now and get back on my bike.
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This is going down the same path we have already covered (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,10358.0.html).
However, I'm in total agreement with Paul B on two points. One: Yeah maybe Pringle or someone WILL come over and flash Hubble etc. Dave Graham didn't though did he? I'd be made up to see the top boys having a go at the hardest routes in the country and I'm sure Ste Mac would be too! It's about time we found out just how hard some of these things are. Two: With the stuff James, Ned, Dan V, Pete W, Tyler, Mickey P, Liam D, Smitton etc etc are doing I don't think the future looks so bad. Also, is it not belittling the achievements of those young climbers who are getting out there and doing some impressive stuff to go moaning on about how shit we are?
I'd take issue with one other thing. Percy, you say the World standard is 9b+ sport and 8C+ bouldering. Really? ;)
You probably know better than me but I thought Jumbo Love was widely considered to be the hardest route at 9b and I know that the hardest confirmed routes are definitely 9a+. Perhaps you mean Chilam....... Likewise, surely 8C is the top bouldering level if we're being sensible. No we don't have hundreds of climbers operating at these levels, nobody does. But we have young climbers who have already climbed 8C and 8c+. That's not bad. Again, you'll know better than me but we even have some kids doing ok in the junior comps don't we (no Ondra but hey.... ;))? The trad situation is similar. Everyone seems to be forgetting that although these grit routes are hard, they aren't the hardest trad routes in the country by quite a bit.
I've said it before but I really don't get what all the fuss is about. :shrug:
Isn't this just a summing up of British society at the moment - lots of moaning and lack of motivation to achieve something whether it be climbing or general stuff like work & jobs. People just seem to think they can get something now and not put any effort in.
Whilst I agree that this is a major problem in British society in general I think again that it's belittling the hard work and commitment shown by many young climbers in this country to bracket them in with the lazy, workshy chav generation. One of things that inspires me is seeing so many kids and teenagers down The Works of an evening or weekend instead of hanging around shops sniffing crack and smoking glue.
Oh and ferret - I agree with all that too.
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Back to the main man, Joregson, its seems will be very much slowed down.
http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf (http://www.kevinjorgeson.com/Travels.pdf)
Real bummer of a flapper that. I really feel for anyone with 7 days left on a trip with something like that. Amazingly he didn't suggest a downgrade for Equilibrium.
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that'd be reet with a bit of superglue and tape! he'd at least be able to knock of a few dozen classic E1-E6s and get a full grasp of the grade range. be a good way to wind down the trip, tick all the classic routes.
note how he says:
I had an amazing trip out to the Grit, experiencing some of the best climbing anywhere and hanging
out with the nicest group of climbers I’ve met anywhere. A big thank you goes out to everyone who
helped us out at one point or another on the trip: with rides, beta, places to sleep, free coffee, ect.
You know who you are. Thank you!
rather than:
a big "fuck you" to all the cliquey locals who've done nothing but give me shit for putting their noses out of joint and lighting a fire under their precious jingoistic scene
which i think speaks volumes. good lad, sounds like they had the trip of a lifetime.
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However, I'm in total agreement with Paul B on two points. One: Yeah maybe Pringle or someone WILL come over and flash Hubble etc. Dave Graham didn't though did he? I'd be made up to see the top boys having a go at the hardest routes in the country and I'm sure Ste Mac would be too!
And if they get on OK with those, they can have a go at some of the Godskin probs.
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dam it no equilibrium
but while im on a rant i find this guys honest approach to attempt to grade the routes hes climbed a breath of fresh air compared to the media sensationalism of dvds like consumed.
i remember something along the lines of dave mcloud comes to the peak intending on clibimg an e10 with the choice of equuilibrium or blind vision.
wot it shud of said was:
he had the choice between attempting one of gritsones best hard lines which had recieved 2 repeats confirming the grade, and a route graded by a cross between a mathmaticall equation and recreational drugs/too much beer/pls give me a headline, thats generally regarded as a laughing stock in sheffield pups and is so easy he can do it it in the dark!! still on the vid theres the big e10 grade and that wot counts
this is followed by adam long, keeper of the secrets of gritsone and defender of the planet ethics, doin a 25 feet e8 ground up above several mats the size of bouncy castles, no comment is made about this effectively reducing it to a highball boulder problem!
dont get me wrong this is not a dig at the climbers in question (i wudnt fancy angels share even with that many pads) more a dig at the lack of honest media representation and the fact that big grades sell mags/dvds and r thus sometimes deliberately misrepresented
if these guys wanna say that all these routes are easy id rather that than routes never get downgraded because headlines a more important than an accurate report.
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good morning, there have been some interesting stuff on this thread, its kinda overlapping the British standards thread. I f every one stays polite things might happen. I know some peoplz dont want end of the affair to go down but if it did it would make things very simple, it is perhaps on the cusp? It does look like the groove is E8, doesnt it? Plenty of 8b on bokts with worse falls than the groove, although a V10 crux might be 8b+. I have to repeat there is so much to agree on in this thread, the weather is shit that does keep you back (destroyes motivation), gritstone is not the beall foe many, why risk broken ankles etc when your not going to get much for it. There has been a bit of playing around with the grades(for 25 years poss), its normal for people to do this when they can earn some money out of it, its not right though. It does look like when you do get an 9a climber (jorge has done one little one) they do alot of damage on socalled trad. Look at McClure, a solid 9a climber. I happen to agree with Percy but maybe I am wrong, but there is definatly a graet deal of strength not just in Sheffield but in britain and if those lads are happy well ok. I am pissed off for not using what strength I had and not ticking some big routes, Each obviously to their own. Things have moved on from Hubble but in my humble opinion only a little, I told Ben he made a mistake grading it 8C+, he should have graded it 9a and got the money he needed to make the next step, still Ben was honest and tou have to give him that. The E grade thing isnt broken but could do with sorting out. If Strawberries is E6 surely some gritstone E8 need bringing down. Stay cool and I didnt mention sit down starts once. McClure is definatly doing Ok for some one of 457 years old! Stevie
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Nigel - You’ve got a good mind …that’s why I hired you.
It does seem possible that people suspended their scepticism regarding the grades of The Promise and The Groove because James is a friend and all round one of the good guys. Maybe the subsequent lack of critical feedback on the grades didn’t help.
It’s also plausible to see how James could overestimate the bouldering grade of the crux if he was basing his comparisons on foreign probs which have subsequently been downgraded. It’s perhaps easy to forget that despite his maturity James is still pretty young and his experience is consequently limited.
I don't see too many 'idiots having a dig', maybe you see me as one of them. You still haven't answered the question above - do you consider E11's and E12 to be harder 'challenge' than all but the very hardest sport routes in the world. I don't argue with achievements I just don't understand the grading - after all aren't the 5 biggest unrepeated 'E10's' in the country those on some white rock climbed by a steely fingered Sheffield resident!
I wasn’t aware anyone had asked me that question. My honest answer to it is that I haven’t a clue. How can you reasonably compare two completely different things (neither of which I have any experience of). I might as well ask you which is harder, winning a snooker tournament or a F1 motor race?
My point regarding idiots was not pointed at you (I can’t recall what your post said to be honest). It was directed at a few comments I’ve heard from people missing the nuances of the debate and characterising the issue as one of James being in some way responsible for a perceived national embarrassment.
I’m nothing but psyched to see people from other countries coming here and enjoying the grit in such an impressive fashion. The more the merrier, I’m looking forward to the next batch. I really think these visits will help stimulate some great deeds from the locals too. I’ve certainly been hearing people psyched to get out on some gritstone over 10 feet high and to try the remaining unclimbed lines, a lot more so than I have in recent years.
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I wasn’t aware anyone had asked me that question. My honest answer to it is that I haven’t a clue. How can you reasonably compare two completely different things (neither of which I have any experience of). I might as well ask you which is harder, winning a snooker tournament or a F1 motor race?
The question earlier in the thread was 'I've brought this up before but never really received an explaination - if E11 and E12 exists then as far as I can see either such routes are the very hardest in the world or the definition of E grades has been changed at the upper end of the scale.'
It seems a completely reasonable question to me - if the E grade means anything (maybe you're among those that think it doesn't) then doesn't it simply attempt to ascribe a number to the overall difficulty / challenge of a climb taking it account the physical difficulty of the the climbing and other factors such as protection and seriousness
Therefore we are saying that climbing a well protected (say) E5 is roughtly equivalent as an overall challenge to climbing a serious unprotected E5. Obviously an individual climber may find one or other easier but this doesn't invalidate the system anymore than sport grades being used for 35m stamina marathons with no hard moves and 10m bouldery routes with desparate moves.
If this is true then its not too great a leap to compare a trad route to sport route based on the assumed continuation of the 2 sport grades to one trad grade giving 9a/9a+ as roughly equivalent to E10.
As to comparing 2 totally different things I'd be happy bet its a bit more likely that Adam Ondra could repeat The Walk of Life than Lewis Hamilton win the world snooker championship but you never know ;)
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For all the player haters out there, just rememeber that James did equilibrium in 3 sessions when he wasn't climbing very well.
Also the title of this thread is incorrect.
Also Percy, Stevie etc... I know you are trying to stir up a world dominating british trad climbing revolution but all you are doing is pissing the people off who are trying to do it.
All well and good saying I wish I had done harder routes on a bigger scale etc.. when I was younger, well, why didn't you? don't take it out on the next generation. I not sure why Hocking was joining in with this on another thread, your still young(ish) aren't you? Your part of the next generation, get out there and crank harder.
The next generation of talent is just starting to filter through, ryan, the champ and tony (I think) were out highballing every hard route on stanage at the weekend. I'm not sure how much they actually did but ned did careless torque and silk 2nd go and tony flashed silk. The future looks promising I think
Sorry if any of this is incorrect, I don't have time to read all the threads and I don't really read any of the chuffing threads, this is just my opinion based on the snippits I have read/heard.
Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope
anyway
This is what we should be proud of as british climbers:
I had an amazing trip out to the Grit, experiencing some of the best climbing anywhere and hanging
out with the nicest group of climbers I’ve met anywhere. A big thank you goes out to everyone who
helped us out at one point or another on the trip: with rides, beta, places to sleep, free coffee, ect.
You know who you are. Thank you!
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well said that man
Just because the yanks are great it does not mean that our talent is shit and overgrade everything, more than half the people on these forums have probably never met any of these guys, never seen any of these guys climb so how can they judge
you dont know what its like standing under a hard grit route in the freezing cold wondering if your mate is going to die, and how can one comment on overgrading if they have climbed the routes themselves and have an understanding on the differnence between E8/9/10
have some waddage jim
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For all the player haters out there, just rememeber that James did equilibrium in 3 sessions when he wasn't climbing very well.
That's pretty much what it boils down to. James pissed Equilibrium, found the promise and the groove hard, and graded them accordingly. KJ pissed at least part of the groove, couldn't do equilibrium, and graded them accordingly. Non story really.
Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope
You start at the bottom and finish at the top, that's how ;)
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Kim - to be correct KJ couldn't do the Groove either.
Anyway its great to see these problems getting the attention they deserve
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Cheers Jim. You are quite right - I need not post during a grumpy 'man period' moment again.
There are still 'doers' out there, to make up for my own lack of doing. Ned wandering up Careless Torque 'again' this arvo reinforced this point for me.
Its nice that some folks can visit our muddy little island now and again and come away with a good impression of us, and have fun on our rocks.
All this reafirms my long held belief that grades are irrelevant evil, and can turn even the most sensible folks a little bit mental and rabid.....even me.
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:kiss2: Ah , it warms the cockles of my heart when people kiss and make up , have a wad each .....
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Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope
Isn't it pad pointing? Or is that prerehearsed? Padballing?
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crashed ascent ? .....
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I hope you're joking re: the pads vs top roping thing jim, some punter on ukc said the same thing but i expect more on here...
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Without being down on anyone else's achievements, would it be true to say that this is the most impressive grit tick list ever? Despite not doing Equilibrium, or the top move on James' version of The Groove, I still think that this was incredible. Repeating cutting edge routes, flashing at the limit, and soloing London Wall.
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In recent times, and in such a short time, probably, but historically probably not.
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it is impressive, but have they done right eliminate?
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Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope
Isn't it pad pointing? Or is that prerehearsed? Padballing?
in the new southern sandstone guide if you solo a route above pads, its classed as lead with protection, as you are not aload to lead on the sandstone
maybe soloed with pro
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Without being down on anyone else's achievements, would it be true to say that this is the most impressive grit tick list ever? Despite not doing Equilibrium, or the top move on James' version of The Groove, I still think that this was incredible. Repeating cutting edge routes, flashing at the limit, and soloing London Wall.
This Yankie invasion has been the most energising and exciting thing in British climbing since...err...since the Belgiums came to Wales and tore the place up back in the summer.
All good myth-smashing, eye-popping stuff. The British bouldering scene would benefit from a similar shake up, although that may be less likely given how unassailable Gaskins' problems appear to be.
On a different note, I am slightly dismayed to see a tone of censorship slipping into this thread. Fair enough James' friends feel a sense of loyalty to him and wish to defend his reputation, but we all should be allowed to express our opinions/discuss what has been going on. I'm not a 'player hater' - far from it, I just think that there is something very interesting happening here.
I don't recall any shyness a few weeks back when people were openly questioning (and quite rightly too) Scott's amazingly fast ascents of The Joker and The Ace. All of our actions are up for scrutiny by our peers, this is especially true of those top players who seek publicity.
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Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope
Id call it the future ;D. Being able to boulder higher and higher with less chance of ending up quadraspazed in Staffs general AE. I'd love a massive pile of Ronins to try higher, harder(for me) routes ground up. Its not even close to being as unethical as top roping.
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hi guys, interesting posts. On a personal note, I am not a hater, I am a lover. I have been passionatly involved in climbing for 37 years, and might have a few more. Pantino made some good points about the british climbing scene being (and needing) shook up. I thought the Belgians did well in wales, they didnt tear us a new arsehole, but they showed us what strong motivated climbers can do. The trip by the young yanks did the same but has rattled a couple of skelitons in the grading debate, so be it, dont blame me. Stevie
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Also can we introduce new terminology for highballing above 150 pads, I really don't see how this is more ethical than say a top rope
Jim you half-wit, its called 'high-balling'.
Comments about highballing being poor style seem to be invariably made by those who haven't done it. I've climbed above some big pad stacks, never has that felt in any way comparable to a top-rope. When Friends were invented was it suggested they were cheating and you should only carry two per pitch? Probably, but now we can look back at such idiocy as fear of progress.
And I don't remember your 'virtual top-rope' helping you press fearlessly on up Thumbellina.
Plenty of us here are friends with James. I'd like to think that would mean we can make comment without affecting that, crag banter is certainly rather harsher. In that vein, I think The Groove at E11 will go down as one of the wildest overgrades in grit history. Do I need to reiterate that doesn't affect my respect for the ascent as one of the best pieces of climbing done in recent years? Unfortunately I probably do. This is exactly the problem with getting grades wrong - attention focuses on that not the route. Had it been given E8 7b all would have applauded the technical heights to which James had taken grit, and probably offered E9 for the fall and effort.
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Some interesting pics up on the big up blog. Don't look if your split tip sensitive!
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does anyone remember Anthoine LeMenestral soloing revelations? (showing my age) Like someone coming and soloing Overshadow now? This recent spate of grit repeats, whilst totally excellent, is hardly in the same ballpark as that. I suspect LeMenestrals soloing shenanigans had a positive effect on climbing here as will the impressive repeats by the americans recently.
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Thing was it made everyone think that the French must have been light years ahead of us and that this was the kind of thing they did all the time. In reality it is still one of the most impressive climbing feats of all time as Anthoine Le Men was only climbing a couple of grades harder than Revelations at the time (8b or maybe he'd done Rage De Vivre by then I'm not sure). You're right though Ben, it certainly helped give Ben and Jerry the kick up the arse to get strong, go to France and spank all their hard routes.
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i did not really want to post his picture, but I think all this talk about james being a massive overgrader is getting a little bit silly now,
James is a great climber and loves what he does whoever made this pic should be shot
(http://www.4freeimagehost.com/uploads/74e27de45b34.jpg)
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i did not really want to post his picture, but I think all this talk about james being a massive overgrader is getting a little bit silly now,
Well don't give the anonymous sniping idiots any more exposure. THIS debate at least shows that the issue can be explored by people in a sensible way.
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who made you post the pic then?
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What sort of a grade is '7 of diamonds', anyway?
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it's an onsight grade, roughly equivalent to 26 (F7c).
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i think its fucking appauling how the knives appear to be out for pearson now, seemingly off the back of this groove thing. he originally gave it E10 and given all the info now on the table then the line he did may end up being E9, which is within the usual grading margin for error. OK saying it might be E11 after the event on his blog night have been a faux-pas, but i just don't see this justifying all the vitriol goung around right now.
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I completely agree with dave. I don't know James, or any of you other mofos, but I really don't like the tone of all the "he got the grade wrong, therefore he's shit" rubbish that's coming out (mostly on the other channel, it has to be said).
So what if he got the grade wrong by one or two E-grades? That's easy to do (even I've done it, albeit at a much lower level).
At the risk of sounding more pompous than normal, history is not going to remember James as "the guy who overgraded everything". he will be remembered as the guy who did the first ascent of these awesome lines, irrespective of the grade.
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I couldn't agree more Dave. It's like everyone has lost all perspective overnight and assumed that James can't grade. James didn't pluck the grade out of thin air. He has obviously taken his experiences from doing routes like Equilibrium and tried to make a comparative statement which is that for him the groove was equally as difficult as an overall experience ie better protected but technically harder. Now the difficulty arises in trying to breakdown the 2 experiences into a comparative situation. That is how the 2 routes suited his phsique, conditions on the day of ascent and so on. This is hugely difficult to do as I know from experience. I spent days and days doing Neil's wall sit start at beginners wall and was convinced it was 8a+. The problem I created for myself was that I tried the problem in isolation in the middle of the hottest summer on record. The result was that I didn't have the best sequence, conditions weren't perfect and in addition it was way way easier if you were over 5ft 10. So does this mean I can't grade - of course not - it just means that the experience of doing the route/problem is different for different people and so they come to a different grading conclusion. I really sympathise with James, he hasn't done anything wrong, he climbed a new route, had to grade it, and used his past experiences to do so. Just because one person finds a route easier doesn't mean a route is any easier, we need more ascents before that conclusion can be drawn.
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Just because one person finds a route easier doesn't mean a route is any easier, we need more ascents before that conclusion can be drawn.
Nail on head.
I don't know James either so accusations that it's just "his mates" defending him are utter crap. This is not just "expressing opinions" it's blatantly slagging someone off for no reason. The embarrasing thing about being English at the moment is not the standard of our climbing but the standard of our armchair critics' attitude.
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I really sympathise with James, he hasn't done anything wrong, he climbed a new route, had to grade it, and used his past experiences to do so. Just because one person finds a route easier doesn't mean a route is any easier, we need more ascents before that conclusion can be drawn.
Exactly, total sense, well said Travs.
Edit: And Jasper.
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I might be wrong but I think the main reason James upgraded it was because he tried another E11, did all the moves in one session and thought it to be relatively easy compared to the Groove.
Its a shame idiots like gangle have ruined what is quite a good thread.
Climbers like Pearson, McCloud and McClure have been pushing British standards for a while now.
Maybe James needs to change his name to McPearson?
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exactly travs - james and dmc leod are the only people doing hard headpoint s at the mo (oh and jordan sorry) so they are operating in a bubble with no moderating influences until now. until these routes have been done a few more times they will remain difficult to grade and therefore there is bound to be some fluctuation in peoples very subjective opinion of a route s true difficulty. no one seems to be taking into account that james eschews the use of mats. whatver your opinion of this ethical standpoint it definitely has a huge bearing on the feel of a little gritty route. big pile of boulders - large bouldering mat you choose.
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Another good point there pritch, forgot to mention that
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I also think its dreadfull the bashing that James is getting, especially when both of the routes climbed and downgraded were done in a different way or not done at all. The promise was done using a different sequence and with mats and The Groove wasn't done at all. Did KJ not say that Pearsons sequences on both where impossible, IMPOSSIBLE. I don't know Mr Pearson but i hope the shit talked about his monster achievements are ignored.
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Critics are like eunuchs at an orgy ..... They can talk about what's going on , but they haven't got the balls to do it themselves .....
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Critics are like eunuchs at an orgy ..... They can talk about what's going on , but they haven't got the balls to do it themselves .....
I like it. And of all the critics, wonder how many have ever actually done a FA, and of those how many have never got a grade wrong, cutting edge or not.
(not that I am saying he actually has got the grade wrong, as I am still not convinced by the evidence).
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This is just a case of numpties and the media blowing it all way out of proportion. These Americans have certainly impressed no end. Amazing stuff by both of them. The way I see it is that they have made Pearson look even better, not an overgrader.
Facts: KJ couldn't do Equilibrium in 6 or whatever days. He did the Promise with easier beta, rightly downgrading it, as others say it is hard to see the wood for the trees on an FA so James got it wrong, big deal. KJ couldn't do the Groove. He did a variation, which is easier.
KJ seems like a nice bloke from the stuff you read and has in no way dissed JP.
A sad tale about some wicked stuff. That tick list is legendary. They should be proud.
Inspiring, I guess most of us sensible folk just take that away from this and none of this 2008-internet-forum-wannbees-media-hype-shyte.
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I like it. And of all the critics, wonder how many have ever actually done a FA, and of those how many have never got a grade wrong, cutting edge or not.
(not that I am saying he actually has got the grade wrong, as I am still not convinced by the evidence).
I've never done a FA and I am not questioning the fact that some very impressive routes have been climbed by JP and DM. But at the risk of sounding like a stuck record E10 should be hard and I think great care should be taken with using grades of E11 and above. It took 16 years to get from E9 to 10, Overshadow is 'only' hard E10 - asking questions about what a grade means is something that can be done without having direct experience of that grade. If you want to throw insults around feel free to accuse me of having a nerdish interest in such things, but leave off with the histrionics please ::)
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I don't see it as histionics, only opinion giving. Why do you view it as histrionics? Would love to insult you based on that response, but won't
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It took 16 years to get from E9 to 10
It took less then a year to get from E8 to E9
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I haven't read UKC recently and neither am I going to, but on this thread there are about 100 deafening, clamering, outraged voices defending James Pearson from the evil hordes, which amount to just Gangle. Pearson surely does not require this amount of defence from UKB readers. If you feel UKC are being unjust to Pearson then get over there and defend him, but it sounds a bit pathetic on here where 99% of people have respect for Pearsons efforts.
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I tried so hard not to post on this thread, but the last page or so has quite pissed me off.
You all seem to be saying that there is absolutely no place for discussion about this, and all James' critics should just shut up. I think this is totally indefensible. I can readily accept that some of the debate has been childish, and thoughtless, but that doesn't mean there's nothing to think about here, both for the wider public and James in general. For fiend to highlight this thread as a paragon of sensible discussion when perhaps a third of the posts are people suggesting that anyone considering that James's routes might be overgraded are "player-haters", "sniping idiots" or simply without bollocks is just amazing.
James is a really great climber; he's keen, he's talented and his solution to the Groove could almost be described as visionary. I've seen him described on these forums as "the climber of our generation", and the way he describes his routes ("the hardest route on grit", "with hindsight E11") backs this up.
In this context, someone repeating these routes and suggesting (as Kevin did on his blog) that they are no harder than some of Miles Gibson's ten year old grit routes is well worth thinking about. On the flip-side, it's only one person's opinion and we all know how much slop there can be in grading. Does this mean James's routes are overgraded? Who knows. It's equally possible that Miles was climbing E9/10 all those years ago (perhaps more likely, knowing what a beast Miles is). Clearly, to reach a decision IN EITHER DIRECTION about whether James's routes are realistically graded is premature at the moment. Surely though, in the light of Kevin's trip, it's at least reasonable to discuss the possibility that James's grading frame of reference might be two grades out?
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:agree: Wise words Stu.....
My feelings exactly......I have read somewhere that James no longer has much interest in repeating other people's routes and that he is more interested in putting up his own (evident with The promise/The Groove/ TWOL), however maybe the downgrading of his own routes may lead to him repeating others to 'reassess' his grading scale????? (and yes i know what routes he already has on his CV)
Superstition would be a great place to start....
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I don't see it as histionics, only opinion giving. Why do you view it as histrionics? Would love to insult you based on that response, but won't
Feel free to insult me, I've got thick skin.
Just checking down the quotes available below we have 'eunuchs at a orgy', '2008-internet-forum-wannbees-media-hype-shyte', 'shit talked ', 'Its a shame idiots like... ', 'numpties', ' blatantly slagging someone off for no reason' -could we agree on very strong opinions in place of reasoned argument then?
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Eunuchs at an orgy is an insult I haven't used in years and its rathe pleasing to see it resurface.
Anyway, with regard to the issue at hand, Stu is correct and that there's nothing wrong with debate, even ill informed debate has its place however, having seen what's been posted on UKC I think that the debate has shifted a good distance from fair comment and debate and is within the realm of what might properly be considered defamation.
Grades are a subjective matter and exist solely within a societal construct, as such the validity of the grade depends on the societal norms accepted by the proposer of the grade and the norms of those assessing their interpretation of the grade: for this later group their opinion is coloured by factors which did not impinge on the grade initially mooted.
For me, what I find most unpleasant is the taint of dishonesty which too often accompanies the accusation of over grading but not undergrading. In short whether the proposed grades settle down is the arbiter to the appropriate garde but this is no indicator of the first ascensionist's integrity, ego or cacpacity.
You will recall the little farrago over 'Thumbing my father' on Stanage, the FA proposed a grade of V7 I thought V3/4, does this mean that the FA was overgrading? No. Does it mean that I was over grading? No. We both climbed a line in a similar place and expressed our own subjective judgements and are both correct, who was more correct will be for others to decide.
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i did not really want to post his picture, but I think all this talk about james being a massive overgrader is getting a little bit silly now,
(http://www.4freeimagehost.com/uploads/74e27de45b34.jpg)
Isn't this just making a joke that Kevin Jorgeson thought that the UK grading system was closed and the upper end was E10 until he and James chatted (see the paragraph that follows the Andy Popp quote (http://jamespearsonclimbing.blogspot.com/2008/11/since-returning-from-china-which-by-way.html))?
At least thats how I interpreted it, I guess others will see it differently.
neilh : if you don't want to post things you don't have to
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I don't see it as histionics, only opinion giving. Why do you view it as histrionics? Would love to insult you based on that response, but won't
Feel free to insult me, I've got thick skin.
Just checking down the quotes available below we have 'eunuchs at a orgy', '2008-internet-forum-wannbees-media-hype-shyte', 'shit talked ', 'Its a shame idiots like... ', 'numpties', ' blatantly slagging someone off for no reason' -could we agree on very strong opinions in place of reasoned argument then?
That wasn't me saying that, I now understand where you are coming from now. Strange time to quote me though.
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Yes, discussion is most certainly needed, and it needs to be removed from any discussion of the personalities involved. As someone involved in guidebooks, it would be nice to have a rational debate about the grades of these things, free from any sense that you were hurting someone's feelings.
Things like posting that cartoon seemed only designed to hurt feelings, which is the other side of the coin.
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Quite right Grimer, me old mucker.
There has been some postings, especially in the other place, which seem designed simply to offend James. If that was prevalent on this thread I'd have had a go at that too.
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Yes, discussion is most certainly needed, and it needs to be removed from any discussion of the personalities involved. As someone involved in guidebooks, it would be nice to have a rational debate about the grades of these things, free from any sense that you were hurting someone's feelings.
The debate as I see it is how on earth do you grade these super-short, bouldery things. I graded my route at Black Rocks E7 7a, not cos it was dangerous in any way. In fact it is effectively 1 move with perfect gear by your feet. But grading it E6 seemed ridiculous. E for effort doesn't necessarily mean long and pumpy I don't think.
On the grit, we know that grades can be very subjective. I mean, poor old Lisa 5'3 Rands didn't exactly have the same challenge on EOTA or Gaia as Alex 'The Giant' Honhold. The cruxes of these two routes are so much harder if you're short (in fact, done completely differently in the case of Gaia).
P.S. Stu - I don't think it's worth getting angry about it and I don't think anyone is saying we can't debate the grades of routes we haven't been on ;). I don't know JP at all, but what winds me up a bit is how quickly some people are to suggest that JP was 'a bit daft' to have graded The Promise E10 or The Groove E10.
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Speaking of the other place, having read a couple of the threads its amazing that they haven't been pulled, I wonder why? Lazy, ignorant and crass journalism or is it because they have a vested interest in controversey in keeping the visitor numbers up and with it the advertising revenues?
Anyway here's to the first E13 due in late 2009 / early 2010. :-\
T_B spot on about the physical element of the E grade representing the required amount of strength, power and stamina (punklet, flying butress direct and rock idol) but let's also not forget that the E grade is for the onsight. Things like life assurance are probably just about E6 for the onsight but very very soft if you've spent a while practising the moves (in other words it isn't E6). There is a rational argument for giving short grit routes bouldering grades and a rating of U, AA, A, X, XXX and to be honest I would support this but having said that I'd rather have the E5 tick for Help the Young than V7 A font 7a+ A :P
I tried to kick off a rational debate about grades on the bouldering thread but with approaching 100 viewings it has yet to receive a reply which means my argument is flawless or its johny dawes esq random ramblings which makes as much sense as reality tv.
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Well said Stu, Rich, NCB, Ian P etc.
The level of outrage evident here is way off the mark. Even Gangle's posts were hardly earth shatteringly offensive. I went back and read them and they seemed fairly tame (one was a provocative suggestion, one just a statement of 'fact' regarding bouldering grades). James is in the limelight, there will always be the odd stray potshot sent in his direction. Like JB said, you hear way more scandalous banter (about all sorts of climbers) at the crag every day.
(PS Where did the piss take photo thing come from? Did somebody send it to you Neil?)
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hello, I have a suggestion, it is simple, why dont some of you get on the Groove, on lead or on a top rope? There are a few here who are very good climbers/boulderers. I have been on the Groove and although it may be hard I cannot see how it could be E11, if it is E8 7C+font it should be within many of your capabilities. This is a very simple solution, and I cant see what is to stop you, oh and by the way I am well capapable of E8 and would defo give a safe route like this a go. I am not capable of E10 or E11, so I whish I was in the area, to try. I very much hope this helps, do not look apon it as anything else than a helpful suggestion, Gimmer would like to know, I would like to know, many of you would like to know. Stevie.
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alas i'm saving it for the onsight. sucks to be me.
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I don't care about much in climbing but I care even less if Pearson can grade or not.
He can fucking climb and that's where it's at, ladies. :bow:
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He can fucking climb and that's where it's at, ladies. :bow:
well put Houd.
(I would like to point out that the anonymous sniping on this thread isn't so anonymous)
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I wonder if squirrels grade their routes?
They climb everything with apparent ease.
And then there's monkeys ...
Curious, one suspects their grading system is leaps and bounds ahead of ours.
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Quite.
It's like the H-grade. It never took off outside my sphere yet I rate it.
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Yes, tiz a same the world is allegedly so quantifiable, just as subjectivism cuts us of from this or that, so do over zealous tape measurers.
The world has tipped scales way beyond its capacity for measurement and is crumbling at every crust.
Love of something does not require obsession nor health and safety dayglo.
As the world apparently spins ever faster, more and more of us, (animals and plants too) continue to be hurled off in illness and dis-ease, premature death and extinction.
And we are saving the planet with what?
Clearly the planet will prevail, its just Us crazy men really thinking help!
THEeverinCreasingWANTfoRnumberSandSUccess.GiVEmeGiveme=iaMtheBeSTThinking=pOverTy
The way we go on on this forum is just a mirror for the worlds fractious behaviour.
What really matters?
E numbers?
Or sitting down and having a real conversation?
How are we doing here?
Anxious, annoyed, desperate, jealous, happy, sad, whatever, need more....
Disorder, grows like cancer from our overt grasping and control freakery.
Who can i blame today or have a good rant at?
Americans? James Pearson? Bob Smith?
Taking account of the situation, one is able to relax, have a good look around, see further, and oh, yes i think i can fit a friend in there.
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THEeverinCreasingWANTfoRnumberSandSUccess.GiVEmeGiveme=iaMtheBeSTThinking=pOverTy
Forgot to add this can also lead to =Elitism and a whole host of other non-sense if left unchecked.
So yes there is a place for grading, but my understanding of it is that it is meant to give one a reflection of the nature of a route, which is where the Severe, Hard Very Soft, bit comes in.
Seems like the whole spiral of £$£$£$£$£$ distorts the focus somewhat.
ONly we can judge the quality of our experience, however this is only part of the broken mirror, if we do not have enough self-knowledge, honesty, self-reflection then our motivation can be cloudy.
SO how to clean one's internal mirror?
This is beyond the physical mind and requires a whole bunch of ears.
Silence.
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Too many silver spoons / trustafarianism PATruL, there lies (one of) the problem(s).
Oh! You want to earn a good living from something you enjoy?! Well fuck me! I'll bake a cake . . .
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Ooooh, i think youve really put the cake amongst the pigeons.
I'm off to bed to read.
Good night and good baking.
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If you try to make a living out of something you enjoy , you'll still end up begrudging it ....
Read about your pseudo-babble cakes PaTruL by all means , bake your pseudo-babble cakes by all means , just stop regurgitating them on an unsuspecting public .....
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alas i'm saving it for the onsight. sucks to be me.
I hope you've not watched Committed II yet then Dave...
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Interesting short interview with Alex Honnold (http://bjornpohl.blogspot.com/2008/11/honnold-on-uk-scene.html) with commentary on E-grades and pretty much summing up all the nonsense about grades rather nicely (as others have already done so here).
Any thoughts about E-grades compared to the R, S, X suffixes?
Obviously I'm still learning E grades since I've only been here for a month [and spent much of the time in the rain]. I think the concept of E grades is really good, they do convey a lot of information. But I don't really know all that well. I still mentally convert everything here back to YDS.
R and X wouldn't really work at all over here [on Grit at least] since virtually every route would be considered R. They work well in the US though because routes are generally taller and better protected.
Basically, a route is a route, it doesn't matter that much how you number it. Ultimately you still just have to look at the route and decide if it looks like something you can do.
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Apropos all the nonesense about grades: as a confirmed grumpy old man sick to death of hyper-inflation, that Promise thing looks like a pretty good candidate for E5 7a to me
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(https://images.furniture123.co.uk/F123images/Catalogue/vlrg/BUO001/Eagle%20Tara%20Armchair.jpg)
(http://www.tvgasm.com/shows/images/kn/season1/critic.jpg)
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Easy, tiger...
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Not sure if this has been posted before, but this interview with Kevin Jorgeson I came across (along with all the other interviews, blogs etc)probably says a lot about Team America's experience of the grit- http://ne2cproductions.com/blog/?p=115 (http://ne2cproductions.com/blog/?p=115) ,now I've never even climbed on the grit yet(I'm Irish), but I think it says a lot about the issues that have been raised, I don't think I can add anything that hasn't already been said, other than these guys seem to have nothing bad to say about their experience, and that even through bad conditions and getting to grips with a foreign grading system, the thing that stands out is the world class quality of the climbing, along with the history and the aura that surrounds them and the hospitality of the climbers, and that's what you guys have to be proud of.
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A short interview with Alex Honold which includes some thoughts on understanding the UK grading system (http://www.momentumvm.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=273&Itemid=43)
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Nice one slackers.
To be fair to James, all the BS about the grading of the Promise took place before we'd really done anything. Later in the trip we did End of the Affair and Gaia, both considered benchmark E8 and both miles easier and safer [well similarly safe at least, hard to compare]. So if we take those as E8 then the Promise has to be at least E9. And Kevin and I both used crash pads at the base, which makes it a lot less scary.
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GrAPEs
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"You can't hide from the Truth, because the truth is all there is."
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PATRuL Are you Si oconnors Brother or just deluded ?
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NeiTHEr and BotH.
Dependent on the oscillation of said MomENt in SPace/tiMe
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WHat about you BUngle?
And are you any relatioin to Zippy?
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Oh, ok then. I'll go to E7 ;)
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WHat about you BUngle?
And are you any relatioin to Zippy?
no we're just friends he is between George and I
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1355000/images/_1359371_rainbow_300.jpg)
between you and I, George is winking at you .........
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Bit of a silly question, they don't even look alike.