UKBouldering.com
the site => suggestions, requests, support => Topic started by: crimp on April 08, 2013, 03:33:22 pm
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Thought police
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Commenting on the deceased's life is one thing, celebrating their death is quite different.
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Lock n log.
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Ok.
She was a dreadful person. Her policies tore communities apart, using violence where she couldn't get her own pro wealth anti poor ideology through.
She used troops against their own communities. Orgreave colliery, the battle of the beanfield, etc reminded many of the Peterloo massacre.
Etc, etc, etc...
She will not be missed by many. But we shall have no emotion about it all.
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Log.
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Stifle.
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*sigh*
RIP thread - if you look through it is, pretty much a head-up on who has recently passed.
If you created a Maggie thread - you'd be free (probably) to debate her merits or lack of to your hearts' content. Heck, you could possibly even start an RIH thread if you were so inclined.
Personally I don't see the benefit of celebrating anyone's death.
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Tut sigh and wheeze (and other disapproving bodily sounds)
firstly, rip is irreverent enough.
The whole site is. What you saying, it's ok to call that cameron and osbourne a cunt, but not thatcher, just because she has done the decent thing and died?
Moderators are cracking down on anti Maggie sentiment big time.
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Hot off the press...
Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette)
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Sometimes if you have nothing good to say about someone/something it's better to say nothing... Matter of taste and respect for the dead and all those outdated ideas.
Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/08/margaret-thatcher-death-etiquette)
But then the Guardian says it's ok so what would I know... :shrug:
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If you've read that piece (in 2m 32secs, which is fast) then it might help you make up your mind, but its ultimately your decision.
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I personally won't be celebrating any ones death - though I feel indifference to her passing away. In many ways she had died a few years back. Having grown up during the 80's I can also fully understand why people will be pleased with her passing away - those were incredibly divisive times and her Government acted out policies that certainly contributed to that (some might say I'm putting that very lightly!).
But this thread is about whether or not we can express our own views about it. Which I think is fair enough. If you're outraged by peoples views fine - and vice versa - thats discussion.
If the aim of locking the thread was to stop UKB discussing it, then that was wrong. If locking the RIP thread was to try and keep things in the RIP thread about people who have died rather than a Thatcher discussion thread then fair enough (though they could have spawned a new thread...). Maybe some clarity from the IO's could help with this.
Though I can't help wondering if the same have happened if Bono (and his hat) karked it in a plane crash... ;)
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If you've read that piece (in 2m 32secs, which is fast) then it might help you make up your mind, but its ultimately your decision.
Like most/many on t'internet I skimmed and picked out the bits I wanted to see... :whistle:
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Come on slackline, tomtom, et al.
Get my back here.
If i have offended you. I will be at south west BMC regional meet on 13th at nova Scotia pub.
Come and argue the toss with me.
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i'm certainly agreeing that we should be able to discuss it
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I'm not offended, I just don't really care.
Thatcher did her damage years ago, and the effects are still felt today. Her passing today makes no difference to me. I won't celebrate or commiserate, but my comment about hell in the RIP thread was because her approach and policies harmed many, many people.
I started the RIP thread so that there wasn't an individual one each time someone of note kicked the bucket. In that regard, what tomtom said, and clarification as to why its been locked should explain whether its an attempt to stiffle free speech (which would be a shame) or keep the thread on topic (perhaps a first for UKB!) for those that care.
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I appreciate that slackline.
Not asking you to agree with me. Just look out for of the, and watch my back bud
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BBC radio just reported several hundred people having a party in Glasgow centre with champagne and everything.
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If the aim of locking the thread was to stop UKB discussing it, then that was wrong. If locking the RIP thread was to try and keep things in the RIP thread about people who have died rather than a Thatcher discussion thread then fair enough (though they could have spawned a new thread...). Maybe some clarity from the IO's could help with this.
I locked it temporarily. My decision alone. I thought the "rot in hell" comments were extremely distasteful. I informed the other moderators at the same time. They unlocked it again, which is fine - their call. No-one's posts were deleted apart from mine: fucking censors, eh?
Not unrelated to this: my mother is Thatcher's age and has also had dementia for several years. Not a happy way to spend your final years.
I think you were right. Still censorship a tricky line to walk :(
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On reflection my comment was probably inappropriate, but I didn't think it was the best thread for reporting Thatchers death as the RIP thread tends to be for people who have done great things in their time.
Not unrelated to this: my mother is Thatcher's age and has also had dementia for several years. Not a happy way to spend your final years.
Saw my wifes grandfather die of dementia a few years back. Both of my elderly grandmothers are in their late eighties and on their way out (albeit their bodies are going rather than their minds).
Not sure there is a happy way to spend your final years. :no:
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Sometimes if you have nothing good to say about someone/something it's better to say nothing... Matter of taste and respect for the dead and all those outdated ideas.
Exactly what my ancestors used to say (a little latin quote for Dense):
"De mortuis nihil nisi bonum".
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I shall neither mourn nor mock.
She had few friends, in the end, and history has not been overly kind, nor will it ever be.
There were pros and cons to her policies, if you think there weren't, you've forgotten how bad things were '77, '78, '79.
Let it go.
Worry about the latest bunch of elitist morons.
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If even half the effort that was expended in hating Thatcher/the Tory scum was put into something positive we might not have the latest bunch of elitist morons...
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:icon_beerchug:
If even half the effort that was expended in hating Thatcher/the Tory scum was put into something positive we might not have the latest bunch of elitist morons...
+a fat 1
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Thatcher's policies were instrumental in creating a country where the majority are too disenfranchised/uneducated to bother voting. Hence, the elitist morons in some form or other will forever rule.
So yeah, but no.
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I've never been able to work out whether she grasped Hayek's 70's economic theories because they were the strongest ideas available or because they fitted her preconceptions - I like to think that with her scientific background it was the former - However, from what I remember, Hayek kept updating his ideas in the tradition of the western scientific method - shame Thatcher couldn't do the same - possibly because she was stuck in our version of democracy which ultimately favoured the likes of Blair who just sought immediate popularity rather than being right (I mean "correct" rather than "right wing")
As far as I'm concerned, we need a a good, strong socialist dictatorship with me at the helm - we'll be united in our efforts to fight against bad bacteria, viruses, laziness, bigotry and asteroids - that should keep us going for a couple of hundred years while we work out the right way to run things
hard to know which thread to post in
in summary; free speech is OK as long as you listen to what I say and take time to realise that I am right - other ideas (especially evidence based stuff) are useful too, obviously, as I am quite prepared to change my opinion - you should just trust my judgement for a while. too many cooks and all that
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Thatcher's policies were instrumental in creating a country where the majority are too disenfranchised/uneducated to bother voting. Hence, the elitist morons in some form or other will forever rule.
In that regards this is an interesting read...
Margaret Thatcher: Still More Alive Than She Herself Dared To Dream (http://thequietus.com/articles/11886-margaret-thatcher-obituary)
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Thought police
Huh?
OK, what have I missed?
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OK, what have I missed?
Some short lived censorship, (which I didn't agree with btw,) nothing to see now.
I don't know which thread to post in either. Anyway,
Hence, the elitist morons in some form or other will forever rule.
That's the problem regardless of who you vote for.
Unless it's lagers, when do you start your campaign?
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As far as I'm concerned, we need a a good, strong socialist dictatorship with me at the helm - we'll be united in our efforts to fight against bad bacteria, viruses, laziness, bigotry and asteroids - that should keep us going for a couple of hundred years while we work out the right way to run things
Benevolent dictatorship with Lagers at the helm? Hell Yeah, where do I sign up??
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If your campaign features this, plus no tax on fish or lager, you already have my vote.
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Thatcher's policies were instrumental in creating a country where the majority are too disenfranchised/uneducated to bother voting. Hence, the elitist morons in some form or other will forever rule.
In that regards this is an interesting read...
Margaret Thatcher: Still More Alive Than She Herself Dared To Dream (http://thequietus.com/articles/11886-margaret-thatcher-obituary)
That's a cracking article.
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I grew up in a family in which The Iron Lady was one of my father's heroes, and I never had the chance or the desire to deeply analyze her acts and her policies. I know that somehow she managed to solve soccer hooligans' issue, and that for me, being Italian, is a great accomplishment.
I don't know much more, beside the Falklands war.
So, I really did not expect such a strong reaction over her death, such happiness.
I have realized that for sure little did I truly know about her.
Despite some feelings that I can't understand, her death really opened my eyes and made some things more clear.
Thank you all for opinions, comments and links.
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This is bullshit. No pastry or Anasazi option. (http://ukbouldering.com/wiki/index.php/HowTo_create_a_ukb-compliant_Poll) Is it a poll tax?
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As Someone who was 5 at the start of her term I find all these weird feelings on her passing, all the hate songs by Costello and Hefner etc written during her life seem way off the mark for the event. Its just a feeling of waste.
My Dad posted a quote on facebook that seemed to fit my mood best:
"I will mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy". - Martin Luther King Jr
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I know that somehow she managed to solve soccer hooligans' issue, and that for me, being Italian, is a great accomplishment.
A widely held misconception largely due to the lies of the right wing press both at the time and since.....
http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1161-april-2013/9635-how-margaret-thatcher-influenced-football (http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1161-april-2013/9635-how-margaret-thatcher-influenced-football)
http://www.theweek.co.uk/football/margaret-thatcher/52388/margaret-thatcher-football-not-mourn-death (http://www.theweek.co.uk/football/margaret-thatcher/52388/margaret-thatcher-football-not-mourn-death)
etc
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Though I can't help wondering if the same have happened if Bono (and his hat) karked it in a plane crash... ;)
Would be lovely irony if he was flying to a climate change conference when it happened.
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I've been trying to think of some genuine positives as a result of thatcher's rule. This sketch is about the best I could come up with.
The Day Today - IRA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOUeauLWEaE#)
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My Dad posted a quote on facebook that seemed to fit my mood best:
"I will mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy". - Martin Luther King Jr
An admirable sentiment and one I wish I could share.
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I was born in 72 in Leeds so definitely a child of the thatcher era and have hazy memories of the power cuts before she came to power. I think that the country was seriously broken when she came to power and needed some radical changes. For me she was a great dismantler unfortunately nothing was ever put in place to replace what was dismantled. I never had any time for the miners. Leed's textile industry vanished and no-one gave it government subsidies or funding to keep it in place - yet the city recovered and found alternate jobs. The miners struck me as being stuck in an economic past that was coming to an end. Scargill didn't hold a ballot, and took them out during the spring (when demand for coal was low and they power stations had huge stockpiles) for what felt like political power reasons. I've always thought that the miner's strike wasn't a heroic battle for worker's rights - but a misguided political decision to try and pull down another democratically elected government - that failed due to incompetent leadership. Is Thatcher to blame for banker's greed and the individualist society? Who knows? Seems like an easy bogey-woman to blame, there's always been greed on the right and the left and probably always will be. I vote for lager's benign dictatorship (although it does worry me that dense may have some form of roll in the lager junta)
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I know that somehow she managed to solve soccer hooligans' issue, and that for me, being Italian, is a great accomplishment.
A widely held misconception largely due to the lies of the right wing press both at the time and since.....
http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1161-april-2013/9635-how-margaret-thatcher-influenced-football (http://www.wsc.co.uk/wsc-daily/1161-april-2013/9635-how-margaret-thatcher-influenced-football)
http://www.theweek.co.uk/football/margaret-thatcher/52388/margaret-thatcher-football-not-mourn-death (http://www.theweek.co.uk/football/margaret-thatcher/52388/margaret-thatcher-football-not-mourn-death)
etc
Very interesting, thanks.
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I vote for lager's benign dictatorship (although it does worry me that dense may have some form of roll in the lager junta)
He's lined up for a PR role.
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Thatcher did nothing positive for football from an English perspective. The availability of good quality E's had more of an effect on reducing and side-lining football hooliganism than her policies.
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Thatcher did nothing positive for football from an English perspective. The availability of good quality E's had more of an effect on reducing and side-lining football hooliganism than her policies.
Dad commented today that he noticed that Man U were NOT wearing black arm bands nor a minutes silence or owt like that which often happens at matches when notable folk kark it (not that I know - dont really watch football).
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I grew up in a family in which The Iron Lady was one of my father's heroes, and I never had the chance or the desire to deeply analyze her acts and her policies. I know that somehow she managed to solve soccer hooligans' issue, and that for me, being Italian, is a great accomplishment.
Nothing to do with Thatcher - its a chemical solution. Its widely believed that these solved it:
(http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200707/r163734_603811.jpg)
E's became the matchday enhancer of choice.. and with it the less agressive than alcohol side effects...
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Thatcher did nothing positive for football from an English perspective. The availability of good quality E's had more of an effect on reducing and side-lining football hooliganism than her policies.
Sorry - posted the above before seeing Rich's post.. +1
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Ah! I really did not know this!
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Hi fiend.
I take my smitings with good grace.
But in reply to being smited because the moderators have a right to crack down on political spite, i would say this.
They should clamp down on racism, sexism, homophobia, and all forms of discrimination, bullying, threats of violence etc.
But political spite? So all political satire cartoons, sketches, etc are to be outlawed?
You had best smite everyone posting in cunt of the year thread. It's overflowing with political spite.
We're not talking about people picking on the weak here.
I can see where habrich his coming from with his stated personal situation, but i am sure he understands the context, and knows none of it is personal.
Regards
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I'm generally one to not think too much about politics etc, I'm just going with the flow and letting those with the passion and time to consider sort it out. I also find football complete anathema, but reading those articles, all I think is this: in a game, men kicking a ball and those who do it better 'win', why all the hatred? 'Poor ticket management' in Heysel a reason for the riot that killed people? What is it with football that it has to be 'we hate those QPR cunts' etc? Other than the stadium being filled with angry horrible morons I just don't get it. In fact the 'QPR cunts' ting I've heard from a well standing, intelligent, good friend, but I guess someone who wouldn't wield a Stanley knife in anger.
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The best and worst thing about this forum is the oppressive consensus on many subjects. For climbing, and a few other practical topics, that works well: keeps idiots away. On politics ... personally I wish people would vent elsewhere and leave ukb politics-free. Especially the one or two who don't contribute anything else to this place. I am not alone with that wish ... others have said it to me directly.
Nothing to do with the fact that your politics is not in line with that consensus? I'm sure I'm less bothered as I'm closer to it, but I do think it'd be healthier (or at least make for more informative reading) if the debate on here had more input from those to the right of the average UKBer - FD, yourself, ummm, haven't really picked up on others politics - and perhaps the consensus would then feel less oppressive? Certainly wouldn't want people to feel they couldn't discuss politics on here.
Bring back Sloper.
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I agree with that - Sloper was full of conviction, and actually a really nice bloke, and in the west I don't know why fora are averse to politics, they could have a 'politics' sub board and the admins wouldn't be chucked in clink. I know it's a divisive topic but people are obviously keen to discus it
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Nothing to do with the fact that your politics is not in line with that consensus? I'm sure I'm less bothered as I'm closer to it, but I do think it'd be healthier (or at least make for more informative reading) if the debate on here had more input from those to the right of the average UKBer - FD, yourself, ummm, haven't really picked up on others politics - and perhaps the consensus would then feel less oppressive? Certainly wouldn't want people to feel they couldn't discuss politics on here.
Bring back Sloper.
To be honest, I thought about contributing more at the start of this thread and in one or two others in the past. I didn't because I get the impression that there's a great depth of feeling and vitriol behind the left side of political spectrum on here (maybe it's to do with it mostly being Sheffield based, I suppose if you have to put up with the disappointment of having Nick Clegg?) and I think one of the worst things about t'other channel is when you have two sets of massively opposed entrenched views throwing shit at each other. Check pretty much any political thread but especially free Scotland or the Falklands, they really bring the nutters out. On an emotive subject like 'Maggie's a c*nt', no-one's going to give an inch and there's no evidence that will change their minds so IMO it's better not to try as it will probably end up with ukb being worse off for it.
Now if someone could help a luddite out and post that xkcd 'someone's wrong on the internet' sketch that would sum my badly reasoned argument up.
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maybe it's to do with it mostly being Sheffield based, I suppose if you have to put up with the disappointment of having Nick Clegg?
I live in Sheffield, Clegg is not my MP. There are six parliamentary wards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areas_of_Sheffield) covering the city. :read:
Now if someone could help a luddite out and post that xkcd 'someone's wrong on the internet' sketch that would sum my badly reasoned argument up.
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png) (http://xkcd.com/386/)
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You had best smite everyone posting in cunt of the year thread. It's overflowing with political spite.
You said it. That thread is not ukb's finest, in my opinion. The best and worst thing about this forum is the oppressive consensus on many subjects. For climbing, and a few other practical topics, that works well: keeps idiots away. On politics ... personally I wish people would vent elsewhere and leave ukb politics-free. Especially the one or two who don't contribute anything else to this place. I am not alone with that wish ... others have said it to me directly.
ARFK mentioned receiving a pm regarding his membership of this site and asking why he only posted in the 'shooting the shit' section ........ And I admit it's my fault ......... Firstly I thought that he would make some interesting contributions to the place, which I feel he has, and, secondly I told him to keep well away from the climbing sections as he has no knowledge in that area whatsoever ....... Which he has ........
I also took some time to read through my posts of recent months and realised that I was just as guilty, a few clues and answers on the cryptic crosswords thread, a couple in other sections of 's'ing the s't' and one lone comment on my mate Dancing John and his first trip to Font .......
I didn't realise that this would be a problem ....... I used to climb, not particulary well admittedly, highpoint being the 6b problem at the rh end of little slab, but after three of the people I regularly climbed with managed to smash their ankles and I narrowly escaped doing the same thing after falling from the second to last move on Conan, I decided to pretty much knock it on the head ......... And so, although I never felt qualified to comment on many of the threads, I occassionaly did ....... Generally with exclamations of amazement at the achievements I read about ........ But these days I don't feel qualified enough to even do that ..... Doesn't stop me reading them though .......
And so I find myself a non-climbing member of a climbing forum ........ And if this is a problem with the administrators then I'll, rather glumly, pack up my profile and sod off .......
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And so I find myself a non-climbing member of a climbing forum ........ And if this is a problem with the administrators then I'll, rather glumly, pack up my profile and sod off .......
It's not a problem at all - and if it was I'd be rather hypocritical since I rarely go climbing these days either....which is why I also hardly ever post in climbing related topics on here.
We're not the only ones, there's quite a few retired/ex/wannabe/armchair climbers on here. People come and go, drift into different activities, get injured, scared, etc.
<edit> * Just to clarify, the above is my personal opinion, not an official UKB policy
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On politics ... personally I wish people would vent elsewhere and leave ukb politics-free. Especially the one or two who don't contribute anything else to this place. I am not alone with that wish ... others have said it to me directly.
I wouldn't mind so much if folk's forum etiquette was a bit better. IE starting a new thread should be a last resort rather than your default. Perhaps a random rant thread might help?
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I live in Sheffield, Clegg is not my MP. There are six parliamentary wards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areas_of_Sheffield) covering the city. :read:
You all live up north, isn't it all like one giant Hovis advert...? [/endcondescendingsoutherner]
(http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png) (http://xkcd.com/386/)
Thank you! :great:
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Perhaps a random rant thread might help?
That's one reason we have the log pile.
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but I do think it'd be healthier (or at least make for more informative reading) if the debate on here had more input from those to the right of the average UKBer - FD, yourself,
I would, and I do when time permits. I like debating but it's so time consuming to get into, expecially when typing rather than talking.
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I think this site would be vastly improved by people taking their politics elsewhere, but that's my personal view,
Fair enough.
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Personally, i started this thread in a knee jerk reaction to censorship of my right to public reply.
I fully get where habrich was coming from. My own mother would have been kinder to have let her go 2 years earlier. Habrich ain't stupid, he knows there was nothing personal in peoples hatred of thatcher.
As for honouring her kids memories. Fuck them. An emotionally retarded daughter living off her mothers name, and an upper class mercenary arms dealer, tried to make a fortune by trying to overthrow regimes in exchange for oil and gas deals. No sympathy for them or their pinochet supporting mother here.
Fuck her. I am glad she is dead.
How it relates to this forum is another matter.
If people are welcome to bring an issue up here, then people must be free to comment as they feel.
There is no point allowing a topic with no right of reply.
I have always found OUR forum well focussed on what we are all in to, and that's climbing right?
Let's keep it that way. But if side issues surface, people are gonna vent.
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Oh, and i would also like to big up bubbas statement on rejoice thread, and show some love for grumpycrumpy and aLICErOBERTSfANcLUB
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sorry bubba. In this thread, not rejoice.
Keeping it real
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Just had a quick peek at the Supertopo forums - nasty!
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And so I find myself a non-climbing member of a climbing forum ........ And if this is a problem with the administrators then I'll, rather glumly, pack up my profile and sod off .......
There are various personal views on that, but no agreed policy.
That said, I would hope it is self-evident to everyone that there's a tipping point with any special interest forum beyond which having too high proportion of active members, who don't share the interest, makes the forum dysfunctional. ukb is probably nowhere near that point. Amongst climbing sites, I would say SuperTopo in the US has long gone past it.
i feel this is a bit of a backhanded way of telling someone they are not welcome.
I am uncomfortable with this.
If that's the case, MTFU and say so.
If that includes me, i would rather know where i stand.
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Habrich
Don't ruin your day on account of my BS. Nobody wants that.
Let it ride. We understand each other i think.
I can be difficult on account of my mental health problems, but i am also a committed regional climber.
Shaun
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And so I find myself a non-climbing member of a climbing forum ........ And if this is a problem with the administrators then I'll, rather glumly, pack up my profile and sod off .......
It's not a problem at all - and if it was I'd be rather hypocritical since I rarely go climbing these days either....which is why I also hardly ever post in climbing related topics on here.
Ta Bubba :great:
Oh, and i would also like to big up bubbas statement on rejoice thread, and show some love for grumpycrumpy and aLICErOBERTSfANcLUB
Ta Adge :great:
And so I find myself a non-climbing member of a climbing forum ........ And if this is a problem with the administrators then I'll, rather glumly, pack up my profile and sod off .......
There are various personal views on that, but no agreed policy.
That said, I would hope it is self-evident to everyone that there's a tipping point with any special interest forum beyond which having too high proportion of active members, who don't share the interest, makes the forum dysfunctional. ukb is probably nowhere near that point. Amongst climbing sites, I would say SuperTopo in the US has long gone past it.
I guess I'll start packing ......
Thanks, it's been fun ........
Rob
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Rob,
no worries bud. We'll go out together. Fight the power.
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Nobody has said that's necessary grumpy although I can understand why you might feel like that.
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^+1
I wouldn't be too sensitive mr grumpy, if the reasons you've enjoyed participating in this forum still apply ..then why not?
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I guess I'll start packing ......
Me too. Bouldering sucks.
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Only if you're shit at it. Oh, sorry shark. :)
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I held off posting on this thread, because Bubba and I had a run in t'other week on a similar one, and I thought that frankly there was little point in contributing to the discussion as it was a waste of time. But... now I'm changing my mind.
This is a great forum. It's great, in my opinion, because the sections on climbing are very informative and very useful. The training section, the conditions reports, the fact that it keeps up with the state of the climbing nation. The fact that it is unafraid to call people out over bullshit and that a spirited and balanced but hard discussion can be had about climbing and climbing ethics, and simpson etc. is fucking fantastic.
Why is this bit good? It’s good because of the knowledge, the expertise, and the experience in that area. Not from specific people – there are some with more than others though clearly – but the hive mind. The forum, as a whole, knows what it is talking about – and that’s why the climbing parts are good. Unlike (say) ukc, where the hive mind is nowhere near as good.
If you look at the other topics – politics, etc. – the hive mind isn’t as developed. Without wanting to let me political opinions leak into my point, there is a lot of ignorance about economics, politics and FACTS (closely related to SCIENCE). This means that the discussions, although due to the personalities and the environments are equally vociferous but the standards of the FACTS just aren’t as high. This is why we end up with discussions like the Thatcher one. Don’t bother disagreeing with the specifics here – I don’t care if you are happy if she’s dead or not, that isn’t the point – the point is that COLLECTIVELY we are a bunch of thickos on non-climbing topics. Disagree with that if you like.
So what I think happens is that we end up with a bunch of people communicating their opinions strongly (as is the style of the forum), but having less clue, and then you end up with something that is at times worse than ukc. (Or how I imagine it is, as I never go on there anymore, but you get my point I hope.)
Nobody wants that.
So we end up with the moderators clamping down on it.
They’re trying to prevent offense to the forum users, to themselves, and – perhaps critically – UKB’s sponsors. If I were still on the BMC’s board for example, I would definitely be thinking about associating the BMC’s brand with the Thatcher threads. It’s not the whole board, but.... that vitriol is just not something I would have wanted the BMC’s brand to be associated with.
This is a hard task. As soon as they start clamping down on it, in the absence of a sensible framework, they start pissing people off. People don’t expect to be moderated, they don’t expect their shit to be deleted – and they don’t consider what they’re actually doing properly. So we get annoyed, as we LIKE the light moderation.
Should we stick to climbing topics alone? I don’t think so. But we should expect harder moderation on our bullshit – and much less moderation, if any at all, on the climbing parts. I for one am happy with that – the deletion of the fit birds topic for example, and would be happy if the rejoice thread was wiped too.
P.S Bubba, for the record: I puntered you for your explanation of your moderation, not the moderation itself. I’m happy with aggressive moderation, but please don’t try to excuse it with “it’s my ball”, that’s just needless and wrong. (You can’t play on your own.) You should also stick to your own rules: don’t just ban people because you feel like it, stick to the guidelines you wrote etc.
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If you look at the other topics – politics, etc. – the hive mind isn’t as developed. Without wanting to let me political opinions leak into my point, there is a lot of ignorance about economics, politics and FACTS (closely related to SCIENCE). This means that the discussions, although due to the personalities and the environments are equally vociferous but the standards of the FACTS just aren’t as high. This is why we end up with discussions like the Thatcher one. Don’t bother disagreeing with the specifics here – I don’t care if you are happy if she’s dead or not, that isn’t the point –
On this front it would be useful, as we all have limited time to post, if people provide links to blogs/articles and such like that go into greater detail on the FACTS so that others reading can discover a bit more about the other points of view.
Of course no one is obliged to, but it often adds credence to the point being made, rather than appearing to be just ramblings on a forum.
the point is that COLLECTIVELY we are a bunch of thickos on non-climbing topics. Disagree with that if you like.
I'm afraid I do because there are INDIVIDUALS who do know a lot about non-climbing topics and are far from thickos...
Jasper knows what he's talking about when it comes to finances.
Dense, JB, Bonjoy and others know their rope access.
Paul B, dave, JB and many others know their photography.
tomtom, Will and andy_e know their geology.
habrich knows about economics/markets.
etc. etc. etc.
To ignore this would be a shame.
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They’re trying to prevent offense to the forum users, to themselves, and – perhaps critically – UKB’s sponsors. If I were still on the BMC’s board for example, I would definitely be thinking about associating the BMC’s brand with the Thatcher threads. It’s not the whole board, but.... that vitriol is just not something I would have wanted the BMC’s brand to be associated with.
Good post. Some people of course will be offended by anything and the task is to where to draw the line between what is acceptable or unacceptable and this line moves as well as society's mores change.
I know you only cited the BMC for illustrative purposes but they are more robust than many might assume and, if I can take the opportunity to big them up for a second, been steadfast in their support of UKB even when Ryan emailed the CEO and President directly accusing us of misogyny.
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I tend to agree with habrich and lund.
I would be in favour of dumping politics from forum.
Maybe have a vent thread for member viewing only?
Personally, I'll check my opinions at the door, and stick to discussing climbing, culture, cider, and cute fluffy stuff for magpie of course.
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I'm afraid I do because there are INDIVIDUALS who do know a lot about non-climbing topics and are far from thickos...
Jasper knows what he's talking about when it comes to finances.
Dense, JB, Bonjoy and others know their rope access.
Paul B, dave, JB and many others know their photography.
tomtom, Will and andy_e know their geology.
habrich knows about economics/markets.
etc. etc. etc.
To ignore this would be a shame.
So unless you are an expert in your given field, are you not entitled to give an opinion? Surely anyone is allowed to express an opinion on any subject they choose, and then through open discussion and debate on the forum get educated or get flamed?
We may all have a common love of climbing (well 99% of us) but outside of that guess what, we are individuals who will have varying (and often opposing) views on just about everything and anything, which will result in discussion and disagreement. It's all part of the rich tapestry surely? If people reach a point where they feel they are no longer welcome because of their views on a certain subject IMO this forum will be a poorer place.
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So unless you are an expert in your given field, are you not entitled to give an opinion?
No Chris, thats not what I said. I said that individuals are not necessarily thickos in all areas, precisely because we each have our own area of expertise, and to ignore that aspect of knowledge and insight that regular users share by saying that collectively we are 'thickos' would be a shame.
In saying this I did not state or in anyway even attempt to insinuate, that just because you're not an expert that you are not allowed to have an opinion of your own and express it.
I thought what I wrote was quite black and white, but clearly not, I shall try and be clearer next time.
we are individuals who will have varying (and often opposing) views on just about everything and anything, which will result in discussion and disagreement. It's all part of the rich tapestry surely?
Yes, something I mentioned a while ago (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21672.msg397188.html#msg397188) myself when you were telling me to shut the fuck up.
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I find it quite interesting to see what people believe in politically and to see how entrenched/non entrenched their views are. I think there's a lot of non climbing knowledge on here and not sure if that would or wouldn't suffer from more moderation. I don't think the forum shouldn't discuss politics as it affects us all and is in various elements of what we all do, right down to crag access. I don't think there should be a requirement to be an active climber to post on here either ( I assume that people's past experience is really useful and valid for the hive brain). I also hope there isn't a requirement to be climbing above a certain grade or else I'm screwed.
from a voyeuristic perspective it feels as though the forum is now (post dfbwgcgate) setting norms and expected behaviours with some storming as well, be interesting to see where it finally settles at. www.businessballs.com/tuckmanformingstormingnormingperforming.htm (http://www.businessballs.com/tuckmanformingstormingnormingperforming.htm)
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Yes, something I mentioned a while ago (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,21672.msg397188.html#msg397188) myself when you were telling me to shut the fuck up.
I didn't tell you to shut the fuck up (although I should have :) ). You are entitled to express an opinion, but just understand that sometimes it might not actually be a catch all solution to everyone's problems.
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Karma is a really good way of dealing with things - and I think this forum is really very good at handling internal moderation.
Even though I was harranged on a thread the other day like a Trot in a conservative club.. ;)
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In reply to Habrich, I wasn't implying there was a behind the scenes revolution, quite the opposite. It feels like UKB members (obviously including the mods as they're members too) are setting these norms and working out what is and isn't acceptable, with non mod members thinking about the impact on sponsors for example. The mods to me feel like part of the process, not leading it or shaping it. I wasn't trying to pass a value judgement as I think the mods and IOLs do a much better job than I'd do of it.
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Changes are being made here which go against my principles, and I just cannot agree with them. ;)
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Careful guys!
You're in danger of consensus.
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Oh no I'm not.
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that didn't work :/
Fast Show - I'll Get Me Coat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfJAHASV8k8#)
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Oh no I'm not.
You are just bitter that you didn't make Slackers' elite "far-from-thickos" list ...
I'd like to think it's because I'm not a specialist; I know very little about a hell of a lot of things. I like the word polymath :)
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Was going 2try 2say the same as Lund but using about 10 words and one of them was "fucking".
I see nothing wrong with free speech, tho its not free at all. The way I read things, surely most people do the same, is I read what's been said by who's said it and then I judge it. Ie if I see that Paul B's going on about a weights program I piss my sides and put this in the compartment in my head that says "nonsense" however if Paul was to go on about a program for getting strong fingers I'd lister attentively.
I don't comment on the political or other such threads since I don't know or pretend to know anything about such things. I'm a simple man, I go to work, I climb, I eat and I sleep. However I do read them and I struggle to comprehend why things are in such a mess when all the powers that be need do to sort out any problems is read ukb
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Oh no I'm not.
You are just bitter that you didn't make Slackers' elite "far-from-thickos" list ...
I'd like to think it's because I'm not a specialist; I know very little about a hell of a lot of things. I like the word polymath :)
I prefer 'pubquizbore' ;D
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I've never met a music round I didn't like.
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Oh no I'm not.
You are just bitter that you didn't make Slackers' elite "far-from-thickos" list ...
I'd like to think it's because I'm not a specialist; I know very little about a hell of a lot of things. I like the word polymath :)
What I like about UKB is that you always learn something new, until today I didn't know that polymath meant twat.
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Oh no I'm not.
You are just bitter that you didn't make Slackers' elite "far-from-thickos" list ...
I'd like to think it's because I'm not a specialist; I know very little about a hell of a lot of things. I like the word polymath :)
What I like about UKB is that you always learn something new, until today I didn't know that polymath meant twat.
ihadtoreadthatthreetimeshowaboutyoulearnwheretoputafullstop
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All the powers that be need do to sort out any problems is read ukb
I keep trying to email the Prime Minister about this, but he's not replying for some reason...
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I'd like to think it's because I'm not a specialist; I know very little about a hell of a lot of things. I like the word polymath :)
[/quote]
What I like about UKB is that you always learn something new, until today I didn't know that polymath meant twat.
[/quote]
ihadtoreadthatthreetimeshowaboutyoulearnwheretoputafullstop
[/quote]
I genuinely don't get that.
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Oh no I'm not.
You are just bitter that you didn't make Slackers' elite "far-from-thickos" list ...
I'd like to think it's because I'm not a specialist; I know very little about a hell of a lot of things. I like the word polymath :)
What I like about UKB is that you always learn something new, until today I didn't know that polymath meant twat.
In most cases usually in my case definitely.