UKBouldering.com

the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: shark on November 24, 2021, 12:57:18 pm

Title: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 24, 2021, 12:57:18 pm
I’d always thought it was Seb doing Snap Decision in 97 as at the time it was reported as the first.

Following a discussion on ukc I’ve been doing a bit of googling. Pollitt’s second ascent of the Bells is said to have been onsight here (https://www.v-publishing.co.uk/blog/v-publishing-blog/the-bells-the-bells/) but I’d be surprised if it didn’t involve some pre-inspection, cleaning or beta from Redhead. Anybody know?

Also if Strawberries is E7 (surely!) then Stefan Glowacz’s onsight ascent in 1987 (https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/strawberries_-_a_british_on_sight-1117) has to be a potential contender.

Any others?

To some extent this is evaluating the past through modern day spectacles as the strict understanding of onsight and it’s covetousness as a style didn’t really become a thing till the 90’s with sport climbing or at least that was my impression at the time. Certainly onsight and flashed were often confused (anyone remember the onsight flash?)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Johnny Brown on November 24, 2021, 01:16:01 pm
Quote
Certainly onsight and flashed were often confused (anyone remember the onsight flash?)

Potentially huge tangent, but they were crystal clear as explained to me in the nineties. Flash meaning simply first go, onisght meaning without beta. So 'onsight flash' makes perfect sense. It was only in the noughties that flash evolved (through confusion I think) to mean specifically a beta flash, and anything other than an onsight flash became dumped into groundup.

I'd be very surprised in Seb did the first in '97, they were becoming common in '99 when I did my first.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: teestub on November 24, 2021, 01:41:48 pm
My money would have been on Jerry, just looking at Revelations, it has him down as onsight solo of Linden (E6) in ‘83 and then The Phoenix (13a so E6ish?) in ‘84. It looks like he just got psyched on sport and bouldering in the late ‘80’s though.

Think you dropped this JB 🏅
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Duncan campbell on November 24, 2021, 01:48:03 pm
I can't find it anywhere now but I swear I read something about Dougie Hall doing one in very good style (whether it was a pure o/s i cant say) maybe up at Dove Crag? But tbh maybe that was on an E6 but the bir of writing as a whole was about the E7s.

Will Remus start making a list for this? Finally we are out of the redpoint lists and onto the good ones! (eh Mr Fiend!?)  :lol:
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Steve R on November 24, 2021, 02:01:36 pm
From a bit UKC logbook spying, Mike Owen has quite a few E7s logged as OS from 89/90.  Looks like he was contemporary with Twid Turner so guess he might've been at the same sort of level too? https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=94701&sort=g&country=0&crag=0&gradetype=0&partner=0&year=0&season=0&pitches=0&nresults=50&pg=1
Maybe Seb's ascent of SD was reported as first E7 OS on grit?  :shrug:
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: teestub on November 24, 2021, 02:07:30 pm
Maybe Seb's ascent of SD was reported as first E7 OS on grit?  :shrug:

Probably first person from Sheffield
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Will Hunt on November 24, 2021, 02:10:30 pm
Maybe Seb's ascent of SD was reported as first E7 OS on grit?  :shrug:

Probably first person from Sheffield

Does anything else count?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Teaboy on November 24, 2021, 02:30:44 pm
I’d be surprised if it didn’t involve some pre-inspection, cleaning or beta from Redhead. Anybody know?
I obviously don't know but he wrote an article in High magazine on it at the time and it was certainly clear in that that there was no pre-inspection. I don't think the route was in a guide at the time so he probably had a first hand account from JR of the climb but beta is a continuum so I don't think that in itself would be disqualifying.

Quote
Certainly onsight and flashed were often confused (anyone remember the onsight flash?)

Again, going back to the magazines of the day, Mick Ryan wrote an article in OTE about 1989 (in the context of sport climbing) and that was the first time I was aware of the distinction.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 24, 2021, 02:33:05 pm
Potentially huge tangent, but they were crystal clear as explained to me in the nineties. Flash meaning simply first go, onisght meaning without beta.

About as fragile as crystal too when what is considered as constituting beta varies.

I think it’s fair to say that the bar was lower in the 80’s. I know climbers who watched someone top rope the route before climbing it then considered they’d onsighted it.

I’m sure others have felt they’ve done a route onsight by the mores of the day that might not stand up to the modern standard of no beta. Factor in hazy memories as well and the topic is  :worms:

From Stefan’s testimony it’s clear that he’s onsighted Strawberries in the modern sense. Pollitt on the Bells could be another. Phil Davidson on Deathwish in 1982 has been mentioned to me as another contender.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: petejh on November 24, 2021, 02:34:21 pm
Maybe Seb's ascent of SD was reported as first E7 OS on grit?  :shrug:

Probably first person from Sheffield

Does anything else count?
Apparently not Will. Has it ever? Pre-internet the only ascents that existed were those reported to mags. Post internet, insta.


Craig Parnaby may have onsighted Zero (e7) in the late 80s, along with others around the grade. According to one of my climbing partners who used to climb with him.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Will Hunt on November 24, 2021, 02:39:14 pm
beta from Redhead.

Is JR capable of giving beta? I can only imagine a stream of consciousness causing the aspirant leader to think that all the holds would be shaped like knobs and fannies.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: edshakey on November 24, 2021, 03:04:15 pm
beta from Redhead.

Is JR capable of giving beta? I can only imagine a stream of consciousness causing the aspirant leader to think that all the holds would be shaped like knobs and fannies.

Does knowing what type of energy a rock has count as beta?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on November 24, 2021, 03:34:14 pm
I’d always thought it was Seb doing Snap Decision in 97 as at the time it was reported as the first.

Interestingly I just had a look on the ukc logbooks and Seb has logged it in 1995 and says "1st grit E7 onsight", so I guess he probably thought/thinks there's other E7 onsights which came before.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: andy popp on November 24, 2021, 03:51:29 pm
I’m sure others have felt they’ve done a route onsight by the mores of the day that might not stand up to the modern standard of no beta. Factor in hazy memories as well and the topic is  :worms:

I "onsighted" The Salmon in the early 90s. Though I feel like I onsighted it (and I did all the hard climbing fully onsight), I had some very inconsequential beta for the easy climbing low down and it likely wouldn't pass muster as an onsight today. I wonder how much that is true of some of the other claims from the 80s/early 90s? However, I think there's no way the first E7 OS was as late as '97.

Didn't Steve Mayers OS some E7 FAs on The Range? And what about Vickers?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: cheque on November 24, 2021, 04:09:06 pm
About as fragile as crystal too when what is considered as constituting beta varies.

Onsight’s a virtually indefinable term, everyone has their own idea of what it is. Some people think you can’t onsight a route if you’ve read the guidebook description or belayed someone on it, others have some old school definition which seems to simply mean “didn’t top rope it first”, some think climbing down to the floor is the same as being lowered off etc.

Going off whether people have logged ascents as onsight on UKC is dodgy because there’s almost as many methods of using it as there are climbers- the digital equivalent of using different coloured pens or symbols when ticking a guidebook.  :lol: At least one of the people I have listed as a partner on there logs every single route they climb as onsight regardless of the circumstances.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: dunnyg on November 24, 2021, 04:11:21 pm
Is that Will Hunt? I heard he onsights routes he's top roped twice and fallen off on the redpoint 3 times. Logbook of lies, that.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: andy moles on November 24, 2021, 04:19:37 pm
I think it's a reasonably well definable term as long as it's acknowledged that there are different shades of onsight, and that the difference between a very 'pure' onsight and a chalked-to-fuck one where you've had a good gander from every possible angle before tying in and the guidebook description is on the generous side is potentially greater than the difference between the latter and a minimal-beta flash.

Something in one corner of a box may sit closer to something in a corner of the box next to it than something in the opposite corner of the same box, kinda thing...  :-\

Though I also think the settling of these rigid style categories has a fair bit to answer for in fucking up some people's enjoyment of climbing.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 24, 2021, 04:30:36 pm
I’d always thought it was Seb doing Snap Decision in 97 as at the time it was reported as the first.

Interestingly I just had a look on the ukc logbooks and Seb has logged it in 1995 and says "1st grit E7 onsight", so I guess he probably thought/thinks there's other E7 onsights which came before.

Yes - I think it must have just been a claim for grit rather than all rock types and I’ve misremembered
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Neil F on November 24, 2021, 04:40:55 pm

Onsight’s a virtually indefinable term, everyone has their own idea of what it is. Some people think you can’t onsight a route if you’ve read the guidebook description or belayed someone on it, others have some old school definition which seems to simply mean “didn’t top rope it first”, some think climbing down to the floor is the same as being lowered off etc.


I log all the routes where I've belayed someone on the line just before I did it, as 'Flashed with beta' (assuming I did actually flash it!), as attentative belaying and onsighting are mutually exclusive in my book.

I do remember once belaying Jon de Montjoye on one of his routes at Falaise du Renard near Vallorcine.  Jon was great at giving me copious beta, which naturally I lapped up, giving me a ticklist which somewhat exaggerated my capability. Jon's girlfriend expressed a degree of scepticism at my achievements, so when I came to belay Jon on Sikapath, I sat on the ground, well within her view, deliberately facing out from the crag.  I did get my on sight tick on that one, though Jon told me I did it all wrong  :lol:

Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Banana finger on November 24, 2021, 04:49:04 pm
Surely knowing the grade counts as beta?  ;)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fiend on November 24, 2021, 05:38:51 pm
Will Remus start making a list for this? Finally we are out of the redpoint lists and onto the good ones! (eh Mr Fiend!?)  :lol:

I might have to take a cold shower!!

Such a remuslist has been a long time coming.

Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 24, 2021, 05:50:48 pm
My money's on Dougie Hall.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: petejh on November 24, 2021, 06:37:24 pm
Quote from: me
Craig Parnaby may have onsighted Zero (e7) in the late 80s, along with others around the grade. According to one of my climbing partners who used to climb with him.

It may have been a little later actually, out of curiosity just unearthed this great article from stone country press (I hope they don't mind me sharing here): https://www.stonecountrypress.co.uk/2009/08/unsponsored-heroes-craig-parnaby_12.html

(off topic, have standards really improved in trad? I'm tended to think not).


''You never know who your heroes are going to be in the climbing world. They end up being people entirely different from the abstracted heroes you started with in the climbing mags - the ones photographed doing crazy solos and hand-stands against the cliff faces. If you are lucky enough, they are people you climb with for a few years. They often disappear from the climbing world into real life and don't come back, which only makes their legend stronger. For me, Craig Parnaby was one of these vanishing legends.

Craig was inimitable and his ability on rock was terrifying. I first met him at the Bowderstone in the early 90's, a 'beginner' doing laps on the classic 6a crack. He was a youth from Coniston in the Lakes, with Gecko hands and lithe forearms, reminding me instantly of Ron Fawcett's build - you could just tell he had the genetics. Even as a beginner he moved on the rock like a bent bow, always tensioned, never loose and arse-out-the-window like the rest of us. He came to Glasgow, ostensibly to study medicine, but he set about dismantling reputations in his own casual and unassuming manner. Over his few years of climbing he onsighted some of Britain's hardest rock climbs, never once pre-inspecting or seeking beta, he just got on with it. One weekend he went down to Wales and onsighted The Bells, The Bells, saying it was 'rather easy', in the manner of a gifted schoolboy rolling his eyes at simplistic homework.

In 1996 I had my first experience of the 'Parnaby Day'. A Parnaby 'evening' would go something like this: drive to Cambusbarron in his beat-up Panda, do Grace Under Pressure, Big Country Dreams, Purr Blind Doomster, Quantum Grunt & The Crowd, go home, eat a spoonful of pasta, sleep, get up, phone someone and ask if they fancied the Coe. I said I did, but I would drive. On reaching the Coe I asked if he had enough lunch for two, I'd forgotten mine. 'Yes, I have plenty of food, John...' He saw the Tunnel Wall and said 'that looks rather good, we could climb there this morning'. He 'warmed up' by onsighting Uncertain Emotions, Fated Path and Admission, at one point down-climbing a crux because he 'hadn't done it right'. Then it was off to the Freak-Out wall to despatch Crocodile, Jimmy Blacksmith and Supernova before I wilted as a second and dragged him away to the pub. Craig hated the pub, it was missing good climbing time and he sat there flicking through guide-books 'oohing' at E7 6a's. Oh, and the food he brought that day? Two packs of Sunmaid raisins (the wee kids' boxes) and four Ryvita...

Despite his meagre appetite, Craig ate up the climbing grades like a mumbly-mouthed Pacman eating dots. He began to travel and climb widely, doing big repeats, taking the odd legendary fall, getting back on, doing the E6 or whatever, always persistent, always onsight, taking his time. His favourite trick was to arrive at climbing wall bouldering comps, climb to the crux, mutter a little, downclimb to the starting jug, shake-out and repeat this until he had solved the problem or the bored queue behind him moved on. He was barred from future boulder comps.

None of us could keep up with Craig's stamina and hunger. He was not afraid to take a fall or two either. One time at Auchinstarry, after a warm-up on Nijinski, he fell off the direct start to Blade Runner, landing on his head on the plinth below. He rubbed his head a little, inexplicably said sorry to the belayer and despatched the route with one piece of gear in disdain. He continued to motor through the bigger British extremes until his parents took away his ropes and gear and insisted he concentrate on his studies. He dutifully packed away climbing like a worn pair of boots and moved on with his career. But hell, he was a good climber...''
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Duncan campbell on November 24, 2021, 07:05:11 pm
So legendary. Wonder exactly how true all that stuff is.

He certainly sounds like he was at the cutting edge BITD.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: webbo on November 24, 2021, 07:08:08 pm
My money's on Dougie Hall.
I remember Dougie telling me a story which I’m sure I have recounted on another thread. He was talking to Pete Gomersall and Dougie said he’d been to Blue Scar and done a route up the wall where Death Wish, Great white go. Pete went a bit pale and enquired when Dougie had done it. Doug gave a date and Pete then said he done this route the week before.
Doug in recounting the tale said this was strange as it was heavily chalked to crux then no chalk above. Doug with a wink said I know who did it first.
I wish I could remember which route it was.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: petejh on November 24, 2021, 07:11:40 pm
So legendary. Wonder exactly how true all that stuff is.

He certainly sounds like he was at the cutting edge BITD.

The person I sometimes climb with confirms CP was an exceptional talent and basically went around onsighting everything, or trying to! I think I remember he told me that he held his ropes on onsight of Zero but I’d need to confirm.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 24, 2021, 07:13:26 pm
The guy I sometimes climb with confirms CP was truly an exceptional talent and basically went around onsighting everything, or trying to! I think I remember he told me that he held his ropes on onsight of Zero but I’d need to confirm.

Suicide Wall?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: petejh on November 24, 2021, 07:13:52 pm
Yep
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 24, 2021, 07:34:28 pm
Scary.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Neil F on November 24, 2021, 07:49:00 pm

I think I remember he told me that he held his ropes on onsight of Zero but I’d need to confirm.


I've got a Zero story, from 19/6/83.

I'd gone to Suicide Wall with Tim Freeman.  I led Capital Punnishment in one pitch, which was great, and then we went soloing.  We tandem soloed Route 1 and Route 2 and I then soloed Death Row, before deciding that was probably enough soloing for one day...

Andy Pollitt was on the crag, and had spent all day on Zero.  I think he'd abbed and cleaned it, and then tried to lead it, but got shut down by a sequence at half height.  He abbed it again, still couldn't see how to do it and declared it impossible, saying something must have fallen off it since Livesey's first ascent. (I think Andy was going for the first repeat).

Anyway, for some strange reason Andy asked me if I would have a go on a rope, just to confirm his conclusion, and some other strange reason, I agreed.

Much to Andy's surprise (and my disappointment) I did it first go.  Andy was surprised because he thought it was impossible, and I was disappointed because I though it was actually only 6a and I'd lost the opportunity to on sight something which felt like it should have been a realistic possibility.

But I'll give you one guess as to who it was that got his act together, returning the following day to grab the coveted second ascent (and further cement his rock star reputation...)  :lol:
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Duncan campbell on November 24, 2021, 07:51:28 pm

I think I remember he told me that he held his ropes on onsight of Zero but I’d need to confirm.


I've got a Zero story, from 19/6/83.

I'd gone to Suicide Wall with Tim Freeman.  I led Capital Punnishment in one pitch, which was great, and then we went soloing.  We tandem soloed Route 1 and Route 2 and I then soloed Death Row, before deciding that was probably enough soloing for one day...

Andy Pollitt was on the crag, and had spent all day on Zero.  I think he'd abbed and cleaned it, and then tried to lead it, but got shut down by a sequence at half height.  He abbed it again, still couldn't see how to do it and declared it impossible, saying something must have fallen off it since Livesey's first ascent. (I think Andy was going for the first repeat).

Anyway, for some strange reason Andy asked me if I would have a go on a rope, just to confirm his conclusion, and some other strange reason, I agreed.

Much to Andy's surprise (and my disappointment) I did it first go.  Andy was surprised because he thought it was impossible, and I was disappointed because I though it was actually only 6a and I'd lost the opportunity to on sight something which felt like it should have been a realistic possibility.

But I'll give you one guess as to who it was that got his act together, returning the following day to grab the coveted second ascent (and further cement his rock star reputation...)  :lol:

You’ll always be a rock start to me Neil!  :)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on November 24, 2021, 08:20:23 pm
Will Remus start making a list for this? Finally we are out of the redpoint lists and onto the good ones! (eh Mr Fiend!?)  :lol:

I might have to take a cold shower!!

Such a remuslist has been a long time coming.

I'm very tempted but it's particularly difficult if you try and narrow down the exact style of ascent. Maybe if we could work out some easy to judge criteria for inclusion on the list?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: petejh on November 24, 2021, 08:31:22 pm
That's a great story Neil! The fine margins between who ends up being considered one of the 'elite' or the 'chasing pack'.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Duncan campbell on November 24, 2021, 09:22:16 pm
So legendary. Wonder exactly how true all that stuff is.

He certainly sounds like he was at the cutting edge BITD.

The person I sometimes climb with confirms CP was an exceptional talent and basically went around onsighting everything, or trying to! I think I remember he told me that he held his ropes on onsight of Zero but I’d need to confirm.

Ah yes I wasn’t disbelieving the zero thing more just the eating nothing, climbing lots of hard routes onsight in a day like that. I’m not even disbelieving that. Just wonder how much is bang on.
My money's on Dougie Hall.
I remember Dougie telling me a story which I’m sure I have recounted on another thread. He was talking to Pete Gomersall and Dougie said he’d been to Blue Scar and done a route up the wall where Death Wish, Great white go. Pete went a bit pale and enquired when Dougie had done it. Doug gave a date and Pete then said he done this route the week before.
Doug in recounting the tale said this was strange as it was heavily chalked to crux then no chalk above. Doug with a wink said I know who did it first.
I wish I could remember which route it was.

Such a legend. His bit in the power of climbing is ace. Met him in oz a few years back - just one of many legends of yore we were lucky enough to meet on that trip. Was such a sound, psyched guy!
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: nik at work on November 24, 2021, 09:30:18 pm
Dougie told me a few years ago that he onsighted Hollow Man back in the day. Dunno what day it was back in though…
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on November 24, 2021, 09:38:16 pm
Dougie told me a few years ago that he onsighted Hollow Man back in the day. Dunno what day it was back in though…

Andy Pollitt got the second ascent "6 years after Redhead" (from a UKC article), so sometime after 1986 I assume.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 24, 2021, 09:43:35 pm
Grant Farquhar did a few early 90s I think. maybe The Brat did too.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Adam Lincoln on November 24, 2021, 09:43:47 pm
So legendary. Wonder exactly how true all that stuff is.

He certainly sounds like he was at the cutting edge BITD.

The person I sometimes climb with confirms CP was an exceptional talent and basically went around onsighting everything, or trying to! I think I remember he told me that he held his ropes on onsight of Zero but I’d need to confirm.

Is this person Jo Bertalot? I can’t remember the story but think CP pretty much onsighted Requiem at Dumby. Or maybe fell off right at the top. Way back in the day….
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Nails on November 24, 2021, 10:04:27 pm
Pollitt did the first ascent of Hollow Man, second ascent of The Bells.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Stabbsy on November 24, 2021, 10:07:04 pm
So legendary. Wonder exactly how true all that stuff is.
The eating bit sounds true. I met him at Malham, mid to late 90s at a guess. He was climbing with the Barrow Lads, who I knew from Ingleton wall so chatted to them a bit. His food for the day? A tin of sweetcorn.

The only other thing I remember was his ethics around having clips in for the redpoint. He’d failed on something on the LHS of the catwalk, took the clips out and then placed clips again on his next attempt. “Proper” redpointing as defined in that Mick Ryan article that got mentioned up the page.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: petejh on November 24, 2021, 10:23:20 pm
Adam, yep JB.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fultonius on November 24, 2021, 10:29:02 pm
So legendary. Wonder exactly how true all that stuff is.

He certainly sounds like he was at the cutting edge BITD.

The person I sometimes climb with confirms CP was an exceptional talent and basically went around onsighting everything, or trying to! I think I remember he told me that he held his ropes on onsight of Zero but I’d need to confirm.

Is this person Jo Bertalot? I can’t remember the story but think CP pretty much onsighted Requiem at Dumby. Or maybe fell off right at the top. Way back in the day….

I've heard this story from a few sources. The story goes he was basically a few moves from the top of the onsight (E8 mind!) and came off. As far as I'm aware it would have been the second ascent? Or certainly an early repeat and he decided that was it and never got back on it.

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=6892.0

Alas, it is unfortunately just the stuff of legend according to his belayer:

Quote
I belayed Craig when he tried to ground up Requiem back in 1998. It was an impressive display of climbing even by Parnaby standards. His 1st attempt ended half way up the crack with him shouting "End of a dream! End of a dream!"

On his 2nd attempt he got to the top of the crack but came off getting established on the head wall above this. On his 3rd attempt on day 2 he cruised all the way to the top only to find that the top was wet as it had started to rain.

After spending a few minutes hanging onto wet basalt Craig shouted down in his best Victor Meldrew impression that "he couldn't believe it" and casually down climbed to his last runner and lowered off. He said that he couldn't be bothered trying again as he had had too many goes and that was that!

I've never seen as impressive on-sight climber as Parnaby, he was a legend back in the 90's......
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Neil F on November 24, 2021, 10:52:15 pm
I think there's every chance it will have been Dougie.  He was another one who just got on with it, never making a fuss.

I know he on sighted Bucket Dynasty at Dove.  Pretty sure that was with Ian Carr.  I'll ask Ian if he has a record of the date.

Neil
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 25, 2021, 05:09:08 am
Re The Bells, I'd heard rumours of an ab nearby by Andy. Don't know how true that is. Others who've claimed The Bells on-sight have had High gear in The Cad. Would be good to know more about Mike Owen's ascent, Hollow Man etc.

As mentioned above, the interpretation of on-sight has shifted a lot. When standard practice was simply walking up to the route with a rack and setting off, some prior knowledge was often part of the preparation. On-sight just meant you hadn't been on it before, and if you didn't fall off, you'd flashed it too.

Interpretations have changed at the other/this end too, with routes being claimed with pads that didn't have them before.
I think it will be an interesting exercise in working out how to interpret things historically. Included in that will be the way that routes get graded differently, with many older routes getting established with far less preparation/inspection than is the norm now.

I repeated (2nd ascent) Littlejohn's route Lazarus at Bass Point in '89. (There with Andy Popp, Nick White, Pat, Dave Burrel and others.) It was given E7 at the time, and some have claimed that in the UKC log books. It's clearly not, but interesting from a grade without prior knowledge perspective. I managed to snap a hold off after the crux, and was so gutted. Sport grade wise, it's probably pretty lowly. E6,6b and 7b. I didn't bother pulling my ropes, so a one fall yoyo, which is another important consideration.

Thinking about routes like Strawberries, where a fall might be expected, I'd be inclined to think that the grade of E7 is given in the context of a "no falls" ascent. I can imagine there's a five sport grade difference between say a route like that above and others of it's ilk, and something like Requiem. Different worlds.

General awareness of other key ingredients of a particular route would also have a bearing on what was considered "good style". Without the opportunity to "video point", word of mouth helped establish a route's mystique and mythical status.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 25, 2021, 07:15:56 am
Would be good to know more about Mike Owen's ascent, Hollow Man etc.

http://mikeowenfrance.blogspot.com/2013/09/what-do-steve-boote-climbing-hangar-and.html
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: andy moles on November 25, 2021, 07:51:31 am
Will Remus start making a list for this? Finally we are out of the redpoint lists and onto the good ones! (eh Mr Fiend!?)  :lol:

I might have to take a cold shower!!

Such a remuslist has been a long time coming.

I'm very tempted but it's particularly difficult if you try and narrow down the exact style of ascent. Maybe if we could work out some easy to judge criteria for inclusion on the list?

With the vagaries of memory and interpretation, teasing apart onsight and flash would be nigh on impossible, so just allow both with a note on style where known?

Think you'd have to allow everything right up to the most cynical style of beta-plunder flash, so long as there was no actual pre-practice, otherwise again teasing it apart would be impossible.

Another problem is for men if you make the cut-off grade E7 the list will be endless, while E8 becomes a very small club.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Adam Lincoln on November 25, 2021, 09:04:26 am
Adam, yep JB.

Ive heard the stories off him too. Jaw dropping some of them.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: andy popp on November 25, 2021, 09:27:01 am
The Phoenix (13a so E6ish?) in ‘84.

Wouldn't that be 7c+, in theory - pretty tough E6? 
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 25, 2021, 10:09:47 am
The Phoenix was famously a flash. Amazing news when he did it but not an onsight. He even had the specific gear racked in order.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: jwi on November 25, 2021, 10:15:54 am
The Phoenix (13a so E6ish?) in ‘84.

Wouldn't that be 7c+, in theory - pretty tough E6?

A friend who’s onsighted or flashed a bunch of 8a-8b cracks in the US did not manage to onsight Phoenix and thought it was particularly tricky for a crack.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 25, 2021, 08:49:22 pm
I think this is where it gets difficult.

7c+ was always considered the cut-off/top end for E6, but that would be for sport - with other factors coming into play for the E7.

It's not a fixed line, with the factors determining an on-sight of something like Master's Wall being different to that with a route like Strawberries (or The Phoenix). Having all your gear sorted for a route like Phoenix will place the focus on physicality, rather than the overall.

I'm still inclined to think that when we say E7, we're really referring to a level of difficulty/uncertainty/boldness/risk.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fiend on November 25, 2021, 09:01:54 pm
I'm very tempted but it's particularly difficult if you try and narrow down the exact style of ascent. Maybe if we could work out some easy to judge criteria for inclusion on the list?

It could definitely be hammered out by knowledgeable chaps and chapesses on here.

1. Conventional onsight flash - bottom to top first go (downclimbing allowed ofc this isn;t fucking UKC) with just the knowledge from guidebooks and whatever you can glean with your own eyes.

2. Conventional beta flash - bottom to top first go, with knowledge gained from watching someone and/or talking to someone about the route.

3. Grey area when it comes to advanced information beta-flashes like Keen Youth on Muy Caliente ("gamma flash"?)

4. Onsight ground-up - bottom to top after however many attempts, with with just the knowledge from guidebooks and whatever you can glean with your own eyes.

5. Beta ground-up -  bottom to top after however many attempts, with knowledge gained from watching someone and/or talking to someone about the route.

6. Additional grey area when it comes to leaving gear in place etc.

7. Pads blah blah fucking pads whatever.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: andy popp on November 25, 2021, 09:17:02 pm
4 can definitely be more challenging and satisfying than 2 and 3.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fiend on November 25, 2021, 09:20:56 pm
And! Most excitingly, once that list is done, we can do a nice table, year upon year, showing:

Improvements in physical standards:

Total sport redpoints 9a and above
How many people redpointed >9a
Total sport flashes 8b and above
How many people flashed >8b
Total boulders 8B and above
How many people bouldered >8B
Total boulder flashes 8A and above
How many people flashed >8A

Total headpoints E9 and above
How many people headpointed >E9

Total trad onsights E7 and above
How many people onsighted >E7

(add in ground ups and flashes if needed)

Then we can have a happy cheery view how progression in sport / boulder performance AND the general amount of people climbing at higher levels has corresponded to exactly how much of a progression in onsight trad climbing  :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: jwi on November 25, 2021, 09:48:41 pm
There are very few countries where there are massive amounts of single pitch trad. Especially if you discount routes that mix bolts and natural pro as trad. There are simply very few safe 8c trad routes for good climbers to throw themselves on. (Safe 8b+/8c is a type of route that I from extrapolating personal experience would expect climbers like Adam Ondra to have a decent chance to onsight if climbing with a full rack and fiddling with gear). If I understand correctly safe 8c is E9 and spicy 8c is E10?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Steve Crowe on November 25, 2021, 09:56:13 pm
Mike Owen climbed Hollow Man in 1990 on sight. All his ascents are visible on UKC
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: petejh on November 25, 2021, 10:06:06 pm
It could definitely be hammered out by knowledgeable chaps and chapesses on here.

1. Conventional onsight flash - bottom to top first go (downclimbing allowed ofc this isn;t fucking UKC) with just the knowledge from guidebooks and whatever you can glean with your own eyes.

2. Conventional beta flash - bottom to top first go, with knowledge gained from watching someone and/or talking to someone about the route.

3. Grey area when it comes to advanced information beta-flashes like Keen Youth on Muy Caliente ("gamma flash"?)

4. Onsight ground-up - bottom to top after however many attempts, with with just the knowledge from guidebooks and whatever you can glean with your own eyes.

5. Beta ground-up -  bottom to top after however many attempts, with knowledge gained from watching someone and/or talking to someone about the route.

6. Additional grey area when it comes to leaving gear in place etc.

7. Pads blah blah fucking pads whatever.



^  of E8 and above.

 
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on November 25, 2021, 10:13:40 pm
If I understand correctly safe 8c is E9 and spicy 8c is E10?

In practice that's probably a little harsh. For E9: easy but dangerous is ~7c (Rare Lichen, Indian Face) and hard but safe is 8b/+ (Mission Impossible). E10: 8a+ to 8c+ or so.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Ged on November 25, 2021, 10:24:40 pm
I think this is where it gets difficult.

7c+ was always considered the cut-off/top end for E6, but that would be for sport - with other factors coming into play for the E7.

It's not a fixed line, with the factors determining an on-sight of something like Master's Wall being different to that with a route like Strawberries (or The Phoenix). Having all your gear sorted for a route like Phoenix will place the focus on physicality, rather than the overall.

I'm still inclined to think that when we say E7, we're really referring to a level of difficulty/uncertainty/boldness/risk.

What e6's are 7c+? Even tge safest ones I can think of (stuff like grezelda) is only 7b+ probably?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 25, 2021, 10:30:26 pm
I think you are talking at cross purposes Ged. When bolts arrived the French grades were converted into English ones, so say, Mescalito at 7c+ was E6 but Rain Dogs at 8a was E7.

As a trad graded E6, 7c+ would be quite harsh!
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Adam Lincoln on November 25, 2021, 10:30:28 pm
I think this is where it gets difficult.

7c+ was always considered the cut-off/top end for E6, but that would be for sport - with other factors coming into play for the E7.

It's not a fixed line, with the factors determining an on-sight of something like Master's Wall being different to that with a route like Strawberries (or The Phoenix). Having all your gear sorted for a route like Phoenix will place the focus on physicality, rather than the overall.

I'm still inclined to think that when we say E7, we're really referring to a level of difficulty/uncertainty/boldness/risk.

What e6's are 7c+? Even tge safest ones I can think of (stuff like grezelda) is only 7b+ probably?

Hells Wall. 7c…. Safe as houses
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Ged on November 25, 2021, 10:34:50 pm
I mean hells Wall is basically a sport route though. You have to be selective about what to actually bother clipping! In terms of e6's that involve placing gear, I don't think I can think of any harder than 7b+
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Ged on November 25, 2021, 10:36:02 pm
I think you are talking at cross purposes Ged. When bolts arrived the French grades were converted into English ones, so say, Mescalito at 7c+ was E6 but Rain Dogs at 8a was E7.

As a trad graded E6, 7c+ would be quite harsh!

I'm not sure what purposes I've crossed...
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Adam Lincoln on November 25, 2021, 10:56:40 pm
I mean hells Wall is basically a sport route though. You have to be selective about what to actually bother clipping! In terms of e6's that involve placing gear, I don't think I can think of any harder than 7b+

King of kings. 7c….. and E6
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: jwi on November 25, 2021, 10:57:33 pm
If I understand correctly safe 8c is E9 and spicy 8c is E10?

In practice that's probably a little harsh. For E9: easy but dangerous is ~7c (Rare Lichen, Indian Face) and hard but safe is 8b/+ (Mission Impossible). E10: 8a+ to 8c+ or so.

Is that safe as in "absolutely fine even if you miss a placement or two" or safe as in "safe for redpoint ascent with all crucial gear tested"? Makes a big difference on the onsight imho.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 25, 2021, 11:12:24 pm
I think you are talking at cross purposes Ged. When bolts arrived the French grades were converted into English ones, so say, Mescalito at 7c+ was E6 but Rain Dogs at 8a was E7.

As a trad graded E6, 7c+ would be quite harsh!

I'm not sure what purposes I've crossed...

7c+ was always considered the cut-off/top end for E6, but that would be for sport -

I read Dave as talking about the conversion of sport route grades to E grades, rather than the other way round. So 7c+ is definitive as-hard-as-it-gets E6.

A trad route, with the hassle of finding, placing and trusting gear (as opposed to clipping 15 pegs) is a different proposition to climb entirely. Hence the comment.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Tony S on November 25, 2021, 11:23:03 pm
Mike Owen climbed Hollow Man in 1990 on sight. All his ascents are visible on UKC

Mike was undoubtedly one of the best trad climbers around. However I don't think "onsight" is an accurate reflection of that ascent (but I can completely understand why one might choose to record it that way in a personal record.)

Mike had climbed The Bells, The Bells before (an ascent not without interest) - which he states clearly in his UKC log and in his blog. The "The Bells, The Bells" section encompasses all the risky hard climbing on the Hollow Man.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 26, 2021, 06:20:50 am
I think you are talking at cross purposes Ged. When bolts arrived the French grades were converted into English ones, so say, Mescalito at 7c+ was E6 but Rain Dogs at 8a was E7.

As a trad graded E6, 7c+ would be quite harsh!

I'm not sure what purposes I've crossed...

Slightly off topic. Here's an interesting article about cross porpoises  ;D

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/04/22/dolphins-hold-grudges-scientists-discover-mammals-will-help/

Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on November 26, 2021, 08:05:56 am
If I understand correctly safe 8c is E9 and spicy 8c is E10?

In practice that's probably a little harsh. For E9: easy but dangerous is ~7c (Rare Lichen, Indian Face) and hard but safe is 8b/+ (Mission Impossible). E10: 8a+ to 8c+ or so.

Is that safe as in "absolutely fine even if you miss a placement or two" or safe as in "safe for redpoint ascent with all crucial gear tested"? Makes a big difference on the onsight imho.

Yeah, that's safe as in no super specific gear beta required, you'd be able to work it out on lead (in my armchair opinion at least). For example, mission impossible is protected by pegs and some small wires. Maybe if you had something that was completely safe (i.e. gear above your head the whole way) it'd slip in to 8c terrain (Ben gave hubble E9 after all :lol:) but in practice I don't think there are many routes like that.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: spidermonkey09 on November 26, 2021, 08:15:05 am
Also if you miss a few placements on most UK climbing you'll have topped out before you find any more.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fultonius on November 26, 2021, 09:26:50 am
Also if you miss a few placements on most UKEnglish/Grit/Sandstone climbing you'll have topped out before you find any more.

Bit of a grit centric view?

I've only done 2 E6s, neither onsight. One was about 6c+/7a and quite bold (Hells Kitchen Arete) and the other well enough protected, but very cruxy and probably about 7b/7b+. Some of the gear would be fiddly on the onsight. Seems mad to think you could also get an E6 at Fr7c+!

Is E6 the widest grade?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: spidermonkey09 on November 26, 2021, 09:46:19 am
Yeah definitely, was tongue in cheek also; just making the point that on most UK E7s or above I would imagine gear is a finite resource and climbing past a few placements will in most circumstances make things extremely bold, unlike in a 40m finger crack or something.

7c+ at E6 is surely a bit off; I would have thought 7c would be absolute top of E6 and even then quite unusual. Yes there are examples, but I bet there are considerably more examples of E7s with 7c climbing.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: grimer on November 26, 2021, 09:57:16 am
I'm sure i have an old Yorkshire Limestone guide where Dominatrix is in at E5 6b. That was led on the old aid gear. Then I read an account once of someone who flashed it and 'only did cos they didn't dare weight any of the gear'. I guess the E5 was a Yorkshire in-joke, but would Dominatrix only be E6 with poor gear?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: IanP on November 26, 2021, 10:01:50 am

7c+ at E6 is surely a bit off; I would have thought 7c would be absolute top of E6 and even then quite unusual. Yes there are examples, but I bet there are considerably more examples of E7s with 7c climbing.

All a bit above my pay grade but both Cave Routes were E6 prior to rebolting - not sure how much gear you had to place on CRL, but its 7c+ and whole lot harder than the CRR.   Did attempt CRR in the 90s and only placed a few wires and it felt more 7b+ than E6 maybe because of the style I was attempting it (rp rather than os).
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: andy moles on November 26, 2021, 10:02:48 am

1. Conventional onsight flash - bottom to top first go (downclimbing allowed ofc this isn;t fucking UKC) with just the knowledge from guidebooks and whatever you can glean with your own eyes.


I think if you want to meaningfully distinguish between different shades of ground-up ascent, you can't leave chalked-ness out of it.

Sure, you may have no control over whether a route is chalked or not when you turn up to climb it, but then again you may. People sometimes deliberately choose to get on things when they know they're well chalked. It's not unknown to get a mate to chalk a line before an 'onsight' attempt.

In terms of the difference it makes to the level of difficulty, obviously it will vary depending on the nature of a particular route, and whether it's a light frosting on some holds vs. double donkey ticks, but chalk can be just as relevant as good beta.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Will Hunt on November 26, 2021, 10:06:58 am
I shouldn't look to Yorkshire Limestone if one wants to calibrate a grading system. Oedipus at Stony Bank was previously retroed from E3 to 7a. Not devoid of gear but also not a clip up. One wonders why people weren't doing it as a trad route...
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: spidermonkey09 on November 26, 2021, 10:18:38 am

All a bit above my pay grade but both Cave Routes were E6 prior to rebolting - not sure how much gear you had to place on CRL, but its 7c+ and whole lot harder than the CRR.   Did attempt CRR in the 90s and only placed a few wires and it felt more 7b+ than E6 maybe because of the style I was attempting it (rp rather than os).

From what I understand these aren't great examples to use because of the sheer amount of fixed gear there used to be in them. More than one person has told me that both routes are bolder now as fully bolted sport routes than they were as 'trad' routes!
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fultonius on November 26, 2021, 12:32:31 pm

1. Conventional onsight flash - bottom to top first go (downclimbing allowed ofc this isn;t fucking UKC) with just the knowledge from guidebooks and whatever you can glean with your own eyes.


I think if you want to meaningfully distinguish between different shades of ground-up ascent, you can't leave chalked-ness out of it.

Sure, you may have no control over whether a route is chalked or not when you turn up to climb it, but then again you may. People sometimes deliberately choose to get on things when they know they're well chalked. It's not unknown to get a mate to chalk a line before an 'onsight' attempt.

In terms of the difference it makes to the level of difficulty, obviously it will vary depending on the nature of a particular route, and whether it's a light frosting on some holds vs. double donkey ticks, but chalk can be just as relevant as good beta.

There's generally a flurry of activity whenever anyone hears Iain Small has been busy on a route somewhere, especially from the like likes of Macnair...

I was mighty glad of the tell-tales on a F7b I sneaked up onsight last week. I suspect it's so permanently chalked that you'd need someone to purposefully clean it to hide them, so I guess F7b is the grade in it's usual state, but it definitely made the "onsight" (flash?) easier.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: andy moles on November 26, 2021, 12:45:25 pm
I was mighty glad of the tell-tales on a F7b I sneaked up onsight last week. I suspect it's so permanently chalked that you'd need someone to purposefully clean it to hide them, so I guess F7b is the grade in it's usual state, but it definitely made the "onsight" (flash?) easier.

Yeah, on permanently chalked things where it's basically become part of the rock surface, it's an academic point...but the difference on a slightly neglected grubby mountain route or greasy sea-cliff can be vast!
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: T_B on November 26, 2021, 12:48:14 pm

All a bit above my pay grade but both Cave Routes were E6 prior to rebolting - not sure how much gear you had to place on CRL, but its 7c+ and whole lot harder than the CRR.   Did attempt CRR in the 90s and only placed a few wires and it felt more 7b+ than E6 maybe because of the style I was attempting it (rp rather than os).

From what I understand these aren't great examples to use because of the sheer amount of fixed gear there used to be in them. More than one person has told me that both routes are bolder now as fully bolted sport routes than they were as 'trad' routes!

Sounds like the kind of bollocks one of the frothing Yorkshire retro-bolters would come out with! I on-sighted CRR in 2003 and it definitely felt trad, particularly the top crack. Granted, lots of fixed crap but I’m pretty sure you had to place wires. Steve Crowe will remember when the “let’s make sure no-one dies” bolt went in at half height. Then it eventually got completely retroed.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: T_B on November 26, 2021, 12:50:22 pm
Mike Owen climbed Hollow Man in 1990 on sight. All his ascents are visible on UKC

Mike was undoubtedly one of the best trad climbers around. However I don't think "onsight" is an accurate reflection of that ascent (but I can completely understand why one might choose to record it that way in a personal record.)

Mike had climbed The Bells, The Bells before (an ascent not without interest) - which he states clearly in his UKC log and in his blog. The "The Bells, The Bells" section encompasses all the risky hard climbing on the Hollow Man.

I remember going up to Dave Birkett at Kendal and pretty much accusing him of not doing a ‘proper on-sight’ of Caff’s E8 at Dove ‘Fear of Failure’ as surely he had done Vlad first, so had knowledge of the bottom bit. To which he replied he did Vlad afterwards. Oops. Ethics Police 0, Sheep Rescuer 1.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: teestub on November 26, 2021, 01:06:27 pm
I remember going up to Dave Birkett at Kendal and pretty much accusing him of not doing a ‘proper on-sight’ of Caff’s E8 at Dove ‘Fear of Failure’ as surely he had done Vlad first, so had knowledge of the bottom bit. To which he replied he did Vlad afterwards. Oops. Ethics Police 0, Sheep Rescuer 1.

Sounds like an action with a bit of Dutch courage behind it! 😂
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Wood FT on November 26, 2021, 05:14:49 pm
Mike Owen climbed Hollow Man in 1990 on sight. All his ascents are visible on UKC

Mike was undoubtedly one of the best trad climbers around. However I don't think "onsight" is an accurate reflection of that ascent (but I can completely understand why one might choose to record it that way in a personal record.)

Mike had climbed The Bells, The Bells before (an ascent not without interest) - which he states clearly in his UKC log and in his blog. The "The Bells, The Bells" section encompasses all the risky hard climbing on the Hollow Man.

I remember going up to Dave Birkett at Kendal and pretty much accusing him of not doing a ‘proper on-sight’ of Caff’s E8 at Dove ‘Fear of Failure’

Phwoar, that is confidence.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: IanP on November 26, 2021, 06:00:19 pm

All a bit above my pay grade but both Cave Routes were E6 prior to rebolting - not sure how much gear you had to place on CRL, but its 7c+ and whole lot harder than the CRR.   Did attempt CRR in the 90s and only placed a few wires and it felt more 7b+ than E6 maybe because of the style I was attempting it (rp rather than os).

From what I understand these aren't great examples to use because of the sheer amount of fixed gear there used to be in them. More than one person has told me that both routes are bolder now as fully bolted sport routes than they were as 'trad' routes!

Sounds like the kind of bollocks one of the frothing Yorkshire retro-bolters would come out with! I on-sighted CRR in 2003 and it definitely felt trad, particularly the top crack. Granted, lots of fixed crap but I’m pretty sure you had to place wires. Steve Crowe will remember when the “let’s make sure no-one dies” bolt went in at half height. Then it eventually got completely retroed.

I tried CRR once in the late 90s and once in around 2005, both followed a similar pattern: dog up to get the gear in and work the moves, have a decent redpoint go and fall off on the peg pockets and sidepulls in the upper crack, have another redpoint go and find I'm far more tired than I should be so go home with tail between my legs.  In that style I'm really not sure whether it felt E6 or 7b+, placed a few wires but when you're dogging between the gear and the rp'ing on preplaced I imagine it feels pretty different to onsighting.  Actually finally got round to doing it on bolts this year and I think its a great route, much tidier than my memories of 20 years ago and bolted appropriately for Gordale - its definitely a sport route but you do have to commit to climbing between the bolts.

Back (slightly) more on topic the point is that both routes were given E6 on a mix of gear and a few wires, if there aren't many fully gear, well protected E6s in the 7c ish range is that because of nature of UK rock - certainly get tough, very well protected trad routes at lower grades (Foil, Queer Street, London Wall etc)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Neil F on November 26, 2021, 06:32:11 pm
From what I understand these aren't great examples to use because of the sheer amount of fixed gear there used to be in them. More than one person has told me that both routes are bolder now as fully bolted sport routes than they were as 'trad' routes!

That's definitely not right. I on sighted Cave Route RH in August 92. I remember setting off with a fairly normal trad rack (though pehaps more wires than cams). I remember there was a peg in the start; placing an rp3 on that tricky bulge low down, there being some situ stuff on the moves left into the crack, then placing quite a lot of medium rocks in the upper crack.  Hanging on to place those was the main problem and I had to dig deep to make the final trickly moves in the crack, but I used to get incredibly determined when I got close to the finish of a long hard pitch on the on sight. Point is, it definitely wasn't a clip up.

I also did Cave Route LH before it got retro'd, but managed to employ a rope gun (Keefe Murphy) to put the gear in (basically because I wasn't good enough to do that one placing the gear). I remember that the main place you needed trad gear was the first crack leading up to the crux bulge.

I've got very mixed feelings about the retrobolting of those routes, because they were both classics of their genre.  I even posted a very politically incorrect comment (probably before CRRH was retro'd) warning about opening the floodgates to in situ hangdoggers wearing 'Sport for all' t-shirts....   :-[  (but that was probably 20+ years ago  :lol:)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fultonius on November 26, 2021, 08:22:04 pm

Back (slightly) more on topic the point is that both routes were given E6 on a mix of gear and a few wires, if there aren't many fully gear, well protected E6s in the 7c ish range is that because of nature of UK rock - certainly get tough, very well protected trad routes at lower grades (Foil, Queer Street, London Wall etc)

I know we've got shite weather, midges and neds, but up here we do actually have quite a lot of well protected E6s in the 7b+/7c range. Would actually make quite a good UKC logbook ticklist.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on November 27, 2021, 06:03:48 am

All a bit above my pay grade but both Cave Routes were E6 prior to rebolting - not sure how much gear you had to place on CRL, but its 7c+ and whole lot harder than the CRR.   Did attempt CRR in the 90s and only placed a few wires and it felt more 7b+ than E6 maybe because of the style I was attempting it (rp rather than os).

From what I understand these aren't great examples to use because of the sheer amount of fixed gear there used to be in them. More than one person has told me that both routes are bolder now as fully bolted sport routes than they were as 'trad' routes!

Sounds like the kind of bollocks one of the frothing Yorkshire retro-bolters would come out with! I on-sighted CRR in 2003 and it definitely felt trad, particularly the top crack. Granted, lots of fixed crap but I’m pretty sure you had to place wires. Steve Crowe will remember when the “let’s make sure no-one dies” bolt went in at half height. Then it eventually got completely retroed.

I tried CRR once in the late 90s ...  I'm really not sure whether it felt E6 or 7b+, placed a few wires but when you're dogging between the gear and the rp'ing on preplaced I imagine it feels pretty different to onsighting. 

Back (slightly) more on topic the point is that both routes were given E6 on a mix of gear and a few wires, if there aren't many fully gear, well protected E6s in the 7c ish range is that because of nature of UK rock - certainly get tough, very well protected trad routes at lower grades (Foil, Queer Street, London Wall etc)

I hope you don't mind me quoting you Ian, but I think that's where the confusion is - re E6 or 7b+.

It's both. People have grown accustomed to thinking that an E grade necessarily implies "Trad".
It's just the British way of grading routes, whether they're "trad", "sport" or a bit of a mix.

I remember chatting with Jason Myers about the Cave Routes, and how expansive the E6 grade was. Cave Route Left was never considered E7 though.

I remember one of "what happened there" Jase' sponsorship letters. He was presenting his repeat of Renaissance at Malham as one of very few one day ascents of an E7 at the time.

I followed Dave Pegg on the FA of Aboriginal Sin at Kilnsey. That was given E6 at the time, but is now given 7c+.

Chiseling at Malham was always considered a stiff E5. It's 7C  ;D
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: spidermonkey09 on November 27, 2021, 10:02:38 am
I stand corrected re the traddiness of the cave routes! Fwiw I think they're great as sport routes, they aren't grid bolted and require a bit of commitment.

Will take some convincing that the E grade is a way of grading sport routes though...  ::)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: andy moles on November 27, 2021, 10:17:03 am
I know we've got shite weather, midges and neds, but up here we do actually have quite a lot of well protected E6s in the 7b+/7c range. Would actually make quite a good UKC logbook ticklist.

Out of interest, which Scottish E6s would you say are safe 7b+/c Ally?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 27, 2021, 10:20:32 am
Will take some convincing that the E grade is a way of grading sport routes though...  ::)

It didn’t last long but makes sense as sport routes can be viewed as perfectly protected trad routes.

As mentioned the E6 grade was particularly wide for sport routes covering 7b+, 7c and 7c+ reflecting how the cutoff for E6 had become too high compared to all the other E grades which encompassed two french grades rather than three.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: spidermonkey09 on November 27, 2021, 10:27:09 am
I can see that it can be made to work in the absence of anything else but seems a bit square peg in round hole to me.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 27, 2021, 10:43:56 am
It’s historical, spiders. In 1983 they weren’t sport grades, they were French grades- meaningless until given an equivalence to British E grades which was the only grade around here. It’s useless saying such and such is 7c unless you know how hard 7c is. When your reference is E grades, that needs converting.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 27, 2021, 10:51:37 am
Its a useful reference point as a starting point for grade calculations that for example a perfectly protected trad route with gear as easy to place as clipping quick draws that has a sport grade of 7b is E5 and not E6 for example
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 27, 2021, 10:55:11 am
They are good as tandem grades, that tells you a lot about the route. Eg a 7b graded E7 tells me I don’t want to go up there :)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Will Hunt on November 27, 2021, 10:57:43 am
Chiseling (7c) and 7th Aardvark (7b) both used to get E5 6c.
Main Overhang (8a) and New Dawn (7c) both E6 6c.
Pierrepoint (7c+) was E7 6c. Cave Route Left-hand (7c+) was E6 6c.

I don't think it worked...
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on November 27, 2021, 11:04:01 am
No one who had climbed 7th Aardvark would sensibly give that 6c though Will. Main Overhang used to get 7c+ before the hold broke.

Chiselling is interesting. Took Leachy a while I think? Typifies the subtlety of grading that E grades can give as E5+6c is clearly safe, short and bouldery which doesn’t come through the sport grade on its own. So not a perfect system because the technical grades are far too wide IMO, but not hopeless either.

Ultimately, each works pretty well for what they were designed for; they aren’t the same things however, so the conversion is likely to be approximate.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Neil F on November 27, 2021, 11:27:38 am
I think there's every chance it will have been Dougie.  He was another one who just got on with it, never making a fuss.

I know he on sighted Bucket Dynasty at Dove.  Pretty sure that was with Ian Carr.  I'll ask Ian if he has a record of the date.


Ian has just got back to me. It sounds like Doug on sighted Bucket Dynasty in 91, just after doing Vlad (which BD finishes up). What’s even more impressive is he didn’t know what it was(!), he just saw our chalk on it when coming down from Vlad and decided to have a go…

The timing makes sense as we’d done the FA on 27/5/91.

To quote Ian “ We didn’t know what it was, so in typical Dougie style he just set off up it. It was all it bit harrowing because he didn’t put much gear in most of the routes. The direct was no exception.”

Doug was such an understated climber. I remember once chatting to him at Kilnsey. I think he’d just done something on North Buttress - maybe The Thumb or Urgent Action. I asked him what he’d been up to, and managed to tease out that he’d repeated Huecool at Gordale (which would have been a very early repeat).

What he failed to mention was the timing. He’d been at Gordale ticking Huecool earlier that same day 😳
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Duncan campbell on November 27, 2021, 11:47:51 am
That’s a brilliant story Neil!!
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 27, 2021, 12:27:21 pm
The other amazing thing about Dougie was the speed he climbed. Amazing to watch him zoom up E5’s in the Leap where he was belayed by some random HVS climber he’d just met who had no idea who he was.

Doggie wore a donkey jacket at the time and with thick specs looked like a punter. We did wonder whether it was a bit of an affectation.

Love the story of him getting so pumped soloing at one of the Lancs quarries he had to use his chin on the top to shake out enough to do the top out mantel.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Kingy on November 27, 2021, 01:10:19 pm
Chiseling (7c) and 7th Aardvark (7b) both used to get E5 6c.
Main Overhang (8a) and New Dawn (7c) both E6 6c.
Pierrepoint (7c+) was E7 6c. Cave Route Left-hand (7c+) was E6 6c.


According to my Yorkshire Limestone Rockfax from 1990, Chiselling is graded E6 6c...7c and Seventh Aardvark is E5 6b...7b. Dunno where E5 for Chiselling came from?

New Dawn is E6 6c...7c but Main Overhang was graded 7c+ back then (pre a hold breaking) so E6 6c makes sense. It would have been E7 had it been 8a then. Anything graded 8a gets E7 (e.g. Raindogs E7 6b or Connect 4 E7 6c).

Makes sense to me as the E grade with an accompanying English tech grade adds another layer of info e.g. Raindogs E7 6b has easier moves but is more sustained than Zoolook E7 6c which has a harder crux but with a better rest midway.

The early 90's Rockfax's use of E grades (see also the 1992 Peak Lime Rockfax) was a useful aid to convert climbers' understanding of the new fangled French grades which they didn't really get at the time. Looks like a museum piece now.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Neil F on November 27, 2021, 01:15:21 pm
Couple more messages from Ian Carr:-

“ Dougie did Eyes of Fire on Chee Tor in 1985 or 86 as a true trad route. Sure this is worth E7 as well.

He took one fall from the very top. Ended up eye to eye with me stood on the ground.”

and

“ Also Terminal Twilight in 85 ish...”

Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 27, 2021, 02:10:30 pm
According to my Yorkshire Limestone Rockfax from 1990, Chiselling is graded E6 6c...7c and Seventh Aardvark is E5 6b...7b. Dunno where E5 for Chiselling came from?

They both got E56c in a photo in Extreme Rock but yes obviously the wrong grades

Quote
Makes sense to me as the E grade with an accompanying English tech grade adds another layer of info e.g. Raindogs E7 6b has easier moves but is more sustained than Zoolook E7 6c which has a harder crux but with a better rest midway.

🤔 The headwall of Zoolook is sustained and in terms of the moves on Raindogs they might be more basic but they are harder if you lack the strength/power. I was completely shut down on some of the moves on Raindogs after redpointing Zoolook
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fultonius on November 27, 2021, 02:29:42 pm
I know we've got shite weather, midges and neds, but up here we do actually have quite a lot of well protected E6s in the 7b+/7c range. Would actually make quite a good UKC logbook ticklist.

Out of interest, which Scottish E6s would you say are safe 7b+/c Ally?

Uncertain Emotions, Railway Children  ;)

Small chance I may have been somewhat over-reaching my knowledge here... (aka talking out my erse)

Still, there's things like The Kelpie, Major Domo (maybe easier but meant to be safe), Rain on Rora Head maybe:  https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/rora_head-339/rain-621439

I suspect there are loads more. I'm considering pulling together some info similar to the old "grit list" idea. I just get the feeling from general crag / campground banter that most Scottish E6s are, at least, fairly well protected rather than than the typical E6s elsewhere in the UK.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: IanP on November 27, 2021, 02:53:40 pm
The other amazing thing about Dougie was the speed he climbed. Amazing to watch him zoom up E5’s in the Leap where he was belayed by some random HVS climber he’d just met who had no idea who he was.

I know someone who climbed fairly regularly with Dougie back in the day who described seconding really slowly in Pembroke as it was the only chance to get a rest  :lol:
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Felix14 on November 27, 2021, 03:08:44 pm
What style did he do General dismissal in?
I seem to remember there being something unusual about his ascent.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Tony S on November 27, 2021, 04:45:09 pm
Mike Owen climbed Hollow Man in 1990 on sight. All his ascents are visible on UKC

Mike was undoubtedly one of the best trad climbers around. However I don't think "onsight" is an accurate reflection of that ascent (but I can completely understand why one might choose to record it that way in a personal record.)

Mike had climbed The Bells, The Bells before (an ascent not without interest) - which he states clearly in his UKC log and in his blog. The "The Bells, The Bells" section encompasses all the risky hard climbing on the Hollow Man.

I remember going up to Dave Birkett at Kendal and pretty much accusing him of not doing a ‘proper on-sight’ of Caff’s E8 at Dove ‘Fear of Failure’ as surely he had done Vlad first, so had knowledge of the bottom bit. To which he replied he did Vlad afterwards. Oops. Ethics Police 0, Sheep Rescuer 1.

Fortunately, I'm not making any assumptions here: Mike details the chronology of these ascents v clearly himself.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Tony S on November 27, 2021, 04:50:41 pm
There's generally a flurry of activity whenever anyone hears Iain Small has been busy on a route somewhere, especially from the like likes of Macnair...

I believe Niall himself refers to this form of ascent as the "parasight".
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on November 27, 2021, 04:52:12 pm
What style did he do General dismissal in?
I seem to remember there being something unusual about his ascent.

From memory Dougie made the FA thinking he was repeating a nearby route, perhaps that's what you're thinking of?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fultonius on November 27, 2021, 04:57:00 pm
There's generally a flurry of activity whenever anyone hears Iain Small has been busy on a route somewhere, especially from the like likes of Macnair...

I believe Niall himself refers to this form of ascent as the "parasight".

Brilliant! What a lad! Chuffed to see him get up Achemine.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 27, 2021, 05:00:04 pm
What style did he do General dismissal in?
I seem to remember there being something unusual about his ascent.

From memory Dougie made the FA thinking he was repeating a nearby route, perhaps that's what you're thinking of?

Must be solid E8 that if it’s 8a
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Tony S on November 27, 2021, 05:01:42 pm
What style did he do General dismissal in?
I seem to remember there being something unusual about his ascent.

From memory Dougie made the FA thinking he was repeating a nearby route...

Remus, were you even born when Dougie climbed this route?!

I'm aware something not a million miles away from the above (but not actually the above) is stated in a guidebook. However, I'm far from convinced it's the entire truth. (Though I have no doubt, from what I've heard from his contemporaries, that Dougie was an awesome trad climber.)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 27, 2021, 05:14:23 pm
In the BMC guide it says that he climbed it thinking Dave Lee had already done it.

How come this is called General Dismissal rather than General Incompetence?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Neil F on November 27, 2021, 05:29:25 pm
Dave Lee was 'the General' (and also 'Chesters', because he came from Chesterfield).

He was a brilliant climber, doing several excellent new routes in Cheedale, and spending a lot of time on the Nettle Buttress line (which I think he got pretty high on, but could never regain that high point).

One day, Gore quipped that he was going to do it and call it General Dismissal, which was the first time that (potential) name surfaced.

Dougie did the FA, but I don't think he named it.

I'm pretty sure I asked Chesters at the time if he liked General Incompetence, as a light hearted homage to his (ultimately unsuccessful) seige, and he did, thinking it was funny.

That's why it ended up as General Incompetence.

Where is it called General Dismissal, Simon?

Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 27, 2021, 05:48:02 pm
Thanks for the background Neil - knew some but not all.

It’s called General Dismissal on the ukc logbooks (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/chee_dale_upper-10865/general_dismissal-11891)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Tony S on November 27, 2021, 05:56:24 pm
Dougie did the FA, but I don't think he named it.

The reason this route is mentioned on this thread is because the same guide also suggests Dougie made the FA onsight (though, who knows what defn of onsight).

Neil, do you know if that was the case? These days I'm pretty sure the route is ~8a and not a very trad/onsight style 8a.

May as well also ask, did Dougie know it had not been climbed? (Or is the guidebook entirely inaccurate on this one?!)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 27, 2021, 06:03:46 pm
The reason this route is mentioned on this thread is because the same guide also suggests Dougie made the FA onsight (though, who knows what defn of onsight).

The history section of the current BMC guide doesn’t say it was climbed onsight if that’s the guide you are referring to.

Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Neil F on November 27, 2021, 06:05:56 pm
I'd be staggered if Dougie did it on sight, though he wasn't averse to making very hard moves with the gear below your feet, which is how I remember the project from the time I watched Chesters trying it (I may even have a photo of Dave on it, buried in the archives).

I think someone must have put Doug up to it, though I don't know who.  I also don't know who held his ropes, though it could have been John Smith?

So I definitely know a bit about Chesters' attempts, but basically nothing of Doug's successful ascent...

NB.  I remember that Chesters had put a lot of work into the line, so when Dougie did it, we feared he might be pretty miffed.  But Dave was a pretty laid back guy, and my memory is that he wasn't actually that bothered (which is probably the reason I thought it appropriate to suggest such an offensive name  :lol:)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on November 27, 2021, 06:11:02 pm
From memory Dougie made the FA thinking he was repeating a nearby route...

Remus, were you even born when Dougie climbed this route?!

Ha, no! I meant as in 'from memory of reading the guide'.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Kingy on November 27, 2021, 06:25:37 pm

🤔 The headwall of Zoolook is sustained and in terms of the moves on Raindogs they might be more basic but they are harder if you lack the strength/power. I was completely shut down on some of the moves on Raindogs after redpointing Zoolook

There is no doubt Zoolook is hard, basically an easy 8a+. Raindogs was always sold to me as being short but very sustained in a power endurance style with almost no rest with most moves being English 6b but with no 6c ones. I can see how someone not versed in that style and coming from a stamina route background would find some of the moves hard. I imagine the authors of the Rockfax saw fit to assign English 6c to the hardest move of Zoolook and 6b to the hardest move of Raindogs in their wisdom based on opinions at the time. Luckily we don't need to make that call now, just endlessly debate whether Zoolook is 8a or 8a+  :P Even if Zoolook were 8a+, it would still be graded E7 6c (as E7 covered both 8a and 8a+), just a harder overall proposition. Anyway  :off:
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: webbo on November 27, 2021, 07:37:50 pm
The reason this route is mentioned on this thread is because the same guide also suggests Dougie made the FA onsight (though, who knows what defn of onsight).

The history section of the current BMC guide doesn’t say it was climbed onsight if that’s the guide you are referring to.
You could ask nik at work to ask Doug as he climbed with him in the I of M not that long ago.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on November 28, 2021, 08:36:19 am
I can't remember if we're talking UK only, but Peter Croft made a first try first ascent of the crux pitch of The Shadow in Squamish in 1988. That weighs in at 12d or ~7c on trad gear which is in the right ball park.

The usual vagaries (http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3002969/Peter-Crofts-Shadow-Onsight) apply about whether it was a 'proper' onsight.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: tc on November 30, 2021, 02:07:27 pm
Rubble, Leigh McGinley & Paul Pritchard,1991.
Must be a contender?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: jwi on November 30, 2021, 02:23:56 pm
I can't remember if we're talking UK only, but Peter Croft made a first try first ascent of the crux pitch of The Shadow in Squamish in 1988. That weighs in at 12d or ~7c on trad gear which is in the right ball park.

The usual vagaries (http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/3002969/Peter-Crofts-Shadow-Onsight) apply about whether it was a 'proper' onsight.

Jerry Moffat onsighted Super Crack 7c in Shawagunks in 1982.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 30, 2021, 02:42:18 pm
Phil Davison RIP is said to have onsighted Deathwish at Blue Scar in 1982 (pre peg on Stairway to Heaven)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on November 30, 2021, 04:00:31 pm
Phil Davison RIP is said to have onsighted Deathwish at Blue Scar in 1982 (pre peg on Stairway to Heaven)

I've swapped some emails with Elaine Owen (Mike Owen's partner) and she confirmed this ascent and gave the exact date as 19th september 1982.

https://climbing-history.org/climb/866/death-wish
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fiend on November 30, 2021, 04:26:18 pm
Rubble, Leigh McGinley & Paul Pritchard,1991.
Must be a contender?
I'm guessing that's not one of the "7c on trad gear" ones  ;D :unsure:
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: T_B on November 30, 2021, 04:35:48 pm
Interesting that Death Wish has held its grade. Personally I don’t think it’s E7. Fair enough I did it with the peg but reckoned F7a climbing at the time. Compare that to Woodward’s Ninth Life of the same era which is F7b, pumpier and more dangerous. Or Beau Geste, also from ‘82, in a completely different league of technical difficulty (F7c+ or Font 7b). But I guess if you name your route ‘Death Wish’ the grade is more likely to stick?!
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Stu Littlefair on November 30, 2021, 04:45:21 pm
I'm not sure 9th life is more dangerous if you don't clip the peg on Death Wish, but is it quite artificial not to? I agree it's probably not E7....
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Duncan campbell on November 30, 2021, 05:06:14 pm
Blue Scar - now there is a crag I would love to visit and yet never manage it!!  :chair: Some years I get permission and it doesn't dry, other years I don't get round to getting permission.

What are the routes to do there?

Central Wall and The Shootist are the two that I thought looked good.

Priaprism? What are the E6s like there? Looks like a mega crag.

Maybe 2022 will be the year...?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: tc on November 30, 2021, 05:06:48 pm
Chris Gore, Zero, 1983
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: T_B on November 30, 2021, 05:09:19 pm
I'm not sure 9th life is more dangerous if you don't clip the peg on Death Wish, but is it quite artificial not to? I agree it's probably not E7....

Just comparing the comfort afforded by a small wire and a fixed hex whilst stood in balance to blu tacking skyhooks in place hanging off your arms.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Stu Littlefair on November 30, 2021, 06:14:19 pm
Yeah, you might be right - it’s been a while!
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: andy popp on November 30, 2021, 06:25:37 pm
When did the Zero upgrade happen? And is it now solidly consensus? Not disputing it, as I've never been on it, but I've only just become aware of it. Would this not make one of the first, if not the first, E7s in the country?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: petejh on November 30, 2021, 09:56:29 pm
CC guide has the story. E6 originally, straightened out (accidentally) at E7 by Andy Pollitt.

(https://i.imgur.com/VdvGvFj.jpg?1)


(https://i.imgur.com/q4zSA8H.jpg?1)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: grimer on November 30, 2021, 11:14:41 pm
History, like this, is such a hard-to-define thing. This thread is looking back through today's eyes (via grades ascribed in 2021) to the achievements of the past. I keep thinking that things didn't work the way we see them today.

Cave Arete Direct on Laddow from like 1920 gets 'The First E1', but it's short and above heather and I wouldn't be surprised if there were harder leads about at the time.

The Rasp, today, gets E2. Goliath, E4/5. Steve Bancroft once told me that, in his day, Goliath was just the nest thing you did after The Rasp. So in the 1970s they were much the same. Grades put Goliath close to White Wand, but they were decades apart, and rightly so.

Surely the important thing is what were the big leaps in the era in question. And I guess for that you have to ask Ando Popp and his contemporaries, people climbing around when the first E7 onsights / flashes or whatever were happening. What felt like the new thing?

Patch on Raped; Bransby on Impact Day; Leo on Masters; Steve Mac on Nightmayer; James on everything?

What are today's breakthroughs?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on November 30, 2021, 11:30:59 pm
Good insight but also the significance of some things weren’t truly appreciated at the time they were done
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 01, 2021, 01:35:06 am
Interesting that Death Wish has held its grade. Personally I don’t think it’s E7. Fair enough I did it with the peg but reckoned F7a climbing at the time. Compare that to Woodward’s Ninth Life of the same era which is F7b, pumpier and more dangerous. Or Beau Geste, also from ‘82, in a completely different league of technical difficulty (F7c+ or Font 7b). But I guess if you name your route ‘Death Wish’ the grade is more likely to stick?!

JD and Leechy climbed Beau Geste "onsight" in ~86. Forgot that ; was belaying. Considered E6 at the time. Of course, beta re gear (the wire), and it still had the pebble.

I think this is an interesting concept, in that E7 is more than just the number on a scale.

The significance is the breakthrough at a particular juncture; next level.

That's the way that new grades are formed, and it's not a fixed or linear/straight line scale. The next level grows from what was before. When the next grade is added - say E8 - the grade before loses it's breakthrough heftiness, and then gets shuffled down to account for - in this case - the harder "E6"s.

So there's a valid question re whether what "counts" (ridiculous to put it that way of course) is the ascent of what would now be given E7, vs what would have been given E7 in it's historical context.

i.e. when was the first ground breaking ascent at the grade, made?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on December 01, 2021, 07:41:41 am
History, like this, is such a hard-to-define thing. This thread is looking back through today's eyes (via grades ascribed in 2021) to the achievements of the past. I keep thinking that things didn't work the way we see them today.

Cave Arete Direct on Laddow from like 1920 gets 'The First E1', but it's short and above heather and I wouldn't be surprised if there were harder leads about at the time.

The Rasp, today, gets E2. Goliath, E4/5. Steve Bancroft once told me that, in his day, Goliath was just the nest thing you did after The Rasp. So in the 1970s they were much the same. Grades put Goliath close to White Wand, but they were decades apart, and rightly so.

Surely the important thing is what were the big leaps in the era in question. And I guess for that you have to ask Ando Popp and his contemporaries, people climbing around when the first E7 onsights / flashes or whatever were happening. What felt like the new thing?

Patch on Raped; Bransby on Impact Day; Leo on Masters; Steve Mac on Nightmayer; James on everything?

What are today's breakthroughs?

I think this is an excellent point. I've had a few goes at putting together 'first of the grade' lists on climbing-history.org but it always seems to work out strangely: if you just go by the numbers you end up with things that have recently been upgraded going in, whereas at the time they were clearly not such a big thing.

All complicated by changes in technology and style too. I can imagine The Rasp and Goliath feel fairly similar if you've not got a phat rack of cams dangling off your harness and some sport fitness from your recent kalymnos trip. I bet they weren't milking the kneebars on the rasp back in the day!

The 'first 9a+' is a good example of this, with the answer spanning 4 routes and 5 years depending on who you ask and which routes you retrospectively upgrade.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: webbo on December 01, 2021, 07:55:41 am
History, like this, is such a hard-to-define thing. This thread is looking back through today's eyes (via grades ascribed in 2021) to the achievements of the past. I keep thinking that things didn't work the way we see them today.

Cave Arete Direct on Laddow from like 1920 gets 'The First E1', but it's short and above heather and I wouldn't be surprised if there were harder leads about at the time.

The Rasp, today, gets E2. Goliath, E4/5. Steve Bancroft once told me that, in his day, Goliath was just the nest thing you did after The Rasp. So in the 1970s they were much the same. Grades put Goliath close to White Wand, but they were decades apart, and rightly so.

Also in the early to mid 70’s people were still using a resting point on the thread on the Rasp.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: SamT on December 01, 2021, 12:05:11 pm
. I bet they weren't milking the kneebars on the rasp back in the day!

 :-\   -   I'll bet the mortgage that Don didn't layback the whole thing on the FA.

I suspect he was somewhat milking the kneebar as he threaded the chockstone.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 01, 2021, 06:55:29 pm
History, like this, is such a hard-to-define thing. This thread is looking back through today's eyes (via grades ascribed in 2021) to the achievements of the past. I keep thinking that things didn't work the way we see them today.

Cave Arete Direct on Laddow from like 1920 gets 'The First E1', but it's short and above heather and I wouldn't be surprised if there were harder leads about at the time.

The Rasp, today, gets E2. Goliath, E4/5. Steve Bancroft once told me that, in his day, Goliath was just the nest thing you did after The Rasp. So in the 1970s they were much the same. Grades put Goliath close to White Wand, but they were decades apart, and rightly so.

Surely the important thing is what were the big leaps in the era in question. And I guess for that you have to ask Ando Popp and his contemporaries, people climbing around when the first E7 onsights / flashes or whatever were happening. What felt like the new thing?

Patch on Raped; Bransby on Impact Day; Leo on Masters; Steve Mac on Nightmayer; James on everything?

What are today's breakthroughs?

I think this is an excellent point. I've had a few goes at putting together 'first of the grade' lists on climbing-history.org but it always seems to work out strangely: if you just go by the numbers you end up with things that have recently been upgraded going in, whereas at the time they were clearly not such a big thing.

All complicated by changes in technology and style too. I can imagine The Rasp and Goliath feel fairly similar if you've not got a phat rack of cams dangling off your harness and some sport fitness from your recent kalymnos trip. I bet they weren't milking the kneebars on the rasp back in the day!

The 'first 9a+' is a good example of this, with the answer spanning 4 routes and 5 years depending on who you ask and which routes you retrospectively upgrade.


.."if you just go by the numbers you end up with things that have recently been upgraded going in, whereas at the time they were clearly not such a big thing".

That's the point I was making. I hadn't seen Grimer's very un-grimer like post above.  ;D

But surely that's the context in which we're really asking the question. What ascents were breaking new ground from what had gone before?

A slightly different point, is that from a historical perspective it's also worth thinking about practices at the time - what was the norm - what would have been considered no great deal at the time.

Re not having a rack of massive cams on Goliath - and perhaps related to current practices at the time, a funny incident occurred with Dave Pegg on the route.
He'd made the trip out to Burbage before the rest of us, and when we arrived, we all waved back to Dave, who was waving to us from the edge. We dived into the quarry to muck about for a while. When we came out and started walking up to the edge, Dave was still waving and yelling, hugging the chockstone on Goliath, having tried to solo it. We found it very funny  :lol: He was definitely milking the knee-bar.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Will Hunt on December 01, 2021, 07:20:06 pm
 :clap2:
Brilliant, Dave.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on December 02, 2021, 09:59:27 am
On the subject of "ascents that were breaking new ground from what had gone before", when you did Terra Cotta, Dave, was it onsight?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Wil on December 02, 2021, 11:23:21 am
When you did Terra Cotta, Dave, was it onsight?

Abseil inspected (https://factortwo.co.uk/more-than-a-dream-dave-thomas), but not as much as he might have wanted!
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Steve Crowe on December 02, 2021, 11:37:19 am
On Sight: The First E7.

I hate the idea that if I’ve climbed one route on sight then I can’t claim to on sight any other route that shares any climbing with the former.

This is such an interesting topic with some great stories and it’s all those varied approaches and the honesty (dishonesty) of what went on that’s so engaging.  Rather than trying to identify one ascent as the first perhaps someone should write this all up in a book for Vertabrate Publishing.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on December 02, 2021, 11:44:40 am
When you did Terra Cotta, Dave, was it onsight?

Abseil inspected (https://factortwo.co.uk/more-than-a-dream-dave-thomas), but not as much as he might have wanted!

It's a funny thing isn't it, if you were to apply the strict definition you'd have to say that Dave had worked the route, but on the other hand it is one of the boldest pieces of climbing I know of, so out there you'd have to throw away the atlas and get out the star map!
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: shark on December 02, 2021, 12:16:35 pm
Rather than trying to identify one ascent as the first perhaps someone should write this all up in a book for Vertabrate Publishing.

Documenting hard impressive ascents done in good style would make for good reading and include typical onsight disqualifiers such as shared starts, abseil inspection, minimal practice and some beta.     
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: SA Chris on December 02, 2021, 01:47:58 pm
A sequel to Unjustifiable Risk?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/publications/other_publications/unjustifiable_risk_by_simon_thompson-2949
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 02, 2021, 10:20:49 pm
When you did Terra Cotta, Dave, was it onsight?

Abseil inspected (https://factortwo.co.uk/more-than-a-dream-dave-thomas), but not as much as he might have wanted!

It's a funny thing isn't it, if you were to apply the strict definition you'd have to say that Dave had worked the route, but on the other hand it is one of the boldest pieces of climbing I know of, so out there you'd have to throw away the atlas and get out the star map!

Weird things happen when you become familiar with some crags.
I'd been looking up from the cave with a view to just doing it as a lead anyway, but could tell from the ground that the large block on the lip could well be loose, so thought I'd better give it a look. I'd done Caveman a couple of times - btw, no one has soloed Caveman, as the hardest climbing is after the cool roof bit - and just thought the direct would be cool as a single pitch blast from Moonraker.

Abbed it, and knocked the block off, so wanted to see if it would still go, but just tried that one move - a completely stupid way, with weight on the rope, and thinking "That'll do". No aspirations of soloing it at that point, so wasn't sure where the large block beneath was.

Arrived with Frank Ramsey, and had already "joked" about soloing it. Got to the move on the lip, and realised it didn't climb as I thought. It may not be too bad - edit. It's probably easy, but just one of those "Oh flip" moments; biggish move - but I was just in commitment mode, and in a bit of a rush  ;D
Would love to go back with someone to lead it if anyone fancies. Part of Caveman pitch two has fallen off, so needs re-climbing anyway.

I can't remember what it was, but something reminded me the other day of how close to binning it I'd been on Call to Arms a year or so later  ;)  :lol:

There were a lot of folk soloing stuff back then. It was just a different scene. Simon Nadin's solo of Menopause is the one I'd put out there. A real stand-out that.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Ged on December 02, 2021, 10:51:43 pm
When you did Terra Cotta, Dave, was it onsight?

Abseil inspected (https://factortwo.co.uk/more-than-a-dream-dave-thomas), but not as much as he might have wanted!

It's a funny thing isn't it, if you were to apply the strict definition you'd have to say that Dave had worked the route, but on the other hand it is one of the boldest pieces of climbing I know of, so out there you'd have to throw away the atlas and get out the star map!

Weird things happen when you become familiar with some crags.
I'd been looking up from the cave with a view to just doing it as a lead anyway, but could tell from the ground that the large block on the lip could well be loose, so thought I'd better give it a look. I'd done Caveman a couple of times - btw, no one has soloed Caveman, as the hardest climbing is after the cool roof bit - and just thought the direct would be cool as a single pitch blast from Moonraker.

Abbed it, and knocked the block off, so wanted to see if it would still go, but just tried that one move - a completely stupid way, with weight on the rope, and thinking "That'll do". No aspirations of soloing it at that point, so wasn't sure where the large block beneath was.

Arrived with Frank Ramsey, and had already "joked" about soloing it. Got to the move on the lip, and realised it didn't climb as I thought. It may not be too bad - edit. It's probably easy, but just one of those "Oh flip" moments; biggish move - but I was just in commitment mode, and in a bit of a rush  ;D
Would love to go back with someone to lead it if anyone fancies. Part of Caveman pitch two has fallen off, so needs re-climbing anyway.

I can't remember what it was, but something reminded me the other day of how close to binning it I'd been on Call to Arms a year or so later  ;)  :lol:

There were a lot of folk soloing stuff back then. It was just a different scene. Simon Nadin's solo of Menopause is the one I'd put out there. A real stand-out that.

What fell off caveman Dave? And when? Pitch 2 as in the crux bit into the niche hanging belay?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 03, 2021, 12:08:30 am
What fell off caveman Dave? And when? Pitch 2 as in the crux bit into the niche hanging belay?

Hi Ged.
Part of the big red hanging flake, as you leave the niche. Would be cool if it requires a jump now!  ;D

Go do it! And New Stone Age which is ace.

The Flaming Drambuie (direct) requires a bolt or two  ;)

All of this is very off topic of course.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: cwaddy on December 08, 2021, 01:31:39 pm
Some other early contenders are; Isis is angry, Birdy  (cilan head though I can't remember what grade it was given at the time. Might have been hard XS or something like that), Hardback Thesaurus. All reported as onsight at the time though obviously included falls at least on Hardback. All FAs as well. And all from mid to late 80s  I think. Also I'm pretty sure the Scoop was onsighted on the first few repeats and all ( including the crux )but the top pitch on the first ascent.

There could be some debate over the grades of some of these. Hardback being top end though. The most impressive piece of climbing I ever saw,, followed instantly by the least impressive bit of protecting of the second. I was not pleased by that as I had held the *****   ****s/visionary genius's ropes for several hours over a few days and I was keen to get an idea what it was all about but the fall for the second was potentially as dangerous as it was for him.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Duncan campbell on December 08, 2021, 03:06:52 pm
Was this because JD didn’t put any/much gear in the traverse on T-Rex? Or was it due to all the shit gear?

Has hardback been repeated?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: remus on December 08, 2021, 03:08:13 pm
Has hardback been repeated?

Twid has repeated it (according to the gogarth wiki).
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 08, 2021, 06:34:35 pm
Some other early contenders are...

I had held the *****   ****s/visionary genius's ropes for several hours over a few days and I was keen to get an idea what it was all about but the fall for the second was potentially as dangerous as it was for him.

Sorry, I can work out the second word, but still stuck on the first ;) Your solo of Dreadnought was impressively cool. There was a lot more of that sort of thing going on back then, wasn't there? Very Waddy  ;D  :wave:

Oh.. and I meant to ask, when was Enchanted repeated?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 08, 2021, 07:26:58 pm
the fall for the second was potentially as dangerous as it was for him.

I don’t get why the route traverses left at that point. Wouldn’t it make more sense to belay up right at the top of T Rex pitch 1?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: cwaddy on December 09, 2021, 01:18:14 pm
When he got to the T-rex traverse he decided on the spur of the moment to go left, thinking of finishing up golden bough, which may still have had a rest point, IIRC. But he didn't put any gear in the traverse so the second,  (Bob Drury- I was watching from the promontory where Al Hughes was filming, but I was hoping to second it) was going to face an ever nastier 30ft swing into the corner of T rex. That's why I declined... But at least it wasn't near the top of the Ogre in a storm, a la Doug Scott.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Duncan campbell on December 09, 2021, 05:11:11 pm
Was that horrifying sound thing Come to Mother that JD and Paul Pritch done onsight and E7? Sounds properly harrowing that.

Did you ever onsight E7, Crispin?
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: andy popp on December 09, 2021, 05:13:38 pm
I believe Come to Mother was legitimately onsight.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: IanP on December 09, 2021, 05:49:22 pm
I believe Come to Mother was legitimately onsight.

May be difficult to confirm the grade these days  :-\

(https://i.ibb.co/cvBJrjy/Image-2021-12-09-174706.png)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 09, 2021, 06:53:31 pm
And Professor Whittaker?

I've heard of some discussion of the grade since, but as with all these things, subsequent ascensionists will benefit from info from the first ascent.. steer clear of etc.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: IanP on December 09, 2021, 07:06:43 pm
And Professor Whittaker?

I've heard of some discussion of the grade since, but as with all these things, subsequent ascensionists will benefit from info from the first ascent.. steer clear of etc.

Just to be clear I wasn't questioning the grade, more the mixture of commitment and madness required to os first ascent of this sort of stuff.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mrjonathanr on December 09, 2021, 08:06:48 pm
When he got to the T-rex traverse he decided on the spur of the moment to go left, thinking of finishing up golden bough, which may still have had a rest point, IIRC. But he didn't put any gear in the traverse so the second,  (Bob Drury- I was watching from the promontory where Al Hughes was filming, but I was hoping to second it) was going to face an ever nastier 30ft swing into the corner of T rex. That's why I declined... But at least it wasn't near the top of the Ogre in a storm, a la Doug Scott.

Thanks Crispín. To be fair, the gear in the traverse isn’t very worthwhile, but I wouldn’t have wanted to be Bob finishing the last few moves facing that lob.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 09, 2021, 08:29:37 pm
In case of confusion, from Franco's Headpoint Article:

I think that in this context, On-sight, meaning ground up without practice is important. Whether flashed or not, much less so.

Professor Whitaker?

From 1988:

Hardback Thesaurus E7 6b, Gogarth, North Wales, first ascent, French 7c climbing and skyhook protection in the upper part, climbed without pre-inspection. Dawes took a 70’ near ground fall on one of his numerous attempts.

Professor Whittaker E7 6b 6a, Lleyn Peninsula, North Wales, first ascent, climbed without pre-inspection. Long runouts off bodyweight gear placements.

Then there's The Scoop on Strone.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: grimer on December 09, 2021, 09:08:45 pm
JD did some E7 thing near Path to Rome, which i think got E7. I did PtR with Adam Wainwright, who may or may not have been involved in FA. AW described PW as looking ok. JD had a monster hangover - as in salty dry mouth, can hardly speak type thing - as well as a fraction of a rack. What ensued, from what I can tell, was a full-bore E7 onsight lead bu Johnny.

The fact that subsequent ascensionist arrived sober, and with a full rack, and downgraded it to E4 doesn't take away from the fact that on the day KD pulled out a lead every bit as impressive as Hardback!
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fiend on December 09, 2021, 09:42:05 pm
JD did some E7 thing near Path to Rome, which i think got E7.
Quite possibly the same PW you're referring to??
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: grimer on December 10, 2021, 09:19:06 am
yes i think so
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: SA Chris on December 10, 2021, 09:33:03 am
The fact that subsequent ascensionist arrived sober, and with a full rack, and downgraded it to E4 doesn't take away from the fact that on the day KD pulled out a lead every bit as impressive as Hardback!

Big grades for bad conditions :)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Duncan campbell on December 10, 2021, 09:58:54 am
I’m gonna start doing more E3s hungover with a minimal rack and get me some more E6 ticks :worms:
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: grimer on December 10, 2021, 10:20:39 am
Well, I may have some facts wrong (it's only a story, remember), but please feel free to go and do Professor Whittaker with a few nuts and hexes and a rotten hangover and you can have a couple of spare grades. Your only disappointment will be that you lose half a point for not doing it as an onsight first ascent.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Duncan campbell on December 10, 2021, 11:00:47 am
I was just messing- certainly won’t be heading up prof. Whittaker with a few nuts hungover or not!

Defo didn’t mean to come across as a dick there but reading back I do. So sozzles

Remember doing Byzantium at Craig Doris with a normal single rack of cams (plus normal double set of wites) and after the bold initial slab just had a single cam between me and the deck. Serendipitously each break took a different size of cam so could ration them to a cam per break and topped out with all/most of my wires and no cams. Spoke to rob greenwad about it after and he said he’d had a triple rack of cams!! Felt pretty spice for E4!
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: grimer on December 10, 2021, 11:40:14 am
Sorry Dunc was messing too :-)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: SA Chris on December 13, 2021, 11:35:46 am
You're both dicks but in a good way.

After all UKB is just 8 or so boulderers arguing about grades, right Grimer? :)
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Johnny Brown on December 13, 2021, 12:41:16 pm
Yeah I think I was on Path to Rome when Professor got repeated. E4/5 was mooted, 'must have been having a really bad day'.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 13, 2021, 06:10:39 pm

UKB is just 8 or so boulderers arguing about grades, right Grimer? :)

That's a bit vague isn't it. Is that like 8/9/9+?  ;D
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: SamT on December 13, 2021, 10:41:16 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Bonjoy on December 14, 2021, 10:58:54 am

UKB is just 8 or so boulderers arguing about grades, right Grimer? :)

That's a bit vague isn't it. Is that like 8/9/9+?  ;D
Depends who you count as a boulderer. Maybe it should be on fractions based on the amount of time spent bouldering.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 14, 2021, 09:44:25 pm
Talking of split grades, E7 sport equivalent etc, (kind of on topic) I thought it was a stroke of genius to see the FA of Zoolook recorded in the back of High magazine at E7 6c/d .. until I saw the route misspelt Zodook or something like that. That was back when Fawcett was considering the tech grade as something that included cumulative physical effort, and some people claimed the grade of 7a didn't really exist.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mick J on December 15, 2021, 11:35:09 am
Some insight into Gogarth adventures in the early 90s ... I climbed a lot here throughout this period and also many years leading up to it ... always with an old school no nonsense crew with no blurred lines regarding ethics which meant full clarity and a strictly on sight no inspection approach . My best effort is documented in the white cliff, an attempt at a pure onsight of the Bells which ended up with me grabbing the peg and getting it next go ... had the peg been tied off or extended it wouldn't have been a problem ... still a harrowing lead . The one that got away was Hardback .. I was drawn to this as Jonny said it was as hard as New Dawn so not very .. I didn't factor in the shit gear and some dubious rock . After a couple of days and some big falls I bailed at the overlap and escaped up Trex . I lowered down to get the abandoned gear and top roped the brilliant headwall above up small twin flakes to a thank god jug ..the top is hard and would be very intimidating on the lead . That was game over for me since id practiced it . Dont know what anyone else has done on this but its fantastic and probably a path by todays standards .. is anyone interesed anymore ? 
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 15, 2021, 07:51:04 pm
That's great info Mick.

I hope folk are interested.

The significant ascents are often the ones that don't quite make it - the levels people are operating at under the radar.
On the Bells, out of interest, what gear did you have in the Cad? I found you were soloing already when you got to the end of the traverse. I spoke to Andy, and he said he'd found some micros at foot level before committing to that section to the peg (the first hard climbing). Sounds like you had a bit of a gripper there!  ;D
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: mick J on December 16, 2021, 09:21:46 am
Hi Dave hope things are good .. no gear in the Cad above traversing right so yes soloing up to the peg ... having gear up by the bolt is not doing the route .. took along time to commit and was eyeballing the peg but couldnt clip ... just managed to get a quickdraw on and grab it ! I subsequently found out that other ascents had the peg tied off / extended ..oh well .
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Johnny Brown on December 16, 2021, 01:54:02 pm
Quote
I hope folk are interested.

I think a fair few are.

Quote
The significant ascents are often the ones that don't quite make it - the levels people are operating at under the radar.

Doesn't need to be under the radar, repeats are rarely big news and nearly-but-not-quite repeats not news at all. That's always been a failure of climbing media I think, pulling out the 'significant' ascents rather than the most interesting or inspiring. But it's human nature and resources rather than deliberate I suppose.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 16, 2021, 05:17:09 pm
They tend to be "under the radar" though JB. It wasn't an expression of something intended.

The best stories are the ones that inspire towards better things, to build upon (I don't mean in a patioed, twelve matts kind of way  ;) ).

Edit: I guess I disagree with nearly-but-not-quite repeats not being news. It's where the depth and complexity lies.
Anyway, the Insignificant Repeats thread is at 412 pages!

Through the media, I think we very often tend towards commodifying things, and away from the experiential, which is why Mick's post is so important. Agree? :thumbsup:
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Fiend on December 16, 2021, 08:03:46 pm
Definitely very interested in the topic, anecdotes, tall tales, and shenanigans  :2thumbsup:
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: Johnny Brown on December 17, 2021, 12:23:33 pm
I guess I disagree with nearly-but-not-quite repeats not being news. It's where the depth and complexity lies.

Through the media, I think we very often tend towards commodifying things, and away from the experiential, which is why Mick's post is so important. Agree? :thumbsup:

Yes absolutely, that's what I was trying to say. The great thing about forums is they democratise the news away from the gatekeepers of the past.
Title: Re: First E7 onsight
Post by: DAVETHOMAS90 on December 17, 2021, 08:55:04 pm
Hi Dave hope things are good .. no gear in the Cad above traversing right so yes soloing up to the peg ... having gear up by the bolt is not doing the route .. took along time to commit and was eyeballing the peg but couldnt clip ... just managed to get a quickdraw on and grab it ! I subsequently found out that other ascents had the peg tied off / extended ..oh well .

Sorry Mick. I hadn't seen your post.
That's a mighty fine effort  :2thumbsup:

Really good to get a bit more info about other people's efforts on these things. I'd hi-jacked a Japanese climber for the trip to Wales, and he was pretty perturbed about the prospects.

What constitutes a successful ascent?
I'd certainly say that yours does, but maybe not as unblemished as you'd like. A great effort.
There are a lot of lines that get blurred with some of the more high profile ascents, that folk don't want to ask questions about.

I think that some prior knowledge fits with the whole  ethic - i.e. a bit of info on what you might expect, so good to raise that question in the context of this thread  :thumbsup:
SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal