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the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: DavidM on January 31, 2023, 12:30:42 pm
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Hi all,
Hoping to see if anyone can help with some wisdom and experience. I've noticed in recent years recovery isn't as good despite doing the usual things and living clean. I'm now 38 with two kids which is to be expected I guess but i'm always looking to improve sleep and recovery. I train in the evening usually between 5pm-7.30pm exclusively bouldering and board climb, eat after and regularly get my 8 hours sleep kids permitting. The thought of training at 4am won't work for me as I have the kids before work.
Outside of the normal recommended advice stretching, massage, adequate nutrition / refuelling, extra sleep, shorter sessions, avoiding alcohol and excess caffeine etc does anyone have any specific tips that have helped them or moved the needle?
Things that have moved the needle for me
-Not training too close to bed time i.e finishing session by latest 7.30pm and in bed by 10.30pm.
-Cold showers in morning
-Hot showers after evening climbing session
-Supplementing with glycine to lower body temperature after training in the evening
-Supplementing with Magnesium in the evening
-Drinking a lot more water after session so your hydrated throughout the night (Piss a lot during the night though)
I know there is a lot of info online but good to hear if anything worked for people that might help me and others aiming to get the most out of the training they are putting in.
thanks in Advance
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How many times a week are you currently training? Do you do the same volume of training each week, or do you have deload weeks or a schedule of easier and harder weeks?
I'm finding I need to spend more time on 'supplementary' exercises as I get older - stretching/mobility/strength etc. Partly this is rehabbing or trying to prevent re-occurrence of injuries, some of it is to address weaknesses, some is just as a 'recovery' session - something relatively easy that keeps me moving. Exclusively bouldering and board climbing breaks me.
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Family and work often induce deload or rest weeks but I don't formally structure them no.
My recent sessions have been as below as I had my second child recently and not had too much time to get to the gym or go outdoors
I do 3 sessions a week usually no longer than 2hr 15mins. I spend the first 40 mins finger training no hangs from ground deadlift style and in between hangs I do weighted pull ups / chin ups and some mobility stuff in between. I've found doing regular finger boarding has helped keep my fingers healthy and pulling from floor has helped shoulder issues that seem to occur with overhead hanging.
Rest for a bit and then 1hr of board climbing on home wall for instance (this can be limit bouldering 5-8 moves or easier session of volume of easier problems that are still fairly hard) 3-5mins rest between attempts.
After that 30 min circuit of antagonists strength stuff to keep healthy and balanced. 3 sets of each. Weighted dips on rings, One arm shoulder scapula pulls downs, Reverse wrist curls, Single arm rows with rings, Y's or T's with rings.
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Sounds reasonably balanced. Are you taking into account that the load on you, on your nervous system, includes the training plus all the other stressors- work, family, sufficient sleep or not etc.
Recovery from any climbing load sits in an overall context.
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I'm 46 with 2 young kids. Sounds good what you're doing, more than I do with supplements etc. I'll train 3/4 times a week, usually on the board. If training power/strength, keep the volume as low as possible, and no more than 1 1/2hr session. Aim massively at quality not quantity. Try to not wake up sore from anything. The ideal regime for me...
Up at 8, kids sort etc.
Work at 9, usually on feet all day and physical work.
I eat tea at 5 with kids.
Power nap 30-45mins on settee.
Kids in bed.
On the board for 8.30-9. Cut off time is 9.30
Do session.
Eat again & drink loads (preferably not beer)
Bed for 12-1.00.
7-8 hours good sleep.
Rinse and repeat.
Days off I stretch for 45 mins in eve, certainly helps recovery, but essential for old back injuries.
The power nap tends to work really well, as I'm pretty fresh on the board. Without I'm groggy and clunky and at risk of injury.
This has been my ritual for over 2 years now and I'm as strong if not stronger than my early 20's. Certainly takes a day extra to recover but I expect that now. Pretty easy to gauge when I've over done it, as I wake up feeling like I've just finished the session the night before.
Endurance, especially on the board, is another ball game entirely. I find switching to training 2 or 3 days on then 4 off works loads better, to get decent recovery. Otherwise I just work myself into the ground and grind to a halt. For years I did day on day off, this worked fine, not now.
Also can't express the 'importance of being idle' enough. For me kids, physical job, training, head still at 30, body a bit further along, got to remember to stop when you can. Save it for the board.
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Here's a quick one - take a bog standard 20mg zinc supplement if you aren't already. For protecting testosterone depletion as you age. Drop in T linked to various ailments from mid-late 30s onward, including poor recovery, poor sleep and general fatigue/lack of response to training.
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Thats interesting post Probes and similar to mine apart from waking / sleep timing. I regularly stretch for 45 mins as well that helps. Roll out the back and glutes daily etc which really helps lower back.
-Are you just bouldering or route climbing as well?
-The power nap do you fall asleep or just resting before the board session?
-The board endurance training schedule you mention- 2/3 days on and then 4 off. Is this endurance for bouldering or for route climbing. If bouldering what endurance exercises do you prefer or found successful? Do you have 4 days complete rest in this cycle?
- What does a boulders de-load week look like in practice.? Is it same intensity but halving the amounts of sessions? Or do you dial back both.?
thanks petejh I thought I would be covered with a decent clean diet including enough meat and shellfish to cover the zinc requirements. Will consider and try that.
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I don't think that a well maintained body of a non-sedentary 50 year-old is much different than one of a 30 year-old. But don't get injured. Ever.
However, I would not take any supplements* without a blood test showing particular deficiencies. Varied healthy non-insane eating is much better imnsho
*(Other than B12 if vegetarian)
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Totally agree jwi about a sensible diet and I feel I have all the trace elements/ macros are covered nicely and eat really well. I have found that the glycine helps lower my body temperature after hard sessions in the evening. My sleep is compromised from hard sessions with warm body for few hours after and I was waking frequently with irritability. No problem getting to sleep or back to sleep. Additionally loads of hydration, natural fibre bedding that allows heat to escape and the glycine before bed and occasionally the magnesium helps I've found.
Easily said than done "not getting injured" when your pushing yourself and really enjoy training.
Any tips on that front?
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Sounds like you're doing most things right. Are you eating enough? A calorie deficit will trash your recovery more than any supplement can undo. I've found that very gradually increasing my calorie intake over a long time seems to have increased my metabolic rate and energy levels. I now maintain my weight on around 3,000kCals per day (and I work from home on a PC).
However, I would not take any supplements* without a blood test showing particular deficiencies. Varied healthy non-insane eating is much better imnsho
*(Other than B12 if vegetarian)
Creatine monohydrate? Very few people can max that out with varied eating and it's one of the few supplements with tons of evidence supporting its efficacy.
Here's a quick one - take a bog standard 20mg zinc supplement if you aren't already. For protecting testosterone depletion as you age. Drop in T linked to various ailments from mid-late 30s onward, including poor recovery, poor sleep and general fatigue/lack of response to training.
If / when I have issues relating to low testosterone I'll probably begin injecting it!
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Easily said than done "not getting injured" when your pushing yourself and really enjoy training.
Any tips on that front?
I have a few hard rules: any move with possible bad falls is out during training. So no heel hooking on steep terrain except on the first two moves, no sideways jumps above the first or possibly second move, no hard moves towards the top of the wall in a modern indoor bouldering gym. For sport climbing I always pre-clip the second draw and the third if practicable as I have no intention of ever hitting the ground.
(Addendum: I more-or-less stopped outdoor bouldering as I don't like ground falls. This is not a big sacrifice for me as the local bouldering is not great compared to the cragging. I imagined that if I did more outdoor bouldering I would not hesitate to toprope boulders if necessary.)
During training I never do a dynamic move where the feet cut loose if I am to weak to completely control the target hold.
For acute injuries I immediately stop the session if I get sharp pain in the fingers, elbows or shoulders. No exceptions, no excuses. It sucks when I pay a 15 euro entry fee and have to cut the visit short directly after the warm-up, but injuries suck more.
I have almost never gotten overuse injuries in twenty-five years of climbing, possibly because I am lazy, so I would not know how to manage them.
Creatine monohydrate? Very few people can max that out with varied eating and it's one of the few supplements with tons of evidence supporting its efficacy.
I know lots of climbers who have tried to supplement creatine, but I have yet to meet someone who concluded that it was worth it. I might change my mind if there was a double blind study that concluded that supplementing it improved performance in competition climbing (difficulty) or outdoor sport climbing.
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Are you eating enough?
Well I enjoy food, cooking and eat well so don't hold back in that regard. I exclusively cook from scratch with adequate protein and veggies. I'm 5ft 11 and weight around 77kg fairly lean.
It's not especially the recovery for the next session but the impact of a hard session on my nervous system and the impact on sleep quality that hampers the recovery.
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It's not especially the recovery for the next session but the impact of a hard session on my nervous system and the impact on sleep quality that hampers the recovery.
Have you tried non-sleep deep rest type exercises? They are really good for calming down an over-wrought nervous system. Also box breathing or “coherent breathing” exercises could help.
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During lockdown I was training 4-5 days a week (I was 51 then) and basically 'got used' to aching at night and in the morning. After a few months it didn't seem to bother me so much. That sounds a bit weird - but is pretty much how it was.
I've knocked down the intensity now (2-3 times a week) and have no real problems. Like you - anything too late (past 9pm) makes sleep harder.
I did find I'd alternate what I pushed training wise. So one session would be (for example) one arm hangs, assisted one arm pullups, weighted two arm pull ups. Next one might be a very fingery session on the board - perhaps some assisted one arm hangs on crimps. Next one would be more regular climbing focusing on big dynamic moves on fairly good holds (etc..).
Final point - climbing is f*cking brutal on the body. I'm now doing other non strength based exercise 2-3 times a week and the recovery from that (despite it working my CV quite alot) is piss easy compared to climbing!!
n=1 etc..
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Supplementing climbing with antagonist type exercises for overall health is wise, but a key way to avoid overuse injuries is to keep climbing regularly at consistent level.
If you want to dive into it, start here:tim gabett on managing training loads (https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/50/5/273?__hstc=196135283.0bb2ae1552d2dda845881b6516c33848.1481673600081.1481673600082.1481673600083.1) (pun intended)
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I can manage to boulder on my board 3 or 4 times a week either limit bouldering or volume. I also cycle which depending on the time of year can 6 hour plus rides with a couple of short interval sessions.
But the big but is I don’t work being retired for the last 4 years. The rest of my days is a bit of cleaning, cooking and walking my daughters dogs at the moment.
Yes I feel tired, beat up and weary at times but it doesn’t seem to stop me. I also drink red wine to excess.
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so the best thing to do for recovery is stop working? :-\ it has a certain appeal...
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so the best thing to do for recovery is stop working? :-\
Wasn’t this Maccy D’s advice in that 9/10 book? Sacrifice everything, leave your wife, quit work, sleep at the climbing wall, eat lard etc.
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No just drink more red wine.
Then the wife will leave with the kids and you probably lose your job. But it won’t be your fault that you ended up as a climbing bum.
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I'm 47 with 2 young kids and most of my climbing consists of board climbing. I've tried most things over the years - even bought an acrappi top for anyone who remembers that scam! Come to the conclusion that sleep is by far the most important thing and don't bother with any supplements anymore. For me changing to training at lunchtime has made the biggest change as any evening training seems to totally ruin my sleep. I'm lucky in that I have Flexi time, work from home and have a board. If it is at all possible I would give it a try.
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I'm enjoying this thread. I'm 44 with two young kids (5, 8 ) and more or less do all the things advised against here, and as a result don't climb that hard, and don't recover that well... By the time I've done my day's work, got the kids to bed, had dinner, caught up on any work I missed due to taking the kids to after-school clubs etc, I'm often not training until after 10, sometimes 11pm.
That said, I generally get out climbing in the middle of the day (and subsequently work until late at night to catch up the hours), so I can't complain about that.
My key takeaway from this is to prioritise sleep, which is something I've always struggled to do. There's so much info out there that it's the easiest 'win', a super-power, etc, but I just find it so hard to get to bed early.
Or, that I should retire, which definitely appeals.
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Is this the time to mention once you get in to your late 50’s no matter how long you’ve slept for. It feels like that you haven’t acutely been to sleep at all.
Just prey your prostrate holds out. :lol:
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I still say, sleep quality is affected negatively by (among other things inc stress obvs) decreasing testosterone in men as we age. Lots of evidence out there that managing T is fundamental to good health inc. good sleep. Just saying 'get more/better quality sleep' is a bit like saying 'get stronger'. How? Your body won't just give you more/better quality sleep - there actually is some biochemistry involved as well. Good intentions and sensible bedtimes will help of course. If you're looking at sleep/recovery in context of ageing then a lot of the stuff you're up against is linked to declining (or increasing) levels of hormones etc. Slowing this decline are lifestyle factors (working out especially in particular patterns and times related to fasting, not overloading, lowering stress) and dietary intake. Dietary is easily (and cheaply, compared to steak and fish etc) fortified with a few common and safe vits and minerals taken at RDA. Zinc and b-vits being the obvious, lacking in many western diets.
Admittedly I'm a numbers person and like it when something can be shown to be low or high and something done to increase or reduce, helping contribute to conditions that lead to a desired outcome.
Mindfullness, yoga etc, All end up working by acting on the levels of various chemicals in the brain/body.
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Thats interesting post Probes and similar to mine apart from waking / sleep timing. I regularly stretch for 45 mins as well that helps. Roll out the back and glutes daily etc which really helps lower back.
-Are you just bouldering or route climbing as well?
-The power nap do you fall asleep or just resting before the board session?
-The board endurance training schedule you mention- 2/3 days on and then 4 off. Is this endurance for bouldering or for route climbing. If bouldering what endurance exercises do you prefer or found successful? Do you have 4 days complete rest in this cycle?
- What does a boulders de-load week look like in practice.? Is it same intensity but halving the amounts of sessions? Or do you dial back both.?
thanks petejh I thought I would be covered with a decent clean diet including enough meat and shellfish to cover the zinc requirements. Will consider and try that.
-Are you just bouldering or route climbing as well?
Atm I'm just bouldering, but always with routes in the back of my mind. Life/time has just dictated that. I also have an ongoing saga of a Longridge traverse project, that I put effort into every year, so I try to keep a level where if and when I'm on it, I can get back up to speed endurance wise in a couple of months.
-The power nap do you fall asleep or just resting before the board session? Flat out snooring my head off, much to the annoyance of partner. There's usually True & the Rainbow Kingdom blarring on tele and some sort of super hero fight going on on the other settee.
-The board endurance training schedule you mention- 2/3 days on and then 4 off. Is this endurance for bouldering or for route climbing. If bouldering what endurance exercises do you prefer or found successful? Do you have 4 days complete rest in this cycle?
Its short period power endurance ( an cap? or whatever they call it these days :) ) 20-30 moves 1-2mins on. 4 times the rest. Aim for 6 to 8 of these, and I should be failing on the last couple if I've gauged it right. I do occasionally do switch to longer endurance (4+mins) but my board is a 50 and it ends up just jug hauling. I also have longridge 5 mins away so do that there. Yeah I usually do take about 4 off after a few days of this, unless I feel an easy session is ok or I just need to get on the board. It doesn't do my max finger strength much good but for all round fitness/strength I find it invaluable.
- What does a boulders de-load week look like in practice.? Is it same intensity but halving the amounts of sessions? Or do you dial back both.? How do you mean here? A resting/easy week?
In terms of bouldering and strength, if that's what I'm on with.. the one thing I've become far more aware of is gauging how you feel on the warm up, and this dictates what Ill do in the session. The plan is go for max but if I'm not for pulling really hard and don't feel fresh enough too, Ill switch straight to some strength type problems and exercises. That way I know I can get an hour of something decent in, rather than flailing around for an hour, realising I'm not 100% and wasting the session. Nothing too wrong with this I think, as I used to have loads of sessions where you got no-where but at same time you were learning moves and positions etc. for the next session. But I haven't the time now for this.
Regarding the zinc suppliments, I was recommended to take these (can't remember if it was a doc or family) as I lost my dad to prostrate cancer about 6 year ago. After a bit of research there seemed big pluses for it but then I found research where if you're too high it increases the risk. I've not gone any further with it. Re-looking at the research against, it seems most of these were american studies, and the subjects were popping them like smarties and no doubt popping steaks at the same rate. So no surprise they had high levels. Around 120mgs a day intake.
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I tend to agree I always try to prioritise sleep and take myself to bed early despite lack of free time with the kids in the evening. Helps the mrs is exhausted as well early evening so I don't mind winding down early and getting up early.
For me changing to training at lunchtime has made the biggest change as any evening training seems to totally ruin my sleep. If it is at all possible I would give it a try.
Unfortunately this isn't a solution well maybe. I do have a home board and work within 8 mins bike from my home so potentially I could fit some training in my 1 hour lunch. I have in the past put a fingerboard and pull up session in that 40mins when I haven't had chance to climb but a board session might be a struggle and hasty and lack quality. At the weekends I train at lunch and feel my sleep /recover is somewhat is improved compared to early evening sessions.
I am not looking to recreate the deep blissful sleep pre kids or in my teens I know this isn't attainable and sleep quality is always going to degrade over time so I accept that. To this end I actually never had a problem with sleep or getting to sleep even in the midst of stressful times in my life. Some great takeaways from everyone thanks.
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If you're getting up multiple times a night to piss (or even once) then you might actually be drinking too much water too late at night and screwing up your sleep cycle. Some good info here
https://www.risescience.com/blog/drinking-water-before-bed
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If you're getting up multiple times a night to piss (or even once) then you might actually be drinking too much water too late at night and screwing up your sleep cycle. Some good info here
https://www.risescience.com/blog/drinking-water-before-bed
Interesting. I have actually found upping the hydration considerably in and after my evening sessions has helped lower my body temperature and sleep quality throughout the night but couple of pisses during the night as a result but way less irritable. I might try cutting back entirely after 8pm as the link suggests. I'm acutely aware about eating late impacts sleep also but it I enjoy eating later and having yoghurt with fruit after diner as a treat as I don't eat deserts biscuits etc or sweet items at all.
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Same story here as everyone else, 40s, two kids, full time job etc.
Train on own board 2-4 times a week, warm up on board, climb for maybe 90 mins between 8.45 pm to 10.15.
30 mins weighted pull ups once a week.
Cycle to work twice a week.
Only had my own board for the past 18 months but feel stronger now than in the past.
Two specific thoughts:
Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?
Surely climbing on a board should train your fingers and core pretty well unless you are operating at a very high level.
Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?
If the non climbing training is not specifically to rehab an injury might it be worth trialling sacking off the rings etc.
I have been generally fitter in the past but felt little benefit in my climbing.
A general question:
Why does everyone love drinking water so much?
Surely drinking to thirst is adequate for a healthy person.
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Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?
Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?
Bit of context
-I only have a small 7.5ft high by 9ft wide @45 degree board so not a huge amount of upward movement.
-I use the 30-40mins finger boarding and pulls as part of warm up before hitting the board.
-I exclusively used the board for 6-8months and fingers felt tweaky and I got a pulley injury. Sometimes too psyched and not warming up fully maybe. I feel the progressive hangs from the floor warms the fingers up nicely, trains them and keeps them healthy. The weighted pull ups /chin ups offsets the lack of pulling upwards on the board due to space restraints.
- Rings work and end of session is mainly antagonist stuff to keep balanced and injury prevention in shoulder and forearm extensor. Dips, Y's or T's and reverse curls with dumbbell.
- Limited core training incorporated.
What would you consider dropping.?
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Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?
Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?
Totally plausible
Bit of context
-I only have a small 7.5ft high by 9ft wide @45 degree board so not a huge amount of upward movement.
-I use the 30-40mins finger boarding and pulls as part of warm up before hitting the board.
-I exclusively used the board for 6-8months and fingers felt tweaky and I got a pulley injury. Sometimes too psyched and not warming up fully maybe. I feel the progressive hangs from the floor warms the fingers up nicely, trains them and keeps them healthy. The weighted pull ups /chin ups offsets the lack of pulling upwards on the board due to space restraints.
- Rings work and end of session is mainly antagonist stuff to keep balanced and injury prevention in shoulder and forearm extensor. Dips, Y's or T's and reverse curls with dumbbell.
- Limited core training incorporated.
What would you consider dropping.?
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Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?
Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?
Bit of context
-I only have a small 7.5ft high by 9ft wide @45 degree board so not a huge amount of upward movement.
-I use the 30-40mins finger boarding and pulls as part of warm up before hitting the board.
-I exclusively used the board for 6-8months and fingers felt tweaky and I got a pulley injury. Sometimes too psyched and not warming up fully maybe. I feel the progressive hangs from the floor warms the fingers up nicely, trains them and keeps them healthy. The weighted pull ups /chin ups offsets the lack of pulling upwards on the board due to space restraints.
- Rings work and end of session is mainly antagonist stuff to keep balanced and injury prevention in shoulder and forearm extensor. Dips, Y's or T's and reverse curls with dumbbell.
- Limited core training incorporated.
What would you consider dropping.?
Opening this one to the board...but is 45 mins of warming up not really excessive?
As part of a lattice assessment I did a couple of years back, the coach commented that my warm up was all wrong for doing limit sessions (which I presume your board session is). I was gradually working my way through varying difficulty of problems. 10 - 15 from easy to moderate, finishing on some closer to my limit.
He reckoned I should warm up the same way I do for max hangs at home. 15-20 mins of progressively heavier but very short hangs, finished off with some explosive pulls and Tyler Nelson escque recruitment pulls. Typically I do:
Jump start pulls ups, dropping off (i.e. only upward pull, but assisted with some momentum). maybe 5 x 2
Some press ups and shoulder mobility
5 second hangs on big edge with feet on floor, maybe 5 secs on, 10-15 off. Do about 5 of those.
same with feet off floor
Then steadily ramp up by dropping edge size. As the difficulty goes up, the rest does too. My last hangs will be near max with at least a minute in between. Then it's one or two medium problems to get some coordination and core, then get on projects.
Changing to this warm up instantly got me up a few problems that I was struggling to do in parts
Should be noted that I'm not operating in the upper bouldering grades, more like Font 7A-7B on a good day - focus is always more sport (7c/8a) and trad.
Could too much volume in the warm up just be adding to the overall load?
Also, stretching, don't forget that vigorous stretching of any of the main climbing muscles on rest days *is* work. You can add quite a bit of load in a stretch and it might not be aiding recovery? (this last bit is a pet theory of mine - would love to see some SCIENCE to back up / refute but don't have the time right now - all I know if that too vigorous stretching has definitely slowed recovery from slight strains for me in the past, specially flexor unit strains. In fact, I used to stretch forearms loads and get loads of flexor unit strains, now I rarely stretch (deffo should do a bit more) and never get the strains. Haven't had one in years - used to get them multiple times a year) n=1
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I often have trouble sleeping because my wife likes to be much hotter in bed than me. We've always had winter and summer weight duvets, but last autumn when the summer one was getting to cold for her, I put the winter one on the bed for her and left me with the summer weight one. She was plenty cosy enough that I could even keep the window open for more fresh air which I've also founds improves recovery.
Worth bearing in mind also that a raised body temperature at night is a sign of your body working really hard to repair itself, the answer might just be to cut some of the intensity/volume from your training.
Also +1 on the cutting down the water intake before bed, I don't drink anything at all after 6pm(dinner). and have noticed I stay asleeo longer,
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, but last autumn when the summer one was getting to cold for her, I put the winter one on the bed for her and left me with the summer weight one.
Partner Duvet with different weights (https://linencupboard.co.uk/collections/partner-duvets-his-hers-split-tog-duvets) (or one of you wear thicker/thinner/no PJs)
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I often have trouble sleeping because my wife likes to be much hotter in bed than me. We've always had winter and summer weight duvets, but last autumn when the summer one was getting to cold for her, I put the winter one on the bed for her and left me with the summer weight one.
Good shout. After having kids and the whole sleep question is a topic of conversation the Mrs convinced me to buy a dual all silk duvet and pillow which I felt was ridiculously expensive at the time (£250 duvet & £70 pillow) but soon eat my hat because it was best purchase ever considering you spend half your life in bed. I get super hot at night compared to her and this allow all the heat to disperse and instantly better nights sleep. Normal synthetic duvet and pillows are now intolerable.
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Could too much volume in the warm up just be adding to the overall load?
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To clarify the warm up / strength sets...
Bike from work 8 mins then couple quick pull ups to get going
No hangs portable block from floor
3 lifts - half crimp
5 seconds on 3 seconds off @ 14mm edge
First set @ 33kg
Second set @ 37kg
Third set @ 42kg
Fourth set @ 46kg
Fifth set @ 46kg
4 mins rest between hangs
(Weighted pull ups during the 4 mins)
2-3 reps
First set @ 27kg
Second set @ 29kg
Third set @ 32kg
Fourth set @ 32kg
Grip 2 - back 2
5 seconds on 3 seconds off @ 14mm edge
First set @ 17kg
Second set @19kg
Third set @ 20kg
Fourth set @22kg
4 mins rest between hangs
(Weighted chin ups during the 4 mins)
2-3 reps
First set @ 27kg
Second set @ 29kg
Third set @ 32kg
Fourth set @ 32kg
Sometimes I only do one grip and it takes 25 mins and drop the chin ups. Sometimes two grips and chins ups take 45 min.
Then warm up the legs and hit the board. 1 easy warm up problem and then 2-3 medium hard problems then straight into the limit / project stuff
Thinking to get strength stuff in while fresh and build in an efficient warm up. Maybe all wrong.
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The only times in my life when I’ve regularly needed to get out of bed in the night for a piss have been during periods of stress. Obviously everyone’s different but I think it’s more a symptom of sleeping lightly than of how much you’ve drunk.
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Seems like a heck of a lot of "warm up" but I dunno everyone is different, maybe something to toy with though. If you don't mind a crass question how hard are you climbing?
Do you need to do all of the antagonists in the same session?
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That warm up sounds longer than some of my whole sessions!
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If you're getting up multiple times a night to piss (or even once) then you might actually be drinking too much water too late at night and screwing up your sleep cycle. Some good info here
https://www.risescience.com/blog/drinking-water-before-bed
You might also be getting older and producing less Anti-Diuretic Hormone.
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Its not a warm up per say just a way to get some strength work in whilst fresh and get warm simultaneously.
Hard to say what I’m climbing as I’ve only been training for a bit as I’ve had a second child recently but around 7a-7b so not hard at all. Not had much opportunity to get outdoors or at the wall at moment hence training volume I guess.
In terms of the antagonist stuff no it doesn’t have to be in same session but being time poor and recovery days needed I don’t want to through in more dedicated sessions to that if I’m honest and ultimately shoulders and elbows suffer without it.
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I’ve had a second child recently
Surely we've hit on the big issue here? How recent is this?
My personal experience is that at least the first 8-10 months of fatherhood, where for various reasons I was doing the majority of nighttime care, really knocked me in terms of interrupted / lack of sleep. It's one of those things that's hard to quantify, in that I could seemingly function somewhere close to normally during the day, go to work, drive, climb and train etc. And clearly some days / weeks were better than others. But overall I was consistently, deeply, fatigued and it's only more recently (at c. 16 months now) that I've started to recognise how much it was affecting me, and how different I feel now that she sleeps through the night more often / goes back to sleep more easily.
Obviously every parent is different and I don't know what your set up is with your partner, but this seems like it must be having an impact?
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Yeah it is but not as much as the first child I guess. The Mrs is doing the night as she’s breastfeeding exclusively so my nighttime is “ok” I often sleep with the boy in his room to escape. She’s defo doing the heavy lifting which is great but I get up early to take over so she rest before boy goes to school. I guess it’s going round back to the original post of how and what people do in these family situations to optimise recovery and any tips that have helped with experience.
I’m getting impression it might be a combination of over training and lifestyle factors.
Thanks for all the feedback.
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The only times in my life when I’ve regularly needed to get out of bed in the night for a piss have been during periods of stress. Obviously everyone’s different but I think it’s more a symptom of sleeping lightly than of how much you’ve drunk.
One of the most bizarre things I've experienced recently has been that I started to drink quite a bit more water (~2l more per day) and my need to piss at night has gone. I used to always wake around 2-3am for a piss which was actually really annoying especially when in the van or bivvying.
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Hi all,
Hoping to see if anyone can help with some wisdom and experience. I've noticed in recent years recovery isn't as good despite doing the usual things and living clean. I'm now 38 with two kids which is to be expected I guess but i'm always looking to improve sleep and recovery. I train in the evening usually between 5pm-7.30pm exclusively bouldering and board climb, eat after and regularly get my 8 hours sleep kids permitting. The thought of training at 4am won't work for me as I have the kids before work.
Outside of the normal recommended advice stretching, massage, adequate nutrition / refuelling, extra sleep, shorter sessions, avoiding alcohol and excess caffeine etc does anyone have any specific tips that have helped them or moved the needle?
Things that have moved the needle for me
-Not training too close to bed time i.e finishing session by latest 7.30pm and in bed by 10.30pm.
-Cold showers in morning
-Hot showers after evening climbing session
-Supplementing with glycine to lower body temperature after training in the evening
-Supplementing with Magnesium in the evening
-Drinking a lot more water after session so your hydrated throughout the night (Piss a lot during the night though)
I know there is a lot of info online but good to hear if anything worked for people that might help me and others aiming to get the most out of the training they are putting in.
thanks in Advance
I personally think your volume sounds reasonable and you clearly have your nutrition and lifestyle factors far more dialed than most people (including several pro climbers I know!).
That being said I think the pitfall here is that you've not got enough diversity in your training. You're doing a lot of high quality strength training and finger loading which is all great but needs to be kept more diverse in order to avoid overuse niggles that can lead on to proper injuries. From a training perspective you're also missing out on the opportunity to diversify your physical profile by working on similar stimuli in every session.
I'd advise swapping out one of your regular limit sessions for a power endurance session such as 3X6 ( 3 reps at flash limit with 30s-1min rest, 4 min rest between sets).
I'd also move the non-finger based stuff like weighted pulls to after the board session.
Something you didn't mention at all is a structure behind all the training which leads me to think that you're simply repeating this week-in week-out. When doing this kind of structured training it's really important to lay it onto a framework that includes deload periods to let the body recover. It's also important to build some progressive overload into this timeframe otherwise you can find yourself doing the same thing for several months but staying at a fairly similar level because you're handling the load easily.
Personally I like to use 4 week mesocycles with 3 week training blocks and 1 week deload.
Hope this helps :)
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Thanks MischaHY that really does help I guess I do fall into that trap of not sticking to a structured cycle.
Strangely I had been doing some 4x4s recently to vary the sessions if feeling weak or not pulling hard but was wondering if they would be most applicable for boulderers only. It's one thing I have overlooked power endurance and endurance for bouldering upon reflection. These intervals look good I will try.
Few questions
-Do you dedicate a whole session to these intervals.?
-In your 4 week cycles do you place the overload week 3 and de-load on week 4.
-What exactly does a de load week look like.? Half the volume / Half the intensity for example?
-How else do you see I could diversify my training?
Really appreciate everyone's input
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Apologies if I've missed a post but has DavidM said what he's generally training for?
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Shit - I should have been training FOR something all this time? what have I done with my life 🤦♂️
😁
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Revolutionary thinking, I know!
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GazM
I only boulder and live in London so climb the Cornish granite options below as they are local to me. Sometimes get to the southern sandstone crags.I have yearly trips to North Wales to just enjoy climbing but that's dropped off with kids. I acutely aware I am not dedicating enough time to outdoor climbing or even varied gym climbing at the moment with my second child born in August but trying to maintain some strength and fitness with some training during this period.
Two projects 7a+ on these two blocks currently.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/shoreditch_park_boulder-9490/
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/mabley_green_boulder-9499/
Best of what I can make of my location with work.
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Cool, thanks for replying. While everyone was giving their advice it struck me that without actually knowing what you were aiming for, the advice could be wildly off the mark!
Fortunately for you I know very little about training and have never performed at a high level so can't offer any good advice. However, I do have 2 young kids (3 and 5) and a basic home setup so have been following the thread with interest.
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I can give you the Dave Mac advice if you'd like?
Quit your job.
Move.
Sell your kids.
Ditch your wife.
More seriously, it sounds like your warm up might leave you warmed up for lifting and doing pull-ups but not bouldering? 3 warm up problems isn't much, even after hangs/pickups. Being warm for hanging/lifting is not the same as being fired up for climbing in my experience. I'd be tempted to replace a bunch of pickups with more bouldering, but others may differ.
Perhaps more pertinently, if you can list your warmup like that then surely that's a sign it's too rigid and boring and you need to add variety!
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I can give you the Dave Mac advice if you'd like?
Quit your job.
Move.
Sell your kids.
Ditch your wife.
so the best thing to do for recovery is stop working?
Wasn’t this Maccy D’s advice in that 9/10 book? Sacrifice everything, leave your wife, quit work, sleep at the climbing wall, eat lard etc.
Copy cat :P
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That'll teach me to skim read :chair:
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Cool, thanks for replying. While everyone was giving their advice it struck me that without actually knowing what you were aiming for, the advice could be wildly off the mark!
Great question though. I know it's going slightly off topic with personal training / planning advice but i'm super grateful for everyones input with their wealth of experience. I think turning a basic home setup into something a little more substantial has proven invaluable with second child, being time poor and keeping psyched.
Abarro81 - thanks for the suggestion i'll experiment with that to.
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There’s only one page in 9 out of 10 climbers where Dave Max talks about how personal circumstances affect performance. I think it was a later article or blogpost where he was more forceful in his advice about it. I remember Nibile in particular going nuts about it :lol:
Edit: Here it is (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,14965.msg467493.html#msg467493) it’s nowhere near as inflammatory as anyone seems to remember it. I think the whataboutery that followed on here is what’s led us all to recall it as “get divorced and camp under the crag or you’ll never be any good” :lol:
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Few questions
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-In your 4 week cycles do you place the overload week 3 and de-load on week 4.
-What exactly does a de load week look like.? Half the volume / Half the intensity for example?
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You've different options with a 4 week cycle. You could move to a 3-1 schedule where you do 3 weeks on followed by a ~1/2 volume deload week. In terms of % of the cycles total training time per week, this would be something like 28%, 28%, 28%, 16%.
You could do a progressive schedule where you have an easier week (22% of cycles total training time), medium week (28%), hard week (35%) then a deload week (15%).
I've seen it suggested that a staggered schedule might work better if for older climbers, something like easy week (22%), hard week (35%), deload week (15%), medium week (28%). I might try this myself.
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There’s only one page in 9 out of 10 climbers where Dave Max talks about how personal circumstances affect performance.
Edit: Here it is (https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,14965.msg467493.html#msg467493) it’s nowhere near as inflammatory as anyone seems to remember it.
Don't let the truth get in the way of a good UKB flaming!
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I've seen it suggested that a staggered schedule might work better if for older climbers, something like easy week (22%), hard week (35%), deload week (15%), medium week (28%). I might try this myself.
This is great Nutty thank you. Some basic maths on this correct me if i'm wrong in my calculations. Based on the last protocol for older people this equates to the following.
Monthly training time currently estimated is 30hrs.
Week 1 Easy 22% - 6.6 hours weekly volume
3 sessions @ 2.2hrs each
Week 2 Hard 35% - 10.5 hours weekly volume
4 sessions @ 2.6 hrs each
Week 3 De-load 16% - 4.5 hours weekly volume
2 sessions @ 2 hrs each
Week 4 Medium 28% - 8.4 hours weekly volume
3 sessions @ 2.8 hours
I guess within these week blocks i'm wondering how do you structure your sessions for strength, power endurance etc within a given week based on someone wanting to improve at bouldering? Im assuming week two is the overload week for upping the difficulty and weight on strength based exercises.
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After a few days experimenting thank you to Dexter and Sean Kenny I can report thanks to their recommendations on deep sleep no rest breathing techniques and stopping drinking water 2 hours before bed have made improvements in sleep quality and night waking.
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Brilliant, glad it works for you. I have no idea why a body scan type meditation works or how the heck someone discovered it, but they are really good.
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Belated thought -- have you tried ashwagandha? Good for sleep and reducing cortisol, some evidence of potential benefits for athletes:
https://examine.com/supplements/ashwagandha/