UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => shootin' the shit => Topic started by: monkey boy on October 09, 2006, 04:16:09 pm
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Hello,
I am doing my uni dissertation on climbing shoes, I have to do back ground and history on them before testing etc. Was just wondering if anyone could help with good websites or books that will give a kind of timeline of the climbing shoe? For example when hobnails were invented, when proper climbing shoes first came out, when velcro's and slippers were first introduced.
Any help be awesome
Thanks
David
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i had a pair of worn PA climbing shoes given to me in 1960 and i think at the time they were the only rock shoe about ,all the rest were clogs ,i cant believe someone hasn't allready looked into climbing boot history,
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Cheers
I am sure they have, i am not really focussing on the history its just sort of an intro to the whole testing of shoes etc! Thanks for the knowledge!
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There is a good section on the history of climbing boots in "Rock climbing in Britain" by David Jones (1984) which I can bring up to leeds tomorrow if you want. The Ron Fawcett book has a section on boots I think.
D
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www.johngill.net
John Gills website has quite a bit of history stuff on it....
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The first proper rock boot was the 'PA' designed by Font maestro Pierre Allain. By the 1950s it looked like a red suede and black canvas version of the famous EB. A bit before my time.
The similarity in design to the EB was no coincidence. Edmond Bourdonneau originally made shoes for Pierre Allain, then set up on his own. From the 1960s – 1980, the EB Super Gratton was the only shoe to wear for high-standard rock climbing. See any classic 1970s photo. It's hard to imagine, but shops sold nothing else. Good feel, good edging, and, once worn a little, an excellent thin-crack boot. Shocking friction by today's standards but some pretty terrifying grit slab climbing was done in these.
(http://www.eb-france.com/historique/super-gratton.jpg)
There were occasional competitors but none approached the standard to the mighty EB and were swiftly crushed underfoot.
Around 1980, Bourdonneau switched to a moulded rubber sole to speed-up production. A marketing move even more disastrous than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke. They were completely shit! Their bulbous toes had a huge void which meant they had as much feeling as a durex extra-safe and the vulcanised rubber was even slicker. Desperate climbers drove around the country buying multiples of remaining stock in their size. Competitors rushed to fill the void. Amongst several new kids on the block were….
c1980. Asolo Chouinard Canyons. A tasteful denim blue as you might expect from Mr. Patagucci. These were OK, no actually they were pretty rubbish. The friction was slightly better than EBs but they were pretty clumpy. Some of us lead E5 in them though.
c1979-1981. Galibier Contacts - came in both high and low top versions. Advanced design: the first ever 'shoe' as opposed to boot and high wrap-around rubber. Excellent friction for their day, but not terribly sensitive and not great edging. Popular in the 'states for padding up low-angle slabs but never really caught on in the UK.
c1982. Hanwag Crack Specials – the red suede and yellow nylon coordinated beautifully with a pair of yellow Ron Hills. Beautifully made, very comfy, reassuringly expensive. Ron wore them in a very early boot sponsorship deal. Ironically they were rubbish on cracks, but OK for edging.
1982. Boreal Fires – prototypes were available earlier but fiercely guarded. The biggest single breakthrough in rock boots. The design was pretty conventional – grey suede high-top but the sticky rubber…Grit E6 slabs became piss-easy overnight! (well, relatively)
(http://www.boreal-club.com/Archivos%20comunes/Imagenes/empresa/modelos/modelos/1980/fire.jpg)
For two or three years, Fires were as ubiquitous as EBs had been before them, but the pack closed in quickly as other manufacturers started to cook their rubber.
Asolo Run-outs, Calima Lince, Sportiva Megas, the rise of 5.10 Stealth: others can carry on from here.
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thanks thats filled a few gaps in my failing memory and sadly made me feel older, still the PA was a boot from outer space at the time
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i had a pair of hawkins masters and a pair of r.d's.the latter were named after some aussie climber.the friction on the them was so shite they were impossible to wear out.this was before i got my first pair of e.b's.
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Monkey boy, I'm sure that if you go to some of the climbing shoe websites; Boreal, etc, they have a history of the company.
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7lbs overweight gives an excellent summary, especially of the EB debacle - which is surely relevant to you if you are interested in quality/testing issues. What sort of degree are you doing? I started out in 1978 and was desperate for a pair of EBs from the very first day I went - partly because everyone wore them, partly because there was nothing else and partly because they did actually seem really good. I got a pair through the post from Alpine Sports (another interesting business history lesson in commercial hubris) for, I think, £10. You should probably read Invisible on Everest by Mary Rose and Mike Parsons, may not be anything on boots but would give a useful academic framework for looking at innovation in the outdoor equipment industry.. One thing it looks at is how adaptations occur from the ground up. For instance in Stoke in the early 80s me, Al and Nick Dixon were cutting boots down to below the ankle (as I'm sure other were elsewhere, there's a classic 70s photo of John Long at Tahquitz or somewhere in cut down EBs) before we were aware any 'shoes' had appeared on the market.
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I have a pair of Hawkins rockhoppers in a size 7 in my cupboard if any wants to find out how shit they are/were
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Cheers guys its helping a lot. Just the kind of thing i need. Just got to put it all together now and link to more modern day stuff for the intro.
I am doing sports science with outdoor activities which means i do performance textiles, pretty good course really.
Anymore info would be greatly appreciated and let me no if anyone wants to know how the end result of project turns out not that it will be finished till about april.
David
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Another plea for help from climbers who were pulling in the 80's and early 90's! My climbing shoe history is in detail up to the Berol Fires and Scarpa Cragratz, about 82!
I think i can cover from the late 90's on but there really isnt much on websites about history of shoes.
Was interested especially in the Boreal ninjas as these were the first slippers? I think! And other break through shoes.
Help would be great :thumbsup:
cheers
david
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Before 5.10 were 3.10 they were known as Vertical (only the rubber was called 5.10) They gad a green-grey boot out in '88, followed by a pink boot/blue shoe (can't remember the names). AFAIK the Ninja was thje first slipper, but the biggest breakthrough shoe was The Asolo Runout which set the tone for everything that followed.
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Craig Smith was telling me an interesting story on the way to the crag the other day. Craig was one of the early climbers to secure lots of sponsorship deals and work closely with manufacturers. Anyway he was telling me about how he asked a friend who was good at sewing to rip the elasic out of some Ninjas, sew some leather round the horseshoe shaped hole, then punch and thread to make a laced Ninja. These worked really well and he showed them to Boreal who shortly after produced the (Spirit?) forerunner to the Laser. I think that's the story but I can check with Craig and get the full details.
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I thought Jerry had a hand in the laser design? Wasn't he so impressed by the fires he invested heavily in the then small company, designed the laser which took over the world, and set Jerry on the path to being a self-made millionaire with a porsche and medal-nestling-in-chestwig combo?
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These worked really well and he showed them to Boreal who shortly after produced the (Spirit?) forerunner to the Laser. I think that's the story but I can check with Craig and get the full details.
The Sprints were the forerunner of the Laser, came in two varietys labelled Sprint 1 and Sprint 2. The 1's had a carbon fibre insert that made them stiffer than Ron Jeremy and usless for anything but Slate. The 2's were much softer and great for the Grit. Just after that time there was the La Sportiva Tao (all veggie boot, black so very sweaty in the sun) which was the best seller for a couple of years IIRC, then 5.10's introduced the world to the anazai (mid 90's for the lace-up, velcro and moccasyms?), and things have never been the same since
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Don't forget the La Sportiva Megas (oops, just seen that these have been mentioned), which were very popular right at the end of the 80s.
Scarpa had a red and blue high top, I think called Superatz that were very much an 80s boot, then they refined them with a blue and yellow version which I remember Andy Pollitt used to wear (see front cover of Gogarth guide). In fact if you can get hold of any of the Pollitt posters from the 80s you'll get a good idea of rock boot development. Look in Extreme Rock and David Jones' Rock Climbing in Britain book too for 80s footwear.
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Were the Mega's those purple and green super stiff things as advertised by Andy Pollitt on that rather controversial LPT route? What were the blue and yellow La Sportiva lace-up's called that appeared shortly afterwards called? I remember them being rather popular as well.
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Kendos? As I remember they dominated they early nineties comp scene
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Hello folks, long time lurker, first time post...
My first pair of boots were the very Fires pictured in the Ron book. £25 from Outside bargain bin, with the promise of some Ron magic FOC. The magic never turned up! They are in my garage sporting the Collegiate Crescent low cut look, complete with felt tip racing stripes... it was a crime and I'm guilty as sin.
Unable to fit into the great looking Megas vicious heel cup, I settled for Boreal Jazz (Nice!) Hatefull things. They are in the garage.
Ninjas looked like the biz but the early model had a very low rand, the suede went through in days. Rock and run had some new ones with a higher rand and kindly upgraded mine. This saw me rocket through the grades from 5b to 5c! I still have them in my garage.
Maybe...the Ninjas were the first climbing product specifically aimed at bouldering? What was the difference between the red ones and the green ones? Anyhow, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am crap at throwing stuff away and anyone breaking into my garage will be sorely dissapointed!
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Awesome guys keep it coming, its all helpful! Need to try and get a good mark for this. I have looked in Rock climbing in Britain it only covers the period till the fires!
If anyone has any cool pictures from any decades that a shoe can be well seen in i would appreciate a few to go with the words, so if you can be bothered just PM me them.
Thanks again
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Kendos? As I remember they dominated they early nineties comp scene
That's the ones, very soft lace-up, lots off feel. Your right about them dominating the comp scene around that time as well.
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Purple and green stiff things were Scarpa Rockmasters, which were preceded by the Rock Star (yellow and blue). both very well made but very stiff. Asolo slowly lost market share after the green runout, with first the orange runout and then the horrible Kevlar runout (yellow and burgundy!). Also they had a brace of more technical lace-ups in 2 version (one stiff and one soft - like the Boreal Sprints) but their names have temporarily escaped me.
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Purple and green stiff things were Scarpa Rockmasters, which were preceded by the Rock Star (yellow and blue). both very well made but very stiff. Asolo slowly lost market share after the green runout, with first the orange runout and then the horrible Kevlar runout (yellow and burgundy!). Also they had a brace of more technical lace-ups in 2 version (one stiff and one soft - like the Boreal Sprints) but their names have temporarily escaped me.
I remember those Asolo's, they came in a green colour (stiff) and yellow (soft). Crap heel IIRC, can't think of the names either :-\
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Scarpa SL's. I think the sreen (stiff) version was the SL1, the yellow (soft) version the SL2.
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the SL2.
that's right - 'on a ragga tip' no less :whistle:
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I am bringing this subject back to life as i need more help. Have been doing other bits of my dissertation and so have neglected my history into shoes.
I am up to the mid 80's and really want to know about the ground breaking ideas up to present day. When did the first slipper come out, which company started to design boots for heel hooking etc.
Again any pictures would be brilliant and as much info ass possible.
Cheers
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Boreal was the company of the 80s.
Everyone owned Fires.
Then Everyone owned Lasers
Then everyone got Vectors, except the ones with the crap rubber.
Bambas were rubbish.
I think Ninjas were the first slippers.
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Just a quick question. Did the company who made Fires in the 80's, Berol then go on to become Boreal? Or are they both different companies?
Thanks
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As far as I know, it was always Boreal that made the Fires (pronounced Fee-ray, with a little dash above the e).
Definitely had the little spiral with deer in the middle logo.
I could find you a pair if you want. Good money.
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Cheers, they must of changed their name cause i have read in books that berol made the fires. Oh well hopefully the marker wont know and it will all be fine.
Thanks for the offer of the boots but have enough for testing already.
Cheers
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I moved house on Thursday and threw out my old Fires, Lasers, Vectors and Bambas, I hope they weren't worth anything :greed: If you watch Stone Monkey he has the blue Fire type boots on, can't remember their names though, but it definitely looks like he's worn his heel out on them, that's gotta be hard work!
What I did notice was that Fires wore out properly, i.e. gradually unlike modern shoes which one day are fine, the next day the rubber starts to feel a bit crap and soft and then your toe rips through and the boot is instantly useless!
I also had some 5.10 Vertick and some purple and blue 5.10's too, can't remember the name though- lynx's perhaps....
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If you watch Stone Monkey he has the blue Fire type boots on, can't remember their names though, but it definitely looks like he's worn his heel out on them, that's gotta be hard work!
Were these called Ballets?
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Yeah, think that's right..
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Monkey Boy-
A potential point in the more recent history of climbing shoes, could be the development of radically bent last, toe down style shoes, a version of which is now made by most manufacturers (were stingers first), but is really only used for certain types of route/ problem (eg. steep with footholds which are hooked rather than smearing). This raises issues of developing boots for ever more specific moves.
Just an idea.
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OK,
you said you wanted more info!
the blue ones were ballet 2s...
the ballet 1s were just clumpy fires.
the first slipper was the blue ninja. released in mainland europe june 1987... near no stiffner in the sole ( unlike the green, and the red it made to this day- kids sizes) - i got some from germany... 1st ones in the UK arrived a few months later.... first advert was bachar toeing into some pockets with the speech "the ninja's gonna make some climbs a lot easier!"
the rockmasters from scarpa... with the insole ripped out... were the true dogs. very heavy marketing campaign with pollitt, gore and atkinson to try to oust the other sheffield boot sponsored heros of moffatt and moon. as now scarpa made quality shoes... that you can climb in... not pieces of shite uppers moulded onto *this year's* rubber..
megas arrived before asolos... initally the Glowvaz (sp) signature shoe... were utterlly shite IMO expt for the rather trendy slate at the time - totally stiff!!, yet poor ankle suport, weird... i had at least 2 pairs.
it was the buoux easter pilgrimage the nxt year that saw the rise of the asolo runnout (the green one).... all these foreigners were prancing about in them..... for the UK leech and then i think tony mitchell being the sponsored boys at some point in the shoe's all too short career.
god knows when 5.10 then arrived.... looked crap compared to european styling.... remember jason muttering a lot about rubber.... and *memory... very sticky... shoes dont crimple you with the stretching in period... last ages...*
10 yrs on the anastazi lace has it's just has it's first full on upgrade, even then the new greens have the same profile and near as last... the all important toe shape is left unchanged.... thank God. heel may even work now... which would be nice.
red chilli entered the arena at the zenith of the 5.10 monopoly. They got Outside onside, nicked moon off boreal & i think glowvaz has a share in the business. as this time boreal rubber quality was open to debate... certainly was very variable. Competitive prices saw red chilli succeed.
But, despite the fickel nature of rock boot purchases by me over a 28 yr period... what i want to know is: is 5.10 still the best toe and the best rubber?? if so, they will by default be the market leader. it's a niche market that people will buy what works best, within reason price is not an issue. dont get me wrong - i do and will own other boots than 5.10, by some perverse logic that i cant understand... but for nigh on a decade 5.10 have been at the top. If the supply issues are now sorted they will reign for a good while i suggest.
is that the kind of info you wanted??
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That little summation sounds awesome, actually probably a little too detailed for me but bits will be used thanks. I have just finished the history bit, or the first draft anyway. Done through from the EB's to Fires and other boreals and onto the monopoly of the market by five ten.
I just wanted a rough over view for the reader.
Andy B- I am putting in all about the down turned revolution in another part and the fact that most companies now make pretty similar shoes in the technology states. Doing my rubber friction testing on Thursday so will let people now how different boots fair.
Thanks for all the help guys :great:
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If you watch Stone Monkey he has the blue Fire type boots on, can't remember their names though, but it definitely looks like he's worn his heel out on them, that's gotta be hard work!
Were these called Ballets?
Yup, point came up recently in Old Skool thread. the shoe version was the "Jazz".
Monkey boy, I think fatdoc needs wadding for that essay.
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Where do Sportiva fit in the boreal -> 5.10 -> Red Chilli progression? Haven't they ever been major players / innovators? I was under the impression that the Testarossa and Mirage were fairly "important" shoes. You also see a surprising number of climbers wearing incredibly ancient looking pairs of those orange slippers (cobras?) and their comfy all day trad shoes (especially the ankle high ones) so presumably they filled a niche at some time?
I guess rock type has an important part to play in all this too. Maybe any low public consciousness / uptake of a particular brand in the UK is due to a low suitability for grit? I suppose re Sportiva a lot of their best shoes are quite stiff and edgy - leading to then being more prevalent in the US - in virtually every US mag photo I see of people in Yosemite etc people seem to be wearing Miuras / Katanas.
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The important Sportivas were the Kendos (blue/yellow/pink) and the ones before them that were made of black leather and not suede. Most of the top Euros that weren't in Boreals seemed to have these.
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The Sportiva Mythos seems to be the Yosemite shoe, and i think it was the most popular shoe in the states for some time. I think they're good for cracks as they have a low toe profile. It was odd in Yosemite that about 80% of people were wearing sportiva, and they were substantially cheaper than 5.10, even though5.10 are made just down the road.
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The first down pointing toe shoe was the Mirage by La Sportiva was it not? Ideal for End of the Affair if I remember correctly. As was a vest.
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The important Sportivas were the Kendos (blue/yellow/pink) and the ones before them that were made of black leather and not suede. Most of the top Euros that weren't in Boreals seemed to have these.
Wasn't the Black one the Sportiva Tao? First fully synthetic shoe (ie no cow bits?).
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Didnt no how to do waddage, but think i just did it! Cheers Fat doc
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The first down pointing toe shoe was the Mirage by La Sportiva was it not? Ideal for End of the Affair if I remember correctly. As was a vest.
Cheers, I was sure sportiva were responible for something significant. I think their target markets must generally require edgy / pocket-loving shoes - leading to more of a presense on Yosemite micro-edging stuff and euro limestone than in the UK. Although I vaguely recall someone saying that when Miuras arrived they instantly made slate routes a grade or two easier, and I always see more pairs when I venture away from grit and into the Lakes etc basicially anywhere less "smeary".
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*blushes* at waddage... ta.
right, more old git ramblings -i'm enjoying this-
tao were indeed the synthetic slightly down turned -no stretch ever- black sportivas. they bagged a bit though, the total lack of breathablity caused a few comments by the catwalk posse back in the day - i never had a pair but my mates had them. they rotted... nice.
i agree that the popularity, or that percieved on this thread, of sportiva may well be biased by how good a boot is on grit.
kendos were made cool by gresham, malcolm and stuart being given them to wear in comps, on guidebook covers etc.. i wore them a fair bit on yorks lime, had to be awful tight to work, as little support and a box toe. they worked though.
it was megas that made slate easy (er)....
something else has come to mind here....
i boulder... near solely in the peak at the mo... i see the same faces both out and indoors.. the 5.10 ( with a splash of red chilli admittedly) dominance is indeed true in my eyes. But as > 90% of the UK climbing public do more *normal* climbing I reckon you should get down to pembroke / over to tremadog and idwal to see what really sells to the masses. I doubt it's V10s....
BTW, i'm gagging for the results of yr friction test..
esp as I have just gone retro on 5.10 velcros (blue ones cos they fit me better than the *male* version) - stealth C4 not the nu stuff.. ? called onyx is alledgely 16% stickyer but harder and takes more to bed in...
i'm seriously considering new scarpa velcros - with their funky inturns and downward pointy wierdness - over new green lace ups for the summer..... rubber comparision would be v interestin.. you could get a sample of the nu scarpa range from the works (probably)
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i'm seriously considering new scarpa velcros - with their funky inturns and downward pointy wierdness - over new green lace ups for the summer..... rubber comparision would be v interestin.. you could get a sample of the nu scarpa range from the works (probably)
I have noticed that Scarpa Vision velcros have a pronounced presence amongst the hard-bouldering folk at the Sunderland Wall... although this could be some sort of Andy Earl freebie factor rather than any superiority for Northumbrian rock.
Currently wearing in a pair of Onyx soled Anasazi velcros (not worn 5.10s before) that are quite nice but I haven't noticed any spectacular frictiony miracles and I still find myself reaching for my Sportiva Venoms when the going gets tough (admittedly more of a "fit" thing than rubber). I seem to remember someone (Ru?) going to quite some lengths to compare Onyx with stealth when the Gallileo's first came out - a search the forum should turn it up.
On another incredibly nerdy shoe point, I notice in their catalogue that Sportiva Venoms seemingly alone in their range use something called XSGrip rubber rather than the XSV that's on all of their other shoes (including their other "performance slipper" the Viper). Just seems a bit strange - I wonder whether it's an "experimental" compound that they plan to extend across the range if sucessful - like 5.10 have done with Onyx: first on trial on the gallileo, then when they were were sure it didn't cause peoples feet to set on fire / farm animals to be still-born, extended to the Anasazi velcro...
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when hobnails were invented
The earliest reference to hobnails that Ive ever seen is on the first recorded ascent of Cloggy. Look at the wikipedia entry for cloggy and youll find a reference from 1798 where one of the ascencionists wore hobnails.
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When did they start wearing Hobnobs?
As a continuation of the Boreal story, I reckon that the crap rubber on a lot of the Vectors, and then the release of the Bamba (generally agreed to not be great) killed their market dominance and tarnished their reputation. Before that the Fire, the Ballet, the Ace (debatable), the Ninja and the Laser were probably the most popular rock shoes by miles.
Just a theory mind.
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historical fill-in detail:
what was it dawes wore on the very big and the very small?
my mind subconciously threw up "lince's"..?
boreal did a lined fire, suitable for wearing under one-sport mountain boots
they also supplied the short lived "ron fawcett" red and white boot, a great big floppy flipper of (sticky) rubber
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BTW, i'm gagging for the results of yr friction test..
esp as I have just gone retro on 5.10 velcros (blue ones cos they fit me better than the *male* version) - stealth C4 not the nu stuff.. ? called onyx is alledgely 16% stickyer but harder and takes more to bed in...
i'm seriously considering new scarpa velcros - with their funky inturns and downward pointy wierdness - over new green lace ups for the summer..... rubber comparision would be v interestin.. you could get a sample of the nu scarpa range from the works (probably)
Doing the friction tests on wednesday on limestone, grit, sandstone and maybe granite. So should be able to let you know soon.
I am testing a pair of chili, boreal, 5.10, mad rocks, sportivas, evolv and montrail. Dont have any scarpas to test and cant ask the works cause i am in leeds. If anyone has an old pair of scarpas, not too smelly and fancies contributing them to the test that would be great. I know its very short notice!
The boots unfortunately are all varied ages, some have been used more than others so that may affect results but i am looking for the relative scores between each companies shoes.
Will be comparing results to what companies say about their boots as well!
Cheers
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Not being funny, but for a proper comparative trial it sounds like you are introducing errors and inconsistencies by using different ages of boots. I suspect it makes a difference as older boots are softer and may well be more sticky than brand new, rigid boots. But I may be wrong!!!
Ideally it would be best to get brand new pairs of each boot, cut out a specific size of rubber and bond it to a standardised backing to eliminate flexion variations. Does it matter which rocks you test them with- this means you are testing rock types rather than the rubber itself. Why not just test on a standardised surface with a known CoF?
Sorry to be picky, but I'm sure company X will say the same when you tell them how crap their adhesiv8tion rubber is!!
Good luck, and let us know results.
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I understand exactly what you are saying but i cannot afford to buy new boots and none of the companies i wrote too got back to me (except Red Chili but they could not provide any samples). :boohoo:
I am not going to tell any company that their rubber is crap. I am simply going to use my results to compare the boots.
The whole report is really on boots in general, the history, current market, future research, future ideas and progression. The friction testing will just add to the project and hopefully results will not be too far off. All the boots actually look to have had similar wear.
The rock type will just give me more results to look into and i think it will be interesting to see if sterotypical thoughts are true.
I wish i could have had new boots from a wide range of companies as this would make the whole thing more valid and reliable but ah well. Also this gives me a good way in critiquing my own work which you always get marks for! Haha! And can say for future research this perhaps should be done!!
I am also using a proper expensive machine used in earth sciences when calculating friction and the machine that is used for many of Trail magazines friction test reviews!
But as i say completely understand what your saying!
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what was it dawes wore on the very big and the very small?
my mind subconciously threw up "lince's"..?
He wore Linces on a lot of his Welsh routes of the late 80's (including the Indian Face) but I seem to remember he wore Sprints for the VBVS. Pop Quiz time: Whose boots was JD sponsoered to wear prior to the Linces?
I'm not sure whether any dissretation can pass without mention of Britain's contribution to rock boot manufacture; Croft they sponsored Mick Lovatt for a while and a couple of others (anyone remember?). Their boots were rubbish (though I doubt they were worse than some of Hanwags later models like the Wildcat). Also, post Hanwag Crack Specials, Ron Fawcett launched a UK made boot with Clog which was also crap.
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As I said earlier, my first pair were Croft B3s. Pants, but better than trainers.