UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => get involved: access, environment, BMC => Topic started by: i_a_coops on May 01, 2013, 01:23:38 pm
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http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=548025 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=548025)
Apparently a certain Mr. Cox wants to take a hacksaw to the bolts on Cocytus. I think this would be a massive shame as it is a really nice route in its current state. Would be interested to hear what people think of this, although I don't think there's anything to be done other than smearing the whole route in Vaseline just before he turns up....
(And yes, I probably made matters worse by getting sucked in. I've renewed my vow never to post on the other channel....)
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Um, have I been trolled? :oops:
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Ha I didn't think he would, I was just interested to see if anyone else would particularly like the bolts to stay in Cocytus. It would appear not!
I'm never posting on the other channel again, it makes me feel like a tit.
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It does that to me too.
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It pains me to admit, but I'm with JCM on this one.
When the pegs on cocytus were originally replaced with bolts I talked JCM and others out of chopping the bolts. My arguments at the time were that it was done by locals in general agreement with local climbers and didn't change the character of the original route.
It saddens me a bit that cocytus has now been fully bolted. It might be 'nice' in its current state, but it was nice as a trad route too.
I think it's important every now and again to kick back against increasing bolting of old trad routes. I don't think the first ascensionist of cocytus was ever that happy with it being bolted...
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He's not been given the warmest reception on other ukb threads.
He didn't exactly do himself any favours in that respect!
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I don't know the ins and outs of this route but it sounds like I think I agree with Stu. Using the replacement of pegs with bolts as a staging post for full bolting is out of order and does the cause of sensible route by route situ-gear assessment no favours. The retro-bolters are essentially proving the thin-end-of-the-wedgers to be right!
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What Bonjoy, Stu, and Coxy said. Sure he's all a bit Ken Wilson about it, but people do need to be fighting that corner.
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So as I understand it, Ken Palmer did this as part of other bolting at Ansteys. And Ken is clearly someone who merits some respect. So I think John should make sure he has talked to Ken before taking any action.
:agree:
Unless he has changed a lot since I knew him, he is definately not the type to unilaterally go gung ho on something like that.
Anyway, Ansteys is a sport crag and I dont see how the retroing of the one random trad route to be a big deal (especially if it improves the higher part of the route). That guy cox, sounds like a right tool.
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Anyway, Ansteys is a sport crag and I dont see how the retroing of the one random trad route to be a big deal (especially if it improves the higher part of the route). That guy cox, sounds like a right tool.
This quote perfectly illustrates why it is such a big deal. Anstey's is prominently a sport crag *now* but it got that way due to a process of creeping retro-bolting. Routes like cocytus and empire of the sun have gone from pegged up trad routes to hybrid sport routes to spicy sport routes and finally ended up as well bolted clip-ups.
Cocytus itself is far from a random trad route but was viewed as a classic SW E3 for many years. Perhaps the fact that people are a bit sniffy about it now has something to do with the fact that its just another 6c these days? Also, it has been at the forefront of the bolting issue from the start and is therefore something of a signature route. The original replacement of the pegs with bolts saw a very controversial chopping of the bolts by guys I was at Uni with - this was endlessly debated in the mags at the time. Eventually replacement of the pegs with staples was accepted largely because I (and others) argued that this wouldn't lead to the creeping sportification of the cliff. It's obvious in hindsight that I was wrong.
I agree that Ken will have thought about this carefully and consulted with other locals, but I think he, and they, are wrong in this case. If Ken can put bolts in after talking to a few folk locally, why should JCM have to get Ken's approval to take the out? It can certainly be argued that he has consulted more thoroughly and widely than Ken.
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It felt like a sport crag to me back in 89/90 even if there was pegs rather than bolts, the nature of the fixed protection seem to me to be splitting hairs. Im pretty sure stuff like empire would have been bolted right from the off, if nick had had enough money to buy bolts.
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I was born here, in Paignton.
I learned to climb here and all around the SW.
Started climbing with my Dad when I was 8.
Climbed with Ron Heart up in North Cornwall (and had my first weekend/holiday job, Assistant instructor in the Cheese ring, Kit Hill etc etc).
With Wendy and crowd out at Chudleigh.
Sport was for wusses (late 70's early 80's).
Now I have my own kids.
My eldest is 7.
She leads 6a on the wall, but 4/5 on the rock.
She can't haul a lead rack! I wouldn't bloody let her lead anyway (my Dad let me lead my first route on The slabs below Tryffan when I was 12).
Now we have to drive to Portland to find low grade sport routes.
Why can't we have a few (relatively) low grade routes down here?
I don't speak for anyone else, it's just an opinion. I've not climbed it, but I will once the wall is up and running and I have time to breathe again.
If the bolts are chopped, will he re-peg it?
Or just leave the ones he likes?
But then it would just be a hybrid.
This would be the first time I've ever been dragged into the bolting debate, but since I now live in St Marychurch, five minutes from the cove (home after 25 years), I want to be able to climb without other people dictating to me how I should do it.
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Obviously this is a gray area. Anstey's has always felt like a sport crag to me too. I've climbed empire in all of its forms and they all felt like a sport route. But the nature of the gear clearly does affect the place. Would we be having this discussion if those pegs hadn't been replaced with bolts?
And I can appreciate the desire to have some local easy sport climbing, but come on son! Portland is not exactly far. Cheddar is closer. And then there's Torbryan. And the less pleasant quarries. I remember feeling a bit funny when Mayfair was bolted but I let it go because back then I thought that it would be a one off sort of thing.
The point I'm making is that these decisions need to be seen in a national, not just a local context. And sadly that means you cant just go climbing without being dictated to by others, since in doing so you dictate unto them. The tide in the bolting debate is turning. Requests like the above for just a bit of easy sport climbing are becoming more common. And they're hard to say no to, because in many respects they're perfectly reasonable. But if we don't start pushing back against them occasionally then, one day, we'll be having this conversation about somewhere like chee tor. Maybe eventually even places like stanage. I know that sounds ridiculous, but there are crags like high tor where 10 years ago I'd have said the same. Now look at it.
Given its history I think cocytus is one of those routes where it matters.
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but there are crags like high tor where 10 years ago I'd have said the same. Now look at it.
Look at what ? The right wing is bolted but that feels like a separate crag. There are some bolts left of Castellan but otherwise the Main face and Left Wing are unchanged.
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Cocytus itself is far from a random trad route but was viewed as a classic SW E3 for many years.
FWIW I dispute this too. When I lived in London, in my twenties, weekends were all about ticking the SW trad classics, and the E3-E5 range was predominantly where our ambitions lay. I never recall any mention of Cocytus as an interesting objective.
Possibly because it was measly two star E2 in the Bible according to Pat.... (a guide that had not a single sport route in it. I think we can guess what the first ascentionist thinks about all this).
I support John Cox with the proviso that the bolts come out only if a neat and tidy job can be done.
I counted the routes at Anstey’s in S.Devon guide. More than half were trad. Mixed sport and trad. crags are one of those typical British compromises: nonsensical but work pretty well in practice with different styles coexisting more-or-less happily in places like Cheedale, Avon and the Slate. Co-existing happily until someone decides to “to test the waters”. If there is any future in ‘mixed’ crags then at some point someone has to say no to the creeping retro.ing of all inland limestone.
Like Stu’, I’ve always thought that such decisions are not just for locals to make when the crag is of more than local importance. Who decides on fixed gear at Pembroke? The developers (most notably from Cardiff, Stoke and Bristol)? The users (from everywhere)? Or two men and a dog from Tenby? It’s clearly not the latter. Of the last 30 Cocytus ascentionists using UKC logbooks and whose location was identifiable from their profiles, only 6 were locals (stretching the definition to include anyone from Devon). It’s not a route to be left to tender local mercies.
I fancy dusting off my RPs and having a go at a de-bolted Cocytus later this year.
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Maybe eventually even places like stanage.
Wow. Godwin's Law and from the person I'd least expect it. Wot no Indian Face?
C'mon Stu, your point about Chee Tor is surely null as it's the same point people made 25 years ago when the Cornice was bolted..... and yet the crag is still the same, with the same fantastic trad routes and with a few bolts.
I know nothing about the Ansteys situation so I can't really comment, other than that my default position with Mr Cox is to be skeptical as there's a fine line between ethical soundness and ego driven nonsense.
Ahem.
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The thing is though jasper, that I made the same arguments (almost word for word) to the thin-enders 5-10 years ago. I thought they were being ridiculous back then too, but look at high tor, and ansteys and crags like that.
I'm sure you don't spend much time on the other site, but last year there was a thread debating the wholesale bolting of stoney. The pro/con split on that thread was maybe 50/50. 5 years ago you'd have been pilloried for suggesting it.
So I agree I'm painting the most pessimistic picture possible, but if ten years on high tor, chee tor and stoney are sport crags then I wouldn't be surprised.
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Anstey's is one of the best steep limestone crags in the country. Whether that says more about anstey's or the UK, I'm not sure.
I'm never that comfortable with arguments that these decisions should be decided by locals. As I've tried to point out above, they set a tone which affects things nationally as well.
Even if you reject that, I don't think many people really hold to the idea that locals can do whatever they like. If the locals of Llanberis decided to paint Carreg Wastad in bright pink, how many in the climbing community would shrug and say "fair enough"?
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To Stu and Duncan
When you say you'd support the route being de-bolted, do you mean returned to the previous 2 bolt/peg situation that (I understand) existed since the FFA. Or do you mean no fixed protection at all?
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I'm never that comfortable with arguments that these decisions should be decided by locals. As I've tried to point out above, they set a tone which affects things nationally as well.
If that's a robust argument, why stop at "nationally"? Isn't "tone" in climbing being set globally these days?
No - I don't think it is. At least not to the same extent. Britain is, after all, notoriously parochial.
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To Stu and Duncan
When you say you'd support the route being de-bolted, do you mean returned to the previous 2 bolt/peg situation that (I understand) existed since the FFA. Or do you mean no fixed protection at all?
I honestly don't know. Logically I'd prefer a return to the status quo, but for some reason we can't seem to leave "hybrid" routes alone in this country. I think I'd be happy with either, but a return to it's default 2-bolt state would be less controversial.
As an aside, it's worth considering that if crags like anstey's didn't keep providing evidence that bolting inevitably expands onto old trad routes and nearby cliffs, then people like JCM might be *much* less hostile to the idea of bolting places like Carn Vellan. I think the creeping expansion of bolting on routes like cocytus and giantslayer is a bit of an own-goal by the sport climbing community...
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:agree:
C'mon Stu, your point about Chee Tor is surely null as it's the same point people made 25 years ago when the Cornice was bolted..... and yet the crag is still the same, with the same fantastic trad routes and with a few bolts.
The three star E4 White Gold was fully retro-bolted not so long back and with little public outcry. Plus a number of bolted fillers have been quietly added, mostly to the upper section. Not a huge change of status, but I'd wager it would sport more bolts were it not for the access situation.
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To Stu and Duncan
When you say you'd support the route being de-bolted, do you mean returned to the previous 2 bolt/peg situation that (I understand) existed since the FFA. Or do you mean no fixed protection at all?
Much as Stu'. I don't have a strong feeling either way. It's a little while since I looked at the route but I'm guessing there is little protection other than the 2 pegs / bolts. I'd be happy to see a return to the two bolt state having made the point. Taking them all out might provoke a further round of rebolting which is the last thing I want to see.
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The three star E4 White Gold was fully retro-bolted not so long back and with little public outcry. Plus a number of bolted fillers have been quietly added, mostly to the upper section. Not a huge change of status, but I'd wager it would sport more bolts were it not for the access situation.
Hmm. That's not good at all. Perhaps I didn't realise how bad things were getting in this respect......
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The three star E4 White Gold was fully retro-bolted not so long back and with little public outcry. Plus a number of bolted fillers have been quietly added, mostly to the upper section. Not a huge change of status, but I'd wager it would sport more bolts were it not for the access situation.
The outcry was deliberately muted online at least because of the access situation.
Whilst I don't agree with it being retro-bolted it was pretty much a clip-up on pegs before anyway.
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I can quite happily maintain my local's indifference if it was to revert to the two bolt status it had until last year. I think it would be a shame if it was totally debolted as jcm suggests in his wilder moments on t'other channel, as I think the number of ascents it would receive would then drop to near zero.
I do like the hybrid ethic we seem to manage down in the SW, whether at Ansteys, GO wall or Avon and it would be a shame to lose that and end up with an all or nothing approach for each crag.
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:agree:
C'mon Stu, your point about Chee Tor is surely null as it's the same point people made 25 years ago when the Cornice was bolted..... and yet the crag is still the same, with the same fantastic trad routes and with a few bolts.
The three star E4 White Gold was fully retro-bolted not so long back and with little public outcry. Plus a number of bolted fillers have been quietly added, mostly to the upper section. Not a huge change of status, but I'd wager it would sport more bolts were it not for the access situation.
I'd be in favour of leaving something like that to quietly become a bolder trad route, whether it got more traffic or less would be irrelevant in my view. I haven't done it for 20 yrs+ but I seem to recall a golot somewhere. I don't think this should have been rebolted, but will have to reclimb it this summmer to be secure in that judgment.
After all, if it were to then be VERY bold, you'd have a 3* E6/7 instead of E4. Hard to object to that, surely?
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I can quite happily maintain my local's indifference if it was to revert to the two bolt status it had until last year. I think it would be a shame if it was totally debolted as jcm suggests in his wilder moments on t'other channel, as I think the number of ascents it would receive would then drop to near zero.
I do like the hybrid ethic we seem to manage down in the SW, whether at Ansteys, GO wall or Avon and it would be a shame to lose that and end up with an all or nothing approach for each crag.
+1
With the rider, that the world would be a better place without egotistical, vigilante, self appointed avenging angels (not the posters here, who have had a civil (ish) debate).
And it's pretty hard to get me worked up about anything.
I shall be checking out the route this summer, assuming I ever find time to climb again.
And that's all I have to say about that...
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With the rider, that the world would be a better place without egotistical, vigilante, self appointed avenging angels (not the posters here, who have had a civil (ish) debate).
I haven't read the UKC thread in question, but couldn't the same adjectives be used to describe whoever retrobolted the route, if you happen to hold the opposing view? I'm not suggesting they'd apply, just that demonising either side doesn't seem that useful.
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Yep, and I forgot to say much of Stu's arguments resonated with me.
Not all, most.
I think the difference, for me, is the rhetoric and posturing.
I don't support the unilateral action of the bolter either.
The correct response to that, though, should have been through the BMC area meet, etc.
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He's not demonising them he's angelicising.
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Demand v supply provides the drive for sportification, but whether the demand gets supplied or not depends on the context. I'm sure at some level there is demand for bolted grit but the supply will not be met any time soon because the context is not permissive. It's reasonable to say assume that every route retro-bolted (especially so if nobody challenges the action) changes the context somewhat in favour of further retro-bolting. The more important the route the greater the change. Stu's take on the significance of Cocytus seems credible to me, (it's certainly I trad route I'd heard/read of as a none-local and wanted to do) and as such it does change the tone. Put another way, would it be more or less likely to have been retro-bolted now if classic routes up north like Darl, Countdown, Directisima and Yosemite Wall hadn't?
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To be fair, Yosemite wall, directisima even the cave routes L/RH are ONLY classic because someone stripped them of the piles of crappy tat and put some bolts in. :whistle:
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The three star E4 White Gold was fully retro-bolted not so long back and with little public outcry. Plus a number of bolted fillers have been quietly added, mostly to the upper section. Not a huge change of status, but I'd wager it would sport more bolts were it not for the access situation.
Whilst I don't agree with it being retro-bolted it was pretty much a clip-up on pegs before anyway.
Hmm :-\
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The three star E4 White Gold was fully retro-bolted not so long back and with little public outcry. Plus a number of bolted fillers have been quietly added, mostly to the upper section. Not a huge change of status, but I'd wager it would sport more bolts were it not for the access situation.
Whilst I don't agree with it being retro-bolted it was pretty much a clip-up on pegs before anyway.
Hmm :-\
Am I misremembering again? :-[
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First of all, well done Ianv and Jasper. It takes a big man to call unpopular people names when surrounded by your mates.
Secondly, *would* the world be a better place without egotistical, vigilante, self-appointed, avenging angels, I wonder? Pembroke and Lundy would be full of Gibson’s bolts, that’s for sure.
Thirdly, it didn’t occur to me that KP had placed these bolts. It seemed like the sort of crass thing that gets done by wannabes, not someone of his status, and anyway I supposed that if he thought the route ought to be made into a sport route he’d have done that in 2001, or indeed 1995 (the last two times he put bolts in it). I agree of course that KP deserves respect and before doing anything I will indeed try to talk to him.
I don’t agree with Ianv however that KP isn’t the sort to do this sort of thing without consultation. There’ve been a fair few UKC threads recently with locals coming on and asking about new bolts around Torbay, and I’ve never seen anyone saying they’ve been consulted about them. The UKC thread about this now has a post from a local I know who knows KP pretty well and was there when KP bolted Cocytus, and he doesn’t say he (or anyone else) was consulted; instead he says that ‘you can’t get 100% consensus about these things. Consultation isn’t asking your mates; it’s asking people who might disagree with you.
Nor is it KP’s practice to announce when he does these things; the first time his bolts on Cocytus were chopped it was by someone who’d driven down to do the route and found unannounced bolts in it, and I had the same experience myself in 2002. I'd like to climb without people telling me how I can as well, Matt, but it ain't like that. My son climbs too - I'd like him to be able to climb routes like Cocytus unretroed. It doesn't help much talking about our children.
Fourth, I agree with Stu that when the 2001 bolts were placed they were controversial and they survived largely because their supporters, including Stu (and AFAIK KP didn’t engage in public debate, so it wouldn’t be right to blame him), said that everyone knew Cocytus was a trad route and shouldn’t become a sport route, and so forth. It’s inglorious, to say the least, to retro it fully now having advanced that argument then.
Fifth, Cocytus is not of course as Ianv suggested ‘the one random trad route’ at Ansteys. The Mitre, Blonde Bombshell, Devonshire Cream, Moonshot, Acheron and St Gregory, for example.
As to its status as a trad route, here is a link to a Climber article about Torbay trad.
http://www.climber.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?cate=2&topic=13&item=93 (http://www.climber.co.uk/categories/articleitem.asp?cate=2&topic=13&item=93)
Here is the link to Rockfax’s Devon Top 50 routes (sport and trad).
http://www.rockfax.com/databases/best50.php?area=1024 (http://www.rockfax.com/databases/best50.php?area=1024)
In West Country Climbs it is given three stars.
In Nick White’s guide to Devon it is given two stars (this was when it had the remains of KP’s 1995 bolts in it). There are six E3s given three stars, five of them (all bar the now-banned Feasibility Study) put up by the same first ascentionist as Cocytus. One of those, The Mitre, is on the same crag, also has two old bolts and is no doubt in line to get fully retroed if the present water-testing goes well.
In PRL’s own SouthWest Climbs it is given two stars; on a rough calculation that puts it, in PRL’s opinion, among the top 200 routes in the whole SW.
I don’t think we should be retroing this route for the sake of ten feet of new climbing, a bit of convenience and a new lower-off.
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I don’t think we should be retroing this route for the sake of ten feet of new climbing, a bit of convenience and a new lower-off.
Originally i posted on the ukc thread stating that i was fairly ambivalent, having read that, and stu's posts, I'd probably go and tidy the route up myself. Standard UK sea cliff ethics are currently leaving pegs to go and doing routes with as little fixed stuff as possible on the grounds that it is often a lot more rotten than you think it is. Maybe this is how we should see cocytus, rather than as an extra 6b+ to warm up on. It'd be a great E5, and you wouldn't hurt yourself binning it onto a decent pad + spotter. I am partially being flippant, but perhaps (as jcm and stu say) its worth it to stop folk thinking its ok to start turning the mitre / stoney / chee tor into mediocre sport routes.
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First of all, well done Ianv and Jasper. It takes a big man to call unpopular people names when surrounded by your mates.
Ah go on then I'll bite. Where did I call you names? Oh yeah, I didn't. You could always try using the quote function of the forum to prove me wrong though. It's dead easy to use.
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The ironic thing, it seems to me, is that the character of Empire has been much more significantly affected by its new bolt than the character of Cocytus, which feels more or less exactly the same as it ever did (I first climbed it in 1990 on pegs, then in its two other incarnations). Yet no-one is banging on about the new bolt in Empire!
When I climbed Empire for the first time having waited 20 years to feel fit enough to flash it, the start was a real mental hurdle for me to overcome and added greatly to the character of the route. I am glad I climbed it before its new bolt and was saddened when it was placed but I couldn't justify removing the bolt as that would be a pretty selfish act on my part...I'm sure that if I started a forum thread about it I could find a few likeminded individuals but most people seem to be pretty happy with the new situation, just as they do with Cocytus' current state (a thread on UKC was started about a year ago and there were no serious objections to the retroing of Cocytus as far as I can recall).
I know that Empire was already bolted up when it had its new bolt placed, but to my mind retroing a route is far more contentious when the character of the climbing is significantly altered. I feel you're barking up the wrong tree here! Cocytus has a good wire on the relatively easy start to reach the first peg which was a bolt equivalent on the first ascent, but (as with all pegs) became increasingly untrustworthy over time. Not wanting to criticise one of my climbing heros but placing pegs on sea-cliffs on first ascents and then expecting future generations to risk life and limb in the name of some cock-eyed notion of ethics as they gradually and inevitably corrode is a pretty selfish thing to do (I'm not, for a minute, saying that Pat expects climbers to risk life and limb - I have no idea how he feels about the situation). I'm sure that back in the 70s things seemed pretty different but with our limited reserves of rock and over-populated (to the point of risking access - I'm thinking Torbryan) crags, I think that Ken has been remarkably selfless spending time, effort and funds bolting lines that he has no particular interest in doing himself but that he hopes will give pleasure to others and relieve the pressure on some of the more popular Devon crags.
Please do think carefully about what you intend to do John - I would urge you to talk to Ken before you travel South.
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Tom
I agree with all you say about Empire. I've not been on it but I intend to and I would have preferred it not get the new bolt either. It just happens that Cocytus is the one I feel strongly about.
I agree too that Cocytus probably doesn't feel very different. But if it doesn't feel very different, what was the point of the retroing? That's what I don't get; it just seems like an unnecessary slap in the face for people who are fond of the existing route.
Do we know that PL placed the pegs? I'm pretty sure he didn't place the bolts on The Mitre! I'd think it was at least as likely that he just clipped what was left there from the aid days. Otherwise I can't see what they were using to aid it with.
I've already said I'll talk to Ken if I can, though I'm not sure how into public debate of these things he is.
Jasper: well, you suggested I was prone to talk 'ego-driven nonsense'. Was I wrong to take that personally?!
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The perfect thread to remind people of this
http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2897 (http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2897)
come along if you have an opinion. Retro bolting is bound to come up.
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Damn!
Can't believe I've been drawn into this.
The bolts are not endangering access?
They are surely placed on "clean" rock and not blocking the potential wire placement?
(Yeah, yeah, I'll try to take look over the weekend, but we're kinda busy right now).
I'm NOT arguing for retro bolting here, nor condoning it in this case.
But the "changes the character" argument?
Clip it, don't clip it.
Use the wire, don't use the wire.
These are the choices of each climber.
Do you mean "allows it to be climbed by people who are not macho enough"?
Stu is right and reasoned, he has presented an argument which has real implications for the national scene and if I lay aside my desire to see some easy end sport in the Shire, I can agree with him.
To better illustrate what I mean.
Along way Pre the car jack.
As a young teenager, we drove all night, just to take turns leading "Right Unconquerable".
With hex's, because cams didn't exist.
And Ron Heart told us that was cheating!
My kids will never be able to do that.
And that's a shame.
I wouldn't want to see it bolted.
Even in this SPECIFIC case, even though I personally don't see it as a "thin edge" moment (I think Anstey's is just fine as a sports crag), I can concede Stu the argument. Because he might be right.
So, as I said earlier, take it to the BMC...
Keep the Egos in check.
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First of all, well done Ianv and Jasper. It takes a big man to call unpopular people names when surrounded by your mates
I don't post on UKC so there was nowhere else to say it :shrug:
Anyway, this does seem to me to be some ego driven rabble rousing. How long have the bolts been in? why didn't you do something when they first appeared if you are so incensed? Was it a quiet day at work and you fancied a bit of trolling?
It annoys me when you get people from outside an area feeling that they can impose their supposed superior ethics on the locals. There were a few reasoned responses from locals which you ignored, Ken will have gauged opinion and this is being ignored, Ken (and Nick) made Ansteys what it is today so his/their opinions hold a fair bit of weight as well (and apparently the first ascentist isn't overly bothered either). Who gives you the right to ride roughshod over all this for a bit of internet glory?
The fact that you want to take out some bolts and leave the convenient new lower off just highlights the whole hypocrisy of the situation.
As for Empire, Nick would have bolted it if he had the resources so the state of the gear was a historical accident. It didn't seem that bad in its original state so I cant see how tidying it up is a big deal as it was always intended to be a sport route.
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Do we know that PL placed the pegs?
From Pat's South West Climbs, Cocytus** E2 E. Grindley and P. Littlejohn (2pts) 1968
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First of all, well done Ianv and Jasper. It takes a big man to call unpopular people names when surrounded by your mates.
Ah go on then I'll bite. Where did I call you names? Oh yeah, I didn't. You could always try using the quote function of the forum to prove me wrong though. It's dead easy to use.
Jasper: well, you suggested I was prone to talk 'ego-driven nonsense'. Was I wrong to take that personally?!
You were wrong to describe it as name calling and it was unnecessarily inflammatory
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Before anybody takes any more unilateral action, be it retrobolting, debolting, rebolting, whatever. (I imagine people are giving themselves coronaries on the other channel over this).
There is a bolt policy debate this Thursday for the south west in bristol. If you feel strongly, come along, raise your point. Get a consensus from the faithful. Propose a motion. I know only certain people will turn up. It's widely advertised. I post such regional meetings on here. Those who care will be there.
I know it might be a way for some south west activists. You can email appropriate person with your thoughts to be discussed. Hell, if you're a known UKBer and its a long trek for you but you want a say, I'll put you up for the night.
I don't really have much opinion on this one myself. But there is an avenue to resolve it, or at least get some consensus for your proposed actions
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JCM - in general, what is it about fixed gear in climbing you are against?
More specifically - do you regard hammered fixed gear differently to drilled fixed gear?; if you do regard them differently - does hammered fixed gear have more validity to you than drilled fixed gear? If so, why?
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There is a bolt policy debate this Thursday for the south west in bristol.
I have said this before in the context of the Carn Vellan issue, but I think it is worth someone making the point frequently. Why are Bristol climbers setting policy for the South-West? Certainly not because of proximity. By road, Bristol is closer to Sheffield than West Cornwall. I accept that Bristol is a bit closer to Ansteys but it is still further than, say, Sheffield to Malham! Do Sheffield climbers vote on Malham issues at BMC Peak meetings: I am guessing not.
bristol climbers aren't the only south west climbers aren't setting policy.
I have already offered a place to crash, if anyone cares, but it's a trek.
Maybe, we just give more of a shit?
Come to meet. Tell us bristol folk to fuck off.
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With the greatest respect Matt, what on earth are you talking about? Do you want to dis-invent cams?
My tongue was so far into my cheek I could hardly type!
It was meant as a "things change, get over it" comment.
And a lament about the damage caused by cam removal...
Just come back from Long Quarry point. I'd intended to take a look, give the dog a run and the kids a scramble at sea level etc.
Except the dog decided to fall from the approach path (50 foot, straight in), so we got sidetracked.
Thanks to Dave and his RIB and some impromptu DWS by me, we pulled her out.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8262/8707915712_f5199d6c30.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/oldmanmatt/8707915712/)
Untitled (2013-05-04 14:36:59) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/oldmanmatt/8707915712/#) by oldmanmatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/oldmanmatt/), on Flickr
Which pretty much ended the day.
So I'll try again another day...
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On the off chance...
Does anyone recognise Dave or his RIB?
Fortunate that he was passing and responded to our waving, sounded local and dropped his dive knife in the struggle with a panicked mutt, so I owe him twice!
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8554/8706829013_c897ae6778.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/oldmanmatt/8706829013/)
Untitled (2013-05-04 14:38:19) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/oldmanmatt/8706829013/#) by oldmanmatt (http://www.flickr.com/people/oldmanmatt/), on Flickr
I know.. Off topic.
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There is a bolt policy debate this Thursday for the south west in bristol.
I have said this before in the context of the Carn Vellan issue, but I think it is worth someone making the point frequently. Why are Bristol climbers setting policy for the South-West? Certainly not because of proximity. By road, Bristol is closer to Sheffield than West Cornwall. I accept that Bristol is a bit closer to Ansteys but it is still further than, say, Sheffield to Malham! Do Sheffield climbers vote on Malham issues at BMC Peak meetings: I am guessing not.
Come to meet. Tell us bristol folk to fuck off.
Well it is definitely a long way for me! But if I ever move to South Devon - and having thought hard about it for a long time, I think it is the only place in the UK I can envisage living - lobbying the BMC to set up a proper SW area would seem a good project.
On this point...
I spoke to the BMC wall rep (name escapes me, was less than helpful/interested), recently. I asked if there was a local BMC rep and his response was that "no one down there was that interested". Given their lack of interest, not surprising...
Yes, I realise I should probably do something about it, just too busy right now. If things don't change, we'll look at it again.
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There is a bolt policy debate this Thursday for the south west in bristol.
I have said this before in the context of the Carn Vellan issue, but I think it is worth someone making the point frequently. Why are Bristol climbers setting policy for the South-West?
I mentioned this early in the thread on t'other channel when someone said discuss it at your regular area meeting and come up with a fixed gear policy. In the last 5 years I've seen one area meet advertised in chudleigh and the one in Penwith.
I trekked up to bristol once when they were talking about the Cheddar Gorge project. Beyond that looking at what's up for discussion most times I get the feeling that as far as the BMC is concerned we might as well be the independent republic of Devonistan. £30 in petrol and 3 hours round trip in the car is a long way to go for something that seems hardly relevant to climbing in Devon.
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Let's just set the record straight here.
The last 3 SW area meets alone were:
Wareham (Dorset)
Bovey Tracey (DEVON)
Bristol.
So, whose fault is it if people in devon can't be assed to attend them? Pretty spread through region don't you think? Matt pointed out nobody down there is interested. So don't blame bristol climbers who do turn up for other peoples apathy.
Ps Matt. Good news about dog rescue.
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Oh, and next area meet is in Pendeen.
That's the facts straight then.
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And you can always contact Samantha Mayfield. The BMC Devon representative.
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And you can always contact Samantha Mayfield. The BMC Devon representative.
Is she?
I really did call the office, specifically to find out who the area rep was and was told clearly that there wasn't one.
Also, I had no clue of those meets (it's fair to say that I wasn't paying attention until now, though), although I can tell you when most of the last few NE and NW area meets were. (Thanks Shark).
It's good to see Adge promoting and promulgating on the forum. This thread and his posts have awakened me to how complacent I'd become.
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I find the fixation on local decisions for local climbers hard to understand.
How local do you need to be for your decision to count? Bristol doesn't seem close enough apparently. Is Exeter OK? Where does the boundary lie, or do we apply a sliding scale?
The whole locals thing is meaningless IMO, since non-locals climb at this crag too. I wager I've done more climbing at anstey's than many locals (certainly if you count by number of routes done), but now live miles away. Non-locals have a stake too.
And that is totally ignoring the arguments I've made earlier that these decisions have a non-local impact.
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Actually, re-reading that I realise it's too strong. Obviously, the key point is how much involvement people have with the crag in question. Locals who climb there a lot will obviously have a vested interest and an important perspective.
My point is just that non-locals often have strong connections with the crag, climb there a lot and also have a stake. To dismiss their points of view because they are "non-local" is disrespectful, I think.
!
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Let's just set the record straight here.
The last 3 SW area meets alone were:
Wareham (Dorset)
Bovey Tracey (DEVON)
Bristol.
I was about to hold my hands up and say you got me there. But then I looked on the BMC forum on ukc, which is probably where many will look to see what's going on. Ignoring the Cornwall meets, since they appear to have de facto split off and don't advertise themselves as SW area, we have:
Bristol Apr 13, Oct 12, May 12, Jan 12, Nov 11, Jan 11
Devon Sep 12 (I'll hold my hands up to missing that one), Mar 10
Glos Nov 10
The Dorset meet in Feb 13 is on the BMC site, but wasn't promoted on ukc that I saw.
I looked further back but it was pretty much followed the Bristol-centric trend.
I'll admit to some hyperbole with my 'meet in Devon once every 5 years' but you've got to admit I'm not far off the mark! Anyway, if the SW area meet is going to be ecumenical and travel around the region more from now on then good luck with it and I'll keep more of an eye out for when it comes back this way.
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My point is just that non-locals often have strong connections with the crag, climb there a lot and also have a stake. To dismiss their points of view because they are "non-local" is disrespectful, I think.
No, I agree, but I think it that if said non-local has such an interest then it is fairer to expect them to travel to a meeting held relatively close to said crag than to expect all the local users to trek up close to where the non-local users live. And as Adge said in relation to Devon climbers and the meets in Bristol, you're always welcome to send in your view by proxy...
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My point is just that non-locals often have strong connections with the crag, climb there a lot and also have a stake. To dismiss their points of view because they are "non-local" is disrespectful, I think.
People from outside the area who climb there a lot, contribute to the development etc would have the same say as far as I am concerned, I would regard them as locals. My dig was as people who pop in every now and again and try to lay down the law.
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the south west is a large and diverse climbing area. The area meet system is not necessarily perfect for all issues. But it is currently the only thing in place really.
I would be happy to keep the SW area meets going. Maybe with sub regional, or county meets feeding into them. But this needs organising by activists in the localities.
The perceived bristol-centrist feeling is probably just because bristol climbers are more organised and active?
Go to a meet. Propose a Devon sub regional meet. Organise them. It seems like there isn't even a Devon BMC rep? Put yourself forward. The somerset rep is brilliant, sure he'd help you get started.
On the question of local vs non local input. The area meets are open to everyone. So if you feel a strong connection to any area, anybody can attend and have input, regardless of where they're based.
As i said. It may not be perfect. But it's currently what there is. And it's better to have some way of formulating regional consensus than everyone just doing their own thing. Bolt chop bolt chop bolt chop. Moan on internet.
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My point is just that non-locals often have strong connections with the crag, climb there a lot and also have a stake. To dismiss their points of view because they are "non-local" is disrespectful, I think.
People from outside the area who climb there a lot, contribute to the development etc would have the same say as far as I am concerned, I would regard them as locals. My dig was as people who pop in every now and again and try to lay down the law.
Yes, and Stu, I think we're agreeing with you too.
It's probably because things have been quite here for a while and we've become complacent.
There has been a sudden SW flurry on UKB, so those of us who'd drifted away from (or like me, shunned) UKC, have lost track entirely.
It suddenly seemed like we had no say, as locals; not the only voice!
It was a bit like waking up to discover UKIP had taken control of your local council...
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Bolt chop bolt chop bolt chop. Moan on internet.
I think this last round of bolt, moan on internet & try and incite rabble to chop, discuss, has been really useful. It's dragged a lot of interested views from different parts of the Uk and world into the debate (possibly even a wider selection than to be found in a Bristol pub!) & we can pretty much take away that most think this is where the line should be drawn, Ken knows he was pushing the boundaries and now he knows what the wider community thinks and there's probably a slightly larger voice for taking out the 1st bolt on cocytus than keeping it (though both are overwhelmed by the 'we don't mind either way').
One good point for discussion would be whether the policy for Torbay in general should be to replace rotting pegs with bolts or adopt the north coast 'let it rot' or a mix and match depending on the cliff (Berry head, Sanctuary Wall in particular, no-one wants a general spreading of bolts onto them, but what to do about routes that do pretty much depend on rotting pieces of ironmongery?)
And as for the BMC, they can take away either that we feel underrepresented and we need a kick and maybe a helping hand to get off our arses and sort ourselves out, or that we are parochial luddites that couldn't give two hoots what them 'furriners' think of us and want to be left alone to manage our own affairs. ;) or as some bloke from Edinburgh implied on ukc 'pervert our ethics'.
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To put it in context, North Wales has one BMC area meeting which travels around between West and East and sometimes even the badlands of mid-Wales. Similar population centres in N.Wales to in the South West. Holding a North Wales BMC area meet in Chester would be very odd.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JUfo39SmlIs/UYZDYjML4pI/AAAAAAAAAqw/6-f7-uk-Pjk/s720/counties.jpg)
Cornwall, Devon, Dorset and Somerset looks like a logical 'area', if you're going to define climbing by local area.
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If you superimpose Penwith over the Lleyn it's more like holding your North Wales meet in Leeds, or possibly York...
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The definition of a local as "anyone who can be arsed to turn up at the meeting" isn`t totally ideal, but it has worked reasonably well with the last couple of Penwith bolt debates and votes. Anyone who felt strongly about the issues could have turned up from wherever and contributed and voted. Doing an internet poll, for instance, would be less ideal IMO as it requires no real commitment.
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I climbed at Ansteys for the first time last week, mega venue, brilliant stuff. :clap2:
I climbed Cocytus in it's present state including finishing at the first belay and the new direct finish going straight up. All very enjoyable and cool to be climbing a technical corner/groove instead of the usual walls. The new finish did seem quite logical now it's a sport route and a good contrast to the technicalities below.
However, to me it though it felt like a two star sport route at most, maybe even just the one star. Why am I stating this? Well I can see that it very probably made a better quality trad route even with the two bolts in. Yes placing the wires might have been piss when you knew the route but I bet the first time you onsighted it the nerves of the run out together with selecting the right wire and seating it, getting the draw on then clipping that while precariously balanced in that bridged position slightly run out gave the route a bigger feel than heading up to the bolts and quickly clipping the draw.
So:
Does it make a better sport route than a trad route (even with the two bolts)? I understand many say it makes no difference but are they the folk who have climbed it many times already? See my next point:
I can't help but think that 'locals' who have climbed pseudo trad routes like this many times, often as a warm up for other (sport) routes on their local crag often seem to forget what it felt like to lead that particular route onsight for the first time, and so on their tenth time up the route with the correct wires already on their quickdraws, their placement a mere formality, the route's secrets and intricacies long gone, they think; "hmmm, what's the point in just having a couple of wires and the two bolts, may as well bolt it up, make a nice sport route, probably be more popular, my kids could have a go..blah blah blah.."
Now don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting that locals at any venue especially this one are disrespectful or ount but I do think it can be easy to get a little flippant about psuedo trad routes that you've climbed many times and I see this in our area up in N. Wales too, funnily enough often by the locals who have been around the longest. Maybe they can't be bothered taking the trad gear down to the crag and placing the all too familiar wires anymore. Again I repeat I mean no disrespect, really I don't.
As Stu pointed out, the original bolts went in on the premise that it would stay trad and now it's a nice 6b+, a trend that I see creeping in in other areas and a trend often excused by the 'popularity' of a climb now it's bolted or 'what's the point in just having a few wires, everyone knows what they are and they're placement a formality, and the other routes are mainly sport so...'
I am not local and genuinely think that although I have an opinion, that is all it is, I don't think I have a particular say on this as such and I can understand why local climbers and those who have a deep interest or association with the crag would get pissed off with folk who aren't or don't telling them what they should do to a particular route like this.
It's so hard to avoid the thin end of the wedge argument, but really how long do expect the other 'trad routes to stay that way b efore Ansteys becomes a full sport venue? Five, Ten years? I climbed Mitre, great route, really airy, not sure it needs all it's bolts but it still works, and I'm looking forward to going back for Devonshire Cream, what a line!
Just to be the classic hypocrite I thought Empire of the Sun was fucking amazing, perfectly bolted and it's new first bolt to be quite appropriate. I also thought the Might and the Main to be brilliant and nicely bolted, love the sling placement at the start.
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Does anybody know if the cocytus Ansteys bolt controversy was discussed at the regional BMC meet last week?