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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Fiend on January 03, 2024, 05:51:04 pm
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Hi folks. Probably been asked before but what are folks thoughts about making genuine strength losses in your 40s?
I've noticed an accelerated decline in my strength over the last year - worryingly more than I'd expect.
Obviously I expect a general, if steadier, decline due to age. I've noticed myself being more susceptible to injury, more stiff and creaky overall, and a bit more tired in general - this has been at a fairly steady rate for several years and feels in line with that I might expect.
Obviously any climbing strength declines are going to be considerably excerbated by being BMI 26.5 (no, that's not lean, honed, LiamHutch98-style climbing relevant muscle, it's a DVT-hampered weightbelt around my waist), and also by relentless climbing-related injuries. I would except climbing strength losses to be fairly large or hard to measure (I did have some indication of those testing on the Depot 30' Board: In March I had a session that was equivalent to TWO of my best 2022 sessions added together, whilst in June / July I had a few sessions where I was having to work my previous casual middle warm-ups and was the worst I've ever been on it).
What is interesting / concerning is that in my weight-independent tests, of, well, weights, I've noticed a larger and seemingly irreversible decline. Every gym session since spring has been weak, sometimes with added weak, occasionally with a garnish of weak on top.
Examples:
Deadlift: 140kg max, down from 160kg max. 120kg now feels like 140kg used to.
Bench press: 70kg max, down from 80kg max. 60kg now feels like 70kg used to.
OH press: 40kg max, down from 50kg. 30kg now feels like 40kg used to.
Lat pulldowns: hard to tell due to injuries but I guess about: Comfy on 80kg max, down from 100kg max.
Bicep curls: hard to tell due to injuries but definitely weaker.
I was doing okay at the gym earlier in the year, especially bench (was comfy on 80kg max, also squeezed out a 160kg DL but it felt well risky). I know full well since then that I've had shoulder issues BUT they've started feeling better in recent months, and I've noticed that my left, UN-IMPINGED shoulder is feeling the weaker, especially on overhead press. AFAIK I've done nothing to inhibit lifts otherwise. Other than that - digestion is okay, am sleeping okay, eating okay, a bit of stretching and self-care means my body is feeling okay overall apart from TE and crunchy shoulder.
I also know full well that I haven't been going to the gym as regularly, but have generally kept active and conditioned with climbing / exploring / cleaning, and...
My previous experience is: If I go to the gym sporadically, but maintain a good level of activity with climbing days out, indoor walls, and other stuff, I can get back into gym lifts pretty quickly - I don't progress nor get near PBs without more regularity, but I regain previous norms well with just a bit more regularity.
My current experience is: That ain't happening.
I have wondered if I'd picked up some low-level virus at 3 night's raving at Bangface weekender in May, because I generally felt like there was a more notable decline since then. In fact in early summer I felt I had so little power and general muscle contraction (despite not feeling fatigued nor low on energy), I actually got some blood tests done, with no obvious deficiencies spotted. It feels like much the same now I'm back at the gym regularly - contraction just ain't happening.
Any ideas?? Apart from the "you're just getting old, accept it" - please re-read the 3rd line that yes I obviously know, and yes this is something different to the general decline I feel. Ta.
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From reading on here I know you have also had a tough time with your mental health too. I suspect that also affects your strength. Quite literally not just in a motivation sense. Definitely will also contribute to feeling run down and tired. Be kind to yourself Fiend.
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I’m 46. I have noticed accelerating declines over the last couple of years, however it’s very hard to separate aging from lifestyle - my wife broke her ankle then I buggered my elbow. Common sense would suggest strength vs age probably plots with a curve peaking in your thirties, the change in angle over the top barely perceptible but the slopes either side more so. Genetics and lifestyle no doubt play big parts in how steep the decline is, but I suspect it’s only going to get harder. On the plus side stamina seems to peak later and decline slower (I have done no reading on this but that’s my general impression).
PS I can’t imagine going on a three day bender, I’d be fucked for months. Some years back I was so fucked after a stag do I tried to get tested for Lyme (I’d had multiple tick bites that summer).
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+1 for what Jamie said.
I know that in the past ( you know, when I was your age) I also went through the mill regarding my mental and emotional health flipping my prowess up and down.
For me personally, if I'm not consistent with my training ( ie most of the time) it's only when I'm mentally and emotionally up can I apply any force to any thing.
Be gentle with yourself, and if you can stomach that gym thing ( you know I struggle with all that) then aim for turning up consistently. I have an inkling turning up is the key. You can adapt your session from there
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I climbed my hardest route at 46. It’s not age that’s making you weak, it’s Trad.
Knock the ledge-shuffling on the head and you’ll be fine.
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For the physical side of things, you could do a lot worse than listen to this podcast with Matt 'tory boy' Roberts about the ageing male and performance.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p077b4mj
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I’m well past 40 year old decline but my experience with ageing is that you can no longer drop something for a month or two and expect to get to your old PB ‘s in a session or two. If I stop doing weights for 3 months but continue climbing. It will take me 3 months of regular weights to get back to where I was and it has to be regular not just once a week.
I can get climbing and cycling strength back much quicker and don’t seem to lose as much with a lay off.
Also what the others have said.
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From reading on here I know you have also had a tough time with your mental health too. I suspect that also affects your strength. Quite literally not just in a motivation sense. Definitely will also contribute to feeling run down and tired. Be kind to yourself Fiend.
Excellent post. The body is definitely not immune from the mind.
Whilst age does slow us all down, I don’t think your woes are a necessary consequence of your age Fiend. They weren’t for me at your age and I don’t believe they are for you either. As Webbo says, I do believe the ability to quickly pick up where you left off fades in middle age, so you have to work in a much more patient and sustained way to regain previous performance levels. Like JB says, I also feel fatigue more deeply and for longer than I used to, it’s something I just have to ignore patiently work around now.
Might you’d be better off choosing the areas where you want to excel and not stressing so much about the others? Does bench matter much if your goal is to keep your head together on some gnarly sea cliff route? Maybe some consequence-free limestone sport ticks would be good to get a bit of a momentum without too much head stress?
Don’t get too despondent; you can definitely get stronger and perform better in the future than you have in the past. It’ll just take more patience to build up to things than it used to.
Edit- one thought: everything you do contributes to an overall load on the CNS. Whereas a 25 year old might have the recovery to push hard on a range of fronts and bounce back from each one, a 45 year old might need to be more selective?
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At 34, I'm clearly not qualified to answer, but I think I would lose gym strength doing the amount of low intensity exercise/activity you do.
From my reading of sport science, high volume low intensity seems to produce more injuries than the opposite too.
Why not try something different? Drop your volume in half for a month or two, cutting out all or most of the low intensity stuff and see how you get on. I think you've mentioned you do well on high volume, but maybe that has changed. I really like the day on day off routine and can do that continually without needing to deload (even with the odd 2 days on here and there). However, if I go for the full 2 days on 1 off routine, I can only sustain that for so long before excess fatigue accumulates and I need to deload.
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I'm 48 and think Liam is spot on. Not that I had much in the first place but I've not seen a loss of strength pretty much doing what Liam is suggesting. It definitely takes longer to recover these days though especially after an outside session. If I did the kind of volume you seem to do pretty sure I'd be broken most of the time!
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Thanks for the replies.
Jamie G: Good point and I was going to mention that as it was something I considered, and I'm aware there can be a correlation. I personally don't feel my correlation is strong enough: Firstly I got to my strongest with lifting around 2018 when I had some increased depression (from post-norovirus nausea bouts). Secondly my mental health is marginally better and more stable than it was last autumn / winter, even if the strength is lower. Thirdly, it seems to be a very physiological thing - I don't feel I like motivation or commitment or effort at the gym (and definitely not at the wall). I feel good to try hard, and then the muscles just don't do as much as they could/should/have. Not ruling it out but I'm not sure TBH.
Other things I forgot to mention: I generally feel slightly achier than usual, in non-injury areas. I'm wondering if I might have a bit more inflammation than usual (no changes that could cause that tho).
HoseyB: Cheers and as mentioned I am going to try to get a bit more of gym stuff done.
Johnny Brown: Ahhh, it wasn't a bender. The most substances I took were I think 2 small bottles of Pepsi Max for the caffeine! Late nights and lots of raving but also lots of sleep and rest. I did feel pretty tired for the next week tho. It's possibly the only event that has any vague correlation but then again the systems seem different: sleep/energy deprivation vs. short bursts of pure strength / power remaining affected months later.
The other aspects to mentioned are interesting - maybe the decline is a bell curve and it will start slowly and suddenly taper off abruptly. Disappointing if true. And if fitness / stamina (hardly my specialist subject) lags behind that, then maybe that's still in the shallow gradient of the bell curve, hence declining at a more expected rate.
PeteJH: Cheers, will check that.
Webbo: That's another interesting aspect to factor in - the rate of rebound also declining. So that could be a double whammy that might explain it - strength declining, but compounded by the speed of getting back some previous form when getting back into a strength activity also declining. So the first decline might not be as bad as it seems but initially it's going to be exacerbated by the second.
MrJR: Also some interesting points as I'd expect. Okay, I've remember the other thing I forgot to mention in my initial post - why care less about weights performance?? Well.... It's a good compliment to my climbing (supportive and balancing out exercises), it's good for my physical health (due to CV being mostly off the cards), good for my mental health, good to work around whatever the current injuries are. And the last time I had a really solid confident season trad climbing was in the midst of my most productive / strongest time of regular gym going in Glasgow in 2018. As for CNS and fatigue, I am trying to factor in more deliberate rest days, and keeping up with the physical, errr, self-care too.
Liamhutch89: Well, the volume works for me (including less injures / healing injuries) in terms of climbing volume - based on previous experience, recent experience, and TheKettle's advice (I tend to break if I try high intensity). For gym volume or climbing training volume (the latter not really happening at the moment), I have it the other way around - low volume high intensity (taking care ofc). It might be possible that fatigue from the former is affecting the latter - that would be a relatively new effect for me, but I can see the logic of it.
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I don’t know whether I’ve understood correctly your reply to Liam where you say high volume is good for you but high intensity breaks you. However it sounds like you are trying to high intensity weights amongst your high volume.
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I’m 53 and have always been strong.
Whilst my climbing has gone to shit, due mainly to arthritis making climbing shoes a torture fest, knackered shoulder/rotator cuff making life hell and an old spinal injury making my left leg cramp up unexpectedly at inconvenient moments…
Generally I’m hitting PBs at the gym in weights and Callisthenics /gymnastics.
I have completely changed up my training regime.
While I owned the climbing wall, I was training almost every day, switching up which bit I was working on a strict rota and getting steadily weaker and more dispirited. Bear in mind I was supposed to be a coach/trainer.
So I sold the wall and went back into the military. Within six months, of military style PT, I was back on form.
At 51 years old, I came second in a strength/fitness challenge/competition amongst the lads of 42 Commando, winning the Callisthenics but coming second in the 300 mtr ocean swim to a 27 year old Sgt.
Because I dropped down to a maximum of 3 sessions per week, never more than an hour long, mostly strength. I only go to the wall once a week now and I only climb problems and fingerboard at home a couple of times a week.
I also switched to pure strength with the weights, so 3 reps at 85% 1RM, one set of each exercise per session.
It’s working for me. 🤷♂️
Edit
Recovery sucks. I could keep up with with the lads, but I was useless for two or three days after. They were able to keep going day after day. I’m a civvi again now, but have kept the 3 times a week routine and it’s holding up.
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What you’re describing Matt sounds very much like the routine the PT in the link I posted recommends for maintaining T levels.
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What you’re describing Matt sounds very much like the routine the PT in the link I posted recommends for maintaining T levels.
Yup.
I thought so too.
I find it odd that I don’t seem to need to train endurance so much, unless I have a specific target. I seem to plod along happily and pay the next day if I push it.
I stopped the load bearing races a couple of years ago, but can still run a quick 6k over the moors with 25kg on my back in a reasonable time despite only going out 2-3 times a year instead of the weekly 15k I was doing two years ago.
I filmed myself training on the Flight Deck at the 6 month point, just out of amazement at my recovery. I believe trying on a moving surface helped, by the way. https://www.instagram.com/p/CfyaZgYjOB9/?igsh=aHNzNmNpZ3dvMjJw (https://www.instagram.com/p/CfyaZgYjOB9/?igsh=aHNzNmNpZ3dvMjJw)
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Have you considered HRT? Honest question.
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One of the US podcasters did a recent interview with Eric Horst, I think, I'll see if i can find it.
My strength had been up and down like a yoyo since my 40s (nearly 55 now!) as I dip in and out of other activities, I guess there has been a decline, but pre children my climbing focus had been mostly ledge shuffling with a bit of bouldering thrown in, and i had never done any weight training. Now I try and do some at least 4 times a week Not monster sessions, just half hour targeted exercises in front of the telly with the kids. Also stops me falling asleep!
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Inspiring OMM!
For anyone whose ability to recover from training has passed its peak (probably everyone in this thread, myself included), think smarter, not harder. Managing fatigue is critical.
A new study has shown that training well short of failure (as little as RPE 4-6) is better for strength gains than training either to failure or close to failure. The study appears well designed, was on trained men and the researchers are also respected powerlifting coaches. Volume has to be matched e.g. if you can do 3 sets of 8 reps with a weight to failure, instead you would do 6 sets of 4 with the same weight. You're doing the same volume, but there's less fatigue (CNS gets fried going close to failure), and your total power output is higher because the reps will be performed quicker - grinding out a rep is not powerful and this is probably the main reason for lower RPE training being superior for strength gain.
Important caveats:
1. this is for strength gains only. To optimise hypertrophy, it appears that reps should be taken closer to hypertrophy (as climbers we can probably live without maximising hypertrophy).
2. strength expression (e.g. the ability to perform a 1 rep max) is a skill that needs to be practiced. This means that if you want a new PB, then you will need to start getting closer to failure and grinding out reps to train that skill. Progress can still be tracked at lower RPE: if you can lift X amount today for Y reps and in a month it takes less effort, you got stronger. If you manage an extra rep or more weight at the same level of effort, you also got stronger...
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/375592977_The_Effect_of_Resistance_Training_Proximity_to_Failure_on_Muscular_Adaptations_and_Longitudinal_Fatigue_in_Trained_Men
Older studies have shown similar outcomes. My ego occasionally still commands me to power scream through that last rep, but I have to remind myself that by doing this I'm leaving potential gains on the table...
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Also @matt incredibly impressive and athletic. Didn't you bench 170 a couple of years back too? V athletic.
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One of the US podcasters did a recent interview with Eric Horst, I think, I'll see if i can find it.
https://music.amazon.co.uk/podcasts/d8bf3b28-a566-49c9-9744-71aa4fc0885f/episodes/4f0d31c4-3d31-4d92-b06e-7446ec0eb895/the-nugget-climbing-podcast-ep-176-eric-h%C3%B6rst-returns-%E2%80%94-top-7-most-common-training-mistakes
I think it was this one
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I read this thread with great interest (thanks everyone), it is all very mysterious to me. I'll have a listen to Pete's podcast link (though I'm not sure how splendid a physical training goal David Cameron provides :) )
I'm in my mid 50s. Over the past couple of decades, I've had periods when I've been feeble and periods when I've been stronger. For me it seems to come and go both on a month to month basis and longer, year by year scale too. Certainly not exercising enough makes me weaker but I sense that my body sometimes responds far more positively to exercise.
Is the basis of strength understood? If say an 8C climber has an accident and their arm is in a cast, the muscles etc will waste away. But they will then astonishingly easily recover once they can start training/climbing again. An identical twin of theirs who hadn't trained up, would have to make huge efforts to get to the level of strength that was so easily recovered.
This was really brought home to me twenty years ago after I had had chemo for lymphoma. I was super delighted to have recovered and psyched to get climbing again. I felt well in myself, my hair was growing back etc. My first attempt was at the Matrix bouldering room. I had to summon all my technique and guile and flat out flailing dynamic coordination to get up two (generously graded) font 3s (the easiest problems designed for novices in trainers). I have never had head-to-toe DOMS and stiffness like I did after that session. But then, what flabbergasted me, was that simply by turning up and having a go a few times a week, I was able to get back to re-doing Sardine at the Tor within a month. Zippy told me that was what he expected. Many years before, Zippy had been on holiday with Ben Moon after Ben had a broken arm. Apparently, Ben had gone from full atrophy to 8b+ over the course of the holiday at a time when 8b+ was cutting edge. I was just doing a punter version of that.
My point is that, whilst obviously strength requires muscles and connective tissues etc, that isn't really what it's about. It's about the neural signals that direct the engagement that induce those to be deployed and stimulated to build/recover. How the hell that memory of how strong we have trained to become gets set (and why and what we can do to hack it) is what seems baffling to me. Perhaps this is all very well understood by everyone else and I'm just ignorant though.
I think, I've sometimes got crapper by feeling despondent about not being able to repeat party-piece boulder problems and then having duff sessions ineffectual trying. The way to break out has been to get on something else where I have the excuse of unfamiliarity and so don't beat myself up. My guess is that if I had a better attitude, I could get the training gain from the party piece, but mind tricks are what it's all about.
I'm unfamiliar with weight lifting but by analogy with my personal experience of trying to regain bouldering benchmark capability, perhaps Fiend, try different styles of lifts. Perhaps you having a benchmark of what you think you ought to be able to do is what is taking the fun out and that is sabotaging those mysterious neural strength settings. Perhaps try working up to a personal best in turkish get ups (with a barbell tike in a Victorian circus) or Olympic style lifts or whatever. You would have no expectations to beat yourself up over. Having had a spell away from deadlifts etc would also then give you an excuse when you got back to those. You would make some gains re-familiarising yourself to those and the try-hard momentum from that could spring you on.
My siege on Caviar heavily relied on me deploying such (mind?) tricks and languished before I did.
I totally appreciate that other people on here are far more knowledgable about all of this than me. I'm laying out my (mis?)-conceptions to be debunked as a learning process as much as anything.
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Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.
OMM :strongbench: Inspiring stuff! Do you train on the rings regularly?
Fiend, I think the big change as we grow older is the need to plan and balance work vs recovery. I suspect your answers lie in the relationship between intensity, volume and rest. I can’t imagine days cleaning Lancashire quarries are great for recovery, for example.
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I don’t know whether I’ve understood correctly your reply to Liam where you say high volume is good for you but high intensity breaks you. However it sounds like you are trying to high intensity weights amongst your high volume.
High volume of moderately challenging climbing = fine, seems to help with injury and overall capacity too.
High intensity of bouldering / training = I break every time I try it.
High volume of moderately challenging weights = never tried due to hypertrophy risk
High intensity of weights = only had one very minor injury ever and that was due to DLing after running to gym.
OMM, LH89: Interesting. There does seem to be a trend here that the issue is a combination of: strength decline PLUS decline in rebounding into pushing strength PLUS decline in ability to recover enough when, say, high volume of climbing (which feels fine on it's own) is in the mix. If that's the main issue then it's going to be bloody tricky to get the balance right given I need to keep constantly active for my physical and mental health :ninja:
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Stone - from my understanding, I think most of what you've said about strength is fairly accurate. It's the same with flexibility. Allegedly even the stiffest people can be put into the full spits whilst under general anesthesia; the only thing preventing us from doing it while awake is our brain putting on the breaks due to decades of reinforcing a limited range of motion! When we try to improve our flexibility, it's not really the tissues we're trying to stretch, but teaching ourselves that it's safe to go further by building strength at the end of the range. For this reason, passive stretching is usually ineffective for adults.
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Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.
OMM :strongbench: Inspiring stuff! Do you train on the rings regularly?
Fiend, I think the big change as we grow older is the need to plan and balance work vs recovery. I suspect your answers lie in the relationship between intensity, volume and rest. I can’t imagine days cleaning Lancashire quarries are great for recovery, for example.
2-3 times a week.
I know it’s unusual and I’m “lucky”, in that I live alone in my apartment for the 8 months of the year I’m in Dubai (plays merry hell with my mental health, to be honest. Alone=lonely), so I set up my living room and there’s a small weights gym and a 20m pool in my building. The rig staring at me, shames me into getting off my arse, even when I’m pretty knackered from work.
(https://i.ibb.co/j8YYgLJ/IMG-0093.jpg)
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Obviously this is aimed at males ( ie Fiend) but it made me think of where my missus is at. She used to run loads and climb little. All fine. Then coming up to perimenapause running stopped being useful, any weight management she found from running in her 30s ceased. She did some research, cut the running to a minimum and switched to strength based activity, primarily bouldering, but also weights. It really worked well for her, and I can see I'm going to keep up my game or she'll overtake me :lol:
The link between hormones and strength training seems well established ( if little broadcast) for women, I'm sure it must be similar in men
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I haven't read all this but from a skim I think the gist is that you do lots of lower intensity exercise and have noticed a decline from PB strength? This doesn't seem surprising if the way to gain and maintain strength is by doing less volume at higher intensity.
If you're using a high volume of low intensity exercise to try and maintain your mental health, is that not mutually exclusive from doing exercise that would gain/maintain strength? Maybe you can't both have your cake and eat it?
This would raise a question - and I'm not making any suggestions here because I have no idea what you've tried to date and whether what might work for me might also work for you - whether there is another way of managing your mental health than by doing lots of low intensity exercise. I presume you've spoken to a GP, sought counselling, use SSRIs, and I presume you've also tried to engage in some routine activity that isn't climbing-related and which gets you out of the house and interacting with others. This needn't be paid employment, it could be voluntary work (not guidebook work which is often done alone and isn't routine).
Please don't feel the need to list exactly what you've tried that isn't low intensity climbing. This isn't an interrogation of your private medical history, nor do I doubt that you have tried lots of alternative therapies, I'm just thinking aloud. If low intensity exercise was the best and only way to manage my mental health then (personally) I'd accept the strength decline as a battle which needs to be lost in order to win the war.
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@OMM no chance of staring out of the window and trying to forget about training with that set up :lol:
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I filmed myself training on the Flight Deck at the 6 month point, just out of amazement at my recovery. I believe trying on a moving surface helped, by the way. https://www.instagram.com/p/CfyaZgYjOB9/?igsh=aHNzNmNpZ3dvMjJw (https://www.instagram.com/p/CfyaZgYjOB9/?igsh=aHNzNmNpZ3dvMjJw)
:strongbench:
Is that one of the RFA 'Forts' or 'Waves'? I nosed around in the guts of all of the Forts and the Waves over the last ten or so years, planning/pricing access jobs when they're in for maintenance. Mostly cleaning fuel tanks or engine vents :sick:
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I filmed myself training on the Flight Deck at the 6 month point, just out of amazement at my recovery. I believe trying on a moving surface helped, by the way. https://www.instagram.com/p/CfyaZgYjOB9/?igsh=aHNzNmNpZ3dvMjJw (https://www.instagram.com/p/CfyaZgYjOB9/?igsh=aHNzNmNpZ3dvMjJw)
:strongbench:
Is that one of the RFA 'Forts' or 'Waves'? I nosed around in the guts of all of the Forts and the Waves over the last ten or so years, planning/pricing access jobs when they're in for maintenance. Mostly cleaning fuel tanks or engine vents :sick:
Bay Class landing ship. Transiting to Indian Ocean to the Gulf.
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Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.
I did, out of curiosity. Not sure I'd recommend it. The programme (and general tone) in his book seems aimed towards a stereotype of a 50-something overweight senior manager in banking, who's never been particularly interested in physical challenge. I read it with a sense of 'these are not my people'. However the fundamentals seem pretty legit and I think are worth trying to adopt. I'm particularly interested in the claims about the relationship between fasting, heavy weights, intensity and hormones - I alluded to this in the thread about knee injuries on here a while back (also started by Fiend...). I've read various of the studies linked in Robert's book. It doesn't appear super-convincing that they show strong evidence for what the claims, not that I'm any expert, and imo his language makes the science sound a lot more settled than it is. But there does appear to be something there. Have also read studies that contradict his claims. The problem with most of the studies is small scale, and they're never quite testing for MY specific circumstances! Trying by doing.. do what feels good nd seems to work, beware of harmful side effects. Seems the best way.
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I haven't read all this
obviously ;D
but from a skim I think the gist is that you do lots of lower intensity exercise and have noticed a decline from PB strength? This doesn't seem surprising if the way to gain and maintain strength is by doing less volume at higher intensity.
Not quite. In the past I've taken time off PB strength, but as long as I've done lots of lower intensity exercise to keep my body moving, I've got back into PB strength quite quickly with a return to some regularity (unlike if I take time off LOLIE too in which case I grind to a halt and it takes ages for me to get anything back). As per...
My previous experience is: If I go to the gym sporadically, but maintain a good level of activity with climbing days out, indoor walls, and other stuff, I can get back into gym lifts pretty quickly - I don't progress nor get near PBs without more regularity, but I regain previous norms well with just a bit more regularity.
My current experience is: That ain't happening.
But...
If you're using a high volume of low intensity exercise to try and maintain your mental health, is that not mutually exclusive from doing exercise that would gain/maintain strength? Maybe you can't both have your cake and eat it?
If low intensity exercise was the best and only way to manage my mental health then (personally) I'd accept the strength decline as a battle which needs to be lost in order to win the war.
This might be the nub of the issue. I think the HVLI is essential for my physical health too given my issues, based on previous experiences. But I think there's a good point there, if, as per the consensus of this thread, it's a 3 way strength decline + rebound decline + quick recovery decline (3 times quicker than I expected from just the strength decline - ofc assuming there's no post-Bangface post-viral issues I've missed), then maybe I've got to pick what I want to do best in. Do I want to claw back a 160kg DL at the expense of Depot Red circuits, or do I want to keep fairly fluid on Depot Red circuits, knowing that doesn't allow me enough recovery time to get DL strength back?? :devangel:
P.S. MrJR : One thing I will be sacrificing and cutting out is high volume high intensity high regularity Lancs cleaning, yes. There was a clear cut issue with fatigue from that over summer and I have learnt from that mistake.
P.S. Thanks to everyone treating this question respectfully and giving me useful answers here and on messages. I'm getting a bit more of an idea what could be going on.
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I mean, what do you need this strength for anyway? Bouldering? Bouldering is fucking bullshit. Routes? You don't need to be that strong to do the crux of most routes in your future oeuvre (stuff like Metal Guru can get straight in the bin).
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Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.
I did, out of curiosity. Not sure I'd recommend it. The programme (and general tone) in his book seems aimed towards a stereotype of a 50-something overweight senior manager in banking, who's never been particularly interested in physical challenge. I read it with a sense of 'these are not my people'. However the fundamentals seem pretty legit and I think are worth trying to adopt. I'm particularly interested in the claims about the relationship between fasting, heavy weights, intensity and hormones - I alluded to this in the thread about knee injuries on here a while back (also started by Fiend...). I've read various of the studies linked in Robert's book. It doesn't appear super-convincing that they show strong evidence for what the claims, not that I'm any expert, and imo his language makes the science sound a lot more settled than it is. But there does appear to be something there. Have also read studies that contradict his claims. The problem with most of the studies is small scale, and they're never quite testing for MY specific circumstances! Trying by doing.. do what feels good nd seems to work, beware of harmful side effects. Seems the best way.
Yes, that sounds sensible. I recall the knee thread. Might try a one day a week short sharp weights session after fasting and see how that goes. It put me in mind of Jerry describing how he’d eat nothing till midday then get on his garage board to try projects. I wonder if that had a similar effect.
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OMM, by callisthenics do you mean the ring/ bar stuff illustrated, or something else? I’ve been trying to evolve my yoga routine into something more flowy and targeting strength and mobility.
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OMM, by callisthenics do you mean the ring/ bar stuff illustrated, or something else? I’ve been trying to evolve my yoga routine into something more flowy and targeting strength and mobility.
Rings and bar at the moment. I’m looking at more floor based exercise over the next three months, but not settled on a plan yet. I am now beginning to have mobility/flexibility issues, probably due to driving a desk too much. Oh, I live on the 14th floor and have started walking up at the end of the day. Well, most days.
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I don't have anything useful to add, but anecdotically and subjectively I did not loose strength in my mid 40s. I lost strength-speed, as fully expected, but age related strenght loss did not happen. n = n+1
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Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.
I did, out of curiosity. Not sure I'd recommend it. The programme (and general tone) in his book seems aimed towards a stereotype of a 50-something overweight senior manager in banking, who's never been particularly interested in physical challenge. I read it with a sense of 'these are not my people'. However the fundamentals seem pretty legit and I think are worth trying to adopt. I'm particularly interested in the claims about the relationship between fasting, heavy weights, intensity and hormones - I alluded to this in the thread about knee injuries on here a while back (also started by Fiend...). I've read various of the studies linked in Robert's book. It doesn't appear super-convincing that they show strong evidence for what the claims, not that I'm any expert, and imo his language makes the science sound a lot more settled than it is. But there does appear to be something there. Have also read studies that contradict his claims. The problem with most of the studies is small scale, and they're never quite testing for MY specific circumstances! Trying by doing.. do what feels good nd seems to work, beware of harmful side effects. Seems the best way.
Yes, that sounds sensible. I recall the knee thread. Might try a one day a week short sharp weights session after fasting and see how that goes. It put me in mind of Jerry describing how he’d eat nothing till midday then get on his garage board to try projects. I wonder if that had a similar effect.
I'd be interested in the outcomes of this - maybe worth a thread split? I'm now 40.75years old, so just scraping into the bottom end of the category and actually strength is ok just now (don't want to hijack this thread), but weight has crept up a bit and I basically seem to tank my metabolism if I don't eat enough (appetite drops, but I also get cranky, sleep badly, lose motivation).It seems like my natural bf% settles out at the higher end, probably in the >15% range. I'm looking for ways of being able to lose a few KG, while keeping everything else firing ok. I've been dabbling a little with a kind of high/low int fasting diet. (described as "Lean Gainz" on reddit ::) ) where you aim to eat a little more than maintenance on training days, and a little under on rest days. So far it's not having much effect :lol:
Edited to add - I have noticed, a bit like OMM, that I can still easily punch out massive days - in the dolomites earlier this year we did a 200m 7a, followed by then a 600m 7b+ the following day, and I'd say at the end of the day I was still going pretty strong. However, the next day I was totally destroyed, and didn't really fully recover for about 3-4 weeks after I got home. Whereas, when I was younger I could go out and do a winter day and be totally wrecked at the end, be tired the next day but back to full power the day after. Maybe we just get better a suffering when we get older and can then tap into deep reserves that are less accessible when young, but this really drain us?
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This is what I played around with (still am in theory.. haven't over xmas):
the idea is you have a feeding window of 8hrs, then a 'fast' for 16hrs, followed by workout, followed by a day of 800 calories, then back to normal.
During the '8hr window' I was eating a normal # of calories.
Next day, I did the workout before eating. My workout is at home using kettlebells, weighted pullups, deadlift, weighted press-ups, squat, shoulder press. So alternating muscle groups. I tried to make it heavy'ish (for me) except the squat due to injured knee. 8 reps max and intense - with 0 rest between one compound exercise and another, then rest between sets. Short workout of around 30-40mins. I was just trying to (in theory..) stimulate HGH/testosterone release.
Then breakfast lunch dinner = 800 calories.
I did it once per week for few weeks.
There seems to be no clear answer that I could find on which is theoretically best out of:
8hr 'eating window', 16hr fast, then eat before workout, then normal eating (or limited calories day).
8hr eating window, 16hr fast, then workout before eating, then normal eating (or limited calories day).
Would be interested to hear others' experience.
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As others have effectively said, a lot of this is surely about baselines. I was probably physically strongest in my 40s because I had a steep old school board at home and used it a lot. I climbed much harder through my mid-20s to late-30s but without any meaningful training, just a lot of climbing. I was objectively weak on a lot of measures. So purely anecdotal, but strength gains are certainly possible in your 40s (especially for the previously under-trained). In terms of diet I’d already been vegan 15 years by the time I entered my 40s.
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From my experience and observation, if you are lucky enough to not be encumbered by illness or injury you can maintain your level or even improve right through your 40s, if you remain psyched and keep trying hard. But they are two big ifs and most climbers get effectively knocked out by one or the other. In my (age 50) case I can't push finger strength due to dupuytrens and as a result my fingers have got steadily weaker. I can still climb okay but it's hard to fight decline if you can't train properly and I think (actual) training matters more not less as you get older.
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I saw this interview about this with Martin Keller, who's a 46yo V16 climber https://www.climbing.com/people/martin-keller-interview-2023/ (https://www.climbing.com/people/martin-keller-interview-2023/)
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I mean, what do you need this strength for anyway? Bouldering? Bouldering is fucking bullshit. Routes? You don't need to be that strong to do the crux of most routes in your future oeuvre (stuff like Metal Guru can get straight in the bin).
Listen to the podcast? All the health benefits mentioned from resistance training?
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I saw this interview about this with Martin Keller, who's a 46yo V16 climber https://www.climbing.com/people/martin-keller-interview-2023/ (https://www.climbing.com/people/martin-keller-interview-2023/)
Going up 2 grades from 8B+ to 8C+ while in his 40's is amazing. Also weighing around 80kg! Hero!
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From reading on here I know you have also had a tough time with your mental health too. I suspect that also affects your strength. Quite literally not just in a motivation sense. Definitely will also contribute to feeling run down and tired. Be kind to yourself Fiend.
Yeah, in my experience depression and/or overload will directly affect my strength (and because my mental health stuff fluctuates a lot I can see that pretty clearly).
But then there's also the secondary effect that comes from the depression and overload (and being easily-fatigued, possibly related to CFS in my teens) making it vastly harder to train often enough or consistently enough.
And I've found that trying to force myself to stick to a training plan when I'm feeling totally wrecked tends to end badly, even if I can make myself do it; I start getting "overtraining" type symptoms even if the amount of actual training I'm doing is fairly low.
Basically, I have to count mental stress as part of the overall load on my body, when thinking about what I can do and how much recovery I need.
Add being 49, some injuries, and a massive flare-up of chronic illness stuff that ate the first half of 2023, and it's horribly easy to get into a downwards spiral. From which I am currently trying to extract myself. And I might even be making some progress, fingers crossed.
Things I'm currently trying to figure out: how to get enough consistency to improve, while also having the flexibility to adjust on a day-to-day basis based on how I feel.
I'm also paying attention to how much different forms of exercise "cost" in terms of motivation required for me to actually do them, and how I can reduce that, because it really doesn't matter if something might be "optimal" in training terms if it becomes impossible and gets abandoned as soon as I have a bad brain patch (unless there's some other thing I can do to maintain the gains from it in the meantime, I guess).
Anyway, dunno how much (if any) of that might be relevant for you, Fiend, just dumping it here in case it's of interest.
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Still believe there's gains to be had, but need increasing amounts of effort to get there. Bouldering about where I was 25 years ago, bonus of never having reached potential, 60 this year.
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Basically, I have to count mental stress as part of the overall load on my body, when thinking about what I can do and how much recovery I need.
This ^
I'm also paying attention to how much different forms of exercise "cost" in terms of motivation required for me to actually do them, and how I can reduce that, because it really doesn't matter if something might be "optimal" in training terms if it becomes impossible and gets abandoned as soon as I have a bad brain patch (unless there's some other thing I can do to maintain the gains from it in the meantime, I guess).
Thanks to Stone for his link above, I listened to Martin Keller who discusses this in the Nugget podcast. Very interesting, once you get past the first 5 minutes of marketing waffle.
https://thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/martin-keller
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From my experience and observation, if you are lucky enough to not be encumbered by illness or injury you can maintain your level or even improve right through your 40s, if you remain psyched and keep trying hard. But they are two big ifs and most climbers get effectively knocked out by one or the other. In my (age 50) case I can't push finger strength due to dupuytrens and as a result my fingers have got steadily weaker. I can still climb okay but it's hard to fight decline if you can't train properly and I think (actual) training matters more not less as you get older.
That's me as totally and thoroughly fucked as I'd feared then!! I can't foresee being able to do actual training again without a lobotomy that would get me to tolerate a regime so dryily boring and detatched from any climbing enjoyment that even barrows would go "fuck this I'll just get a stickier kneepad".
P.S. Slabs: your brain dumps are as welcome as always and definitely some things to be aware of in there.
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Interesting threat. Lots of people seem to have experienced something along the same lines.
I’m going to assume you’ve no underlying medical problem. Blood test to screen for obvious stuff like blood sugar etc? Unfortunately going to your GP with this is likely to get as much attention as a middle aged woman saying she is tired. :(
A lot of people reach a similar point in their late 30s / early 40s when their previous reliance on talent plus natural athleticism plus regularly turning up is no longer enough. People reach a tipping point where an accumulation of little changes has a more noticeable effect. Different people respond to this differently: accept a decline, retire completely and take up cycling, look for magic fixes...?
... I think (actual) training matters more not less as you get older.
Emphatically agree. It took me a long time to realise this includes supportive exercises, ie less specific to climbing, as muscles atrophy. Particularly important if you can’t get to rock 2-3 times a week. I’ve applied myself a bit more systematically in the last few years and slowly clawed back some fitness when I finally realised I’m not 30-something any more and that modern walls don’t translate to the outside like 90s Mile End. Got a fingerboard PB in November this year.
I also like the Martin Keller podcasts (ironic, see a couple of paras later). One of a few people I might pay for coaching despite him being a boulderer who likes a siege and not a trad. climber who likes an onsight. Unfortunately, as an economist, he has a good idea of his worth. Something that might resonate with Fiend is that he likes to do his training on the rock: however this involves heavily focusing on bouldering, frequently solo, and seems to involve driving a massive amount.
A lot of people on this thread are saying similar things, firstly, a lot of low/medium intensity activity is fun but will do very little for max. strength and, secondly, max. strength is a lot harder to maintain and slower to come back as you get older for various reasons: hormonal, accumulated injuries, neuroplasticity(?), lifestyle(??). Therefore a strength decline is not a big surprise.
A second theme is the one that Will and slab_happy especially have mentioned. Climbing is incredibly important to you, a huge part of your identity, and a major coping strategy for dealing with MH issues. Climbing related activities allow you to support this identity even when you’re injured, so probably good in the short term for MH but possibly not for maintaining strength. Also possibly not so good if you want to broaden where you find your sense of identity.
Another theme is a hormonal/physiological dysfunction. I’m not the person to ask about this, other than to agree with those upthread who say MH issues and MH medication can both affect physiology and the interaction between MH and physiology is about far more than lack of motivation to exercise. Pete, can you suggest a written alternative to the podcast that doesn't involve giving him money!? I would normally cross the road to avoid David Cameron’s personal trainer but gritted my teeth. Couldn’t get past the first 15 minutes of self-congratulation and celebrity gossip. :sick:
[digression] Also, I like podcasts for entertainment but less so when I need to digest and judge the validity of information. This means reading stuff at my pace, including skimming or rereading according to how familiar I am with the subject and taking notes. A podcast (or video) imposes its pace on you and gives you less chance to reflect. Perhaps why they are beloved of sales people and conspiracy theorists! [/digression].
What choices do you have?
- Continue as you are, choosing this will involve a decline in performance. This wouldn't be the end of the world.
- Choose to do better structured strength training.
- Even with better training, choosing other fun stuff on top of it may have an impact on recovery and hence strength and performance.
- Experimenting with Pete’s ideas. Many people are big fans.
- Consider other, less physical, ways to support your MH and identity. Indirectly this may give you more energy for focused training or just climbing.
- Probably other things I've not thought about
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Basically, I have to count mental stress as part of the overall load on my body, when thinking about what I can do and how much recovery I need.
This ^
I'm also paying attention to how much different forms of exercise "cost" in terms of motivation required for me to actually do them, and how I can reduce that, because it really doesn't matter if something might be "optimal" in training terms if it becomes impossible and gets abandoned as soon as I have a bad brain patch (unless there's some other thing I can do to maintain the gains from it in the meantime, I guess).
Thanks to Stone for his link above, I listened to Martin Keller who discusses this in the Nugget podcast. Very interesting, once you get past the first 5 minutes of marketing waffle.
https://thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/martin-keller
Oh, interesting, I'll have to check that out.
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@ slab_happy
I should add he discusses the relationship between physiology / arousal and how to stay motivated to train so not exactly the same thing, but I find listening to his ideas interesting enough.
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Pete, can you suggest a written alternative to the podcast that doesn't involve giving him money!? I would normally cross the road to avoid David Cameron’s personal trainer but gritted my teeth. Couldn’t get past the first 15 minutes of self-congratulation and celebrity gossip. :sick:
Just use fast forward. It’s a great thing about podcasts - you don’t have to listen to the shit bits! His info is interesting and there’s nothing to buy. (I agree btw on the name dropping and commerciality - trying to sell his book, but show me someone in the media not engaged in this sort of self-publicity. They’re extremely rare).
On a more general point, (not saying you’re doing this Duncan), it amazes me how often I come across people unwilling to take in information on a subject - let’s say ‘athletic performance in the ageing male’ - based on what the person divulging said information believes about a completely independent subject - let’s say ‘political beliefs’.
They’re two independent things.
I see it in investment research all the time. People with worldviews and politics that may be completely 180 to my view. I don’t care, I’m interested in the information they have on one subject only - the subject I’m researching. If that info is useful and high quality then that’s what matters. Their views on anything ‘non subject matter’ are irrelevant. Agendas excepted and always need to be considered. :shrug:
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I’m going to assume you’ve no underlying medical problem. Blood test to screen for obvious stuff like blood sugar etc? Unfortunately going to your GP with this is likely to get as much attention as a middle aged woman saying she is tired. :(
I'm not assuming that!! Despite the logic in this thread I still have a bit of a gut instinct there could be something else wrong :shrug:
Anyway thanks for the as-exhaustive-as-expected-from-the-Professor-of-Climbology reply. I don't have a lot to reply as it's kinda reiterating / confirming some previous replies but I've paid attention to it.
I think one thing that is coming up is just being a bit more careful with my overall load, including factoring in rest days (I don't like them but am getting better at accepting them), and avoiding "junk metres" whether that's excessive climbing volume or metres of ferns and heather hacked out. As for the MH side, I am working on that in general so might become more tolerant of less sanity-maintaining but more effective forms of climbing-related activity.
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- Continue as you are, choosing this will involve a decline in performance. This wouldn't be the end of the world.
Hmmm, sometimes things just get better regardless don't they?
It can be good to take charge of a situation. But it's undeniable that some situations do sometimes just turn out well or at least better than feared. I guess I'm agreeing with Duncan in that it is important not to get too hung up about whether we can climb as well as we used too etc. But I'm going further and saying that sometimes we just get better (health/MH/climbing success etc) without ever understanding why or making any conscious intervention to bring it about.
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I mean, what do you need this strength for anyway? Bouldering? Bouldering is fucking bullshit. Routes? You don't need to be that strong to do the crux of most routes in your future oeuvre (stuff like Metal Guru can get straight in the bin).
Listen to the podcast? All the health benefits mentioned from resistance training?
Could maybe be worth thinking of terms of strength training as two separate categories, though -- stuff you do in the hope that it'll directly improve your climbing, and stuff you do for general health (including mental health).
Because you might not necessarily want the same levels of volume and intensity for both categories. And defining what purpose you're doing different things for could lead to being more selective/efficient.
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Basically, I have to count mental stress as part of the overall load on my body, when thinking about what I can do and how much recovery I need.
This ^
The frustrating and hard thing for me is that because I'm both autistic and depressive, "mental stress" for me includes "there were a lot of changes of plan and then I had to wait in a pub for an hour for the bus because it was raining and the music was too loud and my headphones are breaking and then I had to phone my bank because they've blocked my credit card again" or "I just woke up feeling incredibly awful for no reason, because my brain likes to do that sometimes!"
So I don't have a big dramatic external stressor to point to (and also this shit happens a lot). But I have been forced to acknowledge that it has as much of an impact on me as if I'd done some sort of super-gruelling training session, only with exactly zero benefits.
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Slab_happy, Chris Packham did a programme about his and 3 other people’s experiences called Asperger’s and Me. As you might imagine, it was thoughtfully handled. Did you see it? It’s not on iPlayer any more.
Fiend, I think the thread is really interesting but ironically, possibly directly less relevant to you than to many other posters? It sounds like the adaptations forced on you by injury, (more volume, lower intensity) would have served to keep your strength levels up 10 years ago but don’t work now. In other words, the biggest problem is healing injury. Deal with that and you might be free to climb in a way that keeps your power at a level you’d be perfectly happy with?
The only difference age has imposed on you is that you’d have got away with inefficient training as a youth, now you have to do the ‘proper’ way. And that means fixing injuries.
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Slab_happy, Chris Packham did a programme about his and 3 other people’s experiences called Asperger’s and Me. As you might imagine, it was thoughtfully handled. Did you see it? It’s not on iPlayer any more.
Haven't seen it, but heard good things! I tend to skip a lot of the "awareness-raising" type things about autism because I feel I am already sufficiently Aware.
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It's more about general climbing rather than strength in particular, but in depth advice from 50yo Steve McClure: https://steve-mcclure.com/articles/151-training-for-old-folk (https://steve-mcclure.com/articles/151-training-for-old-folk)
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I’m going to assume you’ve no underlying medical problem. Blood test to screen for obvious stuff like blood sugar etc? Unfortunately going to your GP with this is likely to get as much attention as a middle aged woman saying she is tired. :(
I'm not assuming that!! Despite the logic in this thread I still have a bit of a gut instinct there could be something else wrong
This was my way of saying my answer could be wrong if you have an underlying medical problem. I have no idea. In general, I would go to DMs if I thought someone described strong red flags.
On a more general point, (not saying you’re doing this Duncan), it amazes me how often I come across people unwilling to take in information on a subject - let’s say ‘athletic performance in the ageing male’ - based on what the person divulging said information believes about a completely independent subject - let’s say ‘political beliefs’.
They’re two independent things.
I see it in investment research all the time. People with worldviews and politics that may be completely 180 to my view. I don’t care, I’m interested in the information they have on one subject only - the subject I’m researching. If that info is useful and high quality then that’s what matters. Their views on anything ‘non subject matter’ are irrelevant. Agendas excepted and always need to be considered. :shrug:
Thanks Pete. I originally wrote “I would normally cross the road to avoid celebrity personal trainers ...” but that meant using celebrity in two consecutive sentences so changed it to David Cameron’s. In my experience, celebrity personal trainers are stronger on social skills than knowledge so I don’t tend to look to them for the latter.
I could write an essay on whether someone’s political views influence how much credence I give them in other fields. In short, it depends on the field.
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There seems to be no clear answer that I could find on which is theoretically best out of:
8hr 'eating window', 16hr fast, then eat before workout, then normal eating (or limited calories day).
8hr eating window, 16hr fast, then workout before eating, then normal eating (or limited calories day).
I tried option a) yesterday. Ate nothing from 8pm until 12, ate a small carby "breakfast" then waited half an our and did a hard HIIT session of core exercises and dumbells for half an hour. Had a very good session, felt like I had lots of energy while doing it, then had a protein "lunch" afterwards, and ate normally for the rest of the day. Might try and do it a couple of times as week, on days I am WFH and see results.
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There seems to be no clear answer that I could find on which is theoretically best out of:
8hr 'eating window', 16hr fast, then eat before workout, then normal eating (or limited calories day).
8hr eating window, 16hr fast, then workout before eating, then normal eating (or limited calories day).
I tried option a) yesterday. Ate nothing from 8pm until 12, ate a small carby "breakfast" then waited half an our and did a hard HIIT session of core exercises and dumbells for half an hour. Had a very good session, felt like I had lots of energy while doing it, then had a protein "lunch" afterwards, and ate normally for the rest of the day. Might try and do it a couple of times as week, on days I am WFH and see results.
Were you not on the:
(https://aiptcomics.com/ezoimgfmt/i0.wp.com/aiptcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/28271469c61ef49046f85e299bb5de9e.jpg?resize=740%2C740&ssl=1&ezimgfmt=rs:412x412/rscb4/ngcb4/notWebP)
diet Chris?
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Slab_happy, Chris Packham did a programme about his and 3 other people’s experiences called Asperger’s and Me. As you might imagine, it was thoughtfully handled. Did you see it? It’s not on iPlayer any more.
Fiend, I think the thread is really interesting but ironically, possibly directly less relevant to you than to many other posters? It sounds like the adaptations forced on you by injury, (more volume, lower intensity) would have served to keep your strength levels up 10 years ago but don’t work now. In other words, the biggest problem is healing injury. Deal with that and you might be free to climb in a way that keeps your power at a level you’d be perfectly happy with?
The only difference age has imposed on you is that you’d have got away with inefficient training as a youth, now you have to do the ‘proper’ way. And that means fixing injuries.
He should sign up for a coached lattice plan ;)
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Were you not on the:
diet Chris?
I am, might do this once or twice though.
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An old folk reflection from Mark Cobb here: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/climbing_with_age-13842
Nothing gob smacking but I liked this line: 'In my head, I'm still ageless.' That's both the solution and the problem: wanting to keep trying hard and get better ...but there's a relentless biological clock ticking.
I was chatting to a regular at the wall this week who mentioned he had Parkinsons. Never knew, never showed. Puts your own steady decline into some sort of perspective.
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Interesting thread and one which makes me feel pretty fortunate. It has left me pondering over my situation. I probably operate a bit like the guy in the last article linked, in that I don't think or feel old when I climb. However I'm 59 and will be 60 in a few months, something I find quite hard to accept. My body currently certainly feels old, I groan, creak, teeth ache, knees a bit shot, one meniscopy a couple of years ago, etc etc. However in the last couple of years I have climbed some 7C's, couple of FA's 7C and 8A, so I must be doing something right.
I've always been weak, 6ft and slim and strongish fingers. I've always been a bit lazy, never bothered with volume, never been bothered with flashing or onsights (happy if I do). But one key might be that I like working problems, often over years. I think this means that injuries can be avoided, I rarely push my body into unfamiliar positions or extreme and unknown loadings (I always feel closest to getting injured in social situations at climbing walls).
I've also not really been conscientious with warming up, again lazy and avoiding volume. I do now warm up more, but only on a portable finger board. Of course the upshot of this is I lose power quite quickly in a session, so my sessions are short and intense, maybe this a key point.
I've trained pretty much all of my 45 years, using as key mantra Jerry's 'listen to your body' and not getting that hung up with training plans (in fact never followed one).
Another key point for the longevity is that the intensity of bouldering and training sessions has slowly increased over the 45 years. I think I mean that when I started climbing, you didn't really need to be that strong, so I wasn't. I've always favoured crimpy problems and as crimpy problems got harder and steeper, I've had to get stronger and as I've got stronger, I've climbed harder and steeper crimpy problems.
So it all comes down to specificity I think. Oh and I have had my own board on some form or other since the late 90's, maybe even earlier (can't remember!)
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Wow. I'm going to print this out and stick it on my fridge!
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Oh and I have had my own board on some form or other since the late 90's, maybe even earlier (can't remember!)
I realise board climbing is a mainstay for pretty much all capable climbers. Probably stupidly I've never tried it, so apologies if this question is muddled. I was sort of thinking that classic lurch and latch explosive style board climbing would just break the older climber. A friend of mine (younger than me) said that he stopped doing the hands-follow-feet Moon Board problems because he kept getting injured. He still uses his board but for climbing in a more "outdoor" style. Are you still doing hands-follow-feet problems and are you climbing them in that explosive style? I'm very happy to be corrected on any misconceptions I'm revealing here too.
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Oh and I have had my own board on some form or other since the late 90's, maybe even earlier (can't remember!)
I realise board climbing is a mainstay for pretty much all capable climbers. Probably stupidly I've never tried it, so apologies if this question is muddled. I was sort of thinking that classic lurch and latch explosive style board climbing would just break the older climber. A friend of mine (younger than me) said that he stopped doing the hands-follow-feet Moon Board problems because he kept getting injured. He still uses his board but for climbing in a more "outdoor" style. Are you still doing hands-follow-feet problems and are you climbing them in that explosive style? I'm very happy to be corrected on any misconceptions I'm revealing here too.
I don't know what the newer moon sets are like, but I always found the holds quite tweaky (unpleasant), with a propensity for a stray finger to drop/pop of the angular bits. I have one of the white sets, although I only use a small proportion of the set on my board(s). Wood is much nicer, ergonomic and better in warm conditions and friendlier on the skin, etc etc. If you are not doing 'moon problems' then there is not much reason to do feet follow hands. Maybe feet follow hands is an easier concept to communicate and share/market. I'd be interested to hear what other folk think about 'feet follow hands'?
I think a good board set up allows a variety of approaches, controlled locks etc at one end of the spectrum to limit explosive moves at the other end of the spectrum. What kind of injuries did you friend pick up?
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I think feet follow hands usually creates more realistic and varied movement than having open feet on small screw ons. It doesn't have to mean cutting loose in typical moon board style. Set feet works even better in my view.
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I only know that they were finger injuries of some sort(s). He attributed them to doing the set problems that apparently are available with the Moon Board. He then changed to doing problems he made up, which apparently are of a different style to the official Moon Board problems.
My (probably mistaken) impression was that the feet-follow-hands thing wasn't so much about communication, rather a way to induce that "board style" of climbing/training so as to get the training benefit. I'm extremely ignorant about all of this though.
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I find the HFF method of climbing as per Moon problems is very different to the way that I as an aging gent climb, or have ever climbed. My usual approach for steep climbing is "hand lurch, move one foot, move the other foot (maybe move a foot again) other hand lurch" rather than the Moon HFF - "hand lurch, contort or cut loose to get one foot on the next hold, hand lurch" which, while it probably gets you stronger, can also get you injured from doing awkward over extended moves.
My home board is only wee, but it has a good variety of moves and foot options that you can use for the probs; any feet, HFF, crappy foot jibs for feet. There is one big knobbly foothold in the middle that is called the Maypole, because you inevitably dance around it on most of the probs where you don;t have to avoid it.
Otherwise, like Yoss, I could have written the first phree paragraphs of Any W's post myself.
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I think feet follow hands usually creates more realistic and varied movement than having open feet on small screw ons. It doesn't have to mean cutting loose in typical moon board style. Set feet works even better in my view.
When you set the feet, are you (or Chris or Andy or anyone) typically setting them to give an "out-door" climbing style or to induce the exceptionally powerful style that I presumed was what gave board training its magic sauce?
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Ideally both.
Just using small chips means you end up doing the same foot moves over and over. Perhaps this isn't so bad for someone who climbs on a board once per week but I generally do 3-4 board sessions a week, so I like to use feet pointing in various directions, different sizes, heel hooks, toe hooks and I even have a problem with a hard knee bar...
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I think feet follow hands usually creates more realistic and varied movement than having open feet on small screw ons. It doesn't have to mean cutting loose in typical moon board style. Set feet works even better in my view.
By the time I get my feet high enough to stand on the starting hand holds I’m at the top of my board. Unless I put heel next to my hands as I start.
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I think feet follow hands usually creates more realistic and varied movement than having open feet on small screw ons. It doesn't have to mean cutting loose in typical moon board style. Set feet works even better in my view.
I could be in a kind of loop where the problems I aspire to do, I mimic on my board. But I'm struggling to think of problems outside that have a FFH feel. I'm sure FFH does have a place in training, but how much I'm not sure. The point I made earlier about problems of this kind being more communicable/marketable must be a little true. LED light systems wouldn't work without FFH, unless you have two different coloured lights. Actually I have no idea about this, anyone enlighten me?
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I think feet follow hands usually creates more realistic and varied movement than having open feet on small screw ons. It doesn't have to mean cutting loose in typical moon board style. Set feet works even better in my view.
When you set the feet, are you (or Chris or Andy or anyone) typically setting them to give an "out-door" climbing style or to induce the exceptionally powerful style that I presumed was what gave board training its magic sauce?
I often use small foot holds, as the problems get wired I make them worse, more awkward, etc, this is a training effect. Also very controllable, which is important for an ageing body. Big moves which FFH often are, I think might not be so controllable.
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I think feet follow hands usually creates more realistic and varied movement than having open feet on small screw ons. It doesn't have to mean cutting loose in typical moon board style. Set feet works even better in my view.
By the time I get my feet high enough to stand on the starting hand holds I’m at the top of my board. Unless I put heel next to my hands as I start.
This is true ;)
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I think feet follow hands usually creates more realistic and varied movement than having open feet on small screw ons. It doesn't have to mean cutting loose in typical moon board style. Set feet works even better in my view.
I could be in a kind of loop where the problems I aspire to do, I mimic on my board. But I'm struggling to think of problems outside that have a FFH feel. I'm sure FFH does have a place in training, but how much I'm not sure. The point I made earlier about problems of this kind being more communicable/marketable must be a little true. LED light systems wouldn't work without FFH, unless you have two different coloured lights. Actually I have no idea about this, anyone enlighten me?
The kilter has different LED colours to allow you to add additional footholds when setting a problem and there are a lot of smaller holds for that purpose on the board. A lot of the better quality Moonboard problems revolve around feet that aren’t the same as the handholds forcing moves similar to laybacking an arête with your feet out to the side, or doing a big lock off poor hands rocking onto a good foot.
There’s also quite a range of setting on both boards from small moves on small holds to the getting to the top in two moves which they are probably more known for.
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When you set the feet, are you (or Chris or Andy or anyone) typically setting them to give an "out-door" climbing style or to induce the exceptionally powerful style that I presumed was what gave board training its magic sauce?
I usually set with the same type / colour of holds, otherwise I forget where I am supposed to go! I do the prob first using any feet, then switch to HFF or I have a grid of crappy foot bibs screwed on in the gaps between the holds. Some probs are harder as HFF, some are harder on the jibs. Don't know about any sauce, but a lot of the hard climbing round here is on small edges an crap feet, so I try and emulated that. Loke Webbo, my board is too small and not steep enough for doing hard heelhooks etc. I save that for wall sessions.
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Firstly any tall slim people with strong fingers who have been training on a board all their climbing life, the door is over there and please shut it firmly as it's bloody cold tonight, ta :P
Secondly:
Fiend, I think the thread is really interesting but ironically, possibly directly less relevant to you than to many other posters?
I think it's quite relevant to me as it's my thread, about me, with my questions ;). But then again maybe the answers are less relevant - which would be business as usual - but the general theme seems to be one which can explain the situation?? Although, as much as I understand the "triple whammy" logic, I still have a gut instinct something else might be up.
It sounds like the adaptations forced on you by injury, (more volume, lower intensity) would have served to keep your strength levels up 10 years ago but don’t work now. In other words, the biggest problem is healing injury. Deal with that and you might be free to climb in a way that keeps your power at a level you’d be perfectly happy with?
Yes but....part of the reason I posted this is about strength losses that aren't just climbing, and aren't as hampered by injury - this is why the weights issue highlighted it so much to me. I'd expect strength losses in lat pulldowns, bicep curls and maybe rows due to my persistent elbow problems. But bench and overhead press - yes they could be impacted by my impinged right shoulder, BUT my left shoulder feels just as weak, sometimes more so, without any injury. Deadlifts - yes I've had a gracillis tweak, but whilst this was very apparent in hamstring curls, it was negligible in deadlifts. Generally the weights are an area where I've not injured myself doing it, can measure a variety of lifts to avoid current injuries, am not hampered by my own weight, and I've been consistently able to get back into until this last year - hence the decline is more striking.
The only difference age has imposed on you is that you’d have got away with inefficient training as a youth, now you have to do the ‘proper’ way. And that means fixing injuries.
Well, yes, talking about climbing specifically, that does seem to be the thing (and something I would consider as The Thing in general IF it was affecting my weights benchmarking too). I am trying a lot harder to get the balance right of enjoying my climbing (and other activities) which is enjoyable, and continually looking after my current injuries, which is not enjoyable (and sometimes quite detrimental to my mental, or even, physical health, and YES I know that being perma-injured is also very detrimental, my brain might be wonky but it's not entirely stupid). Generally the proper way is an anathema to my piss-poor motivation but yes I'm trying to be more receptive to the bits I can be receptive too (e.g. rest a bit more sensibly and don't be tempted to go to freezing cold board walls that I'm unfamiliar with and would struggle to ease into).
Thirdly, this thread, the responses, and the concepts, are still swirling around in my head. Some of those swirls are stuff like "I really am fucked strength wise, this is it". Some of the swirls are exactly the same as that but suffixed with "...but maybe I can try to slow the decline a bit by being a bit more tactical about what I do" (not that I am uninjured enough to contemplate anything remotely approaching "training" in the foreseeable future). Some of them are being more aware of junk metres, both in climbing volume and also in metres of grot excavated / de-ferned - I am starting to think more about getting the balance right between "this activity could calm the voices a bit" and "this activity could also keep fatiguing me and pushing my further from climbing capability". I'm not quite at the stage for "this other activity is boring as fuck, really repetitive, I'd rather motivate myself to lick the base of Wilton clean with my tongue.....but if I do it all the fucking time then it might proof me against injury x,y,z"...which is my other personal weakness ofc.
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You’ve obviously got a range of injuries which inhibit what you can do and how you can do it, and that must be appallingly frustrating. Navigating through to a broadly uninjured state must be very difficult.
For me it was elbow woes, compounded by some bad luck and it took lay off, tiny incremental approach to loading, plenty of shoulder strengthening and seeing the light about consistency and intensity- but it resolved, eventually.
What I was getting at (hopefully without coming across as snotty) was that a lot of the thread responses were about how to handle ageing. For sure it increasingly affects us all, but I wouldn’t be too fatalistic about this at your age. I think you are old enough to have to work round this now, but too young for that to be THE deciding factor.
I see some regret for not developing more strength when it was easier to do so, but lId look at how much untapped potential that gives you, once you have resolved some current difficulties.
Maybe get some health tests from the GP to check in on overall level of health?
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Thanks once again MrJR :smartass:
You’ve obviously got a range of injuries which inhibit what you can do and how you can do it, and that must be appallingly frustrating. Navigating through to a broadly uninjured state must be very difficult.
For the purposes of this thread, not really, as the issue I'm concerned about is strength losses that are not injury related (nor weight related). Although I do appreciate your sympathy as injuries have definited my lack of climbing physical capability in the last 3-4 years.
For me it was elbow woes, compounded by some bad luck and it took lay off, tiny incremental approach to loading, plenty of shoulder strengthening and seeing the light about consistency and intensity- but it resolved, eventually.
Well, yes, going back to climbing strengths instead, this is definitely an important area, and other posters have highlighted publicly and in PMs that injury management is crucial as one gets older. I take your point that I too need to focus on shoulder strengthening (as well as letting my TE recover). I did Arnold Presses at the gym the other day...and need to do a hell of a lot more of that sort of stuff.
What I was getting at (hopefully without coming across as snotty) was that a lot of the thread responses were about how to handle ageing. For sure it increasingly affects us all, but I wouldn’t be too fatalistic about this at your age. I think you are old enough to have to work round this now, but too young for that to be THE deciding factor.
(Not snotty at all ;) ). This is true, those were the responses, but my initial question wasn't specifically about age, it was a general "WTF is going on??" (in strength measurements that aren't hampered by injury / weight). People have replied about more age-related factors that I had considered, and that does make sense to me, but I wasn't necessarily expecting age to be THE deciding factor (although personally I think the DVTs and weight make my effective age a bit older...). Either way, the general consensus of being more sensible and careful seems a good one.
I see some regret for not developing more strength when it was easier to do so, but lId look at how much untapped potential that gives you, once you have resolved some current difficulties.
You are very optimistic!! I am not aiming to develop more strength, I am not aiming to maintain strength nor stop the decline, I am only aiming to SLOW the decline. Which is still something to strive for. And the same principles of sense and care apply to that.
Incidentally I think with the weights, I didn't try hard to gain more strength when it was easier to do so (unlike climbing where I've been trying hard for 20 years or so), but when I did start trying hard 6-8 years ago, I did see some GAINZ (now all lost).
Maybe get some health tests from the GP to check in on overall level of health?
Yes.
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Jamie G: Good point and I was going to mention that as it was something I considered, and I'm aware there can be a correlation. I personally don't feel my correlation is strong enough: Firstly I got to my strongest with lifting around 2018 when I had some increased depression (from post-norovirus nausea bouts). Secondly my mental health is marginally better and more stable than it was last autumn / winter, even if the strength is lower. Thirdly, it seems to be a very physiological thing - I don't feel I like motivation or commitment or effort at the gym (and definitely not at the wall). I feel good to try hard, and then the muscles just don't do as much as they could/should/have. Not ruling it out but I'm not sure TBH.
Okay so just watched DMaccy's latest, eloquent but fairly unrevelatory video about rest days. One thing that did come out was stressors affecting recovery, including mental health, and this got me thinking about the long term picture.
As per my reply to Jamie G above, I haven't found any "nearby" correlation between mental health issues and pure physical performance (in fact the latter has often been a reliable retreat from the former!), but maybe in the longer term, more prolonged mental health issues could affect my recovery and strength maintenance over time. E.g. the accumulation of regular depressive "rest" days where although I've felt strong in surrounding events, the physiological effects of the depression have been nibbling away at recovery for the long term.
Not that I have any enlightened protocol from that possibility. I am in general taking more care with rest days though.
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One definite positive is you are engaging with the struggle and being open minded about how to improve both mental and physical health. Hope you are seeing some improvements. Definitely not easy!
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the idea is you have a feeding window of 8hrs, then a 'fast' for 16hrs, followed by workout, followed by a day of 800 calories, then back to normal.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/intermittent-fasting-cardiovascular-heart-disease-death-b2515400.html
FFS, can't win :)
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I could not find the original study. From the newspaper article it sounds like they found that people who decided that they need a radical weight loss diet are overweight?
Surely that must just be a bad writeup?
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I know it's probably tabloid hype, hence the smiley. More clickbait like the horrendous snowstorms we've been forecasted (promised) a dozen times this winter.
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https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-conference-abstract-about-time-restricted-eating-and-cardiovascular-death/
Nothing to see here. Move along slowly.
SMC always a good first port of call for clickbait shite in the press.
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https://music.amazon.co.uk/podcasts/f2b36f7a-d734-483d-bce1-b0bdcf6a9b4f/episodes/e1836102-c253-46e5-bbe7-5ea767e8fbdc/always-another-adventure-76-dr-peter-clarkson-cardiologist-climber-how-hard-should-older-athletes-train
Probably more for endurance sports, but a bit of everything. There is the option of video in link.