"The most useful/ popular modern grade would, I suppose be 7C(!)"
Agreed
"So do we agree 'standard' E4 is around 5c/6a? So we are fine with going down to the 4c/5a grade in extreme cases - bold, sustained, loose, poor protection."
Again, agreed.
Not done any E4 4c's but done plenty of things that aren't too far off. For those who haven't seen such things, then since we're talking hypotheticals, imagine kicking steps in an 80 degree slope of "rock" resembling the shifting sands on a sand dune with no gear and a pit of tigers underneath you and you'll get the idea. There's plenty of stuff in the UK that's not that far off that hilariously. Routes certainly doesn't need to have much in the way of technical rock climbing to feel like they are overall E4 or E6 or much harder.
"But if we go up the same amount - to 6c/7a - it's somehow unacceptable? Why?"
Because for the E grade to actually have any use, it needs to be the
overall grade of the route. Which includes physical difficulty. That works fine for the examples above when there's hardly any physical difficulty but huge amounts of other skills required and danger. But if it's the overall grade of a route, then something that's Fr 9c can't ever be E4. Or something that's Fr8a for that matter. Completely safe Fr8a cracks are overall considered overall to be E7. For E7 to mean anything, then completely safe Fr8a shorter routes also need to be E7. Giving them E4 completely undermines the foundation of what E grades are meant to represent.
"Your E6 or 7 is a bizarre attempt to translate into some overall sport grade."
No, it really isn't. It's an attempt to make E grades actually mean something and be used consistently. And the only thing that makes sense for it to mean is the overall grade of the route. Which includes the difficulty and the danger and everything else. You're trying to eliminate or significantly reduce the importance of the physical difficulty bit on a particular subset of routes which undermines E grades entirely. Just because that's how it's been historically doesn't make it a good idea. It's why there's still endless ridiculous debates about this subject, a little like the one we're currently having.
"everyone seems to be focus on the two tiny flat end of the bell curve"
This same shit comes up time and time again for hard routes in the news, which is why people care. Might be 2% of overall volume of routes, but it's the 2% that's often in the news and hence the routes people often talk about.
"Is this a generational thing?"
You might have a couple of years on me, but not much more I don't think.
"I really can’t get my head round why lots of people have such a problem with it or are against them"
Not got anything against them at all. Precisely the opposite - I'm trying to defend them as I think that if used properly they are the best way to grade trad routes.
I'm just pointing out that they need to be used consistently to avoid all the criticism that gets thrown at them.
"The only issue I can see here is people who think of themselves as 'E4 climbers' might get their ego pricked"
No. The main issue as far as I'm concerned is that at the top end, hard trad grades in the news have become a joke, as noone can agree on what they are supposed to be representing.
Which makes the UK the laughing stock of the world when people can't agree whether something is E8 or E11 - ie: whether it should be world standard news, or something for a few people to go "nice one" to their mate in the pub.
"E grade represents the overall difficulty, except when it doesn't, at which point it may not may not encompass the difficulty of the hard bit to some extent (but not a full extent, I'm still not clear on this) depending on whether the FA grew up in Pembroke or Sheffield. Clear?"
Indeed.
The Egraders were right in terms of their aims - ie: E grades could and should be a lot more consistent. They just stratospherically messed up the implementation.
What they should have done was posted something about how E grades should and could be used consistently.
And then put their heads together and spent some time writing a proper graded list for all routes ever given E9 or harder. That's the only way of actually sorting out hard trad grades and making them consistent, not some silly gimmick on a website. And if they'd even started that on a piece of paper, they'd have realised that their translations were a million miles away from reality and would involve regrading the vast majority of routes in the UK.
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