UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: Andy F on August 10, 2011, 04:48:51 pm
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I recently received a ticket for parking in a disabled bay. The sign on the bay was badly worn so the base of the wheel was missing and the yellow paint badly faded. This made it look like a parent and child bay, which is what I was looking for as I had the kids with me. There was no sign at the end of the bay indicating it was disabled. The bay to the right was a parent and child bay, the bay to the left a disabled bay. Other disabled bays in the same car park have bright blue and yellow hatching and a sign at the end of the bay. I have taken photos to show how degraded the sign was and gone through the parking company's appeal process (with no success, no surprise there).
Anyone know if I have a good case to fight :please:
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I recently received a ticket for parking in a disabled bay. The sign on the bay was badly worn so the base of the wheel was missing and the yellow paint badly faded. This made it look like a parent and child bay, which is what I was looking for as I had the kids with me. There was no sign at the end of the bay indicating it was disabled. The bay to the right was a parent and child bay, the bay to the left a disabled bay. Other disabled bays in the same car park have bright blue and yellow hatching and a sign at the end of the bay. I have taken photos to show how degraded the sign was and gone through the parking company's appeal process (with no success, no surprise there).
Anyone know if I have a good case to fight :please:
Whats the company Andy? or is it the council. If its a company they cant do anything.. its all bluster..
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Pepipoo forums have all the knowledge you'll need.
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If it is a private car park then you can ignore the ticket - have a look at http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,17107.75.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,17107.75.html) for all of the links etc to how to deal/ignore these charges.
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I recently received a ticket for parking in a disabled bay. The sign on the bay was badly worn so the base of the wheel was missing and the yellow paint badly faded. This made it look like a parent and child bay, which is what I was looking for as I had the kids with me. There was no sign at the end of the bay indicating it was disabled. The bay to the right was a parent and child bay, the bay to the left a disabled bay. Other disabled bays in the same car park have bright blue and yellow hatching and a sign at the end of the bay. I have taken photos to show how degraded the sign was and gone through the parking company's appeal process (with no success, no surprise there).
Anyone know if I have a good case to fight :please:
Whats the company Andy? or is it the council. If its a company they cant do anything.. its all bluster..
The company is UKPC, not the council. I'm not paying, as they haven't properly indicated the bay.
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If it is a private car park then you can ignore the ticket - have a look at http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,17107.75.html (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,17107.75.html) for all of the links etc to how to deal/ignore these charges.
Thanks :2thumbsup:
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Just DONT respond to anything they send (I fear you already have)... ignore all their letters AND phone calls.
They are f*ckers and once they know they've got a contact they dont let go...
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I have already responded, but will have no further communication regarding this matter. They can shove it.
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If the markings aren't the same as the ones illustrated in the highway code (even if they've just eroded away) then they are not legally recognized signs. And therefore have no legal meaning. You parked in an unmarked bay, legally speaking.
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Disgusting behaviour, parking in disabled bays :)
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as said above any use of signage requires too be clear and easily visable, if this is worn down then they dont have a leg too stand on
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they dont have a leg too stand on
Given the context, is this deliberate? :)
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they dont have a leg too stand on
Given the context, is this deliberate? :)
That's wheely not very funny..
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Hop it!
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That reminds me that women are like parking bays, all the good ones are taken so occasionally, when no one's looking, you have to stick it in a disabled one.
Probably stolen from the jokes page
As an aside I got clamped the other day, the bastard must have been waiting 'cos I can't have been more than 4-5mins posting a letter. £90 for release. I managed to haggle the thieving shit down to £60. It's a lot harder to ignore a clamp. I thought they were meant to be banning the practice?
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I got clamped last year to the tune of £100. Fuck that, robbing bastards, the clamper (who didn't understand the word "contract") must have been sitting in his van waiting for something interesting to happen to him. You're legally allowed to remove the clamp without damaging it though, and they're changing the law soon (I thought it had already gone through to be honest!)
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I don't think the 'self-help' argument is as plain and simple as you make out, for instance if its easiest to just pay and then claim the money back through the courts than going and renting an angle grinder (as if clamps were removable without damage they wouldn't really work) and using it to liberate your wagon of choice, then that is the path you are obliged to take.
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If you jack the car up, some certain types of clamp can be removed without damage to either the car or clamp.
How to remove clamp legally...Wheel clamping... ( Part 2 ) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QkM-dWAXOs&feature=related#ws)
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I got done by Excel parking services for parking in a disabled bay. Yes, hands up, I did park there. I was having a very bad day, baby was asleep and toddler refusing to come in - I only wanted to buy one thing, in and out, but there were no parent and child parking spaces. There were 5 empty disabled bays right outside the shop where I could keep an eye on the kids. Poor excuses all, but I did it, was away from the car for approx 3 minutes during which time the ladyman with a shit job had rushed over to give me a ticket.
I drove off before s/he even put the ticket on the car and have ignored all letters so far.
I am now getting a bit gripped though - it has been passed to a debt collection agency who say they will pass it to their solicitor for 'potential legal action'. There are so many opinions that they can't/ won't do anything, but they are fully aware of this because so many people are ignoring them. What's to stop them actually going through with it prove the point that they will. What if it's me they choose to go for?!
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Mrs T stopped recieving the solicitors letters about 6 weeks ago. From Graham White? BTW, they're not a solicitors if you research them.. Nothing since. Its like double glazing sales, they'll keep on having a punt until someone bites... If we get a summons I'll post up... To assuage MrsT's fears I've offered to underwrite any court costs if they ever happen (which I'm sure they wont).
Though according to the test cases, they cannot claim a fine - as you've not broken any laws - all they can do is claim the damages to the parking company (ie the fee you didnt pay) which for MrsT is 50p (seriously). And reasonable costs - which are NOT the £200 they claim. It would probably be £30-40 for the small claims court costs. In any case I doubt you had to pay for the disabled parking - so god knows what they can charge you for! nothing I suspect!! These people can not issue fines... that is borderline illegal.. all they can do in court is claim back the cost of the parking ticket you may not have paid.
Of course the other tack to take is if.. that is IF they ever take you to court just say that you were not driving. As its a private civil case (unlike speeding or parking on a double yellow) you are NOT obliged to say who was driving the vehicle. So you could quite reasonably argue that you didnt know, but you are sure that is wasnt you - as you were doing XYZ instead...
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Tomtom's on the money here, I researched the one I got a ticket off in the Arndale centre in Headingley and their registered address was an abandoned warehouse. Most people don't know they can't enforce anything and duly cough up the demanded sum, which is unfortunate for them!
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Cheers! :great:
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The best way to avoid paying a ticket is to not get one in the first place ;)
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That's really helpful advice.
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Ah, the smugness of youth ;)
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I got done by Excel parking services for parking in a disabled bay.
My two penny worth: sounds like you were on private land (?) and therefore have not committed an offence under the highway code. So not really sure what damages they want from you. Did you fail to pay, because I cannot see how they are entitled to any damages otherwise ?
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Sorry to resurrect this thread again.
I have now received a 'Notice of Intended Litigation'. It looks very serious, but is it all still bullshit? It is from Graham White Solicitors as someone mentioned earlier.
From all the responses, though, I can't see that I have actually committed an offence. How exactly can they take me to court if this is true?
Just feeling a bit stressed at the moment anyway, this really isn't helping.....
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From Graham White? BTW, they're not a solicitors if you research them.. Nothing since.
don't worry
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Thanks, Jim.
Have also just googled Graham White, found another thread on this where someone has kindly uploaded all the letters in order from all the various parking companies! Hilarious, and I now know when this will end - got 3 more 'final warning' letters to go ::)
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MrsTT stopped getting letters from Graham white about 2 months ago now... and the heavies havnt been around ;)
Its all a scam.. Theres even people who go in and out of excel parks to get tickets, to bleed ££ from excel..
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Are hospitals any different from other private companies dishing out fines? As there was no-where to park at all I had to park on the verge when paying the new arrival and co a visit and came back to find a fine on the windscreen. Ignore or pay?
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who issued the ticket? if it is run by the council you will need to pay if its by a private company probably not.
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Said it was issued by grampian hospital trust?
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BUMP.
Say a driver pulled into a bay in a pay-and-display out-of-town shopping centre carpark (where having to pay to use the fucking shops is an utter disgrace and thus the driver has no qualms whatsoever about not paying to, errr, be a paying customer), did not attempt to buy a ticket, but sat with the engine running, partly because it was bloody cold and partly because he was just waiting for a "quick" purchase by his partner - that turned out the be 41 minutes hence getting a bullshit PCN from Care Parking (they care, honestly they care, about their profits, the cunts). Does he have a case that he was not actually parked but merely loading/unloading?? Or indeed any other case??
And yes, go to pepipoo forums etc etc, the driver has had a good look but it's all a bit incomprehensible and almost all the threads are by people in hire cars or parking in Metrolink parking....
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We’ve had three that we’ve been ignoring for ages. One under very similar circumstances to yours.
Despite multiple threats of “recommendations” of court action, we’ve had none yet, and they’ve been passed between different debt collection firms.
My understanding is that they can theoretically recover the money through the courts, but only a tiny number actually do, so we’re playing the probabilities.
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Short version: PCN from Private Company = you should never pay this 'threat' of a fine. From a council is a different matter.
This forum is amazingly useful:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822
I used the info they provide there to help my mum dispute / not succumb to the threats when she had been a legitimate paying customer, to a similar sounding shopping centre. Subsequently she has been increasingly keen on online shopping... funny that eh?
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Whatever else, sitting with the engine running for 40 minutes is a dick thing to do
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Whateve else, off-topic and pointless wanky replies is also a dick thing to do. Sorry that the person did sit there get fucking cold sitting there with their tweaked back stiffening up, but if you don't have anything useful to say, go visit another thread.
Crzylgs and Andy, thanks. Was aiming for an idea before diving in to pepipoo or MSE.
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I'd say ignore the fine and apologise to Duma :-*
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careful following accurate advice from a while ago, the law has changed and they can now enforce fines... providing they are registered and it's clearly marked!
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but if you don't have anything useful to say, go visit another thread.
Very well.
Is it any wonder that the planet is completely fucked when otherwise mentally competent people will sit in their parked cars, waiting for something, while the engine idles away pumping out toxic fumes into the atmosphere? FFS!
I fucking hate this. Don't accept that they're mentally competent though...
Sorry, I meant that they have mental capacity in the most basic sense. They can wash, dress, eat, etc. Presumably nothing more demanding.
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Mods feel free to close and logpile this.
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careful following accurate advice from a while ago, the law has changed and they can now enforce fines... providing they are registered and it's clearly marked!
Strictly, they're not fines because the parking companies don't have the power to levy fines. They are contractual debts formed by "agreement" when you park without payment of the fee. Whether you have in fact entered into the contract is the most common issue and cases seem to revolve around things like whether there was clear signage setting out the terms. Some companies are very pro-active in terms of enforcing the payments in the small claims courts and they do win them, apparently. The, "I wasn't parking I was loading for 45 mins," argument is unlikely to be the strongest point.
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I'm curious as to what difference you think the idling car makes? These things record your reg plate when you enter, and when you leave, what you do in between matters little, you could be trying to balance the car on two wheels and do a loop of the car park for all they care. It would be hard to prove someone was in the car and it was idling.
(as an aside I agree with Duma though :) )
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They've got you bang to rights, Fiend. The whole idling thing is not a defence. As Ru says, you'd need to demonstrate that your obligations weren't clear and it sounds like you were quite aware of them.
It's a question of risk now. Do you want to leave it and possibly face incessant threats of legal action that may never come, or pay up and move on?
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Thanks Ru. Reading more threads on MSE etc, I am coming to that conclusion.
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Whateve else, off-topic and pointless wanky replies is also a dick thing to do. Sorry that the person did sit there get fucking cold sitting there with their tweaked back stiffening up, but if you don't have anything useful to say, go visit another thread.
Sitting in an idling car for 40+ minutes is a dick thing to do. Your car is not a coat. Double fine for being a twat imho.
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I always used to ignore such PCNs. More recently I've found that they often get followed up with court action and it's very easy to end up with CCJs against you. You end up with big fines and a lot of fucking about to get the CCJs wiped. The easy mistake to make is that because these parking firms are utter wankers and the entire thing is morally bankrupt, you assume the courts will decide in your favour. The law knows no morals, it's just the law. You'd think that taking your daughter into hospital with broken fingers and the car park being full might be considered a mitigating circumstance. But apparently not.
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Whateve else, off-topic and pointless wanky replies is also a dick thing to do. Sorry that the person did sit there get fucking cold sitting there with their tweaked back stiffening up, but if you don't have anything useful to say, go visit another thread.
Sitting in an idling car for 40+ minutes is a dick thing to do. Your car is not a coat. Double fine for being a twat imho.
Careful now. You're asking for a punter point, a Facebook defriending, and a Messenger message saying "why don't you fuck off you pointless cunt."
::)
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PM me if u want 2 chat will bbz x x
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To be fair to
Trump Fiend, haranguing him for idling his vehicle on a website that celebrates the pursuit of climbing does seem a little morally short-sighted. Some of the people we celebrate spend their lives flying around the globe in pursuit of pointless pleasure.
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Slightly longer version:
I went down the recommended route from MSE of putting in a complaint/appeal on the last day or so possible, using the nicely worded (key part of this is replying as 'the registered keeper' and not disclosing who was driving the car, then they have to make a request to DVLA within a given time frame or something similar) template they provide. I'm pretty sure using this template alone is enough for the peeps involved to be like 'eughh another one from MSE no point trying our usual shenanigans'. FWIW the law is stacked HUGELY in your favour, the onus is on them to be able to prove everything, that signage was present and correct, even things like being able to audit their timekeeping system to prove that they were running accurately on the day.
I also sent an email to my MP enlightening him about the predatory practices of these private parking firms. A similar email to the shops my mother had visited - pointing out to them in the age of online shopping, allowing a company to act on their behalf in such a manor is a sure way to continue the demise of the high street retail industry. A final email went to some chap (possibly director) of the organisation of predatory parking company wankers plc or whatever it was.
Yes I had far too much time on my hands. Yes a part of me did find their grovelling replies and ultimate backing down and dropping of all proceedings rather amusing.
Good luck :)
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I also sent an email to my MP enlightening him about the predatory practices of these private parking firms.
Good luck :)
I'm a bit surprised that in Clitheroe which is already struggling with traffic (it's ripe for pedestrianisation IMO) that a new Cinema was given planning permission but just before opening they installed a Parking Eye system in their car park (which also caters for a bar, restaurant and very expensive food shop and isn't overly large) with a maximum stay that, with trailers etc. means you can't really use it.
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Thanks for the further information crzylgs and Nails, I will take this into account.
Sorry Will for a very slight and mild overreaction, which is probably even less helpful and less relevant than everyone jumping on the "insult the person for idling in a car" bandwagon.
For what little it's worth I suspect the amount of carbon produced is relatively little compared to the vast other amounts from general first world lifestyles, and compared to the amount I save all the time by being a typical Audi driver and sitting meekly at 70mph on cruise control to save fuel even when I want to get to the crag quicker.
IF that's wrong then I very much suggest the information is better inserted into a general "Carbon footprint awareness and saving thread" rather than yet another "person idling is a dick hur hur polish halo" post on here.
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Sorry Will for a very slight and mild overreaction, which is probably even less helpful and less relevant than everyone jumping on the "insult the person for idling in a car" bandwagon.
I imagine that if you had showed a little humility there would have been far fewer people joining in to support Duma's point.
For what little it's worth I suspect the amount of carbon produced is relatively little compared to the vast other amounts from general first world lifestyles...
However much it was, it was avoidable with only a small impact on your lifestyle.
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::) It's a laughably small amount that doesn't justify anybody being given shit for by carbon virtue-signallers.
[virtue signal]Then again I'm an avid collector of other people's plastic to put in my household recycling.[/virtue signal] So who am I to argue about actions that are vanishingly tiny and inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
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::) It's a laughably small amount that doesn't justify anybody being given shit for by carbon virtue-signallers.
[virtue signal]Then again I'm an avid collector of other people's plastic to put in my household recycling.[/virtue signal] So who am I to argue about actions that are vanishingly tiny and inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
[virtue signal]The amount of money I give to amnesty international is - in the scheme of the gross annual donations received by them - also vanishingly tiny [/virtue signal]. By your logical, I should cancel my direct debt.
Keep up the plastic collection! :2thumbsup:
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Every individual action has a vanishingly small impact. Thing is, they're cumulative, and before you know it, 181 people a year in Manchester die of air quality issues, largely contributed to by stationary vehicles accumulating emissions around key areas of populace such as schools and shops.
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The obvious reply to you both is, you don't give people shit on forums for choosing not to make a vanishingly tiny Amnesty donation. Why would you?
By my logic you should try to do good things and not give other people shit for stuff you are probably no more or less good at.
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Have you used the internet before, you know that's not how it works! :)
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Oh yeah, apologies I forgot there for a minute. You bellend Fiend. :chair:
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Nothing like having a baby/small child that you push around in a pram to make you appreciate the fucking crazy levels of air pollution.
Thats why you should switch your car off when you are stationary.
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I agree TT, and with the issue of particulate matter around schools especially I think parking should be banned from roads outside schools by making them clearways during school hours. All those parents dropping off their kids at school are helping to a. pollute their lungs and b. contribute to their physical inactivity. Disruptive as fuck no doubt.
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c. Gridlock the local roads and piss off people living round the school.
Be nice if the council would put in some proper crossings to make walking / cycling safer though (localised rant)
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Bumping this - to actually be useful (TL, DR: Private parking company attempted PCN via NTK served outside the time limit, sent appeal and had to jump through hoops, but got it cancelled)
I got a completely spurious cash-grabbing Penalty Charge Notice from :shit: Smart :shit: Parking :shit: served via a Notice To Keeper, in the following situation: Silk Road Retail Park, Macclesfield, overstayed the 2 hour free parking limit by 10 minutes, mostly because the driver was a customer of a large fast food establishment as they were meeting a friend there to chat and give some moral support for her dad who had just been hospitalised with heart issues (the driver didn't see the parking limit signs as they were relatively small and the entrance to the parking is at a very busy junction where any driver's focus is on all sorts of traffic).
I looked into it further, this MSE page was invaluable:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/4816822/newbies-private-parking-ticket-old-or-new-read-these-faqs-first-thankyou
And referencing this government POFA page:
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4
The NTK had been served 18 days after the alleged offence, outside of the necessary 14 day period, so was invalid and I was under no obligation to provide the driver's details. I made an appeal on this basis, quoting the revelant POFA sections, but also mentioning the lack of timestamp on the ANPR image, the lack of any grace period, the timescale indicating the driver was a customer of the retail park and not abusing it for all day parking, etc and was also prepared to complain to the fast food establishment about the predatory practises of the parking company they employed.
I got an acknowledgement of the appeal immediately, however I got no reply within the British Parking Association's Code Of Conduct guidelines of 35 days. After about 60 days I received a threatening letter from Debt Recovery Plus.
I then sent a complaint to Smart Parking about the lack of response and their breach of the BPA Code Of Conduct, which needed to be done twice as they first time they rejected the complaint thinking it was just the appeal, a complaint to BPA about Smart Parking, and a complaint to DRP. To be extra sure I printed out a copy of my complaint AND appeal and posted it to Smart Parking.
Within a few days I got an email, and later a letter from Smart Parking confirming the PCN had been cancelled. In short they're complete fucking cunts and can go fuck themselves so far up their collective company arse that their leprotic choad comes out of their mouth, BUT the important thing was to not accept their thieving horseshit and put the effort in to following that MSE thread and any relevant links from it. HTH.
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Chapeau! :2thumbsup:
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Nat just got one yesterday at Connonley Station which has been free until early December it seems.