UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => diet, training and injuries => Topic started by: Paul B on December 29, 2014, 05:27:03 pm
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With the School re-opening I now have access to a load of reference problems I was quite handy on back in around 2007. This isn't necessarily a good thing (and confirms my suspicions that I've never come close to getting back to how strong I was then), but it is a fun thing (even if Dave Mac wouldn't approve of that, or my pre-session biscuits).
This has led me to noticing a few things about my climbing, more notably my core strength.
Currently I'm happy on tensiony problems and generally keeping my feet on (much better than in the past I'm sure), yet the second my feet come off, I'm back on the mat with very little resistance. This isn't just on harder things either, the 'easier' problems which require you to cut are taking a serious amount of effort and concious thought about jumping.
This may be slightly due to the fact I try and avoid anything which could vaguely have the potential to cause injury (i.e. jumping at savage holds and not letting go), but I can't help but feel it's more than that.
Speaking to Barrows he too feels that there are different types of core strength and that one can be good at keeping your feet on but bad at swinging around and visa versa.
I guess my question is, how do I improve the swinging about tension? Being able to be dynamic like this was one of the few redeeming features of my younger-front-wheel-driven climbing 'technique' and I'd like it back.
...and before anyone starts, I think the 56' board has gone up as it was. The 28 feels easier. I'm also about 10% heavier than I was.
/rosetint
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Without being any kind of expert in this area, perhaps you've got technically better at driving force through your feet while at the same time losing a little bit of core strength? Maybe you've gotten out of the habit of swinging your feet around, ergo you're not as good at it as you were before.
If this sounds like it's the case, your technique's improved and I envy your potential to climb harder. Good work sir.
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If you want to get better at swinging around on the board then I'd recommend a course of swinging around on the board until you stop falling off...
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I'm of the view that core is an unhelpful term since it groups muscles that have different functional roles and gives the impression that 'core' exercises will strengthen all trunk muscles. As you have found, they don't.
Possibly worth reposting from the similar discussion here (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,20295.msg367028.html#msg367028).
Feet on - hip extensors and low back extensors (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1srzy5gzvWvSwoXCA3-Fj2393xQHpnxVGdaNGcIATYqE/edit#slide=id.p)
Feet off - hip flexors and abdominals (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1SOol5pcHowzJVQawDxDjhPM5OMvkHWMHgasxbWaXSW0/edit#slide=id.ge2513df_0_21)
This is a simplistic representation and there is a lot of co-contraction of other muscles. The deeper abdominal muscles will be active during foot-on climbing for example.
So for 'foot off' strength, train abdominal muscles and hip flexors. Exercises such as leg lifts whilst hanging from a pull-up bar or deliberately cutting loose and replacing feet should be helpful.
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If you want to get better at swinging around on the board then I'd recommend a course of swinging around on the board until you stop falling off...
I want to understand what's changed certainly. Like I said, that part of my climbing back then was probably one of the few positives.
If this sounds like it's the case, your technique's improved and I envy your potential to climb harder. Good work sir.
It couldn't have got any worse, although (in my view) replacing one weakness for another isn't progress, and the ability to cut IS relevant (albeit not to all climbing).
Thanks Duncan, as ever.
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Keeping your feet on is definitely a different kind of tension than holding swings.
Makes me relieved that I'm not allowed back into the School :(. Men get fatter as they get older, a harsh reality I'm afraid. I'm nowhere near as good on small crimps.
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Keeping your feet on is definitely a different kind of tension than holding swings.
Makes me relieved that I'm not allowed back into the School :(. Men get fatter as they get older, a harsh reality I'm afraid. I'm nowhere near as good on small crimps.
Yeah but it's more significant than just getting heavier/older/shitter, this is a problem on the easier stuff and it's disproportionate to other 'changes'.
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It'll come back, you've only been going there a few months.
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What Doylo said. 10% heavier = several multiples heavier on the swing, even more if it's in the lower body as your COG has probably moved South by some distance. Think about the maths... That's why the less steep boards feel OK'ish. Physics innit.
(Not that you should pay any heed to what I have to say, I only managed 7A and that was twenty years ago)
Stick with it Paul :boxing:
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A couple of exercises that German coaches over here seem to like are easy but long roof/steep problems:
(a) deliberately cutting & replacing the feet on every move
(b) one-footed
I found a few rounds of these make a difference pretty quickly.
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It'll come back, you've only been going there a few months.
True, and a good few (~6) had me completely out due to injury.
I just wondered if it might be less of a muscle related thing and something more to do with coordination, timing and momentum.
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Did you start doing a lot of sport climbing? It's a commonly known fact that sport climbers are phenomenally weak.
Just do this and you'll be good:
http://myspace.com/masonkrochta/video/ab-ripper-x/50789881 (http://myspace.com/masonkrochta/video/ab-ripper-x/50789881)
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Ab Ripper X is good if you want to look nice with your top off, really not sure about the crossover to climbing.
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look nice with your top off, really not sure about the crossover to climbing.
Sorry, Tim, what? I thought the former was a precursor for the latter? Where have I been going wrong?
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Did you start doing a lot of sport climbing? It's a commonly known fact that sport climbers are phenomenally weak.
Worse, I did about 6 months of trad about a year ago, and a fair amount of actually walking to the crag!
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If you want to get better at swinging around on the board then I'd recommend a course of swinging around on the board until you stop falling off...
+ 1
I'm also about 10% heavier than I was.
Get on a diet fattie! 10% is a lot, even if you don't weigh much to begin with. Plus weaker fingers = struggling. I don't find jumpy board problems anything like as core intensive as burly compression type problems that you get on modern comp walls (e.g. at the Works).
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Quite, but at 56/57kg I'm not convinced that dropping back to former weight is a) sustainable and b)desirable despite your continued assertion that this is what it takes to be an athelete ;). I'm clearly not that. It's also not beneficial to the other types of climbing I enjoy (rather than pretty much only bouldering at that period in my past).
Like I've said above (or tried to) it feels more than just weight/strength (or that might just be it), I struggle to understand the body position etc. on problems that cut (Pego for a reference). It's almost as if I'm trying to keep my feet on until the point where it's clearly not going to work and that leaves me in an impossible position to hold any swing. Whereas, when I stopped and conciously thought about this (on Dobbins problem, the gift), I found myself almost jumping into the final position in the swing.
N.B. this isn't [solely] a desire to get better on boards, I want to understand the 'hole' that's appeared in my 'technique'.
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Paul it honestly sounds like you've just not been climbing on boards that much recently, and have therefore forgotten the specific movement sometimes required, especially on those >50 degrees. For me, if a move is going to be a jump rather than attempting to keep my feet on, then I'll be looking to hit the next hold with enough 'slack' in my arms that I can have both arms bent and shoulders fully engaged. This is a very different body position to the one you find yourself in if you have almost kept your feet on and then they pop, your centre of gravity is a lot higher.
I think this sort of feel for moves will come back after a few months, I reckon you'll find it'll improve quite rapidly.
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For a reference as you well know Paul, pego is 7c and the gift is 7a+. It is a different kind of core as you're asking. You won't reach the same level you did before by hoping to keep your feet on, that's not how you climbed on that board :P
And as Stubbs says.
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For a reference as you well know Paul, pego is 7c and the gift is 7a+.
Its not that simple or other problems of the same grade (God, how I'd hoped not to go 'there') feel fine.
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Well why did you give the two things as a reference then? I think you've just lost that ability and feel ashamed, and are trying to mask it by asking questions on the net of people who haven't climbed as hard as you on there. :furious:
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Ay up Paul,
My 2p's worth is that light legs (still can't believe you're 57kg!!) + downturned shoes = good at keeping your feet on. What it doesn't necessarily mean is that your core's good/ strong.
The cutting loose/ jumping to holds issue might be to do with lock strength too, it's a lot easier to hold a swing with a solid lock versus straight arms/ failing lock arms.
Not sure if the above is sense or just me going loopy during cod hip recovery!!
Oh and don't lose weight FFS!!
Catch up soon!
Gus
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Yeah you're 57kg and you can't even do Pego. You shit fuck. :jab:
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I shit 57kg.
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A 9 stone man complaining about being overweight :lol:. Going to bed with Bennett must be like shagging a ghost.
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Think 3 dimensional. I find when I haven't been doing much hard foot cutting style board work, i look at climbing much more two dimensionally. Changing the mind set on the style of movement and attitude about that style seems to impact how well i feel/climb on that style.
basically, go fucking aggro and you'll be good. :)
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I would pay good money to see Paul go aggro ;)
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Go aggro! Of at least overpower!
I find climbing routes is all about climbing as relaxed as possible, especially in the hands, arms shoulders.
When cutting loose/bouldering the mind set has to change: engage shoulders arms and fingers fully, and do so before your feet cut, not wait for that to happen.
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I would pay good money to see Paul go aggro ;)
You could've had front row seats the night I completely lost it at some poor student at the Foundry. Thankfully someone bigger than me stood up behind me for fear of me being flattened for behaving like such a choad. I apologise profusely when I see the person in question (which is far too often for comfort).
So to review this thread:
- I may actually have developed some useful technique (keeping feet on)
- Swinging around on the board will be good training for swinging around on a board
- For 'foot off' strength, train abdominal muscles and hip flexors
- I'm fat, get on a diet
- Body position / memory might be an issue
- People with light legs and downturned shoes give the illusion of having a strong core, in reality its weak.
- My lock might be sh*t
- I'm rubbish
- I'm not fat - don't go on a diet
- I need to think "3d"
- Go "aggro" (Be like Blay?)
and the best of all from last night "you're just not trying hard enough"...
:tumble:
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Now you've got some possible solutions, why not post a poll? ;)
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(http://fiveten.com/images/jreviews/14522_5106-anasazilace-thepink-web-02-1389735333.jpg)
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and the best of all from last night "you're just not trying hard enough"...
I'm looking forward to starting my coaching career.
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Pain_aux_raisins.jpg)
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I also think that shoulders (and maybe upper back) can make a huge difference in swinging around too. Sine all the force inevitably will go through them too.
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Interestingly (although likely not suprisingly), after an enforced break over Christmas, things felt significantly improved last night. Not that I tried the move in question but using other things as indicators.
Perhaps it's localised/sustained/repetitive fatigue?
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using other things as indicators.
fewer people told you that you weren't trying hard enough?
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Did you start doing a lot of sport climbing? It's a commonly known fact that sport climbers are phenomenally weak.
Just do this and you'll be good:
http://myspace.com/masonkrochta/video/ab-ripper-x/50789881 (http://myspace.com/masonkrochta/video/ab-ripper-x/50789881)
did this yesterday, not sure if to thank you for the link or kick you in the nuts
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I'm gonna try that on Thursday evening after yoga - save one of his nuts for me to kick.