UKBouldering.com
places to visit => indoor walls => competitions => Topic started by: jwi on January 05, 2022, 06:43:56 pm
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In a recent video with Magnus Midtbø, who seems to be able to get the people he talks to open up, Adam Ondra says that he and Jacob Schubert are still competitive in lead comps because the level has not increased in the last ten years. Ondra puts this down to more competitors trying to compete in bouldering as well, and you cannot really improve in endurance if you are training bouldering as well.
I found this interesting. It is 10:32 into this.
https://youtu.be/lbJta3GRYqI?t=632
It is certainly true that the onsight grades on rock has not really increased the last ten years. Midtbø, Usobiaga and Puigblanqué from the early 10s would still be the best in the world on onsight on rock together with Ondra and Megos.
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(https://d3byf4kaqtov0k.cloudfront.net/p/news/ljunjari.png)
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From 8a.nu (https://www.8a.nu/news/9a+-and-harder-analysis-tk01t)
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Yup that's a conclusive rebuttal to the topic!!
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That's for redpoints obviously, so quite a different game to competition onsighting, but still. I'd be genuinely amazed if the onsight graph didn't look quite similar though.
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That's for redpoints obviously, so quite a different game to competition onsighting, but still.
But still what?
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men's lead climbing competition
(And there are still not more people having onsighted 8c+ on rock now than in 2013...)
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That's for redpoints obviously, so quite a different game to competition onsighting, but still.
But still what?
Still it seems odd to suggest that "the level" hasn't gone up when it demonstrably has in the realm of hard redpoints. And it would be correspondingly strange if the general ability of people to perform hard onsights hasn't also increased, even if they haven't actually done so on rock.
Suppose it also depends how you define "the level".
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Ondra and Schubert used to dominate. Now they no longer dominate. I suspect that the level of the "pack" has improved considerably in order to be competitive. An interesting observation by Ondra but I feel he has drawn an incorrect conclusion. Reminds me of GB cycling's dominance in 2008 2012. The world has caught up through necessity but GB athletes are still competitive.
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Be interesting to see how this season plays out, assuming we get a full non covid fucked calendar. It feels like a lot has changed since 2019 in terms of the field, and no Olympic excuses this year!
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I think he was saying the “level of route climbing” , meaning endurance/stamina/aerobic capacity has not gone up.
The routes have got less “routy” and more bouldery.
The allowed time has gone down from (12? to) 8 to 6, so less endure based.
Bouldery moves have been added to increase the action, and I suspect Ondra, Schubert and especially Patxi and Ramon from 10 years ago, would not preform well on the routes of today.
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Onsighting just doesn't seem to be cool any more (but is still really the coolest)
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(https://d3byf4kaqtov0k.cloudfront.net/p/news/ljunjari.png)
:-\
From 8a.nu (https://www.8a.nu/news/9a+-and-harder-analysis-tk01t)
This graph must be slightly complicated by the fact that it charts the entire lifespan of the grades plotted. It's much easier to tick a grade when there's lots of routes in different styles to choose from. At the start of the graph there are no 9a+ routes to go at, at the end there are... however many there are to go at now (loads?). Lots of the difference between the left of the x-axis and the right is explained by rising standards, but at least some of it is explained by there being a greater abundance of routes to go at.
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Bouldery moves have been added to increase the action, and I suspect Ondra, Schubert and especially Patxi and Ramon from 10 years ago, would not preform well on the routes of today.
In terms of dominant lead climbers of last decade it's fairly clear, mens world championship lead winners 2012-2021 (held every 2 years except for move around Olympic year) - 2012 Schubert, 2014 Ondra, 2016 Ondra, 2018 Schubert, 2019 Ondra, 2021 Schubert. They also came first and second on the Olympic lead route.
In terms of general onsight standard on rock Ondra (and too a much lesser ascent Megos) is so far ahead of the rest of the world it probably hides the lack of progress in general onsight standards.
According to his 8a.nu Ondra has o/s 2 9a, 22 8c+ and 64 8c!!! Megos according to thecrag (not sure how complete but includes all recent hard stuff in Siurana) has 2*9a, 1*8c+ and 2*8c, Schubert(thecrag again) has 5*8c.
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Also, during the time my max redpoint grade increased from 8a+ to 8b+ my max onsight grade went from "8a" to "8a" and my base endurance level went from ~7a to ~7a.
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Bouldery moves have been added to increase the action, and I suspect Ondra, Schubert and especially Patxi and Ramon from 10 years ago, would not preform well on the routes of today.
In terms of dominant lead climbers of last decade it's fairly clear, mens world championship lead winners 2012-2021 (held every 2 years except for move around Olympic year) - 2012 Schubert, 2014 Ondra, 2016 Ondra, 2018 Schubert, 2019 Ondra, 2021 Schubert. They also came first and second on the Olympic lead route.
In terms of general onsight standard on rock Ondra (and too a much lesser ascent Megos) is so far ahead of the rest of the world it probably hides the lack of progress in general onsight standards.
According to his 8a.nu Ondra has o/s 2 9a, 22 8c+ and 64 8c!!! Megos according to thecrag (not sure how complete but includes all recent hard stuff in Siurana) has 2*9a, 1*8c+ and 2*8c, Schubert(thecrag again) has 5*8c.
So 88 onsights of 8c and harder! That is just outrageous.
I'm sure I read a while ago that he had done over 100 grade 9 routes, and second place on that list was sharma with 30 odd.
I know it was bandied around a while ago that the likes of Ghisolfi, Schubert and megos were challenging ondras supremacy, but these numbers surely put him in an absolute class of his own (with regard to rock climbing that is)
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(https://d3byf4kaqtov0k.cloudfront.net/p/news/ljunjari.png)
:-\
From 8a.nu (https://www.8a.nu/news/9a+-and-harder-analysis-tk01t)
This graph must be slightly complicated by the fact that it charts the entire lifespan of the grades plotted. It's much easier to tick a grade when there's lots of routes in different styles to choose from. At the start of the graph there are no 9a+ routes to go at, at the end there are... however many there are to go at now (loads?). Lots of the difference between the left of the x-axis and the right is explained by rising standards, but at least some of it is explained by there being a greater abundance of routes to go at.
Maybe if they were some sort of manufactured resource. In some sense they are of course, but really they're made of rock, and have therefore always been there...
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Whilst that may be strictly true (excluding the creative element of cleaning and stabilising limestone routes, which often have loose areas in there raw state), it's not meaningfully useful from the perspective of someone wanting to try a 9c to know that thousands of them exist somewhere out there in their as yet unrealised state.
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Also, during the time my max redpoint grade increased from 8a+ to 8b+ my max onsight grade went from "8a" to "8a" and my base endurance level went from ~7a to ~7a.
Wouldn't that partially be due to the fact that it takes longer to reach your limit in terms of redpointing vs onsighting, i.e. you were already capable of climbing 8b+ and it was just a matter of climbing smarter? I find a lot more tactics go into working a route or boulder problem at your limit vs trying to do something flash or onsight, where physical strength is a much bigger deciding factor.
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(https://d3byf4kaqtov0k.cloudfront.net/p/news/ljunjari.png)
:-\
From 8a.nu (https://www.8a.nu/news/9a+-and-harder-analysis-tk01t)
This graph must be slightly complicated by the fact that it charts the entire lifespan of the grades plotted. It's much easier to tick a grade when there's lots of routes in different styles to choose from. At the start of the graph there are no 9a+ routes to go at, at the end there are... however many there are to go at now (loads?). Lots of the difference between the left of the x-axis and the right is explained by rising standards, but at least some of it is explained by there being a greater abundance of routes to go at.
Could you not argue that its the rise in standards that causes the increase in numbers of routes? Chicken or egg?
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I find a lot more tactics go into working a route or boulder problem at your limit vs trying to do something flash or onsight, where physical strength is a much bigger deciding factor.
I don't think I agree with this, partly I think it's often just a case that tactics on RP are used more widely than on o/s. E.g. how often have you spent significant periods of time staring up at a route, preferably with binoculars, before your onsight try?
Obviously an RP allows you to find more tricks and not just pull your way through, but o/s also comes with challenges that make it - IMO - just as much about execution as an RP, e.g. one sloppy foot placement on RP means you come down and have another go whereas on the o/s it means failure. Another eg: pacing on RP is something you can play with on different goes, but on o/s you have to get it right first try... Perhaps it's hard to compare though, the actual RP go is far more "purely physical" than an o/s go IMO, but then that doesn't account for the time spent hanging around finding tricks. Anyway, it's certainly not obvious to me that o/s is more about basic strength than RP, and I don't usually see the strong-but-technically-and-tactically-inept flocking to the onsight game (probably the opposite if anything)..
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I suspect Ondra, Schubert ... would not preform well on the routes of today.
Ondra's World and European championship golds and four world cup victories in 2019-2021, and Schubert's World Championship, world cup win in the same period, suggest to me that they're still just about hanging in there. For the time being at least.
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Schubert coming first and Ondra coming second in the lead portion of the Olympic finals similarly suggests they aren't getting overcome yet
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I think the post was saying that the Ondra and Schubert of yesteryear would have struggled, but they've adapted to it. Or at least that's how I read it.
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Not to mention Schubert absolutely demolishing all those bouldery routes in Siurana, and Ondra establishing two new routes with 8C+ and 8C boulder starts....
Whilst that may be strictly true (excluding the creative element of cleaning and stabilising limestone routes, which often have loose areas in there raw state), it's not meaningfully useful from the perspective of someone wanting to try a 9c to know that thousands of them exist somewhere out there in their as yet unrealised state.
Hmm, maybe. Ged's chicken or egg analogy has a ring of truth to it for me. Arguably the routes exist before the climbers capable of doing them, once the numbers of capable climbers increase so, naturally, the number of established (climbed, named and graded) also goes up.
It does seem like onsighting is getting left behind but perhaps that's natural as absolute difficulty increases? I know Jerry back in the day, when he was the best climber in the world and forcing standards, basically tried to onsight every route he climbed on, but realistically the routes he was on weren't actually hard at all by modern standards.
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I find a lot more tactics go into working a route or boulder problem at your limit vs trying to do something flash or onsight, where physical strength is a much bigger deciding factor.
I don't think I agree with this, partly I think it's often just a case that tactics on RP are used more widely than on o/s. E.g. how often have you spent significant periods of time staring up at a route, preferably with binoculars, before your onsight try?
Obviously an RP allows you to find more tricks and not just pull your way through, but o/s also comes with challenges that make it - IMO - just as much about execution as an RP, e.g. one sloppy foot placement on RP means you come down and have another go whereas on the o/s it means failure. Another eg: pacing on RP is something you can play with on different goes, but on o/s you have to get it right first try... Perhaps it's hard to compare though, the actual RP go is far more "purely physical" than an o/s go IMO, but then that doesn't account for the time spent hanging around finding tricks. Anyway, it's certainly not obvious to me that o/s is more about basic strength than RP, and I don't usually see the strong-but-technically-and-tactically-inept flocking to the onsight game (probably the opposite if anything)..
Couldn't agree more. I think tactics is a far bigger factor in being a good onsight climber vs a good redpoint climber. As Alex said, you can just keep trying and trying with different approaches, or just pure persistence with a redpoint. With an os, you're tactics have to be spot on for the one try. As well as needing to have excellent rock skills to find and milk rests on the way, rather than spending ages being able to find them whilst dogging.
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I think the post was saying that the Ondra and Schubert of yesteryear would have struggled, but they've adapted to it. Or at least that's how I read it.
Exactly, they’re still winning because they adapted
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Also, during the time my max redpoint grade increased from 8a+ to 8b+ my max onsight grade went from "8a" to "8a" and my base endurance level went from ~7a to ~7a.
Wouldn't that partially be due to the fact that it takes longer to reach your limit in terms of redpointing vs onsighting, i.e. you were already capable of climbing 8b+ and it was just a matter of climbing smarter?
I was far from capable of climbing 8b+ when I onsighted my first "8a". I lacked a bit of bouldering capabilities even for the most endurancy of endurance 8b+s (my max boulder grade was likely 7B/+ or so), and I lacked a lot of the requisite strength endurance. The only thing I had sufficient of was endurance.
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I find a lot more tactics go into working a route or boulder problem at your limit vs trying to do something flash or onsight, where physical strength is a much bigger deciding factor.
I don't think I agree with this, partly I think it's often just a case that tactics on RP are used more widely than on o/s. E.g. how often have you spent significant periods of time staring up at a route, preferably with binoculars, before your onsight try?
Obviously an RP allows you to find more tricks and not just pull your way through, but o/s also comes with challenges that make it - IMO - just as much about execution as an RP, e.g. one sloppy foot placement on RP means you come down and have another go whereas on the o/s it means failure. Another eg: pacing on RP is something you can play with on different goes, but on o/s you have to get it right first try... Perhaps it's hard to compare though, the actual RP go is far more "purely physical" than an o/s go IMO, but then that doesn't account for the time spent hanging around finding tricks. Anyway, it's certainly not obvious to me that o/s is more about basic strength than RP, and I don't usually see the strong-but-technically-and-tactically-inept flocking to the onsight game (probably the opposite if anything)..
Now that you mention it the majority of good onsighters I can think of are an even balance between technical skills and physical abilities. There is definitely a lot of precision required when onsighting, and it's often difficult to get things like pacing right, pulling hard enough but not so hard you get pumped etc.
Although strength is still a factor in hard onsights I was definitely overexaggerating its role with my previous post.
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I was talking to a former coach yesterday, and asked about if he thought that the level in men's lead climbing competition has stagnated and he agreed.
According to him the difficulty in the mens semis has been 8c or c+ and in the finals 8c - 9a for at least the last ten years. He also thought the reason the style is a bit low-percentage weirdness is that the setters can barely redpoint 9a, so what do they know about onsighting 9a really?
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I was talking to a former coach yesterday, and asked about if he thought that the level in men's lead climbing competition has stagnated and he agreed.
According to him the difficulty in the mens semis has been 8c or c+ and in the finals 8c - 9a for at least the last ten years. He also thought the reason the style is a bit low-percentage weirdness is that the setters can barely redpoint 9a, so what do they know about onsighting 9a really?
Maybe WCs should be set with 3 hard routes, one set each by the top 3 climbers from the last round... Max points in all 3 gets the win.