UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => bouldering => Topic started by: r-man on April 26, 2005, 01:39:10 am
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Ok, so I was looking at planetfear's bouldering records (http://planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=326) and I wondered what the uk list of first problems at each grade would be. Just going off that list, plus the obvious V15:
V9 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe
V11 - Slingshot - Frogatt - Jerry Moffatt
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins
What are the rest?
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walk on by is V10. it is certainly not V9
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also, moffatt top-roped slingshot.
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didn't jezzer do superman bout the same time as slingshizzle?
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slingshot route, E10 7b!
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walk on by is V10. it is certainly not V9
didn't jezzer do superman bout the same time as slingshizzle?
Ok then:
V8 ?
V9 ?
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe 1960s?
V11 - Slingshot - Frogatt - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V12 - Superman - Crag X - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
Just going off the lakesbloc history section, which says that Isla... and Kaizen were the hardest problems in the country at that time, though 10 years between V11 and V12 seems a very long time...
Still, I guess there's an even longer gap between V10 and V11.
..And yeah I know Jerry top-roped Slingshot, but like it says on planetfear, bouldering mats weren't invented, and I'm sure he would have used em if they were.
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il pirata, V15 trowbarrow, Johnny G
Keel Boulder traverse, V10 6c+ Keel boulder almscliffe
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Think Gawthorpe was '83 word-certainly not the 60s
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A bit off topic, but in the first ascents list of an old peak (routes) guide it says that rob gawthawp climbed walk on by to the break by 'combined tactics' e.g. cheating, before topping out. Can he still be given the first ascent if thats right? If it is true, when was the second ascent? Not sure how true this is tho.
dan
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il pirata, V15 trowbarrow, Johnny G
Keel Boulder traverse, V10 6c+ Keel boulder almscliffe
RTQ! Come on, how are you ever going to pass your A-levels if you don't Read The Question? :wink:
Think Gawthorpe was '83 word-certainly not the 60s
Cool in the gang:
V8 ?
V9 ?
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Slingshot - Frogatt - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V12 - Superman - Crag X - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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Think the Superman Sitter was done before Isla De Encanta, and if we stretch the rules a bit, Hubble is 8b and was climbed in 1990.
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how about Careless Torque in '87 - doesn't that get V12 in new money?
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Was Slingshot climbed before Careless Torque?
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I though Smith said it felt like V11... I could be wrong though.
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If we stretch it to include Hubble in 1982 Rob Gawthorpe did the direct start to central wall at Dib Scar, I think this is about V9.
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Desert Island Arete low start V7 was climbed in the 60s I think, maybe early 70s. Super Bald Pate arete, or whatever it is at Ilkley was climbed very early wasn't it? What about Syrett's Sauter/Pebble wall at Caley, wasn't that climbed early as it V8. I'll have to start bringing my guides into work...
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V5 ?
V6 ?
V7 ?
V8 ?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Slingshot - Frogatt - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V12 - Superman - Crag X - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Hubble - Raven tor - Ben Moon - 1992
V13 - Superman ss - Ben Moon - ?
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
What about Leviathan? Done in 1994. (http://www.cragx.com/articles/issue07/millennium/bouldering01.htm) Is that 8b or 8b+?
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Leviathan 8b+, done around '93 '94 I think.
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steve foster used combined tactics on walk on by not rob gawthorpe.pebble wall,bald pate super direct and d.i.a are all mid to late 70s.al manson,andy brown, jerry peel did them i think.theres also jerrys arete[bridies] and red baron from the 70s.
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I asked cos Malcolm Smith said it was 8b, (http://planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=77) but everyone else seems to say 8b+
There's two, there's Leviathan and Lothlorian which has a slightly different finish, but they're both font 8b's or f9a.
But 8b+ seems to be the consensus (though how many have repeated it?)
so...
V1 ?
V2 ?
V3 ?
V4 ?
V5 ?
V6 ?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Syrett's Sauter/Pebble wall - Caley - ? - ?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Slingshot - Frogatt - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V12 - Superman - Crag X - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Hubble - Raven Tor - Ben Moon - 1992
V13 - Superman ss - Ben Moon - ?
V14 - Leviathan - Kyloe in the Woods - Malcolm Smith - 1994
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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i can't believe slingshot is still on the list. HE TOPROPED IT. ron didn't toprope FA of careless torque.
what is hubble doing on a bouldering list?
you people, jesus. :roll:
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a bit off-topic - have many of Gaskins' hard problems been repeated (il pirata, walk away ss, anaethesia, etc)? Is there any consensus on their precise degree of hideousness?
In spite of never so much as seeing the problems, I have a knawing feeling that they are even harder than supposed and that Gaskins is possessed of terrible (possibly alien) powers that could destroy us all Akira-style (maybe when he runs out of stuff in the South Lakes he'll crimp his way to nuclear fusion?).
So if any wealthy, bouldering-obsessed, maniacs are reading... could they please kidnapp some international waddage (Graham, Loskot, Nicole etc) in a "The Beast Must Die" stylee, force them to partake in a grading session, and put my mind at rest.
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i can't believe slingshot is still on the list. HE TOPROPED IT. ron didn't toprope FA of careless torque.
what is hubble doing on a bouldering list?
Alright, alright, keep your pants on. :)
I left them on the list cos I thought that the hardest pieces of climbing are relevant to the bouldering scene, given that that is what bouldering is essentially about. When did Ron do careless torque?
PURE BOULDERING:
V1 ?
V2 ?
V3 ?
V4 ?
V5 ?
V6 ?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Syrett's Sauter/Pebble wall - Caley - ? - ?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - ?
V12 - Superman - Crag X - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Superman ss - Ben Moon - ?
V14 - Leviathan - Kyloe in the Woods - Malcolm Smith - 1994
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
Of note:
V11 - Slingshot - Frogatt - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Hubble - Raven Tor - Ben Moon - 1992
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get your 89 stanage guide out yoof.
"of note". my arse.
<blows raspberry and makes gesture with thumb on nose while wiggling fingers>
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V9 - Jerry's Arete Bridestones as noted by webbo above.
Re: Gaskins - I think a lot of stuff is unrepeated, there are people knocking about this forum who know a lot more than me, but I was told by a local wad that the SS shelf to the right of Isla de enchanta hasn't been repeated (V8?)
Axions (maybe Aeons?) the blunt arete to the right of Walk-away hasn't been repeated, and some strong people have tried it, although I don't know how extensively. I'm sure there's much better examples of some harsh grades he's given that the local gurus know of.
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get your 89 stanage guide out yoof.
Good idea. :idea: :)
"of note". my arse.
Really? When was it first done. And by who? :lol:
steve foster used combined tactics on walk on by not rob gawthorpe.
Combined tactis? Please explain to the ignorant (me)...
pebble wall,bald pate super direct and d.i.a are all mid to late 70s.
Sorry, I'm ignorant of all of those. Where, when, how hard, who? :? :)
V1 ?
V2 ?
V3 ?
V4 ?
V5 ?
V6 ?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - ? - 70s?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Syrett's Sauter/Pebble wall - Caley - al manson,andy brown, jerry peel - mid to late 70s?
V9 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s?
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V12 - Superman - Crag X - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Superman ss - Ben Moon - ?
V14 - Leviathan - Kyloe in the Woods - Malcolm Smith - 1994
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
Of note:
V11 - Slingshot - Frogatt - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Hubble - Raven Tor - Ben Moon - 1992
Cofe's arse
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I was told by a local wad that the SS shelf to the right of Isla de enchanta hasn't been repeated (V8?
not wantin to slate gaskins stuff, but it really is in the most part shit n uninspiring. a couple of things i think look really good, read very good. however the majority is not n nearly every strong person i know is totally uninspired to go to the lakes with good reason imho. unfortunately this is fact. the only probable repeats will come from bob dylan with a shrunken body, or any of the welsh crew since they have to travel to get half decent rock. :wink:
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I was told by a local wad that the SS shelf to the right of Isla de enchanta hasn't been repeated (V8?)
Do you mean shallow goove? better make that 8a (or V11)
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Ok, so there's now a rough list from V7 upwards, albeit with a little confusion below V10. The gist seems to be that Yorkshire was the forcing ground untilthe 80s, when it (or all the best climbers) moved to the peak. I had a look at the Stanage guide and problems like NTBA and Crecent arete were apparently only climbed in the mid 70s, well behind Yorkshire standards. Why so? Were they climbed earlier and not recorded?
And what about bouldering in other places? Northumberland has a long history of bouldering, doesn't it?
What about easier stuff. I know this will be harder to pin down, and perhaps the starts to routes will be needed, but we should be able to get a rough idea.
I'll start with Brownstones, this one is probably not a first, but it's pretty early:
V2 - Parr's Crack - 1948-49
What about Pex, Frodsham and Helsby:
The standards at Helsby (http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/Bouldering_History1.2.html)were exceptionally high, compared to other climbing areas in the British Isles.
And Menlove Edwards guide to the Helyg boulder (1935)...
(http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/HelygBoulder.jpg)
according to Perrin, one or two of the moves are of technical grade 6a
..though it does sound like lots of these problems might have been eliminates.
And there's Oscar Eckenstein (ca. 1885) and his boulder below the Pen Y Pass youth hostel in North Wales:
A bit about Eckenstein (http://www.gripped.com/editor/) though I can't find anything more about him or the Eckenstein boulder.
Here's the early history of British bouldering as summarised by John Gill:
1. The British Path: Commencing about 1885 in Great Britain, with the first documented advocate, Oscar Eckenstein. The words 'bouldering' and 'problem' were coined and the idea of seeking greater difficulty on boulders began to emerge. The first eliminate problems appeared. By 1900 or so, some climbers were trying problems of greater difficulty than that found on lead climbs - by 1910, Siegfried Herford and a few others, in particular, pushed quite hard, initiating crag climbing as a sport unto itself. There was continued enthusiasm and activity by an assortment of climbers through the years, though not consistently well-documented. Crag climbing, particularly on gritstone formations, became quite popular during the 1920s and 1930s. Bouldering may have lost much of its identity in the process, being subsumed by a general focus on very short climbs, some done with top-ropes, some led, and others done ropeless. High-balls going all the way back to the 1890s remain a feature of the sport.
(http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/PKelley.JPG)
(Photo of Pat Kelley at a resting place on the Scoop in the late 1920s, from Climbing Days by D. Pilley, 1935)
(http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/Mantlepiece3.jpg)(http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/Mantlepiece4.jpg)
Mantlepiece at Low Man (Climbers Club Journal No. VIII, 1905)
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Oh, and I just noticed, Careless Torque was climbed before Slingshot, so the toprope thing is moot.
Also, if Leviathan was climbed in 1994, according to the planetfear list (http://planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=326) it was a world first, beating Klem Loskot's Nanuk by 3 years and Fred Nicole's Slashface by 4.
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That also depends if your actually gonna include traverses.
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There is a photo in the back of the Yorkshire Gritstone Guide of some bloke soloing a short crack up at Simon's Seat, dated turn of last century. Not sure what grade the crack gets, but could be firts V1. Will check at home, if I remember.
Although I'm meant to go out bouldering tonight AND pack for font, so I will probably forget.
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the joker, V7, font, 1950's?
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something at shipley glen(i think), a traverse, V3 6a was done about 1920. it says in the Yorkshire grit bouldering guide in the introductuion
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la joker is Font 7a, which is V6, non? Besides France isn't in the uk ;)
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la joker is Font 7a, which is V6, non?
D'oh!
Besides France isn't in the uk ;)
Really?
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la joker is Font 7a, which is V6, non
besides if you read the small print, holds have come off the joker. it sounds good to have font 7a way back but this is not true. the same with biceps mou. but we are on about britain, which also takes jerry's arete out of the equation cos the footholds where much better, back in the day
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The problem squeek is talking about is the sit start to the V1 (standing start up the ledges) right next to IDE on the shelter stone (i.e. in between IDE and Shallow Groove), Gaskins gave it V8 but its way harder IMO.
Most of the proper hard Gaskins probs have not been repeated and although some are shit to look at things like Walk Away SS are some of the best looking probs i've seen.
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just look't at wheelbarrow topo, gets V9/10 according to topo. is it any good? never looked at it.
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Yeah I think it was up graded from the first topo. I think it is a good problem, its a pretty straight line with a cool sloper on it. I guess some might think its not that good a problem next to IDE but worth the effort if you ask me... I might go and try it again soon.
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Ok then, here are a few more grades filled in. There are probably earlier things, but these are a good start.
That also depends if your actually gonna include traverses.
Good point. What do you reckon? Are there any traverses on the world list (http://planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=326)? Traverses do represent an improvement in standards, even if it's linking together already climbed problems and not actually doing any harder moves...
which also takes jerry's arete out of the equation cos the footholds where much better, back in the day
Right, Rob Gawthorpe is back in there then, but how much easier would Jerry's arete have been? Could still be a contender for first V8?
V1 - Simon's seat Crack - ? - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 ?
V5 ?
V6 ?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - ? - 70s?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Syrett's Sauter/Pebble wall - Caley - al manson,andy brown, jerry peel - mid to late 70s?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V12 - Superman - Crag X - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Superman ss - Ben Moon - ?
V14 - Leviathan - Kyloe in the Woods - Malcolm Smith - 1994
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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V8 - Syrett's Sauter/Pebble wall - Caley - al manson,andy brown, jerry peel - mid to late 70s?
Surely Syrett's Saunter was put up by John Syrett!?
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notice how a lot of it is in yorkshire?
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syretts saunter was climbed and named by al manson.all the problems with a name i.e. bobs bastard,websters winge were named after his climbing partners / friends of the time.however syretts roof was climbed by john syrett in the early 70s v6.the start to wall of horrors v4/v5 allan austin 1950s
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what about railway slab? got to be a contender for one of the easier graded ones??
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Velvet Silence E6 6c was originally claimed as a 6a boulder problem by Johny Woodward! Not sure what year
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the start to wall of horrors v4/v5 allan austin 1950s
According to a chat i had with Dennis Gray one time (choose yourself how much of a guarntee of facts that is, but... ) AA did not do the now common start to WoH, but instead came in from, I think, the left. However, DG was at Almscliffe one time with Joe Brown before AA did FA of Wall of Horrors. JB did the direct start, on sight, and got to the break. Just then, someone else at the crag fell off and was badly injured, and JB had to come down and give him a lift to hospital, as he was the only person there with transport.
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Velvet Silence E6 6c was originally claimed as a 6a boulder problem by Johny Woodward! Not sure what year
climbed before Jonny by Gabe Regan, on sight!
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Velvet Silence E6 6c was originally claimed as a 6a boulder problem by Johny Woodward! Not sure what year
climbed before Jonny by Gabe Regan, on sight!
That might be the ascent I was thinking of.
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oh n pebble wall had more pebbles on it
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Grimer, I think combined tactics were the common way of starting WoH, before JB did the direct.
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what about railway slab? got to be a contender for one of the easier graded ones??
(http://www.dangeroussite.com/images/peak_crags/railway%20slab.JPG)
Could be, but I can't find a date. It gets E1 5c in the rockfax database, though elsewhere it's E1 6a.
Bonjoy wrote:Velvet Silence E6 6c was originally claimed as a 6a boulder problem by Johny Woodward! Not sure what year
climbed before Jonny by Gabe Regan, on sight!
The rockfax database lists it as 1987, so doesn't quite make it as the other V7s are much earlier (on the dangerous site it's graded as ft7a+). Oddly though, planetfear and other sites have it as an onsight repeat (http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=325) in 1986 by Johnny Dawes.
oh n pebble wall had more pebbles on it
Right, I've moved it down a grade. Is that fair, or would it have been much easier than that?
But Syrett's roof and Wall of Horrors Direct are a good start for V4 and V5. Either the traverse at Shipley Glen is incredibly ahead of it's time, or there should be something else at V2.
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - early 1950s ?
V5 ?
V6 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - ? - 70s?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Pebble Wall - Caley - Al manson, Andy Brown, Jerry Peel - mid to late 70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Syrett's Sauter - Caley - Al manson, Andy Brown, Jerry Peel - mid to late 70s?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V12 - Superman - Crag X - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Superman ss - Crag X - Ben Moon - pre 1999?
V14 - Leviathan - Kyloe in the Woods - Malcolm Smith - 1994
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
Hmmm, it also seems logical that if Joe Brown was onsighting V4, he was probably capable of doing something much harder...
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notice how a lot of it is in yorkshire?
Yeah, that does seem a little strange. Like I mentioned earlier, bouldering must have been going on for just as long in places like Pex and Helsby, and as training for routes in Wales, The Lakes, Northumberland etc. The problem is just finding people who remember...
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AT the risk of being pedantic, syrett's roof is considiered to be V5 by many, not by me cos I haven't done it so don't know.
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Just wondering if this will jog anyone's memory - someone already said that Superman ss was done before Isla de Enchanta (1999), but was it done before Leviathan (1994)?
Or, put it this way, given that Superman was done in 1988, roughly how many years later was the sit start done?
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if you're trying to take list's seriously move syrett's with pebble
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How,s about the following
Vienna (original method, before holds bigger) 8a Pete Curtain 1981?
Unrepeated dyno Bowderstone 7c+/8a Pete Curtain early 80,s
Quintescence Tom,s roof Pete Curtain 8a early 80,s
Brad Pitt original Jason Myers 8b 1995
When was inertial reel traverse done?
Sole Power Froggat Moffat 7c 1981?
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How,s about the following
Vienna (original method, before holds bigger) 8a Pete Curtain 1981?
Unrepeated dyno Bowderstone 7c+/8a Pete Curtain early 80,s
Quintescence Tom,s roof Pete Curtain 8a early 80,s
Brad Pitt original Jason Myers 8b 1995
When was inertial reel traverse done?
Sole Power Froggat Moffat 7c 1981?
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How,s about the following
Vienna (original method, before holds bigger) 8a Pete Curtain 1981?
Unrepeated dyno Bowderstone 7c+/8a Pete Curtain early 80,s
Quintescence Tom,s roof Pete Curtain 8a early 80,s
Brad Pitt original Jason Myers 8b 1995
When was inertial reel traverse done?
Sole Power Froggat Moffat 7c 1981?
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AT the risk of being pedantic, syrett's roof is considiered to be V5 by many, not by me cos I haven't done it so don't know.
Pedantic is good. It's what lists like this are all about. Passionate pedantry. :wink: Yorkshiregrit.com also says V5, so I'll move it down a notch.
Vienna (original method, before holds bigger) 8a Pete Curtain 1981?
Unrepeated dyno Bowderstone 7c+/8a Pete Curtain early 80,s
Quintescence Tom,s roof Pete Curtain 8a early 80,s
Brad Pitt original Jason Myers 8b 1995
When was inertial reel traverse done?
Sole Power Froggat Moffat 7c 1981?
Sole Power is a good un. And Vienna.
Quintessence is an eliminate, and it would all get a bit daft if we used eliminates. Same with Myer's Brad Pitt method, although it was hard, it was contrived, albeit unintentionally.
if you're trying to take list's seriously move syrett's with pebble
Ok...
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse? - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 -
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - ? - 70s?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Pebble Wall - Caley - Al manson, Andy Brown, Jerry Peel - mid to late 70s? (originally had more pebbles)
V7 - Syrett's Sauter - Caley - Al manson, Andy Brown, Jerry Peel - mid to late 70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V9 - Sole Power - Frogatt - Jerry Moffatt - 1982
V10 - Unrepeated dyno - Bowderstone - Pete Kirton - Early 1980s?
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Superman - Crag X - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Superman ss - Crag X - Ben Moon - pre 1999?
V14 - Leviathan - Kyloe in the Woods - Malcolm Smith - 1994
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
I'm still not convinced everything up till the 80s happened in Yorkshire.
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red baron.f.a. mike hammil
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red baron.f.a. mike hammil
Good stuff.
When was inertial reel traverse done?
Moffatt, 1980s. So it's vying for position with Superman:
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse? - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 -
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 70s?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Pebble Wall - Caley - Al manson, Andy Brown, Jerry Peel - mid to late 70s? (originally had more pebbles)
V7 - Syrett's Sauter - Caley - Al manson, Andy Brown, Jerry Peel - mid to late 70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V9 - Sole Power - Frogatt - Jerry Moffatt - 1982
V10 - Unrepeated dyno - Bowderstone - Pete Kirton - Early 1980s?
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Inertia Reel Traverse - Jerry Moffatt - Roaches - 1980s?
V12 - Superman - Crag X - Jerry Moffatt - 1988
V13 - Superman ss - Crag X - Ben Moon - pre 1999?
V14 - Leviathan - Kyloe in the Woods - Malcolm Smith - 1994
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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was gonna suggest sole power but thought it was '85... need to get a library of guides at work.
also, quintessence is mentioned as an eliminate but i'm sure leviathan is too...as is superman n'est pas beaucoup? sacre bleau.
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also, quintessence is mentioned as an eliminate but i'm sure leviathan is too...as is superman n'est pas beaucoup? sacre bleau.
Didn't know that about Leviathan. Yeah, I wondered about Superman, but forgot to ask. Can't be having any eliminates or we might as well start listing problems in the School. :roll:
So Gaskins is back in force for the time being, though there must have been something between Inertia Reel and Isla? ...
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse? - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 -
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 70s?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Pebble Wall - Caley - Al manson, Andy Brown, Jerry Peel - mid to late 70s? (originally had more pebbles)
V7 - Syrett's Sauter - Caley - Al manson, Andy Brown, Jerry Peel - mid to late 70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V9 - Sole Power - Frogatt - Jerry Moffatt - 1982
V10 - Unrepeated dyno - Bowderstone - Pete Kirton - Early 1980s?
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Inertia Reel Traverse - Jerry Moffatt - Roaches - 1980s?
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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I thought Sole Power was '83?
Inertia Reel Trav was done in the mid 90s
I think the Superman SS was first done by Malcolm
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was gonna suggest sole power but thought it was '85... need to get a library of guides at work.quote]
I made a mistake there. It's 83, so Rob Gawthorpe is back in with the Dib Scar Direct - V9 at least, according to rockfax database.
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse? - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 -
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 70s?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Pebble Wall - Caley - Al manson, Andy Brown, Jerry Peel - mid to late 70s? (originally had more pebbles)
V7 - Syrett's Sauter - Caley - Al manson, Andy Brown, Jerry Peel - mid to late 70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Unrepeated dyno - Bowderstone - Pete Kirton - Early 1980s?
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Inertia Reel Traverse - Jerry Moffatt - Roaches - 1980s?
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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when did JA do WSS?
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when did JA do WSS?
1985 (http://www.cragx.com/articles/issue16/burbage_west/west_side.htm)
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Syrett's saunter has lost a lot of pebble's over the years, only a few years back it was about a grade and a half easier than it is now. I'm sure it was much easier when first climbed - I'd say V8ish now, hard V6 nineties, prob V5 eighties and before???.
Dunno which you mean by pebble wall? Do you mean the start to True Pebble wall on the webster's whinge block? Or No pebble wall on the New Jerusalem block? Either way both early eighties not mid seventies, and have got harder. Or do you mean Pebble wall at almscliffe, for which the same applies plus the fact it's not V7 even now...
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Syrett's saunter has lost a lot of pebble's over the years, only a few years back it was about a grade and a half easier than it is now. I'm sure it was much easier when first climbed - I'd say V8ish now, hard V6 nineties, prob V5 eighties and before???.
That's off the list then...
Dunno which you mean by pebble wall? Do you mean the start to True Pebble wall on the webster's whinge block? Or No pebble wall on the New Jerusalem block? Either way both early eighties not mid seventies, and have got harder. Or do you mean Pebble wall at almscliffe, for which the same applies plus the fact it's not V7 even now...
I think it's this Pebble Wall (http://www.yorkshiregrit.com/photo.html?id=caley__pebble_wall) at Caley isn't it?
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse? - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 -
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 70s?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Pebble Wall - Caley - Al manson, Andy Brown, Jerry Peel - mid to late 70s? (originally had more pebbles)
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Unrepeated dyno - Bowderstone - Pete Kirton - Early 1980s?
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Inertia Reel Traverse - Jerry Moffatt - Roaches - 1980s?
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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I think it's this Pebble Wall at Caley isn't it?
That is Syrett's Saunter. Jeez - you people :roll:
So we'll stick with Red Baron for V7 then... 1976
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I think it's this Pebble Wall at Caley isn't it?
That is Syrett's Saunter. Jeez - you people :roll:
So we'll stick with Red Baron for V7 then... 1976
Woops. :oops:
Desert Island Arete (http://www.yorkshiregrit.com/photo.html?id=earl__dia) is still in contention for V7 though.
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse? - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 -
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Unrepeated dyno - Bowderstone - Pete Kirton - Early 1980s?
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Inertia Reel Traverse - Jerry Moffatt - Roaches - 1980s?
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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the clue was in the stick syrett's with pebble bit :wink:
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Anyone done The Fly (http://www.yorkshiregrit.com/photo.html?id=crookrise__fly) It's listed here (http://www.geocities.com/yorkshireboulder/gradedlist.htm) as being V9, and was climbed in 1979 by Ron Fawcett. Precedes the Dib Scar route if it is V9.
Or this one:
Pedestal Arete Sitting Start V10 / 7c+ Caley Adam Wainwright 1980s
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the clue was in the stick syrett's with pebble bit :wink:
Yeah, too many names and grades and not enough common sense, that's my problem. That, and I've never been to Caley. Ah well.
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The Fly is not V9. V7 tops. Adam Wainwright was not climbing 7c+ in the eighties. I'm seeing a general theme here - information from yorkshire is vague at best, downright bullshit at worst. Whether that is a factor in yorkshire appearing so prominently in this list I wouldn't like to say....
...and before any peakie slagging starts, I've done my time as a caley local, so speak from experience....
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Inertia Reel Trav was done in the mid 90s
I think the Superman SS was first done by Malcolm
The rockfax guide has it listed as 1980s. Was it definitely the 90s?
I just guessed at the Superman ss - surprised it took so long for someone to correct me! Off the list now though - unless the sitstart is non-eliminate?
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I'm seeing a general theme here - information from yorkshire is vague at best, downright bullshit at worst. Whether that is a factor in yorkshire appearing so prominently in this list I wouldn't like to say....
To be fair, I found the grades for the fly and the wainright problem on an old out of date site. I'm not sure it's as much a question of bullshitting, more of hazy facts and the chinese whisper effect - though of course I could be wrong. I'm sure there were a lot of good climbers in Yorkshire in the 70s, I'm just mystified that no-one seems to know much about f.a.s in other areas.
But here's the current tally, by area.
Yorkshire: 7
Peak: 1 or 2 (first V10 uncertain)
Northumberland: 1 or 2 (first V10 uncertain)
Lancashire: 4
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Some early hard stuff at Pex too... though undergraded generally so unknown.
Impression I got was that anything 'new' in yorkshire was immediately retro-claimed as 'done years ago and easy too youth'. Hence I'm a bit sceptical of some dates... admittedly the little crags up there do lend themselves more to bouldering though, no doubt they were climbing as hard as anywhere in the seventies.
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Some early hard stuff at Pex too... though undergraded generally so unknown.
Yeah, I thought there must be. Needs local knowledge I guess.
Impression I got was that anything 'new' in yorkshire was immediately retro-claimed as 'done years ago and easy too youth'. Hence I'm a bit sceptical of some dates... admittedly the little crags up there do lend themselves more to bouldering though, no doubt they were climbing as hard as anywhere in the seventies.
Well, maybe. But apart from Railway slab, there has hardly been a single suggestion for any sub-V9 stuff in any other area, which I find a bit odd.
Anyway, just thought of one to fill the V6 slot, until someone thinks of a better idea:
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse? - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 - Above and Beyond the Kinaesthetic Barrier - Burbage South - John Allen - 1976
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V7 - Desert Island Arete - ? - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Unrepeated dyno - Bowderstone - Pete Kirton - Early 1980s?
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Inertia Reel Traverse - Jerry Moffatt - Roaches - 1980s?
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
And you'd think that if John Allen was doing worrying highball V6s in 1976, there must have been people doing safer but harder problems at that time in the Peak. Any ideas?
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Alan Rouse began climbing at the age of 16 in 1968, the year of the foot and mouth epidemic. The Breck was close to his home in Wallasey and it was here that he developed his fierce finger strength and mastery of face climbing, a style at which he excelled. His school friend and climbing partner Nick Parry recalls two highly significant new problems done by Rouse in 1968/9:
“Over several months he managed to put together the girdle of Bluebell Wall, a continuous series of 5c moves and made the first continuous traverse that summer."
(that's “Breck 5c†or 6a/b in real money! Rouse's application of the grading system was famously harsh. The traverse is now rated V6, 6b)
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Greg Griffiths and Mike Collins both made hard additions at the Breck in the late 1970s, with Collins' “Mid-Level Traverse†of Bluebell Wall, V8+, 6c most notable amongst them. 1979 I think
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The Beatnik was first top-roped in 1959 by Jim O' Neil. Rouse and Boysen both soloed it in 1971 after top-rope practice. Probably about V5 then, highball V7 now.
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There's a shit load more but you'll have to wait, boys 'n girls :wink:
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The Beatnik was first top-roped in 1959 by Jim O' Neil. Rouse and Boysen both soloed it in 1971 after top-rope practice. Probably about V5 then, highball V7 now.
Impressive, but is the hard bit boulderable, or is it more of a route? And does Helsby 6a (rockfax gives it E5 6a) really equate to V7? :shock: Do you mean it has got harder since the FA, and was an early V5, or the grade has gone up and it was actually an early V7? I've put it in at V5 for now...
Greg Griffiths and Mike Collins both made hard additions at the Breck in the late 1970s, with Collins' “Mid-Level Traverse†of Bluebell Wall, V8+, 6c most notable amongst them. 1979 I think
Well, we haven't got a V8+ yet, so that goes in, unless it's an eliminate?
Alan Rouse...managed to put together the girdle of Bluebell Wall, a continuous series of 5c moves and made the first continuous traverse that summer."
(that's “Breck 5c†or 6a/b in real money! Rouse's application of the grading system was famously harsh. The traverse is now rated V6, 6b)
Good stuff. Replaces Above and beyond. Why have I never heard of the Breck before? Where is it exactly - I'm guessing somewhere in Merseyside?
Also, Ron Fawcett climbed Neon Dust in 1983, same year as Walk On By....
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse? - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V5 - The Beatnik - The Breck - Al Rouse and Martin Boysen - 1971
V6 - Bluebell Wall Traverse - The Breck - Al Rouse - 1968
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V7 - Desert Island Arete - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8+ - Mid-level Traverse - The Breck - Mike Collins - 1979
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Unrepeated dyno - Bowderstone - Pete Kirton - Early 1980s?
V10 - Walk on by - Curbar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1983
V10 - Neon Dust - Frogatt - Ron Fawcett - 1983
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Inertia Reel Traverse - Jerry Moffatt - Roaches - 1980s?
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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Neon Dust is only V10 for the direct, the original traversed in above this. What year was the direct done in?
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Inertia Reel Trav was done in the mid 90s
I think the Superman SS was first done by Malcolm
The rockfax guide has it listed as 1980s. Was it definitely the 90s?
Its gotta be pre mid-90's - I moved to Stoke in 1995 and it had certainly been done before then
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The Beatnik is at Helsby, not at the Breck.
Stevie Haston visited the Breck in 1979 and upped the ante with a vicious problem that is still reckoned to be around the Brit 7a/V10 mark or “harder than V10s at Huecoâ€, according to Haston.
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The Beatnik is at Helsby, not at the Breck.
Stevie Haston visited the Breck in 1979 and upped the ante with a vicious problem that is still reckoned to be around the Brit 7a/V10 mark or “harder than V10s at Huecoâ€, according to Haston.
Woops, I did mean to put Helsby. Where is the Breck though? I'm curious.
Does Haston's problem have a name? And has it had any repeats?
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse? - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse and Martin Boysen - 1971
V6 - Bluebell Wall Traverse - The Breck - Al Rouse - 1968
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V7 - Desert Island Arete - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8+ - Mid-level Traverse - The Breck - Mike Collins - 1979
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Helsby Problem - Helsby - Stevie Hastion - 1979
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Inertia Reel Traverse - Jerry Moffatt - Roaches - 1980s?
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
Neon Dust is only V10 for the direct, the original traversed in above this. What year was the direct done in?
Oh. Dunno. I've only got the rockfax, which says nothing about directs or indirects - just that often people scuttle off to the valkyrie crack after doing the hard bit.
What about Narcissus? I've seen people trying that with a bunch of mats. Boulder problem or route? And how hard? V6/V7?
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know this might sound a daft queation, but if regular superman starts on that low break at like waist height, then where does the sitter start, cuz i cun't see no holds beneath that.
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Starts underneath the roof at the back, slightly right. Another example of a peak classic where the extra difficulty comes from climbing the original part, but with your hands and feet now covered in crap.
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fuckin hell Ru its almost like you're reading from a guidebook.......
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Neon Dust in the rockfax bouldering guide is the direct part of ND direct. Neon Dust was originally climbed with a traverse in from the side as a route to the break, the direct was presumably added later. Narcicus is a route. Don't you have any guidebooks??
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fuckin hell Ru its almost like you're reading from a guidebook.......
Well spotted. It was originally a description for this problem, and I quite liked it. But then I didn't put Crag X in the guide. Luckily Peak Limestone isn't short of muddy sit starts to I could recycle it.
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Woops, I did mean to put Helsby. Where is the Breck though? I'm curious.
Does Haston's problem have a name? And has it had any repeats?
Breck Road, Wallasey. Go there -- it needs the traffic. But wear gloves and don't look the locals in the eye :wink:
Yes, it's called "Haston's Problem" and 'the move' was repeated on a top rope by Keith Jones back in the day.
And then there's Pex Hill, which will probably fuck up your list yet again :twisted: with stuff like Monoblock
The whole history thing is a bit of a project at the moment and should see the light of day sometime in the next few decades, other work/ climbing permitting...
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Neon Dust in the rockfax bouldering guide is the direct part of ND direct. Neon Dust was originally climbed with a traverse in from the side as a route to the break, the direct was presumably added later. Narcicus is a route. Don't you have any guidebooks??
Yeah, I meant the rockfax route guidebook. I don't have the BMC definitive thing. Where on earth did Neon Dust go - the easy way up is up Valkyrie surely? - and it's just right of that. I thought it was Oedipus that traversed in. I'm very confused. :?
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Whats this unrepeated dyno on the Bowderstone? :? Is it the slapstick dyno? Cos if it is I'm sure someone must have repeated it.
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Also I don't think you should have problems which have been altered, on the list, as its hard to establish just how much harder or easier they are now, why not just stick to intact problems?
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Breck Road, Wallasey. Go there -- it needs the traffic. But wear gloves and don't look the locals in the eye :wink:
Perhaps one reason it doesn't get any traffic is that no-one seems to talk about it/know about it. It isn't on the ukc crags database for a start, and there are only one or two brief mentions of it on the web - most of those out of date. And if ever someone asks about bouldering in the area, people always refer them to Pex, maybe Helsby and Frodsham, maybe Brownstones a bit further away, but no-one ever mentions The Breck. Yould create a crag in the ukc database, then at least keen boulderers in the area might stumble across it and spread the word...
Yes, it's called "Haston's Problem" and 'the move' was repeated on a top rope by Keith Jones back in the day.
For some reason it's not in the Western Grit Rockfax. Perhaps, again, no-one knew about it?
And then there's Pex Hill, which will probably fuck up your list yet again :twisted: with stuff like Monoblock
Yeah, I had a suspiscion Pex would pop up at some point. :wink:
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Traverse? - Shipley Glen - ? - 1920
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse and Martin Boysen - 1971
V6 - Bluebell Wall Traverse - The Breck - Al Rouse - 1968
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V7 - Desert Island Arete - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8+ - Mid-level Traverse - The Breck - Mike Collins - 1979
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Hastion - 1979
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Inertia Reel Traverse - Jerry Moffatt - Roaches - 1980s?
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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Whats this unrepeated dyno on the Bowderstone? Is it the slapstick dyno? Cos if it is I'm sure someone must have repeated it.
Dunno. Ask Andy Harris.
Also I don't think you should have problems which have been altered, on the list, as its hard to establish just how much harder or easier they are now, why not just stick to intact problems?
Yeah, I was thinking that as well. The thing is, it does mean that problems could move off the list if someone messed them up, and I like the idea of establishing a permanent list of milestones - though of course there's never going be any way to be totally accurate. And it also means that problems that have since got harder would have to be taken off - the end result might be that the list just favours the more solid rocktypes, which isn't really a true reflection of bouldering history. But you're right that it does make it hard to gage them by current standards, as all we have to go on is word of mouth.
What does everyone else think?
Problems that would go:
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse and Martin Boysen - 1971
(since got harder.)
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s?
(originally had better footholds)
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger) - would be replaced by Careless Torque
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For some reason it's not in the Western Grit Rockfax. Perhaps, again, no-one knew about it?
No one will find it if you keep insisting it's at Helsby :wink:
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For some reason it's not in the Western Grit Rockfax. Perhaps, again, no-one knew about it?
No one will find it if you keep insisting it's at Helsby :wink:
Goddamn. :oops: Where's my secretary? And where's that work experience boy - I need more COFFEE! And why haven't I got a job? Goddamn.
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Found some great photos on this site:
FRCC (http://www.frcc.co.uk/rock/boulder.htm)
All photos date from the 1890s and were taken by the Abraham Brothers of Keswick - they are part of the FRCC collection in Abbot Hall, Kendal.
This one is brilliant!
(http://www.frcc.co.uk/rock/bouldering/YboulderXS.JPG)
Mosedale Boulder (GR 178104)
The Y-boulder was a test piece for the Victorian climbers - who attacked it upside down. It is now more of historical interest but can provide passing amusement
(http://www.frcc.co.uk/rock/bouldering/MosedaleXS.JPG)
[align=center]Bowderdale boulder[/align]
(http://www.frcc.co.uk/rock/bouldering/barndoorXS.JPG)
[align=center]Barn door traverse[/align]
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Nice! Keep thinking I can see Dave Thomas...
In his famous hard grit article 'Dangerous Crocodile snogging', Dave Pegg heralded Careless Torque as the first 7b move on grit.... though if Ron came in from the left as has been suggested, this might not be the case....
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Keep thinking I can see Dave Thomas...
Have you been suffering with this for long? Do you find yourself having to look twice at people as the image of an albino molerat fades from your mind? Do you recoil in horror when you walk into a crowded pub and for a moment all the faces which turn toward you are wearing a pale joker smile and limp white hair? Are you suffering any strong urges to tuck your t-shirt into your shorts then pull them up to your armpits? I would consider seeking medical advice right away!
Is the LH start easier then? How hard?
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sorry that V3 traverse at shiple glen is actually at Almscliffe and was done in the 50's
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sorry that V3 traverse at shiple glen is actually at Almscliffe and was done in the 50's
Yeah, I thought that seemed a little out of line. Well then, we need another V3. First 6a move anyone?
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 -
V4 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse and Martin Boysen - 1971
V6 - Bluebell Wall Traverse - The Breck - Al Rouse - 1968
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V7 - Desert Island Arete - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8+ - Mid-level Traverse - The Breck - Mike Collins - 1979
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Hastion - 1979
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Inertia Reel Traverse - Jerry Moffatt - Roaches - 1980s?
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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reckon you need to drop traverses as the crux is generally based on being pumped, rather than genuine difficulty.
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isn't the Wall of Horrors start generally thought (i.e. on yorkshiregrit.com) to be V3? I know it gets V5 6b in the guide but that's clearly rubbish - it's not that hard, and the route's E3 6a. Now you need another V4 though.... (the virgin traverse?).
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Alright, no traverses. Or I'll stick them on a seperate list and see if anyone knows the rest - though I would have thought traverses would be even less likely to be recorded than up problems. Could be wrong.
Above and beyond is back in.
Wall of horrors is down to V3. Was the arete on Joe's Slab at frogatt done at the same time as the slab?
Inertia Reel is out. Need another V12.How bout any of these?
4. Working Class 8a+ Ben Moon Bowden Doors
5. Work Hard 8a+ Jason Myers Curbar
7. Jerrys Thing 8a+ Jerry Moffat Burbage South
Also, when was the Ace done?
2. The Ace 8b Jerry Moffat Plantation
And does anyone know anything about that crack at Simon's Seat? I could be wrong, but wasn't Scoop Face one of the first 5as (V0) and climbed in 1914? So it would be surprising to have a 5b before that.
Also, when did Whillans do the direct start to Jankers at Frogatt? 50s? Contender for first V5?
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 -
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse and Martin Boysen - 1971
V6 - Above and Beyond the Kinaesthetic Barrier - Burbage South - John Allen - 1976
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V7 - Desert Island Arete - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Hastion - 1979
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 -
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
Traverses
V1
V2
V3
V4 - Virgin Traverse - ? - ? - ?
V5 - Traverse - Shipley Glen - ? - 1950s?
V6 - Bluebell Wall Traverse - The Breck - Al Rouse - 1968
V7
V8
V8+ - Mid-level Traverse - The Breck - Mike Collins - 1979
V9
V10 - Keel Boulder traverse - Almscliff - ? - ?
V11
V12 - Inertia Reel Traverse - Jerry Moffatt - Roaches - 1980s?
V13
V14 - Anesthesia - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2000
V15 - History awaits... :wink:
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what happened to "of note"? i want to see more of Cofe's Arse
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what happened to "of note"? i want to see more of Cofe's Arse
Doesn't everyone...?
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beatnik is a route.
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beatnik is a route.
Yeah, I wondered about that. I'll take it off unless anyone can tell me it's been done with mats.
As for desert island arete, I just found this on Crag X (http://www.cragx.com/articles/issue10/grit_extreme/yorkshire.htm):
E7 6c Desert Island Arete Earl Crag Jerry Peel 1999 Follow arete direct to top
1999? Not 60s/70s then? Perhaps the idea of it being climbed previously is something to do with the alleged staging incident mentioned on the Dangerous site:
E6 6c Earl Crag Hard problem start (used to be given 6b!) leads to some wide breaks with bomber gear (large friends? Sling on spike), then a runout up the wall right of the arete (easier). Has been onsighted by Gareth Parry (2nd ascent). The photo in the old Yorkshire guidebook is rumoured to be staged.
So...
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 -
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 - Above and Beyond the Kinaesthetic Barrier - Burbage South - John Allen - 1976
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Hastion - 1979
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 -
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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i think the start had been done for few years before the top e6 bit.
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Desert Island Arete is a boulder problem that was done in 70s (or sometime way back when) by Jerry Peel that finishes on a break from which you traverse off from or drop off. The quote above is referencing the route which is the continuation of DIA above the break. Earl's only at the end of the M65 you know I'm surprised you haven't been, (there's even a manky quarried bit you could explore! ;) )
V13 - when was the Ace done in relation to Isla de Enchanta?
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Yeah, I wondered about that. I'll take it off unless anyone can tell me it's been done with mats.
It's been done with mats. And without.
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V13 traverse - I think the Traverse of the Gods at Longride get V13, well it probably gets something silly like 6c in the book, but (I've been told) it's about route 8b+/8c, which I think is V13.
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I'd have though a route length trav with a french grade 8b+/8c would only normally merit V11 max.
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true - things like powerbland and benz roof are always given F8b and they are only 7c/+ i.e. V9/10
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Yeah the Craig-y traverse is V11 I'd say, for the easiest and original way. (its 8b+)
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I'm pretty sure the longrdige traverse gets V11.
Anyway, I've started a new thread for traverses, as this one is getting quite tricky to keep up with: Sidewards history (http://ukbouldering.com/board/viewtopic.php?p=52311#52311)
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going off thread slightly.isnt there a route at trowgill given f7b+ which is supposed to have a v7 crux section after 20 metres of climbing.
yeah right!!
yorkshire eh.
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Desert Island Arete is a boulder problem that was done in 70s (or sometime way back when) by Jerry Peel that finishes on a break from which you traverse off from or drop off. The quote above is referencing the route which is the continuation of DIA above the break.
Ok, it's back in. As is Beatnik.
Earl's only at the end of the M65 you know I'm surprised you haven't been, (there's even a manky quarried bit you could explore! ;) )
I've only been back in the Northwest since September (didn't climb when I last lived here) and I've been injured since then. Hence all the exploring and large amount of time spent talking about problems and not doing them... :roll:
Anyway...
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 -
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse and Martin Boysen - 1971
V6 - Above and Beyond the Kinaesthetic Barrier - Burbage South - John Allen - 1976
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V7 - Desert Island Arete - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Hastion - 1979
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 -
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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what about toms original at stoney v6 this was done around the the late 60s/early 70s.the hold had been glued on when i was shown it in 1975.
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what about toms original at stoney v6 this was done around the the late 60s/early 70s.the hold had been glued on when i was shown it in 1975.
It's good, but it's an eliminate. It would all git a bit silly if we started having eliminates, even though some of them are pretty famous (eg Superman in 88).
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Aha:
Gib tor has a brilliant arete that I think is called The Stall (6c), Johnny Dawes claimed the 1st ascent of this, but when Jason and me went there we met Boysen who said he did it in the sixties which if true (and quite likely to be) was a phenomenal effort as it is realy quite powerful.
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 -
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse and Martin Boysen - 1971
V6 - Stall - Gib Torr - Martin Boysen - 1960s?
V6 - Tom's Original - ? - Stoney Middleton - late 60s/early 70s?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V7 - Desert Island Arete - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Hastion - 1979
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 -
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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isnt toms original just the easiest line across the roof from the back to the lip?
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isnt toms original just the easiest line across the roof from the back to the lip?
Is it? Then why are all the holds numbered in the guide? I haven't done it, so let me know if I'm wrong. I did go and have a look once, but the big drop was just a little too close for my liking. Alright, I'll stick it in until someone tells me otherwise...
(Have edited the list above).
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take it off
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take it off
See I knew that would happen. :roll:
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 -
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse and Martin Boysen - 1971
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 - Stall - Gib Torr - Martin Boysen - 1960s?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Haston - 1979
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 -
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
Still got a V12 to fill:
Inertia Reel is out. Need another V12.How bout any of these?
4. Working Class 8a+ Ben Moon Bowden Doors
5. Work Hard 8a+ Jason Myers Curbar
7. Jerrys Thing 8a+ Jerry Moffat Burbage South
Anyone know the answer to this one as well:
Also, when was the Ace done?
2. The Ace 8b Jerry Moffat Plantation
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take stall arete off any serious list
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take stall arete off any serious list
How come?
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if you go n see some of these probs you'll realise, like crazy paving, they're not all they're cracked up to be
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Working Class 8a+ Ben Moon Bowden Doors
isnt this a malc smith problem
the ace, 2000?
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Working Class 8a+ Ben Moon Bowden Doors
isnt this a malc smith problem[/quote]
Seems Malc did the sitstart:
Working Class Sit Start Font 8a+ Malcolm Smith 2003
I copied the Ben Moon thing of some site or other, wasn't just me making it up. Could still be wrong though.
the ace, 2000?
Yep:
The problem, a sit start to The Joker (V11), was established by Jerry Moffatt in 2000 - climbing.com
As for Careless Torque, here's something from the ukc archives about Malc Smith doing it:
He was trying it ground-up but did not want to do the top move. He then toproped it a few times, then did it. He was doing the first move (crux) every time and making it look 6a and not 7a. He said it was 8a+ to get standing on the arete.
So maybe it is V12? That would make it a first.
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Brownstones again. Anyone done Rusty Wall and got an opinion on the grade other than uk 6c? Done in 77. If it's V8 or harder it would be a contender, though it could be as easy as V6? Looks harder than Hank's, though I haven't tried it for a couple of years.
Muddy arete also gets 5c and was done pre 48. Though I remember thinking it was no way 5c, so I'm not sticking it in unless anyone disagrees. Any takers?
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I got Careless Torque = V12 from the Rockfax database, not sure who their source was. As for Working Class, it's accredited to Moon in the Northumbrian guide update (8a) but there's a line on the Slackjaw website about how he almost phoned Malcolm Smith for the sequence whilst filming Stick It. The sit start is definitely Malc's though - gets 8a+ in the guide.
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I got Careless Torque = V12 from the Rockfax database, not sure who their source was.
Yeah, someone here suggested Malc thought it was V11, but it looks like everything is pointing towards V12. It's had a couple of ascents since then though, hasn't it? Maybe they downgraded it? It's back in at V12 for now...
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 -
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse and Martin Boysen - 1971
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 - Stall - Gib Torr - Martin Boysen - 1960s?
V7 - Desert Island Arete - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Haston - 1979
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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isn't careless torque 8a? i.e. about v11? i wouldn't trust a rockfax database for that.
isn't DIA V6 anyway?
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isn't careless torque 8a? i.e. about v11? i wouldn't trust a rockfax database for that.
isn't DIA V6 anyway?
Well...
here's something from the ukc archives about Malc Smith doing it:
Quote:He was trying it ground-up but did not want to do the top move. He then toproped it a few times, then did it. He was doing the first move (crux) every time and making it look 6a and not 7a. He said it was 8a+ to get standing on the arete.
If Malc thought it was 8a+, who else has climbed it and what did they think?
As for DIA, it gets V7 on Yorkshire Grit (http://www.yorkshiregrit.com/photo.html?id=earl__dia)
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I was of the opinion DIA was considered 7a/V6 these days, seems no harder to me. Careless Torque is 8a in the new peak bouldering guide, which is surely the most up-to-date source of info on peak bouldering grades. Although only Andy Brown has repeated CT after Malc, quite a few have bouldered out the start section which Malc graded 8a+ and the concensus seems to be 8a. The main reason why the full thing hasn't seen many repeats is that it is very bold to do ground up and most boulderers operating at this level consider ground up to be the only worthwhile way to climb a boulder problem.
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bonjoy has answered for me.
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CT
Marc Le Menestrel toproped CT then knackered himself falling off. He thought it 8a+ and an amazing problem.
All the guns at the time thought it was at least 8a+ (moon, moffat, myles all failed to do it)
Sure Malc felt bottom bit 8a and whilst top bit hardish and much scarier didn't necceitsate an increase in grade.
Working class
Originall done by Ben at 8a matching little crimps above and left of sidepull. hard snatch to tiny dish and rockover to finish.
Foothold crumbled, repeated by Ben at 8a+ and brick hard. Malc did it this way as well.
Then somebody worked out dyno way much easier 7c+ish, now all sorts of methods.
Sure Malc still does it original way to dish.
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Most who have done the start to Careless Torque consider it to be bottom end 8a+. As with most other problems, this meant Ru put it in the new guide as a hard 8a.
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I was of the opinion DIA was considered 7a/V6 these days, seems no harder to me.
Didn't Jerry Peel do the low start to it at roughly the same time though, or do you think this is V6 too? I would have thought the additional moves warrented an extra grade. What was the problem like before the hold came off and left the large sidepull, easier/harder/same?
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Did both the sit starts before the sidepull came off, the LH one was 7b/V8 the RH one bottom end 7a+/V7 IMO
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I reckon Walk on by is a more solid bet for the first V11 than Vienna.
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rusty wall is a soft 6c. got it secong go back in the day. dont know what v grade that makes it but considerably easier than hanks wall.
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rusty wall is a soft 6c. got it secong go back in the day. dont know what v grade that makes it but considerably easier than hanks wall.
Oh well. Probably V6 then (same as Pigswill).
I reckon Walk on by is a more solid bet for the first V11 than Vienna.
V11? Gets V10 in the guide. Is that another "hard for the grade"? Was done in 83 tho, whereas Vienne was 81. Or is Vienna suspect?
Didn't Jerry Peel do the low start to it at roughly the same time though
...And Jerry Peel hangs on to this week's Top of the Probs lucky number seven with the extended version of D.I.A...
(http://www.radiorewind.co.uk/images/savilles_hats.JPG)
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So Moon, Moffatt, Myles, Le Menestrel and others (inc. possibly Malc) reckon 8a+ or soft 8a+. That sounds fair enough to me. From what everyone is saying, it does seem at the moment as though 8a+ carries the most weight...
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I only put it in as 8a cos that's what Malc said - i.e. I didn't downgrade it myself. I think that Andy Brown thought 8a too, but then he missed out half the moves. And I asked a few other people that have done the start.
Anyway, I know Ben thinks it's 8a+ cos he told me once the guide was out.
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i.e. I didn't downgrade it myself
Nice, Ru, nice. Shift that blame. So who downgraded all the others? ;)
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stall the boulder problem was done early 80's
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stall the boulder problem was done early 80's
I was about to say that
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Quote:stall the boulder problem was done early 80's
I was about to say that
Not according to the mcmail bouldering site:
Gib tor has a brilliant arete that I think is called The Stall (6c), Johnny Dawes claimed the 1st ascent of this, but when Jason and me went there we met Boysen who said he did it in the sixties which if true (and quite likely to be) was a phenomenal effort as it is realy quite powerful.
The new guide also has boysen as the FA.
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The new guide also has boysen as the FA.
yes, by boysen.
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Sorry, I meant to add By Boysen in the 1980s. He told me himself.
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Sorry, I meant to add By Boysen in the 1980s. He told me himself.
Alright then, that's fair enough. Above and Beyond is back in. Just beats Rusty Wall at Brownstones, which was done in 77...
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr and friends - 1948-49
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 -
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse and Martin Boysen - 1971
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 - Above and Beyond the Kinaesthetic Barrier - Burbage South - John Allen - 1976
V7 - Desert Island Arete (Low Start) - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Haston - 1979
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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You've got rusty wall down as V8 in your guide??!!
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You've got rusty wall down as V8 in your guide??!!
Yeah, I just assumed it was harder than Hank's, and I've never tried it properly. No-one ever pointed that one out, maybe cos it's just mentioned in passing as it's already in the bible. Updated the guide now though. If there are any other grades in there you think are a bit out, let me know...
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Isn't Above and Beyond chipped? Surely this disqualifies it from 'decent problem' status. Or am I imagining this?
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Gib tor has a brilliant arete that I think is called The Stall (6c), Johnny Dawes claimed the 1st ascent of this, but when Jason and me went there we met Boysen who said he did it in the sixties which if true (and quite likely to be) was a phenomenal effort as it is realy quite powerful.
I wrote that a number of years ago (94?) in response to a question on rec.climbing about Staffs bouldering before the 1st Peak guides by Al.. funny to see it being quoted as part of a history thread :-) Grimer is right though, it's an eighties problem - I just assumed at the time that Boysen had done it way back..
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Gib tor has a brilliant arete that I think is called The Stall (6c), Johnny Dawes claimed the 1st ascent of this, but when Jason and me went there we met Boysen who said he did it in the sixties which if true (and quite likely to be) was a phenomenal effort as it is realy quite powerful.
The new guide also has boysen as the FA.
There's two stalls - the boulder problem starting arete and the E5 route above it, Dawes did the route, Boysen did the boulder problem
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Isn't Above and Beyond chipped? Surely this disqualifies it from 'decent problem' status. Or am I imagining this?
yep there is a chipped/improved pebble.the story i heard was that it was climbed to the break using a different pebble as a foot hold.but this broke off before the top bit was climbed.so the other one was improved.
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Isn't Above and Beyond chipped? Surely this disqualifies it from 'decent problem' status. Or am I imagining this?
yep there is a chipped/improved pebble.the story i heard was that it was climbed to the break using a different pebble as a foot hold.but this broke off before the top bit was climbed.so the other one was improved.
Huh. That's a shame as it looks like an awesome problem. But we can't really have chipped problems in the list. Rusty Wall it is then...
V1 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1900ish?
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr & friends - 1948-49
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 -
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse & Martin Boysen - 1971
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 - Rusty Wall - Brownstones - Dave Hollows & Hank Pasquil - 1977
V7 - Desert Island Arete (Low Start) - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8 - Super Bald Arete - Ilkley - ? - ?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Haston - 1979
V11 - Vienna - Bowden Doors - Pete Kirton - 1981 (before holds got bigger)
V12 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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Still can't understand how Vienna has ever been harder than Walk on by.
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Gives me times to reminisce of days of old. Lucian Cottle, Jason Myers, Gav Ellis and a spotty youth on his 1st trip to the county way back in 95. Heady days.
If you'd seen Vienna before it eroded (pre 97ish) it was much harder. The 1st hold was 2 fingers half joint and the 1st move english 6c vs about 5c now (4 fingers 1st joint). The foot holds were just off vertical smears which was why the mono way was easier then as you had something to stand on then.
Remember Jason Myers running laps on it but he could never do the original method direct from the 1st hold. He held this in big esteem. Much harder than WOB whether you're a dyno meister or not.
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Still not convinced, even dug out The Thing #8 to check your sequence and the footholds. Is this pete's sequence or did he dyno? Goes to show why problems which have changed are hard to grade from memory...
However I can see why someone whose nickname is 'crimping' might think WOB is not so bad.
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Pete Dynoed direct from 1st hold (all holds smaller) to jug (8a).
Jason got crimp with left, built right foot up direct below 1st hand hold onto nubbin and dynoed again with left (7c+).
Crimp variant gets crimp with left then fire through with right to jug(7c) or (harder) snatch mono(7c+) swap feet and go to jug.
Dyno direct bigger holds (7b+?)
I guess Curtain did the purest variant and would never have considered anything less which was unrepeated in any form until I think Jason did 2nd ascent 10 years or so later.
Who'd have thought there were so many ways to do a dyno. That's progress (& erosion) for you!
Never the less still a magic problem and one that stands out to me 10 years after doing it.
Wish people wouldn't do it in there trainers (Mr Graham). It's not clever and knackers it up even more.
JB. I'm guessing you have to do the 1st rockover on WOB off the LH 2 finger pocket which makes it a grade harder than if you can reach the slopey pocket from the big footholds. I'd say solid 7c+ with rockover and 7c if you can miss it out. Andy
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Ok so Pete did the first ascent by a wack but fly sequence? A fine effort but I'm not sure it should be on the list - even at the time there were easier ways and it has since got easier all ways. The crag X/ minus ten probs (undoubtedly the hardest at the time) have all been dropped for being eliminates.
Yeah I have to do the start move on WOB. However the crux for me is motivating myself to pull on such unpleasant holds. Minging.
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Gives me times to reminisce of days of old. Lucian Cottle, Jason Myers, Gav Ellis and a spotty youth on his 1st trip to the county way back in 95. Heady days
Wasn't 'keen' Rich with us too and it took about 15 hours for him to drive in that White Fiesta from Sheffield?
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yep, you can't have vienna in cos then you could put BP original way in. when i tried vienna, when i saw you up there andy, it was no harder than font 7a
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Yep, if the original sequence was an eliminate, then we need another V11. With Careless Torque at V12, there aren't any other contenders at the moment apart from slingshot, but that aint kosher either. Suggestions?
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c'etait demain?
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Rasputin's Caravan - Halfcross Crag, Bob Gilchrist 1986
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is superman an eliminate then?
what are the dates then for FAs of stuff like work hard, blazin 48s, westworld, working class, art of self destruct etc, so we can rule things in/out?
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all early to mid nineties, dunno about godskin's
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is superman an eliminate then?
Kind of, it crosses the much the same ground as the hulk. From what I remember, if you start on one set of holds the easiest way up is the Hulk and if you start on an overlapping set a bit further right then the easiest way up is Superman.
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ok, my thinking is if we're not allowing traverses or caagx/stoney shit then we might have ruled out the 80s for an 8a, so look for early 90s.
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According to Lakesbloc, Art of Self Destruction was done in 95. Any advance on 95?
Anyone know anything about this:
Pete Kirton's early 80s contributions to god's rock, including his (unrepeated) full front-lever type thingy along the lip of the Front Bowden cave?
And this:
Greg Griffiths'/Mike Collins' stuff on Murkeyside sandstone (V10/V11 mid 80s)?
And has Haston's problem now been repeated (sorry can't remember if someone already said this) cos here it's being suggested as font 8a...
Haston's (unrepeated) problem on the back wall at the the Breck (ca. 1980 - British tech grade 7a...Font 8a?...first ever in the UK?)?
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Some of the grades are a bit out, but here's a list that has most 8as and above that were climbed pre 2001:
Uk hardest (http://www.australianbouldering.com/uk.html)
Not sure why some of them are highlighted in red.
Anyone spot any from the 80s?
How many pre 95?
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It's there in writing at last:
danny's problem 8a.
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good god!!! has this not gone on long enough. its like the bouldering version of trainspotting....although now you have mentioned dannys problem dense will never let it lie.(http://www.realhhg.com/graphics/spotter.gif)
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good god!!! has this not gone on long enough. its like the bouldering version of trainspotting....
I find lists have a soothing effect. Aaah.
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Couple more details.
The crack in the back of the yorkshire grit guide was done in 1895 and is 5a, which means we now need a V1.
Also, I'm assuming Super Bald Arete is Bald Pate Superdirect which rumour has it was done by Andy Brown in the 70s. Can't find it on Yorkshiregrit.com tho. Does it have another name?
V0 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1895
V1 -
V2 - Parr's Crack - Brownstones - Eric Parr & friends - 1948-49
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 -
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse & Martin Boysen - 1971
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 - Rusty Wall - Brownstones - Dave Hollows & Hank Pasquil - 1977
V7 - Desert Island Arete (Low Start) - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8 - Bald Pate Superdirect - Ilkley - Andy Brown - 70s?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Haston - 1979
V11 -
V12 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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Posted this topic on ukc and now the lower grades are once again dominated by yorkshire problems.
A few interesting things...
What grade is the slab in between Joe's Direct and Joe's Arete? I seem to recall it being quite tricky - as in I couldn't get anywhere near it - and according to Dennis Gray some little-known member of the Rock and Ice (I forget who) used to take great delight in showing Joe et al. how to do it (none of them could). You might, of course, call that an eliminate.
I guess that would be 50s/60s - And about V6?
And V2 in the 30s is world class - planetfear have it as first being done in font in 1935 by Pierre Allaine.
And Monoblock has popped up as a possible V11 - apparently the given grade of V10 is just as guesstimate. There are only a few people who have actually done it (Pete Chadwick, Andy Popp, Phil Davidson and Joe Healy?)
V0 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1895
V1 -
V2 - Spider Wall - Ilkley - ? - 1930's?
V3 - Crucifix Arete - Almscliff - Don Whillans - 1958
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 -
V5 - Gray's Wall - Almscliff - ? - 1960s?
V6 - Barleymow - Almscliff - Tony Barley - 1966
V7 - Desert Island Arete (Low Start) - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8 - Bald Pate Superdirect - Ilkley - Andy Brown - 70s?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Haston - 1979
V11 -
V12 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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are you sure barley mow was'nt led.the crack looks like its had a peg runner or two in it and tony barley never would use pegs on grit. :wink:
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re your comments on cockfax.barley mow is highball v6 its been graded e3 6b before bouldering grades.yet the t.b. could'nt do the start to gypsy graded v3 and had to stand on someone shoulders to do it.
a lot of the 50s/ 60s history is all according to dennis grey and his unfalible memory.
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So Barleymow is pretty doubtful then - though the e3 6b grade sounds right.
And the slab between joe's direct and joe's arete that "some little-known member of the Rock and Ice (I forget who) used to take great delight in showing Joe et al. how to do it (none of them could)" was also one of Dennis's stories. So I take it you aren't convinced?
And then there's
V6 - Trackside - Curbar - Nicky Stokes - mid 70s?
Which isn't one of dennis's stories, but is more of a rumour.
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many moons ago i used to see pennis at the original leeds wall and how he used to entertain us with tales of the do daring of the rock and ice.but he also let on about when they used to chip holds/pull on pegs etc.
back to barley mow.look at black chipper a chipped hold and a drilled thread,hardley indicative of a bouldering master.
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According to the rockfax Northern Limestone guide, Peter Eccles climbed a V5 called Blue Light at Attermire Scar in 1967
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According to the rockfax Northern Limestone guide, Peter Eccles climbed a V5 called Blue Light at Attermire Scar in 1967
Good stuff, that can replace the suspect Gray's Wall. Do you (or the northern limestone guide) know if Rob Gawthorpe's english 7a start to Mistaken Identity at Kilnsey is a boulder problem or not?
V0 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1895
V1 -
V2 - Spider Wall - Ilkley - ? - 1930's?
V3 - Crucifix Arete - Almscliff - Don Whillans - 1958
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 -
V5 - Blue Light - Attermire Scar - Peter Eccles - 1967
V6 - Trackside - Curbar - Nicky Stokes - mid 70s?
V6 - Rusty Wall - Brownstones - Dave Hollows & Hank Pasquil - 1977
V7 - Desert Island Arete (Low Start) - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8 - Bald Pate Superdirect - Ilkley - Andy Brown - 70s?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Haston - 1979
V11 -
V12 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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Bonjoy, what's this?
Rasputin's Caravan - Halfcross Crag, Bob Gilchrist 1986
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Found a great little article written by Pete Kirton. Well worth reading if you haven't seen it before:
Working Class (http://thenmc.org.uk/pages/newsletter/content/workingclass.htm)
Anyway, from a bouldering history point of view, Pete credits Phil Davidson with the first ascent of Working Class in 1985 - and he only graded it 6b!
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Well that was a good if depressing read. He'll have ment tech grade 6b which isn't that shocking.
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Bonjoy, what's this?
Rasputin's Caravan - Halfcross Crag, Bob Gilchrist 1986
The crowning achievement of a glittering climbing career. The souring overhanging grooveline is....
.... it was a piss take.
I'm not sure about Mistaken ID, the guide doesn't make it clear if it is boulderable or not.
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i've done blue light at attermire first time back in the 70s and theres noway i could climb v5 then.also pete eccles was one of my climbing mentors[he ran the youth club where my skinhead gang used to hang out].i dont think pete could climb v5 in1967 or when i used to climb with him.
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are you sure barley mow was'nt led.the crack looks like its had a peg runner or two in it and tony barley never would use pegs on grit.
well...
Barleymow - Without [a rope], according to the guide. Hints that it might have been done previously with aid from pegs (and calls it peg-scarred).
As for Blue Light, how hard do you think it is then?
...Fingers, I know he meant tech 6b - I still think that's pretty shocking considering it gets V11. Pete Kirton referred to it as "stabbing us with a contemptuous and shaming 6b grade" which I think says it all.
Here's an excerpt from another NMC article which I found amusing:
The Quest - mild very vegetated, 1O' 6"
Cliff Ullstrangthreshbarrow - Eastern Fells
First Ascent: R V Smith, J W Earl (Alt. leads)
Description: Laboriously ascend the dripping vegetation to the left of the clean rock with one tulip for aid.
....Was also wondering how hard Monoblock at Pex really is. V11 has been suggested and though it gets V10 in the guide this is just based on the fact it was previously graded uk 7a. Does anyone know anyone who actually climbed this problem? First ascent was possibly Phil Davidson, so judging by Working Clas, he was certainly capable of V11.
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As for Blue Light, how hard do you think it is then?
old school english 5c
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As for Blue Light, how hard do you think it is then?
old school english 5c
V5 then :lol:
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As for Blue Light, how hard do you think it is then?
old school english 5c
V5 then :lol:
maybe in the peak.
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We don't do V over here thankyouverymuch :roll:
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As for Blue Light, how hard do you think it is then?
old school english 5c
V5 then :lol:
maybe in the peak.
But it all depends which period of old skool... Most of the first 5cs were popping up in the late 40s and early 50s and were generally V2/hard V2. Maybe in the 60s 5cs got a lot harder before people finally resorted to the 6a grade? Or am I just talking nonsense? ;) Come on webbo, give it a V grade, none of this old skool just use the same number as everyone else stuff... :lol:
By the by, someone on ukc suggested that the start to Suzanne (E1 6a) at Stanage might be V4. Anyone know?
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maybe its new skool french 5c.
next time you are in yorkshire don't go to kilnsey/malham nip to attermire instead its worth the pilgrimage.take dense. if he thinks captain hooks bad he'll slash his wrists looking at blue light.
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Suzanne is about soft V3 i'd say.
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take dense. if he thinks captain hooks bad he'll slash his wrists looking at blue light
i do have strange tastes tho.
r-man do you ever read into things? take working class for instance, it's in the county on the most changeable rock on the planet. just cos it was "done" years ago doesn't mean it was done in the form it now takes. it certainly would not have been 8a, or the plus that it now gets, it probably at a wild stab in the dark have been english 6b
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r-man do you ever read into things? take working class for instance, it's in the county on the most changeable rock on the planet. just cos it was "done" years ago doesn't mean it was done in the form it now takes. it certainly would not have been 8a, or the plus that it now gets
Now look here you. I did consider that issue after all the fuss about Vienna, and I read around. Here's what I found out:
1.Some bloke off ukc asked if it had altered since Stickit, to which he was told no,it'sjust a lot harder than it looks:thread (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=115481)
Stickit was made mid 90s, so that's roughly a decade ago. If it hasn't changed in the last 10 years (when bouldering standards are higher and more people are likley to be trying it) there's no reason to assume it changed much in the previous 10 years.
2.Pete Kirton didn't appreciate the 6b grade that Phil Davidson gave it. Phil Davidson climbed it in 1985, a few years after Pete had done the whack/quality moves 8a sequence, as well as various other hard things, so it would be a bit odd if Pete hadn't managed a 6b problem.
3.In previous discussions about Vienna on this thread, it turned out that even Vienna hasn't changed that much - it was just the whack sequence that made it 8a.
4.A few people were certainly capable of climbing 8a mid 80s, so it's not really that suspicious.
It's apparently 8a+ for the sit-start, by the way, and 8a for the normal method. It's possible it was easier then, but on the evidence there's a lot going against it being just 6b. If it has got easier then I'm sure a local will pipe up.. Maybe Andy Harris will know...
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I was told that at some point in time the lay-away flake DEFINITLEY broke which although not altering the sequence, did make it harder.
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Ok Peak gurus, another suggestion from across the forum seas...Anyone care to suggest a V grade for Rat Scabies at Curbar, or is it too highball to be a highball?
And Janker's Groove at Frogatt, how hard is Whillan's direct start? (given uk 6b) I assume it's boulderable, as it's in the new guide, tho from a sitstart.
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am not saying at all that phil was not capable of climbing 8a. it does get 8a+ now anyway, so i hear. have you been to bowden? if it's not changed since stick it why did malc reclimb it n then the sit-start was added? as for it's 6b have you never heard of bursting peoples ego's etc. was it pete's style? in the working class passage he also says that the other guy was strong but was let down by weak fingers. you cannot ever climb 8a on a vertical wall with weak fingers, period.
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Vienna's changed loads over the years, I'm sure this has been pointed out a lot over the course of this thread.
Stick it was brought out in 2001, not the mid 90s
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r-man do you ever read into things? take working class for instance, it's in the county on the most changeable rock on the planet. just cos it was "done" years ago doesn't mean it was done in the form it now takes. it certainly would not have been 8a, or the plus that it now gets
Now look here you. I did consider that issue after all the fuss about Vienna, and I read around. Here's what I found out:
1.Some bloke off ukc asked if it had altered since Stickit, to which he was told no,it'sjust a lot harder than it looks:thread (http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=115481)
Stickit was made mid 90s, so that's roughly a decade ago. If it hasn't changed in the last 10 years (when bouldering standards are higher and more people are likley to be trying it) there's no reason to assume it changed much in the previous 10 years.
2.Pete Kirton didn't appreciate the 6b grade that Phil Davidson gave it. Phil Davidson climbed it in 1985, a few years after Pete had done the whack/quality moves 8a sequence, as well as various other hard things, so it would be a bit odd if Pete hadn't managed a 6b problem.
3.In previous discussions about Vienna on this thread, it turned out that even Vienna hasn't changed that much - it was just the whack sequence that made it 8a.
4.A few people were certainly capable of climbing 8a mid 80s, so it's not really that suspicious.
It's apparently 8a+ for the sit-start, by the way, and 8a for the normal method. It's possible it was easier then, but on the evidence there's a lot going against it being just 6b. If it has got easier then I'm sure a local will pipe up.. Maybe Andy Harris will know...
firstly i think stick it was made in '99, not mid 90s. Secondly the sidepull on working class has broken at least once (it apparenlty was orginally a crimpy flake ear) and also changes shape to be more positive at the back as it gets brushed to death. and i thought boon/smalc did the FA?
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davidson when 6b, moon when 8a, malc when 8a+
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Fair enough, so it has definitely got a lot harder. So it probably wasn't V11 then, though I doubt it was as easy as 6b (yes Dense, I think Phil was bursting Pete's ego, that was my point).
And no, I haven't been to Bowden. I'm not an expert on anything, just very interested. Despite all the info on the internet, it's actually quite hard to get an objective idea of many things. But as my secondary school teachers were always so fond of saying, if you don't know something, ASK - there are probably ten other people who don't know as well. Teachers eh, you gotta love em. Though only when you don't actually have to listen them any more.
Stick it was brought out in 2001
Yeah, got stickit mixed up with hard grit, which was released in a few years earlier. They both go together in my mind, though I guess in terms of bouldering quite a lot happened in those few years.
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Rat scabies - bogf standard uk 6b, unremarkable for the era.
Janker's groove - a whillans fist jam - 6a if you can jam, average boulderer will probably struggle and think 6b. Dunno when it was done - 50's? Would have been one of the hardest if it was, certainly harder than the joe's slab probs...
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Rat scabies - bogf standard uk 6b, unremarkable for the era.
Apparently done in the 70s by Gabe Regan, so not too shabby. But if it's around V5, then not ground-breaking.
Janker's groove - a whillans fist jam - 6a if you can jam, average boulderer will probably struggle and think 6b. Dunno when it was done - 50's? Would have been one of the hardest if it was, certainly harder than the joe's slab probs...
Gets 6b in the route guide. Joe did the route in 1948, is it likely that Whillans did it straight after after him? Anyway, is V4 fair, or is it easier? I'll put it in as V4 for now...
And I've left Barleymow in as a possible V6 - Apparently it does say in the guide that he soloed it, and if it's in the guide I'm guessing someone must be reasonably certain he did it.
Still no V1 - Apparently Leaning Buttress at Stanage was the first route to get a 5b grade (in 1922), so there must be boulder problems from around that time. Read this on ukc:
Also Helsby is an interesting one. They were doing hard stuff there in the late twenties. Not sure what they are graded at now though - at least 5b I think.
Any ideas TC?
And we still need a V11. As well as Monoblock, here are some possibles from Ru's list:
The Thing Sit Start
Sweet Thing
Left Sit Start Press
Work Hard
Full Power
Blind Drunk
Help the Young Sit Start
Brad Pit Sit Start
The Joker
Super Woman
Left Sit Start Bigger Splash Direct
Right Sit Start Press
Bohemian Groove
Little Pig
Blazing 48s
Westworld
I've already got rid of a few, but what else can I eliminate straightaway?
V0 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1895
V1 -
V2 - Spider Wall - Ilkley - ? - 1930's?
V3 - Crucifix Arete - Almscliff - Don Whillans - 1958
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V4 - Janker's Groove Direct - Frogatt - Don Whillans - 1948?
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse & Martin Boysen - 1971
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 - Barleymow - Almscliff - Tony Barley - 1966
V6 - Trackside - Curbar - Nicky Stokes - mid 70s?
V6 - Rusty Wall - Brownstones - Dave Hollows & Hank Pasquil - 1977
V7 - Desert Island Arete (Low Start) - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8 - Bald Pate Superdirect - Ilkley - Andy Brown - 70s?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Haston - 1979
V11 -
V12 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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nice job riceman
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I'd imagine Brad Pizz sitter could go off your list as it's relatively recent...
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the thing sitter is 8a+
work hard 8a+
little pig 7c+
blind drunk is a complete eliminate
blazing 48s n westworld were far b4 any of the other grit ones
don't know bout slimestone history
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Bohemian Groove
:lol:
some of the others are really recent. and most aren't V11.
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R-man, ignore that list on ropeless.de, it was one I did whilst getting info together for the guide, and most of it is wrong.
BUT
Superwoman is Superman, but the top move isn't eliminate (ie finish as for the Hulk), so maybe this is a non eliminate V11, done in 88?? Don't know for def, thats a guess.
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Cheers guys. So it seems the contenders are:
Westworld
Blazin 48s
Superman - 88?
Monoblock - early 80s - V10/11?
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>Blazin 48s
So named after a particularly strong and long lasting variant of LSD which had our erstwhile first ascentionist 'out of action' for a couple of days prior to the compltion of the problem....
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Westworld was done before Blazing 48's
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So named after a particularly strong and long lasting variant of LSD which had our erstwhile first ascentionist 'out of action' for a couple of days prior to the compltion of the problem....
Ho ho. In the guide I had it down as strong coffee. Don't know where that story came from though. Another amend for the 2nd edn...
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I presumed you were sanitising the facts for public consumption there Ru. Glad to hear you weren't.
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jankers groove is not v4 its a 5c/6a jammin problem as jonni says above.
rat scabies done in 1978 and its onlyv3/v4.
will you stop posting my comments on cocktalk my mother might read them.
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Well to be honest, it was Jon Barton that added that factoid, so maybe he was doing the public service bit. Will ask.
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So named after a particularly strong and long lasting variant of LSD which had our erstwhile first ascentionist 'out of action' for a couple of days prior to the compltion of the problem....
Ho ho. In the guide I had it down as strong coffee. Don't know where that story came from though. Another amend for the 2nd edn...
Nah, leave it as it is - reading between the lines an' all that.
Anyway, it's number 15 on the list of 20 secrets you get told when inducted into the Sheffield mafia :-) just before being told the answer to whether J****** was _really_ b***** by D***** G***
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So named after a particularly strong and long lasting variant of LSD which had our erstwhile first ascentionist 'out of action' for a couple of days prior to the compltion of the problem....
Ho ho. In the guide I had it down as strong coffee. Don't know where that story came from though. Another amend for the 2nd edn...
Nah, leave it as it is - reading between the lines an' all that.
Anyway, it's number 15 on the list of 20 secrets you get told when inducted into the Sheffield mafia :-) just before being told the answer to whether J****** was _really_ b***** by D***** G***
so were alot of other impressionable young men apparently.makes you wonder about his apprentices.
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jankers groove is not v4 its a 5c/6a jammin problem as jonni says above.
rat scabies done in 1978 and its onlyv3/v4.
Ok, so jankers groove maybe V3?
will you stop posting my comments on cocktalk my mother might read them.
:lol: They do seem tobe causing quite a stir. It's only fair I post back the response:
Not a great advert for ukb or the internet in general some acne-ridden teenager doubting well-documented ascents from the mid-1960's IMHO.
:roll: :lol:
You can always count on ukc. :wink:
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thought blazin 48s was a gun/western reference, what with it being on bulltholes and being next to westworld (westworld being a robot-based western theme park in the movie of the same name, who was the lead, yul brinner?).
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i've just rung my mother and she assures me i was'nt a spotty teenager.
it would take some doing spotting gabe regan on the first ascent of rat scabies in 1978 and still being a teenager.
got to dash need to pick my 12 year old daughter up from school.
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ahh but you could still be spotty... :lol:
Anyway:
V0 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1895
V1 -
V2 - Spider Wall - Ilkley - ? - 1930's?
V3 - Crucifix Arete - Almscliff - Don Whillans - 1958
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V3 - Janker's Groove Direct - Frogatt - Don Whillans - 1948?
V4 -
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse & Martin Boysen - 1971
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 70s?
V6 - Barleymow - Almscliff - Tony Barley - 1966
V6 - Trackside - Curbar - Nicky Stokes - mid 70s?
V6 - Rusty Wall - Brownstones - Dave Hollows & Hank Pasquil - 1977
V7 - Desert Island Arete (Low Start) - Earl Crag - ? - 60s/70s?
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 70s? (originally had better footholds)
V8 - Bald Pate Superdirect - Ilkley - Andy Brown - 70s?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Haston - 1979
V11 - Westworld - Burbage West - Jason Myers - ?
V11 - Superwoman - Crag X - ? - 1988?
V11 - Monoblock - Pex Hill - Phil Davidson/Joe Healy ? - early 80s
V12 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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thought blazin 48s was a gun/western reference, what with it being on bulltholes and being next to westworld (westworld being a robot-based western theme park in the movie of the same name, who was the lead, yul brinner?).
I used to think that too, reckoning that 48mm was the calibre of the tank bullets (except that they would be pre metric :roll:).
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tank rounds will almost certinaoly been in imperial, and those bulletmarks at burbage are not tank inflicted, tank rounds would have torn those boulders and blocks appart. They are much more likely to have been .303" calibre enfield rifle rounds fired by the home guard., probably from on top of carl wark or higgar. the 48 in blazin 48s is a reference to .48" calibre western revolvers i think.
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tank rounds will almost certinaoly been in imperial, and those bulletmarks at burbage are not tank inflicted, tank rounds would have torn those boulders and blocks appart. They are much more likely to have been .303" calibre enfield rifle rounds fired by the home guard., probably from on top of carl wark or higgar. the 48 in blazin 48s is a reference to .48" calibre western revolvers i think.
yeah dave
(http://quis.qub.ac.uk/hockey/images/lookalikey/kryton.JPG)
:wink:
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theres an old expression here which i think is particularly relevant:
"001101010010101011101110000111001011010111011011011001110111011100001011010101101".
think about it.
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off. off. on. on. off. on. .............................
oh, i see.
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6 minutes to find a piss take photo response, that's got to be some kind of record.
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Godd suggestion from ukc, though V5/6 was doubted:
FA. Tom Proctor, Geoff Birtles 1967. An awesomely impressive ascent for the time - the initial roof is probably a V5 or V6 boulder problem.
Any opinions on the V grade?
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Godd suggestion from ukc, though V5/6 was doubted:
FA. Tom Proctor, Geoff Birtles 1967. An awesomely impressive ascent for the time - the initial roof is probably a V5 or V6 boulder problem.
Any opinions on the V grade?
Don't quote me on this one, but I suspect a leg-up was used in '67 and an unaided ascent came much later...
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Anyway, it's number 15 on the list of 20 secrets you get told when inducted into the Sheffield mafia :-) just before being told the answer to whether J****** was _really_ b***** by D***** G***
So go on then - not being a member of said mafia, did D***** G*** b***** little J*****??
And what are the other 19 secrets?
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Anyway, it's number 15 on the list of 20 secrets you get told when inducted into the Sheffield mafia :-) just before being told the answer to whether J****** was _really_ b***** by D***** G***
So go on then - not being a member of said mafia, did D***** G*** b***** little J*****??
And what are the other 19 secrets?
I was excommunicated when I moved away in '96 so I don't know any more..
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More updates:
The 1989 Yorkshire Grit guide dates Bald Pate Superdirect as "circa 1980". The 1982 guide implies it was done after Desperate Dan, so later than 1979. Having seen Andy Brown on Midnight Lightening in 1981 I'm sure he was well capable of V8 on his own patch at that time. The 1989 guide attributes 'The problem start' of Desert Island Arete to Jerry Peel in 1978.
So Red Baron is now the best bet for V7.
Syrett's Roof was 1972.
So Beatnik now best bet for V5.
And Monoblock was Joe Healey.
V0 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1895
V1 -
V2 - Spider Wall - Ilkley - ? - 1930's?
V3 - Crucifix Arete - Almscliff - Don Whillans - 1958
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V3 - Janker's Groove Direct - Frogatt - Don Whillans - 1948?
V4 -
V5 - The Beatnik - Helsby - Al Rouse & Martin Boysen - 1971
V6 - Barleymow - Almscliff - Tony Barley - 1966
V6 - Trackside - Curbar - Nicky Stokes - mid 70s?
V6 - Rusty Wall - Brownstones - Dave Hollows & Hank Pasquil - 1977
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 1970s? (originally had better footholds)
V8 - Bald Pate Superdirect - Ilkley - Andy Brown - between 79 and 82?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Haston - 1979
V11 - Westworld - Burbage West - Jason Myers - ?
V11 - Superwoman - Crag X - ? - 1988?
V11 - Monoblock - Pex Hill - Joe Healy - early 80s?
V12 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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I think Westworld was done in about 94/95 ish, just before Jason published his Peak Plus guide.
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Ok, strike Westworld then - I assume even if Superwoman wasn't done in 88, it was probably still done a while before 94?
Another suggestion from ukc:
Re Rob Gawthorpe,
did he not do the first ascent of the back of the calf prob at Ilkley?A highball done sans mats in the early/mid 80s-v8 or 9?
Any ideas on name and grade?
And does anyone know anything else about the start to Our Father at Stoney?
FA. Tom Proctor, Geoff Birtles 1967. An awesomely impressive ascent for the time - the initial roof is probably a V5 or V6 boulder problem.
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And does anyone know anything else about the start to Our Father at Stoney?
yes. it isn't a boulder problem. :roll:
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...and it's certainly not V5/6.
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V5+?
:lol:
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V5, plus a pinch of salt : the correct grade for Standing loon Only of course.
(If 20 year old memories serve me right, Our Father would be about V3)
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In the book Welsh Rock there is a transcript of an event that took place in Helyg (a hut in Ogwen). O. G. Jones did a one armer with two fingers only whilst holding his mate. That's got to be V11 and was in the late 1900's I think.
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is beatnik really a problem.is it not a route both rouse and boysen both top roped it back in the days when men were men.has'nt it got easier as i remember that there was a report of a hold being chipped in late 70s or early 80s.
our father as si says is v3 tops.
the original problem on toms roof which uses all the holds is v6 and as i mentioned several pages ago was done in the 60s.
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In the book Welsh Rock there is a transcript of an event that took place in Helyg (a hut in Ogwen). O. G. Jones did a one armer with two fingers only whilst holding his mate. That's got to be V11 and was in the late 1900's I think.
This is the turn of last century equivalent of campus boarding. You also dont specify whether his mate is old speak for a friend, his lover or his cock.
Whichever way it's impressive, but equates to V13, V10 or V7 respectively, in modern money. But sadly all 3 ways are eliminates.
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These days taking live poultry into their huts would get you black balled the climbers club.
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These days taking live poultry into their huts would get you black balled the climbers club.
is that another thing D***** G*** did to J.D.
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is beatnik really a problem.is it not a route both rouse and boysen both top roped it back in the days when men were men.has'nt it got easier as i remember that there was a report of a hold being chipped in late 70s or early 80s.
our father as si says is v3 tops.
the original problem on toms roof which uses all the holds is v6 and as i mentioned several pages ago was done in the 60s.
Yeah I was wondering that about beatnik. It does seem a little high at 14m. Syrett's Roof was done in 72, so that would go in instead.
So Tom's original definitely isn't an eliminate? I'm confused as it's a numbered holds problem in the guide...
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Anyone know anything about this:
Re Rob Gawthorpe,
did he not do the first ascent of the back of the calf prob at Ilkley?A highball done sans mats in the early/mid 80s-v8 or 9?
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Ilkley prob is Bernie the Bolt, v8 ish, done 1985, Rob Gawthorpe
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Cheers. Probably not the first V8 then, but the only one we have a definite date for so far.
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have we ruled out westside story, scoop de grace, sole power etc?
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Yep.
Sole Power - V9 - 83 (a year later than Central wall direct)
Scoop de Grace - V9 - 87
Westside - 85, though I guess if this is V8, it goes down with Bernie the Bolt as good but probably not the first.
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WSS is V9.
Is central wall direct really a boulder problem or is it just the start of a route which was done as part of a trad lead and has never been considered a boulder problem? Many sections of climbs are given hypothetical V grades by various pundits but this does not make them boulder problems. To my mind including such pseudo problems whilst excluding classic eliminates seems back to front and not a true reflection of the development of the bouldering ethos.
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well said that man.
or insect
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So Tom's original definitely isn't an eliminate? I'm confused as it's a numbered holds problem in the guide...
Nope, it's not really an eliminate but the holds are numbered in the guides so it's easier to figure out if you get my drift....
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the holds are numbered so you can miss them out to make it harder than the original.
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So named after a particularly strong and long lasting variant of LSD which had our erstwhile first ascentionist 'out of action' for a couple of days prior to the compltion of the problem....
Actually it was Sean Myles who suffered the said Blazin 48.
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So named after a particularly strong and long lasting variant of LSD which had our erstwhile first ascentionist 'out of action' for a couple of days prior to the compltion of the problem....
Actually it was Sean Myles who suffered the said Blazin 48.
You're quite right G. Jerry should sue me for be-smirching his fine and upstanding character.. IIRC Sean was stuck in Jerry's house for the duration of the alleged incident
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Ok, so Tom's Original is in - was it done by Tom or was it more of a Tom and friends thing?
Is central wall direct really a boulder problem or is it just the start of a route which was done as part of a trad lead and has never been considered a boulder problem?
I dunno. The rockfax description says
The thread above the left-hand side of the roof can be reached by three methods. 1) Use a stick to clip the thread and haul up to it - A0. 2) Traverse in from either of the previous three routes - 6b. 3) Climb direct via some painful and small pockets - V9 at least!
And the direct was done about 20 years after the aid method, which maybe suggests it was a problem rather than a route? Really need someone who knows the problem to give an opinion...
Many sections of climbs are given hypothetical V grades by various pundits but this does not make them boulder problems. To my mind including such pseudo problems whilst excluding classic eliminates seems back to front and not a true reflection of the development of the bouldering ethos.
Hmm, but the development of the bouldering ethos is also partly a progression from climbing routes - one step of which was to add hard starts to existing routes. Sure, if someone says the crux of a climb was V5, but is only using that as a way to describe part of the climbing then it's not really a boulder problem. But a lot of people were climbing hard starts and just not thinking of them as we would; as boulder problems. I think we should recognise them as bouldering problems if that's what they are to us.
As for eliminates, I see where you're coming from but I'm not convinced. It takes a lot more vision and effort to climb something where you don't artifically create the moves but have to first work out what moves are actually possible, as well as which holds to use and which to ignore. Although some classic eliminates might be significant in terms of progress, I still think they are only significant in terms of progressing towards being able to climb at that standard on the more unpredictable challenges of "pure" lines.
So I guess I'm saying that I reckon it's easier to be the first to climb an eliminate of the same grade as a non-eliminate, because you can pick moves that suit you, whereas with a natural line you have to work a lot harder and with the knowledge that it might not even be possible.
V0 - The Crack pictured in the Yorkshire Grit Guide? - Simon's Seat - ? - 1895
V1 -
V2 - Spider Wall - Ilkley - ? - 1930's?
V3 - Crucifix Arete - Almscliff - Don Whillans - 1958
V3 - Wall of Horrors Direct Start - Almscliff - Joe Brown (onsight) - 1950s?
V3 - Janker's Groove Direct - Frogatt - Don Whillans - 1948?
V4 -
V5 - Syretts roof - Almscliff - John Syrett - early 1972
V6 - Tom's Original - Stoney Middleton - Tom Proctor ? - 1960s?
V6 - Barleymow - Almscliff - Tony Barley - 1966
V7 - Red Baron - Shipley Glen - Mike Hammil - 1976
V8 - Jerry's Arete - Bridestones - Jerry Peel - 1970s? (originally had better footholds)
V8 - Bald Pate Superdirect - Ilkley - Andy Brown - early 80s?
V9 - Cental Wall Direct - Dib Scar - Rob Gawthorpe - 1982
V10 - Haston Problem - The Breck - Stevie Haston - 1979
V11 - Superwoman - Crag X - ? - 1988?
V11 - Monoblock - Pex Hill - Joe Healy - early 80s
V12 - Careless Torque - Stanage - Ron Fawcett - 1987
V13 - Isla de Enchanta - Trowbarrow - John Gaskins - 1999
V14 - Kaizen - Woodwell - John Gaskins - 2001
V15 - Walk Away ss - Fairysteps - John Gaskins - 2002
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toms roof was done by tom.he was probably the only one intrested in this sort of thing at that time.
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By classic Eliminate I mean something like a good line with ledge which if used makes the problem dull and easy. In such a case to do without has it's own intrinsic logic and is the best way to climb the line, this is all part of bouldering IMO. In such a case you could hardly be accused of contriving or pick and mixing to make a prob that suits your strengths.
Sure, if someone says the crux of a climb was V5, but is only using that as a way to describe part of the climbing then it's not really a boulder problem. But a lot of people were climbing hard starts and just not thinking of them as we would; as boulder problems. I think we should recognise them as bouldering problems if that's what they are to us.
So sections of climbs are to be included or excluded from a history of bouldering based on how good the landing is? You could have a V9 bouldery start to a jug above a wide ledge 3 pitches up a scottish mountain route, would this count. In other words, what exactly are your inclusion/exclusion criteria?
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re central wall is'nt the thread quite high up.i remember aiding it in my youth and we had major problems getting to it.i've also done the poor mans free version and i think this took combined tactices and a stick clip.
but i might be confusing the two.
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By classic Eliminate I mean something like a good line with ledge which if used makes the problem dull and easy. In such a case to do without has it's own intrinsic logic and is the best way to climb the line, this is all part of bouldering IMO. In such a case you could hardly be accused of contriving or pick and mixing to make a prob that suits your strengths.
So you are saying that only certain types of eliminates should be considered. Those where you eliminate good holds rather than pick bad ones? You might be right that this negates contrived problems, but I still think that natural lines are so much more inspiring and for that reason alone (though I'm sure I could think of others) I would prefer not to see eliminates on the list. But for the sake of argument, which eliminates would you like to see in the list?
So sections of climbs are to be included or excluded from a history of bouldering based on how good the landing is? You could have a V9 bouldery start to a jug above a wide ledge 3 pitches up a scottish mountain route, would this count. In other words, what exactly are your inclusion/exclusion criteria?
I think maybe you're complicating the issue. Do you actually know of any V9s on a big ledge 3 pitches up? That would certainly be a memorable problem. :8) I was just talking about when people say things like, "it's 5b climbing to a good hold, then a V5 crux on small edges, then easy jamming to finish" - which clearly isn't a bouldering problem. Surely a boulder problem is a boulder problem in the same way that a V9 is a V9 - general consensus. If most people would do it as a boulder problem then a boulder problem it is...
...and the obvious distinction between route and problem would be whether or not you can fall off it safely, given pads and spotters. Of course there are going to be grey areas, but that's why general consensus is the key.
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To be honest I can't remember which probs have been excluded (this is page 19!). But examples of conceptually clean eliminates are things such as Blind Drunk, lots of most of the probs on Kudos wall at Rubicon, Piss.
My point re exclusion criteria relates to this. What is it supposed to be a list of? Is it a list of historically significant first bouldering ascents, in which case eliminates ARE part of this history, but starts to route which you can't do as probs without a mat AREN'T because they have only become boulder probs with a change in climbing technology and outlook. Or is a list of the first pure and proper boulder probs at each grade, in which case half routes should at the least be worthy of a boulderers attention to be listed ie not a lone prob on a crag you would never bring a pad to, finishing on a good hold from where you can jump or trav off and having a good landing.
Both rely on arbitary selection, but at least the first can claim to be a history of people bouldering.
Anyway, i'm only bothering to argue the toss on such tedious hairslittery cos i am very bored at work. :roll:
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isn't syrett's roof v6?
why is the list in v grades?
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yes, why is the list in V grades?
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Bonjoy, I'm not so sure that isolated problems aren't worthy of a boulderer's attention. If it's a good problem, it can occupy a whole day. But I think you might be right about eliminates - although you wouldn't see them in an American hall of fame (correct me if I'm wrong there), this is the uk we're talking about, and maybe the fact that eliminates are a large part of our bouldering culture and history ought to be recognised.
I could be opening a big can of worms then, but go on, what eliminates should be on the list? We've ignored ALL eliminates so far, so any that you can think of are fair game.
isn't syrett's roof v6?
It gets V5 in yorkshiregrit.com - and I thought someone argued it down from V7 in the guide to V5? Though I really can't remember anymore.
why is the list in v grades?
Cos it started off as being a comparison with the planetfear world list, which is in V grades (the list was half french, half american, though they probably went off John Gill's site). Can't see that it really matters though, they're both (equally?) popular in the uk.
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that doesn't make it right tho. ball's to eliminates, this list is shit enough as it is without 20 more pages of drivel
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Dense, I recommend you take a couple of these every morning :lol:
(http://www.northshorelij.com/images/cancer/happy-pills.jpg)
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yes, why is the list in V grades?
yes yes, why is the list in V grades? ALong a similar line, why are panton's bits in climber covering peak problems always in V-grades? naughty boy simon, spreading that old V-grade propaganda eh.......? :wink:
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We can all convert between Font and V, so who really cares?
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Propaganda? What me? Surely not?
Sorry to debunk yer conspiracy theory Dave, but about 3-4 years ago, Bernard (editor of Climber) asked me to simplify/streamline the grades that I used in the Bouldering Scene column, primarily to reduce confusion, but also to save on space. At the time I used both V and Font grades (with translations, so that folk unfamiliar with either system could get their heads around the relative difficulty). In the end I went with V grades, because, at the time that system seemed to be the most popular across the country.
I'll shift (lock, stock and barrel) to Font grades, if the next Yorkshire guide does. (assuming all other variables remain constant...)
Bubba - that's a good point well made (and you've saved me saying it).
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We can all convert between Font and V, so who really cares?
I can't. Most of the places I have bouldered extensively (US, SW, Yorkshire) have all used V grades. Grades in Font all seem hard, and I haven't bouldered that extensively up here yet (and besides Stone Country uses V too).
Yeah, I know I'm thick.
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http://www.rockfax.com/publications/bgrades.html?
Now you can!
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the picture that some guy took of bonjoy that's in climber this month is captioned first as V9 and later, due to an error, as 7c. interesting...
i'm with dense i reckon. i'll work out why later.
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looks like its bernard's bad then! I bet he wouldn't do an article about fontainebleau in v-grades.
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Dense, I recommend you take a couple of these every morning
i think i'm goin to start needing to if this thread carries on, but i can't resist the need to find out how many times r-mans goin to post the full list up :lol:
i'm with dense i reckon. i'll work out why later.
everyone is sooner or later, whether they like it or not. i'm a bit like the dark side
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http://www.rockfax.com/publications/bgrades.html?
Now you can!
Aye, I've got that. Printed. And stuck in the front of all my guides. what I meant was I can't instantly convert from one to the other, and have a clear idea of how difficult something is when someone says how hard it is in font grades, like I can with SA, US, UK climbing grades. Give or take a regional variation or two.