UKBouldering.com

the shizzle => get involved: access, environment, BMC => Topic started by: shark on January 14, 2017, 09:30:13 am

Title: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 14, 2017, 09:30:13 am
This is a genuine question directed mainly to non-members but also to members i.e. Did you join because of a direct benefit or requirement or out of general support for the (good) things it is doing?

It was prompted by chatting with Tomtom and Jim yesterday and I was surprised that both being keen climbers (so beneficiaries of access etc) weren't members and wouldn't consider joining unless there was a direct benefit to them (thanks for your honesty). I'm sure both can afford the £31.45 pa.

If that is generally the case then to increase membership (the main source of income) then there should be a greater emphasis on direct benefits rather than doing general good and expecting people to join. Or perhaps the direct benefit is the nudge and then members stay for the general good. Just trying to get my head around it  :-\

Might post a poll later on a separate thread.
Title: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: cheque on January 14, 2017, 09:50:27 am
wouldn't consider joining unless there was a direct benefit to them (thanks for your honesty). I'm sure both can afford the £31.45 pa.

You don't have to make that much use of the discount (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/get-discounts-in-shops-nationwide) to make the £30 back.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Teaboy on January 14, 2017, 10:02:55 am
 I've been a full member for about 10 years. I joined and am a member purely to contribute to their access work. I guess living in (near) Manchester I'm more familiar with BMC and the people who work there so maybe that helps but I do wonder why people with a reasonable income and for whom climbing is one of the most important things going on for them (outside of the usual family, work etc) don't contribute/join.

That said I'm a very sporadic giver to bolt funds when I should give a lot more so maybe it's just a case of people not being badgered to join in the same way I give to bolt funds if someone comes rattling a tin but don't seek them out
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 14, 2017, 10:03:53 am
I was since age 16 (we, as a family too until ~3years ago). Then basically stopped going into the mountains to "dangerous" things and didn't need the insurance so much and (honestly) forgot to renew a couple years ago. It's been on the "must remember that, when I've got the money" list ever since. It never seemed relevant enough to spend the money (we have none spare).
When I was setting up the wall, we got short shrift from the BMC climbing wall rep at the time. The SW rep was AWOL. We were simply left with the impression that as a Bouldering wall, we were slightly less welcome than a stale dog turd through the letter box.
(It was a lot more complicated than those few sentences imply, but not all appropriate to detail here. I had a conversation with another wall owning UKBer on the subject and spoke to several other wall owners before coming to that conclusion).

So, being me, I kinda decided to ignore them right back.

Also, when I asked for materials etc to display to support them, I was told we could pay them £Xhundred if we wanted to be affiliated (or some such). I bought some more holds instead.

And so on.

However, there is a new BMC SW rep and a meeting in the Quay tonight and I'm going (as in I will be joining again) and have agreed to start promoting the organisation again at the wall.

To be clear, it was never a deliberate boycott! It was just too difficult to get anywhere, to sacrifice the time needed to organise anything; it never seemed relevant to Bouldering. It just wasn't imminent in our world anymore. If it wasn't for the YCS, there would be no contact at all.

Mark is the first rep to even bother to send us an email, in the four years we've been open. How about that for missed recruiting opportunities? We bring hundreds of new climbers into the sport every year, but...
(Of course, to many, that makes us "the Bad Guys").




All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: remus on January 14, 2017, 10:11:02 am
I hope this thread doesn't get too preachy, it'd be genuinely interesting to hear why people do/don't sign up.

Personally I signed up mainly for the insurance, the annual package thing covers my needs pretty nicely. I've got a lot of time for their access work as well. I hope that even if I didnt need the insurance Id sign up to support their access work.
Title: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on January 14, 2017, 10:22:47 am
.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dunnyg on January 14, 2017, 11:08:14 am
Signed up for insurance pretty much. Usually do atleast 1 trip a year so on the direct debit train. Been to a few meetings but stopped going as they didnt seem overly relavent and the meetongs moved further away.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Fultonius on January 14, 2017, 11:29:29 am
I've been a member on and off for 10 years, mainly off. I usually join when I need insurance. This last time I joined the MCofS instead and I'll probably join the SMC this spring.

Up here North of the Wall the BMC doesn't really do much. I prefer my money to stay more local and still get insurance through them anyway, if I don't just go Austrian Alpine Club.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Duma on January 14, 2017, 11:32:29 am
Joined for the Cheddar access stuff. I know I should have anyway, but that was what gave me the nudge.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 14, 2017, 12:37:42 pm
I hope this thread doesn't get too preachy, it'd be genuinely interesting to hear why people do/don't sign up.

+1

Thinking back to my experiences (journey) I had a very poor view of the BMC when I was young. As a local new router in the Peak in my twenties I felt all CC, BMC type organisations were for old men and contrary to the individualist nature of the sport. In particular I thought "fuck them" when I heard that a Peak Area meet had "decided" that there was a ban on any bolting at High Tor (irrespective of whether it affected existing routes or not). If I had "joined" at any point it would have been purely to do with getting insurance.

When they started a bolt fund I started warming to the organisation but still had nothing to do with them. The only BMC area meet was in 2003?. I went in case my removal of the chockstone on Right Eliminate came up. It did.

When Mike was selling UKB 5 years ago the BMC approached Mike potentially with a view to saving or supporting the site if required as a kind of Community asset. They stepped aside when Toby and I made an offer but I thought it was very forward thinking of them to even contemplate such a move. I then met Dave Turnbull (Chief Exec) for the first time and they became the first UKB sponsor. Naturally I joined as a member and have remained a member, started going to Area Meetings and becoming increasingly involved.   

 
   
Title: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 14, 2017, 12:54:23 pm
There exists the possibility we (you Simon) are now the old men...


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 14, 2017, 01:15:51 pm
There exists the possibility we (you Simon) are now the old men...

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on January 14, 2017, 02:13:18 pm
There exists the possibility we (you Simon) are now the old men...

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about

Well if you needed a sign of getting old... ;)
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: highrepute on January 14, 2017, 03:22:29 pm
I joined to support the cause, quite a few years ago now. Obvious that the BMC have done a lot for access to crags around sheffield/manchester.

I thought you could get their insurance without being a member, is that wrong?

I've been to chedder so the liability insurance has come in useful but wasn't of interest when i joined.

I do enjoy reading the mag.

Have you asked the same Q on ukc simon?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Offwidth on January 14, 2017, 04:19:58 pm
As a PhD student I ended up being armed twisted into helping with my Uni club and stayed that way for 16 years. After the first year it was obvious that the club would benefit massively from the BMC in terms of insurance, practical help with dealing with the idiots in the SU and with training, especially winter and Conville. I held off being a full member as it appeared the organisation was a bit old fashioned and introspective from visits to BMC events and overhearing the Ken Wilson type clique politicing too loadly in climbing bars. Things changed when John Horsecroft took over the peak area meetings (it became more friendly and directly challenged the old buggers) and improved again when Dave became CEO. Hence, I joined as an idividual as well and have supported them as much as I can since. No point talking fully about benefits as it a bit like Life of Brian what did the romans ever do for us? The most important to me is access and volunteer coordination and support.

I think they usually do a really good job juggling difficult pressures from the different areas they work with and I get pissed off when single issue folk get disproportionately  ratty and threaten them (eg over Climb Britain.. which looked like an honest old fashioned cock up rather than a major conspiricy). Its slightly depressing that so many climbers and hillwalkers who could easily afford to join don't,  but thats a sign of our society... too many people cant be arsed to do stuff.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: andy popp on January 14, 2017, 05:25:43 pm
You mean actually join an organization that is prepared to employ Grimer?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: T_B on January 14, 2017, 05:59:34 pm
I'm a member through my club, not sure what extra I'd get with full membership? I get Summit anyway as I advertise in it.

Obvs lots of ways to try and boost membership. The website not being responsive nor even having a mobile version can't help. I'd expect at least a third of traffic should be from mobile but seeing as the site is unusable...

Summit is fab and the BMCs social media communications are excellent but when it comes to the means of actually taking out membership, there's way too much "friction".
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: abarro81 on January 14, 2017, 06:04:39 pm
I originally joined when I was 18 for the insurance for my first foreign trips. I stayed partly for the insurance and partly to help fund the access stuff. Then I stopped using the insurance because
- it seemed to get more expensive
- I realised how many other (cheaper) providers would cover what I wanted to do
- they changed their trip limits so it's now crap for big trips

I stayed a member anyway but then didn't renew last year as I was away (wasn't on direct debit as I was a student and IIRC the cheaper DD deal didn't apply to students) and haven't gotten around to doing it since I came back.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 14, 2017, 06:11:40 pm
nor even having a mobile version can't help. I'd expect at least a third of traffic should be from mobile but seeing as the site is unusable...

I believe the mobile version is imminent
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 14, 2017, 06:15:13 pm
Have you asked the same Q on ukc simon?

Noooo.

Thanks for all the responses so far. Really helpful. Keep them coming


Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Andy B on January 14, 2017, 06:38:21 pm
Originally joined for the insurance but found that it stopped being competitive with other providers quite a while ago. Have been a member for the last 8-10 years entirely to support the access, conservation and guidebook work, and in spite of some other activities, for example those which could be seen as "promoting" climbing.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shurt on January 14, 2017, 07:01:45 pm
Joined for the Cheddar access stuff. I know I should have anyway, but that was what gave me the nudge.

Same here. I only joined for Cheddar insurance i.e. technically you can't climb there without it as a condition of access. Im glad I'm a member now after a few years on a DD and can see the advantages. I climbed for years without membership and (personally) think I shouldn't have. They do great stuff for access to crags and should be supported. I'm not here demanding people join btw
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 14, 2017, 07:19:46 pm
I thought you could get their insurance without being a member, is that wrong?

You have to be a member
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on January 14, 2017, 07:40:01 pm
Isn't the insurance story something along the lines of the premiums rocketed a few years back when professional chancer Bear Grylls demanded an arguably unnecessary helicopter rescue from Antarctica, and hence fucked it up for everyone else?

I can't remember why I joined, but I support the BMC primarily for the access work and guidebooks, and I think that frankly nobody operating in the Peak today can afford not to support the BMCs access work.

I am not mega happy about the BMCs involvement in comps though, which essentially promote climbing and may prove to cause long term access and sustainability issues themselves, although I understand most of this is probably the undesirable side of otherwise valuable sport england funding etc etc or something.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Dolly on January 14, 2017, 08:49:40 pm
Isn't the insurance story something along the lines of the premiums rocketed a few years back when professional chancer Bear Grylls demanded an arguably unnecessary helicopter rescue from Antarctica, and hence fucked it up for everyone else?

I can't remember why I joined, but I support the BMC primarily for the access work and guidebooks, and I think that frankly nobody operating in the Peak today can afford not to support the BMCs access work.

I am not mega happy about the BMCs involvement in comps though, which essentially promote climbing and may prove to cause long term access and sustainability issues themselves, although I understand most of this is probably the undesirable side of otherwise valuable sport england funding etc etc or something.


+1
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Drew on January 14, 2017, 10:26:42 pm
Think I first joined about 15 years ago to qualify for the (at the time) competitively priced insurance. Stayed a member for a couple of years utilising the discount in shops. It lapsed for a couple more years, but living in North Wales and seeing the work the BMC were doing in the local area (Bwlch y Moch for example), persuaded me to rejoin. I've been a member for 7 or 8 years on DD. I've also realised what the personal liability stuff is since rejoining, which also appeals just in case I kick a rock on someone's head at Millstone.

Whilst I don't see the BMC as being whiter than white, and could probably be far more efficient/cost-effective, I think they do a better job than anyone else out there so I'm happy to throw a small amount of money at them. I'm also keen to get more involved with the area meetings in the future, but living out in Doncaster with a wee bairn makes getting to the meetings more awkward of an evening.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: csl on January 15, 2017, 11:00:50 am
I just joined (again) because of this thread (Cheddar, access stuff)

Was affiliate member through a university club years ago but never signed up fully before.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Offwidth on January 15, 2017, 11:01:30 am
You mean actually join an organization that is prepared to employ Grimer?

An easy joke.   In fact Grimer is a kèy reason  I have done way more fòr the BMC more than just join. He sorted the guidebooks in a way that moved me from a slightly anti BMC stance to very pro BMC one. He recruited and 'perverted' me (and Moff). Because of what he does we have the current BMC guides guidebooks that do the job and sometimes approach art. A conventional  office worker appointment never could have acheived this.

He is not the only one, I already mentioned John and Dave. Martin Koscis and Henry Folkard  also had a massive influence as did several denizens of UKB, as access and guidebook volunteers and various BMC employees and national and local volunteer officers.

Shit... I'm past aqueducts and halfway through hot baths.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: nai on January 15, 2017, 12:59:43 pm
I just joined (again) because of this thread

Me too.

The arguments put forward make me realise how blinkered I have been.

Good to be able to select UKB as the source  :great:
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: andy popp on January 15, 2017, 02:53:31 pm
You mean actually join an organization that is prepared to employ Grimer?

An easy joke. 

Indeed, but just a joke for all that.

In fact, I'd meant to come back and post more seriously but didn't round to it. Grimer has undoubtedly done an incredible job revitalising BMC guidebook publication and having worked with him on the Cheshire guide I've had a little bit of insight into what that means in terms of the work he does.

But otherwise, I'm guilty as sin. I don't think I've ever been a member in the nearly 40 years I've been climbing ... and I don't have a good explanation as to why. I think it was a much lower profile organisation back then, I was barely aware of it. But the reality is I've never joined any climbing club in the way previous generations had done almost automatically as part of their apprenticeship. Somehow that was fading as part of climbing culture around the time I was getting started. I suppose I simply never got into the habit of joining. A pretty crappy excuse, I know.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on January 15, 2017, 03:06:45 pm
Shark has earned 1/6000th of his salary so far. Keep it up!
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 15, 2017, 04:35:25 pm
I just joined (again) because of this thread

Me too.

The arguments put forward make me realise how blinkered I have been.

Good to be able to select UKB as the source  :great:
Ha! Black cat everyone!
I not only re-joined, I went to the area meeting last night.

Where do I claim my prize?

(This may or may not be Simon's doing, other options exist).
🤡


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: webbo on January 15, 2017, 05:10:24 pm
Due to the recent influx of new members of doubtful character. I may have to resign.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Offwidth on January 15, 2017, 06:49:16 pm
=27760.msg542310#msg542310 date=1484414743]
You mean actually join an è that is prepared to employ Grimer?

But otherwise, I'm guilty as sin. I don't think I've ever been a member in the nearly 40 years I've been climbing ... and I don't have a good explanation as to why. I think it was a much lower profile organisation back then, I was barely aware of it. But the reality is I've never joined any climbing club in the way previous generations had done almost automatically as part of their apprenticeship. Somehow that was fading as part of climbing culture around the time I was getting started. I suppose I simply never got into the habit of joining. A pretty crappy excuse, I know.

In the end what matters is what you do overall for climbing. The BMC is just part of that even though I think it's easily worth it, especially at a time when they are buying crags to preserve access.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Iesu on January 16, 2017, 01:21:36 pm
Been a member consistently for a long time (since my early twenties I guess); originally for trip insurance, but came to realise the benefits of the liability insurance when buggering about in scrappy south wales quarries and challenged by landowners:"have you got inchewerance young man?".

I share some of the reservations about the BMC promoting comps and I feel it's still quite an old fuddy duddy sort of org. I have no exposure to their social media presence so my impression of them could well be caught in the past.

I do read the mag that comes through my letterbox but don't find it particularly relevant to anything i do. I agree that the recent leadership changes have improved things. The 'Climb Britain' thing totally passed me by (guess I missed that mag/announcement?).

I have often questioned the need for the recurring DD but at the end of the day it's a small annual fee for quite a lot of benefit as previously mentioned.

Interesting thread and I hope it encourages more folk to sign up to support the access work if nothing else.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Paul B on January 16, 2017, 01:30:08 pm
I originally joined when I was 18 for the insurance for my first foreign trips. I stayed partly for the insurance and partly to help fund the access stuff. Then I stopped using the insurance because
- it seemed to get more expensive
- I realised how many other (cheaper) providers would cover what I wanted to do
- they changed their trip limits so it's now crap for big trips

This is a bit of an issue IMO; it's now hard to get long climbing trip insurance which I'd hoped the BMC would try to offer in the future.

I joined because of the insurance but have stayed a member due to their access work, bolt-fund work etc. As per Dave, I'm not overly comfortable with the direction of the comp stuff but I trust the BMC to act in Climbings' best interest with this.

I visited the 'Climb Britain' Yorkshire BMC meet and it left me feeling like the orgnisation as a whole needed representation from the younger generation and as such I'll try my best to contribute.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: James Malloch on January 16, 2017, 01:39:58 pm
I've generally been a member since starting climbing in 2010/11 but the times I haven't been are generally due to my membership running out and then being a bit tight so only renewing when my next trip came around and I wanted to get insurance again.

Since I've been out of uni I've just been on the DD and will continue to renew annually. Though I believe the mountaineering club I have just joined provides me with membership so I may cancel the DD once I properly understand what I'm signed up for.

I've never really followed the work of the BMC and to be honest I've never really looked into it. However when threads such as this pop up I get a glimpse of the work regarding access etc etc which makes me want to continue my membership. Seems like a small amount to give for a large amount of benefit.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tommytwotone on January 16, 2017, 02:00:57 pm
Another signup from me - never been a member in 20 years of climbing for many reasons, mainly ignorance and inertia. Good thread.

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: galpinos on January 16, 2017, 04:12:39 pm
Like many, joined for the insurance, stayed for the good works. Both my wife and I are members.

Always intended to get more involved but have managed to find excuses up until now. Currently using the two kinds under 4 excuse.......
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: galpinos on January 16, 2017, 04:22:32 pm
Isn't the insurance story something along the lines of the premiums rocketed a few years back when professional chancer Bear Grylls demanded an arguably unnecessary helicopter rescue from Antarctica, and hence fucked it up for everyone else?

The rumour mill.......

http://lifeinthevertical.co.uk/blogs/blog/2009/07/12/bear-grylls-the-bmc-and-us/

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=442426

Dave Turnbull:
Quote
Large claims
Secondly, we’ve had several particularly large claims: a £210,000 bill for a rescue from Antarctica, a number of high-cost snowboarding claims from the USA and some big hits from accidents on cruise ships. These claims weren’t from our core members going climbing, hill walking or mountaineering, so we’ve addressed the issue by introducing a detailed questionnaire for polar region cover and increasing the policy loading on snowboarding from 35% to 50%. 
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Muenchener on January 16, 2017, 04:37:42 pm
Well, I'm not because I don't live in Britain. I am in the DAV though, and fairly active in the Munich section which is currently engaged in a major campaign to prevent the building of new ski lifts in a supposedly protected area of the Bavarian Alps so Go Us.

When I lived in Britain I was always a member of one BMC-affiliated club or another. I approved of access campaigning, Peak District guidebooks and the like in an abstract sense but tbh it was largely because I found cheap access to huts convenient. (Which come to think of it is also why I'm in the DAV now. Plus insurance plus reduced admission to some climbing walls)
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: duncan on January 16, 2017, 09:13:46 pm
I've been a member of the BMC since god-knows-when. As above, joined for insurance and stayed for the access work. I’m currently considering my membership (see below).

The BMC do excellent work keeping cliffs open and communicating effectively with some much more powerful interest groups. I applaud the efforts to broaden the church, if not making climbing generally more popular. The guidebooks are great, the social media activity is often well-done, Summit sometimes has good bits. In the latter two the relationship with the industry seems rather cosy (though I was amused to see the boss favours Decathlon (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1341118245961143&set=p.1341118245961143&type=3)). The breadth of work seems large for an organisation of it’s size, I might expand later but that’s not the focus of this post.

The recent media work has generally been very good, it’s resulted in some excellent films that might not otherwise have appeared. I note Jen Randall’s upcoming film about Andy Kirkpatrick “received generous support from BMC TV (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1558582611/psycho-vertical)”. At first sight, a great idea. Jen has produced some good and original work. Andy has an interesting persona and Psycho Vertical is considered a classic in the small world of climbing literature. To understand how bizarre the BMC’s choice is it helps to be one of Andy’s 10k Twitter followers (nearly as many as The Independent - credit bridbeast - so he’s reaching a good chunk of the climbing world). Andy has interesting and often well-thought-out ideas where he has direct personal experience: engineering his way up big cliffs, relationship difficulties. His ideas where has no direct experience are, erm, less well-thought-out. The most outlandish retweets - breitbart news - tend to get deleted in the morning. This still leaves recent gems implying the post-brexit rise in racist abuse is due to non-White people inventing stories and how it’s wrong to publicise the abuse women get out running because this will put women off exercising. He seems to think he’s just being contrarian, a role I’m sure he relishes, when challenged a common response is along the lines of  ‘I’m just putting it out there to see what people think’. Fucking bollocks he is, much of it is vile stuff sourced from some highly unreliable and nasty pieces of work.

Kirkpatrick's views are antithetical to what the BMC does. The BMC shouldn’t imply support by having anything to do with him. Over to you BMC.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on January 16, 2017, 10:04:44 pm
Fuck me, I stopped following AP on Twitter a couple of years back cos of some of the shite he was tweeting, seems like it's gone downhill from then even.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 16, 2017, 10:54:52 pm
Kirkpatrick's views are antithetical to what the BMC does. The BMC shouldn’t imply support by having anything to do with him. Over to you BMC.

[BMC hat is off]Tarka the Otter was written by a fascist. Would you refuse to read it on those grounds or judge within the context of the book on its own literary merits? Don Whillans was a wife beater - perhaps his name should be redacted from BMC guidebooks?[/BMC hat is off]

Not my dept guv  :shrug:




Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: seankenny on January 16, 2017, 11:11:32 pm
Kirkpatrick's views are antithetical to what the BMC does. The BMC shouldn’t imply support by having anything to do with him. Over to you BMC.

[BMC hat is off]Tarka the Otter was written by a fascist. Would you refuse to read it on those grounds or judge within the context of the book on its own literary merits? Don Whillans was a wife beater - perhaps his name should be redacted from BMC guidebooks?[/BMC hat is off]

Not my dept guv  :shrug:

The worst example, for me, of AKP's tweets was a link to a Canadian shock jock's YouTube channel where he railed against the new Star Wars movie (it shouldn't have a young woman in the lead role) and also about the new series of Black Mirror. Basically, too many black and Asian people in it. Perhaps a valid criticism of it was set in Orkney, but the three episodes I've seen were set in London and California. The show looked pretty representative of every time I step on the tube.

So yeah, the guy is basically saying "the problem with modern TV - too many blacks". And AKP decided that was something he wanted to promote to his followers.

This isn't about the past, this is about the present and the future. This is about what kind of public environment we want - and should our sporting body support someone who seems okay to say there are just too many brown people on TV?





Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Duma on January 16, 2017, 11:23:44 pm
What have your examples got to do with anything shark? No one's suggesting psycho vertical isn't a good book, or that we shouldn't recognise AKs routes.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: galpinos on January 17, 2017, 09:11:50 am
Wow, bit surprised to read all this about AKP. I don't 'follow' him on social media so my only exposure to him has been through his books and I've seen him speak, I even joined the kickstarter for the film, and what he's said/written didn't cross the line implied in the previous posts. I might have to do a bit of digging....
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: slackline on January 17, 2017, 09:32:11 am
I might have to do a bit of digging....

Start here... https://twitter.com/psychovertical
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 17, 2017, 10:04:14 am
Actually, I'm pretty pissed at the BG thing...
I used to organise and lead expeditions. The 1992 Antarctic exped I was 2i/c for had a budget of less than his rescue cost. Even allowing for the Joint Service nature of that one (transport to/from the ice was covered) a quick check shows a ~30% increase to cover the difference.
I mean, ffs, a major dive exped, including exotic gas supplies, chartering dive support vessels etc and into Iranian waters, in 2004; our budget (completed) was £300k (U533 exped).
I took William Hauge and Ffion to Greenland on their honeymoon, in Lord Ashcroft's yacht, in 2000. Cost $400k to charter the "Lady M" for two weeks. Total cost, including Helo trips, local guides, Jet ski hire, Dive guides etc etc etc, $800k. It doesn't get more luxurious than that bloody trip either!
(Imagine a ~100k voyage down the fjords just to get better satcom reception for a ten minute phone call).
BG= Wanker.


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Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 17, 2017, 10:26:49 am
Christ! Had no idea Hague was so rich he'd be blowing 800k on a holiday. I had that down as Saudi prince stuff.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: petejh on January 17, 2017, 11:45:54 am
Kirkpatrick's views are antithetical to what the BMC does. The BMC shouldn’t imply support by having anything to do with him. Over to you BMC.

Isn't he just an aid climber anyway? Not real climbing, sketchy rope access.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: petejh on January 17, 2017, 12:07:40 pm
I think I have BMC membership through being in the CC but am not entirely sure.

I'm generally supportive of the BMC and what they do, but see them as still an extremely Anglo-centric organisation. I don't understand the reasons or need for there to be splits between Scotland and Northern Ireland versus England/Wales. In the case of NI in my recent experience there seems to be a case for the BMC to oversee access issues and youth development because Mountaineering Ireland (the body covering both South and North) gives the impression to me of treating NI as a poor relation.

Regards access - I see the BMC as a force for good in general but more in terms of 'they do what they can with limited resources and they're all we have' rather than 'they do a first class job'.

BMC TV - a welcome alternative to more heavily commercialised content (especially 'female boulderer's' adverts for over-caffeinated sugary drink company).

Guidebooks - Love 'em. Grimer and the volunteer writers/researchers are doing a first class job and for me justify the membership fee almost alone. (If I paid it, which I don't).

Insurance - I'm not qualified to comment as I'm guilty of being 'that guy' who usually doesn't bother for trips.

Huts - The CC and other clubs have a great network of huts which is something/main thing that attracted me to the CC. The BMC don't seem t have much stake in running their own hut network (Roaches the only one?) but if the club-hut network ever started to suffer I could foresee this being a useful area for BMC assistance.

And finally the BMC support all sorts of good causes - they helped me and A.B. pay the costs of publishing NW Lime (which we fully repaid within months of release) as they have with various other 'good things'. Funding towards re-equipping the Ormes another one.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Mike Highbury on January 17, 2017, 12:21:59 pm
Kirkpatrick follows Philip Davies, FFS

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 17, 2017, 12:39:29 pm
Christ! Had no idea Hague was so rich he'd be blowing 800k on a holiday. I had that down as Saudi prince stuff.
It was a present. From someone else, for whom it was chump change and who was, in fact, my employer.


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Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Iesu on January 17, 2017, 12:52:45 pm
Christ! Had no idea Hague was so rich he'd be blowing 800k on a holiday. I had that down as Saudi prince stuff.
It was a present. From someone else, for whom it was chump change and who was, in fact, my employer.


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Makes me wonder whether that is/was the sort of thing disclosed in the record of Member's interests? Hague was Welsh Secretary at the time wasn't he? Was he as much of a bell-end in person as he came across as over the media?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on January 17, 2017, 01:09:31 pm
Kirkpatrick follows Philip Davies, FFS

So do I. He's my MP so it's good to be reminded what a twat he is at regular intervals to ensure that I vote against him at every opportunity.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 17, 2017, 01:23:04 pm
Ok. Way off topic. I'm fairly sure I was under an NDA, so in brief. The person in question was (is?) a Tory Grandee and officer of the Party. That person was my employer and may, or may not, have had to pay for the yacht. It was a "second" honeymoon, according to Ffion, something about number one being too official. Entertaining Tory shadow ministers was normal and I guess almost treated as Party business. That's what Mega-yachts are for.
I cannot comment on his character, but Ffion was great. She was up for ice diving, riding Wave runners through ice flows etc etc. Other people required a Helo after less than four hours trekking on the ice.

None of this is the BMC's fault. Though I wish Grimer had been there, because the Jam Crack would have been a classic.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Iesu on January 17, 2017, 01:27:44 pm

None of this is the BMC's fault. Though I wish Grimer had been there, because the Jam Crack would have been a classic.


As a fee paying Member, I take it as my right to blame them for whatever I damn well please! :tease:
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: jwi on January 17, 2017, 03:13:31 pm
(Regarding your question, because I'm a member of FFME)

 :off: I'm willing to excuse Ezra Pound's fascism on the strength of The Cantos, I'm less willing to excuse Kirkpatrick's on the strength of Psychovertical, which I found whiny, ill-written and self-indulgent.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: cheque on January 17, 2017, 03:20:24 pm
Yeah, I wasn't a fan of Psychovertical either. Even less of a fan of what I've just seen of his Twitter feed.  :wank:
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on January 17, 2017, 03:37:14 pm
Yeah, I wasn't a fan of Psychovertical either. Even less of a fan of what I've just seen of his Twitter feed.  :wank:

I've heard that Cheque's latest film is supported by BMC TV. Frankly I'm shocked that a helicopter was not provisioned. Furthermore, there were no professional stuntpersons used, so when you see people deck out in the film you're actually seeing real people getting hurt, not just expendable stunt minions.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Fiend on January 17, 2017, 04:02:54 pm
This is a genuine question directed mainly to non-members but also to members i.e. Did you join because of a direct benefit or requirement or out of general support for the (good) things it is doing?

Direct benefit - BMC travel insurance.

(Also happened to have the benefit of climbing at Cheddar but that definitely wasn't the intention)

Didn't join previously as I had other travel insurance.

Did previously sort-of generally support the good things it did by buying all the guidebooks (including 3 I was offered for free for participating but chose to purchase because they're ace - including using money I got for getting Western Grit Rockfax for free and immediately selling it unopened  ;D )
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tommytwotone on January 17, 2017, 04:40:59 pm
The person in question was (is?) a Tory Grandee and officer of the Party. That person was my employer and may, or may not, have had to pay for the yacht.


Called Michael Green by any chance? Looked quite a look like that Schapps fella?


Heard he's got some guaranteed ways of making loads of dosh online.

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: fatneck on January 18, 2017, 12:57:27 pm
Was a member for years but cancelled the DD when dealing with a few debt issues and never got back round to renewing. Just renewed as Ian said - nice to be able to cite UKB as a contributing factor in my decision (although not really where i heard about the BMC?)...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: ashtond6 on January 19, 2017, 12:20:04 am
Member via cc but wouldn't join on its own.

I think it's pretty old fashioned in its mentality
I disagree with the comps in a big way
I don't even get an insurance quote anymore as its been a rip off for at least 5 years
Guidebooks seem to be for areas with 184832 guidebooks already
Area meets are unproductive and discuss fence posts and farmers rather than access in my experience
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 19, 2017, 07:55:00 am
Was a member for years but cancelled the DD when dealing with a few debt issues and never got back round to renewing. Just renewed as Ian said - nice to be able to cite UKB as a contributing factor in my decision (although not really where i heard about the BMC?)...

Nice one  ;D

Might be good for us to include an additional question of what prompted joining in addition to where you heard about the BMC
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on January 19, 2017, 08:18:05 am
Member via cc but wouldn't join on its own.

I think it's pretty old fashioned in its mentality
I disagree with the comps in a big way
I don't even get an insurance quote anymore as its been a rip off for at least 5 years
Guidebooks seem to be for areas with 184832 guidebooks already
Area meets are unproductive and discuss fence posts and farmers rather than access in my experience

Out of interest, could you describe why you think it's old fashioned?

I can't think of any BMC guidebooks that cover an area that already has a definitive guide. Can you enlighten us which areas you mean?

If an area meet discusses a farmer's fence, it is very likely to be an access issue!
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on January 19, 2017, 08:26:39 am
I think it's pretty old fashioned in its mentality

I disagree with the comps in a big way 

Fair enough, but it does kind of contradict the first point above.

Guidebooks seem to be for areas with 184832 guidebooks already

Give us an example? Unless I have missed something BMC has extremely well received guides out to the Peak (where the BMC is the sole publisher of definitive guides), Lancashire (again, no other definitive guide exist?) and Cheshire Sandstone (ditto? I'm guessing). Wouldn't really be able to spread to other areas without treading on the toes of regional producers, YMC, CC, NMC etc I would have thought.

Area meets are unproductive and discuss fence posts and farmers rather than access in my experience

Which ones have been going to, and when?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 19, 2017, 08:42:40 am
I spent an evening chatting about re-purposing now defunct qarries, through planning permission as climbing venues. Discussing the possibility of getting Quarry operators to do a more climbing friendly final blast before shutting down, to creat new opportunity elsewhere. Along with a few minutes on the subject of an old codger who keeps removing belay stakes from a decent path at A.N.Other crag, because he views it as fixed equipment (decent path, not route!)
Now given the average age in that room, the fact that the old codger was considered "old" suggests to me that he won't be an issue much longer and that the organisation is probably not that "old-fashioned".
Talked about comps too, YCS in particular, a lot of the older attendees were the most supportive.
Hey ho, takes many to mow.



All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Duncan campbell on January 19, 2017, 09:39:55 am
Member via cc but wouldn't join on its own.

I think it's pretty old fashioned in its mentality

But you joined the CC!?!?

Regarding comps, I agree they aren't what climbing about to me. But they are here to stay. Better that the BMC is relevant in the sphere that the government will take note of when the olympics roll round than let some comp climbing committee who don't do any access work?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: slackline on January 19, 2017, 09:53:07 am
Regarding comps, I agree they aren't what climbing about to me. But they are here to stay. Better that the BMC is relevant in the sphere that the government will take note of when the olympics roll round than let some comp climbing committee who don't do any access work?

I can't see the connection between obtaining whatever government funding is available to get people to a competition on the other side of the world and access issues in the UK beyond being aware of the organisation, the BMC in this case, existence.  If canvassing for cash to support athletes to attend and compete in a sporting event it would dilute if the message if local access issues were mentioned at the same time (e.g. "Why the fuck are they banging on about coastal regions when they're seeking cash to go to the Olympics?"), and besides access campaigning and local access negotiations have been going on for a long time before competitions came along and were a priority for the BMC.


I'm a BMC member, joined for insurance and for the access work.  I remain for the later as the former is no longer competitive.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: petejh on January 19, 2017, 10:55:51 am
I agree with this^ and think it would make sense to have a separate body overseeing all things competition and funding thereof. UK Climbing.
And people at the BMC wonder why their proposed name change got linked in this way?! Lunacy.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Fiend on January 19, 2017, 11:19:27 am
Guidebooks seem to be for areas with 184832 guidebooks already
Even if that were the case, you've got it arse-over-tit. Where there have been multiple guides to an area, usually the BMC guides were the original guides to the area before more commercial guides tried to cash in on the popularity of the areas and duplicate existing guides. And where the BMC guides have come out subsequently, they have invariably been of higher quality as well as covering all the valuable non-honeypots the big selective guides miss (also playing a role in access by spreading the load, investigating access issues as part of the process, etc).
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on January 19, 2017, 12:13:36 pm
Regarding comps, I agree they aren't what climbing about to me. But they are here to stay. Better that the BMC is relevant in the sphere that the government will take note of when the olympics roll round than let some comp climbing committee who don't do any access work?

I can't see the connection between obtaining whatever government funding is available to get people to a competition on the other side of the world and access issues in the UK beyond being aware of the organisation, the BMC in this case, existence.  If canvassing for cash to support athletes to attend and compete in a sporting event it would dilute if the message if local access issues were mentioned at the same time (e.g. "Why the fuck are they banging on about coastal regions when they're seeking cash to go to the Olympics?"), and besides access campaigning and local access negotiations have been going on for a long time before competitions came along and were a priority for the BMC.


I'm a BMC member, joined for insurance and for the access work.  I remain for the later as the former is no longer competitive.

With regards access, the BMC trades on its influence and how it is perceived by the public who come into contact with it. Competition climbing, is soon to become the thing that the layperson thinks of when you say "climbing" to them. If the organisation splits then there's a real risk that the access work will suffer as, in the eyes of a layperson, British Climbing or Climb Britain or whatever (the hypothetical governing body of the comps) becomes the principal organisation of note and influence, and the BMC is perceived as a gaggle of moaners who can easily be ignored.

I don't give a crap about comps but I think that all climbers (or hill walkers for that matter), whatever their bag, should be united under one representative body. I didn't used to think this. What changed my mind was the realisation that the BMC could take on a wider brief and still carry on delivering on all fronts. If they were sacrificing other work in order to focus on comps/hill walking etc, I'd be opposed to the broadened scope of the organisation.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: danm on January 19, 2017, 12:19:10 pm
Great thread Shark, some really interesting stuff is coming out here.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: slackline on January 19, 2017, 12:41:50 pm
With regards access, the BMC trades on its influence and how it is perceived by the public who come into contact with it. Competition climbing, is soon to become the thing that the layperson thinks of when you say "climbing" to them. If the organisation splits then there's a real risk that the access work will suffer as, in the eyes of a layperson, British Climbing or Climb Britain or whatever (the hypothetical governing body of the comps) becomes the principal organisation of note and influence, and the BMC is perceived as a gaggle of moaners who can easily be ignored.
[/quote]

When you refer to 'lay person' do you mean joe public who has never climbed, has no intention to and no interest or do you mean someone in a position to influence the flow of money towards supporting climbing competitions and/or access issues but has no direct experience or involvement?

I'm not convinced that the BMCs perception by the public is that relevant since the amount of funding the BMC receive has been pretty small  e.g. £1,287,850 over 2009-20012 (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/sport-england-funding-success-for-bmc), strange that it states this is for "grass roots mountaineering" and the includes competitions under that umbrella, maybe they should have also mentioned "conquering" mountains.  Don't have time to dig up more but the article states its a 61% increase on the last four year cycle.  Anyway, I don't think this amount is massively influenced by the lay/general publics perception of climbing, what is more likely to influence it is the number of BMC members when the applications are submitted along the lines of "Look our membership has increased by 35% in the last four years and now stands in excess of XX hundred thousand, any chance of a bit more cash this time round please."  That in itself can be misleading given the number of people who seem to have no interest in competition (albeit based on a very small and likely biased sample).  I doubt there are many lay people who go around actively trying to prevent the BMC from obtaining government funding.

If some sort  of split did come about the perception of any two resulting bodies would hinge primarily on their activities and conduct subsequent to the split, i.e. how they go about campaigning and trying to effect change rather than a default position of "this body supports competitive climbing at international events and is therefore good, whilst this group over hear all they do is moan about not having access to grotty sea-cliffs, disused quarries, bleak moorland and unusable upland hils/mountains and are therefore bad".  There are other bodies/associations who campaign to maintain access to land such as The Ramblers Association (http://www.ramblers.org.uk/get-involved/become-a-member/how-your-membership-helps.aspx), they don't as far as I'm aware have a competition agenda but are no doubt at risk of being perceived as a group of 'moaners' for wishing to preserve access to the countryside.


I don't give a crap about comps but I think that all climbers (or hill walkers for that matter), whatever their bag, should be united under one representative body. I didn't used to think this. What changed my mind was the realisation that the BMC could take on a wider brief and still carry on delivering on all fronts. If they were sacrificing other work in order to focus on comps/hill walking etc, I'd be opposed to the broadened scope of the organisation.

Perhaps some data to enlighten us as to whether the rise of support of competitions or hill walking has diverted time/money/effort from the other more traditional areas of activity?  The 2015 annual report (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/2015-bmc-annual-report-now-online), would need to collate a good few years worth though to get this picture and I've not time to do it.

I think if "churches" are too broad they can be at risk of losing their focus by being a jack of all trades and master of none, pretty much most things are constrained by time/money.  However, if the aim is to unite, then why not also work towards unifying The BMC, SMC and Mounaineering Ireland (who cover Northern Ireland)?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 19, 2017, 01:16:15 pm
This isn't so much an internal issue as one created by external forces.

Sport England will only give money to a sport's governing body, and they require the sport use it to increase participation and elite performance in competition.

This is in fairly direct conflict with the original aim of the BMC which is to not govern but be a representative body, guided by their membership. Climbing/ hillwalking is unusual as it is more of a pastime than a sport, with indoor competition being viewed as no more than a sideshow by most participants. That membership has also traditionally been happy to let participation grow organically.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: danm on January 19, 2017, 02:01:49 pm
A huge number of climbers come into the sport from the comp and indoor scene, ,to me it seems very artificial to split that from the outdoor side. In many ways, walls are the new clubs, it's where we make friends, see our mates and plan weekends away. Although I have no personal interest in comps, I love the psyche and the cross-over. On a pragmatic side, climbing will become more popular with or without the BMC because it's fucking ace, at least some of those new people are more likely to listen to access info from a body they've heard of because they run the Olympic team. That's my take anyway.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on January 19, 2017, 02:56:55 pm
I haven't really got time to respond in great deal, Slacks, but my point wasn't made with regard to money. It was more about influencing landowners.

If some sort  of split did come about the perception of any two resulting bodies would hinge primarily on their activities and conduct subsequent to the split, i.e. how they go about campaigning and trying to effect change rather than a default position of "this body supports competitive climbing at international events and is therefore good, whilst this group over hear all they do is moan about not having access to grotty sea-cliffs, disused quarries, bleak moorland and unusable upland hils/mountains and are therefore bad".

Actually I think you've got this wrong. The unique SlackBot algorithm will think like this but, frustratingly, other people do not. Normal folk (I think) will not bother to separate out the different activities that an organisation carries out and judge them each on their merits - that would require more than 3 seconds thought. People will see Shauna getting gold (and people will watch, believe me, and Shauna will be everywhere and people will listen to her, enraptured. You've seen it with other Olympians whose sports the general public don't know anything about. Adams, Brownlees, Skelton, Yarnold), and the commentator will say "now let's go to Such-and-Such from the BMC for their take on things", or Shauna will thank the BMC for supporting her through her comp career. It will improve the BMC's "brand", people will hold the organisation in higher regard, and this will transfer over the access work.

Plus what Dan said.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: petejh on January 19, 2017, 03:04:53 pm
I've been trying to think of a similar pasttime with links to olympic sport as well as an access agenda in the background. I suppose British Canoeing (formerly the BCU) have a similar though smaller agenda. Responsible for access work for weekend-warriors on the rivers, overseeing Olympic participation/representation/funding/training.
Seems to work for them?

Still seems like an obvious split to me. But Will's points make sense.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: slackline on January 19, 2017, 03:21:39 pm
I've no idea who those Olympians are you refer to (since I don't watch the Olympics or any sports beyond snooker which many would argue isn't a sport).

[DELETED LONG REPLY]

I don't care at all about competitions to continue vague conjecturing so bow out of this discussion/thread.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 19, 2017, 03:55:57 pm
A few points with respect to comps and the antipathy expressed by dave, dolly, iesu, PaulB and ashton6.

The BMC represent climbers and hill walkers reflecting an increasingly fragmented sport which is a good thing from a choice of activities but makes for a more complex membership which is almost certainly less homogenous than it once was in views and outlooks. In response the BMC is trying to recognise and communicate and provide services to the different groups in a way tailored to their different needs. We are at an early stage with initiatives like this. But ultimately 80% of revenue is from membership fees so the more members the more we are able to do - an indoor climbers memebership fees help support the access and conservation cause as much as a dave or a PaulB.

More specifically the comp climbing side runs to a large extent on specific Sport England grant income and the budget is small compared to access and conservation - just look at the staff list. The reason we or rather Rob can manage to run a heavy schedule of comps on not much money is because of the massive goodwill and efforts of volunteers and walls who help run and support these events.  :2thumbsup:

So for those against comps you should realise that membership income by and large is heading in other directions and hopefully will stand even more on its own feet if I am able to secure outside sponsorship. The outside money we are also looking to generate will also be directed towards the teams (about 80 athletes and 20 support staff) most of whom currently have to largely pay their own travel and expenses to compete internationally.   

I appreciate that you might be against comps on ethical rather than just money grounds. The same was the case against sport climbing and bolting in the 90's. Fashions and outlooks change. There might be a few perceptions changed if a Shauna, William, Jim, Molly, Aiden etc get a podium place in 2020. 
 
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 19, 2017, 04:28:50 pm
Ive just been pointed to the Membership Survey from 2010 (http://file://thebmc.local/bmc-dfs/homedocs/Simon/Desktop/BMC%20Membership%20Report%20FINAL.pdf) (one for you to disect Slackers) and the lowest priority work programme for respondents was comps and the British Team
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Iesu on January 19, 2017, 04:37:31 pm
I'm pretty sure i didn't express antipathy towards comps and didn't intend to give that impression. It's more that comps have absolutely nothing to do with my life and I *hate* climbing indoors in general.

For me it's more that I share some of the concerns about increasing load on honeypot areas from the unwashed masses coming into the "sport" via indoor climbing (full disclosure: as a youngster much of my early exposure to climbing was indoors).

I have an internal grumble (gas?) regarding the increasing prevalence of incredibly unsightly donkey marks all over honeypot crags being the result of "indoor climbers" venturing outside and having a different attitude to the rock (i.e. less respectful). Call me a grumpy old codger. The plastering received by places like Almscliffe is pretty bad and to the casual observer casts climbers in a pretty bad light i would say.

I totally take on board the comments about growing the BMC's membership base and hence funding. I thought JB's comment about the inherent conflict in the dual role was particularly interesting.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 19, 2017, 04:51:49 pm
I'm pretty sure i didn't express antipathy towards comps and didn't intend to give that impression. It's more that comps have absolutely nothing to do with my life and I *hate* climbing indoors in general.[/url]

Yeah sorry - antipathy a little strong what you was this:

I share some of the reservations about the BMC promoting comps

Call me a grumpy old codger.

You're a grumpy old codger  ;)
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Iesu on January 19, 2017, 04:56:49 pm
Should have added that I agree with whoever said "if not the BMC then who?" in terms of there needing to be some kind of participant representative body.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on January 19, 2017, 05:32:21 pm
I'm pretty sure i didn't express antipathy towards comps and didn't intend to give that impression. It's more that comps have absolutely nothing to do with my life and I *hate* climbing indoors in general.

For me it's more that I share some of the concerns about increasing load on honeypot areas from the unwashed masses coming into the "sport" via indoor climbing (full disclosure: as a youngster much of my early exposure to climbing was indoors).

I have an internal grumble (gas?) regarding the increasing prevalence of incredibly unsightly donkey marks all over honeypot crags being the result of "indoor climbers" venturing outside and having a different attitude to the rock (i.e. less respectful). Call me a grumpy old codger. The plastering received by places like Almscliffe is pretty bad and to the casual observer casts climbers in a pretty bad light i would say.

I totally take on board the comments about growing the BMC's membership base and hence funding. I thought JB's comment about the inherent conflict in the dual role was particularly interesting.

+1

I also didn't express antipathy, rather that I worry that increased uptake in climbing via comps won't prove to pay for itself in the longterm in terms of increased pressures on outdoor crags, both access and erosion etc.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Iesu on January 19, 2017, 05:34:41 pm
It's just like Brexit isn't it? As in, we won't know what sort of outcome we've set ourselves up for for at least a generation if not more  :chair:
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: nai on January 19, 2017, 05:57:35 pm

For me it's more that I share some of the concerns about increasing load on honeypot areas from the unwashed masses coming into the "sport" via indoor climbing
 "indoor climbers" venturing outside and having a different attitude to the rock (i.e. less respectful).

Remember reading stuff like this in mags 30-odd years ago and scoffing at those beardy old men with their ridiculous notions.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 19, 2017, 06:15:37 pm
You know, I think there's just more people. As in the pressure on outdoor venues is a function of increased population overall rather than climbing walls.
I dare say it's a bit of both, but I wonder if the percentage of the overall population, who head out into the hills has changed much from 30 years ago?
Most people who come into the wall never venture into the wild. Those that do, I feel, already did (in other activities, like Kayaking etc) or would have anyway. As in, they were looking for a way into climbing and coming to a wall was the obvious route. Had there been no wall, they would have joined a club or similar; they were coming anyway.

As regards comps, most newbies have never heard of them. Very few of the kids/youth who "comp" with us climb outdoors (some, of course, but less than you'd think). Very, very few adults compete at all, except "fun" comps.
On the other hand, there are far too many lads with Shauna posters on there bedroom walls...

A split is needed. A sub-division, better. Because the BMC's influence is needed for the next generation and their attitude to the outside etc; but better service of their needs and aspiration as athletes is also important and without the club system support (as other sports have, such as your local Olympic Gymnastics club etc), the BMC is the logical source for that support.

If anyone is interested in that split, I'd volunteer, by the way.


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Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 19, 2017, 06:22:42 pm
Just for clarity, I absolutely don't support a split.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 19, 2017, 06:41:48 pm
I also didn't express antipathy

Sorry again  :spank:

Quote
rather that I worry that increased uptake in climbing via comps won't prove to pay for itself in the longterm in terms of increased pressures on outdoor crags, both access and erosion etc.

Talking to Steve Dunning at the Depot a lot of the newcomers seemed surprised that a. people climbed outside b. would want to and c. would travel the world to do so.

The general reports I am getting is that the crags are getting less busy

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: petejh on January 19, 2017, 06:47:11 pm
Talking to Steve Dunning at the Depot a lot of the newcomers seemed surprised that a. people climbed outside b. would want to and c. would travel the world to do so.

Marketing manager for The Depot now as well? Good tag line!
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on January 19, 2017, 06:47:32 pm
Less people chuffing but more bouldering (both outside) imho..
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on January 19, 2017, 06:59:26 pm
Hmm maybe Shark has a point, I mean numbers of people climbing at CragX has been in decline steadily since summer.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Duncan campbell on January 19, 2017, 07:06:59 pm
A huge number of climbers come into the sport from the comp and indoor scene, ,to me it seems very artificial to split that from the outdoor side. In many ways, walls are the new clubs, it's where we make friends, see our mates and plan weekends away. Although I have no personal interest in comps, I love the psyche and the cross-over. On a pragmatic side, climbing will become more popular with or without the BMC because it's fucking ace, at least some of those new people are more likely to listen to access info from a body they've heard of because they run the Olympic team. That's my take anyway.

When I said what I said it was with What Will and Dan have said. Nowt to do with money but more to do with British climbing's face and who people who have seen climbing on the telly will then go to if they have an access gripe?

Plus, although I'm not into comps doesn't mean it shouldn't be supported if other people are into them. Climbings a broad church innit.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Muenchener on January 19, 2017, 07:22:40 pm
The general reports I am getting is that the crags are getting less busy

Sport crags with easy routes over here are generally seething anthills
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 19, 2017, 07:31:48 pm
Just for clarity, I absolutely don't support a split.

To continue, after the ipad was snatched away from me...

I think it would weaken both sides to separate. However I do think they need to recruit one or two people who are really passionate about the indoor and comp scene. The impression I get is that there are an amazing number of passionate 'real' climbers working there (to be applauded), but no one who really cares about comps. Back when the team was struggling to fund travel a PR firm was used to seek sponsorship - only to find that with major sponsors interested the office was not replying to their emails.

Nothing against re-branding a sub-division as, ooh, Climb Uk or something like that, but I think all under one banner would be better.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 19, 2017, 08:58:59 pm
Hmm maybe Shark has a point, I mean numbers of people climbing at CragX has been in decline steadily since summer.

Sod's law that its actually dry too
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: mikenty on January 19, 2017, 09:36:30 pm
Like many I was an occasional BMC member for when I needed insurance. But following their work in saving and purchasing Craig Y Longridge 10 years ago my membership has been on direct debit and will continue to be so. The small crag would have been a massive loss to many local climbers.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: ashtond6 on January 20, 2017, 01:07:21 am
Lots of questions to my post - will reply Saturday when I have more time.  (My post was probably poorly thought through as quite busy)
Probably wrong about the guidebook areas already saturated, however we don't require bmc membership for detailed guidebooks
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: highrepute on January 20, 2017, 10:32:42 am
Lots of questions to my post - will reply Saturday when I have more time.  (My post was probably poorly thought through as quite busy)
Probably wrong about the guidebook areas already saturated, however we don't require bmc membership for detailed guidebooks

I thought your post was good. A few people I know share similar views and I'm sure many more also share those views.

Whether they are right or wrong is beside the point. They are genuine barriers to people becoming BMC members.

The BMC peak limestone guide did come out after the rockfax peak lime guide and probably seemed a bit pointless to many people who already had the rockfax one.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: nai on January 20, 2017, 12:27:14 pm
The worst thing about that was not knowing when the BMC guide might land once it has gone overdue. No way was I buying the right cock (good work autospell) but was completely in the dark until suddenly it was there. Likewise, I've tried contacting them via different channels about when the southern guide (scheduled for autumn 2016) might be out but received no response.

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Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tommytwotone on January 20, 2017, 03:05:00 pm
And also of course there's the decision to use V grades for bouldering in the guides.


 :worms:
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Steamboat Stello on January 20, 2017, 03:50:41 pm
Quote

Talking to Steve Dunning at the Depot a lot of the newcomers seemed surprised that a. people climbed outside b. would want to and c. would travel the world to do so.

The general reports I am getting is that the crags are getting less busy


Find these genereal reports very interesting, have never heard anybody ever say crags are getting less busy!

I would be in the group expressing general concern on the rise of comps if it was the case that this correlated with a significant increase in over-crowding (and hence likely damage/erosion, access issues etc) of outdoor venues. If this was shown to be the case I would be unhappy with my BMC contribution playing a part in funding comps even if they are only a minor part of BMC budgets.

Let's chip in a tenner each and have someone do this as a Masters project!  :smartass: 
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on January 20, 2017, 04:09:34 pm
I firmly believe that the issue is not one of too many climbers, but one of too great a density of climbers.

There are empty crags out there rotting and mouldering away. Guisecliff, Eavestone, half of Borrowdale, etc etc etc. Even parts of the popular crags like Caley. These places need traffic. People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: T_B on January 20, 2017, 04:17:58 pm
I've been climbing nearly 30 years, all styles, all over the place. I climb indoors way more than outdoors and can't imagine nowadays why anyone who starts bouldering indoors would bother going outside. Apart from the obvious honeypots that are admittedly getting thoroughly trashed (i.e. the Plantation) I'm not too worried about the crags getting over-crowded.

In a few years time we'll all be doing some form of parkour-meets bouldering in a massive hanger in the Don Valley. Or a climbing version of those phone apps that allow cyclists to train in the garage in front of a widescreen TV as part of a peloton. Maybe.

It's only a matter of time before someone builds a replica of a famous route/boulder indoors, with an app to go with it for sharing beta etc.

The future of British climbing is indoors. What it lacks (other than the Schoolroom) is set problems/routes that never change, that would be as memorable a 'tick' as if it were an outdoor climb.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Steamboat Stello on January 20, 2017, 05:14:58 pm
People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.

Agree with spreading out more but is it really the case with "the youth"? I am way out of touch but are you making a genuine point regarding popularity of climbs on social media or just generally meaning folks won't climb something that isn't seen as cool? I don't use Instagram or any social media really so am not exposed to this type of culture. From my perspective I see it more as an ease of access issue rather than fashion and I can understand why you might not want to walk 30 min and spend hours brushing something when you can climb something equally good 1 min from the road. This is no way reflects my attitude, I love a bit of esoterica (I've been many times to Bovey Woods if that is a good indicator for you!), but I can see why others might not want to do that and I'm not sure how they can or should be encouraged otherwise.  But we stray off-topic! 
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: SA Chris on January 20, 2017, 05:47:39 pm
Quote
Why aren't you a BMC member

You're just a member.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on January 20, 2017, 06:01:18 pm
Quote
I would be unhappy with my BMC contribution playing a part in funding comps even if they are only a minor part of BMC budgets.

As I understand it, the reality is quite the opposite. It is only by supporting comps that gives the BMC access to significant goverment funding. Your subs do not fund comps.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Iesu on January 20, 2017, 06:32:49 pm
Some great points being made here on all sides.

My point about "respect for the outdoors" is allied to a general feeling that this is diminishing across the board. Just like lots of other parts of "culture" that are in flux (as they always are of course).

I'm not sure how you "test" an appropriate level of respect, but the levels of defiling of subjectively beautiful (to climber and casual observer alike) bits of rock with chalk is what I find disturbing.

I've often been tempted to apply water to roof problems that don't get any rain and are caked up with chalk.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: abarro81 on January 20, 2017, 06:38:32 pm
People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.
[\quote]

Going to popular crags and on popular routes/boulders has very little to do with instagram or social media. When I started climbing ~11 years ago I wanted to go and climb the most classic routes on the most classic crags. Sure I climbed on local crappy rarely done stuff too, but only because it was more convenient than getting to the Cromlech or Pembroke (and mostly because it was more convenient than going to the wall since I lived closer to Avon gorge than the climbing wall). New climbers will always be more excited to go to the classic spots than anywhere else. The first real time I went to the peak I went to plantation. Of course I did, I wanted to do Archangel, White Wand, Crescent Arete... you can blame that on the mags and the videos I guess, but there's always been something making things popular, whether it's instagram, Dosage, On The Edge or presumably word of mouth back before any of that shit.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: SA Chris on January 21, 2017, 07:22:03 am
Or glossy guidebooks with lovely photos and star ratings...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: chris j on January 21, 2017, 10:18:55 am
The general reports I am getting is that the crags are getting less busy

Sport crags with easy routes over here are generally seething anthills

That's a very specific category, and probably true here as well though I've not been to Portland for a while to find out. Down in my part of the world my only recent outdoor climbing (due to babies...) have been the local trad honeypots of Dewerstone and Chudleigh, on autumn weekends, and I would say both had about 1/4 of the number of climbers as I recall say 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: nai on January 21, 2017, 10:47:22 am
The general reports I am getting is that the crags are getting less busy

Sport crags with easy routes over here are generally seething anthills

That's a very specific category, and probably true here as well though I've not been to Portland for a while to find out.

A look at the crags with most logged routes on tother channel tells you all you need to know, lots of easy sport venues making the list:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/graphs.html#top20crags
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Offwidth on January 21, 2017, 05:05:43 pm
Or glossy guidebooks with lovely photos and star ratings...
[/quote

I just don't believe this increases honeypotting. The Tremadoc definitive experimented with no stars and people purchased other guides and climbed the classics anyhow, things got slightly worse.  Will is right... many great climbs and some great crags are just not getting the traffic they deserve from the quality shown in the guidebooks. The latest YMC grit guides are the best I've ever seen to encourage people to explore.

Where I think Will is wrong is instagram... it may have an effect but not every young climber is a social clone.  I'd add on a point made elsewhere: the trashing of problems at Plantation, Cratcliffe and Burb South happened a decade before the current young generation existed. Wire brushes and overbrushing were favoured by too many. If anything things seem to have got better better behaved on the over-brushing front. Chalk overuse seems the same if not worse. Honeypotting is worse.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on January 21, 2017, 05:35:47 pm
Ditto the comment on the stars in guides. If you take stars out, as some guides have tried, everyone just sticks to the classics anyway as everyone already knows which they are through photos, reputation, old guides, mags etc. Without stars to judge on everyone tends to play it safe and stick to classics.

The job of guide stars these days is to alert folk to decent stuff they might not already know about, new crags, hidden gems etc. Also knackered/overused "classics" can be down-starred.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Paul B on January 21, 2017, 05:38:19 pm
I firmly believe that the issue is not one of too many climbers, but one of too great a density of climbers.

There are empty crags out there rotting and mouldering away. Guisecliff, Eavestone, half of Borrowdale, etc etc etc. Even parts of the popular crags like Caley. These places need traffic. People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.

Didn't we discuss this previously when you said similar at the Yorkshire ("Climb Britain") BMC Meet? The same arguments still stand.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: nai on January 21, 2017, 06:06:15 pm
I quite like select guides having no stars but definitives should hand them out willy-nilly.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Drew on January 21, 2017, 08:08:42 pm
People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.

Going to popular crags and on popular routes/boulders has very little to do with instagram or social media. When I started climbing ~11 years ago I wanted to go and climb the most classic routes on the most classic crags. Sure I climbed on local crappy rarely done stuff too, but only because it was more convenient than getting to the Cromlech or Pembroke (and mostly because it was more convenient than going to the wall since I lived closer to Avon gorge than the climbing wall). New climbers will always be more excited to go to the classic spots than anywhere else. The first real time I went to the peak I went to plantation. Of course I did, I wanted to do Archangel, White Wand, Crescent Arete... you can blame that on the mags and the videos I guess, but there's always been something making things popular, whether it's instagram, Dosage, On The Edge or presumably word of mouth back before any of that shit.

I would add to this

1. I imagine many of us are guilty of searching Youtube for videos of certain problems when struggling to work out suitable beta. Take this to the next level and I imagine that for many, especially when time is limited, people pick problems to attempt based on the videos they have seen, and determining which problems will suit their strengths.

2. These days we are spoilt for choice of good quality training facilities, and not just for the special few who could access the School Room, but anyone who has a wall membership. So rather than getting stronger by climbing everything you can do outside, isn't it a given that it's quicker and more efficient to get stronger inside, and go out to climb a few high quality problems, which we know to be quality because all the media tells us so?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on January 26, 2017, 06:41:54 am
People need to spread out more, yet it is deeply unfashionable now amongst the young to climb something that has not had the requisite quantity of likes on Instagram.

Going to popular crags and on popular routes/boulders has very little to do with instagram or social media. When I started climbing ~11 years ago I wanted to go and climb the most classic routes on the most classic crags. Sure I climbed on local crappy rarely done stuff too, but only because it was more convenient than getting to the Cromlech or Pembroke (and mostly because it was more convenient than going to the wall since I lived closer to Avon gorge than the climbing wall). New climbers will always be more excited to go to the classic spots than anywhere else. The first real time I went to the peak I went to plantation. Of course I did, I wanted to do Archangel, White Wand, Crescent Arete... you can blame that on the mags and the videos I guess, but there's always been something making things popular, whether it's instagram, Dosage, On The Edge or presumably word of mouth back before any of that shit.

I would add to this

1. I imagine many of us are guilty of searching Youtube for videos of certain problems when struggling to work out suitable beta. Take this to the next level and I imagine that for many, especially when time is limited, people pick problems to attempt based on the videos they have seen, and determining which problems will suit their strengths.

2. These days we are spoilt for choice of good quality training facilities, and not just for the special few who could access the School Room, but anyone who has a wall membership. So rather than getting stronger by climbing everything you can do outside, isn't it a given that it's quicker and more efficient to get stronger inside, and go out to climb a few high quality problems, which we know to be quality because all the media tells us so?

True - but vids also draw people to obscure problems that get re-publicised etc...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: gme on January 26, 2017, 09:43:49 am
I've been climbing nearly 30 years, all styles, all over the place. I climb indoors way more than outdoors and can't imagine nowadays why anyone who starts bouldering indoors would bother going outside. Apart from the obvious honeypots that are admittedly getting thoroughly trashed (i.e. the Plantation) I'm not too worried about the crags getting over-crowded.

In a few years time we'll all be doing some form of parkour-meets bouldering in a massive hanger in the Don Valley. Or a climbing version of those phone apps that allow cyclists to train in the garage in front of a widescreen TV as part of a peloton. Maybe.

It's only a matter of time before someone builds a replica of a famous route/boulder indoors, with an app to go with it for sharing beta etc.

The future of British climbing is indoors. What it lacks (other than the Schoolroom) is set problems/routes that never change, that would be as memorable a 'tick' as if it were an outdoor climb.

I couldn't agree with this more. I have climbed in the county for over thirty years and have seen a steady decline in the number of people at the crags in pretty much a direct correlation to the number of walls. Kyloe in and bowden used to have 30+ people on them on good days in the 80s now its a handful at most and if you go off the beaten track you will be surprised to see another party. Places like Bowden got trashed very quickly due to the repeated tries nature of bouldering not due to loads more people going to the crag.

Everyone things Malham and Kilnsey are busy now but you should have seen them in the late 80s (malham) early 90s (kilnsey). I went to borrowdale this year for the 1st time in 20 years and was blown away that there was no one climbing. Shepherds and Falcon used to have queues for the popular routes.

Indoor climbing and comps are the big growth factor for our sport and will only become more so. It would be ludicrous for it not to be part of the BMC and i think they need to go much further in support of this. The money gained form encouraging the indoor climbers to join can then support the writing of esoteric guides.



The future growth of climbing has to be seen as indoors and i dont see why
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: lukeyboy on January 26, 2017, 01:17:50 pm
Joined for the Cheddar access stuff. I know I should have anyway, but that was what gave me the nudge.

Ditto
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: gme on January 26, 2017, 02:04:44 pm
I've been climbing nearly 30 years, all styles, all over the place. I climb indoors way more than outdoors and can't imagine nowadays why anyone who starts bouldering indoors would bother going outside. Apart from the obvious honeypots that are admittedly getting thoroughly trashed (i.e. the Plantation) I'm not too worried about the crags getting over-crowded.

In a few years time we'll all be doing some form of parkour-meets bouldering in a massive hanger in the Don Valley. Or a climbing version of those phone apps that allow cyclists to train in the garage in front of a widescreen TV as part of a peloton. Maybe.

It's only a matter of time before someone builds a replica of a famous route/boulder indoors, with an app to go with it for sharing beta etc.

The future of British climbing is indoors. What it lacks (other than the Schoolroom) is set problems/routes that never change, that would be as memorable a 'tick' as if it were an outdoor climb.

I couldn't agree with this more. I have climbed in the county for over thirty years and have seen a steady decline in the number of people at the crags in pretty much a direct correlation to the number of walls. Kyloe in and bowden used to have 30+ people on them on good days in the 80s now its a handful at most and if you go off the beaten track you will be surprised to see another party. Places like Bowden got trashed very quickly due to the repeated tries nature of bouldering not due to loads more people going to the crag.

Everyone things Malham and Kilnsey are busy now but you should have seen them in the late 80s (malham) early 90s (kilnsey). I went to borrowdale this year for the 1st time in 20 years and was blown away that there was no one climbing. Shepherds and Falcon used to have queues for the popular routes.

Indoor climbing and comps are the big growth factor for our sport and will only become more so. It would be ludicrous for it not to be part of the BMC and i think they need to go much further in support of this. The money gained form encouraging the indoor climbers to join can then support the writing of esoteric guides.



The future growth of climbing has to be seen as indoors and i dont see why the BMC dont want to benefit financially from it.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 26, 2017, 02:31:09 pm
The future growth of climbing has to be seen as indoors and i dont see why the BMC dont want to benefit financially from it.

Its not just a question of financially benefiting from it - indoor climbers are climbers - and if we are to be representative of climbers we have to represent and support and champion the interests of indoor climbers too.

We do that through comps and the GB Teams mainly but we are currently grappling with how we can provide a membership offering and service more in tune with their needs to grow the membership of this segment of the climbing population which will in turn support the finances we can legitimately push in their direction. I don't see growing their membership as a way of exclusively subsidising activities that are outside their interests. That wouldn't be fair. 
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: SA Chris on January 26, 2017, 03:00:41 pm
Maybe climbing walls are the new clubs, and everyone is automatically affiliated that way?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 26, 2017, 03:07:22 pm
Then look at supporting commercial walls to become Community Interest companies and transition somewhat towards the typical "sports club" model?

Don't shoot me.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 26, 2017, 04:43:46 pm
Then look at supporting commercial walls to become Community Interest companies and transition somewhat towards the typical "sports club" model?

Don't shoot me.

Can you elaborate how this would work, how this would benefit indoor climbers and what BMC support would be useful
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 26, 2017, 04:45:28 pm
Maybe climbing walls are the new clubs

Interesting perspective - Id never thought of it that way
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: slackline on January 26, 2017, 04:51:29 pm
How would annual membership work under such a proposal?

I've membership at...

Foundry
Awesome Walls
Climbing Works
Matrix

...but I don't have a monthly or annual pass for any.  No annual membership is paid to any of them and there is no money that could pass on for BMC affiliation.  How would individuals, who can attend any given wall with different frequency, pay a fair amount towards BMC and without having to pay multiple times over if they go to multiple walls?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 26, 2017, 05:47:19 pm
Then look at supporting commercial walls to become Community Interest companies and transition somewhat towards the typical "sports club" model?

Don't shoot me.

Can you elaborate how this would work, how this would benefit indoor climbers and what BMC support would be useful

Give me a while and I'll pm you.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Wil on January 26, 2017, 06:00:18 pm
In no particular reply to anyone:

I've been a BMC member since my first climbing trip abroad aged 18. (14 years now). I like to support their work with access and have attended a couple of meets over the years. The insurance cost has unfortunately become cumbersome, and I'm in the camp which doesn't necessarily agree with the competition focus, but more that I think this should be a sub dept of the BMC.

I'm confused by the several comments about it being "old fashioned". This is true in the sense that it is a council of clubs, and many people don't join clubs any more, but otherwise I think they've moved with the times well. If you want to see old fashioned join the CC (I am a member).
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: gme on January 26, 2017, 11:18:14 pm
The future growth of climbing has to be seen as indoors and i dont see why the BMC dont want to benefit financially from it.

Its not just a question of financially benefiting from it - indoor climbers are climbers - and if we are to be representative of climbers we have to represent and support and champion the interests of indoor climbers too.

I don't see growing their membership as a way of exclusively subsidising activities that are outside their interests. That wouldn't be fair.

Is that not what has always happened though. General membership has allowed funding for stuff such as guides to esoteric areas etc. What's different.
It does annoy me that there are some walls that are doing very nicely from the boom in indoor climbing that really don't put back. Why don't we have tha funds to stage a World Cup or build a big comp wall  like other federations do. Wall owners happy to make money but don't put back. ( I know this isn't all of them but I also know that some are doing very nicely from it.).
So I didn't mean exclusively using there money for other stuff, most should be spent back in comps. but believe what your suggesting has always happened.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: gme on January 26, 2017, 11:24:51 pm
To use a business analogy to focus on how it's always been and not change tack to involve indoor climbers sounds very much like Kodak.

Maybe you can hope that Ron hills, sleeping in bothies and jelly Hanson will have its day again like vinyl.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on January 27, 2017, 07:11:27 am
In the same way as the BMC had bought up crags that maybe in peril - perhaps in the future we will see it buying up much loved but threatened climbing walls....

I don't agree btw - just throwing it out there.

By the way Wil - most references to Old Fashioned are largely directed at Shark - to make him feel even older and weaker ;)
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 27, 2017, 07:54:38 am
In the same way as the BMC had bought up crags that maybe in peril - perhaps in the future we will see it buying up much loved but threatened climbing walls....

I don't agree btw - just throwing it out there.

By the way Wil - most references to Old Fashioned are largely directed at Shark - to make him feel even older and weaker ;)

That somewhat follows what I was getting at earlier.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on January 27, 2017, 09:38:33 am
In the same way as the BMC had bought up crags that maybe in peril - perhaps in the future we will see it buying up much loved but threatened climbing walls....

I don't agree btw - just throwing it out there.


That somewhat follows what I was getting at earlier.

Given that Access and Conservation are members highest priority by a long way (2010 survey) the purchase of crags has happened but not without considerable resistance and considerable caveats when it does occur and judged on a case by case basis. Crags are not bought willy nilly and often gifted.

Given that indoor climbing was members lowest priority by a long way the purchase of a wall is highly unlikely. The strongest case I can think of was Broughton which was a council owned recreation centre where the climbing facilities were developed by voluntary efforts by local climbers (ie a glorified community woodie with existing steep bendcrete wall). It is an elitist venue though.

Furthermore a wall requires active 7 day a week management whereas a crag doesnt.

Matt - Im still awaiting that PM you promised
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on January 27, 2017, 09:48:54 am
I know. I have a client in ten minutes and a group from South Devon college an hour after... just time for a double espresso and this.
I'll get to it today. I need to think it through. We almost went down this route when we took over the council wall at Parkfield (it didn't work out because councils suck).
It doesn't involve BMC purchasing walls, but moving to a non-profit model that is better suited to obtaining external funding in a manner similar to current Olympic Sports clubs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Catcheemonkey on January 27, 2017, 10:02:43 am
Maybe climbing walls are the new clubs, and everyone is automatically affiliated that way?

I think there is a lot of weight to this.

If the BMC is serious about pulling in the next generation of members, an adjustment to the business model could be to have Walls affiliate themselves and then offer BMC membership to users when they sign up. If the benefits of membership are made clear or (*deep breath*) tailored to indoor climbers I recon there would be some uptake.

You'd then have a basis on which the BMC could directly support Walls (maybe via some sort of rebate or marketing budget) and the BMC would have an expanded network to promote it.

The big question, I think, is whether the BMC and its members want to engage the indoor climbing community more closely or whether this would distract from the excellent work it does regarding access etc.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on January 27, 2017, 10:10:35 am
I should have mentioned this to Shark yesterday - but as a more itinerant member/visitor of multiple climbing walls I was thinking about the following idea...

an organisation (BMC?) keeps the reg details of a customer - so when they go to a new wall to sign up - that wall can link to the database and bingo - the customer is there.

Taking this idea further - instead of having memberships at certain walls etc.. often say £10 year - if being BMC member got you this as well then that would seem a good idea.

As I understand it climbing wall insurance conditions are often the reason for the variable and rather detailed questionnaires/disclaimers you have to wade through at a wall - is there some way that a BMC member (for example) could therefore cut through that...

This might even reduce the walls premium - thus costs - thus rates for BMC members??

Lots of half ideas here but some mash up of wall membership, BMC membership, details database etc...

Maybe one of the big wall conglomerates ( see what I did there... :D ) could have some deal with the BMC and have a reduced entry rate? Depot/Awesome chain for example...??
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Fiend on January 27, 2017, 10:28:00 am
Edit: cba.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: cheque on January 27, 2017, 10:41:31 am
We're gonna buy the crags!

And we'll make the indoor climbers pay for it!

It's gonna be tremendous.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: slackline on January 27, 2017, 10:42:46 am

Maybe one of the big wall conglomerates ( see what I did there... :D ) could have some deal with the BMC and have a reduced entry rate? Depot/Awesome chain for example...??

Awesome walls offer a £1 discount to members of the Mynydd Climbing Club (http://mynydd.org.uk/).
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on January 27, 2017, 12:10:23 pm
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170127/47c0a23780766fc6c7ee6a4a3d5782b0.jpg)
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: lagerstarfish on January 27, 2017, 02:16:31 pm
We're gonna buy the crags!

And we'll make the indoor climbers pay for it!

It's gonna be tremendous.

Indoor climbers should pay double; they don't help keep the outdoor rocks clean

(chants of "build that wall")
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: ashtond6 on January 27, 2017, 02:50:09 pm
Member via cc but wouldn't join on its own.

I think it's pretty old fashioned in its mentality
I disagree with the comps in a big way
I don't even get an insurance quote anymore as its been a rip off for at least 5 years
Guidebooks seem to be for areas with 184832 guidebooks already
Area meets are unproductive and discuss fence posts and farmers rather than access in my experience

Thought I better finally reply to some questions, especially since Fiend has puntered me twice for 'lying' in the above????? :wub:

Regarding guidebooks, I've already apologised in a previous post that it wasn't thought through - I guess in the Peak it feels a little clogged up even though the BMC grit guides were older. However for limestone guides this isn't the case.   I didn't make it clear, but the guidebooks comment was more about guides having no impact on the BMC debate - as 'for profit' organisations or locals will produce these regardless.

The area meets I attended were a few Peak ones last year in Grindleford. None before this, as I moved to Sheffield late 2015.

Dave - you say my comments about it being old fashioned whilst disagreeing with comps is contradictory. I understand your logic however disagree since IMO they are not linked. To be a young modern climber these days, does not mean you participate in comps. Personally, I consider them pretty much different sports.

Ref the comps, a few people are saying our subs don't fund these - if this is the case maybe the BMC could communicate this better? Knowing some people are put off by this opinion

On insurance - I would use it but other companies are cheaper & easier to customize.

highrepute - thanks for the support  :)



Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on January 27, 2017, 03:16:40 pm
Dave - you say my comments about it being old fashioned whilst disagreeing with comps is contradictory. I understand your logic however disagree since IMO they are not linked. To be a young modern climber these days, does not mean you participate in comps. Personally, I consider them pretty much different sports.

No, I was saying that people can't criticise the BMC of being old-fashioned then in the next breath imply criticism of them for embracing indoor comps too much. That's the contradiction - if the BMC was genuinely old fashioned it would want nothing to do with comps.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: nai on January 27, 2017, 04:50:18 pm
To be a young modern climber these days, does not mean you participate in comps. Personally, I consider them pretty much different sports.

Only in the same way that Rugby Union and Rugby League are always referred to as completely different sports but players manage to switch codes and play at a similar level in either.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 06, 2017, 02:12:23 pm
Just stumbled across a piece by Ed Douglas when he reviewed a book called "The first fifty years of the BMC"

The below was written in 1998 and although nearly 20 years there is still a lot that is resonant (with me at least) though criticisms of being undemocratic and beyond criticism and  unresponsive to criticism no longer hold water IMO. Be interesting to hear his views now on what has changed...

https://www.alpinejournal.org.uk/Contents/Contents_1998_files/AJ%201998%20301-331%20Book%20Reviews.pdf
 
Quote
“…so the British Mountaineering Council, a little winded, on occasion bewildered, is still standing and looking pretty good as it enters the second half of its first century…… And I can't avoid the conclusion that the biggest threats to its survival lurk just over the horizon, not defeated in the past. A collapse in funding, the threat of a competitor, the fragmentation of climbing into a range of different activities with little in common with each other, increasing pressure on the countryside, and so on; for a politicised voluntary body with a handful of professional staff, the future looks ominous……. One of the representative body's defining features is the underwhelming interest shown in it by the very people it champions. ……The reality is that the BMC has always been a committee designed by a committee of clubs, a kind of organisational camel, ponderous and of a ridiculous appearance - it can't possibly work! - but actually quite good at coping when things get hot since whoever has stamina in the desert survives. And the BMC has proved very good indeed at survival. In the late 1980s, when a slinky sport-climbing club dared to offer an attractive alternative to the matronly old BMC, the old battleaxe swatted the challenge aside without pausing for breath. But what is it about the organisation that creates such ardent but almost constantly disgruntled support? 'Oh!' says the average climber. 'The BMC!' The eyes roll heavenward and there is a despairing shrug of the shoulders, as though he or she were commenting on some national joke, like the Millennium Dome or railway privatisation.
 
But quick as a flash they will come back: 'Although it does a lot of good work for access and conservation, doesn't it? And their insurance is very good, isn't it?' Well, sort of. The BMC has made serious mistakes over the years and adopted policies without sufficient debate, alienating one group in the interests of keeping or attracting another. It is poorly understood and undemocratic, is run by people with a strong sense of duty and is consequently unresponsive to the large majority of climbers who are not remotely as committed, making the BMC seem rather worthy and dull, at least formerly. It wins and keeps the affection of so many climbers because of the huge voluntary contribution the organisation needs to survive. Even though the majority of climbers contribute at most a cheque and more probably nothing at all to its survival, the BMC is held in esteem because a fraction of climbers give up evenings and weekends to consider and develop ideas about every aspect of climbing. The fruits of their Sisyphean labours are minuted and accumulate, giving the BMC more impetus, making it appear like some unstoppable force. It is a rock for us to cling to or rail against, but at least it is there, like a favourite maiden aunt. (When crisis looms we can hide in her skirts and appeal for help. 'Do something!') It has also meant, on the whole, that the BMC has escaped criticism in public, since nobody likes to be seen beating up old ladies. There have been bitter, even savage debates, particularly over training, but the level  the representation of our sport is placed under barely exceeds vague indifference. Had the BMC been more open and those watching its activities a little more objective and enthusiastic then perhaps its current direction would be more focused. Instead it finds itself organising climbing competitions and events with the obvious consequence of attracting new participants while at the same time claiming to stick to a policy of doing the exact opposite. It concerns itself with defending adventure climbing while supporting those aspects of modern climbing which are most corrosive to - ghastly misnomer - 'traditional' climbing. That is not to say that the BMC necessarily deserves duffing up. I am regularly astonished at how capable and thoughtful officers and volunteers are in the execution of their duties. It's simply that disapproval is heaped on anyone daring to criticise or question policies or actions. It's unpatriotic in some fundamental way to attack the BMC, as though we were perpetually at war and those opposed to the BMC's course were giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: galpinos on February 06, 2017, 02:32:01 pm
Only in the same way that Rugby Union and Rugby League are always referred to as completely different sports but players manage to switch codes and play at a similar level in either.

Sam Burgess?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: petejh on February 06, 2017, 03:30:03 pm
Ed Douglas writes brilliantly. In a time where many climbers feel the need to call themselves 'writers' (let me guess - you're an athlete too)- it's nice to be reminded what it really means to be one.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Offwidth on February 08, 2017, 04:42:18 pm
 I wonder what Ed thinks now... might ask him if he goes to Grindleford tonight. A lot has changed in democratic and organisational terms, things like ownership and management  of crags and the Peak guidebooks which have improved massively and include bouldering and sport (without looking like they have farted in a telephone box). Some problems exist, still the biggest being the lack of climber engagement.  Access work remains the biggest strength.

That book is still dull and as much cover-up as history.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Three Nine on February 08, 2017, 04:46:45 pm
Just seen this thread.

Because the BMC tries to 'increase participation' in climbing; I don't want that. Not interested in arguing the point, just FYI Simon.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 08, 2017, 05:12:27 pm
Just seen this thread.

Because the BMC tries to 'increase participation' in climbing; I don't want that. Not interested in arguing the point, just FYI Simon.

Thanks - though I just don't get it. You're not alone either on this one. It seems selfish to me. I accept you don't want to argue you the point so I'll pose it rhetorically: Why wouldn't you want others to discover and enjoy and share in the sport you love?   :hug:
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 08, 2017, 05:30:32 pm
I wonder what Ed thinks now... might ask him if he goes to Grindleford tonight. A lot has changed in democratic and organisational terms, things like ownership and management  of crags and the Peak guidebooks which have improved massively and include bouldering and sport (without looking like they have farted in a telephone box). Some problems exist, still the biggest being the lack of climber engagement. 

Me too. He's hoping to be down. I've exchanged a few emails with him on the subject which I want to discuss.

Perhaps a Q&A type article for the next Peak News letter ? Would the Dave Cofe collective like that?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on February 08, 2017, 05:51:36 pm
Just seen this thread.

Because the BMC tries to 'increase participation' in climbing; I don't want that. Not interested in arguing the point, just FYI Simon.

Thanks - though I just don't get it. You're not alone either on this one. It seems selfish to me. I accept you don't want to argue you the point so I'll pose it rhetorically: Why wouldn't you want others to discover and enjoy and share in the sport you love?   :hug:
Do you need to ask?


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Three Nine on February 08, 2017, 06:52:47 pm
Just seen this thread.

Because the BMC tries to 'increase participation' in climbing; I don't want that. Not interested in arguing the point, just FYI Simon.

Thanks - though I just don't get it. You're not alone either on this one. It seems selfish to me. I accept you don't want to argue you the point so I'll pose it rhetorically: Why wouldn't you want others to discover and enjoy and share in the sport you love?   :hug:

It is selfish. Why don't you let a homeless person come live in your house? You've plenty enough room! Because it would make it less nice for you. Ok a silly analogy, but I hate busy crags and im a weekend warrior. It annoys me that a lot of the pro-participation advocates are those a) making money out of climbing and b) aren't weekend warriors! But like I said, dont wan't to argue the position!

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on February 09, 2017, 08:21:02 am
I wonder what Ed thinks now... might ask him if he goes to Grindleford tonight. A lot has changed in democratic and organisational terms, things like ownership and management  of crags and the Peak guidebooks which have improved massively and include bouldering and sport (without looking like they have farted in a telephone box). Some problems exist, still the biggest being the lack of climber engagement. 

Me too. He's hoping to be down. I've exchanged a few emails with him on the subject which I want to discuss.

Perhaps a Q&A type article for the next Peak News letter ? Would the Dave Cofe collective like that?

Fine by me.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Paul B on February 09, 2017, 09:50:33 am
It is selfish. Why don't you let a homeless person come live in your house? You've plenty enough room! Because it would make it less nice for you. Ok a silly analogy, but I hate busy crags and im a weekend warrior. It annoys me that a lot of the pro-participation advocates are those a) making money out of climbing and b) aren't weekend warriors! But like I said, dont wan't to argue the position!

I'm with Three Nine on this one either that or the BMC and other pro-participation organisations (walls) need to get a whole lot better at educating people.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: petejh on February 09, 2017, 10:57:12 am
Me too to some extent. I'm trying to remember the details of how I got into climbing and who 'helped'. I think I was just attracted to it by being attracted to being in the outdoors and exploring/having an adventure. I can't remeber any organisation being involved.
I can't help thinking it's probably a good thing overall to have natural barriers to activities such as climbing/mountaineering - it weeds out those that don't really care enough about the pastime.
I think I can see the potential value of introducing youth from deprived 'urban' backgrounds to the outdoors, though I'm unsure what the ratio of long-term take-up is likely to be - given where they live they're likely to have so much other stuff - good or bad - vying for their attention.
As for the middle-class rest of society - they can take it or leave it, I honestly don't care. And if you take it then you should learn the history and ethics.
Actually, if the BMC's aim is to grow the numbers of people getting into climbing/mountaineering then something they should be doing imo is educating newcomers about the history, ethics, where the pastime came from and how it's developed. Maybe they already do this, I don't know? Perhaps Caff or someone else could shed some light on what the youth policy looks like.

Bottom line is I can't avoid the conclusion that the whole 'grow participation' part of the BMC is not much more than job creation/job justification/funding chasing by the BMC, dressed up in 'doing good work'.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Offwidth on February 09, 2017, 11:40:03 am
All that may be true to some extent. Yet the BMC are still by far the best at facilitiating and dealing with access for the activity I love. Another one of my fave places will likely be under their ownership protection next week.

This is all despite my natural distrust of committees, and a belief people must really want to try climbing before I will help them outdoors .... as its addictive and risky.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: abarro81 on February 09, 2017, 12:22:24 pm
but I hate busy crags and im a weekend warrior. It annoys me that a lot of the pro-participation advocates are those a) making money out of climbing and b) aren't weekend warriors!

RE both this and when when you moan at Randall on facebook about more and more people training at the wall... I used to not be convinced, but having seen more and more people training endurance in a structured way since I came back, I would certainly think twice before doing any more 'advocacy', as it were, for structured training. Even with a private facility like the school on my doorstep I'm not looking forward to when I start trying to get fit again later in the year - there's already too many people in the way!
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on February 09, 2017, 02:24:24 pm
Even with a private facility like the school on my doorstep I'm not looking forward to when I start trying to get fit again later in the year - there's already too many people in the way!

If it's any consolation I'm not looking forward to you trying to get fit again either.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: jwi on February 09, 2017, 05:44:05 pm
It's horrible trying to get fit in a commercial gym. I've always ended up hating everyone, and having everyone hate me...

Inspired by the massive wall Said set up at his grandparents place...
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8577/15881673704_cd8efa54fd_b.jpg)
In the new apartment I might be able to fit a small system board/campus with feet for training in the 45s-8min span. Clearly not possible to use for massive amount of moves, but I'll try to make it so it's possible to tilt so that we can both use it for the entire spectrum of strength endurance with at least 2-3 different depths of edges and 2 widths of pinches.

Does anyone have any specific tips / hints?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Muenchener on February 09, 2017, 05:47:51 pm
Why wouldn't you want others to discover and enjoy and share in the sport you love?

I'm not 3-9 but I do have a perspective on your question, which is this:

Climbable rock is a finite and non-renewable resource that does not hold up well under heavy traffic. Look at the state of Stoney already in the 80s, and extrapolate to every single popular limestone crag being that bad soon. Even grit - I was quite saddened last year to return to Burbage and find what a slippery horror Banana Finger has become compared to when I first did it some time in the Late Neolithic. One also reads about gear placements getting worn and breaking on popular trad classics like Right Unconquerable.

The fact that we collectively are rapidly wearing the rock out is perhaps something that is more apparent to a punter like me than it is to those of you who are operating at grades fewer people are capable of. But it seems to me that it's a huge elephant in the room that people don't really want to talk about. I don't see any obvious or easy answer to it.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: grimer on February 09, 2017, 06:18:00 pm
Do people really feel that the growing numbers of 'climbers' means more people at the crags? I would have thought that, bar a small number of crags, there's been a steady decline since the earlt-2000s.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Three Nine on February 09, 2017, 06:30:35 pm
but I hate busy crags and im a weekend warrior. It annoys me that a lot of the pro-participation advocates are those a) making money out of climbing and b) aren't weekend warriors!

RE both this and when when you moan at Randall on facebook about more and more people training at the wall... I used to not be convinced, but having seen more and more people training endurance in a structured way since I came back, I would certainly think twice before doing any more 'advocacy', as it were, for structured training. Even with a private facility like the school on my doorstep I'm not looking forward to when I start trying to get fit again later in the year - there's already too many people in the way!

Ha fuckin hell try coming to the Bristol walls! Especially now energy systems are the fashion with TCA and their flipping lattice board  :ras: I understand why Randall does it - its his bread and butter and it doesn't matter to him if the walls are busy (he owns a wall and home facilities) - it just fucks me off! I'm sure i'd do the same in his position, its just im not in his position!

@Grimer - yes, hugely, at least down this way. Places like Ansteys/the South Wales crags are way more rammed. However I tend to hang about at sport crags not trad crags, so maybe that's different.

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Three Nine on February 09, 2017, 06:32:03 pm
Do people really feel that the growing numbers of 'climbers' means more people at the crags? I would have thought that, bar a small number of crags, there's been a steady decline since the earlt-2000s.

Ps. and yes I blame you personally (and Simon). Fat cats screwing the rest of us.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on February 09, 2017, 06:32:10 pm
Grimer, I think there are slightly more folk overall at crags since I started (early 90's) - but there's a greater concentration in a few honeypot sites and fewer at medium and especially esoteric venues.

Plantation, Almscliff, Burbage, Caley - always going to have loads of traffic due to the quality of the climbing - proximity to roads and cities and three large amount available there.

But it's still really really easy to go to crags like Widdop, gardoms etc.. on a great conditions day - at the weekend and see next to no-one there.

At a few spots it can be horribly busy (to me at least) at 'peak times' but it's super easy to escape.

Regarding rock wear - well some places are softer than others - but Almscliff is just as polished in the places it was bad as it was in the early 90's...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on February 09, 2017, 07:21:35 pm
Moaning that the walls are getting too busy is mental. If they pass capacity then the businesses will expand or new ones will spring up. Or if you put pressure on them they might improve their higher end facilities or cordon them off for "serious climbers" at certain times.

You can't do that with the crags but, as I've laboured on here before, the problem is really that people lack imagination when picking where to go. There are heaps of crags out there where more traffic would be welcome, but why do that when you could climb your 203rd problem on Demon Wall Roof.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Three Nine on February 09, 2017, 07:57:15 pm
Moaning that the walls are getting too busy is mental. If they pass capacity then the businesses will expand or new ones will spring up. Or if you put pressure on them they might improve their higher end facilities or cordon them off for "serious climbers" at certain times.

You can't do that with the crags but, as I've laboured on here before, the problem is really that people lack imagination when picking where to go. There are heaps of crags out there where more traffic would be welcome, but why do that when you could climb your 203rd problem on Demon Wall Roof.

You clearly know dick all about what is involved in structured training.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: moose on February 09, 2017, 10:26:24 pm
Strangely, overcrowding with "civilians" has encouraged / forced me to spend my sessions in a more structured  way (or at least a more gruelling one). I am a weekend warrior with Reynauds, so the true "hardcore" are often seeking out "grit conditions" when I'm at the wall. So, for me, the best way of avoiding the crowds of kids and "gym refugees" that remain is hiding in the training room and spending 3hrs slipping off the 30 degree.  From what I gather, time on the training boards is more at a premium midweek.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: 36chambers on February 09, 2017, 11:07:24 pm
but why do that when you could climb your 203rd problem on Demon Wall Roof.

what else is one supposed to do when their other half has a project on there?? :coffee:
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on February 09, 2017, 11:21:59 pm
Moaning that the walls are getting too busy is mental. If they pass capacity then the businesses will expand or new ones will spring up. Or if you put pressure on them they might improve their higher end facilities or cordon them off for "serious climbers" at certain times.

You can't do that with the crags but, as I've laboured on here before, the problem is really that people lack imagination when picking where to go. There are heaps of crags out there where more traffic would be welcome, but why do that when you could climb your 203rd problem on Demon Wall Roof.

You clearly know dick all about what is involved in structured training.

Well that much is true. Why don't you enlighten us? Is it sole use of the equipment to ensure that when your stopwatch goes off there isn't some other cunt attached to the holds? If that's the case then don't expect to get this at the public wall at peak time. Go at off peak times/build your own facility/group together with others to establish an exclusive shared facility (there are cases where this has worked. The Dispensary in Liverpool, for instance) or whatever, just don't expect that everyone else should curtail their enjoyment of a public space because you're more worthy than they are.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 10, 2017, 07:38:19 am
I know he's been provocative but please keep this thread on topic. Thanks
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on February 10, 2017, 08:36:05 am
I find this definition of "rammed" mildly amusing...
I lived in the Ardeche for 10 years from the mid '90s. The number of crags in close proximity and staggering number of routes, just in that one zone of France; was as War and Peace is to Anstey's postage stamp.
And yet it was rammed at weekends if there was as much as a hint of fair weather. Literally thousands of climbers, despite being a good hour and a half from the nearest big city.
We have nothing like the participation in this country, we also seem to be the only nation that has any coherent idea idea of "Ethics" (or is it obsession?)


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: abarro81 on February 10, 2017, 08:39:29 am
Is it sole use of the equipment to ensure that when your stopwatch goes off there isn't some other cunt attached to the holds? If that's the case then don't expect to get this at the public wall at peak time. Go at off peak times/build your own facility/group together with others to establish an exclusive shared facility (there are cases where this has worked. The Dispensary in Liverpool, for instance) or whatever, just don't expect that everyone else should curtail their enjoyment of a public space because you're more worthy than they are.

You seem to have completely missed the point.
1. You don't need sole use, but the more people there are using the training facilities, spending long period on the wall and doing timed exercises the more difficult it is to coordinate multiple people and the more it fucks with your timings.
2. Whilst all of your suggestions are feasible, they're all more of a pain in the ass than there just being less people in the way using the training facilities for structured training. Which is the point that was being made.
3. Even people like me have a job sometimes, thus limiting off-peak options.
4. Even members only facilities get busy.
5. No-one's saying that people 'should' curtail their enjoyment, just that more people in the way and more people doing structured stuff instead of just messing around = more pain in the ass for training in a structured way. Thus encouraging more people, and encouraging more structured training, has the possibility to have annoying outcomes. It's not about whether expecting a quiet area of wall is reasonable, it's about whether it's getting harder to find.
6. All of the above are pretty irrelevant if you're trying to get strong but hugely relevant if you're trying to get fit.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 10, 2017, 08:45:44 am
Ben Moon's conclusion on more people at the crags: "its outweighed by the positives"

https://youtu.be/S41mIpKOEfI
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on February 10, 2017, 08:52:20 am
Ben Moon's conclusion on more people at the crags: "its outweighed by the positives"

Climbing clobber manufacturer in pro-participation shocker.

(http://iruntheinternet.com/lulzdump/images/gifs/sean-of-the-dead-have-a-pint-wait-for-it-all-to-blow-over-pub-pint-1388932364M.gif?id=)
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 10, 2017, 09:09:43 am
 :lol:
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: T_B on February 10, 2017, 09:59:12 am
Is it sole use of the equipment to ensure that when your stopwatch goes off there isn't some other cunt attached to the holds? If that's the case then don't expect to get this at the public wall at peak time. Go at off peak times/build your own facility/group together with others to establish an exclusive shared facility (there are cases where this has worked. The Dispensary in Liverpool, for instance) or whatever, just don't expect that everyone else should curtail their enjoyment of a public space because you're more worthy than they are.

You seem to have completely missed the point.
1. You don't need sole use, but the more people there are using the training facilities, spending long period on the wall and doing timed exercises the more difficult it is to coordinate multiple people and the more it fucks with your timings.
2. Whilst all of your suggestions are feasible, they're all more of a pain in the ass than there just being less people in the way using the training facilities for structured training. Which is the point that was being made.
3. Even people like me have a job sometimes, thus limiting off-peak options.
4. Even members only facilities get busy.
5. No-one's saying that people 'should' curtail their enjoyment, just that more people in the way and more people doing structured stuff instead of just messing around = more pain in the ass for training in a structured way. Thus encouraging more people, and encouraging more structured training, has the possibility to have annoying outcomes. It's not about whether expecting a quiet area of wall is reasonable, it's about whether it's getting harder to find.
6. All of the above are pretty irrelevant if you're trying to get strong but hugely relevant if you're trying to get fit.

So we've got all these amazing facilities that the previous generation didn't have, but they're too busy for you to do structured training :boohoo: (violin not small enough in this emoji).

I suppose you could ask Jerry to subsidise your training by limiting the number of customers to the Foundry? Maybe invest in a few more Autobelays? Sure, the wall would make a loss, but it would help you get up 9a+?  :lol:

I admire your idealism!
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: gme on February 10, 2017, 10:23:12 am
Is it sole use of the equipment to ensure that when your stopwatch goes off there isn't some other cunt attached to the holds? If that's the case then don't expect to get this at the public wall at peak time. Go at off peak times/build your own facility/group together with others to establish an exclusive shared facility (there are cases where this has worked. The Dispensary in Liverpool, for instance) or whatever, just don't expect that everyone else should curtail their enjoyment of a public space because you're more worthy than they are.

You seem to have completely missed the point.
1. You don't need sole use, but the more people there are using the training facilities, spending long period on the wall and doing timed exercises the more difficult it is to coordinate multiple people and the more it fucks with your timings.
2. Whilst all of your suggestions are feasible, they're all more of a pain in the ass than there just being less people in the way using the training facilities for structured training. Which is the point that was being made.
3. Even people like me have a job sometimes, thus limiting off-peak options.
4. Even members only facilities get busy.
5. No-one's saying that people 'should' curtail their enjoyment, just that more people in the way and more people doing structured stuff instead of just messing around = more pain in the ass for training in a structured way. Thus encouraging more people, and encouraging more structured training, has the possibility to have annoying outcomes. It's not about whether expecting a quiet area of wall is reasonable, it's about whether it's getting harder to find.
6. All of the above are pretty irrelevant if you're trying to get strong but hugely relevant if you're trying to get fit.

So we've got all these amazing facilities that the previous generation didn't have, but they're too busy for you to do structured training :boohoo: (violin not small enough in this emoji).

I suppose you could ask Jerry to subsidise your training by limiting the number of customers to the Foundry? Maybe invest in a few more Autobelays? Sure, the wall would make a loss, but it would help you get up 9a+?  :lol:

I admire your idealism!
I too nearly choked on my coffee when i read that. The facilities these days are out of this world but have to be for everyone. If you not happy with them build your own.

No facility is going to be ideal for one person, the closest you will get, unless you build your own, is the likes of the school and still many people moan about that. Too quite, doesnt have the fingerboard i normally use, campus board is not the same angle as X, weight bench isnt comfortable enough etc etc.

Back to the main subject in my experience in Northumberland the crags are a lot less busy than they were in the 80s and 90s so i dont believe loads more people going to the wall is increasing the numbers on the crag in Northumberland. This is actually having a negative effect on the crags as they are slowly reverting back to there wild state to a point where i dont think they will ever be climbed on again and therefore have no objection to the BMC trying to encourage more people to climb.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Teaboy on February 10, 2017, 10:40:02 am
Most sport crags are busier than they've ever been (and I'm including the fabled Malham Catwalk in the 90's in that comparison). Trad crags not so much, probably, but also there are legendary trad routes that all trad climbers want to do at hundreds of crags in the UK but the routes sport climbers *really* want to do in the UK are confined to about 7 crags.
Title: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on February 10, 2017, 10:53:47 am
^^ this.

I agree Anstey's is quite busy on sunny weekends. But I walk the dog there most weeks, two or three times. There's rarely a soul to be seen, wet or dry, summer or winter. At most a small group or just a pair. I climb on the moors, during the week. Alone. Yesterday I went to Bonehill for the first time in a while. It was sunny and cold. I was the only person there when I arrived at 9:30. When I left at 11:30 the only other humans were an elderly couple who parked up and went hiking.
I went over to Hay tor. The busiest place on Dartmoor by a hefty margin. Quite a few dog walkers, but not a single climber. I walked back to Hound tor and ate lunch in the sun. Nobody.
Three of the biggest honey spots on the moor, I was the only climber. Even in warm sunny summer days, in school holidays, I've not found Bonehill crowded.
Most school holidays, you'll find me with my kids clipping bolts at Portland. In the last five years, only once have I been within talking distance of another group of climbers! That includes a few Saturdays.
Now, I haven't been to the Peak in donkey's, but last time I was at Stanage I had to wait for three other pairs to get my buddy on his first ascent of Right Unconquerable...

Edit:
Teaboy got in first, I was thinking of GME's post.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: andy_e on February 10, 2017, 11:01:53 am
A lot of anecdotal "the crags are/aren't getting busier" evidence. Can anyone do any SCIENCE please?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Paul B on February 10, 2017, 11:11:44 am
Back to the main subject in my experience in Northumberland the crags are a lot less busy than they were in the 80s and 90s so i dont believe loads more people going to the wall is increasing the numbers on the crag in Northumberland. This is actually having a negative effect on the crags as they are slowly reverting back to there wild state to a point where i dont think they will ever be climbed on again and therefore have no objection to the BMC trying to encourage more people to climb.

You're being highly selective here; how's Bowden fairing these days? Do you think people give it the respect it requires after rain? Do you ever see new starters not properly cleaning their shoes?

weight bench isnt comfortable enough etc etc.


You're referencing the school bench here; it's plywood with matting carpet attached and zero padding. This isn't good for lifting weights on (I don't have any back fat to compensate); it has injury written all over it. It's a fair criticism (as was lack of fingerboard and sufficient warmups) and to suggest otherwise undercuts your argument. Perhaps (likely) these suggestions weren't made in the best way but that's a seperate point.

With regards to walls, Will, I failed to complete 10 reps of 1 min of repeaters, one min of shaking out, on a fingerboard at the wall on Tues. The other fingerboards were out of action (music also switched off) because of a yoga class. Suggesting you just go another time is about as strong as your Moors arguement for when the sport climbing gets busy (i.e. it ignores all other factors). This shows the realities of commercial walls, the profit is not in the people with the stopwatch (and they're entirely right to aim at what the majority of their customer base wants). In the future, like I've said elsewhere, this will change.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: gme on February 10, 2017, 12:04:45 pm
Back to the main subject in my experience in Northumberland the crags are a lot less busy than they were in the 80s and 90s so i dont believe loads more people going to the wall is increasing the numbers on the crag in Northumberland. This is actually having a negative effect on the crags as they are slowly reverting back to there wild state to a point where i dont think they will ever be climbed on again and therefore have no objection to the BMC trying to encourage more people to climb.

You're being highly selective here; how's Bowden fairing these days? Do you think people give it the respect it requires after rain? Do you ever see new starters not properly cleaning their shoes?

No i am not. Bowden is never busy either compared to years ago. I am not saying that the rock hasnt been damaged but that has happened over years and is as much to do with repeated attempts at the same handful of problems as the points you raised. I go there at least 1-2 times a month and there is never more than a few other parties on the crag. On top of that if there are groups of 4+ people there they tend to be from outside the NE and up for a few days. The number of people out who live in the NE is minimal despite there now being 7-8 busy climbing walls compared to the 1 or 2 we had years ago.
weight bench isnt comfortable enough etc etc.


You're referencing the school bench here; it's plywood with matting carpet attached and zero padding. This isn't good for lifting weights on (I don't have any back fat to compensate); it has injury written all over it. It's a fair criticism (as was lack of fingerboard and sufficient warmups) and to suggest otherwise undercuts your argument. Perhaps (likely) these suggestions weren't made in the best way but that's a seperate point.

Exactly as i said, your moaning about minor things. I have no issue with the bench, it could be better yes but how many other walls have a full set of weights etc to use, the fingerboard is fine but not the one you want and i have no issue with warming up there and your a much better climber than me. And no mention of all the positives, what about all the good stuff. I even know that people have left because its to fucking quiet.
Without wanting to sound like a moany old cunt People do not know how lucky they are these days. I wish we had had the facilities you have now 20 years ago even with the crowds.

With regards to walls, Will, I failed to complete 10 reps of 1 min of repeaters, one min of shaking out, on a fingerboard at the wall on Tues. The other fingerboards were out of action (music also switched off) because of a yoga class. Suggesting you just go another time is about as strong as your Moors arguement for when the sport climbing gets busy (i.e. it ignores all other factors). This shows the realities of commercial walls, the profit is not in the people with the stopwatch (and they're entirely right to aim at what the majority of their customer base wants). In the future, like I've said elsewhere, this will change.
I dont think it will change and if it does expect it to be charged accordingly. Any training venue needs to pay for its self and if people want a perfect place to train with limited numbers simple maths means its going to cost, something climbers really dont like.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on February 10, 2017, 12:44:35 pm
The minor annoyances of the school are, for me, mainly only annoying because they would be easy/quick/cheap fixes. You know when something is 95% amazing and that last 5% is an easy fix but doesn't happen? Icing on the cake, but who doesn't like icing on a cake?

The weight bench we're talking a metre offcut of foam, bit of suitable fabric (salvage both from a trashed bouldering mat?) and staple it underneath the ply, 15 mins, job done. Fingerboard; there's an empty steel frame crying out for one of the beastmakers that've been offered. Sheet of ply, few screws/bolts, easy fix.

A pullup bar away from the wall for levers etc is a tougher ask. As for warmups, this ain't Birchens but warming up is fine.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: WillRobertson on February 10, 2017, 01:00:58 pm

I dont think it will change and if it does expect it to be charged accordingly. Any training venue needs to pay for its self and if people want a perfect place to train with limited numbers simple maths means its going to cost, something climbers really dont like.

This. The only way walls will start getting most of their business from people training is if more people want to train, thus making it harder for structured training?

Unless there's some sort of one-in one-out entry system that limits the amount of people to the amount of fingerboards, or campus boards, or circuits boards they have. How is this sustainable?

The fact is if people want to train at public facilities then they have to accept that other members of the public may also want to train/use the equipment and thus be more flexible as a result.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Paul B on February 10, 2017, 01:06:17 pm
No i am not. Bowden is never busy either compared to years ago. I am not saying that the rock hasnt been damaged but that has happened over years and is as much to do with repeated attempts at the same handful of problems as the points you raised. I go there at least 1-2 times a month and there is never more than a few other parties on the crag. On top of that if there are groups of 4+ people there they tend to be from outside the NE and up for a few days. The number of people out who live in the NE is minimal despite there now being 7-8 busy climbing walls compared to the 1 or 2 we had years ago.

Fair enough, it's been some time since I went up there 'regularly' so I'll defer to you on this one. I'm not convinced that wear to the rock (specifically behaviours) elsewhere isn't down to more than this (i.e. cumulative wear).

Quote
Exactly as i said, your moaning about minor things. I have no issue with the bench, it could be better yes but how many other walls have a full set of weights etc to use, the fingerboard is fine but not the one you want and i have no issue with warming up there and your a much better climber than me. And no mention of all the positives, what about all the good stuff. I even know that people have left because its to fucking quiet.
Without wanting to sound like a moany old cunt People do not know how lucky they are these days. I wish we had had the facilities you have now 20 years ago even with the crowds.

There's a difference between moaning (something I'm aware I'm good at) and constructive criticism (something I'm less good at). There were a significant portion of members on the initial opening who had the same constructive criticism. That doesn't mean they "don't know they're born" etc. neither does it mean they don't/didn't appreciate the rest of a given facility (I thought it was great, with the potential of being nigh on perfect). It's far too easy to go character assassination with this and just presume the person doing the moaning/suggesting is a whiny little idiot but look at the requests, do they really seem so unreasonable in hindsight (and basically 'what Dave said')?

Also, without such criticism or commentary things don't change. The best walls I've visited are the ones keen to engage their members.

Quote
I dont think it will change and if it does expect it to be charged accordingly. Any training venue needs to pay for its self and if people want a perfect place to train with limited numbers simple maths means its going to cost, something climbers really dont like.

As the number of people climbing exists, and the general standard progresses I still think that training facilities at walls will gain more focus and for me I think that'll be enough. I also think you're wrong regarding £££. Climbers seem increasingly happy to pay (for training etc.). If a higher % of people are looking to train, walls will offer a higher % of training facilities. The top 1% of which I'm certainly not claiming to be anywhere near will always struggle as commercial venues will never cater for their needs.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Muenchener on February 10, 2017, 01:15:08 pm
With regards to walls, Will, I failed to complete 10 reps of 1 min of repeaters, one min of shaking out, on a fingerboard at the wall on Tues. The other fingerboards were out of action (music also switched off) because of a yoga class.

I managed to chase away a group who were doing pilates type stuff underneath the beastmaker at a wall  on a Sunday afternoon by means of approaching with an air of determination and a 20kg plate hanging from my waist, having previously deliberately switched on my "I am a climber, this is a climbing wall. I am doing something more relevant to climbing than you are. So fuck off and do your pilates somewhere else" mindset.

I am normally mild mannered, self effacing and nice to people, but sometimes it pays to be aware when you have more business being there than somebody else does.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Paul B on February 10, 2017, 01:24:50 pm
In this instance they have every right to be there given it was an organised class (and likely worth more than my desire to hang from a BM). I may not have understood this in my days of pestering Graeme et al. but I do now  :-[

I just wonder if GME feels that raising "your additional FBs are good but having them out of use during peak times due to yoga isn't great" is a fair point to raise or should I hang off the toilet door frame instead (you did this back in the day, right?) whilst simultaneously washing my mouth out with soap?

:devangel:
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: gme on February 10, 2017, 01:32:09 pm


There's a difference between moaning (something I'm aware I'm good at) and constructive criticism (something I'm less good at). There were a significant portion of members on the initial opening who had the same constructive criticism. That doesn't mean they "don't know they're born" etc. neither does it mean they don't/didn't appreciate the rest of a given facility (I thought it was great, with the potential of being nigh on perfect). It's far too easy to go character assassination with this and just presume the person doing the moaning/suggesting is a whiny little idiot but look at the requests, do they really seem so unreasonable in hindsight (and basically 'what Dave said')?

Also, without such criticism or commentary things don't change. The best walls I've visited are the ones keen to engage their members.

Quote
Its gone completely off subject now but i was only using the school, as its somewhere i am aware of the problem, to show that it is nigh on impossible to have a venue that can cater for everyone's needs. Alex would like a huge circuit board that he can do his round and round things on uninterpreted with specific circuits for him built with perfect sized comfortable holds which is possible but then he wants everyone to leave so he can use it as he wants to the sound of a ticking metronome. Others want a motherboard type thing with poor feet etc etc. Pretty much impossible to do on a commercial level unless you get 50 ish members and all pay 1000+ a year and therefore why i think it will never happen.

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Paul B on February 10, 2017, 01:42:27 pm
The top 1% of which I'm certainly not claiming to be anywhere near will always struggle as commercial venues will never cater for their needs.

So I think we're agreed on this at least. You're making me work hard with the quote marks!
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: jwi on February 10, 2017, 02:15:33 pm
Modern bouldering gyms are the reason people are so extraordinarily strong yet so shockingly bad at sport climbing these days. Twenty years ago, if you could do 7b in Fontainebleau you could do almost any 8a route you tried, now someone who does 7b in Font often cannot do 6c routes.

I once visited the climbing wall of a climbing club in a small city with many strong competition climbers. Their local club had a small wall for training endurance with a strictly enforced time-reservation system, not more than 4 people were allowed to use the wall at the same time. They won all the comps.

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: T_B on February 10, 2017, 02:32:28 pm
When the Cockermouth climbing wall opened in 1991, it was hailed as the ultimate wall for training endurance (by local climbers), as one side of the room was a 30 metre natural stone wall. So, basically what people did was do a circuit of the room x 10 times of an evening and that meant you might be fit enough to lead Lakes E3. You'd have 20 - 30 climbers all in a row traversing along in a clockwise direction getting reet fit.

Sounds like there's a need for a modern equivalent. Maybe a huge sphere that slowly spins on a diagonal axis? Does it exist I wonder?

Fingerboards are easy. Just have loads of them on all four sides of a freestanding F/board 'island'.

Modern climbing centres will eventually accommodate the demand for training, as well as the demand for 'easy' bouldering.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on February 10, 2017, 02:44:55 pm
We're not rammed. Plenty of room here. Dip bars, muscle up bar, pull up bar, three finger boards (2 BM 2000's), three boards (variable, 30*, 45*), weights, campus board, Aerial ladder, ninja circuit, bike, X-trainer, rowing machine, traversing wall, couple hundred M^2 bouldering from 5-7B+ and all just a short commute from downtown Shef (6, 7 hours tops)...

Please note a degree of sarcasm in the above. Training is still a very tough sell here.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on February 10, 2017, 03:26:12 pm
Isn't everything at a climbing wall just training? ;)
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: gme on February 10, 2017, 03:38:19 pm
Sorry Paul. After using this forum for god knows how many years I still have no f**king idea how to use the quote thingy.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Muenchener on February 10, 2017, 03:39:48 pm
Isn't everything at a climbing wall just training? ;)

Get with it gramps. Dynoing sideways from one beachball to another is an end in itself.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: WillRobertson on February 10, 2017, 03:42:07 pm
Sorry Paul. After using this forum for god knows how many years I still have no f**king idea how to use the quote thingy.

Having looked for the sake of interest/boredom, it would appear that today is your 11th UKBirthday  :beer2:
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on February 11, 2017, 01:36:10 am
Thread split?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on February 11, 2017, 08:51:28 am
I think Simon is getting a great portrait of the British Climber today.

Apparently a Paranoid Schizophrenic, with OCD for repeated physical actions and borderline Psychotic hatred of other humans within earshot; whilst simultaneously complaining that it's too quiet (and expensive)...


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Offwidth on February 11, 2017, 10:55:25 am
Most British climbers are still having fun.... deluded fools that they are, missing the true seriousness of the games.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: petejh on February 11, 2017, 01:47:03 pm
Fucking ell Barrows and 3-9 you're spoilt in Sheffield for training facilities. Don't know about Bristol, foreign lands. If other humans are an issue you both should move to n.Wales and try using The Mill, you're unlikely to interact with more than two other people per month.
The downside is it's a shithole - if you want light (winter, after work? Ha!) then on top of the annual membership fee you have to pay a fiver each time you go to fill up the petrol geny.

Could the BMC not fund a Welsh Schoolroom, please. Could call it Ysgol Grimpiau.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Steve R on February 11, 2017, 06:51:59 pm
Could the BMC not fund a Welsh Schoolroom, please. Could call it Ysgol Grimpiau.

Without looking back through the pages here, did it crop up that the school room pulls down some funds from the BMC?  It always struck me that it was remarkably cheap for a school membership - 24/7 access to all that for under £200.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: petejh on February 11, 2017, 07:08:48 pm
If that's true then I'm going to be straight on the phone/email to Dave T. And whoever else at BMC towers Monday morning.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Three Nine on February 11, 2017, 08:04:07 pm
Fucking ell Barrows and 3-9 you're spoilt in Sheffield for training facilities. Don't know about Bristol, foreign lands. If other humans are an issue you both should move to n.Wales and try using The Mill, you're unlikely to interact with more than two other people per month.
The downside is it's a shithole - if you want light (winter, after work? Ha!) then on top of the annual membership fee you have to pay a fiver each time you go to fill up the petrol geny.

Could the BMC not fund a Welsh Schoolroom, please. Could call it Ysgol Grimpiau.

Ive not lived in Sheffield for three years. I've been to the Mill and its fuckin ace. What id give to have that!
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: gme on February 12, 2017, 08:36:24 am
Could the BMC not fund a Welsh Schoolroom, please. Could call it Ysgol Grimpiau.

Without looking back through the pages here, did it crop up that the school room pulls down some funds from the BMC?  It always struck me that it was remarkably cheap for a school membership - 24/7 access to all that for under £200.

Where the fuck did you hear that from. It's funded by ben through Moonclimbing. Makes no profit at all. He only built it so he could have somewhere to train for rainshadow etc.and he needed somewhere to put a moonboard.  30k+ Investment of his own money. He owns the building but could get more money through the door by renting it out at normal commercial warehouse rates.
I guess this was why the moaning from some people didn't go down well.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Steve R on February 12, 2017, 10:05:41 am
Where the fuck did you hear that from. It's funded by ben through Moonclimbing. Makes no profit at all. He only built it so he could have somewhere to train for rainshadow etc.and he needed somewhere to put a moonboard.  30k+ Investment of his own money. He owns the building but could get more money through the door by renting it out at normal commercial warehouse rates.
I guess this was why the moaning from some people didn't go down well.

I didn't hear it anywhere, just wrongly and lazily assumed there might have been some mention of affiliation/cross-over between the two since the school room was being discussed a lot on this thread.  I suppose mainly I was interested to find out the economical model of how the school room worked (often wondered as couldn't see how it'd be profitable) which you've explained - thanks.  And fair play Moon, great thing to have done.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on February 12, 2017, 10:13:36 am
39, am I right in thinking you live in Bristol? Isn't Bristol to the south as Sheffield is to the north of England in terms of climbing population? I'm absolutely sure that there are enough keen people down there to make a private facility viable. Maybe a nice project for you to start one up?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 12, 2017, 10:59:15 am
Could the BMC not fund a Welsh Schoolroom, please. Could call it Ysgol Grimpiau.

It wouldn't be a giveaway but a loan for a community type project isn't inconceivable. Loans are extended for all manner of schemes and judged on a case by case basis whether a film project, guidebook, Peak Rock history, buying a crag or refurbishing a hut.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Paul B on February 12, 2017, 06:36:29 pm
It's funded by ben through Moonclimbing. Makes no profit at all. He only built it so he could have somewhere to train for rainshadow etc.and he needed somewhere to put a moonboard.

Ben was really open with his finances (i.e. posted all of the outgoings required for set up and maintenance) on the Facebook group and as Gav said, there wasn't anything in it for him.

I don't know what you lot have got against the Mill (OK the toilet was grim but the original school loo wasn't much better)!
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Three Nine on February 12, 2017, 09:45:16 pm
39, am I right in thinking you live in Bristol? Isn't Bristol to the south as Sheffield is to the north of England in terms of climbing population? I'm absolutely sure that there are enough keen people down there to make a private facility viable. Maybe a nice project for you to start one up?

Yeah the problem is my personality.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: petejh on February 12, 2017, 09:56:07 pm
I don't know what you lot have got against the Mill (OK the toilet was grim but the original school loo wasn't much better)!

There isn't any electricity!  :shrug:  Hasn't been for over a year.

It's a good board in a shit building.

I'm wondering if you and 39 have only been when there was electricity. Nowadays you can't go when it's dark unless you fork out petrol money to fill the generator (on top of petrol money to get there an the annual fee.). It sucks.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 12, 2017, 10:49:11 pm
39, am I right in thinking you live in Bristol? Isn't Bristol to the south as Sheffield is to the north of England in terms of climbing population? I'm absolutely sure that there are enough keen people down there to make a private facility viable. Maybe a nice project for you to start one up?

Yeah the problem is my personality.

You can do it - I believe in you.

Try not to make it the Achille Ratti of Board co-ops though
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: spidermonkey09 on February 13, 2017, 01:15:35 am
So in response to the OP- I was a member through my uni club for 4 years and have used the insurance fairly regularly. Not a member this year as have been abroad the whole time but will be one of the first things I buy when I get back. I wasn't that fussed about the whole Climb Britain shenanigans, thought the reaction was overblown but also quite nice to see the BMC respond to the response. As it were!

Re: the gripes over participation.i can't really get my head around that. I haven't tried to do structured endurance training yet for any length of time but to moan about other people fucking up your timings seems monumentally selfish to me. Everyone has a right to be ambitious and to try and take their climbing forward. To complain about busy walls, although admittedly frustrating, comes across as elitist to me.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Paul B on February 13, 2017, 09:18:56 am
There isn't any electricity!  :shrug:  Hasn't been for over a year.

It was before you had proper matting (I ended up with my leg between the mats), so yes, ages.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 17, 2017, 02:03:18 pm
Re: the gripes over participation.i can't really get my head around that.

Me neither. But to my knowledge the BMC has never had increased participation as a target or overt goal.

There are no officers or programmes currently tasked with bringing newcomers into hill walking and climbing, though we do provide advice, guidance and quality assurance services for training schemes notably through our work with the Mountain Training Association.   

We deal and represent those already participating and seek to increase BMC membership of participants which isnt quite the same thing as increasing overall participation in the sense of increasing the total hillwalking and climbing population - although personally speaking that seems a worthy goal in terms of National health and wellbeing.

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: James Malloch on February 17, 2017, 02:34:00 pm
Shark – out of interest, how do the BMC measure membership respective to their goals?

You say they seek to increase the membership of participants, so would that be you want to have X% of the outdoor community signed up as members?  Therefore an increasing population of participants mean you have to continually recruit more to hit that percentage.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on February 17, 2017, 05:04:21 pm
I think a lack of participation in the "Outdoors", in general, is far worse than too much. Footpath erosion is bad, but apathy to the natural world is far worse. I think, for instance, Stanage edge would make a fucking brilliant wind farm and I always wanted to build villas along Crib Goch...


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 17, 2017, 07:08:12 pm
Shark – out of interest, how do the BMC measure membership respective to their goals?

You say they seek to increase the membership of participants, so would that be you want to have X% of the outdoor community signed up as members?  Therefore an increasing population of participants mean you have to continually recruit more to hit that percentage.

No %'s though 100,000 members has a nice ring to it - and we'll get there I'm sure. There are after all 2.1m hill walkers and climbers already. We just look at steady year on year increase as a good sign that people want to join us. The more members we have means the more potential and clout to do good things for hill walkers and climbers.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 22, 2017, 11:34:14 am
Re Participation some recent stats from Sport England:

2,138,900 Hillwalkers and Climbers (note this doesn't include "walking for leisure" ie strolling in a park):

1,967,788 hill walking/hiking
106,945 outdoor climbing
171,112 indoor climbing
 
There is an overlap because of those individuals engaged in more than one of the activities

www.sportengland.org/media/11498/active-lives-survey-yr-1-report.pdf Go to bottom of report and link to data tables and you can see how this compares to other sports - but we are clearly mainstream
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Paul B on February 22, 2017, 12:31:56 pm
You say they seek to increase the membership of participants, so would that be you want to have X% of the outdoor community signed up as members?  Therefore an increasing population of participants mean you have to continually recruit more to hit that percentage.

During the Brexit Climb Britain edition of the Yorkshire BMC meet, Dave Turnbull stood up and explicitly stated that the BMC do not seek to increase participation directly.

However, it does seem like there's some political phrasing on this topic?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on February 22, 2017, 08:29:28 pm
A difference should be made between increased partipation (frequency) by those already participating and new participants to the sport.

As for outdoor climbing Bill Gordan told Grimer that he has noticed a decline in climbers at Stanage over the years. So that's settled that  ;)

I'm assuming no is bothered about the increase in indoor climbing participants (unless they dare to venture outdoors)
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on February 22, 2017, 08:33:02 pm
A difference should be made between increased partipation (frequency) by those already participating and new participants to the sport.

As for outdoor climbing Bill Gordan told Grimer that he has noticed a decline in climbers at Stanage over the years. So that's settled that  ;)

I'm assuming no is bothered about the increase in indoor climbing participants (unless they dare to venture outdoors)

Or have structured training plans...


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Muenchener on February 22, 2017, 08:35:16 pm
I often have to queue for routes at the wall on Wednesday evening. Twunts should all feck off; nobody should be allowed in unless they are able to produce a suitably battered & mangled RP*

I otoh should have access to a continually increasing range of excellent training facilities without them having to have any means of being financially viable.

* Other pieces of vintage trad gear are available
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: northern yob on February 28, 2017, 08:42:58 pm
 https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2017/02/28/british-mountaineering-council-board-faces-no-confidence-motion  I couldn't care less either way about the rebrand, I do however have issue with the decision making process and the cosy jobs for the boys nature of the whole setup.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on February 28, 2017, 09:17:20 pm
I do however have issue with the decision making process and the cosy jobs for the boys nature of the whole setup.

Could you explain what your specific grievances are?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on February 28, 2017, 09:30:21 pm
Climb Britain was just a softener - to get the old lags used to a bit of change happening. Y'know, get those jowls warmed up for a bit of extra wobbling.

Later on this year is where its at - when the BMC gets re-branded as 'Climb Faster' - complete with a new line in instructional DVD/online videos - lycra work out attire and promotional Climb Faster branded Evoques for all BMC personnel. With additional sponsorship from Tena.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: moose on February 28, 2017, 09:52:31 pm
I often have to queue for routes at the wall on Wednesday evening. Twunts should all feck off; nobody should be allowed in unless they are able to produce a suitably battered & mangled RP*

I otoh should have access to a continually increasing range of excellent training facilities without them having to have any means of being financially viable.

* Other pieces of vintage trad gear are available

RP?! Shirley you really mean that no-one else should be allowed to share "your" facilities unless they (also) have a stop-watch, a heart-rate monitor, a weight-vest, and a very serious face  ;) 

Personally, it really gets on  my tits when white-socked gym refugees get in the way of my portable blood testing lab - I nearly choke on my lactate-buffering smoothie.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on February 28, 2017, 10:08:00 pm
Holy creatine Batman - what is the world coming to...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Doylo on February 28, 2017, 10:15:12 pm
Stanage numbers may be in decline but Parisella's is rammed. Fucking BMC.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 01, 2017, 08:00:22 am
Stanage numbers may be in decline but Parisella's is rammed. Fucking BMC.

Well, tell the other fella to move over a bit...


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on March 01, 2017, 08:36:18 am
Stanage numbers may be in decline but Parisella's is rammed. Fucking BMC.

Dogging.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Richie Crouch on March 01, 2017, 09:46:40 am
I don't know when you last went Pete, but I'm sure Derw and Hazelhoff said there was leccy now, so no need for topping up the generator with petty.

There is also some talk of a moon board installation which has met with mixed response so far and altering the rarely used right hand roof-barrel bit.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: andy popp on March 01, 2017, 05:11:46 pm
https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2017/02/28/british-mountaineering-council-board-faces-no-confidence-motion#
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: petejh on March 01, 2017, 05:14:32 pm
Where's the BMC board? And does it have leccy?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: duncan on March 02, 2017, 11:38:30 am
https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2017/02/28/british-mountaineering-council-board-faces-no-confidence-motion#

Motion of no confidence tabled by Bob Pettigrew, former BMC President (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/former-bmc-president-bob-pettigrew-awarded-mbe) (named in the CC newsletter), a follow-on from the Climb Britain rebranding. The BMC executive misjudged the views of many of the membership over this, but members were given the chance to say their bit, were listened to, and the decision reversed. I don't see the point of going over it again.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 02, 2017, 12:02:09 pm
https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2017/02/28/british-mountaineering-council-board-faces-no-confidence-motion#

Motion of no confidence tabled by Bob Pettigrew, former BMC President (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/former-bmc-president-bob-pettigrew-awarded-mbe) (named in the CC newsletter), a follow-on from the Climb Britain rebranding. The BMC executive misjudged the views of many of the membership over this, but members were given the chance to say their bit, were listened to, and the decision reversed. I don't see the point of going over it again.

It's the kind of petty, nit-picking crap; that puts people off in the first place. I see it as "Old-guard take on uppity new-guard for not doing things the way they would have".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on March 02, 2017, 12:19:08 pm
Don't really see what they hope to gain from that motion. I'm sure the top brass involved in the Climb Brexit farce will have more than learnt a lesson from that whose debacle.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: tomtom on March 02, 2017, 12:36:04 pm
I suspect that anyone involved in the running of a club/charity/not for profit organisation would not find this surprising.

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Will Hunt on March 02, 2017, 12:41:07 pm
It's got to be about more than Climb Britain though hasn't it? The exec made some decisions about Climb Britain following the usual consultation process, and then when the membership kicked off carried out a thorough consultation period and reviewed the decision. It's hardly a reason to get rid of the people involved is it?

It looks to me like old farts who don't like the concept of the BMC being involved in comps and representing indoor climbers trying to capitalise on the Climb Britain thing and oust the current set of decision makers, presumably to try and replace them with those with more conservative values. I think this would be quite damaging to the organisation in the long run.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Bonjoy on March 02, 2017, 12:57:27 pm
I can't see this motion gaining much traction. The BMC board should go along with the farce. Far from unseating anyone I'd have thought it will only serve to rally support for those being challenged.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Teaboy on March 02, 2017, 01:23:54 pm
I' m still not sure what a vote of no confidence means, is it in the elected officers or the CEO etc. presumably the latter as the former can be voted out every so often anyway?

I'll be voting against the motion, it's hard to vote no confidence for someone making and then rectifying a mistake.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: northern yob on March 02, 2017, 05:33:33 pm
The future of our sport (climbing) is competitions, more specifically youth competitions and the participation they promote. Climbers who came through the youth competitions are changing our sport nationally and internationally ( Ondra, Lama, Bransby, Houlding) The BMC should be promoting it more than it does, it should be supporting the GB team more than it does, is it not doing this because it is being held back by Hillwalkers? Is the BMC stuck in the middle of two incompatible bedfellows? Could losing the huge number of members it has through hillwalking be a blessing? Should climbers support the motion tabled by the "old gits" and make a break on our own? These are the questions i have, its a debate i think we should have.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Offwidth on March 03, 2017, 08:41:31 am
In my experiènce it's not BMC hillwalkers who seem most upset by BMC involvement in competitions, its some trad climbers. Anyone  reading the current UKC threads on the no confidence issue will recognise this.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on March 03, 2017, 09:28:06 am
 The future of climbing might be in comps if you only consider the future to revolve around upcoming top level kids and GB team winning stuff.  Neither of which are going to guarantee that in 20 years time we'll have access to any of the crags we love. 

I would argue that living on an island with an increasing population, increased uptake in climbing generally* and decreased spending on national parks the main issue for the BMC is promoting responsible use of the outdoors and an engagement in access issues. Whether there is any knock-on positive impact on that work from comps or increased participation is unknown. I would imagine that it's perfectly possible that in future years the BMC could end up sleepwalking into some total access nightmares via increased participation. Happy to be proved wrong on this.

*At the recent BMC peak meeting there was the results of some recent survey indicating that the numbers of people who do some kind of climbing activity has indeed increased of late, regardless of how busy stanage or bowden are anecdotally.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 03, 2017, 09:45:30 am
Quote
The BMC should be promoting it more than it does, it should be supporting the GB team more than it does

Agree, that's the impression I get. I'm not sure if this is due to lack of exec will or staff not delivering though. I guess a bit of both.

Quote
is it not doing this because it is being held back by Hillwalkers? Is the BMC stuck in the middle of two incompatible bedfellows? Could losing the huge number of members it has through hillwalking be a blessing?

No. In my experience hillwalkers neither have much of a voice at present, nor would they opposed. Losing members of any type would just mean less money for all.

I think the lack of enthusiasm for comps is due to them mainly being a youth thing. The youths aren't representing themselves to the BMC and their parents don't seem to be either. I think this will change in the next decade as the we get a second generation of comp climbers come through with parents who know who the scene.

Having Caff as youth officer seems great, but I suspect his remit/ passions lie in getting youths to transition from indoor to outdoor. Likewise for whatever reason the climbing wall officer doesn't seem very interested in comps, maybe they need a comps officer?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: moose on March 03, 2017, 10:00:03 am
Its an amusing quip but does it have a causal basis?

I would think it more likely that if a volunteer or in vocational employment you are in it for the cause and so therefore much more likely to be passionate about that organisation/specialism from the get-go, hence level of passionate debate (or political bitchiness depending on your viewpoint)

Aye, I suspect any truth in the "law" is due to the selection bias in academia / charities etc for committed individuals.  As the relative lack of financial compensation, compared to the work and stress involved, weeds out "the casuals".  In my experience, people who are both passionate, and a bit "chippy" from feeling undervalued, tend to be much more defensive of status and reputation. 
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: northern yob on March 03, 2017, 10:05:26 am
 The future of climbing might be in comps if you only consider the future to revolve around upcoming top level kids and GB team winning stuff.  Neither of which are going to guarantee that in 20 years time we'll have access to any of the crags we love. 
 

I don't believe the future has to revolve around upcoming top level kids or the GB team winning stuff. I do believe that the grass roots youths want to aspire, and to do that they need a focus point. Let's call it a point of sale!  Climbing is so much more than comps, I want people to experience everything it has to offer. The access point to all it has to offer for future generations will be related to comps in one way or another.

I like a deserted crag more than most, and I agree access will b our biggest issue in the future, but as selfish as I can be with my climbing I think it would be criminal to not encourage more participation. The access issue is a whole different can of worms.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 03, 2017, 10:21:15 am
Quote
the main issue for the BMC is promoting responsible use of the outdoors and an engagement in access issues

I don't see any suggestion that this would change as the main issue. Supporting comps does not have to mean diverting funds, resources or focus from access work.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on March 03, 2017, 10:23:29 am
Quote
the main issue for the BMC is promoting responsible use of the outdoors and an engagement in access issues

I don't see any suggestion that this would change as the main issue. Supporting comps does not have to mean diverting funds, resources or focus from access work.

No but it might, especially if people are labouring under the vision that comps are the future of climbing.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: northern yob on March 03, 2017, 10:33:09 am
Comps are not the future of climbing! They will however be an integral part of it. To not embrace that, I think would be short sighted.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 03, 2017, 10:41:44 am
No but it might, especially if people are labouring under the vision that comps are the future of climbing.

Not sure why they would. This isn't about a change of direction, it's just about making sure the UK team doesn't have to crowdfund for flights, for example.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Bonjoy on March 03, 2017, 11:14:16 am
Quote
The future of our sport (climbing) is competitions, more specifically youth competitions and the participation they promote.
In which sense/s do you mean that? That this is the direction climbing is going, or that this is what’s best for climbing, or both?
I agree that there will be more of these in the future and that this is no bad thing and that the BMC should represent the type of climbing participated in by its members.
I don’t agree that it’s the BMC’s job to actively drive climbing/climbers in any particular direction. I also agree with Dave that it is shouldn’t be the BMC’s job to increase climber numbers per se. I can only see problems in a yeast-like drive to increase participation for the sake of increasing participation. That’s not to say the BMC shouldn’t work to provide the opportunity for all to participate, but that’s a different thing.   

Quote
Climbers who came through the youth competitions are changing our sport nationally and internationally ( Ondra, Lama, Bransby, Houlding) The BMC should be promoting it more than it does, it should be supporting the GB team more than it does, is it not doing this because it is being held back by Hillwalkers?
I’d question the notion that the quoted climbers are a product of climbing competitions to any great extent. In the case of the two UK guys I think it had more to do with them having active climber parents who encouraged them. For sure they participated in and enjoyed comps but I doubt they wouldn’t be who they are today without them.
Don’t get me wrong I’m all for youth comps, as a fun thing for youths to do (my son’s been doing Mini-Works comps since he was five). It’s a nuanced point I guess but I think the BMC should help facilitate comps where there is a demand and an actual need of support, but I don’t think they should be actively driving demand. Likewise I agree the BMC should support the UK team. I don’t know enough about current support to judge whether the level is too low, though anecdotally I’ve heard it's the case.

 
Quote
Is the BMC stuck in the middle of two incompatible bedfellows? Could losing the huge number of members it has through hillwalking be a blessing?
I’m with Johnny Brown on that question. I’ve seen no evidence of hill walkers trying to steer the BMC towards or away from any particular agenda, which makes loss of membership fees and valued members a significant baby to be throwing out with the bath water.
 
 
Quote
Should climbers support the motion tabled by the "old gits" and make a break on our own? These are the questions i have, its a debate i think we should have.
No to the question, but a worthwhile debate nonetheless.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: northern yob on March 03, 2017, 11:37:00 am
I'm new to this so excuse the inability to copy the relevant question I'm answering.

It's the direction climbing is taking, wether it's what's best for climbing is completely subjective....depending on your personal view. I think because it's the way things are going it has to be embraced and used as a tool for good.

I think the BMC should actively promote and encourage participation. To think it shouldn't I think is rather selfish and not good for the sport we all love. It certainly changed my life, I want and think others should experience it. The more members/participation the more influence the BMC/climbers will have. Strength in numbers.

At no point did I say the quoted climbers were a product of competitions, or that they wouldn't be today who they are without them. My point was that competitions and the youth climbing comp scene were part of the way they discovered climbing, a vehicle say. Ultimately that's really my point, comps and the comp scene are a great vehicle for people to engage with climbing, that's just the start, what people do or where they go from there is up to them. I think it should be encouraged and be a higher priority for the BMC.

I hope that clears up my position a bit more, if we don't debate these things we can't change things, I'm not anti BMC, but I do think it should try and move with the times.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 03, 2017, 12:25:51 pm
Totally agree, indoor participation numbers are skyrocketing whereas (anecdotally) 'the crags are quiet'. Except on Saturday mornings at the Plantation when the minibuses from the London walls arrive.

The BMC needs to be the organisation that represents all climbers, whatever their speciality and however they get into it. As I understand it 'increasing participation' is a key requirement of receiving Sport England funding. This is because part of the rationale behind their funding is to encourage healthy living and reduce obesity/ NHS pressure.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 03, 2017, 12:59:19 pm
Totally agree, indoor participation numbers are skyrocketing whereas (anecdotally) 'the crags are quiet'. Except on Saturday mornings at the Plantation when the minibuses from the London walls arrive.

The BMC needs to be the organisation that represents all climbers, whatever their speciality and however they get into it. As I understand it 'increasing participation' is a key requirement of receiving Sport England funding. This is because part of the rationale behind their funding is to encourage healthy living and reduce obesity/ NHS pressure.

Amen.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Teaboy on March 03, 2017, 01:08:19 pm
Totally agree, indoor participation numbers are skyrocketing whereas (anecdotally) 'the crags are quiet'. Except on Saturday mornings at the Plantation when the minibuses from the London walls arrive.

And the major sport climbing crags in Yorkshire. Unfortunately, whilst there are plenty of good alternative bouldering venues to the Plantation (albeit with fewer problems) it's difficult to find routes of the quality found at the Yorkshire big three the equally mobbed Tor has some and not always accessible LPT and Diamond I suppose).
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Bonjoy on March 03, 2017, 01:48:22 pm
The BMC needs to be the organisation that represents all climbers, whatever their speciality and however they get into it. As I understand it 'increasing participation' is a key requirement of receiving Sport England funding. This is because part of the rationale behind their funding is to encourage healthy living and reduce obesity/ NHS pressure.

If that is so then there’s a pragmatic case for promoting increased participation. The question is then, is that enough of a reason? If it’s something you wouldn’t otherwise see as the BMC’s role, is the money worth the price? If the answer is no (and I don’t know if it is or not), then maybe the answer would be for a separate organisation representing indoors and comps.
Subsidy money aside I don’t see a need for the BMC to promote greater participation. It’s already growing organically at a substantial and manageable (for now) rate. Why is it desirable for this to be ramped up? What is the endpoint? How many is enough?
As mentioned above, I think inclusivity and equal opportunity is a separate question to the numbers game. It’s easy to imagine a BMC participation drive doing very well at encouraging middleclass fit people to try climbing whilst failing to motivate those who don’t exercise. We could end up increasing climbing’s share of the active populace pie without increasing the size of the pie – thereby shouldering costs related to high participation without producing substantial social good.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 03, 2017, 02:09:53 pm
Quote
Subsidy money aside I don’t see a need for the BMC to promote greater participation. It’s already growing organically at a substantial and manageable (for now) rate. Why is it desirable for this to be ramped up? What is the endpoint? How many is enough?

Steady on, no one is saying it has to be ramped up! I'm no expert, but I'm sure that if the sport is showing growth we're most of the way to fulfilling the requirement. As I understand it the funding is being reduced anyway so the onus may be reduced likewise.

If the answer is no (and I don’t know if it is or not), then maybe the answer would be for a separate organisation representing indoors and comps.

The problem I see it is that indoors is where the growth is. You could soon see a bigger organisation sucking up all the funding and the BMC's outdoor access agenda reduced to a sideshow.

Quote
I think inclusivity and equal opportunity is a separate question to the numbers game.

Totally agree. Climbing has a proud history of attracting and welcoming anyone from coal miners to landed gentry. From what I've heard of Caff's role it sounds like inclusivity is high on the agenda.

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: northern yob on March 03, 2017, 03:39:37 pm


If the answer is no (and I don’t know if it is or not), then maybe the answer would be for a separate organisation representing indoors and comps.

The problem I see it is that indoors is where the growth is. You could soon see a bigger organisation sucking up all the funding and the BMC's outdoor access agenda reduced to a sideshow.

where does the funding for the BMC's current outdoor access agenda come from? Why would another organisation suck up all the funding?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on March 03, 2017, 04:09:38 pm


If the answer is no (and I don’t know if it is or not), then maybe the answer would be for a separate organisation representing indoors and comps.

The problem I see it is that indoors is where the growth is. You could soon see a bigger organisation sucking up all the funding and the BMC's outdoor access agenda reduced to a sideshow.

where does the funding for the BMC's current outdoor access agenda come from? Why would another organisation suck up all the funding?

The majority of income is from membership fees and most members stated priority is access and conservation.

The breakdown of income and spend is here (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=1362)
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on March 03, 2017, 04:20:33 pm
people who are both passionate, and a bit "chippy" from feeling undervalued, tend to be much more defensive of status and reputation.

Good point. Not thought of that angle
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: northern yob on March 03, 2017, 04:21:04 pm


If the answer is no (and I don’t know if it is or not), then maybe the answer would be for a separate organisation representing indoors and comps.

The problem I see it is that indoors is where the growth is. You could soon see a bigger organisation sucking up all the funding and the BMC's outdoor access agenda reduced to a sideshow.

where does the funding for the BMC's current outdoor access agenda come from? Why would another organisation suck up all the funding?

The majority of income is from membership fees and most members stated priority is access and conservation.

The breakdown of income and spend is here (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=1362)

So another organisation wouldn't suck up any funding from the outdoor access agenda. It could stand on its own and give the indoor/comp scene the support it deserves whilst not affecting the good work the BMC does with regards access?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: rich d on March 03, 2017, 04:44:06 pm
The future of climbing (and therefore the BMC) will be the children coming through. I know in my small sphere as many kids indoor climbing coming from non climbing parents as I do kids who come from climbing parents. Quite of few of them would never dream of climbing outside, indeed the kids and their parents  see it as some weird, cold, wet, dangerous subset of climbing. They also seem to be completely unaware that the BMC exists or that it could potentially represent them, they are all aware of Shauna and what she's done on the comp scene though and seem inspired by this.
The element of the BMC who are going for a vote of no confidence are probably partly the reason that I'm not a member anymore(plus I'm a tight bastard)
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 03, 2017, 04:45:08 pm


If the answer is no (and I don’t know if it is or not), then maybe the answer would be for a separate organisation representing indoors and comps.

The problem I see it is that indoors is where the growth is. You could soon see a bigger organisation sucking up all the funding and the BMC's outdoor access agenda reduced to a sideshow.

where does the funding for the BMC's current outdoor access agenda come from? Why would another organisation suck up all the funding?

The majority of income is from membership fees and most members stated priority is access and conservation.

The breakdown of income and spend is here (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=1362)

So another organisation wouldn't suck up any funding from the outdoor access agenda. It could stand on its own and give the indoor/comp scene the support it deserves whilst not affecting the good work the BMC does with regards access?

Sub-committee, please.
With partial autonomy and a budget.
Use that Logo/branding that cost so much and was rejected by the Bearded-bigboot-reactionary-boys of the British Union of Mountaineering...
(*Sn**ger!* Actually I think a good dose of tradition is good for us and the old guard make some valid points).


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Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on March 03, 2017, 05:07:30 pm


If the answer is no (and I don’t know if it is or not), then maybe the answer would be for a separate organisation representing indoors and comps.

The problem I see it is that indoors is where the growth is. You could soon see a bigger organisation sucking up all the funding and the BMC's outdoor access agenda reduced to a sideshow.

where does the funding for the BMC's current outdoor access agenda come from? Why would another organisation suck up all the funding?

The majority of income is from membership fees and most members stated priority is access and conservation.

The breakdown of income and spend is here (https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Handlers/DownloadHandler.ashx?id=1362)

So another organisation wouldn't suck up any funding from the outdoor access agenda. It could stand on its own and give the indoor/comp scene the support it deserves whilst not affecting the good work the BMC does with regards access?

I'm not sure what you mean by another organisation sucking up funding. Do you mean lose out on grant funding to other organisations or lose members to other organisations? The are certainly other organisations that are involved in campaigning for access (though not with a crag access focus) such as the Ramblers Organisation but we work with them at a National level on the all-parliamentary committee. The issue with Sport England grants is there less money to go round for everyone rather than another body competing against us more effectively.

In terms of improving revenue to make up shortfalls going forward, the BMC has considerable untapped commercial potential to increase revenues which is why I was employed as Commercial Partnerships Manager 8 weeks ago to explore the options. A minority don't like some aspects of further commercialisation even though we have longstanding commercial trading operations including an online shop, travel insurance business and guidebook publication arm and longstanding sposorship arrangements with outdoor industry companies.

With regard to the 'indoor scene' the GB team and the Competitions we run both have largely untapped commercial sponsorship potential to generate their own funds especially now we are an Olympic sport. Whether that is sufficient depends what you mean by the funding "it deserves" as anything has the potential to be a bottomlesss pit of perceived requirements.

There is also a move to increase the subs by £2.50pa which doesn't sound a lot but when you times it by 83,000 members is substantial. The BMC also has substantial rainy day reserves.

Financially we are not in a bad place yet but there is a now a (partially) recognized need to focus on long term sustainable revenues if we are going to continue and grow activities and influence as we have been. Overall I don't see the core access work being under any kind of threat.   
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: northern yob on March 03, 2017, 05:21:50 pm
I'm new to this so i haven't quite grasped the quote thing, Adam referred to sucking up funding in relation to bonjoys comment about an indoor/comp organisation. i was merely pointing out that based on what you said about funding the BMC's access agenda such an organisation wouldn't affect the funding which goes towards access. Does that make sense?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: northern yob on March 03, 2017, 05:32:10 pm
With regard to the GB team and the funding it deserves, as Adam pointed out a start would be sending them to competitions. Rather than them having to crowd fund in order to attend, especially given that as you said financially the BMC is not in a bad place.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on March 03, 2017, 05:37:49 pm
I'm new to this so i haven't quite grasped the quote thing, Adam referred to sucking up funding in relation to bonjoys comment about an indoor/comp organisation. i was merely pointing out that based on what you said about funding the BMC's access agenda such an organisation wouldn't affect the funding which goes towards access. Does that make sense?

Ok Adam said: "The problem I see it is that indoors is where the growth is. You could soon see a bigger organisation sucking up all the funding and the BMC's outdoor access agenda reduced to a sideshow."

I'm not quite sure where he has formed this alarmist view. Even if this did happen I dont see how it would decrease the level of our access work as long as outdoor climbers and hillwalkers who care about access continue to sign up as BMC members. 

Re forum quoting etc plenty of easy to follow guidance here: http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/page,wiki_help_ukb.html
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on March 03, 2017, 05:45:58 pm
With regard to the GB team and the funding it deserves, as Adam pointed out a start would be sending them to competitions. Rather than them having to crowd fund in order to attend, especially given that as you said financially the BMC is not in a bad place.

The crowd funding (which UKB supported) was due to a major sponsor going bust.
 
Currently some athletes are supported to go to international comps to varied extents. I would be working to increase sponsorship to enable that support to be widened. However for all 80 athletes of the teams and development squads and 20 managers and chaperones for youth climbers to all be paid to attend any international event irrespective of form would be a huge bill and even with sponsorship income and the Olympics etc is currently an unrealistic expectation based on my research of comparative funding of other niche sports. If Climbing became a permanent Olympic fixture then that would up the ante considerably for the sport and the climbing industry.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: northern yob on March 03, 2017, 05:56:46 pm
Is climbing a niche sport anymore? I agree sending them all to everything would be insane. Could the BMC do more with regards funding, i think so.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 03, 2017, 05:59:40 pm
Quote
Why would another organisation suck up all the funding?

I meant the Sport England funding, long term. I don't see any benefit of two organisations, the long term result will be one will become irrelevant.

Quote
the GB team and the Competitions we run both have largely untapped commercial sponsorship potential to generate their own funds especially now we are an Olympic sport

Suspect yob knows more than I do about this, but there have been some quite specific BMC failures in this department.

Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on March 03, 2017, 06:03:26 pm
Could the BMC do more with regards funding, i think so.

I agree.

But when the majority of members put Access work first and Comp climbing last as a priority (admittedly a more uptodate survey is required) where do you think the money should be allocated proprtionately?

If more indoor and comp oriented climbers signed up as BMC members then priorities will change. Chicken and egg I know.  In the meantime commercial sponsorship is a potential way forward.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on March 03, 2017, 06:09:42 pm
Suspect yob knows more than I do about this, but there have been some quite specific BMC failures in this department.

I'd rather not know and just start with a clean slate. I am very conscious that there has to be internal support and accountability in place for us to meet our obligations to Sponsors before signing anything up.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on March 03, 2017, 06:11:24 pm
Okay fair enough. Just make sure your intended sponsors don't get bored and wander off in the meantime.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on March 03, 2017, 06:13:06 pm
Okay fair enough. Just make sure your intended sponsors don't get bored and wander off in the meantime.

If you have specific companies in mind can you drop me a PM
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: mrjonathanr on March 03, 2017, 06:22:30 pm
If Climbing became a permanent Olympic fixture then that would up the ante considerably for the sport and the climbing industry.

Will charm an audience but still a minority interest so will be unlikely I expect.  Even then revenue would be heavily skewed by medal prospects ie could experience some success and then drop off sport England radar if other sports seem a better medal prospect, so impacting on public profile. I'd be surprised if it really became established..
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 03, 2017, 07:26:35 pm
If Climbing became a permanent Olympic fixture then that would up the ante considerably for the sport and the climbing industry.

Will charm an audience but still a minority interest so will be unlikely I expect.  Even then revenue would be heavily skewed by medal prospects ie could experience some success and then drop off sport England radar if other sports seem a better medal prospect, so impacting on public profile. I'd be surprised if it really became established..

Quite. Look what happened to the British Weightlifting Federation.


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Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Teaboy on March 03, 2017, 07:28:21 pm
What did happen to the British Weight Lifting Federation?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 03, 2017, 07:48:19 pm
What did happen to the British Weight Lifting Federation?

Sorry, assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups, it was widely reported at the time. Lack of Olympic medals, lead to:

http://britishweightlifting.org/statement-british-weight-lifting-uk-sport-tokyo-2020-funding-decision/

Whether that was appealed or reversed, I know not.


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Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: T_B on March 04, 2017, 07:52:41 am
I suspect it's inevitable that indoor climbers and comps will end up with a new representative body, separate to the BMC. It will be more commercially focussed, as the sponsorship opportunities associated with this new, mass audience are obvious. Indoor climbing is so far removed from mountaineering, hill walking and the outdoors, it seems artificial to me to pretend we're talking about the same user group. That will leave the BMC to focus on what its members want I.e. Access, without all this agonising over what their responsibility to comps/indoor climbing is. Indoor climbing will be even further removed from what we know as climbing in a few years as walls become a mix of climbing/gym/parkour etc.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Oldmanmatt on March 04, 2017, 09:18:08 am
https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2017/02/28/british-mountaineering-council-board-faces-no-confidence-motion#

The more I think about this, the less I understand it.

It's not like the old gits have Facebook, after all...

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170304/80b1c824f3b14bd94bc8e384864691d0.jpg)


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. I always forget to put those smiley things...
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on March 04, 2017, 09:54:04 am
I suspect it's inevitable that indoor climbers and comps will end up with a new representative body, separate to the BMC. It will be more commercially focussed, as the sponsorship opportunities associated with this new, mass audience are obvious. Indoor climbing is so far removed from mountaineering, hill walking and the outdoors, it seems artificial to me to pretend we're talking about the same user group. That will leave the BMC to focus on what its members want I.e. Access, without all this agonising over what their responsibility to comps/indoor climbing is. Indoor climbing will be even further removed from what we know as climbing in a few years as walls become a mix of climbing/gym/parkour etc.

I don't see it as inevitable. There are a number of alternative options. It occurs to me that you could retain the BMC as is at the centre and have wholly owned closely managed, subsidiary bodies reporting  in. The indoor body (perhaps called Climb Britain?) is the NGB for competition climbing and manages the GB Team. The Access side could be more formally grouped under the Access & Conservation Trust which is a BMC Charity which possibly is underutilised currently in terms of its charitable status. The Commercial side could be more formally defined as separate wholly owned limited company with certain financial benefits to the limited compoany status related to VAT reclaim. The Mountain Training, Club support could be grouped under an Associates arm which supports those organisations that want an affiliation. The overall strategy could be to aim to place the place the BMC at the centre of the hillwalking and climbing communities and therefore be the organisation that hillwalkers and climbers naturally want to join which is the stated mission. Each body would reach out to the community in different ways and different audiences and the bodies would form separate identities and goals and growth strategies appropriate to their area which are more easily understood internally and externally.

Im sure there are alternatives. Many schemes and structures are good in theory. The execution, change management and ongoing management and dealing with unintended consequences are the things which will ultimately make things a success or otherwise.   
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: El Mocho on March 04, 2017, 10:01:16 am
I suspect it's inevitable that indoor climbers and comps will end up with a new representative body, separate to the BMC. It will be more commercially focussed, as the sponsorship opportunities associated with this new, mass audience are obvious. Indoor climbing is so far removed from mountaineering, hill walking and the outdoors, it seems artificial to me to pretend we're talking about the same user group. That will leave the BMC to focus on what its members want I.e. Access, without all this agonising over what their responsibility to comps/indoor climbing is. Indoor climbing will be even further removed from what we know as climbing in a few years as walls become a mix of climbing/gym/parkour etc.

I don't necessary agree, I think that as things stand it could well be the case but I think this is something the BMC should try to stop from happening. To paraphrase Northern Yob "Indoor climbing is the future if British climbing" is probably true to an extent. I was in the walls in London a few weeks back and chatting to people. One of the last Sats in January was the busiest day the Castle has had, think between 1,200 and 1,400 people through the door. That same day the other walls also had some of their busiest days. People estimated there were around 10,000 people climbing in Greater London that day. A lot of these people don't have a great interest in going outdoors but I don't think this is because they don't like the idea more that they don't really understand it. The walls themselves seem to do very little promotion of outdoor climbing (and why would they) and the BMC/local climbing clubs have an incredibly low profile at the walls. Is this a problem? I think it is for a couple of reasons: "...London mini bus arriving at plantation on a sat morning..." the (indoor/new) climbers who do find out about outdoor climbing tend to hear about the honeypots, they watch the online vids of Dave cruising the Joker and think "I'll have some of that", they don't necessary have the skills to go and do routes at Stoney/Almscliff/Cromlech let alone Gogarth, Scaffell, Pembroke... so these convenient, well documented and safe/bouldering venues get busier. At the same time there are probably fewer and fewer people learning to climb outside - as a kid I started climbing outside (my parents were climbers + pre the rise of indoor walls) but for kids/new climbers now the indoor walls will be a massive draw. More climbers climbing indoors, more climbers bouldering at Plantation etc, fewer climbers with trad skills and appreciation of getting shit scared, trad crags getting overgrown, routes dirty, more people going on bouldering trips to SA, fewer people going chossaneering on the Lleyn, Malham full to bursting point, insitue draws left all over the place, access issues due to overcrowding/insitue gear/litter/lamping sessions at all the popular crags from people who maybe lack the education on outdoor climbing. I would love to see more people at the more obscure trad crags (invested interest: I work for a gear manufacturer), love to hear about Aidean Roberts (insert next "the future" name here) onsighting all Caffs routes and declaring them piss, would love to hear about even more members of the BMC declaring access to crags being the most important thing. The future Houlding (and whoever the other 3 were) is undoubtedly in a climbing wall somewhere but if we're not carefull that's where they might stay. The BMC should engage with the wall culture, support comps but also promote the diversity of climbing, provide inspiration about trad, bouldering, winter climbing, sport... and most importantly provide a route for the young indoor climbers, who want to, to get climbing outside. What Caff is doing is great but it's only a tiny amount and he'll be working less next year.

Sure some crags are busy but a) encourage people to the crags which aren't and b) if you don't like lots of people there are plenty of crags you can go to which need more traffic.

Sorry, maybe had too strong a coffee
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on March 04, 2017, 10:14:59 am
Grest post. Keep drinking strong coffee

Sure some crags are busy but a) encourage people to the crags which aren't and b) if you don't like lots of people there are plenty of crags you can go to which need more traffic.

The ultimate pithy riposte to those who whine about increased participation  :clap2:
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: cheque on March 04, 2017, 10:45:14 am
(indoor/new) climbers who do find out about outdoor climbing tend to hear about the honeypots, they watch the online vids of Dave cruising the Joker and think "I'll have some of that", they don't necessary have the skills to go and do routes at Stoney/Almscliff/Cromlech let alone Gogarth, Scaffell, Pembroke... so these convenient, well documented and safe/bouldering venues get busier. At the same time there are probably fewer and fewer people learning to climb outside

 More climbers climbing indoors, more climbers bouldering at Plantation etc, fewer climbers with trad skills and appreciation of getting shit scared, trad crags getting overgrown, routes dirty, more people going on bouldering trips to SA, fewer people going chossaneering on the Lleyn, Malham full to bursting point, insitue draws left all over the place, access issues due to overcrowding/insitue gear/litter/lamping sessions at all the popular crags from people who maybe lack the education on outdoor climbing....

The BMC should engage with the wall culture, support comps but also promote the diversity of climbing, provide inspiration about trad, bouldering, winter climbing, sport...

:agree: This is basically a post I've tried to write on this thread a number of times but failed.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Bonjoy on March 04, 2017, 10:58:52 am
Grest post. Keep drinking strong coffee

Sure some crags are busy but a) encourage people to the crags which aren't and b) if you don't like lots of people there are plenty of crags you can go to which need more traffic.

The ultimate pithy riposte to those who whine about increased participation  :clap2:

I guess youd lump me with the whiners. I actually agree with all of El Mocho's post. It boils down to quality rather than quantity for quantities' sake.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: northern yob on March 04, 2017, 11:51:51 am
Amen to that Ben! I really hope the BMC gets its shit together, action rather than hollow promises... It has to start to engage with the "indoor" crowd, otherwise a split might become inevitable.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: danm on March 04, 2017, 12:02:12 pm
+1 Ben.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: dave on March 04, 2017, 02:07:14 pm
If only a video of Dave cruising the Joker actually existed.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: shark on March 16, 2017, 05:19:08 pm
Just did a basic split into a new thread as most subsequent posts related to the No Confidence motion which I also added as a front page article.

New thread here:  http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,27926.msg547374/topicseen.html#new
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: lagerstarfish on March 22, 2017, 02:17:32 pm
are Climb Britain t-shirts available yet?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: T_B on May 16, 2017, 08:57:14 am
Is the BMC really not interested in promoting climbing etc to the masses?

If so, then why do they create this kind of content?

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/top-six-spicy-scrambles

I don't believe for a minute they are only interested in trying to get those who already climb/scramble/hill walk to become members.

An update on the 'Mend our Mountains' campaign would seem overdue, if anyone is reading this!
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on May 16, 2017, 09:31:15 am
I feel pretty up to date on Mend our Mountains. Kinder, Exmoor and Brecon work already done, others ongoing:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/articles/tag/mend%20our%20mountains

I seem to remember the biggest circle on the Venn diagram of BMC members self-identified as hillwalkers. How isn't that content aimed at them?
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: T_B on May 16, 2017, 09:41:17 am
I seem to remember the biggest circle on the Venn diagram of BMC members self-identified as hillwalkers. How isn't that content aimed at them?

So who is this targeted at? BMC members who are self-identified as lazy boulderers?

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/8-tips-to-get-ready-for-hillwalking-spring-bst

That's excellent about Mend our Mountains. I had (wrongly it seems) assumed that the actual work had been held up by red tape etc. Odd that there's hardly been any follow up since the campaign a year ago.
Title: Re: Why aren't you a BMC member ?
Post by: Johnny Brown on May 16, 2017, 10:15:27 am
Umm, again how is it not content for hillwalkers?

Maybe they've been a bit remiss in not emailing MOM updates directly to contributors, I don't know. Plenty via @BMC_Walk on twitter.
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