UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: shark on May 06, 2020, 03:01:37 pm
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Jumping the gun a bit (though better discussed beforehand) I’m interested in views on what changed behaviour folk might expect of each other in particular at busy venues with respect transmission risk, safety and minimising visibility public/landowner disapproval.
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I’m just going to do what I always do.
Smile at other Boulderers, slightly, in greeting; whilst indicating with overt body language an aversion to conversation or further civility. Call out if you need an ambulance, otherwise...
Snarl at walkers and day trippers, occasionally lob rocks, when they come too close.
Have loud, inexplicable, tantrums, swear nautically about foot slippage, damp holds, unexpected sharp bits.
Throw pad/shoes at other inanimate objects.
Give up and read book, whilst drinking coffee.
Get home and claim it was “really great” or “I really feel alive, y’know” and “I’ve nearly got it, just need to link it up”.
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I'd expect people to gracefully move on if I'm already at a particular sector / boulder.
Conversely, I like to think that I'd have a quick crack at something then move on rather than hog a problem / area for an extended period of time...
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- If others are already climbing and you can't keep >2m apart then go elsewhere or wait it out politely. This probably means having multiple bail options lined up for when the crag you planned to go to turns out to already have people there.
- Don't climb with people from outside your household
- Don't break the social distancing rules above, but if you're going to break them then at least don't do it at a crag where walkers or locals won't see you
- Don't do shit that feels dangerous. If you are going to do it, then do it roadside so you don't have to do a 40min walk out on a broken ankle
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Do what I always do, wander off into the wilderness and climb some Esoteric pebble untouched by human gaze let alone hand, then leave it to resume its lonely vigil.
Don't break myself, sort out my own cock ups should they occur. I may avoid highballs, at least until I've run out of lowballs.
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I will continue to assume that I am infected and that any misstep I do will spread it to people with type 2 diabetes and other underlying conditions.
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Ultimately, we have to see what the government advice is. I believe in some countries they've been allowed to climb with someone from outside their household, provided that it's always the same person. Imagine the pressure of picking a partner, knowing that they're you're only rope-holder for the forseeable!
But other than that...:
TA DA!
www.unknownstones.com
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Also, this whole 2m thing is complete bollocks, is it not? Have you never walked behind a smoker at a distance greater than 2m? Are you telling me that virus particles are somehow so incredibly dense that they plummet to the ground as soon as they leave someone's mouth?
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- stick to venues without known access issues.
- if possible choose less public venues over more public venues.
- stay within your local county, at most crossing one county boundary.
- follow guidance which doesn't exist yet from climbing's representative body, on which venues to avoid because access is considered especially sensitive.
- if challenged by members of the public act with courtesy and politely explain the low risks inherent in bouldering and what you're doing to stick to social distancing measures. Remember people may be filming what you do and what you say.
- follow advice which doesn't exist yet from climbing's representative body, on best practice for bouldering post-lockdown.
- carry a small bottle of hand sanitiser and use while at the crag.
- consider wearing a mask.
- avoid venues where social distancing can't be achieved.
- climb only with members of your household. If revised guidance allows out-of-household congregations, stick to the numbers advised in the guidance.
- obviously no climbing if showing any symptoms of covid.
- don't come to Wales unless you want a pitchfork up your arse.
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www.unknownstones.com
Imagine walking 45 mins into some esoteric choss to try the one good problem then finding someone else there 😂
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Unusually - what Barrows said :) With a smattering of OMM.
Also use I’ll use more liquid chalk - that from what I can deduce is basically hand sanitiser (alcohol based) with some Sticky resin and chalk Mixed into it...
Oh - and avoid anything that is plastered with chalk or that another party has just been on (or be very careful).
I’m quite happy being on my own when climbing - and often choose to be (avoiding others) so not anticipating anything too bad.
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Also, this whole 2m thing is complete bollocks, is it not? Have you never walked behind a smoker at a distance greater than 2m? Are you telling me that virus particles are somehow so incredibly dense that they plummet to the ground as soon as they leave someone's mouth?
Yeah it probably is.
Our policy at work following aerosol generating procedures (including surgery, intubation, etc) is to leave operating theatres for at least 20 mins before they are deep cleaned to allow for particles to settle.
If someone coughs all over the place in a supermarket isle I doubt very much that the area is locked down for 20 mins. And if they touch an item after coughing into their hand needless to say that is also a risk that overcomes social distancing.
That’s why social distancing is only part of a policy. It does reduce the amount of people crammed into a space at any one time, but does not negate the need to simply stay at home if it can be helped. And it also explains why we are still seeing new infections in our hospital and intensive care unit, albeit at a contained rate that is well within our capacity to cope.
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Although 2m may be bollocks, you probably need a line somewhere right - no distancing is clearly more dangerous, 200m clearly less dangerous. But when you rock up and are working out whether you're too close to someone, or whether you want to ask others to stay further away, 2m is an easy one to use because it's been in the media a lot. Otherwise you need to have a conversation with the people who just rocked up about how really you think 10m is more appropriate even if the gov say 2m etc... This may obviously be less relevant on esoterica, but it will undoubtedly occur at most peak lime venues
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Exactly, and 2m reduces crowding and therefore spread even if it isn’t a magic number. All the policies are designed to reduce, not stop, spread with the ultimate goal of getting R0 below 1.
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The 2m guidance is based on droplet transmission. Droplets move in air totally differently from smoke, to quote your example, and generally do drop to the ground. Aerosol transmission, on the other hand, travels much further, and would be more akin to smoke.
It is thought that droplet transmission is the primary driver of community spread. Aerosol transmission is not thought to be a major driver, but it is unclear having said that. It is believed to play an important role in spread within hospitals because of the number of aerosol-generating procedures (so I'm told, dont ask for further clarification here because thats all I got).
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I usually fuck off if there’s someone else at the crag anyway.
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The 2m guidance is based on droplet transmission. Droplets move in air totally differently from smoke, to quote your example, and generally do drop to the ground. Aerosol transmission, on the other hand, travels much further, and would be more akin to smoke.
It is thought that droplet transmission is the primary driver of community spread. Aerosol transmission is not thought to be a major driver, but it is unclear having said that. It is believed to play an important role in spread within hospitals because of the number of aerosol-generating procedures (so I'm told, dont ask for further clarification here because thats all I got).
Yeah, that is an important distinction. Personally I’d be surprised if AGPs were responsible for the spread in hospital. That’s not based on any specific science purely on the observation that no ITU staff (that I know of) have died from this coronavirus because they are wearing FFP3 masks. On the wards away from the AGPs they are wearing fluid resistant surgical masks and getting covid. They are of course having direct patient contact inside the 2m radius.
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Back on topic, I reckon I’ll be doing some unpopular Portland bouldering on a weekday when I get the chance.
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Spotting your mate from >2 meters away makes for an amusing photo / utube.
Everyone's head game will be gone after this extended fingerboard workout. Best to stick to the low stuff.
Seeing as though everyone's going to the 'unknown stones' crags, think I'll just go to the regular crags and stay away from the crowds.
People will have to risk assess for themselves if they feel happy going on a popular problem / crag that has multiple daily ascents, even if everyone gone home for the day.
Probably better going out the day after a big storm to blow the cobwebs away.
Speaking of which we have had the best connies in living history this spring. Grrrrrr...
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- If others are already climbing and you can't keep >2m apart then go elsewhere or wait it out politely. This probably means having multiple bail options lined up for when the crag you planned to go to turns out to already have people there.
- Don't climb with people from outside your household
- Don't break the social distancing rules above, but if you're going to break them then at least don't do it at a crag where walkers or locals won't see you
- Don't do shit that feels dangerous. If you are going to do it, then do it roadside so you don't have to do a 40min walk out on a broken ankle
I think this is basically the long and the short of it. I think expressly saying certain crags are a bad idea because they are popular will just make other crags popular instead. Better to include as many as possible (basically all those where there are no access issues) and hope people are sensible? Cant see another way apart from eterno lockdown.
Interesting question: are we going to see a spike in outdoor climbing due to the walls being shut or (more likely I think) will we see an initial spike, likely followed by a return to the norm as people realise outdoor climbing is hard, you have to walk in and the bolts are a long way apart/ on most climbing in the UK there arent any?
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I usually fuck off if there’s someone else at the crag anyway.
Most sensible people do the same if they arrive at the crag and you are there.
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Do what I always do, wander off into the wilderness and climb some Esoteric pebble untouched by human gaze let alone hand, then leave it to resume its lonely vigil.
Don't break myself, sort out my own cock ups should they occur. I may avoid highballs, at least until I've run out of lowballs.
Pretty much this. Might buy another pad just to be sure.
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classic British Spotting now shown to have value
stand away from the climber with hands in pockets, preferably looking the other way
win win win oof
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- stay within your local county, at most crossing one county boundary.
I presume this was included just to annoy the Sheffield residents?
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Shark's just put a bid in for that derelict farm building on the left of the path on the walk into Malham...
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6am sessions G style for me.
Plus what Barrows said. And jwi. And OMM.
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Och I will do pretty much do what I always do when eventually we are released into the wilds.
I will be alone(cause I’m a Cunt)sitting beneath the start holds of a unclimbed semi clean/semi damp Highland boulder miles from the nearest Road/Person/Contagion in a vain attempt at conquering my latest project , most likely with little or no success.
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Och I will do pretty much do what I always do when eventually we are released into the wilds.
I will be alone(cause I’m a Cunt)sitting beneath the start holds of a unclimbed semi clean/semi damp Highland boulder miles from the nearest Road/Person/Contagion in a vain attempt at conquering my latest project , most likely with little or no success.
Dave says hi
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I'll be trying to find places with little chance of passers-by (which unfortunately might rule-out the obvious option of Ilkley - which is inside walking distance), within, say, a 20 minute drive (Mr Unknownstones, you will have PMs!).
More of a Powerclub musing perhaps, but I am very curious about how any climbing this year will go. So far, I have spent 6 weeks doing the following every week: 3x bodyweight exercise sessions (a progressive programme of calisthenics and pull-ups lasting 1.5 hours), 2x Beastmaker 2000 app sessions (currently each session near 1.5 hours - 6c routine to warm-up, then 2x 7c, albeit cheating on the sloper reps), and a 40 minute TRX session. Plus on weekends, I do long walks on the moors (usually 3 hours).
The result is hopefully that my core and upper body are stronger than ever, and my fingers are still in decent condition (in "normal" times I just used to climb during the weekend and do one fingerboard session midweek). So, I have hope that this spell of non-climbing has addressed some weaknesses and, once I get used to moving on rock again, I'll be better for it.
But I do find the prospect of being a better climber for not climbing a bit depressing! My view was that it was best to climb as much as possible. It might not be the most "efficient" regimen but the enjoyment makes up for it and gives the best long term results. Obtaining personal proof that sacrificing climbing for training is for the best seems a mixed blessing. If my new-found steel tendons and body-tension-of-an-ironing-board lead to a decent autumn and winter ticklist, how will that affect my relationship with climbing? Will I feel bound to sacrifice time on rock for more dedicated training? Still, all pretty moot at the moment......
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- stay within your local county, at most crossing one county boundary.
I presume this was included just to annoy the Sheffield residents?
Because of the dearth of decent climbing between the two counties of Yorkshire and Derbyshire? Yeah poor lambs.
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I'd expect people to gracefully move on if I'm already at a particular sector / boulder.
You'd hope so. But the the last time I went bouldering a week or so before the locked I was just warming up and two others turned up, I asked if they'd mind going to another sector for a bit and coming back as I wouldn't be long, and their response was 'no we've come to climb here' and ridiculed my request to maintain a decent distance, so I had to pack up and go.
To be honest it had totally put me off climbing anyway. Left feeling pretty despondent about the whole experience.
Hopefully there aren't too many similarly selfish, ignorant people out there.
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My plan is to don a fascist paramilitary uniform* and patrol various crags with my laser measuring device. As soon as somebody breaks the 2m distancing rule I'll shout out "dab" using my Dalek voice vocoder and then in my normal voice say "back around mate".
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Hopefully there aren't too many similarly selfish, ignorant people out there.
Aye, right.
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Also use I’ll use more liquid chalk - that from what I can deduce is basically hand sanitiser (alcohol based) with some Sticky resin and chalk Mixed into it...
The question is whether the alcohol percentage is high enough -- needs to be over 60% to work as hand sanitizer, and liquid chalk tends to contain thickeners and other stuff as well as chalk.
I've been trying and failing to find info on the alcohol percentage of any brands (apart from the low-alcohol or alcohol-free ones!). You'd think an enterprising company would jump on it.
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This could be calculated as ABV (alcohol by volume) with A simple expt non? Pour some into a measure - let the alcohol evaporate and see what volume of ‘residue’ is left?
Might try with an old calpol syringe later :D
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My plan is to don a fascist paramilitary uniform* and patrol various crags with my laser measuring device. As soon as somebody breaks the 2m distancing rule I'll shout out "dab" using my Dalek voice vocoder and then in my normal voice say "back around mate".
How are you going to get hold of a Torbay traffic warden’s get up from that end of the country?
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This could be calculated as ABV (alcohol by volume) with A simple expt non? Pour some into a measure - let the alcohol evaporate and see what volume of ‘residue’ is left?
Might try with an old calpol syringe later :D
By weight, possibly.
Surely the chalk sediment/structure will have significant vesicles and thus an inflated volume?
I’ll wait until your paper has been peer reviewed TT.
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I'd expect people to gracefully move on if I'm already at a particular sector / boulder.
You'd hope so. But the the last time I went bouldering a week or so before the locked I was just warming up and two others turned up, I asked if they'd mind going to another sector for a bit and coming back as I wouldn't be long, and their response was 'no we've come to climb here' and ridiculed my request to maintain a decent distance, so I had to pack up and go.
To be honest it had totally put me off climbing anyway. Left feeling pretty despondent about the whole experience.
Hopefully there aren't too many similarly selfish, ignorant people out there.
I imagine people will be dicks like this occasionally. I fully intend on taking a photo and internet shaming them unless anyone can convince me not to..
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This could be calculated as ABV (alcohol by volume) with A simple expt non? Pour some into a measure - let the alcohol evaporate and see what volume of ‘residue’ is left?
Might try with an old calpol syringe later :D
By weight, possibly.
Surely the chalk sediment/structure will have significant vesicles and thus an inflated volume?
I’ll wait until your paper has been peer reviewed TT.
Experiment is running.... its taking a while for the alcohol to evaporate (forms quite a good seal)...
It would be better if I did it by weight - but I don't have any dealers scales...
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6am sessions G style for me.
Not likely to find a passing Spaniard on a bike these days.
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Dave says hi
[/quote]
Which one-
McLeod, Douglas or Wheeler?
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I'd expect people to gracefully move on if I'm already at a particular sector / boulder.
You'd hope so. But the the last time I went bouldering a week or so before the locked I was just warming up and two others turned up, I asked if they'd mind going to another sector for a bit and coming back as I wouldn't be long, and their response was 'no we've come to climb here' and ridiculed my request to maintain a decent distance, so I had to pack up and go.
To be honest it had totally put me off climbing anyway. Left feeling pretty despondent about the whole experience.
Hopefully there aren't too many similarly selfish, ignorant people out there.
I imagine people will be dicks like this occasionally. I fully intend on taking a photo and internet shaming them unless anyone can convince me not to..
I think people's willingness to compromise will be significantly different in mid May than mid March. It was a very different world then. Was barely on lots of people's radar. I went bouldering a week before lockdown too, and would have been a bit put out if some one asked me to go somewhere else cos they were there first. A week later went sport climbing but felt a bit unsure about it. That was the just before lockdown and the debate on here was just getting going. Obviously would react differently now as I suspect would most. Calling people selfish and ignorant for being happy to climb at the same sector as others in mid march is a bit harsh.
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Half of Sheffield will be at Griffs at 6am I reckon.
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- stay within your local county, at most crossing one county boundary.
I presume this was included just to annoy the Sheffield residents?
Because of the dearth of decent climbing between the two counties of Yorkshire and Derbyshire? Yeah poor lambs.
Counties are such an arbitrary measure. If I walked out of the front door of my last house and turned left, I could pass through 4 counties in the first quarter of a mile. Or I could turn right, get in the car and drive nearly 70 miles due South and never leave the county.
If there's going to be any meaningful travel restrictions, they have to be based on distance or maybe time, not some arbitrary lines drawn on a map.
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Of course, the whole thing is arbitrary if you haven't noticed! Essential / non-essential anyone? Counties at least make things pretty clear cut and easy to understand - you can't misinterpret being in Yorkshire.. ;)
Distance could work just as well, although it would suck to live on the coast and have half your potential area in the sea..
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I'll trade your half sized area for my full sized area? :please:
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you can't misinterpret being in Yorkshire.. ;)
Actually I don't think Yorkshire is a county nowadays, it's subdivided...
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Of course, the whole thing is arbitrary if you haven't noticed! Essential / non-essential anyone? Counties at least make things pretty clear cut and easy to understand - you can't misinterpret being in Yorkshire.. ;)
Distance could work just as well, although it would suck to live on the coast and have half your potential area in the sea..
But you have coast to explore!!
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you can't misinterpret being in Yorkshire.. ;)
Actually I don't think Yorkshire is a county nowadays, it's subdivided...
Don’t talk yourself out of access to Malham and Kilnsey!
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He’d be ok under my ‘2 county rule’.
I’ll have Gwynedd and Cumbria.
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- stay within your local county, at most crossing one county boundary.
I presume this was included just to annoy the Sheffield residents?
Because of the dearth of decent climbing between the two counties of Yorkshire and Derbyshire? Yeah poor lambs.
Think Burbage is 'in'?
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I went bouldering for the first time last Sunday and followed pretty much the same as all above. Was by myself for most of it and met up with a partner later (only person I'm going to be climbing with for a while). At one point there were other people at the craglet, but we both kept to problems > 6ft apart. Was definitely more cognizant of riskier boulders or being seen to be doing something risky by hikers passing by
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This could be calculated as ABV (alcohol by volume) with A simple expt non? Pour some into a measure - let the alcohol evaporate and see what volume of ‘residue’ is left?
Might try with an old calpol syringe later :D
OK - the results are in.
Exec summary is 65% by volume alchol. US FDA recommends sanitizer > 60%.
Methods: I found a half decent looking 5ml syringe and a small plastic cap that held (when filled to the point of overflowing) 2ml. I filled the cap with shaken liquid chalk (the Rock Technologies stuff) to the same level as the water then left it to dry. I had to come back several times and stir/squidge it with a toothpick. By this evening it had shrunk in volume as the alchohol evaporated etc.. and I refilled the cavity left with water (using the toothpick to pop out any air bubbles).
Results: 1.3ml of water = 0.65 as a proportion or 65%.
US FDA recommends hand sanitisers with >60% ethanol - so I think we pass that limit - or are certainly close. Quite how the chalk or small amounts of rosin with the mix affect virus I don't know. Also worth mentioning that the alcohol in the liquid chalk makes the hands very dry as it evaporates. Again this may have an impact. Usual experimental error caveats.
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Great science TT! Thank you.
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Awesome, thank you for doing the experiment! Obviously replication is required, and it may well vary between brands, but it's useful to know that it's potentially in the ball park.
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"Thanks for your email, the Ethanol content in RT liquid chalk is between
70 and 80% and I can confirm that the product is antibacterial."
That was the response from Rock Technologies when I emailed.
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For those who don’t like liquid chalk maybe getting a cheap bottle of ethanol is an alternative to use before chalking up. It’s good for getting rid of grease too
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"Thanks for your email, the Ethanol content in RT liquid chalk is between
70 and 80% and I can confirm that the product is antibacterial."
That was the response from Rock Technologies when I emailed.
Excellent! My measurements were not so far off then!!
And well done for emailing them.
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Disappointing to see insta-spray from people who really should know better - visiting ‘esoteric’ crags with access issues clearly near peoples houses etc... Knobs.
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Presumably this is aimed at me? If so we can discuss offline if you like.
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In the street! :boxing: :boxing: :boxing:
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Obviously there must be video evidence of the event, in line with current ukb rules and regulations. :chair:
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I don’t even know if he is referring to me. But on second thoughts there’s maybe use in a public discussion.
TT, since the other thread is moving onto access issues I’ll post there and I’d be interested in your opinion.
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Damn, wish i used instagram properly, missing all the spray..