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11
music, art and culture / Re: UK development built from historical slavery???
« Last post by andy popp on Yesterday at 02:47:12 pm »
Funny coincidence, the journal I edit (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/enterprise-and-society) just - literally the last few minutes - received a new submission on the role of agents and merchants in the City of London in the payment of compensation to slaveowners following abolition in 1833. Just another way in which the City manage to monetise slavery.

On that compensation, I have a colleague doing excellent work on how payments were recycled into investments in the railways, then going through their first big boom.
12
music, art and culture / Re: UK development built from historical slavery???
« Last post by stone on Yesterday at 02:43:17 pm »
Andy- I certainly didn't know all of that political context and it's great to get that from you.
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music, art and culture / Re: UK development built from historical slavery???
« Last post by stone on Yesterday at 02:41:05 pm »
It would be interesting to know how modern slavery affects economies in the present day. I'm guessing that will also be very difficult to unpick!
I wonder whether the consequence of modern slavery (in the form of eg agricultural labourers, car-washers, etc), might be opposite to the influx of money from slave trading in the 1800s. It removes the need to innovate in labour-saving innovation.
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music, art and culture / Re: UK development built from historical slavery???
« Last post by andy popp on Yesterday at 02:36:13 pm »
I want to stress that I utterly utterly detest slavery and colonialism. My questioning of the causal link between slavery and the industrial revolution doesn't indicate any sympathy for the slave traders etc.

Sorry Stone, absolutely did want or mean to imply you had any sympathies at all with slavery and enslavers. That couldn't have been further from my mind. I was just giving general contemporary context for this debate who might be interested but not know all the ins and outs.
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music, art and culture / Re: UK development built from historical slavery???
« Last post by stone on Yesterday at 02:29:38 pm »
Sean - thanks so much for that -awesome! It is so interesting that agricultural land-owners got poorer. That might I suppose have been due to a shortage of labour/higher wages. To me (I'm freely admitting my political bias) that could go along with the notion that simply paying workers better (eg by increasing bargaining power) can induce economic development and technological innovation. https://www.ft.com/content/b7ad1c68-59fb-11e2-b728-00144feab49a .

Andy -I take your point that there is a lot of nasty politics swirling around this whole subject. I want to stress that I utterly utterly detest slavery and colonialism. My questioning of the causal link between slavery and the industrial revolution doesn't indicate any sympathy for the slave traders etc. It seems to me that attributing industrialisation to slave trading is, if anything, crediting slave trading with something positive.
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news / Re: Significant First Ascents
« Last post by Ally Smith on Yesterday at 01:42:48 pm »
Alex Barrows has completed the often eyed up link of  Hard Times SS (8B) into Sean's Roof (8A/+) to give "Pretence of Youth".

It's been given the ultimate cop-out slash grading monstrosity: 8B+/C/9a/+!
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music, art and culture / Re: UK development built from historical slavery???
« Last post by Fultonius on Yesterday at 12:07:16 pm »
It would be interesting to know how modern slavery affects economies in the present day. I'm guessing that will also be very difficult to unpick!
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music, art and culture / Re: UK development built from historical slavery???
« Last post by seankenny on Yesterday at 11:30:44 am »
This is a subject filed under "interesting and should read up on it someday" so, as much for myself as for Stone, I did a quick search to find a relevant paper with a literature review that would provide some suitable starting points. This 2023 paper "Slavery and the British Industrial Revolution" - https://www.princeton.edu/~reddings/papers/SBIR_Paper.pdf - does that, how well I can't comment but I'm assuming it's up to scratch and it includes the two sources Andy gave above. It also gives a good insight as to how some quantitative estimates of the effects of slavery (or other events) can be calculated.

The paper attempts to assess the impact of slavery on the British economy up until abolition in 1833. The technical bits of the paper are complicated but the idea is standard in modern empirical economics. It's just a "natural experiment" - the authors have looked for a source of random variation that separates otherwise very similar slave traders, in order to isolate the causal effects of their slave trading activities. In this case that variation is time spent sailing across the Atlantic, as more time at sea tended to kill slaves and reduce the profitability of the venture. They then connect data about each voyage's backers to different parts of the UK and do a bunch of stuff to try and firm up casuality (excuse the handwaving explanation) and find:

"Using only data up to the 1830s, we show that exogenous increases in slavery wealth in the preceding period are strongly correlated with a lower agricultural employment share, a higher manufacturing employment share, more cotton mills, and higher property values at the time of abolition."

They then try estimate some aggregate effects on the entire British economy:

"We use the model to calculate a counterfactual in which we assume that Britain had no involvement in slavery. Comparing actual levels of economic activity in 1833 to those in this counterfactual, we find that slavery wealth raises national income by around 3.5 percent, which corresponds to a decade of growth in income per capita at the time. For the locations within Britain with the greatest involvement in slavery, total income increases by more than 40 percent. The model also suggests that slavery had important implications for the distribution of income: in the most exposed locations, capital owners’ income rises by more than 100 percent, and the income of landowners falls by around 7 percent. Workers, on average, benefit from the industrial development induced and accelerated by slave wealth.

"Our results do not suggest that slavery was essential for Britain’s industrialization; nor do they demonstrate that its effects were largely irrelevant. Instead, our quantitative results mark a middle ground, with slavery significantly accelerating growth and structural change at the height of the Indusrial Revolution. The largest impact, according to our model, is on
the geography of economic activity and the distribution of income, with towns and cities that are exposed to slave wealth growing faster. As a result, slavery wealth shifted the locus of economic activity to the North and West of the country, and it boosted the income of capitalists and workers at the expense of landowners."

I can think of some obvious criticisms, eg slave-trading and slaveholding might not be as linked as the authors claim, or that there are other obvious reasons for manufacturing industry to be based in the north and west of England which aren't accounted for in this model. It includes a counterfactual, economists love them but ymmv. There may well be more sophisticated criticisms of their approach but my econometric skills really aren't good enough to begin making those. And of course this is just one paper - but its findings of "important but not decisive" matched my priors, as the argument that slavery didn't cause industrialisation elsewhere carries a reasonable amount of weight for me.

If anyone is interested in the intellectual background of the kind of causal estimations occuring here, then maybe the Nobel acceptance speech of of Joshua Angrist, one of its key developers, might be worth a read: https://www.nobelprize.org/uploads/2021/10/advanced-economicsciencesprize2021.pdf

Also Stone, if you're interested in modern policy implications, surely it would be better to read up on Taiwan, South Korea and Poland, all of which have become developed countries very recently?
19
chuffing / Re: Upper cave crag - Dunkeld - access
« Last post by RobinB on Yesterday at 09:58:01 am »
Nice one - thanks Wil - now all I need is a decent weather forecast. What could possibly go wrong  :)
20
chuffing / Re: Upper cave crag - Dunkeld - access
« Last post by Wil on Yesterday at 09:33:03 am »
I've not been for a few weeks, but I've not heard anything about any change in access. Once you're at the Cally Car Park take the path at the north side, next to the information sign. Go up for about 10m and take the large path on the left. After maybe 400m there's a small path that breaks right, follow this underneath some buttresses (with a couple of sport routes), over a long fallen yew tree. After this you go up 10m over slightly muddy/rocky ground, then cross the stream next to a hermitage in the boulders. A steep path lead up the dirt slope past some big mossy boulders, turn right to cross the stream again, then it's a steep climb up the slope to the crag.
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