UKBouldering.com
the shizzle => chuffing => Topic started by: Fultonius on October 01, 2012, 10:14:12 pm
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Ok, before I even start this is in no-way a reference to Mina's ascent of Mecca. All I can say about that is AMAZING ACHIEVEMENT :bow:
But, it seems like on a lot of routes, knee bars are "being found" in places where they must have been missed before. It seems like knee-bars are a bit of a new thing.
I managed to sneak a knee-bar in while on the verge of pumping out on Rat Race at Dunkeld on Saturday. (until I noticed a shift of body position could get a hands-off rest without the kneebar...)
Anyway, I was pondering as to why old skool gnarlers hadn't spotted the benefits of a good ol'knee wedge. Or did they?
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Why has it always been that even using knees for anything is seen as cheating? Anything goes as far as I'm concerned! I recently used a knee to good effect on a problem when smearing my foot wasn't an option without 6 months of yoga, so I smeared my knee instead, and I got the problem. Cheating? Whatever.
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My dad told me knees were cheating when I started climbing. For me it's the kneepads that are Nu Skool not the knees. I ve been amazed how the most minor knee scum can take your weight with a tight rubber pad. It feels like a whole new world of opportunity
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I've been knee-barring and getting shit for it since before it was trendy.
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I ve been amazed how the most minor knee scum can take your weight with a tight rubber pad
Those who saw Barrows doing Bear Claw on Pinches Wall as such will stand by this statement
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I've been knee-barring and getting shit for it since before it was trendy.
You must be some kind of knee-barring hipster ;)
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I ve been amazed how the most minor knee scum can take your weight with a tight rubber pad
Those who saw Barrows doing Bear Claw on Pinches Wall as such will stand by this statement
I did wonder how he did that, kneepads on pinches wall ;D
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Old school climbers knew of knee-bars but dismissed them as the work of Satan. As simple God-fearing folk they thought taking weight off with cushioned knee-pads during an activity as frivolous as climbing was mocking the serious business of kneeling on hassocks in Church.
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Old school climbers knew of knee-bars but dismissed them as the work of Satan.
If you put on a 5.10 kneepad inside out you'll evoke Satan.
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Anyway Doylo's right. Kneebars are not new school, Fred Nicole uses one on La Danse in an old video. The pads are new school.
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I'm not sure pads are even that new school, the Americans have been using them for years, they're just fairly new to Europe and particularly the UK.
The pinches wall scum wasnt actually that useful in the end, but hopefully it pissed a few people off.
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Are people seriously suggesting that the kneebar's main protagonist Big George Smith is nu-skool?
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Has nobody got time to upload a copy of the faggotry piece from The Thing? I suspect Nic was joking, but a whole generation seemed to take it 100% seriously...
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When did heels appear on the scene? ;)
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When I started climbing, it was the law to wear tweed and climb statically with three points of contact.
Egyptians, arm/ knee bars, heel hooks, foot locks etc are all old techniques, but aren't always obvious unless you are actually seeking them out. I have a photo of me in Font in 1990 doing a knee bar, and I'd seen them used waaaay before that.
I think some things are obvious eg crimping. Others, like knee bars may not occur to people unless told about them. I would agree that knee pads are changing things, but they do make sense.
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I think some things are obvious eg crimping.
Dunno. I grew up on brick edge walls e.g. Manchester Uni MacDougall Centre, but very rarely use a full crimp. This is probably why I (a) am a weak punter but also (b) have a relatively injury-free climbing history.
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Is it just a classic case of ignorance of history, re-inventing the wheel and cyclical fashions?
That, combined with the improvement gained by the use of pads has seen the recent rise to prevalence of the hallowed knee-bar?
I still remember being shown the wonders of the heel-toe cam by Paul Savage on the DR boulder wall at GCC...
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As people have said, it's an equipment thing. I remember us all using a folded beer towel strapped to the leg to get a kneebar in on Chimes. Trouble was the skinnier your legs, the less it worked, the more it hurt and the more the thing slipped off rendering the bar pretty crap. Then Malcolm flashed it without the kneebar and we shook our heads and went back to Powerband.
So people became more inventive and made better pads using old shoes etc and kneebars became more effective and now 5.10 have gone a step further and made something specifically designed for the technique. It's no surprise that more opportunities to use the kneebar arise when you have equipment deigned for that purpose.
The same goes for heels. It's not as if heel hooking was invented recently either but as shoes have become better and better the number of places you can use a heel to effect becomes greater. We joke about faggotry and cheating (and of course anyone using a heel or toehook ;) on a board should be shot) but it's just that a lot of heel use nowadays wouldn't have been possible in a pair of Arsolo Runouts. I used to think I was just shit at heel hooks when I returned to climbing and saw the amount of heel use going on. Then I got some decent shoes and realised it wasn't that hard to learn (not sure how this will work now I have a heel full of metal but still....).
Actually as GCW mentions egyptians the same rules apply. I remember when the drop knee became big news and again it was all to do with improvement in shoes = being able to stand on smaller stuff and twist in with the outside edge without your clumpy toed Fire popping off (before people go on about what Jerry / Johnny etc did in shit shoes I'm talking about improvements for the majority).
This is just progress, it doesn't mean that old skoolers didn't see or attempt the techniques it's just that the kit for doing so is way better nowadays. So as the kit gets better people practice the techniques more and get more inventive about how they climb. It's all good and if it means that some things become easier, so what. If it's a route the grade might change and if it's a problem you have an eliminate/original version and an easier/new version. It also means a lot of new things get climbed that would have been impossible / 3 grades harder and not done for years. Progress.
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I think some things are obvious eg crimping. Others, like knee bars may not occur to people unless told about them.
Crimping was a learned technique for me; even now, I have to consciously think "thumbs!" to engage the crimp and feel a flood of renewed strength just as my open grip is slipping. Knee-bars, knee-scums, heel hooks are instinctive for me - I often accidentally fall into them.
I suspect this is because I'm a lanky git. My long thin fingers don't naturally form a crimp very well but my long, boney legs often fortuitously wedge on protrusions. For me to physically fit in a position whilst using the same footholds as a shorter person, I often have to heel-hook a hold that is normally toed - just a simple matter of accommodating leg-length without becoming uncomfortably bunched.
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As people have said, it's an equipment thing.
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Progress.
Nicely put. I find most things like this come naturally - if you watch monkeys climbing they often use climbing 'techniques' like lay-backing, knee-barring or crimping, and I'd be if anyone had given them detailed instructions on what to do. The gear just makes little bits of technique count for more.
Actually having said that about the monkeys, perhaps they do read technique articles: quite a few seem to inhabit the other channel so maybe they pay attention to the stuff on there?
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I suspect this is because I'm a lanky git.
That's the opposite of my experience as a lanky git - crimping seems fairly intuitive to me, whereas heels and knees are very much something I've had to learn.
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I suspect this is because I'm a lanky git.
That's the opposite of my experience as a lanky git - crimping seems fairly intuitive to me, whereas heels and knees are very much something I've had to learn.
Wow! As a lanky git I find knee bars very intuitive and have had to learn crimping and heels. Aren't we all different. :o
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Perhaps because its got bugger all to do with your stature and more to do with how you think/visualise/see holds/routes/opportunities for knee-bars/rests.
I frequently find quick sneaky knee-bars on the low-grade trad routes I climb and enjoy using them for the sheer fun of taking both hands off (e.g. Eros at Millstone has one)....
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2523/3925593703_9a7df5b594_z.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/slackline/3925593703/)
Fooling around! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/slackline/3925593703/#) by slack---line (http://www.flickr.com/people/slackline/), on Flickr
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Knee bars? Old skool!
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1256/1468918755_aed8cb7bdd.jpg)
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1128/1396635419_1e1aaf483a_n.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/68805226@N00/1396635419/)
Relaxing in Font 2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/68805226@N00/1396635419/#) by GCW666 (http://www.flickr.com/people/68805226@N00/), on Flickr
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Heel hooks? Old Skool!
(http://unfinishade.typepad.com/.a/6a01156f63cad4970c014e5f361cbd970c-800wi)
The adoption of non-intuitive techniques has been greatly facilitated by cheap video technology and the internet.
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I can remember flashing a route at shongweni dam in about 1995 and finding a perfect knee bar rest under an overlap that none of the locals had discovered and they couldn't believe it was possible. I had a huge graze from slowly sliding out of it though, shorts we're not ideal a pad would have been brilliant. I have become a bit of a master of faggotry over the years to compensate for my kitten like strength
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Knee bars? Old skool!
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1128/1396635419_1e1aaf483a_n.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/68805226@N00/1396635419/)
Relaxing in Font 2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/68805226@N00/1396635419/#) by GCW666 (http://www.flickr.com/people/68805226@N00/), on Flickr
:lol: Your knee "bar" is looking rather empty there.
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I think it was probably Johnny who brought the heel hook to the masses on videos such as Gogarth and Stone Monkey. Graham Hoey on Flying butress direct in the 89 Stanage guide comes to mind.
As for knee bars, I was certainly using them on things like Banana Finger Direct way back. IIRC think fibre pile fleece trousers created the most friction.
Didn't I see a photo of someone on the Rasp at higger with a hands off rest between practically every move.
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Knee bars? Old skool!
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1128/1396635419_1e1aaf483a_n.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/68805226@N00/1396635419/)
Relaxing in Font 2 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/68805226@N00/1396635419/#) by GCW666 (http://www.flickr.com/people/68805226@N00/), on Flickr
:lol: Your knee "bar" is looking rather empty there.
Superb - just got it... (slow)
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I think that we would have gotten to knee-nirvana far sooner if the advent of bolts sport climbing hadn't coincided with one unfortunate thing: lycra. Must be the worst material in the world for employing knee-trickery.
Old school tweed monkeys squirming up wide cracks have surely been at this for 100 years plus.
Re: knees and being a lank (which I am): I love crimping, but my A2s do not, and I also love the knee-bars and scums. I have one of those 5.10 jobbies and it's amazing, even for trad:
@ 1.13
Got Any Rizlas, Mate? on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/46577239)
Also, jeans are great on sticky rock for the lanks of the world. Think front cover of Hard Grit.
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Thinking about routes where kneepads can / will make a real difference, Divided Years has a couple of useful knee scum affairs which certainly help, it's been climbed with jeans and also a knee pad. Things move on, beta gets refined. Maybe we'll all be talcing ourselves into full stealth rubber suits in 10 years, then doing roly-polies up the Etive Slabs and Obsession Fatale.
I think you could probably get a full no hands on this route with a proper kneepad @ 2.10, which would definitely take a french grade off the difficulty:
The Thing In The Forest on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/40447247)
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You don't see much of this these days:
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9959/figureof4.jpg (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9959/figureof4.jpg)
I guess dynoing has made it redundant in most situations. Still, there must be some circumstances in which it's the ideal
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You don't see much of this these days:
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9959/figureof4.jpg (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9959/figureof4.jpg)
I guess dynoing has made it redundant in most situations. Still, there must be some circumstances in which it's the ideal
I've done them a couple of times at the wall (instead of stupid dyno's usually) and have had the odd enquiry as to wtf I am doing ;)
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I made good use of one on a prob at the wall and half the people had never seen one and the other half dismissed it as old school. They wer all doing the same move as an slap and having varied success depending on strength and reach.
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Maybe all these nu-skool adoptees of the art bought a proper old-skool book to learn from:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8031/8047370475_9b46e86356_c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ijt/8047370475)
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You don't see much of this these days:
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9959/figureof4.jpg (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/9959/figureof4.jpg)
I guess dynoing has made it redundant in most situations. Still, there must be some circumstances in which it's the ideal
The french downgraded Chouca for an ascent with a figure 4 :lol:
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I used to always use figure-4s on a problem at the Berghaus Wall in Newcastle (a big reach at the stepped overhang near the door if you're a fellow ex-denizen). Never used one in earnest outside though. Short, flexible types often use one to rest at the wobbly block on the CYL traverse but it feels more trouble than it's worth for me (that said my inability to push on past there might force a rethink).
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Didn't I see a photo of someone on the Rasp at higger with a hands off rest between practically every move.
I think johnny sticks one in or something on best forgotten art, when he's soloing in trainers.
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There's this one:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=56240 (http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=56240)
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Nope - the one I saw was in a mag and was one of those fancy ones where there appears to be one belayer that hasn't moved, but the leader is photoed about 12 times all the way up (you get a lot snowboard shots in a similar vain)
He's got a hands off in every shot.
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Ok - just found it - not quite every shot :-[
Its a Dan Arkle shot in Climber Feb 2012 (cant find it on the web), I'll scan it possibly.
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(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8029/8049646679_ab5259389b.jpg)
Photo Dan Arkle / www.danarkle.com (http://www.danarkle.com)
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:2thumbsup: Knee-Bar Nirvana!
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(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8029/8049646679_ab5259389b.jpg)
Photo Dan Arkle / www.danarkle.com (http://www.danarkle.com)
Man, bothered by wasps
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(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8029/8049646679_ab5259389b.jpg)
Photo Dan Arkle / www.danarkle.com (http://www.danarkle.com)
Love it. Perhaps there should be a competition to find the grit route with the most independent knee-bars on it.
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Am I the only one who find the 5.10 knee-pad almost useless? I get better kneebars with regular jeans, and jeans also don't work themself loose when climbing.
I am ridiculously inflexible and often prefer using knees to high stepping. Can't see that becoming a trend though...
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Didn't Jerry solve that roof route project in the States with a toe hook back in the day? Anyways, is it just me giving up smoking or is this all a bit UKC?
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It is you giving up smoking.
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Am I the only one who find the 5.10 knee-pad almost useless? I get better kneebars with regular jeans, and jeans also don't work themself loose when climbing.
How low are you wearing it? The 5.10s work best worn quite high - if you're not bleeding foron the couple of inches above your kneecap (leg bent) then its probably too low. Other home made options work better when you nwed to wear it low (e.g. Stu's one). Hopefully they'll sort this whenever they make.version 2
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Well, the 5.10pad is totally impossible to wear low (which would be very useful) , so of course I wear it high. It still doesn't fit, maybe it is the shape of my legs.
Reminds me of the first generation of Rock Empire and Ocun hand-jammies/crack glove. Good idea to save on tape but totally useless for climbing. Now, a few product cycles later, they are as good as tape gloves.
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Reminds me of the first generation of Rock Empire and Ocun hand-jammies/crack glove. Good idea to save on tape but totally useless for climbing.
Conversely, I know of at least 2 moves which are only possible for me (with the kneebar method) with the 5.10 pad (bare legs, trousers, neoprene, Cava pads and Stu's mum's pad all having failed).
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I find you really have to play about with height and tightness and pulling the right amount of slack through your trousers so you're not too restricted. I'm currently trying a boulder problem that requires one on each leg.
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I'm currently trying a boulder problem that requires one on each leg.
What and where? I'm keen..
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I'm currently trying a boulder problem that requires one on each leg.
What and where? I'm keen..
Keen for the 2nd ascent ? ;) I'll let you know when i do it, you'll love it. Ironically my recent route project needed two kneepads too. What did we do without them. I can't climb anything these days without £200 of rubber strapped to my body
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plus some expensive knee pads and rock shoes.
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plus some expensive knee pads and rock shoes.
£400 or rubber 8)
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Gimme a clue. Orme? Mountains? Surely there's nothing new in the cave at less than about 8B?
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Gimme a clue. Orme? Mountains? Surely there's nothing new in the cave at less than about 8B?
Llandudno :-*
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I can't climb anything these days without £200 of rubber strapped to my body
Does that include that mask with all the zips?
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Flatanger video @2:18 (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,14977.msg378383.html#msg378383) - Adam appears to be using a knee bar against his own wrist.
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Flatanger video @2:18 (http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,14977.msg378383.html#msg378383) - Adam appears to be using a knee bar against his own wrist.
Must have been watching the Wideboyz crack skills classes where anything goes just to hold you in place.